<!--QuoteBegin-UZi+Mar 29 2004, 07:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UZi @ Mar 29 2004, 07:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Mar 29 2004, 08:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Mar 29 2004, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing is, rebellion is well and fine back when we had a chance, but if there was any kind of revolution about to even START here in the US the military would execute everyone involved and we wouldn't have that 5 or 6 month boat ride to prepare for it... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> not really Doomie. whos to say their would be defections...and gurillia warfare is a mother****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Except then you would simply be a "terrorist" (even if you made a declaration of war, only attacked military targets, etc.) and then nobody would even listen to your side of the story.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
Wait a min, just how broadly do they define "media"
Like, what if people want to share lots of picture or movies they make or songs their own bands make.
They cant willingly distribute there own stuff?
I have a crap load of mp3s from start up djs and bands that gave there consent for their stuff to be shared to self promote there work. Will this be illegal too?
Go ahead, attack something. If you fail, blame it on poetry so soccer moms can lobby against poetry! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nothing like a show of hypocrisy in American gov't.
I'm not worried, though. This sudden 'Pirate Act' seems like nothing more than a Lieberman. By that, I mean that it's a stupid little pile of legislature that is not likely to be passed. There have been other acts that have been attempted in U.S. govt that are like the Pirate Act. One of them would give the RIAA full privilege to completely format your hard drive remotely if mp3s were found on it. Of course, it was never passed, because it was unconstitutional. (Search and Seizure amendment)
The American government is clearly boosted by the overwhelming success of the banning of controvercial commodedies in the past, like prohibtion and the war on drugs.
In the defence of the music industry, it is a frustrating time to be in that buisness, which seems to be looming at the edge of distruction for all aspects asside from the actual recording and making of music. Selling music in CD format is becoming increasingly less profitable and the industry is having trouble meeting its past profit margins through other means.
As for P2P filesharing, I think we can be fairly confident that it is safe, expecially in its more innocent forms. Actually trying to limit p2p would be somewhat akin to passing laws demanding that the ocean remaines 100 meters from its current shoreline at all times, its so intigrated into the internet it would be all but impossible to remove.
<!--QuoteBegin-DOOManiac+Mar 29 2004, 02:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Mar 29 2004, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember why we had the American Revolution in the first place? Taxation without representation... I think its time for another one... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I like you a lot right now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the defence of the music industry, it is a frustrating time to be in that buisness, which seems to be looming at the edge of distruction for all aspects asside from the actual recording and making of music. Selling music in CD format is becoming increasingly less profitable and the industry is having trouble meeting its past profit margins through other means.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats their problem, not the government's. If they can't meet their profit margins then they should change the way they do business, not bribe poloticians to write laws to force the market into their hands.
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again.
BTW, this is y QotD for today, anyone know where its from (It is relevant to some discussion going on in here)?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will be forced to ask yourself how many civil rights you will give up to feel safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats their problem, not the government's. If they can't meet their profit margins then they should change the way they do business, not bribe poloticians to write laws to force the market into their hands.
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I absolutly agree with you, but I still want to advocate for the human cost. Members of the record companies, press operators, lawyers, finacialists are effectively facing the real possibility of losing thier carreers simply because the general public can't be bothered to pay for music. I guess I'm kindof trying to get my cake and eat it too here, but I think it is important to realize that the inconviniances that we are being caused are essentially the attemts of people to simply hold thier jobs.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 30 2004, 03:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 30 2004, 03:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats their problem, not the government's. If they can't meet their profit margins then they should change the way they do business, not bribe poloticians to write laws to force the market into their hands.
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I absolutly agree with you, but I still want to advocate for the human cost. Members of the record companies, press operators, lawyers, finacialists are effectively facing the real possibility of losing thier carreers simply because the general public can't be bothered to pay for music. I guess I'm kindof trying to get my cake and eat it too here, but I think it is important to realize that the inconviniances that we are being caused are essentially the attemts of people to simply hold thier jobs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, job loss sucks, but freedom loss sucks more IMO.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 30 2004, 02:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 30 2004, 02:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BTW, this is y QotD for today, anyone know where its from (It is relevant to some discussion going on in here)?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will be forced to ask yourself how many civil rights you will give up to feel safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh god I know where that is from...argh *thinks*
I rememeber hearing this...but where? Ah jesus....free virtual cookie if you can figure it out.
Damn you lol
Hmm, now I remember I think. I heard it from DOOManiac a while ago and I believe it was from some news media website. -I think-
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited March 2004
ok, yall seem to be missing something.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats their problem, not the government's. If they can't meet their profit margins then they should change the way they do business, not bribe poloticians to write laws to force the market into their hands.
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First up the standard Fanbase still comes from radio, and the RIAA still controls that, that aint my point though.
People ARE NOT CUTTING OUT THE MIDDLE MAN! They are STEALING FROM HIM!
This is kinda like saying: "Those rash of diamond thefts are the stores fault, the police shouldn't handel them. After all The diamond manufacturers are still getting their revenue"
No, It is the gov't's JOB to uphold the law, and what people are doing (downloading movies/music/games/apps) is illegal.
Yes, this is a silly way to go about trying to do something about this (as BT is used for things like Distro distribution, and for underground music). Just remember, the gov't SHOULD be doing sometihng (unless you don't think the gov't should fight crime, at wich point I will come over and cave your skull in b/c I can, after all It isn't the gov't's job to stop me).
yarrrrrr
/me shakes head.
Oh, and if this law does get passed, then they will eventualy nab some one who has nothing illegal, and the law will be repealed (b/c those people who have 2k+ Things for share that are NOT illegal, are those people looking to pick a fight with the RIAA/Gov't)
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 30 2004, 08:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 30 2004, 08:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I absolutly agree with you, but I still want to advocate for the human cost. Members of the record companies, press operators, lawyers, finacialists are effectively facing the real possibility of losing thier carreers simply because the general public can't be bothered to pay for music. I guess I'm kindof trying to get my cake and eat it too here, but I think it is important to realize that the inconviniances that we are being caused are essentially the attemts of people to simply hold thier jobs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "And in other news, the local communities of hunter-gatherers demonstrated today against the ongoing transformation of wild forest into farmland, claiming that the farmers endangered their industry." Progress has always led to the death of certain industries - but also to the advent of new ones. Who says that those "press operators, lawyers, finacialists" won't get jobs with iTunes , AllofMP3, and so on?
--
On the tangent of artists and their income, I did some research on that subject since I started helping a friend with his E-mag (<a href='http://www.subcult.de' target='_blank'>Click if you speak German and like good music.</a>). Tours are really the only serious source of income for artists in contract with a big label: While the CDs we buy in record stores only earn them a few fractions of a percent of the revenues, every piece of merch sold on tour is getting completely to them once they have paid a credit back to the label, which usually finances all shows in advance. If you really want to support a band, buy a T-Shirt in their merch booth. Claiming that artists are going bankrupt because of P2P is ridiculous - the crowds on shows usually consist of people who've already heard the music, <i>any</i> kind of its distribution, be that CD sales, radio, music TV, listening booths, elevator music, or P2P, is thus advertisement and positive for the artists.
[edit]Oh, and for the record, I <i>buy</i> two to five CDs each month, so I'm not rationalizing here.[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin-Paranoia-2MB+Mar 30 2004, 04:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Paranoia-2MB @ Mar 30 2004, 04:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 30 2004, 02:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 30 2004, 02:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BTW, this is y QotD for today, anyone know where its from (It is relevant to some discussion going on in here)?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will be forced to ask yourself how many civil rights you will give up to feel safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh god I know where that is from...argh *thinks*
I rememeber hearing this...but where? Ah jesus....free virtual cookie if you can figure it out.
Damn you lol
Hmm, now I remember I think. I heard it from DOOManiac a while ago and I believe it was from some news media website. -I think- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Um no, not really. And its not from a movie either. Heres annother (paraphrased) quote to help with the googling:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will know your enemy, they'll be the ones aresting and imprisoning you without due process.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And annother big hint: Even though it doesn't have much to do with the RIAA, it does have to do with the erosion of civil liberties and the result of that erosion.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
skulk, take a look at my post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 30 2004, 10:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 30 2004, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Mar 30 2004, 08:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Mar 30 2004, 08:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I absolutly agree with you, but I still want to advocate for the human cost. Members of the record companies, press operators, lawyers, finacialists are effectively facing the real possibility of losing thier carreers simply because the general public can't be bothered to pay for music. I guess I'm kindof trying to get my cake and eat it too here, but I think it is important to realize that the inconviniances that we are being caused are essentially the attemts of people to simply hold thier jobs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "And in other news, the local communities of hunter-gatherers demonstrated today against the ongoing transformation of wild forest into farmland, claiming that the farmers endangered their industry." Progress has always led to the death of certain industries - but also to the advent of new ones. Who says that those "press operators, lawyers, finacialists" won't get jobs with iTunes , AllofMP3, and so on?
--
On the tangent of artists and their income, I did some research on that subject since I started helping a friend with his E-mag (<a href='http://www.subcult.de' target='_blank'>Click if you speak German and like good music.</a>). Tours are really the only serious source of income for artists in contract with a big label: While the CDs we buy in record stores only earn them a few fractions of a percent of the revenues, every piece of merch sold on tour is getting completely to them once they have paid a credit back to the label, which usually finances all shows in advance. If you really want to support a band, buy a T-Shirt in their merch booth. Claiming that artists are going bankrupt because of P2P is ridiculous - the crowds on shows usually consist of people who've already heard the music, <i>any</i> kind of its distribution, be that CD sales, radio, music TV, listening booths, elevator music, or P2P, is thus advertisement and positive for the artists.
[edit]Oh, and for the record, I <i>buy</i> two to five CDs each month, so I'm not rationalizing here.[/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep that's what I've been saying all along. The RIAA straight up lies about their loss of income, because tours make up for nearly all of the artist revenue and their record labels just go ahead and take a nice chunk of that due to the "slave" contracts (look into it, record contracts are pure evil).
They keep tooting the victim horn but they have been overcharging the costumer at the store for years. You know last time I bought a CD was 6 years ago, it was a Green Day CD brand new for 9.95 from a music store. Coiencidence that as soon as CD prices started going up mp3 sharing and CD burning also increased? Well I haven't bought a CD in 6 years....
Anyhow, I didn't buy music BEFORE P2P, and to be honest I wouldn't start buying it AFTER P2P.
Second, once something like this becomes law, the way is then paved for the next step. You don't know the full content of the proposed act... I mean lets not forget the Patriot Act with its little clause for Patriot II. I mean who's to say that the PIRATE Act (what a great name, I bet you're glad your taxes went to whoever thought it up) doesn't have a paragraph 6 subsection 52 that states "If this doesn't work we're moving to plan B, government sponsored internet spam".
<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Mar 30 2004, 01:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Mar 30 2004, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> skulk, take a look at my post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh?..... Oh yeah, you got it, don't know why I didn't see it there... Virtual cookie awarded for your display of internet trivia.
Anyhow, I didn't buy music BEFORE P2P, and to be honest I wouldn't start buying it AFTER P2P.
Second, once something like this becomes law, the way is then paved for the next step. You don't know the full content of the proposed act... I mean lets not forget the Patriot Act with its little clause for Patriot II. I mean who's to say that the PIRATE Act (what a great name, I bet you're glad your taxes went to whoever thought it up) doesn't have a paragraph 6 subsection 52 that states "If this doesn't work we're moving to plan B, government sponsored internet spam". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I concur with pretty much all of these statments.
Despite the fact the RIAA overcharges on CDs (I believe the last time I remember it costs around $3 to make a CD case and all its packaging (single CD), there are much better reasons to download (from MP3 sites and from P2P).
A lot of the music I listen to (despite everone's musical tastes around me) are foreign...from groups that would make such small profit here, it's virtually impossible to acquire the CDs.
In fact the two latest foreign groups I can remember being played are Rammstein and Tatu. Despite how good people think they are, other groups from these respective countries are better in their fields. Especially since I've never heard any Russian versions of Tatu songs played on the radio.
When's the last time you heard Virus or Demo on MTV (another advocacy against MTV for me! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) - and no, not that Hispanic Virus guy. I looked into the CDs...which you can import (and I doubt would work in any CD player I've got) most are out of print for exporting or cost an ungodly amount). [woot Russian techno I can understand little of, but is still cool]
Which also leads to the fact that much of what people download they wouldn't even buy anyway. Either because they lack the money, they want to spend their money on something else, or they find out it sucks. This mostly applies to software, but music can apply too. I have Freelancer on my computer right now (actually it wasn't downloaded, just burned to be given about the dorm for a big lan game). The game's okay, but I would never buy it myself, but I'll use it (mostly for the afforementioned LAN) since it's here.
I will even admit that it is stealing. It's only stealing under a defined copyright law. That's the whole problem though, laws can only be changed if they're challenged - ie the Supreme Court can only declare a law unconstitutional if it gets to Supreme Court and they can't go looking for unconstitutional laws. I feel like I'm droning on and going slightly off subject of why banning peer to peer applications is dumb.
There are more reasons though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 29 2004, 12:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 29 2004, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stuff like this should only show our American members one thing: It's about time you start using your election rights - both active <i>and</i> passive. The 'geek culture' has reached maturity, and is thus a possibly significant voting demographic. Why in hell should you leave internet legislation to old farts when you can do it yourselves? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hence why I'm voting in my next presidental election [which I make the cutoff for by 2 months]
Does anyone know of a GEEK politcal group? if not make one. Id lead, but im too busy trying to fiure out how to take over the world....and playing NS...mostly NS.
The US could ultimatly shut down the internet for the time being, since form my understanding the US goverment runs the cenrtal server of the internet. and other companies just pay to get on it...
But if illigilizaion where to happen, the US would eventualy turn into a comminist country and attempt to take over the world after 10-15 years after that. cept theyw ill leave antartica alone, and australia. I should move to australia.
on a side note, some of the groups out there that care have flooded the internet with MP3 files of thier song with BZZZZ sounds in it.
<!--QuoteBegin-dr.d+Mar 29 2004, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Mar 29 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the kind of crap that is ruining our economy, they put taxes on stuff to avoid loss but at the same time smother the market. What's going to happen to internet sales when they put mandatory sales tax on items you purchase? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody addressed this in the posts from what I read.
There already is a tax for Internet sales in effect in Michigan. It's called Use Tax. I have to pay a portion every year for the purchases I make over the Internet. It's not a lot, usually totalling $8.00, but it does exist.
<!--QuoteBegin-MedHead+Mar 30 2004, 06:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MedHead @ Mar 30 2004, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-dr.d+Mar 29 2004, 03:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Mar 29 2004, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the kind of crap that is ruining our economy, they put taxes on stuff to avoid loss but at the same time smother the market. What's going to happen to internet sales when they put mandatory sales tax on items you purchase? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody addressed this in the posts from what I read.
There already is a tax for Internet sales in effect in Michigan. It's called Use Tax. I have to pay a portion every year for the purchases I make over the Internet. It's not a lot, usually totalling $8.00, but it does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Uuuuugh....Why?
Because each state is to act as its own government. Because of this, state A does not want state B profiting from money made by a citizen in state A who purchases an item in state B. So in order to offset the loss of business by a state A citizen who purchases a state B product, state A charges for all purchases made on the Internet to a business in state B.
I hope I didn't lose anyone, but I think that's the easiest way to explain it.
More reasonable solution would be to compete for the market in you're own state, can't grow strawberries in Alaska? Well then don't gripe when people order them from California.
Anyway my main point is E-commerce is still too new a thing to start smothering with taxes it's just going to capsize the market.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 29 2004, 03:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 29 2004, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stuff like this should only show our American members one thing: It's about time you start using your election rights - both active <i>and</i> passive. The 'geek culture' has reached maturity, and is thus a possibly significant voting demographic. Why in hell should you leave internet legislation to old farts when you can do it yourselves? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The electoral college still controls who is president. Presidents have lost the popular vote, it's happened a few times, actually. Not to say your vote doesn't have any meaning, and I don't want to stir up the wrath of nem here (please spare me!), I'm just saying.
We have indirect control of who is our president; that is, we send members into the electoral college who vote in our stead, so to speak. Most times, they vote the way their state votes... so in a sense you have influence over who's president.
Comments
not really Doomie. whos to say their would be defections...and gurillia warfare is a mother****. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except then you would simply be a "terrorist" (even if you made a declaration of war, only attacked military targets, etc.) and then nobody would even listen to your side of the story.
Like, what if people want to share lots of picture or movies they make or songs their own bands make.
They cant willingly distribute there own stuff?
I have a crap load of mp3s from start up djs and bands that gave there consent for their stuff to be shared to self promote there work. Will this be illegal too?
Quaunaut: Black Isle is in Canada?!
I'm not worried, though. This sudden 'Pirate Act' seems like nothing more than a Lieberman. By that, I mean that it's a stupid little pile of legislature that is not likely to be passed. There have been other acts that have been attempted in U.S. govt that are like the Pirate Act. One of them would give the RIAA full privilege to completely format your hard drive remotely if mp3s were found on it. Of course, it was never passed, because it was unconstitutional. (Search and Seizure amendment)
In the defence of the music industry, it is a frustrating time to be in that buisness, which seems to be looming at the edge of distruction for all aspects asside from the actual recording and making of music. Selling music in CD format is becoming increasingly less profitable and the industry is having trouble meeting its past profit margins through other means.
As for P2P filesharing, I think we can be fairly confident that it is safe, expecially in its more innocent forms. Actually trying to limit p2p would be somewhat akin to passing laws demanding that the ocean remaines 100 meters from its current shoreline at all times, its so intigrated into the internet it would be all but impossible to remove.
Remember why we had the American Revolution in the first place? Taxation without representation... I think its time for another one... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like you a lot right now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<=== Moderate Socialist
Thats their problem, not the government's. If they can't meet their profit margins then they should change the way they do business, not bribe poloticians to write laws to force the market into their hands.
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again.
BTW, this is y QotD for today, anyone know where its from (It is relevant to some discussion going on in here)?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will be forced to ask yourself how many civil rights you will give up to feel safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutly agree with you, but I still want to advocate for the human cost. Members of the record companies, press operators, lawyers, finacialists are effectively facing the real possibility of losing thier carreers simply because the general public can't be bothered to pay for music. I guess I'm kindof trying to get my cake and eat it too here, but I think it is important to realize that the inconviniances that we are being caused are essentially the attemts of people to simply hold thier jobs.
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutly agree with you, but I still want to advocate for the human cost. Members of the record companies, press operators, lawyers, finacialists are effectively facing the real possibility of losing thier carreers simply because the general public can't be bothered to pay for music. I guess I'm kindof trying to get my cake and eat it too here, but I think it is important to realize that the inconviniances that we are being caused are essentially the attemts of people to simply hold thier jobs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, job loss sucks, but freedom loss sucks more IMO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will be forced to ask yourself how many civil rights you will give up to feel safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh god
I know where that is from...argh
*thinks*
I rememeber hearing this...but where?
Ah jesus....free virtual cookie if you can figure it out.
Damn you lol
Hmm, now I remember I think. I heard it from DOOManiac a while ago and I believe it was from some news media website. -I think-
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats their problem, not the government's. If they can't meet their profit margins then they should change the way they do business, not bribe poloticians to write laws to force the market into their hands.
Fact is that the reality of the market is changing. People can now cut out the middleman, artists can still play gigs (where the real money is at, as I understand it) but they nolonger have to go through the RIAA to get a fanbase. The RIAA, in typical corporate fasion, refuses to accept that things change and so uses its influence to force itself back in the middle again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First up the standard Fanbase still comes from radio, and the RIAA still controls that, that aint my point though.
People ARE NOT CUTTING OUT THE MIDDLE MAN!
They are STEALING FROM HIM!
This is kinda like saying: "Those rash of diamond thefts are the stores fault, the police shouldn't handel them. After all The diamond manufacturers are still getting their revenue"
No, It is the gov't's JOB to uphold the law, and what people are doing (downloading movies/music/games/apps) is illegal.
Yes, this is a silly way to go about trying to do something about this (as BT is used for things like Distro distribution, and for underground music). Just remember, the gov't SHOULD be doing sometihng (unless you don't think the gov't should fight crime, at wich point I will come over and cave your skull in b/c I can, after all It isn't the gov't's job to stop me).
yarrrrrr
/me shakes head.
Oh, and if this law does get passed, then they will eventualy nab some one who has nothing illegal, and the law will be repealed (b/c those people who have 2k+ Things for share that are NOT illegal, are those people looking to pick a fight with the RIAA/Gov't)
oh, and its John Titor (the time travel guy)
[edit] yar Titor, not tito <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> [/edit]
"And in other news, the local communities of hunter-gatherers demonstrated today against the ongoing transformation of wild forest into farmland, claiming that the farmers endangered their industry."
Progress has always led to the death of certain industries - but also to the advent of new ones. Who says that those "press operators, lawyers, finacialists" won't get jobs with iTunes , AllofMP3, and so on?
--
On the tangent of artists and their income, I did some research on that subject since I started helping a friend with his E-mag (<a href='http://www.subcult.de' target='_blank'>Click if you speak German and like good music.</a>).
Tours are really the only serious source of income for artists in contract with a big label: While the CDs we buy in record stores only earn them a few fractions of a percent of the revenues, every piece of merch sold on tour is getting completely to them once they have paid a credit back to the label, which usually finances all shows in advance. If you really want to support a band, buy a T-Shirt in their merch booth.
Claiming that artists are going bankrupt because of P2P is ridiculous - the crowds on shows usually consist of people who've already heard the music, <i>any</i> kind of its distribution, be that CD sales, radio, music TV, listening booths, elevator music, or P2P, is thus advertisement and positive for the artists.
[edit]Oh, and for the record, I <i>buy</i> two to five CDs each month, so I'm not rationalizing here.[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will be forced to ask yourself how many civil rights you will give up to feel safe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh god
I know where that is from...argh
*thinks*
I rememeber hearing this...but where?
Ah jesus....free virtual cookie if you can figure it out.
Damn you lol
Hmm, now I remember I think. I heard it from DOOManiac a while ago and I believe it was from some news media website. -I think- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um no, not really. And its not from a movie either. Heres annother (paraphrased) quote to help with the googling:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will know your enemy, they'll be the ones aresting and imprisoning you without due process.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And annother big hint: Even though it doesn't have much to do with the RIAA, it does have to do with the erosion of civil liberties and the result of that erosion.
"And in other news, the local communities of hunter-gatherers demonstrated today against the ongoing transformation of wild forest into farmland, claiming that the farmers endangered their industry."
Progress has always led to the death of certain industries - but also to the advent of new ones. Who says that those "press operators, lawyers, finacialists" won't get jobs with iTunes , AllofMP3, and so on?
--
On the tangent of artists and their income, I did some research on that subject since I started helping a friend with his E-mag (<a href='http://www.subcult.de' target='_blank'>Click if you speak German and like good music.</a>).
Tours are really the only serious source of income for artists in contract with a big label: While the CDs we buy in record stores only earn them a few fractions of a percent of the revenues, every piece of merch sold on tour is getting completely to them once they have paid a credit back to the label, which usually finances all shows in advance. If you really want to support a band, buy a T-Shirt in their merch booth.
Claiming that artists are going bankrupt because of P2P is ridiculous - the crowds on shows usually consist of people who've already heard the music, <i>any</i> kind of its distribution, be that CD sales, radio, music TV, listening booths, elevator music, or P2P, is thus advertisement and positive for the artists.
[edit]Oh, and for the record, I <i>buy</i> two to five CDs each month, so I'm not rationalizing here.[/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep that's what I've been saying all along. The RIAA straight up lies about their loss of income, because tours make up for nearly all of the artist revenue and their record labels just go ahead and take a nice chunk of that due to the "slave" contracts (look into it, record contracts are pure evil).
They keep tooting the victim horn but they have been overcharging the costumer at the store for years. You know last time I bought a CD was 6 years ago, it was a Green Day CD brand new for 9.95 from a music store. Coiencidence that as soon as CD prices started going up mp3 sharing and CD burning also increased? Well I haven't bought a CD in 6 years....
Noob Congress! EJECT EJECT!!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best quote ever.
Anyhow, I didn't buy music BEFORE P2P, and to be honest I wouldn't start buying it AFTER P2P.
Second, once something like this becomes law, the way is then paved for the next step. You don't know the full content of the proposed act... I mean lets not forget the Patriot Act with its little clause for Patriot II. I mean who's to say that the PIRATE Act (what a great name, I bet you're glad your taxes went to whoever thought it up) doesn't have a paragraph 6 subsection 52 that states "If this doesn't work we're moving to plan B, government sponsored internet spam".
Huh?..... Oh yeah, you got it, don't know why I didn't see it there... Virtual cookie awarded for your display of internet trivia.
Noob Congress! EJECT EJECT!!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best quote ever.
Anyhow, I didn't buy music BEFORE P2P, and to be honest I wouldn't start buying it AFTER P2P.
Second, once something like this becomes law, the way is then paved for the next step. You don't know the full content of the proposed act... I mean lets not forget the Patriot Act with its little clause for Patriot II. I mean who's to say that the PIRATE Act (what a great name, I bet you're glad your taxes went to whoever thought it up) doesn't have a paragraph 6 subsection 52 that states "If this doesn't work we're moving to plan B, government sponsored internet spam". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I concur with pretty much all of these statments.
Despite the fact the RIAA overcharges on CDs (I believe the last time I remember it costs around $3 to make a CD case and all its packaging (single CD), there are much better reasons to download (from MP3 sites and from P2P).
A lot of the music I listen to (despite everone's musical tastes around me) are foreign...from groups that would make such small profit here, it's virtually impossible to acquire the CDs.
In fact the two latest foreign groups I can remember being played are Rammstein and Tatu. Despite how good people think they are, other groups from these respective countries are better in their fields. Especially since I've never heard any Russian versions of Tatu songs played on the radio.
When's the last time you heard Virus or Demo on MTV (another advocacy against MTV for me! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) - and no, not that Hispanic Virus guy. I looked into the CDs...which you can import (and I doubt would work in any CD player I've got) most are out of print for exporting or cost an ungodly amount). [woot Russian techno I can understand little of, but is still cool]
Which also leads to the fact that much of what people download they wouldn't even buy anyway. Either because they lack the money, they want to spend their money on something else, or they find out it sucks. This mostly applies to software, but music can apply too. I have Freelancer on my computer right now (actually it wasn't downloaded, just burned to be given about the dorm for a big lan game). The game's okay, but I would never buy it myself, but I'll use it (mostly for the afforementioned LAN) since it's here.
I will even admit that it is stealing. It's only stealing under a defined copyright law. That's the whole problem though, laws can only be changed if they're challenged - ie the Supreme Court can only declare a law unconstitutional if it gets to Supreme Court and they can't go looking for unconstitutional laws. I feel like I'm droning on and going slightly off subject of why banning peer to peer applications is dumb.
There are more reasons though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> .
The 'geek culture' has reached maturity, and is thus a possibly significant voting demographic. Why in hell should you leave internet legislation to old farts when you can do it yourselves? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hence why I'm voting in my next presidental election [which I make the cutoff for by 2 months]
ANYONE BUT BUSH 2004
if not make one. Id lead, but im too busy trying to fiure out how to take over the world....and playing NS...mostly NS.
The US could ultimatly shut down the internet for the time being, since form my understanding the US goverment runs the cenrtal server of the internet. and other companies just pay to get on it...
But if illigilizaion where to happen, the US would eventualy turn into a comminist country and attempt to take over the world after 10-15 years after that.
cept theyw ill leave antartica alone, and australia. I should move to australia.
on a side note, some of the groups out there that care have flooded the internet with MP3 files of thier song with BZZZZ sounds in it.
Nobody addressed this in the posts from what I read.
There already is a tax for Internet sales in effect in Michigan. It's called Use Tax. I have to pay a portion every year for the purchases I make over the Internet. It's not a lot, usually totalling $8.00, but it does exist.
Nobody addressed this in the posts from what I read.
There already is a tax for Internet sales in effect in Michigan. It's called Use Tax. I have to pay a portion every year for the purchases I make over the Internet. It's not a lot, usually totalling $8.00, but it does exist. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uuuuugh....Why?
I hope I didn't lose anyone, but I think that's the easiest way to explain it.
More reasonable solution would be to compete for the market in you're own state, can't grow strawberries in Alaska? Well then don't gripe when people order them from California.
Anyway my main point is E-commerce is still too new a thing to start smothering with taxes it's just going to capsize the market.
The 'geek culture' has reached maturity, and is thus a possibly significant voting demographic. Why in hell should you leave internet legislation to old farts when you can do it yourselves? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The electoral college still controls who is president. Presidents have lost the popular vote, it's happened a few times, actually. Not to say your vote doesn't have any meaning, and I don't want to stir up the wrath of nem here (please spare me!), I'm just saying.
We have indirect control of who is our president; that is, we send members into the electoral college who vote in our stead, so to speak. Most times, they vote the way their state votes... so in a sense you have influence over who's president.
/me runs and hides
That said, who can claim that sometime in the future I won't buy all those "acquired" D&D sourcebooks?