Espionage Compared With Splinter Cell Multiplayer
DOOManiac
Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">your thoughts and opinions wanted!</div>To those who don't already know, Quad and I are working on a mod called <a href='http://www.espionagemod.com' target='_blank'>Espionage</a>, a stealth based multiplayer mod. Right now it looks like we're going with HL2 engine but we'll go with whatever is best for the project.
I've <a href='http://www.espionagemod.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20' target='_blank'>made a post</a> over at the <a href='http://www.espionagemod.com/forums/' target='_blank'>Espionage Forums</a> that I would like some feedback on. Feel free to register and post there if you wish, as that thread I'll be hanging on to for future reference. But if you don't want to bother with registering that's fine.
For those that remember the Stealthmod prototype, Espionage is the actual project it was a prototype for. We always wanted to keep the names seperate so people wouldn't go "eww that stealthmod thing sucked for hl1, no reason to play it now!" when we released Espionage. :P
Begin Copy & Paste:
Well now that the Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow demo is out and I've had a bit of time to play it, I thought I'd give my thoughts on how it will affect the future of Espionage. For those not too familiar with what Espionage is, we aren't simply a Splinter Cell or Metal Gear clone (though we'd be liars if we didn't admit being inspired/influenced by both). We're going for our own unique slice of the stealth game pie. mmm pie...
I'm very pleased by the prospects ahead! Already the demo has proven beyond question that stealth based multiplayer works and can be damned fun to boot.
What sort of competition will Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow Multiplayer pose towards Espionage? After playing it I can definately say there will be a big difference in how it will be played. SC:PT shines due to its small games: Small amount of players in a relatively small map. On the other hand Espionage has always been meant for massive (64 players if the engine we choose can handle it) games on giganormous maps (think Far Cry jungle demo size, if not bigger). Since we were never going to be direct copies of either Splinter Cell or Metal Gear, I think there will definately be room for us to make our own mark and hopefully gain a share of the mod community.
<b>Ideas we already had that were reinforced (proven to be good ideas) by the Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow Multiplayer demo:</b>
- Hiding in shadows = win. No transparency required!
- Being able to complete a mission without the Attackers/Spy necessarily attacking/killing someone on the other team can work and is still fun!
- Gadgets make the game unpredictable, adds variety.
- Passive Security (cameras, alarms, etc.) is essential for Defenders/Mercs.
- Teamplay should be optional, though its much better with teamplay than without. Mercs/Defenders need more teamplay than Spies/Attackers.
<b>New things from Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow Multiplayer that we'd like to incorporate into Espionage:</b>
- Climbing and other acrobatics. Ziplines, ladders, fences, etc. We need more of this.
- Urban maps. We had a few urban maps planned, but I now think that we should bump that number to up around 50% of our total maps.
- General Security Notices from Passive Security devices on the Mercs/Defender's HUD. This is just a damned good idea to have. Doesn't tell you exactly WHERE the area was breached, just that it was SOMEWHERE. I definately plan on incorporating this into Espionage.
So those are my thoughts. Now what do you guys think? Now that a stealth based multiplayer game is out I want as much feedback as possible in regard to stuff you liked that you'd like to see in Espionage, stuff you that you hated, whatever new ideas you may have, and anything else.
I look forward to your feedback. :)
I've <a href='http://www.espionagemod.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20' target='_blank'>made a post</a> over at the <a href='http://www.espionagemod.com/forums/' target='_blank'>Espionage Forums</a> that I would like some feedback on. Feel free to register and post there if you wish, as that thread I'll be hanging on to for future reference. But if you don't want to bother with registering that's fine.
For those that remember the Stealthmod prototype, Espionage is the actual project it was a prototype for. We always wanted to keep the names seperate so people wouldn't go "eww that stealthmod thing sucked for hl1, no reason to play it now!" when we released Espionage. :P
Begin Copy & Paste:
Well now that the Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow demo is out and I've had a bit of time to play it, I thought I'd give my thoughts on how it will affect the future of Espionage. For those not too familiar with what Espionage is, we aren't simply a Splinter Cell or Metal Gear clone (though we'd be liars if we didn't admit being inspired/influenced by both). We're going for our own unique slice of the stealth game pie. mmm pie...
I'm very pleased by the prospects ahead! Already the demo has proven beyond question that stealth based multiplayer works and can be damned fun to boot.
What sort of competition will Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow Multiplayer pose towards Espionage? After playing it I can definately say there will be a big difference in how it will be played. SC:PT shines due to its small games: Small amount of players in a relatively small map. On the other hand Espionage has always been meant for massive (64 players if the engine we choose can handle it) games on giganormous maps (think Far Cry jungle demo size, if not bigger). Since we were never going to be direct copies of either Splinter Cell or Metal Gear, I think there will definately be room for us to make our own mark and hopefully gain a share of the mod community.
<b>Ideas we already had that were reinforced (proven to be good ideas) by the Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow Multiplayer demo:</b>
- Hiding in shadows = win. No transparency required!
- Being able to complete a mission without the Attackers/Spy necessarily attacking/killing someone on the other team can work and is still fun!
- Gadgets make the game unpredictable, adds variety.
- Passive Security (cameras, alarms, etc.) is essential for Defenders/Mercs.
- Teamplay should be optional, though its much better with teamplay than without. Mercs/Defenders need more teamplay than Spies/Attackers.
<b>New things from Splinter Cell: Pandora Tommorrow Multiplayer that we'd like to incorporate into Espionage:</b>
- Climbing and other acrobatics. Ziplines, ladders, fences, etc. We need more of this.
- Urban maps. We had a few urban maps planned, but I now think that we should bump that number to up around 50% of our total maps.
- General Security Notices from Passive Security devices on the Mercs/Defender's HUD. This is just a damned good idea to have. Doesn't tell you exactly WHERE the area was breached, just that it was SOMEWHERE. I definately plan on incorporating this into Espionage.
So those are my thoughts. Now what do you guys think? Now that a stealth based multiplayer game is out I want as much feedback as possible in regard to stuff you liked that you'd like to see in Espionage, stuff you that you hated, whatever new ideas you may have, and anything else.
I look forward to your feedback. :)
Comments
Although I am assuming you would have a sniper rifle if not... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I love gadgets. Cameras, turrets, mines, lights, sensors, the more gadgets the better in my opinion. Being able to "load out" like in stealthmod and pick a set of gadgets would be the best thing ever.
Good luck, btw.
There is a 20-second "warmup" time. Basically, time for each team to load up and choose their gadgets and weaponry. It could start with maybe...
For attackers, being shuttled to a drop-zone somewhere. In a boat, truck or stealth helicopter. While inside the vehicle, they can move around. Maybe boxes for their gadgets, and lockers for loadout?
For defenders, an alarm would be sounding inside their area of the map. The HUD announces that unidentified individuals are approaching and to gear up. You move through several gates, where there are models of guards behind grates. You get your equipment from them, then there are terminals where you can choose your gadgets.
The distance between the objective and the attacker start would be pretty far, to give time for everyone to finish loading up if they haven't already, and to make a plan and start moving. This also gives time for the defenders to lay traps and get to security rooms.
There is a 20-second "warmup" time. Basically, time for each team to load up and choose their gadgets and weaponry. It could start with maybe...
For attackers, being shuttled to a drop-zone somewhere. In a boat, truck or stealth helicopter. While inside the vehicle, they can move around. Maybe boxes for their gadgets, and lockers for loadout?
For defenders, an alarm would be sounding inside their area of the map. The HUD announces that unidentified individuals are approaching and to gear up. You move through several gates, where there are models of guards behind grates. You get your equipment from them, then there are terminals where you can choose your gadgets.
The distance between the objective and the attacker start would be pretty far, to give time for everyone to finish loading up if they haven't already, and to make a plan and start moving. This also gives time for the defenders to lay traps and get to security rooms. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be pretty sweet, if it was done right.
And as far as flashing something on the HUD, its a neat idea but it would get old after like 10 rounds. Maybe have it check to see how many times its done it and only flash those for nubs :P
I think we discussed this. Dynamic spawn points from planes, boats, etc a la BF1942.
As well as dynamic spawning on the edges of the map, I think I remember. We did a lot of brainstorming for a couple nights straight and came up with some great ideas, too bad I can't remember any of them. Maybe DOOM has a list.
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe instead of the HUD, it could be a voice that comes over the loudspeakers while the alarms blare. Basically... "Unidentified individuals approaching. Please proceed through equipment gates as quickly as possible and prepare for assault." Make it a really sexy voice or something, so that people don't get bored of hearing it.
First off, the urban stuff is GOOD. Just remember: 64 people on a urban map= BAD. VERY FRICKIN BAD.
Have each map have a story to it.
Otherwise...I'd include some extras. The loadout thing is nice...but howabout special abilities for spies also(spies only).
Weapon Specialization: Pistols
-Rifles
-Submachine Guns
-Sniping Weaponry
-Explosives
These specializations would FORCE the user to use ONLY those, but they'd be damned good with em.
Speed Specialization
Strength
Acrobatics
Size(you physically get a smaller model, maybe 3/4ths the size of regular).
Also, much like in SC, make sure you include Night-Vision and Heat Vision. I'd also like to see radio-wave vision(newly implemented. Read up on this at CNN, it reads small-radio frequencies, and tells you where their blasting from). These could all prove fun.
Give the "Guns" team enough firepower to be able to not even think about taking out a spy if the spy is seen. Automatic shotguns and sniper rifles versus people with neoprene suits on. No contest, dead spys. Forces the spys to be played carefully, slowly, and stealthily. None of this sillyness that we have now in the demo, where the spy get's found out, shoots the guard with the tazer, then drops a flashbang at his feet and runs like hell. The spys should be invisable, or they should be dead.
Grappling hooks. Oh hell yeah. The spy's counter to the firepower should be mobility. They should be able to distract and fade into the shadows, then sneak in from somewhere else quickly.
Environmental interaction. EVERYTHING should be able to be used. For example, shoot out that zipline, climb it up to the roof, strafe along the roof, repel down into another window. Easily done with Source.
Vent systems. Floors between floors. Little nooks and crannys for spys to get into that adds to the sneaker element.
More gametypes. Now we have disable the nerve gas and steal the nerve gas. What about kidnapping? Knock out the VIP, drag his unconcious body back to the raft, or something of that nature. Maybe objectives that require coordination between multiple people?
Off to play PT <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
As I posted on your boards, I'll make a map for this mod DOOM, sounds awesome.
~ DarkATi
Good luck, btw. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, good one. When it comes to modding, the Unreal engine is a joke.
The luck is always appreciated, however.
the gadgets and a knife <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But serioulsy. Like someone already mentioned, make the spys
want to be invisible. If a merc sees a spy 1-5 shots = Kill.
The spys shouldnt be able to be professionals at hand to hand
like in SC, but instead only good when attacking from behind.
E.G backstab would be really fun. And remember to not hav infinite
lives, so you people will be afraid of dying instead of just typing kill
in conlsole to get back to the beginning.
And remember. Encourage people to play with a small amount of players.
eg: 4on4 at the very most. SC's 2on2 is perfect IMO.
Like Team Fortress Classic, Hackers could have special weapons. I'm thinking Chaff Grenades. The Hackers could also have the ability, where if a Hacker sneaks into some secruity room (or something) and hacks a computer, it shuts down all passive sercurity for, say, 30 seconds to 5 minutes or something.
However, before all security is shut off, it will alert the gun people of the/a computer being hacked. So the hacker has to get out of there.
BUT...If the hacker stays and hacks the computer again, the hacking process will take much longer, but it will shut down all power (as in, no lights in base! Rebel heaven!) for 30 seconds to 5 minutes, or whatever.
I dont know what you have in mind for the hackers, but those are some suggestions.
is there any way to incorporate a lock on gamma? like a server max? or something similar.. cos it would ruin gameplay really
whee <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS. no springinzee hopinzee
The people should feel they're in a Military facility. This means alarms, flashing red lights, urgent messages over the radio ("SIR THEY'VE TAKEN DOWN THE SCANNERS, WE CAN'T SEE ANYTHING!" it kinda gives the Assault team a sense of Urgency....), etc etc
All that stuff that contributes to being there.
If it helps look at things like SAS assaults for ways that the Spys could get into the facility, eg Boat, paradrop, tunnels.
Remember it'll be both the big things and the little details that will help the mod gain popularity. So pay attention to detail and you'll find that it makes many more people think "Hey wow thats cool!" and it helps build memorable scenes in the gamer.
*Edit*
And I just realized this post pretty much has no relevence to the topic... oh well <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have a crazy thought: Make the gadget system almost a mini-game in itself. I mean you could be able to construct your own traps from components:
Possible sensors (Cause):<ul><li>Proximity sensor,</li><li>Motion sensor,</li><li>Laser line,</li><li>Tripline,</li><li>Pressure pad,</li><li>Reed switch. (For doors and windows.)</li></ul>
Possible devices (Effect):<ul><li>Explosive,</li><li>Tracker tag,</li><li>Floodlight,</li><li>Blaring alarm,</li><li>Killing/incapacitating/disorienting gas release,</li><li>Silent alarm. A message appears on the placer's hud indicating the direction of the trippage,</li><li>EM generator. For disabling the spy's vision modes/gadgets.</li></ul>
Like a prox sensor, set to 3 meters, attached to a stick of jelly. Or a reed switch connected to a disorienting gas release and a silent alarm. You would come running expecting to discover a dazed spy blundering around. The more components it has, the bigger/noisier/brighter/more visible the device is. The devices could be constructed using a drag-n-drop interface in which you snap together the different components to craft your trap.
Imagine being an inexperienced spy heading towards your goal. You slow to a crawl as you pass though a doorway. You here a *tchclik* of a tripline pin coming loose. A floodlight blares at you, dissolving the darkness, and you hear footsteps approaching.
One thing that would be necessary for traps using wire triplines and lasers is some kind of orientation system. Being able to not only choose the surface but to be able to rotate it so the wire/laser points in the direction you want.
Of course the spy would have to have an array of any-trap devices. Like special goggles to spot the lasers and a mirror to sneak past them, a pair of wire-cutters for the triplines, or simply sneaking really slowly past motion or proximity sensors.
Attached is my idea of what the trap crafting screen should look like. BEWARE MY CRAPPY PHOTOSHOP SKILLZORS.
--Scythe--
I just got off a 9 and a half hour shift at work so I'm much too tired to reply to everybody, but I have read them all and greatly appreciate the feedback!
For those that haven't checked, <a href='http://www.espionagemod.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20' target='_blank'>my original thread</a> on Espionage's forums has been busy with replies too, and I gave a lot of responses.
A few things I'd like to touch on before I pass out though:
- About Attackers/Rebels/Spies NOT being masters of close combat: I disagree. I think that if they can get within touching distance of the defenders, the defender is gonna be very lucky to stay alive. The defenders have all kinds of firepower at their disposal, so if they catch the infiltrator he's pretty much dead. But if the spy manages to sneak up on a person, they're as good as dead. Sort of the original idea of marine vs. skulk. Unlike the spies in Splinter Cell, the attackers in Espionage will kill, and they will kill a lot. :) *STAB STAB STAB*
- Defenders will always have something to do (at least as much as possible/reasonable). Nobody wants to play a game that's boring or where you sit around. Since the games are rather large the player can decide if they want to do just patrols, OR if they want to lay traps, OR they want to guard specific areas, OR etc etc etc.
- Customizable gadgets. I don't really like the idea, as it presents a problem on 1) balancing 2) coding 3) teacher players how to use it, and also that's not how it happens in real life. While we aren't a "realism" game, we are going after a certain level of authenticity.
Also I don't want to give TOO much away just yet about a few special other things we have planned, but keep in mind we have lots of ideas for this. I mean I've been wanting to do this mod for YEARS, and only just now is the technology coming out to actually make it possible. :)
And now you'll have to excuse me while I go pass out...
I like this quote a lot.
Havent played SC, but Im thinking of some from Metal Gear.
-Load the spy up on non-lethals. Give em tranq darts, chaff, cigarettes (for the laser trip mines of course XD).
-Have toggle-able lights...pretty much throughout the buildings.
-Give the defenders a simple 'hivesight' Know each other's position and if they are attacked. Put a radio on em that the spys can take out to disable their personal 'hivesight' and take them out of other's 'hivesight' (I know its a bit NSy, but radio is from MGS)
-Limit the only lethal thing that spys can do to backstabs, chokes/neck-snaps
-The defenders should probably be loud and visible. Consider giving them a permanent flashlight or laser on their gun. Seeing the defender's laser sight sweeping just inches over your head will pwn <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- We'll have as much dynamic lighting as whatever engine we eventually settle for will allow
- Hivesight? no... but radar yes.
I like the shoot out the radio idea, that's good. :)