So the game is deemed 'over' once playercount drops below 18? What about when player count hovers around 18 (drops to 16, up to 20, drops again, up, down, etc)?
This is in regard to Savant's earlier comments, where he is basing balance off of kill-death ratios and not win-loss percentages. You have to look at the process of a normal NS game to figure why this happens.
Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game, which ends up in relatively even scores for both sides, with the aliens having a few more kills than the marines.
However, when marines end a game, it becomes a more lengthy process, and all the time they are picking off easy skulks with their upgraded weapons/shotguns/HAs. This generally leads to bloated marine scores and paltry alien scores.
It boils down to the fact that when marines win, they get tons of kills because it takes them longer to finish the game, and the period of time with marine-advantage is lengthened. When a game ends in an alien victory, they don't achieve the massive amount of kills that marines do since the period of time with alien-advantage is reduced.
This is just the way NS is, and is why you can't base balance of of kill-death ratios.
<!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+Mar 20 2004, 02:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Mar 20 2004, 02:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is in regard to Savant's earlier comments, where he is basing balance off of kill-death ratios and not win-loss percentages. You have to look at the process of a normal NS game to figure why this happens.
Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game, which ends up in relatively even scores for both sides, with the aliens having a few more kills than the marines.
However, when marines end a game, it becomes a more lengthy process, and all the time they are picking off easy skulks with their upgraded weapons/shotguns/HAs. This generally leads to bloated marine scores and paltry alien scores.
It boils down to the fact that when marines win, they get tons of kills because it takes them longer to finish the game, and the period of time with marine-advantage is lengthened. When a game ends in an alien victory, they don't achieve the massive amount of kills that marines do since the period of time with alien-advantage is reduced.
This is just the way NS is, and is why you can't base balance of of kill-death ratios. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> BINGO, lets go cry about how the knife is overpowered now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+Mar 20 2004, 02:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Mar 20 2004, 02:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What about those games where the marines camp in a turrent farmed base?, you must have experienced some of those painfully long alien endgames.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gold Leader+Mar 23 2004, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gold Leader @ Mar 23 2004, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Keyser59+Mar 20 2004, 02:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Keyser59 @ Mar 20 2004, 02:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What about those games where the marines camp in a turrent farmed base?, you must have experienced some of those painfully long alien endgames. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> During this time the only aliens that are killed are skulks and marines are generally mass slaughtered.
So in this case the bigger classes get inflated scores of killing LA marines, meanwhile LA marines get inflated scores to pimp out the LMG on little things like skulks/gorges/lerks
Keyser59 wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game, which ends up in relatively even scores for both sides, with the aliens having a few more kills than the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know what games you are playing, but I find it takes ages to finish off the marines. Even when they have no nodes and the aliens have 3 hives the marines are still VERY strong, and so it takes effort to finish them since every marine that spawns likesly have inherant upgrades. (armour and/or damage)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, when marines end a game, it becomes a more lengthy process, and all the time they are picking off easy skulks with their upgraded weapons/shotguns/HAs. This generally leads to bloated marine scores and paltry alien scores.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Which is why this is a BALANCE ISSUE. The reason the marines are hard to kill in the ned game as compared to the aliens is because there is no taking marines 'down a notch' like the marines do with aliens.
For example. Let's say the aliens have two hives and the marines have one hive.
If the marines take a hive from the aliens they loose abilities and become inherantly weaker.
If the aliens take a hive from the marines the marines loose NOTHING. They don't become weaker, and in fact will likely become stronger by nature of the time that has passed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It boils down to the fact that when marines win, they get tons of kills because it takes them longer to finish the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but you are completely off base here. Just watch the stats. You'll see that marines get a lead in kills BEFORE the first fade its the scene. In an early game battle of stock marine vs stock skulk the marine is mopping up.
Savant, what pubs do you play on? I've been playing for a while on surftown now, and I'm yet to see a showdown in marine spawn that would last more then 7-10 minutes unless it was on purpose, mainly because most people have learnt that you shouldn't suicide the higher lifeforms, and save till you have enough oni and lerks for an actual end rush, like it was with early 3.0b. And if marines lose the base in 3rd hive, they lose half of the game strategically. That means they no longer control any of the three strategically important locations, and unless they rush to take one of them, within three minutes, every single alien is going to get an additional ability and a hefty armor boost. If you count that as "loses nothing", then you truly understand nothing about the strategic aspects of the game.
One more thing - the "explosive evolution" of the aliens has been a fact since 2.0. Aliens do not gain power as a slow increment - they gain it in quick rushes, as they gain more and more higher lifeforms. Is it disbalancing for marines if suddenly 3 aliens on a 9-alien team go onos within a minute of each other? That happens quite often on full pubs with 20-24 max players. I fail to see how that equals disbalance, unless you wish for both teams to have the same power all the time. Which is just not possible. You attack when you're stronger then the enemy, and try to avoid battle when you're at you're weaker - that's the main rule of any strategy book. And it's natural with asymmetric teams that their strong points and weak points vary greatly.
Comments
Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game, which ends up in relatively even scores for both sides, with the aliens having a few more kills than the marines.
However, when marines end a game, it becomes a more lengthy process, and all the time they are picking off easy skulks with their upgraded weapons/shotguns/HAs. This generally leads to bloated marine scores and paltry alien scores.
It boils down to the fact that when marines win, they get tons of kills because it takes them longer to finish the game, and the period of time with marine-advantage is lengthened. When a game ends in an alien victory, they don't achieve the massive amount of kills that marines do since the period of time with alien-advantage is reduced.
This is just the way NS is, and is why you can't base balance of of kill-death ratios.
Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game, which ends up in relatively even scores for both sides, with the aliens having a few more kills than the marines.
However, when marines end a game, it becomes a more lengthy process, and all the time they are picking off easy skulks with their upgraded weapons/shotguns/HAs. This generally leads to bloated marine scores and paltry alien scores.
It boils down to the fact that when marines win, they get tons of kills because it takes them longer to finish the game, and the period of time with marine-advantage is lengthened. When a game ends in an alien victory, they don't achieve the massive amount of kills that marines do since the period of time with alien-advantage is reduced.
This is just the way NS is, and is why you can't base balance of of kill-death ratios. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
BINGO, lets go cry about how the knife is overpowered now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What about those games where the marines camp in a turrent farmed base?, you must have experienced some of those painfully long alien endgames.
What about those games where the marines camp in a turrent farmed base?, you must have experienced some of those painfully long alien endgames. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
During this time the only aliens that are killed are skulks and marines are generally mass slaughtered.
So in this case the bigger classes get inflated scores of killing LA marines, meanwhile LA marines get inflated scores to pimp out the LMG on little things like skulks/gorges/lerks
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines take much longer to finish games than aliens do. When an alien victory is established, it takes less than a minute or two to finish the game, which ends up in relatively even scores for both sides, with the aliens having a few more kills than the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know what games you are playing, but I find it takes ages to finish off the marines. Even when they have no nodes and the aliens have 3 hives the marines are still VERY strong, and so it takes effort to finish them since every marine that spawns likesly have inherant upgrades. (armour and/or damage)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, when marines end a game, it becomes a more lengthy process, and all the time they are picking off easy skulks with their upgraded weapons/shotguns/HAs. This generally leads to bloated marine scores and paltry alien scores.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Which is why this is a BALANCE ISSUE. The reason the marines are hard to kill in the ned game as compared to the aliens is because there is no taking marines 'down a notch' like the marines do with aliens.
For example. Let's say the aliens have two hives and the marines have one hive.
If the marines take a hive from the aliens they loose abilities and become inherantly weaker.
If the aliens take a hive from the marines the marines loose NOTHING. They don't become weaker, and in fact will likely become stronger by nature of the time that has passed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It boils down to the fact that when marines win, they get tons of kills because it takes them longer to finish the game<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sorry, but you are completely off base here. Just watch the stats. You'll see that marines get a lead in kills BEFORE the first fade its the scene. In an early game battle of stock marine vs stock skulk the marine is mopping up.
That's not balance, that's a joke.
Regards,
Savant
Is it unbalanced that both teams go through periods where they are stronger than the other team?
And if marines lose the base in 3rd hive, they lose half of the game strategically. That means they no longer control any of the three strategically important locations, and unless they rush to take one of them, within three minutes, every single alien is going to get an additional ability and a hefty armor boost. If you count that as "loses nothing", then you truly understand nothing about the strategic aspects of the game.
One more thing - the "explosive evolution" of the aliens has been a fact since 2.0. Aliens do not gain power as a slow increment - they gain it in quick rushes, as they gain more and more higher lifeforms. Is it disbalancing for marines if suddenly 3 aliens on a 9-alien team go onos within a minute of each other? That happens quite often on full pubs with 20-24 max players. I fail to see how that equals disbalance, unless you wish for both teams to have the same power all the time. Which is just not possible. You attack when you're stronger then the enemy, and try to avoid battle when you're at you're weaker - that's the main rule of any strategy book. And it's natural with asymmetric teams that their strong points and weak points vary greatly.