Balancing For "pub Play"
EEK
Join Date: 2004-02-25 Member: 26898Banned
Join Date: 2004-02-25 Member: 26898Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">A different take on the usual fight</div> I might have said this in another thread. Anyway, Flayra, something I want to chat with you about, if I may.
The problem between clan and pub play is that clans have:
1) More organization before games.
2) Higher skill.
Point one greatly aids marine clan game, as they can plan out "Okay relocate to there, move into here as soon as you can." Point two greatly aids alien game because a good fade can supress the entire marine team, and in general, ruin their day.
Pubs do not have those. Therefore 'dumbing down' marines (more then they already are) would make clan play rediculously easy. But making it harder wouldn't have too many consequences on clan play simply because they can cope easier. The same is true for aliens.
However, there's a different take on this: you see, not every pubber is fresh out of Counter-Strike High School. Consequently, not every clanner is actually any <b>good</b>.
The problem I'm seeing is that the reason no one want to listen to balancing from people without a tag next to their name is because you don't know if they came out of a game comming four victories in a row on Redphive, or they just came out of G4B2S.
Servers like Redphive and Lunixmonster have a playerbase that is probably clan-worthy, more or less. They know the game very well, they can work together, but they're not quite up to par with the skill of Romano (except for some guy Holy_Devil on lunixmonster. That guy terrifies me), nor do they have the preplanning offered in matches. The main difference between clanners and pubbers:
1) They're not in a clan, mostly, they're just... like ronin, I suppose.
2) They're more skilled then your average pubber.
3) They know how to work together, and I think some of these guys are zealots for this game and play every waking hour.
I think it'd be wise if you allowed key groups of players from these so called 'ascended pubs' to have a larger say in the balance of things. From what I've seen, they are right on the fine line between clanning and pubbing, and discussions we've had post-game on balance was usually a unanimous agreement on how things could be fixed and improved.
*Shrug* I just want to see more people able to have an equal share of being able to comment on balance then just one group of the clanners.
The problem between clan and pub play is that clans have:
1) More organization before games.
2) Higher skill.
Point one greatly aids marine clan game, as they can plan out "Okay relocate to there, move into here as soon as you can." Point two greatly aids alien game because a good fade can supress the entire marine team, and in general, ruin their day.
Pubs do not have those. Therefore 'dumbing down' marines (more then they already are) would make clan play rediculously easy. But making it harder wouldn't have too many consequences on clan play simply because they can cope easier. The same is true for aliens.
However, there's a different take on this: you see, not every pubber is fresh out of Counter-Strike High School. Consequently, not every clanner is actually any <b>good</b>.
The problem I'm seeing is that the reason no one want to listen to balancing from people without a tag next to their name is because you don't know if they came out of a game comming four victories in a row on Redphive, or they just came out of G4B2S.
Servers like Redphive and Lunixmonster have a playerbase that is probably clan-worthy, more or less. They know the game very well, they can work together, but they're not quite up to par with the skill of Romano (except for some guy Holy_Devil on lunixmonster. That guy terrifies me), nor do they have the preplanning offered in matches. The main difference between clanners and pubbers:
1) They're not in a clan, mostly, they're just... like ronin, I suppose.
2) They're more skilled then your average pubber.
3) They know how to work together, and I think some of these guys are zealots for this game and play every waking hour.
I think it'd be wise if you allowed key groups of players from these so called 'ascended pubs' to have a larger say in the balance of things. From what I've seen, they are right on the fine line between clanning and pubbing, and discussions we've had post-game on balance was usually a unanimous agreement on how things could be fixed and improved.
*Shrug* I just want to see more people able to have an equal share of being able to comment on balance then just one group of the clanners.
Comments
Take motion tracking. The unanimous conclusion I've heard is that it's overpowered, unnecessary, and debilitating for aliens, causing a 'cramp in their style' since ambushing loses all effectiveness.
Now, brought up by clanners, this would merit such replies as 'Motion tracking is for nubs' and 'We never use motion tracking in clan play'. So what happens? Well since Flay is more inclined to take information from veterans then RandomNub228134, he thinks that motion tracking is just fine. The general conclusion from everything I've seen basically points the other way: Motion tracking is indeed flawed. Now while .cri who never get MT because of their radar hacks- errr because they 'don't need it' (j/k <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->), on pub play where it's evident every game, sometimes as the first upgrade, the flaws are more apparent.
See what I mean?
People worry about clan 'gameplay' suffering from a simplistic game, but one of the most popular Half-Life mods of all time (before CS hit the scene) was TFC. If there is any example of 'simplistic' gameplay, that is it.
Pick a class and play the map. Layout is usually similar on both sides, all that is different are the players. However, you can have very pitched battles and great clan matches because it is BALANCED.
One of the key things that has been overlooked is that many people take the diversity in NS for granted. If it would balance the game significantly, does it matter if you lose a small bit of that diversity? I don't think it does. If anything, I think we can fall-back and then push forward again.
All of the major Half-Life mods (CS included) NEVER considered clan play when they originally developed the games. They developed the game for the public, and the clan base liked it and jumped on the bandwagon. Clan balance came AFTER the game had a publc foloowing, not before.
Balancing a game for clan play from the start is not going to give the developer a public friendly game. I don't care who tells them it will, the reality is it won't. Speaking as someone who has been beta testing for a very long time, I know that this just doesn't work.
I think we need to pull back to what we know works, and if that means removing a few features temporarily in order to enhance balance then I say go for it.
We can always put things back in once the game has better balance, but to try and balance something as complex as NS is now while also keeping clan play viable and public play 'fun' is becoming an exercise in futility.
I am genuinely concerned that NS will end up like Firearms because of balance issues. The FireArms mod developers tried too hard to keep the game balanced for clan play BEFORE making the game balanced for public play, and they ended up losing 90-95% of their fan base. FireArms won best mod of the year in 2000, beating out CS. (if you can imagine, that was quite the feat!) Now it is destined to obscurity because of mistakes made in making the game fun to play for the public.
I'd hate to see that happen here. Really.
Regards,
Savant
That doesn't mean we should be balancing the game for unskilled players and rambos; it means we should be balancing it for the amount of communication and teamwork that can be expected in most pub servers. We should also be coming up with ways to make this teamwork easier for less experienced players; for example, more intuitive comm interface, ability to penalize marines, improved alien emotes, etc, even if clans wouldn't need any of these.
I believe that if you want to balance the game for pubs, we should have them dev'ers hop around servers under an alternate name, possibly an alternate SteamID/WonID. See what its generally like down here (basically sample random servers), and make adjustments accordingly.
A game like NS needs static testing, meaning everyone is around the same skill level. Pub play in general, is VERY dynamic. Its the lack of tactics and smart gameplay and overall randomness of the public play that makes NS almost impossible to balance.
If NS can be balanced at the highest of levels, who's to say the game is not balanced for the lower end of the spectrum, people just need to learn how to play the game.
You can indeed balance NS for your typical pub games. If it's balanced then the most skilled team will win, just like in scrims. Obviously one team is always going to have more knowledge, skill or experience than the other in almost all pub games, but they'll never be able to work together like a clan can. Pub balance means balance for two teams with low/moderate teamwork and coordination, not evenly matched games every time regardless of skill and tactics. Games that are even in skill are not common in pub games, which is an unfortunate fact that we can't do much about; what we're trying to address is the issue of one team being more effective than the other given a pub level of teamwork.
One of the most useful upgrades of MT is that it takes a team with a poor comm and instantly gives every marine an auto-comm who provides all of his intell for him. Making teamwork that much easier.
On a clan game you can already rely on the improved teamwork part so it sorta hurts MT usefullness in scrims. But even still, having a wallhack isn't exactly a bad thing.
You cannot balance a game for 'pub' play. Again, this thinking is inherantly flawed because it assumes pub games and clan games are different.
They are not.
The game is called natural-selection and we all play it. Flayra has stated this before and I agree with him, is that "Clan games are just pub games advanced" or words to that effect. This means, that clanners will figure out how to exploit and push the game first, and then pubbers will pick up after.
No, this does not mean we are 'better', 'smarter', but as you have stated yourself the clanners are the ones with skill who are playing to win... and therefore they understand before anyone on how to win.
The pubbers then will eventually pick up the same tatics the clanners use to win and figure out how to do them as well.
Remember 1.00? Marines were hopelessly overpowered, and yet on almost of all their games they were DESTROYED consistantly for the first couple of months. Clanners, however, quickly learned how dominating the marines are. While the pubbers continued to suffer losses on the marine side, it was only a matter of months before they learned what the marines could do to slaughter the aliens.
Just think of the 4-5 months before 2.00 was released, and I'm sure we can all remember how badly aliens in pubs would get destroyed 90% of the time. Just like in clan play, where marines almost never lost, pub play moved towards that model.
If aliens are still getting wins here and there in clan play, then there is no reason to believe aliens losing in pub games is because of the players themselves, as the players will learn, but rather there is a fundamental gameplay problem somewhere else... and the biggest difference between pub and clan games? Team-Size. That's why I start there when looking for balance problems in NS.
But please, stop making the misconception of pubbers losing simply because they aren't using a class correctly.
That right there is your key difference between pub and clan play. It isn't just a linear progression in skill and determination; it's a whole different ball park. Random pub teams are not usually capable of such teamwork, and that won't change no matter how much time you give them. That is why a game that is balanced exclusively for the elite will not be balanced for the common folk, ESPECIALLY when one team(Aliens) is so much harder to coordinate when playing with strangers.
[...]
The pubbers then will eventually pick up the same tatics the clanners use to win and figure out how to do them as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. Period. Just join a random TFC server (public server, not clan server) and watch what's going on. There are heavy weapon guys doing yard death match for fun. Snipers jumping around corners and shooting other players. Soldiers trying to get into the enemy's base attacking all enemies they meet. Pyros with flame throwers trying to kill someone. This is not clan play. Publics do not adapt to clan play. Players do what is fun and the goal of the game brings no fun. Playing the game is fun. Nobody cares what a few clan players like. They can pick up flag after flag and have scores like 200:0 but nobody cares.
The difference between public play and clan play. Pub players want fun. They don't play to win the game. Clans play to win the game (this can be fun for sure but don't tell me scheduled matches are always fun. Sometimes you just don't like to play but you MUST play...). Pubs won't adapt to something that is no fun. JP rushes worked in earlier builds? To tell the truth I have seen maybe half a dozen of them in hundreds of public games. Sometimes clan players (commander) tryed JP rushes but they hardly ever worked (you know, 3 marines just go rambo, 1 JP immediately gets killed in base and so on).
NS Is perfectly balanced for clan play because of the fact its a controlled environment. You can't balance people, you can only try your best to balance the game, and at this point my only gripe in balance is the mapping.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A game like NS needs static testing, meaning everyone is around the same skill level. Pub play in general, is VERY dynamic. Its the lack of tactics and smart gameplay and overall randomness of the public play that makes NS almost impossible to balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem with this train of thought is that if you balance for 'static' teams then you will never have balance since the teams will never be ideal. Why balance the game for a situation that will never happen in public play?
Balance in NS needs to take into account that dynamic element if you want NS to be FUN and not just 'balanced'.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If NS can be balanced at the highest of levels, who's to say the game is not balanced for the lower end of the spectrum, people just need to learn how to play the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let's look at TFC. If you are new to TFC you can just grab a HWGUY, run out and start shooting. You'll get kills and you will usually benefit the team. As your skill improves you will try other classes and your skills will advance further.
Dynamic balance allows for teams of varying skill to still have a decent game. Since almost every public game played has a skill variance, we ABSOLUELY MUST balance NS to take that into account. 90% of our games are played in that way and we cannot ignore it or we will alienate the base of our players.
Trust me, you CAN balance for dynamic teams, the key is that we have to WANT to do it.
Regards,
Savant
If you balance only taking voluntary teamwork into account then you will never have good games since you will never have good teamwork.
GG NS.
I'm all for 'enforced' teamwork options on pubs. Adding things that make teamwork required would be yet another way that people could see NS is unique.
You can't just say that pubbers 'must' use teamwork if they want a good game but not enforce that. Otherwise you have no incentive for them to do so.
Frankly, if teamwork WAS enforced you would se a far more balanced game and we wouldn't have needd any of these rediculous skulk nerfs that keep coming down the pipe. Playing skulk is hard enough for people who are used to it, let alone new players. It's nearly impossible for new players to adjust to playing alien now because they get killed so much.
Regards,
Savant
When we say "pubbers" we are referring to the level of teamwork that is feasible on a pub server. The game shouldn't be balanced for people ramboing the whole game, but it also should not be balanced for a degree of teamwork that is impossible on pub servers. Take six elite players from separate clans who've never spoken to eachother, throw them on a team, and do you think they'd do as well as any of their clans? <b>Pub servers represent the VAST majority of NS' playerbase</b>, and to say that their balance can be disregarded because clanners are better is just selfish.
To balance the game for pub servers we have two real options. We can make teamwork much more streamlined for aliens(better hud features, etc) and make teamwork more required to make it easier for players to reach the balanced level of teamwork, or we can balance the game for a less strict teamwork requirement. Or a little bit of both. Obviously it would be ideal if the game were so intuitive that it would teach all players to work with total strangers as if they were a clan, but that just isn't possible so we need to find the next best thing.
If you wanna balance a pub, use the elite and randomize the teams, that way you can test balance, NOT skill.
When we say "pubbers" we are referring to the level of teamwork that is feasible on a pub server. The game shouldn't be balanced for people ramboing the whole game, but it also should not be balanced for a degree of teamwork that is impossible on pub servers. Take six elite players from separate clans who've never spoken to eachother, throw them on a team, and do you think they'd do as well as any of their clans? <b>Pub servers represent the VAST majority of NS' playerbase</b>, and to say that their balance can be disregarded because clanners are better is just selfish.
To balance the game for pub servers we have two real options. We can make teamwork much more streamlined for aliens(better hud features, etc) and make teamwork more required to make it easier for players to reach the balanced level of teamwork, or we can balance the game for a less strict teamwork requirement. Or a little bit of both. Obviously it would be ideal if the game were so intuitive that it would teach all players to work with total strangers as if they were a clan, but that just isn't possible so we need to find the next best thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just when I thought everyone had missed the point...
<3
...Why should we pick one particular pub server? Clan-skill-level playtesting doesn't occur on one single server after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If they play hours upon hours a day, why not join a clan and see what kind of teamwork it requires to do that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Because they want to play for fun, whenever they want to, and not be under extreme pressure/harassment from teammates if they do worse... if I'm a fairly good player(meaning higher than average pub, lower than the top-ish clans), should I have to join a clan to prove that?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What kind of qualifications do these "elite pubbers" have.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->What kind of qualifications do you Veterans have? Skill? But that depends on who is talking, doesn't it? Pubbers just don't have anything to prove that they're really good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you wanna balance a pub, use the elite and randomize the teams, that way you can test balance, NOT skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->As said, that would only balance it for those who actually do have high skill. Like onos being overpowered[this is a theoretical 2-0 scenario], they might die fast as **** in clans because clannies can aim at the correct spot. But, since the pubbers don't visit the forums and aren't aware of the fuxored hitboxes, they seem extremely hard to kill.
So with your method the onos would get something like 3.0 hp/armor values, since those who playtested had "insider knowledge" and knew where to aim to hit them onos, but the average players in the pubs would be completely unable to kill onos.
EDIT: I realized the example is much like bunnyhopping. Just ask and you will learn, and your skill will jump up a bit, otherwise claim it's overpowered/whatever.
Maybe that wasn't a particularly good example.
Finally, something I can agree on here.
I agree, teamwork is lacking in NS pubs.
Aliens could use things like:
- Scoreboard shows how much res each alien has (I really don't like this... but it would help pubbers coordinate)
- Hive Sight shows enemies you see like in 1.04 (makes it so a pubber can look at his hivesight and see where he's needed most
Right now the way aliens win is with a ton of communication. On a scrim, I am on my ventrillo program (3rd party software voice communication system) constantly talking with my teammates about what needs to be done and relaying info between each other.
I remember that in the vision for NS, it was stated that aliens would <b>intuitivly</b> and "instinctively" know where they needed to be with hive sight.
Nowadays to win on any alien team you have to use voice comm constantly, more so than I would on marines. That's kinda backwards.
I think more needs to be done with the hivesight to make it so pubbers can quickly figure out what the heck is going on and without having get orders (aka marine comm) and without having to ask 3 different people on the team where the marines are and what they need to do.
While making changes to the hivesight wouldn't matter too much for clan play, it would matter a lot for pub play.
This is one example I can think of that would benifit pubbers (people who don't know each other very well and aren't organized) but not clanners (people who already are organized).
If we are going to take this topic into anywhere useful, let us start with this.
Please, Savant, Zek, and Align, do not start saying this crap of how pub play is "unbalanced" because marines have knockback or nonsense like that. While you may think it is, keep in mind most vets do not simply because they are able to kill marines/skulks in the same situations you would lose in. Calling something unbalanced when the solution is to simply learn to adapt to it better is the best way to turn off 99% of the hardcore clanners.
When you would like to discuss clan play problems, I would suggest looking at other aspects, as you will probably never get a clanner to agree with you. Let Flayra worry about the number tweak, and worry more about the overall design and feel that would make it unenjoyable for pubbers.
Also, there's no reason to take a jab at the knockback discussion here, that has its own thread for a reason. Why bring it up?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please, Savant, Zek, and Align, do not start saying this crap of how pub play is "unbalanced" because marines have knockback or nonsense like that. While you may think it is, keep in mind most vets do not simply because they are able to kill marines/skulks in the same situations you would lose in. Calling something unbalanced when the solution is to simply learn to adapt to it better is the best way to turn off 99% of the hardcore clanners.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Adapt? This is where you have it backwards... If anything, it is up to clanners to adapt to the game. When you take a group of pubbers and a group of clanners and put them in a situation, which will adapt better? The clanners.
Changes that force the public to make large scale adaptations are a bad idea at the best of time. Knockback is just one of those mind-bogglingly backward ideas that was put in to appease people who have absoluely ZERO interest in making the game enjoyable for the public at large.
Without knockback CLANNERS could adapt, and I think the onus should be on them to do so. While I'm happy to see knockback in tournament mode only, if I had to choose between knockback for all or knockback for none, then I would say knockback for none since it serves the needs of 90% of the player base and the other 10% can ADAPT to it.
You don't balance a game by telling the public to 'adapt' to it. (I find that a very arrogant and ignorant way of insulting the gaming public - in my opinion)
A game may be made more popular with a good clan base, but NO game can survive without a PUBLIC fan base. The public are the bread and butter of any game. So while NS could happily survive without clanners, it will never survive without the public.
Regards,
Savant
Really, when you're balancing it for pubbers, you're dumbing it down. All the things that are easy with intricate teamwork are hard on pubs - is the solution to remove them? Natural Selection is a *team-based* game as many have said so far, and you can only strip away so much of that before you lose the teamwork aspect. You might just have to accept that it won't be the most popular game - simply because it's heavily teambased.
Take two of the top games played on the 'net - DoD and CS. Both of these are 'pub-friendly' - simply because one player can dominate the game singlehandedly, or do whatever they want. If we implement something like this in NS, it'll turn into something like this - on the aliens side, you'd have a team of res****s, reswhoring because they can, without affecting their team. What's the point in having a team of aliens then? It just turns into Deathmatch without half of the players shooting at you. Marine side? No idea how that'd work.
There might be small changes you can do to adjust the game, but honestly, the core idea of NS is teamplay, and if you're going to balance it for the pubs, you'll lose that.
-calldown