Gold Leader wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Argument: "Marine losses were due to incompetence" Counter: Thats right, this is the reality of a public server - you will not get a competent team all the time. Its just easier to lose as Marines because of the importance of the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ahh, but that's the point though. It's NOT because you don't get a competent marine team, all it takes is ONE incompetent player (as marine commander) to cost them the game. If he makes a few key mistakes the game is lost. You can have a great team and a lousy comm and the marines are screwed. Ejecting the comm usually only prolongs the inevitable. (a recovery from a bad comm is rare)
On the alien team they need a VERY high level of teamwork just to survive. The game is usually spent yelling at teammates to assist at some part of the map, and if you don't get the help the alien team loses. It is too easy to lose as aliens since all it takes is for marines to secure the double node and one hive for them to win most games. You may retort that you should stop them from doing it, but with a single spawn queue the marines have an artifical advantage. They can throw their bodies at a give objective and not be concerned with the spawn queue, whereas the aliens will end up waiting minutes to spawn back in. By that time the marines superior spawn rate has secured the objective AND the game. The aliens now play out a lost game, which is NOT FUN.
I think a simple way to 'fix' marine losses would be a commander mode trainer. There is no way to train except in game, and in game there is no margin for error. It's hard to learn in an atmosphere like that.
Aliens (namely the skulk) needs to be beefed back to previous levels so they don't die more often than marines. Light marines vs skulks should be equal, but they are slanted in the marine favour right now. (the stats above will help establish that point)
Playing aliens is not fun most of the time. (on classic) That's why you will often see the marine door with someone waiting to get in. I rarely see that happen for aliens.
If I may ask, what does skulk bite being #1 have to do with this? Bite is the only attack weapon for skulks(basic class which you spawn as), while marines can choose between LMG and pistol- since both are effective at killing it is unlikely that either would be used more than/as much as bite.
NS is an <b>asymmetrical</b> mod. One skulk is NOT worth one marine. That's like saying that one zergling is worth one terran marine.
LMG scores far more kills then skulk bite for three reasons: 1. It's a ranged attack 2. Game dynamics force marines to move in tight groups, also enchancing #1 3. LMG gets damage upgrades.
Remember, in this mod frags aren't half as important as map control. If skulks get as many kills as marines, that means that the situation on the map is completely hopeless for marines due to speed difference. In other words aliens control the map. Also remember that aliens morph into higher lifeforms much more often then marines get better weaponry on pubs.
All in all, this sort of "one on one" comparison is worthless. This isn't CS where the teams are relatively symmetrical, and kill count is worthless as a measurement of betterness, as you can have 5/1 ratio and still be losing badly because all your team does is fraghunting, while the other team plays strategically, securing the map. So you have to look at the big picture here rather then the individual kill ratios. And that big picture shows that aliens win more then marines on pubs. End of story.
Also, when it comes to one bad player screwing the game, aliens are worse off then marines. You can eject a crappy commander, but if a crappy gorge drops SC for the first chamber, you're **** for the rest of the game.
Lucky_ wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is an asymmetrical mod. One skulk is NOT worth one marine. That's like saying that one zergling is worth one terran marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Please, enough with the irrelevant comparisons. Of course NS is an asymetrical mod, but one marine must still equal one alien since they are controlled by PEOPLE. If these were computer controlled players you might have a point.
They're not.
Since teams must be balanced for the number of players playing, and since both teams start as either basic skulk or basic marine, a vanilla marine should be equal to a vanilla skulk in terms of effectiveness. They should have differet strengths and weaknesses though. The marine should excel at range and the alien should excel in melee range. THAT is asymetrical.
If marines are getting more kills then the game is not balanced. Each kill represents a player out of the game, and ANY team with a player shortage will be at a disadvantage. The horrid alien spawn queue with one hive makes any large number of aliens deaths a serious blow to gameplay.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 13 2004, 04:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 13 2004, 04:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lucky_ wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is an asymmetrical mod. One skulk is NOT worth one marine. That's like saying that one zergling is worth one terran marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Please, enough with the irrelevant comparisons. Of course NS is an asymetrical mod, but one marine must still equal one alien since they are controlled by PEOPLE. If these were computer controlled players you might have a point.
They're not.
Since teams must be balanced for the number of players playing, and since both teams start as either basic skulk or basic marine, a vanilla marine should be equal to a vanilla skulk in terms of effectiveness. They should have differet strengths and weaknesses though. The marine should excel at range and the alien should excel in melee range. THAT is asymetrical.
If marines are getting more kills then the game is not balanced. Each kill represents a player out of the game, and ANY team with a player shortage will be at a disadvantage. The horrid alien spawn queue with one hive makes any large number of aliens deaths a serious blow to gameplay.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines should always have lesser wins and more kills.
This is because skulks have more chances to attack marines because they are faster.
If skulks had just as many kills as marines, then something in the game is seriously flawed, because skulks are FASTER than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh btw, on that LoC server: compared to LMG + Pistol + Knife:
Skulk bite + Parasite: 17070
LMG + Pistol + Knife: 20199
That is a difference of 3000 kills. That is pretty much perfect. Considering that the LMG continually stays effective the entire game, and that the skulk gradually becomes fodder as bigger stuff comes out, these numbers make a lot of sense.
I guess I'm going to have to say it once again, since savant apparently decides to conviniently disgard the facts that don't fit his theories on pub play - <b>one skulk does not equal one marine on any aspect</b>. And they're not supposed to either. If you want all player-controlled units to be even, play a symmetrical game. In NS, kill count is secondary to map control. This is a simple fact. Hence the skulk's speed and mobility (vent access) more then compensate for lack of ranged ability and weakness in the long hallways against groups of marines. In close range combat, skulk is deadly - anyone knows that. It's just that in pubs, majority of people use skulk as a battering ram - they run straight down the hallway into the line of marines. Of course they get shot to shreds, and then come to complain that skulk is subpar. Next you'll probably want to make a single fade have same worth as a single heavy armor marine with weapons and a welder, because both have the approximately same cost and are both player controlled and because teamwork is hard to attain in pubs, so they should be streamlined. Sheesh.
So tell me Lucky, do you believe marines should be stronger than skulks? If so, how do you explain the even team numbers(not at all akin to the zergling example)? And the slower hive 1 alien spawning? They are asymetrical because of the vast difference in how they're played, but as far as actual power they should be comparable to eachother, and right now in pubs they clearly are not.
Which was the backbone of my point <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Gotta love this chorus-style forum talk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 13 2004, 07:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 13 2004, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Too bad the alien style spawn queue where the entire team goes single file in a one hive game just rips that therory to shreds.
You can't get back in the game 'faster' if you die more often and have to spawn back one at a time.
That's simple math.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Last time I checked;
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in
Aliens 7 seconds per hive
If anything the hive should spawn in 1 second faster. That way one hive would = 2 IP's.
Would help a lot. 1 second may not seem like a lot but with 15 other players it adds up.
Forlorn wrote: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last time I checked;
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Last time I checked there was no limit to the number of IPs one could build. In practice one could easily build enough IPs to outspawn aliens. Of course this doesn't take into account distress beacon, which can clean the marine queue. aliens don't have that luxury.
Marines will ALWAYS win in a battle of attrition for a gievn point when it comes down to spawn rates. It's just yet one more way the marines have the advantage over aliens.
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Last time I checked there was no limit to the number of IPs one could build. In practice one could easily build enough IPs to outspawn aliens. Of course this doesn't take into account distress beacon, which can clean the marine queue. aliens don't have that luxury.
Marines will ALWAYS win in a battle of attrition for a gievn point when it comes down to spawn rates. It's just yet one more way the marines have the advantage over aliens.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It would take 3 IP's to outspawn 1 hive if the hive spawned in at 6 per second.
That is 60 res.
That is a lot to be wasting on IP's, and if you need to spawn in that fast (which means you are being killed fast) then obviously you are going to lose anyways.
However, on large servers this is quite abuseable. I played on a 15 v 15 server once, aliens were very close to getting up their second hive.
It was like 90% done. Marines snunk up a phase outside of it.
About 10 marines were all outside of it. We managed to them. We were killing their phase gate. Only 1-2 skulks surrived, and all of the sudden 14 marines warped through, faster than 2 skulks could kill them one at a time. Aliens lost the hive.
Problem? Phase gates let marines through too fast. Spawn rates were fine for the most part, and distress beacon worked A-Okay. Phase gates need a delay of how fast they can be used, as right now it's too little.
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Last time I checked there was no limit to the number of IPs one could build. In practice one could easily build enough IPs to outspawn aliens. Of course this doesn't take into account distress beacon, which can clean the marine queue. aliens don't have that luxury.
Marines will ALWAYS win in a battle of attrition for a gievn point when it comes down to spawn rates. It's just yet one more way the marines have the advantage over aliens.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Theres no limit to the number of IP's that can be built, however there is a limit on spawning. Only 3 marines can spawn at any given time. So having more than 3 spawn portals is redundant, and a waste of resources.
As Forlorn mentioned, if your team is dying fast enough that you need 3 spawn portals, well your probably not doing so well. Unless your playing on a massive server, which isn't very much fun balance wise anyway.
Beacon costs 15 res per use, and isn't instant. So it all has costs.
But I agree, Phasegate portal timings could be increased just a bit.
Daxx, are you sure? I could swear I saw a server where the llamah commander spammed IPs, and then when we all got killed we were spawning in 4 at a time(Reinforcing...).
You don't "Start" with phase gate - you need observatory (needs armory to be placed iirc), phase tech (needs ip to research) and place at least 2 phase gates. That takes a lot of time and a lot of resourses. Lately I've been playing on some low-skill pubs and I think I now understand why aliens win so many games - onos. It requires quite tight teamplay to kill an onos, so for relatively low skill pub, commander is unlikely to be able to orginize his team well enough. And onos doesn't really require teamplay if he doesn't meet any serious opposition. Hence aliens win even if marines controlled most of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Lucky_+Mar 17 2004, 05:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lucky_ @ Mar 17 2004, 05:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lately I've been playing on some low-skill pubs and I think I now understand why aliens win so many games - onos. It requires quite tight teamplay to kill an onos, so for relatively low skill pub, commander is unlikely to be able to orginize his team well enough. And onos doesn't really require teamplay if he doesn't meet any serious opposition. Hence aliens win even if marines controlled most of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Reminds me of why onos are overpowered in combat. They take a team to take down, so if the whole alien team goes onos you need multiple marine teams.
Having played quite a lot on Surftown NS servers lately, I can vouch that aliens win at least as many if not more games then marines. In fact, I'd say with quite high certainty that marines lose more games then they win. Reason #1 - onos ownage in mid-game. I can't even remeber how many games were 2 hive lockdown almost complete and marines controlling 3/4 of the map and nodes, then onos or a couple of fades dance in and marines effectively lose the game within 2-3 minutes, after which you can almost hear commander recognise that he can't get the game under conrtol anymore and starting turtling in. Idiotic, and it makes one want to **** at those commanders that can't get the team of pubbers organized even a little bit. But you can't demand these guys to have a veteran's skill, no matter how annoying that is <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo--> Overall, the most unbalancing factor is still the players - a vetaran commander a few veteran marines in the field tend to own alien team, but your average pubber team doesn't have those. At the same time onos doesn't need all that much experience with combat emulating classic's onos quite well. Hence there are much more good oni/fades then good commanders. And marines get owned.
the problem is most people are not willing to comm and most people are not developing the skills to comm since they can just play combat next round. which is obviously going to be funner, since its no thinking point and click.
very rarely does a team that a veteran comm and a decent team lose.
i will also say this. combat is ruining NS. hearing original NS called "resource mode" made me cringe. its not developing new nsplayers or getting them accustomed to ns. its doing the opposite, its getting them used to a counter-strike with aliens.
we need to decide if we want an FPS with strategized teamwork or one without.
If it was equally fun to play either team(on a pub) there would be less teamstacking, which instantly==more fun. Meaning we get that many more people who willingly play classic. Personally I don't even bother to play classic anymore, and just attempt to increase my skills with leap and whatnot in combat mode(looking forward to when I can have a normal NS game). Classic is <u>not fun</u> thanks to all the teamstacking, and chances are that the nubbies stack the teams because they don't want to be on the other team(usually aliens), as they don't have fun playing then.
Thanks to Scylla who did some research and wrote a log analyzer tool just for those logs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Argument: "Marine losses were due to incompetence"
Counter: Thats right, this is the reality of a public server - you will not get a competent team all the time. Its just easier to lose as Marines because of the importance of the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ahh, but that's the point though. It's NOT because you don't get a competent marine team, all it takes is ONE incompetent player (as marine commander) to cost them the game. If he makes a few key mistakes the game is lost. You can have a great team and a lousy comm and the marines are screwed. Ejecting the comm usually only prolongs the inevitable. (a recovery from a bad comm is rare)
On the alien team they need a VERY high level of teamwork just to survive. The game is usually spent yelling at teammates to assist at some part of the map, and if you don't get the help the alien team loses. It is too easy to lose as aliens since all it takes is for marines to secure the double node and one hive for them to win most games. You may retort that you should stop them from doing it, but with a single spawn queue the marines have an artifical advantage. They can throw their bodies at a give objective and not be concerned with the spawn queue, whereas the aliens will end up waiting minutes to spawn back in. By that time the marines superior spawn rate has secured the objective AND the game. The aliens now play out a lost game, which is NOT FUN.
I think a simple way to 'fix' marine losses would be a commander mode trainer. There is no way to train except in game, and in game there is no margin for error. It's hard to learn in an atmosphere like that.
Aliens (namely the skulk) needs to be beefed back to previous levels so they don't die more often than marines. Light marines vs skulks should be equal, but they are slanted in the marine favour right now. (the stats above will help establish that point)
Playing aliens is not fun most of the time. (on classic) That's why you will often see the marine door with someone waiting to get in. I rarely see that happen for aliens.
Regards,
Savant
LMG scores far more kills then skulk bite for three reasons:
1. It's a ranged attack
2. Game dynamics force marines to move in tight groups, also enchancing #1
3. LMG gets damage upgrades.
Remember, in this mod frags aren't half as important as map control. If skulks get as many kills as marines, that means that the situation on the map is completely hopeless for marines due to speed difference. In other words aliens control the map. Also remember that aliens morph into higher lifeforms much more often then marines get better weaponry on pubs.
All in all, this sort of "one on one" comparison is worthless. This isn't CS where the teams are relatively symmetrical, and kill count is worthless as a measurement of betterness, as you can have 5/1 ratio and still be losing badly because all your team does is fraghunting, while the other team plays strategically, securing the map. So you have to look at the big picture here rather then the individual kill ratios. And that big picture shows that aliens win more then marines on pubs. End of story.
Also, when it comes to one bad player screwing the game, aliens are worse off then marines. You can eject a crappy commander, but if a crappy gorge drops SC for the first chamber, you're **** for the rest of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is an asymmetrical mod. One skulk is NOT worth one marine. That's like saying that one zergling is worth one terran marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Please, enough with the irrelevant comparisons. Of course NS is an asymetrical mod, but one marine must still equal one alien since they are controlled by PEOPLE. If these were computer controlled players you might have a point.
They're not.
Since teams must be balanced for the number of players playing, and since both teams start as either basic skulk or basic marine, a vanilla marine should be equal to a vanilla skulk in terms of effectiveness. They should have differet strengths and weaknesses though. The marine should excel at range and the alien should excel in melee range. THAT is asymetrical.
If marines are getting more kills then the game is not balanced. Each kill represents a player out of the game, and ANY team with a player shortage will be at a disadvantage. The horrid alien spawn queue with one hive makes any large number of aliens deaths a serious blow to gameplay.
Regards,
Savant
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS is an asymmetrical mod. One skulk is NOT worth one marine. That's like saying that one zergling is worth one terran marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Please, enough with the irrelevant comparisons. Of course NS is an asymetrical mod, but one marine must still equal one alien since they are controlled by PEOPLE. If these were computer controlled players you might have a point.
They're not.
Since teams must be balanced for the number of players playing, and since both teams start as either basic skulk or basic marine, a vanilla marine should be equal to a vanilla skulk in terms of effectiveness. They should have differet strengths and weaknesses though. The marine should excel at range and the alien should excel in melee range. THAT is asymetrical.
If marines are getting more kills then the game is not balanced. Each kill represents a player out of the game, and ANY team with a player shortage will be at a disadvantage. The horrid alien spawn queue with one hive makes any large number of aliens deaths a serious blow to gameplay.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Marines should always have lesser wins and more kills.
This is because skulks have more chances to attack marines because they are faster.
If skulks had just as many kills as marines, then something in the game is seriously flawed, because skulks are FASTER than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh btw, on that LoC server: compared to LMG + Pistol + Knife:
Skulk bite + Parasite: 17070
LMG + Pistol + Knife: 20199
That is a difference of 3000 kills. That is pretty much perfect. Considering that the LMG continually stays effective the entire game, and that the skulk gradually becomes fodder as bigger stuff comes out, these numbers make a lot of sense.
In NS, kill count is secondary to map control. This is a simple fact. Hence the skulk's speed and mobility (vent access) more then compensate for lack of ranged ability and weakness in the long hallways against groups of marines. In close range combat, skulk is deadly - anyone knows that. It's just that in pubs, majority of people use skulk as a battering ram - they run straight down the hallway into the line of marines. Of course they get shot to shreds, and then come to complain that skulk is subpar.
Next you'll probably want to make a single fade have same worth as a single heavy armor marine with weapons and a welder, because both have the approximately same cost and are both player controlled and because teamwork is hard to attain in pubs, so they should be streamlined. Sheesh.
Gotta love this chorus-style forum talk <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You can't get back in the game 'faster' if you die more often and have to spawn back one at a time.
That's simple math.
Regards,
Savant
You can't get back in the game 'faster' if you die more often and have to spawn back one at a time.
That's simple math.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last time I checked;
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in
Aliens 7 seconds per hive
If anything the hive should spawn in 1 second faster. That way one hive would = 2 IP's.
Would help a lot. 1 second may not seem like a lot but with 15 other players it adds up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last time I checked;
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Last time I checked there was no limit to the number of IPs one could build. In practice one could easily build enough IPs to outspawn aliens. Of course this doesn't take into account distress beacon, which can clean the marine queue. aliens don't have that luxury.
Marines will ALWAYS win in a battle of attrition for a gievn point when it comes down to spawn rates. It's just yet one more way the marines have the advantage over aliens.
Regards,
Savant
Note how the thread degenerated into argument over who is more powerful - skulk or vanilla marine after the few stats from a few servers were posted.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last time I checked;
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Last time I checked there was no limit to the number of IPs one could build. In practice one could easily build enough IPs to outspawn aliens. Of course this doesn't take into account distress beacon, which can clean the marine queue. aliens don't have that luxury.
Marines will ALWAYS win in a battle of attrition for a gievn point when it comes down to spawn rates. It's just yet one more way the marines have the advantage over aliens.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would take 3 IP's to outspawn 1 hive if the hive spawned in at 6 per second.
That is 60 res.
That is a lot to be wasting on IP's, and if you need to spawn in that fast (which means you are being killed fast) then obviously you are going to lose anyways.
However, on large servers this is quite abuseable. I played on a 15 v 15 server once, aliens were very close to getting up their second hive.
It was like 90% done. Marines snunk up a phase outside of it.
About 10 marines were all outside of it. We managed to them. We were killing their phase gate. Only 1-2 skulks surrived, and all of the sudden 14 marines warped through, faster than 2 skulks could kill them one at a time. Aliens lost the hive.
Problem? Phase gates let marines through too fast. Spawn rates were fine for the most part, and distress beacon worked A-Okay. Phase gates need a delay of how fast they can be used, as right now it's too little.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last time I checked;
Marines take 12 seconds per IP to spawn in<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Last time I checked there was no limit to the number of IPs one could build. In practice one could easily build enough IPs to outspawn aliens. Of course this doesn't take into account distress beacon, which can clean the marine queue. aliens don't have that luxury.
Marines will ALWAYS win in a battle of attrition for a gievn point when it comes down to spawn rates. It's just yet one more way the marines have the advantage over aliens.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theres no limit to the number of IP's that can be built, however there is a limit on spawning. Only 3 marines can spawn at any given time. So having more than 3 spawn portals is redundant, and a waste of resources.
As Forlorn mentioned, if your team is dying fast enough that you need 3 spawn portals, well your probably not doing so well. Unless your playing on a massive server, which isn't very much fun balance wise anyway.
Beacon costs 15 res per use, and isn't instant. So it all has costs.
But I agree, Phasegate portal timings could be increased just a bit.
thats why i was thinking of a start of NO upgrades just phase gates and mass ips.
get 6 ips and phase to alein hive. youll out spawn then even at 2 hives but it should be over before then.
combat is not developing team players
unless jp/hmg rambos taking down the hive are team players... shrug.
Lately I've been playing on some low-skill pubs and I think I now understand why aliens win so many games - onos. It requires quite tight teamplay to kill an onos, so for relatively low skill pub, commander is unlikely to be able to orginize his team well enough. And onos doesn't really require teamplay if he doesn't meet any serious opposition. Hence aliens win even if marines controlled most of the game.
Reminds me of why onos are overpowered in combat. They take a team to take down, so if the whole alien team goes onos you need multiple marine teams.
Overall, the most unbalancing factor is still the players - a vetaran commander a few veteran marines in the field tend to own alien team, but your average pubber team doesn't have those. At the same time onos doesn't need all that much experience with combat emulating classic's onos quite well. Hence there are much more good oni/fades then good commanders. And marines get owned.
very rarely does a team that a veteran comm and a decent team lose.
i will also say this. combat is ruining NS. hearing original NS called "resource mode" made me cringe. its not developing new nsplayers or getting them accustomed to ns. its doing the opposite, its getting them used to a counter-strike with aliens.
we need to decide if we want an FPS with strategized teamwork or one without.
Personally I don't even bother to play classic anymore, and just attempt to increase my skills with leap and whatnot in combat mode(looking forward to when I can have a normal NS game). Classic is <u>not fun</u> thanks to all the teamstacking, and chances are that the nubbies stack the teams because they don't want to be on the other team(usually aliens), as they don't have fun playing then.
Thanks to Scylla who did some research and wrote a log analyzer tool just for those logs <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Server: 62.93.193.208:27015 Weasel's Reborn NS 3.0 Beta 3
The server has 20 slots and is full most of the time.
Statistics from 19/2 - 15/3
Only games with 18+ players and more than 10 minutes.
Wins:
CO Rines 105
CO Alien 136
NS Rines 94
NS Alien 132
Map - average marine kills - average alien kills - average time
co_angst 199 202 22
co_core 187 211 20
co_daimos 162 175 22
co_faceoff 151 178 20
co_kestrel 201 189 22
co_pulse 161 173 16
co_rebirth 168 167 20
co_ulysses 190 187 20
ns_agora 80 63 22
ns_ayumi 76 78 21
ns_caged 95 75 22
ns_eclipse 87 79 20
ns_hera 98 76 24
ns_lost 89 77 21
ns_metal 91 76 21
ns_mineshaft 76 73 21
ns_nancy 77 68 20
ns_nothing 79 79 23
ns_origin 94 65 24
ns_tanith 93 92 23
ns_veil 95 74 22