<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 25 2004, 02:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 25 2004, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 25 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 25 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sometimes I feel you make too big of a distinction between pubbers and clanners. The biggest difference is the skill and teamwork between the two, but other than that I wouldn't say the games are suddenly 100% different. It is still the same game, and unless you've actually played NS, some bum of the street could never tell the difference between pub play and clan play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So I ask you this: Why should tha game be balanced for the upper 10% +/- rather than the rest of the playing population. If knockback is only a detriment to the "unwashed masses" then isn't it a problem for most people that play the game? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why balance the game for the upper 10%? That's easy enough, because it's only the upper 10% who actually understand how to play the game!
On the other hand, pubs have people who like to explore maps, who are learning, who aren't very good at the game, who don't understand proper coordination, etc. etc.
Knockback seems to me more like an cheap excuse for not being able to kill a marine. Why don't you try looking somewhere else to put the blame? That genreally is the number one solution.
Next, knockback, even if it was removed, all you are going to do is encourage people to come to these forums and start whining about why the aliens are so overpowered. Really, knockback is an important balancing factor of the game.
While you guys insist that pub play would improve dramitcally if knockback is removed, all I think is that it will just make the aliens overpowered due to early game dominance.
I say this because I know in clan games clanner marines would get destroyed, and if clanner marines can't win as marines there is no way pubber marines will have a better chance.
KB is the wrong way to balance a game. (IMHO of course.) Only some people can use it and it's still really a matter of luck to time the jump right. In addition, it detracts from the atmosphere of the game.
It's unfortunately that NS has several kludge balances (like teeth that obscure vision and extra large gun flash sprites) that affect balance so differently at different levels of play.
Don't bother addressing those 2 points directly in this thread -- just trying to point out that
-balance in NS is very precarious -is different at different stages of the game -is vastly different for different skill levels -is completely different for different sized games
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 25 2004, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 25 2004, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why balance the game for the upper 10%? That's easy enough, because it's only the upper 10% who actually understand how to play the game! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That has to be the most elitist drivel I have ever seen on these forums. I don't think I will bother debating anything further with you.
<!--QuoteBegin-rockst4r+Feb 19 2004, 09:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rockst4r @ Feb 19 2004, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> some people drive me crazy on the boards. can't you just admit that a ha jumping like mad is a) annoying b) unrealistic c) looks rediculous.
like schmurfy. oh its in the game and it sucks, but we must accept it and everybody who cannot stand it (or master it) is a looooooser.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->funny, since when natural selection is realistic ? do you see a lot of aliens in the streets ? dod is a simulation, ns is absolutely not one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ok. then lets make marines jump 30 ft high and make them able to kill with thoughts. since when does a game thats not like dod be totally unrealistic?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->btw marines jumping is not a bug, or anything else and ns is not dod ! stamina bar, pfff... ridiculous... don't you want recoil too ? If you can't bite a jumping marine, practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pretty hard to backup your arguments. well... you don't have to, i guess. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now now someone never heard of a thing called balance, that would just make the marines so strong, how about as a counter we make the onos crap exposive poo that runs after mariens and covers them in goo exploding isntantly killing the whole map off. Soudn stupid so does you'r comment.
Jumping is part of the game, its part of half life go develope NS on a diferent game engine if you want it too change. Anyway who sasy the marines don't have some sort of power assisted jumping module in thier armour. Get serious mate and don't post random stupid ****.
Just another thing have you ever been in a fist fight? When you're in a real fight there non of this 'honor' or standing back bradishing fists you get in there and do what ever you have to jump, kick, bite, punch Id jumpa round if ym freaking life depended on it too. There are all sorts of factors to take into account after all its a game, if games where realistic we would be playing games like 'Lets go type out a report for the boss today' or the all time favorite 'Discuss what you did today with the missus' games are games they are meant to be and escape not real life. If you want real go to work, don't play games. If you can't play games that hing slightly on your ability to imagine go and play something safe like monopoly. (Mind you I did swallo a house when I was a child which nearly killed me so maybe that not such a good example)
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 25 2004, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 25 2004, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why balance the game for the upper 10%? That's easy enough, because it's only the upper 10% who actually understand how to play the game!
On the other hand, pubs have people who like to explore maps, who are learning, who aren't very good at the game, who don't understand proper coordination, etc. etc.
Knockback seems to me more like an cheap excuse for not being able to kill a marine. Why don't you try looking somewhere else to put the blame? That genreally is the number one solution.
Next, knockback, even if it was removed, all you are going to do is encourage people to come to these forums and start whining about why the aliens are so overpowered. Really, knockback is an important balancing factor of the game.
While you guys insist that pub play would improve dramitcally if knockback is removed, all I think is that it will just make the aliens overpowered due to early game dominance.
I say this because I know in clan games clanner marines would get destroyed, and if clanner marines can't win as marines there is no way pubber marines will have a better chance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The funny thing about people is that they tend to decide for themselves how the game is supposed to be played.
NS shouldn't be limited to 6v6 scrims and matches. A lot of people like playing 10v10 games. Heck, maybe someday somebody would like to play a somewhat balanced game of 16v16. CAL, UGL and all the other leagues can sod off for all I care. I'd rather clan games go down the toilet and aliens have a chance in big pubs against the hyper-efficient tech rushes the marines always do. But instead, marine weapons, structures and upgrades are being made continually cheaper to appease a vocal minority of the community. You need to stop kidding yourself. Marines will adapt just like the aliens have done so many times.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just another thing have you ever been in a fist fight? When you're in a real fight there non of this 'honor' or standing back bradishing fists you get in there and do what ever you have to jump, kick, bite, punch Id jumpa round if ym freaking life depended on it too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone that actually has been in either a brawl or athetlics knows that having at least one foot on the ground makes you alot more manueverable, unlike in NS where you can be fastest constantly jumping. Not that realism contributes to this discussion (since non-hopping is atmospheric, not realistic), but I felt the need to wisecrack here as mr. Gorfob has an amusingly bad grip on everyday physics (jumping irl subjects you entirely to inertia [and drag], and throws you off balance. nothing you'd do in a brawl to avoid being hurt).
On topic, but utterly irrelevant commentary: Maybe the DoD solution would really be the most fun - allow for a type of short-term sprinting for fights, instead of hopping and lower base movement speed a bit. Its not necessarily more realistic than hop-mania, but its almost definitely better and more intuitive gameplay.
[Note : I don't advocate doing it the same way as DoD, where you'll lower your weapon and immediately accelerate to superman-like speeds. A more gradual acceleration and more reasonable speeds but while allowing for your weapon to be used with a mildly increased CoF would be highly preferrable. ]
Sarisel.::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::.Join Date: 2003-07-30Member: 18557Members, Constellation
I don't understand why you people make such a big deal out of knockback. Firstly, a good knockback (one that saves the marine) is rare for all Kharaa species except the Onos. It is not like it happens every time a skulk hits a marine. In 95% of the cases, it isn't knockback that saves the marine be it in scrims,matches, or pubs. It is either medpacks from the commander or the skulk's lacking of playing ability.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The funny thing about people is that they tend to decide for themselves how the game is supposed to be played.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you follow this statement with your own vision of how the game should be played. You are funny, are you not?
I am funny as well.
Taking out knockback will remove an aesthetic element from NS. No more getting tossed in the air by that Onos. Without knockback, you'll see more marines dying than ever. How are they going to adapt? How do inexperienced players adapt? You're talking about making the game for the pub scene. I haven't seen any adaptation on pubs since 1.04 when I started playing. It is in essence the same game for marines. The strategies are different, but the game is the same. Pub marines can't 'adapt'. Without knockback, perhaps they can learn to be more cautious perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that once a skulk is on them, it is game over. Once that skulk evolves into a fade or an onos, good luck to them.
Knockback doesn't really annoy me unless marines purposely take advantage of it. For example: marines stand on rails or objects on which they can fall off easily of. Knockback is clearly advantageous for them - a single bite will knock the marine off, which greatly widens the gap between the alien and marine.
I'm not sure if marines were really being raped in the build without knockback. I suspect it wasn't just because of lack of knockback that marines were at a disadvantage. I don't think hand grenades were even added/revised at that build.
If marines need some sort of minor advantage, that advantage shouldn't be knockback. It's just a cheap excuse to not fine tune other values.
Sarisel, nobody is talking about removing knockback from gore, so your "aesthetic" argument is irrelevant.
I once knocked a marine back about 15-20 feet as a skulk. It was ridiculous, I had ambushed him and then circle strafed to the right to finish him off, but he was way out of range and finished me off as he flew away. I was like <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> Perhaps tone knockback down? So it kinda knocks them up a bit more instead of laterally? I dunno, just something that won't make them go flying quite as much.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Feb 26 2004, 10:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Feb 26 2004, 10:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do I have to quote myself?
Knockback will make little to no difference unless the marines fail to realize it's been taken out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Blind or Ignorant, choose one?
Not only has it been PT'ed and put back in by the man himself (Flayra) but other people who have played without KB have all said KB keeps marines from being destroyed.
So someone actually said they lost a game because they didnt knock back jump enough? "Dam bill, I couldnt put that phase gate up by the hive by my self because I couldnt KB from that skulk that ambushed me." Knock back doesent happen every time or all the time, its just something that feels like a bug. And if marines need such an edge, why not just make them randomly immune from one counter so they dont even have to bother jumping like madmen. And put the CC in one of the hives. And have them all start out with shotguns, marines get owned because they dont work together, Every time I work with multiple marines, I never die untill its time to build at the objective.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 26 2004, 05:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 26 2004, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Align+Feb 26 2004, 10:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Feb 26 2004, 10:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do I have to quote myself?
Knockback will make little to no difference unless the marines fail to realize it's been taken out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Blind or Ignorant, choose one?
Not only has it been PT'ed and put back in by the man himself (Flayra) but other people who have played without KB have all said KB keeps marines from being destroyed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought it was just tried in one build? That would have given you testers, 2 weeks? to adapt. Seriously, I did NOT jump like crazy previously(because I'm the type that tends to avoid doing to others what I would hate them doing to me- like 'cloakus' just as an example), and did fine. Knockback is in no way necessary to marine survival.
I'm not sure I understand the 'atmospheric effect' that removing knockback would somehow reintroduce into NS. Right now, I'd have more fun playing a balanced, challenging and competitive game with knockback than admiring textures or ambient sounds while getting destroyed as marines without it. The reason Flayra decided to keep knockback is to keep the game balanced, challenging and competitive.
Some people have made the argument (or tried to) that knockback evens the odds for marines and aliens when it comes to close-range fighting. I see the point, but I don't see the evidence. Skulks have a clear advantage close-range. Its true that marines can sometimes get bitten out of range. This, however, is not a serious disadvantage and definitely does not require the removal of a tested feature of the game. Right now, aliens are definately in better shape when it comes to close-range fighting.
Also, why are the two opposing arguments in this thread necessarily aligned with either pub play or clan play? Taking into account the relative skill levels of average pubbers and clanners, I'd say both pub play and clan play are pretty balanced. Let's assume this is correct. In this case, removing knockback would upset that balance. If marines were winning most of the close-range combat confrontations on pubs or in clan matches, there may be a case for removing knockback. However, this is simply not the case.
Furthermore, it has been argued that this change is more necessary for pubs than clan games, sparking the 'chicken and egg' debate. Considering that ambushing skulks will own the average pub marine, removing knockback will make pub games worse, upsetting the balance more fundamentally than in clan games. You can't blindly tell the marines to 'adapt,' either. The statement has been made that 90% of the community is made up of pubbers. I can't see the removal of knockback helping them have more fun. Most pub marines barely manage to stay alive anyways. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to get killed every time you crossed paths with a crafty skulk before you even knew what happened. (Oh wait, that happened to me all the time between 1.0 and 1.04.) Sure removing knockback would force marines to rethink tactics, but would that removal necessarily make the game more fun?
Its interesting that the pub and clan sections of the NS community are so quick to blame eachother for problems with the game. I don't think, as Forlorn stated earlier, that pub play and clan play are so different. Neither should anyone believe that its impossible for both of them to be balanced. The idea that one should take preference over the other is a non-issue.
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, perhaps as a compromise, if it is at all possible, we remove knockback from targets that are airborn (jumping marines, JPs). This should solve what many of us percieve as the problem, while not feeding the marines to the skulks as others suggest will happen.
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 26 2004, 03:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 26 2004, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just wanted to clairfy my point:
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, perhaps as a compromise, if it is at all possible, we remove knockback from targets that are airborn (jumping marines, JPs). This should solve what many of us percieve as the problem, while not feeding the marines to the skulks as others suggest will happen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for clarifying that. I think I read through all those posts a little too quickly.
You're right. It is a bit silly when marines are knocked back huge distances. I'm not convinced, however, the solution is to completely remove knockback. This would penalize marines for trying to dodge skulk bites and would be counter-intuitive. Knockback should either occur always or not at all.
I don't really know the what can and can't be done with the half life engine, but could extreme cases of knockback be eliminated? This wouldn't eliminate knockback or lessen the amount a marine is pushed normaly, but would get rid of extreme knockback in cases where marines are moving in the air.
Sorry, but I'm still not convinced that knockback is a viable public game option. If anything it FEELS like a bug every time it happens. If the vets want it so bad let's stick it in tournament mode only and then we can be done with with this disagreement. I think this would be the best option to satisfy both public and clan players.
I think influance of KnockBack on a marine from any alien accept the onous should be removed, The KnockBack on the onous remain but vastly reduced to push a small marine back a fare few feet and a heavy armour half the distance of an un armoured marine.
Special K, if knockback doesn't help the marines much(as it's extremely hard to intentionally use to your advantage), and only annoys the aliens, what's the point of having it in?
On Toraks solution, what's wrong with removing the "fly-through-air" knockback, while keeping the extremely small and ignorable one happening when the marine still has contact with the ground? You say that "knockback should either be in or removed", but you don't say why.
EDIT: incase this wasn't clear before, I don't give a damn about the knockback happening when the marine isn't jumping, it's the one which causes them to fly accross the room which bugs me.
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Feb 27 2004, 07:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Feb 27 2004, 07:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Special K, if knockback doesn't help the marines much(as it's extremely hard to intentionally use to your advantage), and only annoys the aliens, what's the point of having it in?
On Toraks solution, what's wrong with removing the "fly-through-air" knockback, while keeping the extremely small and ignorable one happening when the marine still has contact with the ground? You say that "knockback should either be in or removed", but you don't say why.
EDIT: incase this wasn't clear before, I don't give a damn about the knockback happening when the marine isn't jumping, it's the one which causes them to fly accross the room which bugs me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> - Without knockback, marines would get owned (like they did when removing knockback was tested). - Its a little counter-intuitive for the aliens to push marines around with melee attacks when the marines are on the ground, but not in the air. - The easier solution is to <b>reduce</b> knockback while in the air (to acceptable levels) instead of <b>removing</b> it.
<b>Special K</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're right. It is a bit silly when marines are knocked back huge distances.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really know the what can and can't be done with the half life engine, but could extreme cases of knockback be eliminated? This wouldn't eliminate knockback or lessen the amount a marine is pushed normaly, but would get rid of extreme knockback in cases where marines are moving in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- We both believe that extreme knockback is bad; we disagree on how the problem should be fixed. You favor removing while marines are airborne; I believe that it should be reduced to acceptable distances. I hope that clarifies the argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- The easier solution is to reduce knockback while in the air (to acceptable levels) instead of removing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People keep missing the point of NS in of itself. This isn't supposed to be a CS clone where you can dance one on one with any given opponent. What makes NS unique is that it requires BRAINS to think about the bigger picture and not just your own little piece of the action.
If a skulk gets the jump on the marine and they are without backup and that skulk closes into melee range then the marine should die. Even Flayra has agreed with that in principle. That is why marines have range weapons, to AVOID that situation.
There are PLENTY of ways marines can be 'saved' in a situation like that though.
-Toss a grenade before you are attacked, then weapon switch -Start out with the deadly and overpowered pistol for a quick kill -Have a quick fingered comm drop you medpacks/ammo or catalysts -Exploit the game mechanics and strafe jump out of range to give you more time to kill the skulk
If the vets want kncokback in their games so badly, then I'm all for seeing it put in when tournament mode is on. However, when tournament mode is off it only needlessly gives pub marines one more advantage that they do not need.
Are people not seeing the doors in public games? Why do you think that the marine door will have a half-dozen people stacked in it? The simple answer is that marines win more often on PUBS. We don't need to aggravate this situation any further by bad solution to a minor problem. I hardly get to play marines anymore since everytime I join a game the marines already have 2 extra people. They win far too often, and when they lose it is because of commander incompetence and not alien superiority.
If aliens are winning too much in clan games then we need to make MINOR changes that won't impact public play. Knockback is one aspect that DOES affect public play and I am dead set against seeing it on public servers.
Were has 1.04 gone too... I fell in love with 1.04 just to get it messed up by 2.0 and later, now you can have 1 hive onos/fade... its really crap. The balancing for 2.0 was amazingly horrible, khaara won every game, as for 1.04, it was perfectly balanced, an onos would always kill a lone ha rine, but once he would have a buddy, that onos would be raped. As for the bunny hop, its totally fair, it gives rines the melee balancing they need, but throwback is just pointless, because a n00b rine would be disoriented anyway, but when you have really good players on both teams, it doesn't really make a diffirence.
<!--QuoteBegin-Special K+Feb 28 2004, 12:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Special K @ Feb 28 2004, 12:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - We both believe that extreme knockback is bad; we disagree on how the problem should be fixed. You favor removing while marines are airborne; I believe that it should be reduced to acceptable distances. I hope that clarifies the argument. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If "acceptable distances" is half a meter(or less), then sure.
Comments
So I ask you this: Why should tha game be balanced for the upper 10% +/- rather than the rest of the playing population. If knockback is only a detriment to the "unwashed masses" then isn't it a problem for most people that play the game? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why balance the game for the upper 10%? That's easy enough, because it's only the upper 10% who actually understand how to play the game!
On the other hand, pubs have people who like to explore maps, who are learning, who aren't very good at the game, who don't understand proper coordination, etc. etc.
Knockback seems to me more like an cheap excuse for not being able to kill a marine. Why don't you try looking somewhere else to put the blame? That genreally is the number one solution.
Next, knockback, even if it was removed, all you are going to do is encourage people to come to these forums and start whining about why the aliens are so overpowered. Really, knockback is an important balancing factor of the game.
While you guys insist that pub play would improve dramitcally if knockback is removed, all I think is that it will just make the aliens overpowered due to early game dominance.
I say this because I know in clan games clanner marines would get destroyed, and if clanner marines can't win as marines there is no way pubber marines will have a better chance.
KB is the wrong way to balance a game. (IMHO of course.) Only some people can use it and it's still really a matter of luck to time the jump right. In addition, it detracts from the atmosphere of the game.
It's unfortunately that NS has several kludge balances (like teeth that obscure vision and extra large gun flash sprites) that affect balance so differently at different levels of play.
Don't bother addressing those 2 points directly in this thread -- just trying to point out that
-balance in NS is very precarious
-is different at different stages of the game
-is vastly different for different skill levels
-is completely different for different sized games
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That has to be the most elitist drivel I have ever seen on these forums. I don't think I will bother debating anything further with you.
like schmurfy. oh its in the game and it sucks, but we must accept it and everybody who cannot stand it (or master it) is a looooooser.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->funny, since when natural selection is realistic ? do you see a lot of aliens in the streets ? dod is a simulation, ns is absolutely not one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok. then lets make marines jump 30 ft high and make them able to kill with thoughts. since when does a game thats not like dod be totally unrealistic?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->btw marines jumping is not a bug, or anything else and ns is not dod ! stamina bar, pfff... ridiculous... don't you want recoil too ?
If you can't bite a jumping marine, practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty hard to backup your arguments. well... you don't have to, i guess. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now now someone never heard of a thing called balance, that would just make the marines so strong, how about as a counter we make the onos crap exposive poo that runs after mariens and covers them in goo exploding isntantly killing the whole map off. Soudn stupid so does you'r comment.
Jumping is part of the game, its part of half life go develope NS on a diferent game engine if you want it too change. Anyway who sasy the marines don't have some sort of power assisted jumping module in thier armour. Get serious mate and don't post random stupid ****.
Just another thing have you ever been in a fist fight? When you're in a real fight there non of this 'honor' or standing back bradishing fists you get in there and do what ever you have to jump, kick, bite, punch Id jumpa round if ym freaking life depended on it too. There are all sorts of factors to take into account after all its a game, if games where realistic we would be playing games like 'Lets go type out a report for the boss today' or the all time favorite 'Discuss what you did today with the missus' games are games they are meant to be and escape not real life. If you want real go to work, don't play games. If you can't play games that hing slightly on your ability to imagine go and play something safe like monopoly. (Mind you I did swallo a house when I was a child which nearly killed me so maybe that not such a good example)
On the other hand, pubs have people who like to explore maps, who are learning, who aren't very good at the game, who don't understand proper coordination, etc. etc.
Knockback seems to me more like an cheap excuse for not being able to kill a marine. Why don't you try looking somewhere else to put the blame? That genreally is the number one solution.
Next, knockback, even if it was removed, all you are going to do is encourage people to come to these forums and start whining about why the aliens are so overpowered. Really, knockback is an important balancing factor of the game.
While you guys insist that pub play would improve dramitcally if knockback is removed, all I think is that it will just make the aliens overpowered due to early game dominance.
I say this because I know in clan games clanner marines would get destroyed, and if clanner marines can't win as marines there is no way pubber marines will have a better chance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The funny thing about people is that they tend to decide for themselves how the game is supposed to be played.
NS shouldn't be limited to 6v6 scrims and matches. A lot of people like playing 10v10 games. Heck, maybe someday somebody would like to play a somewhat balanced game of 16v16. CAL, UGL and all the other leagues can sod off for all I care. I'd rather clan games go down the toilet and aliens have a chance in big pubs against the hyper-efficient tech rushes the marines always do. But instead, marine weapons, structures and upgrades are being made continually cheaper to appease a vocal minority of the community. You need to stop kidding yourself. Marines will adapt just like the aliens have done so many times.
Just another thing have you ever been in a fist fight? When you're in a real fight there non of this 'honor' or standing back bradishing fists you get in there and do what ever you have to jump, kick, bite, punch Id jumpa round if ym freaking life depended on it too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone that actually has been in either a brawl or athetlics knows that having at least one foot on the ground makes you alot more manueverable, unlike in NS where you can be fastest constantly jumping. Not that realism contributes to this discussion (since non-hopping is atmospheric, not realistic), but I felt the need to wisecrack here as mr. Gorfob has an amusingly bad grip on everyday physics (jumping irl subjects you entirely to inertia [and drag], and throws you off balance. nothing you'd do in a brawl to avoid being hurt).
On topic, but utterly irrelevant commentary:
Maybe the DoD solution would really be the most fun - allow for a type of short-term sprinting for fights, instead of hopping and lower base movement speed a bit. Its not necessarily more realistic than hop-mania, but its almost definitely better and more intuitive gameplay.
[Note : I don't advocate doing it the same way as DoD, where you'll lower your weapon and immediately accelerate to superman-like speeds. A more gradual acceleration and more reasonable speeds but while allowing for your weapon to be used with a mildly increased CoF would be highly preferrable. ]
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The funny thing about people is that they tend to decide for themselves how the game is supposed to be played.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then you follow this statement with your own vision of how the game should be played. You are funny, are you not?
I am funny as well.
Taking out knockback will remove an aesthetic element from NS. No more getting tossed in the air by that Onos. Without knockback, you'll see more marines dying than ever. How are they going to adapt? How do inexperienced players adapt? You're talking about making the game for the pub scene. I haven't seen any adaptation on pubs since 1.04 when I started playing. It is in essence the same game for marines. The strategies are different, but the game is the same. Pub marines can't 'adapt'. Without knockback, perhaps they can learn to be more cautious perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that once a skulk is on them, it is game over. Once that skulk evolves into a fade or an onos, good luck to them.
I'm not sure if marines were really being raped in the build without knockback. I suspect it wasn't just because of lack of knockback that marines were at a disadvantage. I don't think hand grenades were even added/revised at that build.
If marines need some sort of minor advantage, that advantage shouldn't be knockback. It's just a cheap excuse to not fine tune other values.
Sarisel, nobody is talking about removing knockback from gore, so your "aesthetic" argument is irrelevant.
Knockback will make little to no difference unless the marines fail to realize it's been taken out.
Knockback will make little to no difference unless the marines fail to realize it's been taken out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blind or Ignorant, choose one?
Not only has it been PT'ed and put back in by the man himself (Flayra) but other people who have played without KB have all said KB keeps marines from being destroyed.
Knockback will make little to no difference unless the marines fail to realize it's been taken out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blind or Ignorant, choose one?
Not only has it been PT'ed and put back in by the man himself (Flayra) but other people who have played without KB have all said KB keeps marines from being destroyed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it was just tried in one build? That would have given you testers, 2 weeks? to adapt. Seriously, I did NOT jump like crazy previously(because I'm the type that tends to avoid doing to others what I would hate them doing to me- like 'cloakus' just as an example), and did fine. Knockback is in no way necessary to marine survival.
I'm not sure I understand the 'atmospheric effect' that removing knockback would somehow reintroduce into NS. Right now, I'd have more fun playing a balanced, challenging and competitive game with knockback than admiring textures or ambient sounds while getting destroyed as marines without it. The reason Flayra decided to keep knockback is to keep the game balanced, challenging and competitive.
Some people have made the argument (or tried to) that knockback evens the odds for marines and aliens when it comes to close-range fighting. I see the point, but I don't see the evidence. Skulks have a clear advantage close-range. Its true that marines can sometimes get bitten out of range. This, however, is not a serious disadvantage and definitely does not require the removal of a tested feature of the game. Right now, aliens are definately in better shape when it comes to close-range fighting.
Also, why are the two opposing arguments in this thread necessarily aligned with either pub play or clan play? Taking into account the relative skill levels of average pubbers and clanners, I'd say both pub play and clan play are pretty balanced. Let's assume this is correct. In this case, removing knockback would upset that balance. If marines were winning most of the close-range combat confrontations on pubs or in clan matches, there may be a case for removing knockback. However, this is simply not the case.
Furthermore, it has been argued that this change is more necessary for pubs than clan games, sparking the 'chicken and egg' debate. Considering that ambushing skulks will own the average pub marine, removing knockback will make pub games worse, upsetting the balance more fundamentally than in clan games. You can't blindly tell the marines to 'adapt,' either. The statement has been made that 90% of the community is made up of pubbers. I can't see the removal of knockback helping them have more fun. Most pub marines barely manage to stay alive anyways. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to get killed every time you crossed paths with a crafty skulk before you even knew what happened. (Oh wait, that happened to me all the time between 1.0 and 1.04.) Sure removing knockback would force marines to rethink tactics, but would that removal necessarily make the game more fun?
Its interesting that the pub and clan sections of the NS community are so quick to blame eachother for problems with the game. I don't think, as Forlorn stated earlier, that pub play and clan play are so different. Neither should anyone believe that its impossible for both of them to be balanced. The idea that one should take preference over the other is a non-issue.
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, perhaps as a compromise, if it is at all possible, we remove knockback from targets that are airborn (jumping marines, JPs). This should solve what many of us percieve as the problem, while not feeding the marines to the skulks as others suggest will happen.
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Feb 20 2004, 10:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am only concerned about knockback which results in the marine flying across the room, not the small shift in position that happens when you bite a marine that is not airborn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, perhaps as a compromise, if it is at all possible, we remove knockback from targets that are airborn (jumping marines, JPs). This should solve what many of us percieve as the problem, while not feeding the marines to the skulks as others suggest will happen. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for clarifying that. I think I read through all those posts a little too quickly.
You're right. It is a bit silly when marines are knocked back huge distances. I'm not convinced, however, the solution is to completely remove knockback. This would penalize marines for trying to dodge skulk bites and would be counter-intuitive. Knockback should either occur always or not at all.
I don't really know the what can and can't be done with the half life engine, but could extreme cases of knockback be eliminated? This wouldn't eliminate knockback or lessen the amount a marine is pushed normaly, but would get rid of extreme knockback in cases where marines are moving in the air.
Regards,
Savant
Regards,
Eggmac
On Toraks solution, what's wrong with removing the "fly-through-air" knockback, while keeping the extremely small and ignorable one happening when the marine still has contact with the ground? You say that "knockback should either be in or removed", but you don't say why.
EDIT: incase this wasn't clear before, I don't give a damn about the knockback happening when the marine isn't jumping, it's the one which causes them to fly accross the room which bugs me.
On Toraks solution, what's wrong with removing the "fly-through-air" knockback, while keeping the extremely small and ignorable one happening when the marine still has contact with the ground? You say that "knockback should either be in or removed", but you don't say why.
EDIT: incase this wasn't clear before, I don't give a damn about the knockback happening when the marine isn't jumping, it's the one which causes them to fly accross the room which bugs me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- Without knockback, marines would get owned (like they did when removing knockback was tested).
- Its a little counter-intuitive for the aliens to push marines around with melee attacks when the marines are on the ground, but not in the air.
- The easier solution is to <b>reduce</b> knockback while in the air (to acceptable levels) instead of <b>removing</b> it.
<b>Special K</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're right. It is a bit silly when marines are knocked back huge distances.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really know the what can and can't be done with the half life engine, but could extreme cases of knockback be eliminated? This wouldn't eliminate knockback or lessen the amount a marine is pushed normaly, but would get rid of extreme knockback in cases where marines are moving in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
- We both believe that extreme knockback is bad; we disagree on how the problem should be fixed. You favor removing while marines are airborne; I believe that it should be reduced to acceptable distances. I hope that clarifies the argument.
That's an acceptable compromise for me.
If a skulk gets the jump on the marine and they are without backup and that skulk closes into melee range then the marine should die. Even Flayra has agreed with that in principle. That is why marines have range weapons, to AVOID that situation.
There are PLENTY of ways marines can be 'saved' in a situation like that though.
-Toss a grenade before you are attacked, then weapon switch
-Start out with the deadly and overpowered pistol for a quick kill
-Have a quick fingered comm drop you medpacks/ammo or catalysts
-Exploit the game mechanics and strafe jump out of range to give you more time to kill the skulk
If the vets want kncokback in their games so badly, then I'm all for seeing it put in when tournament mode is on. However, when tournament mode is off it only needlessly gives pub marines one more advantage that they do not need.
Are people not seeing the doors in public games? Why do you think that the marine door will have a half-dozen people stacked in it? The simple answer is that marines win more often on PUBS. We don't need to aggravate this situation any further by bad solution to a minor problem. I hardly get to play marines anymore since everytime I join a game the marines already have 2 extra people. They win far too often, and when they lose it is because of commander incompetence and not alien superiority.
If aliens are winning too much in clan games then we need to make MINOR changes that won't impact public play. Knockback is one aspect that DOES affect public play and I am dead set against seeing it on public servers.
Regards,
Savant
Don't you think this topic is old enough ?
If "acceptable distances" is half a meter(or less), then sure.
P S I took the chance to retort
<span style='color:red'>***LOCKED***</span>