Someone Stop The Bunnyhopping!
ThorStryker
Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12025Members
Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12025Members
Bunny Hopping is really starting to get old. I'm tired of taking a bite out of someone only to have them fly 10 feet backwards and smack me in the face with a shotgun round. Even heavies can do it, I've hit a heavy as a fade only to watch him propell him self ten feet away and ace me with an hmg. I can under-stand a marine jumping when an alien comes at him, but when hes able to fly 10 feet away just because you bit him doesent seem very fair. Its hard enough trying to kill a marine without focus in the start because he can launch him self away with the technique. Is this a bug? I don't know, but it feels more like an exploit. Only certain people do it, and its because they know how. I've done it a few times, but never actually learned it because I find it to be incredibly cheap. But all I really wanna say is stop the exploit, last i remember, knock-back was taken out, I still see marines fly if you hit them through the com chair, it may be in conection to this, but if you watch any of the top marines, you'll see them do this when they fight skulks and fades.
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Comments
You're talking about KB. KB is a feature of NS (since 2.0). To an extent it is random.
Although I think just in general marine hopping should be limited to "uesful for jumping on or over some obstacle." When marines get in firefights at close range it's a dance more than anything. If you think about it, it's totally crazy. But it's part of the game, so either accept it or die more often.
This is what I've been wondering about. I might understand if it applied to oni only, but other lifeforms? Nothing is more annoying than biting a marine who then flies slightly backwards, out of your bite range and kills you before you can get that finishing chomp in. It's like RFK - I don't know anyone who likes it, but it's still there <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Jumping takes a lot of stamina that takes a little while to regenerate. That way if you need to jump over something you still can, but spamming jump like its the hurdles will reduce you to a pathetic minihopping crawl - skulk bait.
A space marine and I could perform a 4 foot vertical leap wearing full combat gear and even on the run or while walking backwards? If I were that space marine I would quit the damn marines and make billions playing space basketball or something.
Bunnyhopping doesnt bother me so much, I think hopping in battle has always been a much bigger problem.
funny, since when natural selection is realistic ? do you see a lot of aliens in the streets ? dod is a simulation, ns is absolutely not one.
Electrification: it would require a HUGE power for an electrified res node to attack an alien from so far.
Wepons: great precision and no recoil.
Knife: as effective as a sword.
Commander: dropping building/items from ceiling, seeing everything with no camera <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
natural selection IS NOT a simulation, get used to it, i don't like dod style and i hope ns will never tend towards this.
btw marines jumping is not a bug, or anything else and ns is not dod ! stamina bar, pfff... ridiculous... don't you want recoil too ?
If you can't bite a jumping marine, practice.
PS: marines jumping 10 feet away in battle is really rare with good players and if as an alien you never bite the feet looking at the ceiling, it will never happen at all.
Knockback was taken out in an earlier beta version, I think it was during 2.0. It had such a large effect on balance (marines got owned) Flayra and Max <b>purposefully</b> put it back in.
"Deal with it."
like schmurfy. oh its in the game and it sucks, but we must accept it and everybody who cannot stand it (or master it) is a looooooser.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->funny, since when natural selection is realistic ? do you see a lot of aliens in the streets ? dod is a simulation, ns is absolutely not one. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok. then lets make marines jump 30 ft high and make them able to kill with thoughts. since when does a game thats not like dod be totally unrealistic?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->btw marines jumping is not a bug, or anything else and ns is not dod ! stamina bar, pfff... ridiculous... don't you want recoil too ?
If you can't bite a jumping marine, practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty hard to backup your arguments. well... you don't have to, i guess.
I understand why it is included but it severely hampers my, and plenty of other peoples' immersion. To a certain extent it also hampers the game. As more versions roll around, aliens are losing every ranged attack they had, putting a greater emphasis on the fact that aliens are melee attackers and need to be right next to their targets to kill them. Constant evasive jumping and knockback are two overly effective tools available to marines weaken the primary attack mode of the aliens. What do aliens have to counter-act the marines range advantage that is as basic and simple? Some might say ambush, and umbra. Well both of these things have hard counters built into the marine side, MT/scanner sweep and GL's. The only alien counter to knockback and evasive jumping is to "get better".
I don't often buy into generalisations like "three hive aliens should win" but there is one that I do agree with: When caught at range, an alien should lose the encounter and once a skulk has managed to eliminate that range advantage, either through ambush or superior terrain advantage, the marine should lose. Conversely, once a marine has a range advantage, either the skulk dies or it runs away. Once a skulk has overcome the range advantage, it still has to try and hit a marine that is either jumping like a frog on a grill, or get rewarded by biting the marine, only to have him launched accross the room, putting the marine in the drivers seat again.
Yeah I know this isn't a simulation, but there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed. What next? Marines using grenades to jump across the map? Let's just call it TFC and be done with it. (the fact a marine can fire a grenade at their feet and not die is another aspect that defies logic)
Torak hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that an alien SHOULD win at close range and the marine should win at long range. If a marine gets 'surprized' by a stealthy skulk then he SHOULD die. No second chances. Marines WILL adapt, there is no need to 'dumb down' the game to adapt for them.
The 'hoppy' aspect of NS is probably the single biggest obstacle to NS becoming anything more than an 'average mod'. There is a LOT of stuff that is good in NS, but there are a lot of things that hold it back. Knockback, 'medpack rain' and marines who bounce continuously while firing just remind me that NS will never make the big time if these things aren't changed. Disagree if you like, this is just my opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I think NS is a great mod. It's just too bad that certain things remain since it could be so much more.
Regards,
Savant
(if could write proper english i would have done it myself. can't we introduce another language here ^^)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to see marines get a stamina bar similar to the DoD system to prevent/nerf jumping like a fool in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally not agree with this that's all.
With two player of the same level, jumping won't save you but you can deal more damage to the alien who will be killed by your teammates (in clanwar at least).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->an alien SHOULD win at close range<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it is currently like this...
you should compare two player with equal level...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->like schmurfy. oh its in the game and it sucks, but we must accept it and everybody who cannot stand it (or master it) is a looooooser. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Think what you want but i didnt said anything like this, i just hate peoples thinking they understand the whole game and know what to change 2 hours after they discovered ns...
There are some similar thread on the vet forum about bunny hopping with more than 15 pages on it, but a poll was launched to see whether the vet wanted bunny hopping to be kept as a part of alien skill the result was that a large majority wanted to keep bunny hopping.
If we do a poll on the marines jump, i am sure the result will be the same...
using a stamina bar in ns would be really a bad idea.
it is currently like this...
you should compare two player with equal level...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill level has nothing to do with games physics. In the current game model, skulks are punished for scoring a hit by having to re-close the distance created by knockback. Marines are given a second chance to kill an alien that has already succeeded in overcoming the marines range advantage. Jumping around while being attacked not only makes it harder for the alien to score a hit (not the real problem) but amplifies the distance the marine gets knocked back; especially if the marine has the awareness to bhop (yes they can bhop ONCE) off of that knockback, thereby doubling the knocked-back distance.
Lets flip this around.
What advantage, intended or not, does a skulk gain from being shot by a marine? What can a skulk do counter-act knockback? Don't even say reload time. If a skulk is harassing a marine, in order to have him waste his ammo, he is certainly doing so at range. Even in a perfect situation the marine has time to pull out a pistol or reload while the skulk closes in. If not, one bite can push the marine further away from the attacking alien, buying him more time to reload or switch weapons.
In short, with no knockback, evasively-jumping marines are simply annoying and cosmetically un-appealing. With knockback, evasively-jumping marines get a second chance to kill an attacking skulk, which he should not have because he was unsuccesful while he had the advantage.
I don't even want to get started on how ludicrous it is for an Onos to be pushed back by a vanilla marine's knife.
using a stamina bar in ns would be really a bad idea. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well... i don't like stamina bars too, but knockback combined with marines jumping "like frogs on a grill" is a serious drawback for ns. i know that it maybe unbalanced if one or both would be removed, but its a step in the right direction. the game would need a little bit of balancing afterwards. its same with the hitbox issue in 1.0-2.01. of course you could kill an onos, but inexperienced players didn't hit the the onos at all. you could play that way, but it was suboptimal.
Just because you do not know someone from your clan matches does not mean they are not experienced in NS.
I am so sick of people thinking that just because they play in clan matches they know more about ns and they are smarter and more skilled than other people they don't know.
How about next time use some logic and common sense to prove your points? Instead of simple attempting to belittle other people and hope that they sense your innate superiority and bow to your point of view.
And schmurfy there is a difference between story elements, (alien life forms) and game play elements (physics, unit balance). It is perfectly possible for fantastical story elements to take place in a REALISTIC game play environment. In fact, nearly every game every made attempts to emulate realistic environments and physics, because immersion is very important in any type of game.
And btw: there is no set level of realism or subject matter for a game to be considered a simulation, there is always some level of fiction in anything called a simulation. By definition a simulation is different from real life.
Come with some counter-arguments or just face the fact that you've been beaten.
And, Torak: I love you <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are some similar thread on the vet forum about bunny hopping with more than 15 pages on it, but a poll was launched to see whether the vet wanted bunny hopping to be kept as a part of alien skill the result was that a large majority wanted to keep bunny hopping.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's in the vet forums. Did you consider the rest of the people who read the forums? Or how about those casual players that don't even read the forum? The majority argument is not in your favor, so don't use it.
Good marines can keep track of a skulk at this close range, but even so, close range is really difficult.
As an alien, I never notice kickback, the only time I ever really do is when i'm a marine and using it to keep myself alive and out of the jaws of the skulk's friends.
Stop complaining, learn to live with it, learn to expect it, and learn to kill, despite (or with) it.
There are so many "veterans" that don't know how to even play the game known as Natural-Selection it's rediculous. Therefore, BOTH of your arguements are invalid. The "veteran" program is nothing more than the average pub server.
Last thing i wanted to say is that i am not talking as a clan member but as a player of ns since its first public release (veteran means nothing...) and i won't write another answer in this post since it is now so far away from original topic and i already said i agree on removing the knockback.
Think what you want but i didnt said anything like this, i just hate peoples thinking they understand the whole game and know what to change 2 hours after they discovered ns... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to assume this is aimed at me. What part of my post made you think that A) I think I\ understand the whole game but actually have no idea and B) want to change it two hours after I discovered it. What part of my forum registration date leads you to believe I've just picked up NS?
I was there in 1.0 too - big deal. I remember autotargetting seige guns - wow, arent we both l33t now....
I wanted a stamina bar similar to dod to prevent rediculous bunnyhopping. Think of it as a solution to Torak's problems he put forward.
I don't know what kind of logic you apply here, but this question assumes there is an advantage to being bitten.
Which there is none of.
Carry on.
Type 1: The skulk bites a marine on the ground, who is then pushed about 2 feet to the left and has his view disoriented. This minor distance does NOTHING to your range, although it can sometimes be disorienting for the skulk too, as the Marine might suddenly disappear from your view by moving to the left.
Type 2: The skulk hits a marine who is crouch-jumping in the middle of a jump. Although I haven't EVER seen it myself, from reports this will often cause the marine to fly across the screen a good distance, giving him back that range advantage that you all are complaining about.
Now, there is absolutely no reason to remove the first kind of knockback. It doesn't hurt you as a skulk, especially if you know enough to predict where the marine will be after that slight shove. The second kind is bothersome, yes, but not really terribly common. If you want help avoiding it, try timing your bites to hit the marine when he lands...then he won't go flying.
And from what I've noticed, its when the marine jumps/is still moving upwards, I've never seen a marine fly away if he's bit while landing. So most vets know to jump right when a skulk bites so they can get a cheap kill.