I don't see how removing this version's "Knock Back" Would result in harsh marine ownage, only a few people can do it, and its usually by luck. If a marine wants to survive when a skulk comes at him, he should have five of his buddies backing him up. A single marine can take out multiple skulks at a distance as it is, but he should be penalized if the skulk in right on top of him, not be launched 10 feet away and have "supply" heal him so he can take another hit and survive, if this type of bunnyhopping stays it, it should be a research/upgrade, because its basically giving you a second chance for one non-killing bite.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 22 2004, 07:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 22 2004, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fantasmo, that is some seriously weak reasoning... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b><i>LoL!</i></b>
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knockback is practically the only way a marine can surrive a close range encounter. The other way is to have enough teammates backing him up so that when the skulk drops on him, the skulk then dies fast enough so the marine won't be killed first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So by your (rock solid, never go wrong) reasoning all the marines will have left once KB is removed is teamwork. Have you been reading this thread? Isn't that the point ever single anti-KBers is trying to make?
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You name a map, and I can name several locations where skulks litterally can drop onto a marine's head from a vent, or from a courner in a small hallway, and the poor marine has no chance to stop it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You name a map, and I can name several locations where marines can literally sit at one place, or from the end of a hallway, or the side of a room, and the poor aliens have no chance of closing the distance.
Should we let the aliens emit a dark cloud that obscures them from view so they can be given a feature which allows them to have a second chance in a situation where the aliens have practically no way of surviving the fight?
<b>Forlorn</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, realizing that knockback is in the game to make up for the lack of complexity in the NS maps themselves, I would like to state how knockback does become slightly imbalanced.
Once marines get armor upgrades, they get 3, 4 bites each complete with nice little knockback. This is extreamlly frustrating for a hive 1 skulk, as it becomes extreamlly tough to kill good marines who not only take more abuse, but also can use it to their advantage.
If I were to make any changes to knockback, I would make it so the force applied to a marine's knockback is slightly lessened with each armor upgrade he gets. If you want gameplay reasoning for this, it is because it becomes extreamlly difficult for a skulk, yes, even a good one, to land 3 bites on a marine who is constantly being pushed back a bit. This would be a very common situation, a hive 1 skulk versus a lv. 1 armor marine. The in game 'story' reasoning behind this is that with each armor upgrade, the marine is less meaneverable.
It wouldn't have to be a big reduction in how much less knockback he gets from being bitten; maybe just a few in game inches, but by the time the marine has lv. 3 armor he should be noticably less bouncy than a lv. 0 armor marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You go from KB is fine, to KB should be reduced. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe it isn't that my reasoning is weak, but that you continue to deny the fundamental point of my reasoning (and the reasoning of all the other anti-KBers who have so simply stated and restated the point which you continue to deny... although you seem to be relenting somewhat with you latest <i>lessening</i> of KB idea)
<b>Savant</b> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right now knockback takes away any incentive for marines to work together. Just rambo off on their own and count on good 'ole knockback to save their butt every time. Weak, seriously weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Daxx22+Feb 22 2004, 09:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daxx22 @ Feb 22 2004, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Methinks this should be compiled into a General Chat poll. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Daxx... I absolutely, fantasticaly, boombambasticaly agree with you.
This whole concept of marines always loosing short range is non-sense. I’ve played against lots of aliens who manage to bite me when I’m hoping around strafing and shooting. By your logic an alien could camp a door and a marine could never get through it. The jumping in the game is very unrealistic, but perhaps you could just deal with it by saying there is lower gravity there? No one said that these ships and planets matched earth gravity... The aliens are a melee race, would you prefer if the aliens were humanoids who all used ranged weapons? Then the game would be like any other game out there.
As a skulk I have some trouble dealing with the knock back, but if you predict were it will go and aim there you can take them down easily. Also realize that the quick movement caused by KB helps to throw off the marine’s aimer.
People here complain about not being able to close the distance down long hallways, if you want to do that get a fade. Skulks are not attackers they are ambushers. Do you want god mode on so you can run around and kill marines, think balance! This game would be no fun if aliens could always close the distance.
Name any map I will tell you somewhere aliens can camp and marines better not try to enter or they are screwed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This whole concept of marines always loosing short range is non-sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anybody is saying aliens should have god mode activated up close. However, aliens have gone from being primarily melee to being entirely melee and the removal of knockback would help make up for the loss of virtually all ranged attacks. Besides, marines would still be able to hop around like a hyperactive child on Red Bull. They just wouldn't get thrown out of melee range by getting hit.
Marines have plenty of counters. Motion tracking, armor upgrades, scans/observatories, and moving in teams. Now if only marines had an inexpensive and available weapon that allowed them to compete in close quarters...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People here complain about not being able to close the distance down long hallways, if you want to do that get a fade. Skulks are not attackers they are ambushers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody is disputing that. What we're disputing is that even in an ambush, marines have a solid chance at survival. Removing knockback lessens a marine's chances. Long hallways are ranged. That's marine territory. Marines should and do win there. But when they also win in melee ranged combat, there's a problem.
Marines aren't a sacred cow and have, in my opinion, become very used to the easy life. Aliens have adapted constantly to the often drastic changes they face and marines can do the same.
Not sure if marine groups are really as useful here as people are saying. Say there's an alien at a narrow point. The marines are going to get into each other's line of fire, so only the ones in front will really be doing damage - and they're the ones getting shredded. When they fall, the ones they blocked begin to do damage, most likely with emptying magazines, and they're still blocking others. A fade could absorb all this and take entire layers out of the group before running off. A skulk would certainly get the point man, and most probably others. Knockback makes the aliens move into the group a little, and sort of spreads things out. Or that's what I'm thinking, anyway.
It's ridiculous to suggest that marines shouldn't be able to go through a doorway or turn a corner without having to rely on a perfect shotgun blast to save them. They could just camp in combat, but when they have to move around in classic, there's no way they could compete. Hell, even if they knew there was something around the corner with MT or a scan, what could they do about it? Grenades are both limited and avoidable, after all, and they seem to be the only option. You could have three skulks with regen completely block off a doorway by rotating when each takes damage.
Say there's a group of marines. They hear a skulk ahead. Now, this is the "tricky" part. Send one ahead (in view) to scout. Either he spots the skulk and kills it OR the skulk gets him but dies to the marines behind. Incredible huh. Marines using teamwork. The way the original design called for.
Now pretend that the "scout" has to move out of the others's line of vision. Or, alternately, that the skulk's clever enough to put the chew toy marine between him and them, thereby not taking enough damage to be killed.
And even in your scenario, you're basically trading a player for a player. That's no way to get anywhere, especially when skulks are the ones deciding where the "ambush" is going to take place and can get there faster after respawn.
The thing is...if that camping skulk kills ONE marine and then dies, the Alien team has won that encounter, because the powerful teamed-up group of marines is now substantially less powerful by being a smaller group. Now, I have no objection to that camping skulk having an ADVANTAGE in his ambush situation, just as marines have an ADVANTAGE in ranged situations...but it should not be a guaranteed kill. He should still have to fight for it.
I will admit that camping marines are rather harder to dislodge than camping Aliens...but that is made up for by the fact that the res dynamics of NSClassic force marines to move out and cross new, uncontrolled areas to reach vital points on a regular basis. If the marines simply sit around and camp certain areas, the Aliens will overrun the remainder of the map and then build up to a powerlevel where they can handle campers (Onoses and things).
This is rather different in very large games (12v12). There the marines have enough manpower they can realistically camp a huge portion of the map...but thats an argument for a different day.
Admit it, if there are 2-3+ rines and a skulk comes up nearby he is dead meat. That's the way it's supposed to be even if the marines arent elitist clanners, but its NOT always the other way around. As a lone marine I can kill several, maybe at least 4-5 skulks in one life in the beginnig of the game, and when the marines start to tech it'll only get worse.
I actually made a little experiment yesterday. When a skulk came up nearby I didnt allow myself to jump, I just circlestrafed and ducked when necessary. To my surprise, this worked almost better than jumping like a mad cow on steroids.
And Forlorn, you sound as if KB will be removed all you have to do is see a skulk on 50 m distance and you will be dead. This is SO not true. If a marine can aim the skulk will be dead, if he's not extremly close up.
I don't Undertand why we always talk about marines doing teamwork and aliens alone. And Look, aliens are faster, so they can cover all the map in a couple of seconds. And there is no problem with KB if you work in pair <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A last thing. With KB the marine won't fly 50 meters away. There are no maps where there is a 50 mt hallway.
On the other hand, perhaps limiting this kb could be good.
<!--QuoteBegin-B1lly+Feb 23 2004, 01:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (B1lly @ Feb 23 2004, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't Undertand why we always talk about marines doing teamwork and aliens alone. And Look, aliens are faster, so they can cover all the map in a couple of seconds. And there is no problem with KB if you work in pair <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A last thing. With KB the marine won't fly 50 meters away. There are no maps where there is a 50 mt hallway.
On the other hand, perhaps limiting this kb could be good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think that you've ever experienced a big KB :/
The thing that differs the marines from the aliens are that, especially in clanmatches, you'll need 2-3 gorges in the beginning. That leaves 3-4 skulks that are supposed to gain territory, map control, meanwhile they are harassing the marines and stopping them from expanding. If they are forced to work in pairs (which they already are a lot of the time), they can't cover much of the map at once, and they'll have to constantly move around, meanwhile, the marines can gain map control and build at the same time, since the comm drops the rts for them.
This isn't a big problem on a small map, like eclipse and a mid-sized map like veil, but on a huge map like nothing it can become quite a problem. I almost don't know the new maps yet so I can't comment on them <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well, what i wanted to say, is that while killing a marine in a group of 3 or 4 (in cw you can hardly see a group of 4, don't u think?) does a great damage to teamplay and attack of the marines because the marine's slow movement, a kill of a skulk doesn't means this problem.
Is not a couple of seconds, right, but it's an eternity for the marine's team to back up the killed one...
<!--QuoteBegin--_Phoenix_-+Feb 23 2004, 01:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Feb 23 2004, 01:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Assuming KB got removed, and marines began to get owned, what would the anti-KB faction do about it ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You could fiddle about with bite damage, bite speed, marine health and marine armour.
Add an extra bite until death here, tenth of a second between bites extra there. Increase field durability through higher armour levels and a few other things that could be made to beef the marines up slightly to compensate for NORMAL kickback whilst still removing silly levels of kickback.
<!--QuoteBegin--_Phoenix_-+Feb 23 2004, 03:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Feb 23 2004, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Assuming KB got removed, and marines began to get owned, what would the anti-KB faction do about it ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It was only recently(sometime before public 3.0) that I started hopping in encounters with skulks. It makes nearly no difference(but that little bit is enough to make me do it-esp. with knockback if I get lucky). Strafe. Marines <b>will not</b> 'get owned' in close encounters[if KB is removed] unless he is alone, and that happens now as well(if less). Or if the marine insists on jumping alot.
I'm sure the Veterans will just strafe instead and do fine. Eventually the skulks will learn to counter-strafe and it will be a match of skills, rather than "who can utilize the most bugs in the game to his/her advantage".
<!--QuoteBegin-Align+Feb 23 2004, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Align @ Feb 23 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--_Phoenix_-+Feb 23 2004, 03:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Feb 23 2004, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Assuming KB got removed, and marines began to get owned, what would the anti-KB faction do about it ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was only recently(sometime before public 3.0) that I started hopping in encounters with skulks. It makes nearly no difference(but that little bit is enough to make me do it-esp. with knockback if I get lucky). Strafe. Marines <b>will not</b> 'get owned' in close encounters[if KB is removed] unless he is alone, and that happens now as well(if less). Or if the marine insists on jumping alot.
I'm sure the Veterans will just strafe instead and do fine. Eventually the skulks will learn to counter-strafe and it will be a match of skills, rather than "who can utilize the most bugs in the game to his/her advantage". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly.
The players will adapt and marines will have to think twice before they wander away on their own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If people learned to play as teams instead of complaining about getting owned when they are off running solo then we could focus on bigger issues instead of nerfing the game to oblivion with cheap additions like knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You all seem to hold the misconception that being alone means you aren't using teamwork.
Which is not true. Flayra made this game so that there is a unique dynamic for both sides:
- Firepower vs. Map Control
Having a marine 'rambo' does not equate to not having teamwork. Sorry, but this is not true.
You can stick multiple marines in one area so that they are maximizing firepower and guarenting sucess of their battles, or you could spread out the marines so you can cap RT's faster. However, once they are alone they become more vulerable.
Now, almost all of the anti-KB people in here seem to think this a bad thing.
For me, as I have played in almost 100 scrims/matches combined, I have yet to see a <b>single</b> marine win that did not entail the use of 'rambo's'.
Unless marines spread themselves out so that they can keep a hold on the RT game, they will lose, almost guarenteed.
KB is there so that marine rambo's can actually surrive against skulks who can't kill them. Or at least give them a chance. Even with KB, keeping alive a marine 'rambo' against good skulks usually involves the comm dropping him a medpack or two.
Without KB you put a serious detrement into the marine's ability to expand, which is a bad thing and will seriously throw off the game's balance.
Next, most of the arguments from the anti-KB in here all originate from the idea that "I got killed, it must have been because the marine flew back one foot after I bit him! Yeah, that's it!!"
God forbid you start looking where the problem may actually be, such as yourself! Even with KB, I have no problem killing the best of marines if I can get a good ambush on them. KB is just the game's way of allowing the more skilled to simply overpower the less skilled in a straight up slug fest. Don't like it? Learn to not miss your bites, learn to bhop after them better, but the tools to succeed in these games where "KB SAVED TEH MARINE!!!11" are indeed there.
You guys make it sound like the skulks have no chance. While yes, skulks are much weaker than the standard marine, I do not give this credit to KB. I simply look at what KB has to offer to the game, and I look at a game without KB has to offer. As I stated before, a game without KB would be seriously gimped as it would completely turn NS into a game of numbers, and the overall feel would become much slower, and with less possibilities.
The scenerio:
- A marine walks through a small doorway, one skulk waits overhead, unbeknowest to the marine. Marine walks through, is bitten on the head, he quickly turns mid air and starts shooting the skulk, who is quickly approaching!
A game with KB:
-- The skulk was careful, and started to bhop and keep up his speed after landing on the marine and never lost track of the marine. He quickly lands the next bite, and looks for his next target.
-- The skulk loses his target for half a second, which is all the time the marine needed to kill the skulk before the second bite came close. The marine continues to hunt for res.
-- Both the skulk and the marine are thrown off, the marine frantically seaches for the skulk, and the skulk lost his momentum after the first bite, and is despirately going after the marine! The marine starts shooting, and the skulk can't seem to start up a bhop to close the distance fast enough!
--- The marine can't seem to get a bead on the skulk, and the skulk then lands the second bite, and surrives with 10 hp. Close one skulkeh.
--- The marine can't seem to get a bead on the skulk, but luckily for him the comm was watching him and drops a med. The marine takes another bite, and doesn't get pushed back too much from this bite, but he still gets the time to finish off the skulk. He lives with 25 hp and zero armor.
--- The marine quickly gets a bead on the skulk and kills it.
A game without KB:
-- Marine walks through the doorway, skulk starts biting the marine, marine starts to frantically look for the skulk, but before he even could find where the skulk hid he's already dead.
-- Marine walks through the doorway, skulk starts biting the marine, marine starts to frantically look for the skulk, but before the skulk can drop his second bite a medpack lands on the marine. The marine finds the skulk and tries to move away from it, but it was way too late as the 3rd bite came fast enough to put the marine out of his miserly along with 2 of the comm's res.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure as hell would prefer a game with KB. Removing it would only kill possible scenerio's and make the game more boring. Wake up, this is an FPS, action is part of what it entails.
Okey Forlorn, so basicly what you're saying is that you want a game where aliens don't stand a chance long-range, and can fight a fair fight close-up. That's not what *I* want.
I want a game where marines NEEDS to stick together to win. I think that by removing KB, making it LOTS smaller, nerfing the marine jumping in combat or making the marine view bob a LOT when he get bitten, this will be completed.
I just came back from a CO game where one team consisted of vets (and me) and the other one with regular pubers. As marines, the vets simply pwnd the hell outta the pubbers, but as aliens, it was a long, slow death for the pubbers.
Why is this? Because the skulks couldn't touch the vets since they were backward jumping / Using KB to survive. I can actually admit that the pubbers had better teamplay, the actually organized ambushes and such, but a group of 2+ vets backwardsjumping and using KB was just too hard to kill for them, even though the skill level was above avarage.
I just say that if KB were removed I think that skilled skulks would become even more skilled, skilled marine would have to think twice and start actually avoid skulks more.
Without KB (or some other nerf to marines close up combat) i think the game would be far more fun, and probably more balanced.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Having a marine 'rambo' does not equate to not having teamwork.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think the key here is that it does not NECESSARILY equate to not having teamwork, but it CAN equate to not having teamwork. People who run off on their own with no regard to the marine objectives are not helping the team. I think we can all agree on that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can stick multiple marines in one area so that they are maximizing firepower and guarenting sucess of their battles, or you could spread out the marines so you can cap RT's faster. However, once they are alone they become more vulerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I actually agree with this point in principle. The problem is that you disagree with your own point. Knockback takes away a HUGE chunk of marine vulnerability when they are alone. If the vulnerability isn't there then the risk isn't there, and if the risk isn't there the marines have the advantage.
We can agree to disagree here, but I will NEVER believe that a marine should have an advantage in a situation where they are alone and surprized by an alien. If they get themselves in a situation like that then that's too bad. Call the comm for medpacks or backup, but don't expect the game to save you. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->KB is there so that marine rambo's can actually surrive against skulks who can't kill them. Or at least give them a chance. Even with KB, keeping alive a marine 'rambo' against good skulks usually involves the comm dropping him a medpack or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Medpacks I would agree with, knockback I wouldn't. If a comm wants to take the risk of sending out a marine solo, then he should have to pay more attention to him with medpack/ammo drops. The problem with knockback is that it makes solo marines that much more self sufficient, and that is just plain wrong. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, most of the arguments from the anti-KB in here all originate from the idea that "I got killed, it must have been because the marine flew back one foot after I bit him! Yeah, that's it!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Death is part of the game and I don't think anyone expects to win every battle. However the scores tell the story. Skulks are getting owned right now, and knockback is a significant reason why. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure as hell would prefer a game with KB. Removing it would only kill possible scenerio's and make the game more boring. Wake up, this is an FPS, action is part of what it entails. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe we are playing different games, but I had plenty of excitement when KB was disabled in previous builds.
The problem seems to be that some people seem to think that marines need an extra advantage, and I do not.
If things were different, I MIGHT consider it, but right now it is far too easy for marines to own the map if they spread out. Aliens have to have 1/3 to 1/2 of their team going gorge in the beginning so that they can cap nodes, which leaves the aliens shorthanded AND responsible for working the entire map AND attacking marines.
If it was free to gorge and OCs were cheap, then I could see how KB <i><b>might</b></i> have a place in the game. However, aliens usually never get an OC up until after the second hive is dropped, let alone before that. This gives marines the opportunity to own the map AND with KB they win more of the crucial early battles. That's not balance, that rediculous.
The problem seems to be that some people like certain aspects of the game and they are unwilling to see those aspects changed for the greater good of the game. This is a BETA, it's meant to be in flux. There are things that have been in the game that I absolutely <b>LOVED</b>, (eg, babblers) but I understand and support why they were removed.
Right now marines are winning too many battles with skulks. When everything is said and done this MUST change. Nerfing the skulk armor was bad enough, adding knockback was just plain counter-productive. I've been beta-testing games for years, and I've goten to know what works and what doesn't. I loved babblers but I knew they had to go. Marine bunnyhopping (real bunny-hppping and not what we are discussing here) was also fun but had to go as well. The greater good of the game MUST prevail over the individual whims of its players.
I've seen too many games die because of poor balance decisions, I just don't want that to happen here.
Look at the Firearms mod. It won best mod of the year (many times) back in its day and <b>it beat out CS to do it!</b> Given the popularity of CS, do you realise how significant that is? So what killed Firearms? In my opinion, a few things:
-poor balance in certain areas that allowed people to abuse certain weapons to the point where individual server ops banned people who used those weapons or put in meta-mods to prevent their use -poor decisions by the developers that catered too much to competitive play without taking into account public play - now there are never more than a dozen active servers (with players) running at any given time -poor developer communication with the public and a lack of interatcion with those who would play the game.
The big killer was balance though. It just wasn't there.
I'm seeing the same trends in NS. It's a great mod, but the balance keeps getting tossed out the window to make the game appeal to a small group of vocal players instead of looking at the bigger picture and the player base as a whole.
Knockback is just another small aspect that detracts from NS as a game. Next thing you know they will put bunny-hopping back in for marines because some people think it involves 'skill' to do it. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Knockback was removed for good reason and I think it was a bad idea to undo the good that was done by putting it back in. People are free to disagree, but that doesn't make KB any less a bad idea.
All it does is make NS that much less of a good game.
I think part of the reason NS isn't getting super successful yet is because:
- It's a hard game to learn - The skill curve is sharp - NS has yet to be put on Valve's official 'games' list on steam
You know, in one point I'll give you Savant, and that is that KB frustrates people that are trying to learn the game to no end.
However, you still don't acknoweldge my arguments, that KB is needed because:
- It's vital to balance between rambo'ing and map control - Adds diversity to the game in terms of skill
So I was thinking... you know there is a varible called mp_tournamentmode, right? <u>Make it so KB is only on when the varible is turned on.</u>
Finally, what killed FA more than anything, in my honest oppinion, is that the FA had a choice to either to appeal to the vets of it's game or the public... instead, it didn't do either, and it just failed.
Making KB a variable just makes it harder to know what kind of game you're going to play when you join a server. Bad idea.
Of course Forlorn wants KB in. As he said, he's played 100s of clan matches with it and does well with it in. Why would he want a change. However, the fact that NS is not growing at more then a glacial pace hints that there are problems with NS gameplay. It's simply not fun enough for the majority of gamers. So we can keep Forlorn (as a representative of players happy with current marine play) or we can look for ways to make the game more broadly appealing (or technically we can make it appeal to a different niche audience). And that decision is up to Flayra.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, you still don't acknoweldge my arguments, that KB is needed because:
- It's vital to balance between rambo'ing and map control - Adds diversity to the game in terms of skill<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mashing my jump key is not exactly a terribly diverse skill, and thats all thats required of the marine to get high knockback. You'll have trouble arguing that this is fun - if marines desperately need such a boost, they should get it in a less *** way.
Finally, the real problem with the whole thing is not the hopping alone. Its basicly a grand conspiracy against the 3.0 skulk when you take a look at it. For starters, as several people have mentioned you'll probably be down 2 people versus the Marine team (Them suffering -1 from the Commander, you suffering -3 for Gorges). In an 8on8, thats 7 Marines vs 5 Skulks - Marines that will likely be spawning at one every 5 seconds vs one every 8 seconds for Skulks. When its a necessity to attack Marines in groups, that means the whole Marine team could regroup with its numerical advantage in 35 seconds as opposed to 40 seconds for the smaller Skulk team.
Now, add in Armor1 for those marines, which they can have witin 90-300 seconds of game start. While bhopping after a 'rine ONCE is no big deal, the odds of surviving a second bhop after the same guy with his buddys tracking you are awefully bad. Its true that in a 1v1 it'd be silly to blame your loss entirely on KnockBack effects - in a 7v5 clusterfugg you'd be quite right to blame the fact it'll easily take you up to 5 seconds to take down a single 'rine on KB.
So we can probably agree, a single Armor 1 'rine vs a single vanilla Skulk has a pretty fair chance even upclose - thanks to those 3 bites and KB. In a group, Marine range advantages work alot better and you can consider those Skulks raped. The only way in a competitive classic match Skulks stand a decent chance is probably via Celerity and MC - probably the best chamber for competitive play anyway.
I won't argue with you that while it takes only 2 bites things are pretty even, right after that the game tilts heavily towards 'rine advantage. The only reason Aliens win competitive matches is a) MC b) their small size allowing for early Fades/super early Lerks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Feb 23 2004, 03:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Feb 23 2004, 03:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, you still don't acknoweldge my arguments, that KB is needed because:
- It's vital to balance between rambo'ing and map control - Adds diversity to the game in terms of skill<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that KB provides 'map control' balance or adds skill diversity.
A solo marine has a comm that can save their butt if they get ambushed. How much more does a solo marine need?
-all maps are designed for 'humans' (ie - no alien environments) and so the layouts are usually wide and open in most areas -vents are limited and ambush locations are restricted to a small number of spots on each map. -marines can count on the commander for extra ammo -marines can count on the commander for extra health ... before, <b>DURING</b> and after a battle -marines can shoot long range and kill aliens before they get within melee range
I could go on and on, but the point is very valid. Marines have it relatively easy, and there is no justification for knockback in normal circumstances. (in my opinion)
Perhaps there is a different psychology here because of the innate difference between clan play and pub play. I'm looking at this from a strictly public perspective. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I was thinking... you know there is a varible called mp_tournamentmode, right? <u>Make it so KB is only on when the varible is turned on.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's an excellent compromise if you ask me. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> I'm fine with that if the majority of vets are. You know what issues are important for clan games moreso than I would. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, what killed FA more than anything, in my honest oppinion, is that the FA had a choice to either to appeal to the vets of it's game or the public... instead, it didn't do either, and it just failed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, they didn't do either because they swung from side to side. Initially they appealed to everyone, and the clans got interested. So the devs made some major modifications that were very much geared to clan play. This alienated the pubbers (who left in droves) and when the devs went and started making FA more pub friendly the clanners left. So they ended up alienating everyone since they tried too hard to make the game to appeal to one particular group.
"all maps are designed for 'humans' (ie - no alien environments) and so the layouts are usually wide and open in most areas -vents are limited and ambush locations are restricted to a small number of spots on each map. -marines can count on the commander for extra ammo -marines can count on the commander for extra health ... before, DURING and after a battle -marines can shoot long range and kill aliens before they get within melee range"
umm.. aliens move around the map faster just so you know. Their are also more small areas or hallways and small corridors then open areas.
aliens never need ammo, or anyone to give them anything.
aliens can't count on a gorge OR regen to heal... hmm much easier to auto heal then to beg a com for 10 minutes.
-aliens can cling on ceilings or hide around the corner and amush marines before they even fire a shot.
So I don't see your point at all. Your trying to make it sound easier for marines when in fact its pretty much equal if not better for aliens.
Hes trying to imply the fact that if the com concentrates on a rambo marine (For a vital objective.) He can Spam health packs on him if he gets into fights with skulks, unless the skulks have focus, they are **** out of luck when the commander spawns health packets. As for aliens, you dont get 90 health/sec as a skulk now do you?
The com has the ability to use the Obs to ping locations and see whats going on, not to mention once they research motion tracking its impossible to hide. Just give a marine a shotgun with motion tracking and it doesent matter the distance, with Health Rain he can survive forever untill he encounters a heavy unit. But marines still need to go out in force, sure, that skulk bit the marine in front, but he died, the marine can go to the back of the group and wait for the com to heal him. Regen for a skulk is pointless since its versatility in getting around makes it faster to run back to the hive. Not to mention Cara is more vital to the skulk anyways.
As for energy, when Skulks have leap, it can seriously deplete its energy with two leaps, unless it has Adren(Most skulks would opt for Silence because its more useful.)
Aliens don't have it hard when a rambo isnt being watched by the com other than kb, its harder when the com is helping the rambo, its even more hard when its a group of rines, and its the hardest when its a group of rines with a welder and Health Rain. Give the skulks a break, they can't do much other than ambush with luck. Not to mention shotguns eat them alive at close range.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheGivingTree+Feb 23 2004, 06:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGivingTree @ Feb 23 2004, 06:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I don't see your point at all. Your trying to make it sound easier for marines when in fact its pretty much equal if not better for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No it isn't. I didn't even mention motion tracking, which gives marines their own personal wall-hack so you always know where all the aliens are. There's no excuse for marine incompetence.
Marines have plenty of advantages, and their ONLY disadvantage is that they are vunerable in melee range. I don't see any legitimate reason for that to change. Knockback is a penalty to aliens for scoring hits, which makes no sense whatsoever.
You do realize motion tracking only works on MOVING aliens, right? The idea behind an ambush is that you are staying still for awhile and waiting for something to wander by. Motion tracking just means you have to set up your ambushes a bit ahead of time.
Yes, If I'm running forward and see one MT circle close in front of me disappear, I'll assume the alien stopped there...but its impossible for a marine to keep track of all the aliens on the whole map simultaneously even with MT, so as long as that marine isn't real near you when you stop moving, you will be hidden again. Even if he is skilled enough to notice your paricular circle disappearing, and to remember where it was on his screen, from any decent range its impossible to tell exactly what map segment was represented by that location on his screen.
Comments
<b><i>LoL!</i></b>
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Knockback is practically the only way a marine can surrive a close range encounter. The other way is to have enough teammates backing him up so that when the skulk drops on him, the skulk then dies fast enough so the marine won't be killed first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So by your (rock solid, never go wrong) reasoning all the marines will have left once KB is removed is teamwork. Have you been reading this thread? Isn't that the point ever single anti-KBers is trying to make?
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You name a map, and I can name several locations where skulks litterally can drop onto a marine's head from a vent, or from a courner in a small hallway, and the poor marine has no chance to stop it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You name a map, and I can name several locations where marines can literally sit at one place, or from the end of a hallway, or the side of a room, and the poor aliens have no chance of closing the distance.
Should we let the aliens emit a dark cloud that obscures them from view so they can be given a feature which allows them to have a second chance in a situation where the aliens have practically no way of surviving the fight?
<b>Forlorn</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, realizing that knockback is in the game to make up for the lack of complexity in the NS maps themselves, I would like to state how knockback does become slightly imbalanced.
Once marines get armor upgrades, they get 3, 4 bites each complete with nice little knockback. This is extreamlly frustrating for a hive 1 skulk, as it becomes extreamlly tough to kill good marines who not only take more abuse, but also can use it to their advantage.
If I were to make any changes to knockback, I would make it so the force applied to a marine's knockback is slightly lessened with each armor upgrade he gets. If you want gameplay reasoning for this, it is because it becomes extreamlly difficult for a skulk, yes, even a good one, to land 3 bites on a marine who is constantly being pushed back a bit. This would be a very common situation, a hive 1 skulk versus a lv. 1 armor marine. The in game 'story' reasoning behind this is that with each armor upgrade, the marine is less meaneverable.
It wouldn't have to be a big reduction in how much less knockback he gets from being bitten; maybe just a few in game inches, but by the time the marine has lv. 3 armor he should be noticably less bouncy than a lv. 0 armor marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You go from KB is fine, to KB should be reduced. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe it isn't that my reasoning is weak, but that you continue to deny the fundamental point of my reasoning (and the reasoning of all the other anti-KBers who have so simply stated and restated the point which you continue to deny... although you seem to be relenting somewhat with you latest <i>lessening</i> of KB idea)
EDiT: TyPoS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Right now knockback takes away any incentive for marines to work together. Just rambo off on their own and count on good 'ole knockback to save their butt every time. Weak, seriously weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i><b>*Thundering Applause*</i></b>
Daxx... I absolutely, fantasticaly, boombambasticaly agree with you.
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As a skulk I have some trouble dealing with the knock back, but if you predict were it will go and aim there you can take them down easily. Also realize that the quick movement caused by KB helps to throw off the marine’s aimer.
People here complain about not being able to close the distance down long hallways, if you want to do that get a fade. Skulks are not attackers they are ambushers. Do you want god mode on so you can run around and kill marines, think balance! This game would be no fun if aliens could always close the distance.
Name any map I will tell you somewhere aliens can camp and marines better not try to enter or they are screwed.
I don't think anybody is saying aliens should have god mode activated up close. However, aliens have gone from being primarily melee to being entirely melee and the removal of knockback would help make up for the loss of virtually all ranged attacks. Besides, marines would still be able to hop around like a hyperactive child on Red Bull. They just wouldn't get thrown out of melee range by getting hit.
Marines have plenty of counters. Motion tracking, armor upgrades, scans/observatories, and moving in teams. Now if only marines had an inexpensive and available weapon that allowed them to compete in close quarters...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->People here complain about not being able to close the distance down long hallways, if you want to do that get a fade. Skulks are not attackers they are ambushers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody is disputing that. What we're disputing is that even in an ambush, marines have a solid chance at survival. Removing knockback lessens a marine's chances. Long hallways are ranged. That's marine territory. Marines should and do win there. But when they also win in melee ranged combat, there's a problem.
Marines aren't a sacred cow and have, in my opinion, become very used to the easy life. Aliens have adapted constantly to the often drastic changes they face and marines can do the same.
It's ridiculous to suggest that marines shouldn't be able to go through a doorway or turn a corner without having to rely on a perfect shotgun blast to save them. They could just camp in combat, but when they have to move around in classic, there's no way they could compete. Hell, even if they knew there was something around the corner with MT or a scan, what could they do about it? Grenades are both limited and avoidable, after all, and they seem to be the only option. You could have three skulks with regen completely block off a doorway by rotating when each takes damage.
And even in your scenario, you're basically trading a player for a player. That's no way to get anywhere, especially when skulks are the ones deciding where the "ambush" is going to take place and can get there faster after respawn.
I will admit that camping marines are rather harder to dislodge than camping Aliens...but that is made up for by the fact that the res dynamics of NSClassic force marines to move out and cross new, uncontrolled areas to reach vital points on a regular basis. If the marines simply sit around and camp certain areas, the Aliens will overrun the remainder of the map and then build up to a powerlevel where they can handle campers (Onoses and things).
This is rather different in very large games (12v12). There the marines have enough manpower they can realistically camp a huge portion of the map...but thats an argument for a different day.
Admit it, if there are 2-3+ rines and a skulk comes up nearby he is dead meat. That's the way it's supposed to be even if the marines arent elitist clanners, but its NOT always the other way around. As a lone marine I can kill several, maybe at least 4-5 skulks in one life in the beginnig of the game, and when the marines start to tech it'll only get worse.
I actually made a little experiment yesterday. When a skulk came up nearby I didnt allow myself to jump, I just circlestrafed and ducked when necessary. To my surprise, this worked almost better than jumping like a mad cow on steroids.
And Forlorn, you sound as if KB will be removed all you have to do is see a skulk on 50 m distance and you will be dead. This is SO not true. If a marine can aim the skulk will be dead, if he's not extremly close up.
A last thing. With KB the marine won't fly 50 meters away. There are no maps where there is a 50 mt hallway.
On the other hand, perhaps limiting this kb could be good.
A last thing. With KB the marine won't fly 50 meters away. There are no maps where there is a 50 mt hallway.
On the other hand, perhaps limiting this kb could be good. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that you've ever experienced a big KB :/
The thing that differs the marines from the aliens are that, especially in clanmatches, you'll need 2-3 gorges in the beginning. That leaves 3-4 skulks that are supposed to gain territory, map control, meanwhile they are harassing the marines and stopping them from expanding. If they are forced to work in pairs (which they already are a lot of the time), they can't cover much of the map at once, and they'll have to constantly move around, meanwhile, the marines can gain map control and build at the same time, since the comm drops the rts for them.
This isn't a big problem on a small map, like eclipse and a mid-sized map like veil, but on a huge map like nothing it can become quite a problem. I almost don't know the new maps yet so I can't comment on them <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Is not a couple of seconds, right, but it's an eternity for the marine's team to back up the killed one...
You could fiddle about with bite damage, bite speed, marine health and marine armour.
Add an extra bite until death here, tenth of a second between bites extra there. Increase field durability through higher armour levels and a few other things that could be made to beef the marines up slightly to compensate for NORMAL kickback whilst still removing silly levels of kickback.
It was only recently(sometime before public 3.0) that I started hopping in encounters with skulks. It makes nearly no difference(but that little bit is enough to make me do it-esp. with knockback if I get lucky). Strafe.
Marines <b>will not</b> 'get owned' in close encounters[if KB is removed] unless he is alone, and that happens now as well(if less). Or if the marine insists on jumping alot.
I'm sure the Veterans will just strafe instead and do fine. Eventually the skulks will learn to counter-strafe and it will be a match of skills, rather than "who can utilize the most bugs in the game to his/her advantage".
It was only recently(sometime before public 3.0) that I started hopping in encounters with skulks. It makes nearly no difference(but that little bit is enough to make me do it-esp. with knockback if I get lucky). Strafe.
Marines <b>will not</b> 'get owned' in close encounters[if KB is removed] unless he is alone, and that happens now as well(if less). Or if the marine insists on jumping alot.
I'm sure the Veterans will just strafe instead and do fine. Eventually the skulks will learn to counter-strafe and it will be a match of skills, rather than "who can utilize the most bugs in the game to his/her advantage". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly.
The players will adapt and marines will have to think twice before they wander away on their own.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If people learned to play as teams instead of complaining about getting owned when they are off running solo then we could focus on bigger issues instead of nerfing the game to oblivion with cheap additions like knockback.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You all seem to hold the misconception that being alone means you aren't using teamwork.
Which is not true. Flayra made this game so that there is a unique dynamic for both sides:
- Firepower vs. Map Control
Having a marine 'rambo' does not equate to not having teamwork. Sorry, but this is not true.
You can stick multiple marines in one area so that they are maximizing firepower and guarenting sucess of their battles, or you could spread out the marines so you can cap RT's faster. However, once they are alone they become more vulerable.
Now, almost all of the anti-KB people in here seem to think this a bad thing.
For me, as I have played in almost 100 scrims/matches combined, I have yet to see a <b>single</b> marine win that did not entail the use of 'rambo's'.
Unless marines spread themselves out so that they can keep a hold on the RT game, they will lose, almost guarenteed.
KB is there so that marine rambo's can actually surrive against skulks who can't kill them. Or at least give them a chance. Even with KB, keeping alive a marine 'rambo' against good skulks usually involves the comm dropping him a medpack or two.
Without KB you put a serious detrement into the marine's ability to expand, which is a bad thing and will seriously throw off the game's balance.
Next, most of the arguments from the anti-KB in here all originate from the idea that "I got killed, it must have been because the marine flew back one foot after I bit him! Yeah, that's it!!"
God forbid you start looking where the problem may actually be, such as yourself! Even with KB, I have no problem killing the best of marines if I can get a good ambush on them. KB is just the game's way of allowing the more skilled to simply overpower the less skilled in a straight up slug fest. Don't like it? Learn to not miss your bites, learn to bhop after them better, but the tools to succeed in these games where "KB SAVED TEH MARINE!!!11" are indeed there.
You guys make it sound like the skulks have no chance. While yes, skulks are much weaker than the standard marine, I do not give this credit to KB. I simply look at what KB has to offer to the game, and I look at a game without KB has to offer. As I stated before, a game without KB would be seriously gimped as it would completely turn NS into a game of numbers, and the overall feel would become much slower, and with less possibilities.
The scenerio:
- A marine walks through a small doorway, one skulk waits overhead, unbeknowest to the marine. Marine walks through, is bitten on the head, he quickly turns mid air and starts shooting the skulk, who is quickly approaching!
A game with KB:
-- The skulk was careful, and started to bhop and keep up his speed after landing on the marine and never lost track of the marine. He quickly lands the next bite, and looks for his next target.
-- The skulk loses his target for half a second, which is all the time the marine needed to kill the skulk before the second bite came close. The marine continues to hunt for res.
-- Both the skulk and the marine are thrown off, the marine frantically seaches for the skulk, and the skulk lost his momentum after the first bite, and is despirately going after the marine! The marine starts shooting, and the skulk can't seem to start up a bhop to close the distance fast enough!
--- The marine can't seem to get a bead on the skulk, and the skulk then lands the second bite, and surrives with 10 hp. Close one skulkeh.
--- The marine can't seem to get a bead on the skulk, but luckily for him the comm was watching him and drops a med. The marine takes another bite, and doesn't get pushed back too much from this bite, but he still gets the time to finish off the skulk. He lives with 25 hp and zero armor.
--- The marine quickly gets a bead on the skulk and kills it.
A game without KB:
-- Marine walks through the doorway, skulk starts biting the marine, marine starts to frantically look for the skulk, but before he even could find where the skulk hid he's already dead.
-- Marine walks through the doorway, skulk starts biting the marine, marine starts to frantically look for the skulk, but before the skulk can drop his second bite a medpack lands on the marine. The marine finds the skulk and tries to move away from it, but it was way too late as the 3rd bite came fast enough to put the marine out of his miserly along with 2 of the comm's res.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure as hell would prefer a game with KB. Removing it would only kill possible scenerio's and make the game more boring. Wake up, this is an FPS, action is part of what it entails.
I want a game where marines NEEDS to stick together to win. I think that by removing KB, making it LOTS smaller, nerfing the marine jumping in combat or making the marine view bob a LOT when he get bitten, this will be completed.
I just came back from a CO game where one team consisted of vets (and me) and the other one with regular pubers. As marines, the vets simply pwnd the hell outta the pubbers, but as aliens, it was a long, slow death for the pubbers.
Why is this? Because the skulks couldn't touch the vets since they were backward jumping / Using KB to survive. I can actually admit that the pubbers had better teamplay, the actually organized ambushes and such, but a group of 2+ vets backwardsjumping and using KB was just too hard to kill for them, even though the skill level was above avarage.
I just say that if KB were removed I think that skilled skulks would become even more skilled, skilled marine would have to think twice and start actually avoid skulks more.
Without KB (or some other nerf to marines close up combat) i think the game would be far more fun, and probably more balanced.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can stick multiple marines in one area so that they are maximizing firepower and guarenting sucess of their battles, or you could spread out the marines so you can cap RT's faster. However, once they are alone they become more vulerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I actually agree with this point in principle. The problem is that you disagree with your own point. Knockback takes away a HUGE chunk of marine vulnerability when they are alone. If the vulnerability isn't there then the risk isn't there, and if the risk isn't there the marines have the advantage.
We can agree to disagree here, but I will NEVER believe that a marine should have an advantage in a situation where they are alone and surprized by an alien. If they get themselves in a situation like that then that's too bad. Call the comm for medpacks or backup, but don't expect the game to save you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->KB is there so that marine rambo's can actually surrive against skulks who can't kill them. Or at least give them a chance. Even with KB, keeping alive a marine 'rambo' against good skulks usually involves the comm dropping him a medpack or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Medpacks I would agree with, knockback I wouldn't. If a comm wants to take the risk of sending out a marine solo, then he should have to pay more attention to him with medpack/ammo drops. The problem with knockback is that it makes solo marines that much more self sufficient, and that is just plain wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Next, most of the arguments from the anti-KB in here all originate from the idea that "I got killed, it must have been because the marine flew back one foot after I bit him! Yeah, that's it!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Death is part of the game and I don't think anyone expects to win every battle. However the scores tell the story. Skulks are getting owned right now, and knockback is a significant reason why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about the rest of you, but I sure as hell would prefer a game with KB. Removing it would only kill possible scenerio's and make the game more boring. Wake up, this is an FPS, action is part of what it entails. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe we are playing different games, but I had plenty of excitement when KB was disabled in previous builds.
The problem seems to be that some people seem to think that marines need an extra advantage, and I do not.
If things were different, I MIGHT consider it, but right now it is far too easy for marines to own the map if they spread out. Aliens have to have 1/3 to 1/2 of their team going gorge in the beginning so that they can cap nodes, which leaves the aliens shorthanded AND responsible for working the entire map AND attacking marines.
If it was free to gorge and OCs were cheap, then I could see how KB <i><b>might</b></i> have a place in the game. However, aliens usually never get an OC up until after the second hive is dropped, let alone before that. This gives marines the opportunity to own the map AND with KB they win more of the crucial early battles. That's not balance, that rediculous.
The problem seems to be that some people like certain aspects of the game and they are unwilling to see those aspects changed for the greater good of the game. This is a BETA, it's meant to be in flux. There are things that have been in the game that I absolutely <b>LOVED</b>, (eg, babblers) but I understand and support why they were removed.
Right now marines are winning too many battles with skulks. When everything is said and done this MUST change. Nerfing the skulk armor was bad enough, adding knockback was just plain counter-productive. I've been beta-testing games for years, and I've goten to know what works and what doesn't. I loved babblers but I knew they had to go. Marine bunnyhopping (real bunny-hppping and not what we are discussing here) was also fun but had to go as well. The greater good of the game MUST prevail over the individual whims of its players.
I've seen too many games die because of poor balance decisions, I just don't want that to happen here.
Look at the Firearms mod. It won best mod of the year (many times) back in its day and <b>it beat out CS to do it!</b> Given the popularity of CS, do you realise how significant that is? So what killed Firearms? In my opinion, a few things:
-poor balance in certain areas that allowed people to abuse certain weapons to the point where individual server ops banned people who used those weapons or put in meta-mods to prevent their use
-poor decisions by the developers that catered too much to competitive play without taking into account public play - now there are never more than a dozen active servers (with players) running at any given time
-poor developer communication with the public and a lack of interatcion with those who would play the game.
The big killer was balance though. It just wasn't there.
I'm seeing the same trends in NS. It's a great mod, but the balance keeps getting tossed out the window to make the game appeal to a small group of vocal players instead of looking at the bigger picture and the player base as a whole.
Knockback is just another small aspect that detracts from NS as a game. Next thing you know they will put bunny-hopping back in for marines because some people think it involves 'skill' to do it. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Knockback was removed for good reason and I think it was a bad idea to undo the good that was done by putting it back in. People are free to disagree, but that doesn't make KB any less a bad idea.
All it does is make NS that much less of a good game.
Regards,
Savant
- It's a hard game to learn
- The skill curve is sharp
- NS has yet to be put on Valve's official 'games' list on steam
You know, in one point I'll give you Savant, and that is that KB frustrates people that are trying to learn the game to no end.
However, you still don't acknoweldge my arguments, that KB is needed because:
- It's vital to balance between rambo'ing and map control
- Adds diversity to the game in terms of skill
So I was thinking... you know there is a varible called mp_tournamentmode, right? <u>Make it so KB is only on when the varible is turned on.</u>
Finally, what killed FA more than anything, in my honest oppinion, is that the FA had a choice to either to appeal to the vets of it's game or the public... instead, it didn't do either, and it just failed.
Of course Forlorn wants KB in. As he said, he's played 100s of clan matches with it and does well with it in. Why would he want a change. However, the fact that NS is not growing at more then a glacial pace hints that there are problems with NS gameplay. It's simply not fun enough for the majority of gamers. So we can keep Forlorn (as a representative of players happy with current marine play) or we can look for ways to make the game more broadly appealing (or technically we can make it appeal to a different niche audience). And that decision is up to Flayra.
- It's vital to balance between rambo'ing and map control
- Adds diversity to the game in terms of skill<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mashing my jump key is not exactly a terribly diverse skill, and thats all thats required of the marine to get high knockback. You'll have trouble arguing that this is fun - if marines desperately need such a boost, they should get it in a less *** way.
Finally, the real problem with the whole thing is not the hopping alone. Its basicly a grand conspiracy against the 3.0 skulk when you take a look at it. For starters, as several people have mentioned you'll probably be down 2 people versus the Marine team (Them suffering -1 from the Commander, you suffering -3 for Gorges). In an 8on8, thats 7 Marines vs 5 Skulks - Marines that will likely be spawning at one every 5 seconds vs one every 8 seconds for Skulks. When its a necessity to attack Marines in groups, that means the whole Marine team could regroup with its numerical advantage in 35 seconds as opposed to 40 seconds for the smaller Skulk team.
Now, add in Armor1 for those marines, which they can have witin 90-300 seconds of game start. While bhopping after a 'rine ONCE is no big deal, the odds of surviving a second bhop after the same guy with his buddys tracking you are awefully bad. Its true that in a 1v1 it'd be silly to blame your loss entirely on KnockBack effects - in a 7v5 clusterfugg you'd be quite right to blame the fact it'll easily take you up to 5 seconds to take down a single 'rine on KB.
So we can probably agree, a single Armor 1 'rine vs a single vanilla Skulk has a pretty fair chance even upclose - thanks to those 3 bites and KB. In a group, Marine range advantages work alot better and you can consider those Skulks raped. The only way in a competitive classic match Skulks stand a decent chance is probably via Celerity and MC - probably the best chamber for competitive play anyway.
I won't argue with you that while it takes only 2 bites things are pretty even, right after that the game tilts heavily towards 'rine advantage. The only reason Aliens win competitive matches is a) MC b) their small size allowing for early Fades/super early Lerks.
- It's vital to balance between rambo'ing and map control
- Adds diversity to the game in terms of skill<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that KB provides 'map control' balance or adds skill diversity.
A solo marine has a comm that can save their butt if they get ambushed. How much more does a solo marine need?
-all maps are designed for 'humans' (ie - no alien environments) and so the layouts are usually wide and open in most areas
-vents are limited and ambush locations are restricted to a small number of spots on each map.
-marines can count on the commander for extra ammo
-marines can count on the commander for extra health ... before, <b>DURING</b> and after a battle
-marines can shoot long range and kill aliens before they get within melee range
I could go on and on, but the point is very valid. Marines have it relatively easy, and there is no justification for knockback in normal circumstances. (in my opinion)
Perhaps there is a different psychology here because of the innate difference between clan play and pub play. I'm looking at this from a strictly public perspective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So I was thinking... you know there is a varible called mp_tournamentmode, right? <u>Make it so KB is only on when the varible is turned on.</u><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's an excellent compromise if you ask me. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> I'm fine with that if the majority of vets are. You know what issues are important for clan games moreso than I would. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, what killed FA more than anything, in my honest oppinion, is that the FA had a choice to either to appeal to the vets of it's game or the public... instead, it didn't do either, and it just failed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, they didn't do either because they swung from side to side. Initially they appealed to everyone, and the clans got interested. So the devs made some major modifications that were very much geared to clan play. This alienated the pubbers (who left in droves) and when the devs went and started making FA more pub friendly the clanners left. So they ended up alienating everyone since they tried too hard to make the game to appeal to one particular group.
Regards,
Savant
-vents are limited and ambush locations are restricted to a small number of spots on each map.
-marines can count on the commander for extra ammo
-marines can count on the commander for extra health ... before, DURING and after a battle
-marines can shoot long range and kill aliens before they get within melee range"
umm.. aliens move around the map faster just so you know. Their are also more small areas or hallways and small corridors then open areas.
aliens never need ammo, or anyone to give them anything.
aliens can't count on a gorge OR regen to heal... hmm much easier to auto heal then to beg a com for 10 minutes.
-aliens can cling on ceilings or hide around the corner and amush marines before they even fire a shot.
So I don't see your point at all. Your trying to make it sound easier for marines when in fact its pretty much equal if not better for aliens.
The com has the ability to use the Obs to ping locations and see whats going on, not to mention once they research motion tracking its impossible to hide. Just give a marine a shotgun with motion tracking and it doesent matter the distance, with Health Rain he can survive forever untill he encounters a heavy unit. But marines still need to go out in force, sure, that skulk bit the marine in front, but he died, the marine can go to the back of the group and wait for the com to heal him. Regen for a skulk is pointless since its versatility in getting around makes it faster to run back to the hive. Not to mention Cara is more vital to the skulk anyways.
As for energy, when Skulks have leap, it can seriously deplete its energy with two leaps, unless it has Adren(Most skulks would opt for Silence because its more useful.)
Aliens don't have it hard when a rambo isnt being watched by the com other than kb, its harder when the com is helping the rambo, its even more hard when its a group of rines, and its the hardest when its a group of rines with a welder and Health Rain. Give the skulks a break, they can't do much other than ambush with luck. Not to mention shotguns eat them alive at close range.
No it isn't. I didn't even mention motion tracking, which gives marines their own personal wall-hack so you always know where all the aliens are. There's no excuse for marine incompetence.
Marines have plenty of advantages, and their ONLY disadvantage is that they are vunerable in melee range. I don't see any legitimate reason for that to change. Knockback is a penalty to aliens for scoring hits, which makes no sense whatsoever.
Regards,
Savant
Yes, If I'm running forward and see one MT circle close in front of me disappear, I'll assume the alien stopped there...but its impossible for a marine to keep track of all the aliens on the whole map simultaneously even with MT, so as long as that marine isn't real near you when you stop moving, you will be hidden again. Even if he is skilled enough to notice your paricular circle disappearing, and to remember where it was on his screen, from any decent range its impossible to tell exactly what map segment was represented by that location on his screen.