Shotgun
Brefl
Join Date: 2004-02-11 Member: 26383Members
Join Date: 2004-02-11 Member: 26383Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Developer Standpoint?</div> I really really want to know why:
1) The cheapest weapon in NS, both in classic AND combat, is unarguably the most powerful.
2) Why the most powerful gun in NS also has the fastest reload rate, thus removing one of the balancing factors of guns in NS.
3) Why the cheapest gun is the second most effective form of killing structures, possibly even more powerful then the grenade launcher (as it carries 2x as much ammo) (note: I don't consider the siege a gun per se, more of a tool)
4) Why is the most effective structure killing gun also the most effective anti-personal weapon?
Okay it's a tree everyone's been barking up at least once since 2.0 came out. But most combat games now involve the entire marine team just getting shotguns and blowing the hive away. I want to know <b>why</b> the shotgun was made so overpowered. I want to know <b>why</b> the developers <i>not only do nothing</i> about it, but also <i>completely ignore and pretend there is no problem.</i>
A) The shotgun is the cheapest weapon. It does not require an advanced armory.
B) The shotgun <b>therefore</b> should be <b>much weaker</b> then the HMG and GL. Instead, it's pretty much better then both.
C) The shotgun should also, by nature, be ineffective vs. structures, or large creatures, whichever.
The shotgun is void of any sort of balancing factor. At all.
- It's not expensive (a decent marine can get more then enough res for kills to be an investment).
- Compared to damage, it has a decent rate of fire (if it took two shots to kill a skulk, then it'd be worthless. But as it is, the user can easilly kill two skulks in a row, even more. Hell, it's possible to kill more then eight (spread can kill other targets at the same time).
- Damage is rediculously high vs. EVERYTHING in-game. You have to be close? That's not balance. Considering only two aliens can actually harm you at range, and one of them won't show up until three hives, this balancing factor is nill, since if you can shoot it first, it'll be dead, and no threat to you.
- Reloads faster then any weapon in the game. The fact you can interrupt it means that one shell is one 'reload'.
Flayra, Max, for the love of god WHY. Combat games should not end with every marine wielding a shotgun and a jetpack. The commander shouldn't have an anti-fade, anti-onos, anti-hive, anti-OC, anti-gorge, anti-lerk, and anti-skulk tool for a measly 10 res. That's STUPID. That's just LAME.
The shotgun is the equivilent of gorge spit doing 150 damage, hitscan: It'd make marines worthless since their chief advantage (range) is working against them. **** even the hitscan spit gorge would be more blanaced then the shotgun: At least it has a gestating time, instead of being instantly available anytime.
1) The cheapest weapon in NS, both in classic AND combat, is unarguably the most powerful.
2) Why the most powerful gun in NS also has the fastest reload rate, thus removing one of the balancing factors of guns in NS.
3) Why the cheapest gun is the second most effective form of killing structures, possibly even more powerful then the grenade launcher (as it carries 2x as much ammo) (note: I don't consider the siege a gun per se, more of a tool)
4) Why is the most effective structure killing gun also the most effective anti-personal weapon?
Okay it's a tree everyone's been barking up at least once since 2.0 came out. But most combat games now involve the entire marine team just getting shotguns and blowing the hive away. I want to know <b>why</b> the shotgun was made so overpowered. I want to know <b>why</b> the developers <i>not only do nothing</i> about it, but also <i>completely ignore and pretend there is no problem.</i>
A) The shotgun is the cheapest weapon. It does not require an advanced armory.
B) The shotgun <b>therefore</b> should be <b>much weaker</b> then the HMG and GL. Instead, it's pretty much better then both.
C) The shotgun should also, by nature, be ineffective vs. structures, or large creatures, whichever.
The shotgun is void of any sort of balancing factor. At all.
- It's not expensive (a decent marine can get more then enough res for kills to be an investment).
- Compared to damage, it has a decent rate of fire (if it took two shots to kill a skulk, then it'd be worthless. But as it is, the user can easilly kill two skulks in a row, even more. Hell, it's possible to kill more then eight (spread can kill other targets at the same time).
- Damage is rediculously high vs. EVERYTHING in-game. You have to be close? That's not balance. Considering only two aliens can actually harm you at range, and one of them won't show up until three hives, this balancing factor is nill, since if you can shoot it first, it'll be dead, and no threat to you.
- Reloads faster then any weapon in the game. The fact you can interrupt it means that one shell is one 'reload'.
Flayra, Max, for the love of god WHY. Combat games should not end with every marine wielding a shotgun and a jetpack. The commander shouldn't have an anti-fade, anti-onos, anti-hive, anti-OC, anti-gorge, anti-lerk, and anti-skulk tool for a measly 10 res. That's STUPID. That's just LAME.
The shotgun is the equivilent of gorge spit doing 150 damage, hitscan: It'd make marines worthless since their chief advantage (range) is working against them. **** even the hitscan spit gorge would be more blanaced then the shotgun: At least it has a gestating time, instead of being instantly available anytime.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The HMG specialises in long-medium range anti-personel warfare, while the GL specialises in long-medium range anti-structure warefare. The shotgun does both equally well, but at extreme close range.
With no maths put in at all, I feel that the HMG and Shotgun both do the same amount of damage at around the same speed at close range, but the HMG can also do this at any other range. In the same way there isn't much difference between using a shotty or GL and short range, but the GL is just as powerful hitting targets 50 metres away as it is hitting them 1 metre away (except it'll hurt you in that case).
A squad with a mix of HMGS and GLs will usually perform better than a squad of soley shotguns in my experience. What I'm getting at here is that the HMG and GL seem to be designed to work well with each other, each covering the other's weakness, and that in combination they become more powerful than either one of them could be alone.
But that's the problem. I mix of HMGs and GLs costs infinately more then a squad of shotguns. Following that line of thought, they both should cost 10 since they're still an individulaized role: The shotgun is 10 because it does both roles well. The GL would be 10 because it only does one role BETTER. The HMG likewise. But they don't, so I can't see that being the sole idea.
So while a ton of HMGers and GLers might kill the hive and aliens lightning-fast, at least the commander had to back it up with a TON of resources. Shotguns, on the other hand, do not cost much. I could tolerate the 'blending' logic except for the fact that it still does so much damage. Unfortunately, reducing the damage would reduce the lethality to skulks, making it worthless.
I propose that the shotgun does both light and piercing damage. What's that mean? It means that it will no longer be an anti-everything counter. Its counters will consist of OCs (since shotguns are their main enemies), fades, and onos.
If marines get the cheap shottie near the beginning of the game, give fade the 1.04 acid rocket in slot 2 to balance things out. Right now, flinging the equivalent of styrofoam peanuts for a hive 3 ability isn't fun.
I concur with the orginal poster. <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif' /><!--endemo-->
*sniff* 1.04...
/me breaks down crying
Curse you, software updates!!! I wouldn't mind the new versions so much if <b>someone</b> played 1.04... Come baaaack...
Like the first guy said, right now the marines have the most effective close-quarters attack, and that doesn't sit well with me. I'd rather see a weapon be somewhat uncommon (which could happen with the above, I admit) than see one be like this.
First I find it horribly ironic that this is in your sig:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From a gameplay perspective, giving fades a powerful ranged attack makes as much sense as giving marines lightsabers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So unfortunately for you, this means I'm going to take whatever you said with a grain of salt, because marines DO have lightsabers. It's called the shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why are you directly rushing the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoever said anything about directly rushing marines? A guy with a level 0 LMG could down a level 3 carapace skulk if he was directly rushing. This isn't about that, this is an issue with shotgun lethality.
There's this little facrtor I learned from other game balance called the "Time To Kill". This is the amount of time from pulling the trigger the first second, to the death of the target.
Now, a skulk has a time to kill on a vanilla marine of .4 seconds. That's 0 seconds (the first bite is free) for the first bite, a .4 second rate of fire delay, and then the second bite.
The shotgun has a time to kill on a vanilla skulk of 0 seconds. Because the first shot is free, and it instantly kills the skulk.
Now let's get technical. I fired a shotgun blast on the floor roughly... two or three meters in front of me. Then I fired a blast directly under me. The time it took me to run from the blast pattern (which was at range close enough to confirm a kill on a skulk: 5 pellets were grouped together (note that I did this test three different times, since the spread is random, results were similar)) was on average, .3 seconds as a skulk, more or less dead on that number. That increases the skulk time to kill at range of lethality for a marine at point blank range to .7 seconds.
Now, the shotgun has a rate of fire of .625 seconds. That means that, at range for a confirmed kill on a skulk, and the time and speeds for a confirmed kill on a marine, strictly mathematically (so saying that good skulks can win, or some BS like that), that for two absolute, 100% confirmed kills, the shotgun can actually kill skulks faster, at melee range, then <b>two</b> skulks can kill a marine (since the first shot is always free, and he kills the skulk at lethal range, the second skulk has to take .7 seconds to kill the marine, while the marine only takes .625)
Now tell me that's fair.
CutterJoe, Leap just makes the Skulk enter the Shotguns lethal range faster. So two leaping Skulks can take one Shotgunner, but one Skulk will still die in the process. You may be like, "Well, HMG can start attacking from further away", but the point is that Shotguns are much more accessible. Either a normal armory or two upgrade points. That ain't a lot. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This is exactly why it's overpowered, because there's far too many 'good hands' out there. And in those 'good hands' it's rediculous. It's absolutely freaking rediculous.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->8 bullets and the reload time balances it out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarially. I don't recall the exact number but I believe the shotgun has or 9 pellets, each doing... 12 damage? Hmm it said I did 35 to the armory, that's 1/3rd FF damage, equals 105 damage, possibly rounded. Anyway, that's more then enough damage. A shotgunner, with no ammo and one full chamber, is packing over 800 points of damage with him. That's one shot able to kill a skulk, 8 shells, 8 skulks. That's a lot of killing.
Finally, if the reload were via a drum, or magazine, and took a while, it'd be balanced. However, you can fire in the middle of the shotgun reloading. Meaning it reloads faster then an LMG...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides a good leap/bite skulk takes a good shotgunner to school any day of the week and twice on friday so its all good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. A good shotgunner (and I've seen 'em in action) will pop the flying skulk like a clay pidgeon. Like I said, because the shotgun has more range then skulk bite, the weapon already favors marines.
Sort of. If the skulks were running right behind each other, the marine instantly kills the first skulk. The timer starts. The skulk takes .7 seconds to move from the 'kill zone' up to the marine, and bite him twice. The marine, holding down fire, only takes .625 before he puts a few steaming hot rounds of double ought buckshot into the 'lil doggie. Understand now? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If the ROF was reduced to .8 seconds, that would probably be enough a change to balance out encounters. If reloading took a bit longer, I think it'd be perfect. If neither of those get changed, then the damage needs to go.
BTW about any issues with the HMG, in Classic, that's 30 res dropped into an advanced armory, and three minutes to upgrade. Furthermore, in the 5 seconds the shotgun takes to fire, doing 840 damage, the HMG will do 1560 (something around there, it's hard to take ROF measurements). However, like... someone said, the HMG is a more refined role. That does half damage to structures making it 780 damage for 5 seconds to structures, wheras in 5 seconds, the shotgun does 840+. So overall... holy crap... the shotgun is only slightly less powerful then the HMG... and since the HMG carries a total of somewhere around 24 seconds of firing time at a full loadout at 7500 damage, 3750 damage to structures averaging out to 5625 the shotgun does 4200 damage total to <u>everything</u>...
Wow, those numbers even surprised me...
But I digress, and the HMG also has a rediculously absurd reloading time, and can run very short on ammo. Really, the shotgun doesn't suffer too much from either of these problems. Finally, in combat, that's one more point to acquire, or the equivilant, a Fade.
The other thing I think is the fact that with the new hitboxes it's MUCH harder to hit many aliens, so the HMG is not able to fully use the discusting ammount of damage it can deal out.
I believe that all the weapons/abilities in ns suppose to serve a role. It doesn't matter how late in the game, how many resources it cost or how many upgrades you need to attain it, it has to serve a role somewhere in the game and will not become obsolete as soon as another weapon is available. The amount of resources it costs only place the importance of the role but should not dictate how or when the role is served.
Shotguns, obviously serves as a medium/semi close rangeish weapon. No other gun perform better in this category than shotgun (hmg cant unload fast enought in close range). Now, think about it..if aliens excel in close range, why would a marine want to get close to the aliens? The fact that this weapon is used for medium/close range places the user in a dangerous risk in order to be most effective. Whereas a gl or hmg can be effective in a much safer distance.
Now you will probably say, "well how is a skulk going to kill a shotguner." Well, if there is a shotgunner 30 meters from a hive or structure of yours do you seriously think he will do damage to your structures from all the way over there? No, he has to get close to the structures. You, as a skulk, shouldn't charge/leap into him like a maniac. Use your buildings as cover, have some patience, ambush some and you will find it isn't hard to triump over even the veteran shotgunner. And if there are hmgers by these shotgunners then well, thats teamwork for ya.
Ever seen alien movies? What happens when small-medium sized aliens charge the humans from across a long corridor? They get SHOT. The only time you're ganna see small-medium sized aliens do some killing is when they drop down from the ceiling, creep up under a grate, or travel in swarms.
As far as the performance of shotgun is concerned, I never understood why the rof was increased that much...but anyway, even if the rof is high, the marine player still has to have his crosshair on you to kill you...which is why you should never confront a shotgunner face to face the same reason you shouldn't confront a hmger from long distance.
Now I don't feel that there is a need to redicule the new AR here. But Spore IMO needs a slight boost. Either a small boost to Spore damage or, let it to have a short residue effect on affected marines might do the trick.
My 2 cents
Lets do a simulation on who wins more battles in combat, a marine with weapons 1 and a shotgun or a skulk with leap and focus.
I'll take leap and focus over weapons 1 and a shotty any day.
If what was said about the shotgun was true, the marine shotgun rush should be far more effective than it is.
What are you talking about? It is easy. In a pub, anyways.
A carapaced combat/hive 1 fade has 300hp and 250 armour, letting him take 800 total damage before he drops, meaning you will need to get in 5 shots at point blank range in order to kill him. A carapaced combat or hive 1 onos comes with a whopping 700hp and 750 armour, which means he can sustain 2200 damage before dropping, which makes fore 12 point blank range shotgun blasts to bring him down.
Please tell me when you're going to find the time to unload that many bullets at point blank range? HMGs on the other hand don't require you to wait until the fade is drooling all over your face before you can open fire, infact you can open fire on him from the other end of the hallway and you'll probably still kill him with half a clip to spare (40 bullets to kill him with cara at hive 1).
While shotguns may only be 10 res, HMGs only cost 15 res, and frankly I'd feel far safer running out against fades and oni with 2 hmgs and 1 lmg than I would with 3 shotguns.
Please tell me when you're going to find the time to unload that many bullets at point blank range? HMGs on the other hand don't require you to wait until the fade is drooling all over your face before you can open fire, infact you can open fire on him from the other end of the hallway and you'll probably still kill him with half a clip to spare (40 bullets to kill him with cara at hive 1). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Right let's judge the performance of an early game weapon vs. late game weapons! While we're at it, we'll start talking about how it's not fair that gorges can't kill heavy armor instantly!
First of all, some is better then none. 5 shotgun blasts for a fade? Sure, one on one, that'll be hard. But put an extra marine in the room and that fade is going down. Plus, in Classic (really, I could care less if Counter-Selection dropped off the earth) that's a 10 res shotgun, with a 65-some res upgrade that's taking down a 50 res critter with a 2 res upgrade supported by 30 res of chambers, requiring another 10 res on top of that to drop them, and then you have to keep in mind that acquiring a total of 92 res for a fade takes SIGNIFICANTLY longer then it takes for the commander to get 92 res (oh that's right, the commander starts with <b>100</b>)
Toss in a 4 res catpack and the fade will die almost instantly.
For combat, then? The shotgun is only two points smartguy, the fade is 3 and the onos is 5. Maybe you didn't notice we're on beta 3 now? You want to compare a 2 point shotgun to a 4 point upgraded fade? Fine, but the marine gets armor 1 and damage 2 then. Hmm odds against the fade are little steeper. It gets worse for the onos, because then I'll just say to strap on a jetpack.
Secondly, maybe you hadn't noticed, but the onos is the size of a mack truck. You can reliably land all the pellets into one at much MUCH greater range then you could a skulk. The same is true for the fade.
The point is that the shotgun is the equivilent of the AWP in C-S costing $500. It'd be cheap, easy to use early on, and sure some people suck with it, but those that can use it will rape the other team six ways to sunday.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns = offensive, Hmgs = defensive.? Both have a role, and I prefer 2:1 shottie to hmg mixes in attack squads when I have hmgs researched and the res.? I find the GL to be a waste before JP, because skulks have too many means of evading the GL protectors and directly killing the GLer.? Furthermore, I can say this about the hmg ... one of the most powerful base defense mechanisms involves the commander hopping out with an hmg.? Whenever I have the res and the time I always drop myself one.? In this case the shotgun is simply not nearly as effective as the hmg in this role, which is one that is severly underappreciated.? And if you think that's `bs. , stop by my clans channel on gamesnet at #nsclanbs.? I have the demos to prove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And once again, another person completely and absolutely fails to grasp the point, or for what I can tell, read anything beyond the topic.
Upgrades seem to cost more than they might help you most times.
All that upgrades do is giving new abilities so theres one upgrade helping against another.
You still have chances against big rushes with low resources, just by having the right counter upgrades.
NS is about choosing the right abilities against the enemy and not about tank rushes.
Thats the difference between older RTS and newer ones.
I assume you mean from the marine POV? The gestating time pretty much outlaws anything bigger then slightly upgraded skulks as resistance to a pushed front, with maybe a lerk or two. Whereas the commander just drops some gear on the IP and POOF he's got an instant anti-onos weapon in the field.