do you hear yourself talking brefl? it sounds as if someone gets a shotgun early on and fires one shot the game is over. just try to be a little bit more objective.
most people have the opinion that shotguns arent overpowered and i can only add:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is exactly why it's overpowered, because there's far too many 'good hands' out there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe so, But do you nerf a weapon just because theres too many people good at using it?? I sincerly hope not because that would just suck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, if the reload were via a drum, or magazine, and took a while, it'd be balanced. However, you can fire in the middle of the shotgun reloading. Meaning it reloads faster then an LMG...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually a smart skulk will wait until he starts reloading then rush. It takes a second or three to interupt the reload of a shottie therefore you may be able to squeeze off 8 skulks(not likely) but the 9th one, assuming he has the iq of a rabbit or maybe fox, will more than likely kill you if you are in the middle of a reload.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not really. A good shotgunner (and I've seen 'em in action) will pop the flying skulk like a clay pidgeon. Like I said, because the shotgun has more range then skulk bite, the weapon already favors marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am pretty good with the shottie. Its my weapon of choice for the first half of a co game then I prefer the gl. Ive killed leaping skulks many times like 'clay pidgeons'. But if the leaper is good they wont leep right into your line of fire like mediocore leapers will. Most of them leap around you then hit you from the back or leap over you and fall on top of you.
I wasnt talking about the almost good leapers. I was refering to the 'good' leapers or 'great' leapers. Ive been killed more times than I can count by some of the old vets when I first started pt'ing in october.
I think they should just bring back the extra life for level up. I miss the 150 hp 30 ap skulks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Shotguns deal 170 w/o upgrades, 180 with wepons 1, 200 with wp. 2, and 220 with wp. 3. That's assuming you get every pellet to hit. There are 10 pellets per shell.
Now;
To call the shotgun better at anti-personel than an HMG means you arn't fireing your HMG right. 26 per shot at lv 3, 125 shots, insane ROF. You'll kill a skulk in 4 shots.
And as it stands, a shotgun SHOULD kill a cara skulk easy- 10 res compared to 2 res. A fade or higher should have no problems killing shotgunners, and a lerk can simply spore them.
The shotgun isn't overpowered, even in "good hands" because alines in the same "good hands" can be devistating as well.
I believe that most skulks in pubs...rush marines, and usually in 1s and 2s. If a marine has 2 seconds to track you before you get into range, that's enough for a LMG to take you down, but he might miss and you can therefore kill him. However, that is enough to line up a shotgun blast and take down a skulk.
Now...if the skulk or 2 were to hide in vents, ceilings at res nodes and chokes where marines like to pass by...that's a dead marine for a patient skulk instead of a bloodthirsty and freefrag skulk.
If marines make a shotgun rush against a hive, if even 3 skulks take the time to ambush instead of charging into the lead wall of doom, that's possibly 3 dead marines and 3 lost shotguns. 4 marines with shotguns take much more time to down a hive than 7, and 4 marines shooting a hive can be raped by 2 skulks that aren't being targetted before they empty their rounds.
The other case this won't work if marines pg/siege a hive from a safe distance... however, if they have the 40 res for 4 shotties, and the 70 res for a 2-siege turret siege with PG, plus 20 res for an obs at their base (totalling 130 res), while they are upgrading, then something is wrong with the kharaa...
Brefl, you remember the 1.04 shotgun? I remember that it went unused just about every game.
You act like the marine has perfect aim, able to take down 8 skulks with 8 shotgun rounds. If that theoretical perfect marine had an LMG, he would be able to take down 4 or 5 skulks in 2.01, not to mention that it is alot faster to reload your LMG from empty to full capacity then it is a shotgun. The HMG would be able to kill about 15 in one clip skulks if the marine with perfect aim was put into the field.
The trick is learning how to counter shotguns. If you have leap you can take a shotgunner in a few tries, or one if you get lucky. If the shotgunner can blast a leaping skulk out of the air, quite frankly you either lept straight at him or there is a good reason you are losing. The trick is to try to dodge his shots and make quick unpredictable movements whenever you know is next shot is coming.
I wanna know what you are gonna do with your shotguns against stomp onos <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Not only do aliens have several direct counters against shotties, but they also are able to beat shotgunners at their own game as well. Ambush shotties from vents, have a gorge bait for you, lerks spores totally own shotties, fades can hit and run SG's to death, there are so many ways just listening to you Brefl <span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
While yes, SG's are strong, they are meant to be strong and they are meant to have the aliens fear them.
Your point though starting off on reasonable ground seems to have degraded into "OMG no im right SUYF", Id try to justify my statement but I obviously dont understand the mathematics involved, maybe I should ask my lecturers about it?
<!--QuoteBegin-Brefl+Feb 13 2004, 05:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brefl @ Feb 13 2004, 05:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that's a 10 res shotgun, with a 65-some res upgrade that's taking down a 50 res critter with a 2 res upgrade supported by 30 res of chambers, requiring another 10 res on top of that to drop them, and then you have to keep in mind that acquiring a total of 92 res for a fade takes SIGNIFICANTLY longer then it takes for the commander to get 92 res (oh that's right, the commander starts with <b>100</b>)
Toss in a 4 res catpack and the fade will die almost instantly.
although marines do start with 100 resources, aliens start with 25n resources, where n is the number of players on the team. assuming you're talking about an average public game (considering the content of this thread there is no way you're talking about competitive play), which on average would have 8 players, the alien team starts with 200 resources. if three people drop one defense chamber each, and three more drop one resource node each, the remaining two can go fade at the 4 minute mark.
i don't know where your "65-some res" upgrade comes from, but consider a normal public game. assume the commander builds 1 infantry portal, an armory, and an arms lab at the very start of the game. you are left with ~45 resources. most commanders will cap at least one resource node, and then start either armor 1 or weapons 1, leaving them with 0 resources. by this point, the aliens can have all three defense chambers built (level 3 defense) and three nodes (four counting the one they start with). marines have two nodes, and have just paid 20 resources for an upgrade they won't have for over a minute. assuming the marines go directly for weapons 1 -> weapons 2 -> weapons 3 and skip armor completely, the aliens will still have fades by the time, if not before, marines can get weapons 2. if the marines choose to get armor 1 first, then they will definitely not have weapons 2 by the time the aliens have fades.
it then costs 10 more resources to drop a shotgun. now, a marine with either weapons 1 and armor 1, or weapons 2 and no armor upgrades versus a fade. <b>fade wins</b>. even if the marine had an aimbot, the fade would win. in the case of the marine having 1/1, the fade can get 3 swipes in before the marine can do any significant damage. in the case of the marine having 2/0, the fade should be able to get 2 swipes in before the marine can do <b>any</b> damage. 10 resources down the drain.
you also neglected to consider that cat packs cost 20 resources and take over a minute to research, and if you're researching cat packs, then you aren't researching armor or weapon upgrades. marine with armor 1, a shotgun, and a catpack versus a fade? <b>fade wins</b>.
if you're not going to look at your point from all sides and question things objectively, then don't bother attempting to question them at all.
How about a researchable upgrade for shotguns? Say they do light damage initially, and you have to research heavy shells for them with an advanced armory to do normal damage? Or something along those lines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What people really dont like is the travelling wall of death aspect, with no appreciable reload time. I don't know if 10 res is too little for a shotty, but the marines need some sort of counter to good skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin-kolokol+Feb 13 2004, 12:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kolokol @ Feb 13 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What people really dont like is the travelling wall of death aspect, with no appreciable reload time. I don't know if 10 res is too little for a shotty, but the marines need some sort of counter to good skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> wait i read that wrong. the shottie wall of death is countered by lerks eeasily. thre just over looked. the shottie is fine. people just don't look at all angles. from a skulk perspective the shottie is cheap, and deadly. froma lerk perspective, the shottie is almost useless..
You're missing his point... It's not OMG SHOGTUN f4 OMG, it's that it's just <b>much</b> too powerful for it's accessibility and price. All you need to do is slap up an armory. HMGs, you need to slap up an armory and then advance it, and outfitting as many marines with it is much more costly than with shotgun. Shotguns shouldn't be easy to get to. Make them either cost more, or split the Advanced Armory tech tree in two, so it costs half the res and takes half the time, at wich point Shotguns are accessible, then you spend the other half and you get HMG access, or something to that effect.
I think shotties are a little overpowered. Whenever I com, I always give 3/4 of heavies shotties, and the rest gl or hm. Their kill rate is just as good as an all hm train, and it is about 50 res cheaper in a 20 man game. that means ~2 more heavie sets when people die.
<!--QuoteBegin-Brefl+Feb 13 2004, 05:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Brefl @ Feb 13 2004, 05:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns = offensive, Hmgs = defensive. Both have a role, and I prefer 2:1 shottie to hmg mixes in attack squads when I have hmgs researched and the res. I find the GL to be a waste before JP, because skulks have too many means of evading the GL protectors and directly killing the GLer. Furthermore, I can say this about the hmg ... one of the most powerful base defense mechanisms involves the commander hopping out with an hmg. Whenever I have the res and the time I always drop myself one. In this case the shotgun is simply not nearly as effective as the hmg in this role, which is one that is severly underappreciated. And if you think that's `bs. , stop by my clans channel on gamesnet at #nsclanbs. I have the demos to prove it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And once again, another person completely and absolutely fails to grasp the point, or for what I can tell, read anything beyond the topic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As I understand it, you are saying that the shotgun is too powerful to its cost. Furthermore, you are basing this on the relative values of the other marine weapons. I am merely pointing out that you do not give the HMG enough credit. The HMG fulfills the anti-skulk, anti-gorge and anti-onos roles, in addition to providing good support against lerks and fades. The primary means of killing lerks and fades is still the shotgun, which is its primary anti alien role IMHO. Other than that, shotties excel at killing alien structures and in particular alien RTs. When assembling attack squads, my preferred two man squad is a shottie/hmg, my preferred three man squad is a shottie/shottie/hmg, and my preferred four man squad is two of each for patrol, or three shotguns and 1 hmg for a hive assault. In terms of raw power, I cannot agree that the shotgun > hmg, it is simply not the case. Anyways I know I'd rather have the hmg in my hand, and I'm pretty damn good with the shottie.
Secondly, when comparing the cost of the shottie to hmg, you cannot contribute the whole 30 res to it. Some of it yes, realistically I'd add 3-4 to the cost of an hmg, making it effectively 18-19 res. The reason for this is because you need the upgraded armory for the protolab, ie it is in the tech tree. In a RTS you never associate the full price of the tech tree to a unit or item gotten through it, you merely take the tech tree into account and develop means to go up it at your desired pace. The point of the matter is that I can say this, the hmg is cheaper than two shotguns at effective price. Now, I would always like to have the extra shotgun, but in NS there is a problem that other RTS games do not have. In NS, there is a static unit size limit, ie you can't make new guys. What this means is that in NS the point is to make each unit as powerful and useful as possible, efficiency is only a res driven issue. Another way of putting this is that at some point of res intake equipping my marines with shotguns will be over efficient and I will begin to store res, this also doing with my shotgun replacement rate (normally I strive for 1 a minute in good conditions). At this point where all the marines have shotguns, the only means I have of increasing the physical attacking strength of my marine force is to introduce HMGs (and to some extent JP) into the field. In this case, I am paying nearly the price of an extra shotgun for an increased marine power, although power and price are not linearly related. In other words there is less effective return off the conversion from shottie to hmg than from lmg to shottie. Considering the effective returns off going from fade to onos (ummm .... none?) I can't complain.
Another issue that hasn't been brought up. Of all the heavy weapons, I have found the HMG to have the least danger for friendly fire deaths. I'm not too worried about a little damage because that can be medded/welded away, but sadly there is no comm hack to revive a marine. In tight coridors, even the best marines shoot themselves to **** with shotguns. I've seen it tons of times. The problem is that one bad shot and you've done about 50 damage to a friendly (I think its about 50 from a full shottie) while with an HMG you might be in the LOF for a second at the most. The only thing worse than the shottie at this is the GL. I don't think I need to explain that one.
Finally, the shottie is a close combat weapon. The HMG is a close to medium combat weapon. What that is trying to say is the shotgun performs best in close quarters while the HMG is best is medium size rooms and hallways. The problem with having a squad of all shotties is that they cannot deal with no local threats nearly as well as if there was an HMG in the group. It has its purposes, I just don't see many people understanding them.
The shotgun is my weapon of choice to kill the larger lifeforms... especially hit and run.
It's not that it does more damage over time (it does, compared to the GL), its that it takes the enemy's health down by chunks instead of smoothly.
Enemies watching their health and getting ready to run away are often surprised by a sudden drop from 400 to 200 to 0 health in the space of 4 seconds, instead of a smooth drop...
Of course, a fade confronting a shotgunner alone, the fade wins... at least, he should. I do. It still hurts, but you win. And can run away afterwards.
However, 2-3 shotgunners is a serious threat, as they (if well aimed) can kill a fade almost instantly... an onos would have to be charging directly around a corner to even reach the marines...
Basically, the shotty is the danger weapon if I'm on alien. HMG is ... meh, I'll charge at an HMGer as an onos and I can watch my life/armor predictably lower. But against the shotty, its a gamble. If I see 2 shotty guys, as a fade, I'll have to really carefully whittle them down with non-lethal hit and runs until I can handle them both in a second... if I'm an onos... and theres 2 shotty guys... I find another way to go. Because 2 shotty guys can kill an onos in under 5 seconds (often the time it takes to reach them).
At the same time though, if the shotty runs out of ammo, it takes about as long as the GL to fully load up again, so if you can catch a marine reloading it, he's not even a threat to a fade or onos...
I read the first post and have skimmed this last page and I have the feeling people really don't understand the true power of shotguns in real-life. Real shotguns will tear a person in half at the range that it is used in this game and have a limited range around 50 feet if you want to at least hurt them. Since this game is close-combat, what do you expect? In <u>reality</u> those fades would be torn in half and the onos would get a face-lift in one shot, not too mention just leave a skulk as a stain on the floor. As for it reloading so fast why not just complain and try to get it so they are loading in mags or is that too fast for so many rounds? What I am saying is in realtion to reality, where the devs even got the idea of putting a shotgun into the game, the shotgun just has the power it truely has.This isn't CS where a person can suck up three rounds 10 feet from you and still kill you. I can't see powering it down as helping , i don't know about you but I don't want to have to shoot a skulk twice or go through a couple reloads to take down a fade. They are very powerful, but the fact is they REALLY are....
<!--QuoteBegin-CutterJoe+Feb 12 2004, 11:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CutterJoe @ Feb 12 2004, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Someones gotten killed by the shotgun a few times huh? Nah its no where near overpowered. Its just a really powerful weapon in the right hands. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny thing here is... They said the exact same thing about the fade in 2.0X, THEN THEY NERFED HIM.
Edit: oh... and LMG > All <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i think you are not consedering the alien's abilities,
Skulks:
1rst of all, with celerity are so hard to kill(specially with a shotgun) 2nd of all they can upgrade clocking and bite you from the back(gg you saw nothing and knew nothing) 3rd i have to say that regen doesn't help them a lot there...since they are low hp units 4rth the parasite he does is so annoying, the whole alien team can see your movements... 5th Xenoside totaly owns non-HA marines
Lerks: 1rst celerity makes them avoid 1/2 of the bullets(since they fly fast,so with celerity...even faster) 2nd they can use the 2nd ability(which will own all non-HA marines) 3rd adrenaline is absolutly nessecery for lerks(at least that's what i think) 4rth regen helps them live longer. 5th clocking allows them to use the back stab tactic(bite from the back) n that's all there is to it...
Fades: 1rst celerity & adrenaline are very usefull here...(of course in combat mode) 2nd regen makes them live longer and sometimes, they never die... 3rd cloacking allows them to use, once more, the back stab tactic
no need to write more, but shotgun is well placed in the tech tree, compared to what the aliens can get
I've always thought the shotgun was a bit too good at too many things when compared to it's cost and availability. I would like to see it toned down just a hair sometime, but it seems that the devs like it the way it is. Oh well.
<!--QuoteBegin-The_Angel_of_Death+Feb 13 2004, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The_Angel_of_Death @ Feb 13 2004, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I read the first post and have skimmed this last page and I have the feeling people really don't understand the true power of shotguns in real-life. Real shotguns will tear a person in half at the range that it is used in this game and have a limited range around 50 feet if you want to at least hurt them. Since this game is close-combat, what do you expect? In <u>reality</u> those fades would be torn in half and the onos would get a face-lift in one shot, not too mention just leave a skulk as a stain on the floor. As for it reloading so fast why not just complain and try to get it so they are loading in mags or is that too fast for so many rounds? What I am saying is in realtion to reality, where the devs even got the idea of putting a shotgun into the game, the shotgun just has the power it truely has.This isn't CS where a person can suck up three rounds 10 feet from you and still kill you. I can't see powering it down as helping , i don't know about you but I don't want to have to shoot a skulk twice or go through a couple reloads to take down a fade. They are very powerful, but the fact is they REALLY are.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't even know where to start...
Let me condense it down into: Games need to be fair, and its in the future versus rhino looking aliens. I don't think real life applies.
Semi-related comment: You could always lower shotty RoF now. Balance issues would be fairly minor (in Classic), but would turn rambo uber shotties into an investment (as you'd have to use catpacks to make them uber). It would also mean that, for more effective shotguns, you'd have to get cats.
I wouldn't mind seeing shotties do reduced damage versus onos and buildings - they'd still tear all other kharaa up pretty good, so they'd still be well worth dishing out. It would be nice to see it tried, anyway.
Personally, I think that spectators are over powered. there just isn't anyway to kill them and they see everything. The devs need to nerf them or something
BTW, in combat mode, a MT-w3-a1-shotgun marine can pull of massacres pretty easily. Umbra counters shotguns directly and violently, so in combat mode it shouldn't be a problem- However you don't always have easy access to lerk(as in, going YOURSELF, so you KNOW that the lerk in question is smart with umbra and not a 'flapping nub') in classic mode.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Feb 13 2004, 01:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Feb 13 2004, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just so you all know
Shotguns deal 170 w/o upgrades, 180 with wepons 1, 200 with wp. 2, and 220 with wp. 3. That's assuming you get every pellet to hit. There are 10 pellets per shell.
Now;
To call the shotgun better at anti-personel than an HMG means you arn't fireing your HMG right. 26 per shot at lv 3, 125 shots, insane ROF. You'll kill a skulk in 4 shots.
And as it stands, a shotgun SHOULD kill a cara skulk easy- 10 res compared to 2 res. A fade or higher should have no problems killing shotgunners, and a lerk can simply spore them.
The shotgun isn't overpowered, even in "good hands" because alines in the same "good hands" can be devistating as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think it's 18.5 dmg per shot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
mp_drawdamage is your friend! In 2.0, it did 170.0 damage if all pellets hit- unless the amount of pellets has changed and/or is simulated as lower than what it actually is, 10 pellets and 17 dmg each(level 0). In 3.0, it's the same.
Amelek, you are my new hero. Your post is probably the most relevant and informative on the topic, and it also makes the most sense. I think Brefl just got pwned. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
most people have the opinion that shotguns arent overpowered and i can only add:
imho they are right
Maybe so, But do you nerf a weapon just because theres too many people good at using it?? I sincerly hope not because that would just suck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, if the reload were via a drum, or magazine, and took a while, it'd be balanced. However, you can fire in the middle of the shotgun reloading. Meaning it reloads faster then an LMG...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually a smart skulk will wait until he starts reloading then rush. It takes a second or three to interupt the reload of a shottie therefore you may be able to squeeze off 8 skulks(not likely) but the 9th one, assuming he has the iq of a rabbit or maybe fox, will more than likely kill you if you are in the middle of a reload.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not really. A good shotgunner (and I've seen 'em in action) will pop the flying skulk like a clay pidgeon. Like I said, because the shotgun has more range then skulk bite, the weapon already favors marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am pretty good with the shottie. Its my weapon of choice for the first half of a co game then I prefer the gl. Ive killed leaping skulks many times like 'clay pidgeons'. But if the leaper is good they wont leep right into your line of fire like mediocore leapers will. Most of them leap around you then hit you from the back or leap over you and fall on top of you.
I wasnt talking about the almost good leapers. I was refering to the 'good' leapers or 'great' leapers. Ive been killed more times than I can count by some of the old vets when I first started pt'ing in october.
I think they should just bring back the extra life for level up. I miss the 150 hp 30 ap skulks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Shotguns deal 170 w/o upgrades, 180 with wepons 1, 200 with wp. 2, and 220 with wp. 3. That's assuming you get every pellet to hit. There are 10 pellets per shell.
Now;
To call the shotgun better at anti-personel than an HMG means you arn't fireing your HMG right. 26 per shot at lv 3, 125 shots, insane ROF. You'll kill a skulk in 4 shots.
And as it stands, a shotgun SHOULD kill a cara skulk easy- 10 res compared to 2 res. A fade or higher should have no problems killing shotgunners, and a lerk can simply spore them.
The shotgun isn't overpowered, even in "good hands" because alines in the same "good hands" can be devistating as well.
Now...if the skulk or 2 were to hide in vents, ceilings at res nodes and chokes where marines like to pass by...that's a dead marine for a patient skulk instead of a bloodthirsty and freefrag skulk.
If marines make a shotgun rush against a hive, if even 3 skulks take the time to ambush instead of charging into the lead wall of doom, that's possibly 3 dead marines and 3 lost shotguns. 4 marines with shotguns take much more time to down a hive than 7, and 4 marines shooting a hive can be raped by 2 skulks that aren't being targetted before they empty their rounds.
The other case this won't work if marines pg/siege a hive from a safe distance... however, if they have the 40 res for 4 shotties, and the 70 res for a 2-siege turret siege with PG, plus 20 res for an obs at their base (totalling 130 res), while they are upgrading, then something is wrong with the kharaa...
You act like the marine has perfect aim, able to take down 8 skulks with 8 shotgun rounds. If that theoretical perfect marine had an LMG, he would be able to take down 4 or 5 skulks in 2.01, not to mention that it is alot faster to reload your LMG from empty to full capacity then it is a shotgun. The HMG would be able to kill about 15 in one clip skulks if the marine with perfect aim was put into the field.
The trick is learning how to counter shotguns. If you have leap you can take a shotgunner in a few tries, or one if you get lucky. If the shotgunner can blast a leaping skulk out of the air, quite frankly you either lept straight at him or there is a good reason you are losing. The trick is to try to dodge his shots and make quick unpredictable movements whenever you know is next shot is coming.
While yes, SG's are strong, they are meant to be strong and they are meant to have the aliens fear them.
Its the skills and teamwork that aren't balanced. If you balanced them, the game would be no fun.
The shotgun is fine.
Toss in a 4 res catpack and the fade will die almost instantly.
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although marines do start with 100 resources, aliens start with 25n resources, where n is the number of players on the team. assuming you're talking about an average public game (considering the content of this thread there is no way you're talking about competitive play), which on average would have 8 players, the alien team starts with 200 resources. if three people drop one defense chamber each, and three more drop one resource node each, the remaining two can go fade at the 4 minute mark.
i don't know where your "65-some res" upgrade comes from, but consider a normal public game. assume the commander builds 1 infantry portal, an armory, and an arms lab at the very start of the game. you are left with ~45 resources. most commanders will cap at least one resource node, and then start either armor 1 or weapons 1, leaving them with 0 resources. by this point, the aliens can have all three defense chambers built (level 3 defense) and three nodes (four counting the one they start with). marines have two nodes, and have just paid 20 resources for an upgrade they won't have for over a minute. assuming the marines go directly for weapons 1 -> weapons 2 -> weapons 3 and skip armor completely, the aliens will still have fades by the time, if not before, marines can get weapons 2. if the marines choose to get armor 1 first, then they will definitely not have weapons 2 by the time the aliens have fades.
it then costs 10 more resources to drop a shotgun. now, a marine with either weapons 1 and armor 1, or weapons 2 and no armor upgrades versus a fade. <b>fade wins</b>. even if the marine had an aimbot, the fade would win. in the case of the marine having 1/1, the fade can get 3 swipes in before the marine can do any significant damage. in the case of the marine having 2/0, the fade should be able to get 2 swipes in before the marine can do <b>any</b> damage. 10 resources down the drain.
you also neglected to consider that cat packs cost 20 resources and take over a minute to research, and if you're researching cat packs, then you aren't researching armor or weapon upgrades. marine with armor 1, a shotgun, and a catpack versus a fade? <b>fade wins</b>.
if you're not going to look at your point from all sides and question things objectively, then don't bother attempting to question them at all.
wait i read that wrong. the shottie wall of death is countered by lerks eeasily. thre just over looked. the shottie is fine. people just don't look at all angles. from a skulk perspective the shottie is cheap, and deadly. froma lerk perspective, the shottie is almost useless..
It's not OMG SHOGTUN f4 OMG, it's that it's just <b>much</b> too powerful for it's accessibility and price. All you need to do is slap up an armory. HMGs, you need to slap up an armory and then advance it, and outfitting as many marines with it is much more costly than with shotgun. Shotguns shouldn't be easy to get to. Make them either cost more, or split the Advanced Armory tech tree in two, so it costs half the res and takes half the time, at wich point Shotguns are accessible, then you spend the other half and you get HMG access, or something to that effect.
And once again, another person completely and absolutely fails to grasp the point, or for what I can tell, read anything beyond the topic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I understand it, you are saying that the shotgun is too powerful to its cost. Furthermore, you are basing this on the relative values of the other marine weapons. I am merely pointing out that you do not give the HMG enough credit. The HMG fulfills the anti-skulk, anti-gorge and anti-onos roles, in addition to providing good support against lerks and fades. The primary means of killing lerks and fades is still the shotgun, which is its primary anti alien role IMHO. Other than that, shotties excel at killing alien structures and in particular alien RTs. When assembling attack squads, my preferred two man squad is a shottie/hmg, my preferred three man squad is a shottie/shottie/hmg, and my preferred four man squad is two of each for patrol, or three shotguns and 1 hmg for a hive assault. In terms of raw power, I cannot agree that the shotgun > hmg, it is simply not the case. Anyways I know I'd rather have the hmg in my hand, and I'm pretty damn good with the shottie.
Secondly, when comparing the cost of the shottie to hmg, you cannot contribute the whole 30 res to it. Some of it yes, realistically I'd add 3-4 to the cost of an hmg, making it effectively 18-19 res. The reason for this is because you need the upgraded armory for the protolab, ie it is in the tech tree. In a RTS you never associate the full price of the tech tree to a unit or item gotten through it, you merely take the tech tree into account and develop means to go up it at your desired pace. The point of the matter is that I can say this, the hmg is cheaper than two shotguns at effective price. Now, I would always like to have the extra shotgun, but in NS there is a problem that other RTS games do not have. In NS, there is a static unit size limit, ie you can't make new guys. What this means is that in NS the point is to make each unit as powerful and useful as possible, efficiency is only a res driven issue. Another way of putting this is that at some point of res intake equipping my marines with shotguns will be over efficient and I will begin to store res, this also doing with my shotgun replacement rate (normally I strive for 1 a minute in good conditions). At this point where all the marines have shotguns, the only means I have of increasing the physical attacking strength of my marine force is to introduce HMGs (and to some extent JP) into the field. In this case, I am paying nearly the price of an extra shotgun for an increased marine power, although power and price are not linearly related. In other words there is less effective return off the conversion from shottie to hmg than from lmg to shottie. Considering the effective returns off going from fade to onos (ummm .... none?) I can't complain.
Another issue that hasn't been brought up. Of all the heavy weapons, I have found the HMG to have the least danger for friendly fire deaths. I'm not too worried about a little damage because that can be medded/welded away, but sadly there is no comm hack to revive a marine. In tight coridors, even the best marines shoot themselves to **** with shotguns. I've seen it tons of times. The problem is that one bad shot and you've done about 50 damage to a friendly (I think its about 50 from a full shottie) while with an HMG you might be in the LOF for a second at the most. The only thing worse than the shottie at this is the GL. I don't think I need to explain that one.
Finally, the shottie is a close combat weapon. The HMG is a close to medium combat weapon. What that is trying to say is the shotgun performs best in close quarters while the HMG is best is medium size rooms and hallways. The problem with having a squad of all shotties is that they cannot deal with no local threats nearly as well as if there was an HMG in the group. It has its purposes, I just don't see many people understanding them.
And btw, I READ THE WHOLE DAMN THREAD EVERYTIME.
*cough*
It's not that it does more damage over time (it does, compared to the GL), its that it takes the enemy's health down by chunks instead of smoothly.
Enemies watching their health and getting ready to run away are often surprised by a sudden drop from 400 to 200 to 0 health in the space of 4 seconds, instead of a smooth drop...
Of course, a fade confronting a shotgunner alone, the fade wins... at least, he should. I do. It still hurts, but you win. And can run away afterwards.
However, 2-3 shotgunners is a serious threat, as they (if well aimed) can kill a fade almost instantly... an onos would have to be charging directly around a corner to even reach the marines...
Basically, the shotty is the danger weapon if I'm on alien. HMG is ... meh, I'll charge at an HMGer as an onos and I can watch my life/armor predictably lower. But against the shotty, its a gamble. If I see 2 shotty guys, as a fade, I'll have to really carefully whittle them down with non-lethal hit and runs until I can handle them both in a second... if I'm an onos... and theres 2 shotty guys... I find another way to go. Because 2 shotty guys can kill an onos in under 5 seconds (often the time it takes to reach them).
At the same time though, if the shotty runs out of ammo, it takes about as long as the GL to fully load up again, so if you can catch a marine reloading it, he's not even a threat to a fade or onos...
What I am saying is in realtion to reality, where the devs even got the idea of putting a shotgun into the game, the shotgun just has the power it truely has.This isn't CS where a person can suck up three rounds 10 feet from you and still kill you. I can't see powering it down as helping , i don't know about you but I don't want to have to shoot a skulk twice or go through a couple reloads to take down a fade. They are very powerful, but the fact is they REALLY are....
Funny thing here is... They said the exact same thing about the fade in 2.0X, THEN THEY NERFED HIM.
Edit: oh... and LMG > All <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulks:
1rst of all, with celerity are so hard to kill(specially with a shotgun)
2nd of all they can upgrade clocking and bite you from the back(gg you saw nothing and knew nothing)
3rd i have to say that regen doesn't help them a lot there...since they are low hp units
4rth the parasite he does is so annoying, the whole alien team can see your movements...
5th Xenoside totaly owns non-HA marines
Lerks:
1rst celerity makes them avoid 1/2 of the bullets(since they fly fast,so with celerity...even faster)
2nd they can use the 2nd ability(which will own all non-HA marines)
3rd adrenaline is absolutly nessecery for lerks(at least that's what i think)
4rth regen helps them live longer.
5th clocking allows them to use the back stab tactic(bite from the back)
n that's all there is to it...
Fades:
1rst celerity & adrenaline are very usefull here...(of course in combat mode)
2nd regen makes them live longer and sometimes, they never die...
3rd cloacking allows them to use, once more, the back stab tactic
no need to write more, but shotgun is well placed in the tech tree, compared to what the aliens can get
What I am saying is in realtion to reality, where the devs even got the idea of putting a shotgun into the game, the shotgun just has the power it truely has.This isn't CS where a person can suck up three rounds 10 feet from you and still kill you. I can't see powering it down as helping , i don't know about you but I don't want to have to shoot a skulk twice or go through a couple reloads to take down a fade. They are very powerful, but the fact is they REALLY are.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't even know where to start...
Let me condense it down into: Games need to be fair, and its in the future versus rhino looking aliens. I don't think real life applies.
And duck, that's what I was trying to say.
Umbra counters shotguns directly and violently, so in combat mode it shouldn't be a problem-
However you don't always have easy access to lerk(as in, going YOURSELF, so you KNOW that the lerk in question is smart with umbra and not a 'flapping nub') in classic mode.
Shotguns deal 170 w/o upgrades, 180 with wepons 1, 200 with wp. 2, and 220 with wp. 3. That's assuming you get every pellet to hit. There are 10 pellets per shell.
Now;
To call the shotgun better at anti-personel than an HMG means you arn't fireing your HMG right. 26 per shot at lv 3, 125 shots, insane ROF. You'll kill a skulk in 4 shots.
And as it stands, a shotgun SHOULD kill a cara skulk easy- 10 res compared to 2 res. A fade or higher should have no problems killing shotgunners, and a lerk can simply spore them.
The shotgun isn't overpowered, even in "good hands" because alines in the same "good hands" can be devistating as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it's 18.5 dmg per shot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In 2.0, it did 170.0 damage if all pellets hit- unless the amount of pellets has changed and/or is simulated as lower than what it actually is, 10 pellets and 17 dmg each(level 0).
In 3.0, it's the same.