I once played a map,2.01,where aliens went sensory.Gorgs were smart....had sensories in some of the chokepoints and stuff.
Problem?The skulks werent.Oh sure there were about 3-4 vets on the aliens and we had good shooters on our team so it was kinda balanced,but we know what happens when aliens meat good shooters in a hallway.Such as the ones on ns_nothing.
Skulks could have waited for the marines to walk right up to them before going on a biting frenzy.Instead,they decided to bite at ranges anywhere from 2-5 meters AWAY from the marine,so they uncloaked and died before being able to close to actually do some damage.
Dont ask me why all the vets on aliens suddenly decided to become stupid.
My local servers problem : Skulks dont know how to use SC,so its rarely used,except for this one occasion where this moron kept going gorg and placing one SC for like 4 maps straight when people wanted DC or MC.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shadowcat+Oct 14 2003, 02:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shadowcat @ Oct 14 2003, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not really, you are all missing the point...
People know that if they put down a sensory chamber for the first hive:
Sensory Chamber + Hive 1 = Instant Win
Why? Well why don't you get 9 aliens to cloak, they crawl into the marine base.. "Guuh, Weres are teh alienz comM? Th3y alwayz Rush!" Then suddenly.... "OMG, I'm being attacked!", then the whole marine team has a skulk on them, and the poor helpless com with his turrets which do not see the aliens soon fall to the ground. Then the commander hits f4, which is a very widely used tactic to lose... The screen fades, game over man, game over! "I knew we should have built the observatory first... But com wanted a res node!.
So finally: 1 hive sensory: Insta Win! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> marine team shouldn't be standing around base.
If marines are exiting the base while aliens are en route, there is the possibility of contact.
You may lose some aliens. Or marines may be tipped off, if you are cloaked but must uncloak to engage. In this case the comm may prepare against a sneak assault, just in case.
But, Let's say a bunch of marines have left base. No one knows you have sensory yet. You all manage to get outside the marine base. Perhaps you restrain yourself, perhaps you don't get cloaking upgrade until you're absolutely sure you don't tip them off, etc. You all sneak into base and suddenly all chomp down on the base.
Here are some possibilities: 1[ you win 2[ marines recalled and defeat the push, then build an obs and/or appropriate D thereafter in every single outpost. 3[ marines reloc, then build an obs and/or appropriate D thereafter in every single outpost.
Assume the marines live. Then you are screwed. For reasons which will become clear, if they are not already.
there were some other things but I forgot. It's late. I procrastinated <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Oh yeah. Alternative. Let's say you all camp outside their base and make sure nobody gets through. Comm can simply build an obs, and marines can use some tactics, perhaps baiting.
Then you are screwed.
Let's say you don't ambush near a large post but rather the chokepoints. Perhaps this will work better. Marine tactics can counter somewhat if marines are vigilant and MT tracks cloaked walkers; I don't know if this is the case.
Chokepoint ambush, or just ambush anywhere in general. You pop out of nowhere, marine = dead. However. This is only if he is not expecting you. There are only so many chokepoints. Suppose the comm and the team expect you. Scanner sweep = then you are screwed. This is especially applicable with smaller teams.
-===/> I think that sensory will do well in chokepoint ambushes and containment just outside the range of the obs, BUT comm can just scan in front of his marines while they push out and then you must fall back. Then, you are uncloaked, thusly W/O any upgrade and facing the marines. You are now worse off than if you had D or M; it is as if you had naked upgrades but had thrown res into a blackhole.
Perhaps you can force the comm to scan unnecessarily, thereby depriving him of scans when the marines need them, allowing you to take advantage of sensory's strengths. Perhaps the surprise uncloak right in front of the marine, w/o tipping off MT, will net some extra kills. Perhaps you can force the comm to build his obs when he can't really afford them, and perhaps you can critically forestall the marine economy. But is this really better than having D or M? And, with containment so difficult, the marines may well set up outposts. Can sensory help at all with assaults against outposts? And, early skilled fades are feared. Is sensory really worth it for fades, over D or M?
I think the major boost of sensory is simply wasting the marine res, if the aliens play really well. But I think aliens are better off with D or M chambers. At least they have clear and combat oriented advantages. If your team is dead you can't do jack sh i t.
If only I could write so much for my paper <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Maj. Mistake+Oct 13 2003, 05:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maj. Mistake @ Oct 13 2003, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sense would be even better if people realised it's not just about cloaking. A cloaking fade is no different to a cloaking skulk, but SoF rocks for fades, it's great for stopping you from running round a corner straight into a group of rines, and instead you know they're there already. If they don't have MT that gives you enough chance to blink in, kill two and blink out before they know what hit them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> better to have been silenced and listen for the marines.
you can listen for the marines anyway I mean, we are using the SoF to avoid deathtraps, rather than ascertaining each and every marine's position.
<!--QuoteBegin--RuSh Of PeONs+Oct 13 2003, 10:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RuSh Of PeONs @ Oct 13 2003, 10:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> DC doesnt effect skulks/gorges/lerks very well and are for larger species, ie a 2nd hive ability. Being able to take one or two extra bullets usualy doesnt help you out so id say its a toss up bwtween sens and move for 1st hive chamber. MC means a mobile strike force, sc means a guerilla style attack force, depends on ur clans tactics but seeing the rambo tactic that evolves from CS and quake etc i dont see how half of u "aww sc is crap" mob could fire up a few brain cells to use tactics in a battle instead of uh, i can hget healed and take 1-2 extra bulets, SPAM DCS SPAM DCS <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Except that aliens usually depend on their higher lifeforms to win, and these lifeforms depend tremendously on the D or M upgrades, whereas SoF is easily replaced by parasite.
Yes, ambushes are more a defensive action- but if you keep them from expanding in this way, all three hives are yours. If you fail to stop their expansion I see this to be because of team skill, rather than chamber balance.
-In a preventive measure of hive lockdowns drop a sensory in each hive room/near it. Even if they scan/kill the chamber you'll immediately know they're there. -Scent of fear means marines cannot hide from you. No expansions will go unnoticed. Unless you ignore them, which has nothing to do with SC being a lesser choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very interesting ideas, however I think the intel function can be replaced adequately with parasite and communication and teamwork.
communication and teamwork you would have needed anyway also you are relying on stopping them as they are trying to set up the post, so to speak. What if the marines are able to fight you off, and you had no combat oriented upgrades?
Of course, if you could contain the marines w/o any effective upgrades, then build a hive, you might be ok. But containing marines w/o any effective upgrades, this is the hard part.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spiking Resources towers? GG! That's nearly 400 lerk spikes. That's alot of time wasted for a lerk. Lerks, btw, are the best anti-personnel unit in the game. You don't want to misallocate your precious man power.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends. If you're doing both then that's better. What I mean by that is you attack a chokepoint with a node like Topographical or West Skylights on ns_veil. Usually marines 90% of the time will attempt to rescue it. When you kill the first wave, spike the rt in your down time. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every class benifits from D chambers, only half the classes really benifit from M chambers (Skulk, Gorge, Lerk), and only one class is really benifited from the S chamber (skulk...).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true, every class benefits from MCs. Skulks (celerity/silence), Gorge (adren), Lerk (adren/silence), Fade (adren/celerity/silence), Onos (celerity). The onos especially needs celerity.
DCs come first to counter eventual marine tech. Its required to combat marine weapons upgrades and electricity. Even if you get the second hive up you a missing the other half of the pie. An onos needs regen/celerity. Take an MC out, you lose celerity. Take a DC out, you lose regen. For lerks and fades, its less of an impact. You can go without adren and still do good so as long you are conservative with your energy. But you will need DC to preserve your fade or lerk.
As soon as aliens are given the ability to forgo a hive and just get upgrade chambers, this chamber order stuff won't matter.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Oct 14 2003, 08:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Oct 14 2003, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every class benifits from D chambers, only half the classes really benifit from M chambers (Skulk, Gorge, Lerk), and only one class is really benifited from the S chamber (skulk...).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true, every class benefits from MCs. Skulks (celerity/silence), Gorge (adren), Lerk (adren/silence), Fade (adren/celerity/silence), Onos (celerity). The onos especially needs celerity.
DCs come first to counter eventual marine tech. Its required to combat marine weapons upgrades and electricity. Even if you get the second hive up you a missing the other half of the pie. An onos needs regen/celerity. Take an MC out, you lose celerity. Take a DC out, you lose regen. For lerks and fades, its less of an impact. You can go without adren and still do good so as long you are conservative with your energy. But you will need DC to preserve your fade or lerk.
As soon as aliens are given the ability to forgo a hive and just get upgrade chambers, this chamber order stuff won't matter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fade and Onos both benifit from M chambers, but M chambers aren't what <b>really</b> make both the fade and the onos great. Regen does, and that upgrade only comes from the D chamber.
A fade with Silence is a waste of 52 res, celerity fade is... (meh), adren fade is the only good way to go in my oppinion. Blinking takes up most if not all of your energy in a big fire fight, having the adrenaline to keep swiping is very important. And having adren to take down Jetpacker's midflight is unsurpassed. However, the reason Adren also rules is because it gives unlimited non-stop blink... unless the marine hacks, he won't be able to track you if you do random movements, and keep yourself from being nailed. So while you are blinking non-stop, you can't be hit very hard (maybe a couple of sprays), and provide cover for smaller lifeforms. However, the real kicker is that with regen, an adren fade can just keep moving while regerating his life back, so you can pretty much give non-stop attacking power. Regen is by far the much more needed and useful upgrade to aquire as a fade, the movement upgrades are just little assets to add on to the real package of a regen fade.
An Onos with celerity is cool... he runs fast, and he dies just as fast without regen. An Onos NEEDS regen to keep his staying power in the battle field.
I find your argument that M chambers are good for the fade and onos to be very weak, and I stand by the fact that D chambers are good for all classes (probably the best upgrades for all classes), M chambers are good for half the classes (well, 3/5 is close enough to half), and S chambers are good for one class.
Finally, to this comment:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Well why don't you get 9 aliens to cloak, they crawl into the marine base.. "Guuh, Weres are teh alienz comM? Th3y alwayz Rush!" Then suddenly.... "OMG, I'm being attacked!", then the whole marine team has a skulk on them, and the poor helpless com with his turrets which do not see the aliens soon fall to the ground. Then the commander hits f4, which is a very widely used tactic to lose... The screen fades, game over man, game over! "I knew we should have built the observatory first... But com wanted a res node!. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what else could do this, is more effective, and has no hard counter to it?
Get 3 DC's. Have all the skulks on your team grab carapace, and rush marine spawn. This is extreamlly powerful, cheap, and effective, and still gives you D chambers to work with if the rush fails.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 14 2003, 12:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 14 2003, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Well why don't you get 9 aliens to cloak, they crawl into the marine base.. "Guuh, Weres are teh alienz comM? Th3y alwayz Rush!" Then suddenly.... "OMG, I'm being attacked!", then the whole marine team has a skulk on them, and the poor helpless com with his turrets which do not see the aliens soon fall to the ground. Then the commander hits f4, which is a very widely used tactic to lose... The screen fades, game over man, game over! "I knew we should have built the observatory first... But com wanted a res node!. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what else could do this, is more effective, and has no hard counter to it?
Get 3 DC's. Have all the skulks on your team grab carapace, and rush marine spawn. This is extreamlly powerful, cheap, and effective, and still gives you D chambers to work with if the rush fails. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or even better, get 3 MC's. Have the skulks get celerity and throw 2-3 adren gorges into the mix. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--EnemyWithin+Oct 14 2003, 09:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EnemyWithin @ Oct 14 2003, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 14 2003, 12:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 14 2003, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Well why don't you get 9 aliens to cloak, they crawl into the marine base.. "Guuh, Weres are teh alienz comM? Th3y alwayz Rush!" Then suddenly.... "OMG, I'm being attacked!", then the whole marine team has a skulk on them, and the poor helpless com with his turrets which do not see the aliens soon fall to the ground. Then the commander hits f4, which is a very widely used tactic to lose... The screen fades, game over man, game over! "I knew we should have built the observatory first... But com wanted a res node!. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what else could do this, is more effective, and has no hard counter to it?
Get 3 DC's. Have all the skulks on your team grab carapace, and rush marine spawn. This is extreamlly powerful, cheap, and effective, and still gives you D chambers to work with if the rush fails. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or even better, get 3 MC's. Have the skulks get celerity and throw 2-3 adren gorges into the mix. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, D chambers are much better, if the rush fails with D chambers you are still in the game with your early fades, but with M chambers you are probably gonna be screwed as you HAVE to get up the second hive which a good marine team can usually prevent.
Also, you can repeat the skulk rush if they don't shore up defenses... and for a measly 2 res per skulk on the team.
this kind of comment "cloak is worthless to Fades and Onoses"
then use "Scent of Fear"
just because you are bigger doesn't mean you have to plow into them all i can't recall how many times SOF allowed me to trim a group of marines to none ooo...that one is farther from the pack ....<i>Slash</i> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--EnemyWithin+Oct 14 2003, 10:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EnemyWithin @ Oct 14 2003, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would rather have an adren gorge by my side, then have carapace. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can have an adrenaline gorge at your side (and celerity if you want), or you can have carapace with a regen gorge at your side. If you are going to say that there is a gorge there, then it should be there in both cases. Also, if you are living long enough in a fight for a non-adrenaline gorge to run out of adrenaline, then you really will benefit from carapace or regen, even as a skulk.
I'm not trying to say that defense chambers are better than movement chambers. I am simply pointing out that this was a bad argument for movement chambers.
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Oct 13 2003, 11:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Oct 13 2003, 11:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Spikes. Yes, it takes 30-60 seconds or so to kill it. It is not as quick as a Fade. D is defineteky the easisest way to take down elec nodes but.. I already said that. Lerk spikes *is* an option though, and it does work.
- Teamwork. Ok.. I hope that's a hyperbole but if you are seriosu, I can only say that I am sorry for you and I hope you find some better servers to play on. I have no problem at all 99% of teh time to get someone to help me out with something like this. I mean, please, it takes only one gorge and a skulk. If it took 4 gorges, 2 skulks and a silenced lerk then I would agree that it was a bit too much effort to expect on pubs.
- Gimp. I disagree completely. M and S are in my opinion by far the strongest in the early stages of the game, at one hive level. D's become essential when you get your fades, but as far as skulk/lerks/gorges go, M is even better then D. You may not get upgrades (I have a hunch you save for fade most of the time <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) but silenced or celerity skulks are *very* nasty.
M is not *as easy* as D when it comes to: - Killing elec nodes - Breaking two-hive lockdown But it is still very possible, and not that hard. With teamwork, M is even stronger (adren gorges + onos > onos + regen). D is the prefered "rambo" chamber because it means you are less dependant on your team, something I guess is prevalent in the pubs you play. I play with teamwork in mind, so I prefer something who's benefits are increased the most by it.
I would say that D and M are about equally good as first choices, if you don't have any teamwork, D is better, if you have a lot of teamwork, M is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> - It takes 75 fade swipes, and 375 lerk spikes... dude, spiking an RT to death is extreamly slow. There's a reason Flay made spikes so weak and rapid. While spikes rule at killing single marines at a distance, it sucks terribly for killing any structures at all... You are wasting lerk power by killing an RT with a lerk. Killing an RT with a gorge/skulk takes 80 bites, with lots of frequent healing, not to mention it takes up <b>two</b> members of your team, as opposed to one. This is quite significant.
- Lets say you get gorges to back you up; the thing is relying on gorges as the only way to heal is risky, they can still die quite easily. If you go D first, then gorges will be even stronger, thus ensuring they will always be around to heal you.
- I wouldn't say that a celerity skulks is anymore deadly than a carapaced skulk. They are probably equal in terms of effectiveness. One lets you live longer, allowing you to get up close and kill the marine, while the other makes you get up close faster, making it so you can kill the marine before you die. Both are equal when you charge a marine head on. And, when you ambush, I'd definatly say Carapace is better, because celerity doesn't make you bite faster, or live longer. Celerity however, is much better at getting you in the nessesary ambush spots in the first place, as you can move into them fast enough. So Celerity = Carapace.
Now, in terms of staying power, regen skulk is far more valuable, I'd say the large majority of people underesitmate how powerful a regen skulk is. If you can't kill a regen skulk, he will never, ever, leave his patrol route, making him quite the nasty critter.
And by far the best movement upgrade for a skulk is silence, this will kill the best players with EASE, providing you manage to sneak up around them. Silenced skulks are easily the most deadly version of skulks around.
- As for saying that gorges are better with Adren over carapace or regen, I'd have to beg to differ... Gorge rushes are twice as effective with D chambers. You don't need unlimited healspray, it's more important to surrive a clip with the staying power carapace or regen gives you. Also, redempt gorges rock, they will always be hording their res for the entire length of the game building tons and tons of stuff for your team while never dying.
- With teamwork, D is stronger than M chambers could ever hope to be, (Regen Gorges + Regen Onos > Adren Gorges + Celerity Onos). D has the slant of being a 'rambo' chamber, my only guess this is from hordes of angry pubbers who learned that their cheap gimmick sensory chambers and not quite as useful M chambers are less than what the D chamber has to offer. People like to 'rambo' with D chambers because you can actually manage to do such a feat with D chambers. That's right, achieve more (kills) with less (players). Movement chambers have no such redeeming quality about them. Not only can alien players 'rambo' with D chambers (seems like an odd term to use, aliens were designed with a rambo quality in them), but they can also work as a team, in which case it becomes 10x more potent than any other chamber avalible.
<!--QuoteBegin--i'm lost+Oct 14 2003, 05:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Oct 14 2003, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--EnemyWithin+Oct 14 2003, 10:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EnemyWithin @ Oct 14 2003, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I would rather have an adren gorge by my side, then have carapace. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can have an adrenaline gorge at your side (and celerity if you want), or you can have carapace with a regen gorge at your side. If you are going to say that there is a gorge there, then it should be there in both cases. Also, if you are living long enough in a fight for a non-adrenaline gorge to run out of adrenaline, then you really will benefit from carapace or regen, even as a skulk.
I'm not trying to say that defense chambers are better than movement chambers. I am simply pointing out that this was a bad argument for movement chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A regen gorge is nice, but no where near as effective on the frontline as an adren gorge. One regen gorge per two cara skulks might work ok, but with MC's you can have two adren gorges (so they can heal each other) take care of the entire team of skulks. A frontline gorge really needs adren. I can recall many times when I was a regen gorge trying to heal my teammates on the frontlines and having to fall back after about 5 seconds of healing. The energy just comes back so slow without adren.
Personally, I think that both DC's and MC's are great 1st chambers with DC's definately the better choice in a 2-hive lockdown situation. As a skulk, I just enjoy the MC upgrades more (silence!) at the beginning of the game. Although if I had my choice as a skulk, I would take SoF over all other upgrades. It's too bad that regen and adren are so important to the larger aliens <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
If regen and adren weren't so important in winning the game, maybe SC's could be more viable as a first chamber. Giving aliens a natural regen (a slow one like chambers...maybe half current regen upgrade?) and a faster energy recharge (so adren wasn't so important) might solve the problem.
These days it isn't uncommon to skip upgrade chambers until the 2nd hive is going up. Base skulks can hold there own for the first couple of minutes, unless the marines go for early upgrades. A good alien team should have the 2nd hive going up around the 4-5 minute mark. At that point, you can drop the MC's and DC's at the same time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Oct 14 2003, 07:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 14 2003, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - As for saying that gorges are better with Adren over carapace or regen, I'd have to beg to differ... Gorge rushes are twice as effective with D chambers. You don't need unlimited healspray, it's more important to surrive a clip with the staying power carapace or regen gives you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's interesting, as I have had the exact opposite experience. With adren, gorges have almost unlimited healing, so why would you need regen? You heal each other and kill marines at the same time and you rarely have to rest. With regen you dont have to heal each other as much, but you have much less offensive staying power in the battle. A group of regen gorges has an advantage on the defensive end, but their offensive capabilities are much worse. Since healspray is both offensive and defensive, I'll take the adren gorge gang everytime <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The thing about sensory chambers is that they're only effective if a web of them is built. Unfortunately, that requires a lot of resources, patience, and dedicated gorges, all of which rarely happen on publics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- It takes 75 fade swipes, and 375 lerk spikes... dude, spiking an RT to death is extreamly slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am old, I have patience <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, while doing this you aren't wasting your time. When I am sitting around spiking the elec node in Stab Monitoring, a steady flow of Marines wil appear, either to save the node or move to other parts of the map so I have an opportunity to spore them. It's not like it is 1 minute of doing nothing but spiking the RT, you perform other things for your team at the same time, such as killing Marines, locking off that part of the map, pulling the attention of the COM, wasting his res on med packs and drawing reinforcements from the other areas of the map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Lets say you get gorges to back you up; the thing is relying on gorges as the only way to heal is risky, they can still die quite easily. If you go D first, then gorges will be even stronger, thus ensuring they will always be around to heal you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is more true with few gorges and less true with more gorges. As I suspected at the start you're mindset is shaped around smaller teams (I am guessing 6vs6) while mine is set around bigger (10vs10). With 2 gorges, regen might be better, with 4+ gorges adren is far more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- As for saying that gorges are better with Adren over carapace or regen, I'd have to beg to differ... Gorge rushes are twice as effective with D chambers. You don't need unlimited healspray, it's more important to surrive a clip with the staying power carapace or regen gives you. Also, redempt gorges rock, they will always be hording their res for the entire length of the game building tons and tons of stuff for your team while never dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes you DO need unlimited healspray if you're with a big team. If you're not, regen or cara will be better. Redemption is the "hey, I just sold out my team"-upgrade and I never get it, too often does redemption onos or gorges zap out of the fight and leave the people that followed them to die. Once again, if you're with your team, adren will be extremely important, and regen will be very helpful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- With teamwork, D is stronger than M chambers could ever hope to be, (Regen Gorges + Regen Onos > Adren Gorges + Celerity Onos). D has the slant of being a 'rambo' chamber, my only guess this is from hordes of angry pubbers who learned that their cheap gimmick sensory chambers and not quite as useful M chambers are less than what the D chamber has to offer. People like to 'rambo' with D chambers because you can actually manage to do such a feat with D chambers. That's right, achieve more (kills) with less (players). Movement chambers have no such redeeming quality about them. Not only can alien players 'rambo' with D chambers (seems like an odd term to use, aliens were designed with a rambo quality in them), but they can also work as a team, in which case it becomes 10x more potent than any other chamber avalible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most redeeming quality of Movement chambers is actually their teleport ability. As COM I can have a small team, or even a single Marine, kill a growing hive as long as they don't have M. The aliens are pretty much forced to get the closest hive, where as M gives them the ability to pick the furthest if they want, without much of a penalty. It also allows for the "drop a hive and teleport in" tactic etc. Yes, M first requires a second hive (or you will be forced to use a *lot* of teamwork), but it also makes it easier to get and defend a second hive.
For small teams and early fades, D is superior. This is exactly what clan matches are about so I totally understand why most clanners prefer D first. On bigger servers that still has teamwork, M is at least as viable though.
Here's a question about Fades though. The people that are skilled as Fade has no problem going Fade with one hive, assuming they have D. This indicates that adrenaline isn't a big problem. So... why don't they get silence once M is available? Adren is obviosuly not *needed*, celerity only gives a small boost to walking speed and good fades blink all the time anyway... the main drawback of Fades then is the distinct and loud sound they make. Odd.
I do!!! I do!!! ~bounces happily~ The teleport noise is like an alarm bell and I like killing people before they know I'm there so silence is always my movement upgrade with a fade <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--kingmob+Oct 14 2003, 12:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kingmob @ Oct 14 2003, 12:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i can't recall how many times SOF allowed me to trim a group of marines to none ooo...that one is farther from the pack ....<i>Slash</i> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I prefer the ultraviolent surprise, complete with warping around/disappearing act
Isn't every thread being hijacked by the endless sensory debate?
By the way, notice how there aren't any thread claimin that D or M is useless? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Oct 15 2003, 04:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Oct 15 2003, 04:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Isn't every thread being hijacked by the endless sensory debate?
By the way, notice how there aren't any thread claimin that D or M is useless? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because sensory is underused and some people are feel strongly that there are situations other than a n00b marine team in which sensory can be effective. Of course, since there are few people to test it we don't have that much hard info on sensory.
As long as there are stong opinions, someone will speak them out. You can only make them stop of you convince them otherwise. As for sensory, I'm listening.
<!--QuoteBegin--asunder+Oct 15 2003, 06:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (asunder @ Oct 15 2003, 06:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+Oct 15 2003, 04:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Oct 15 2003, 04:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Isn't every thread being hijacked by the endless sensory debate?
By the way, notice how there aren't any thread claimin that D or M is useless? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because sensory is underused and some people are feel strongly that there are situations other than a n00b marine team in which sensory can be effective. Of course, since there are few people to test it we don't have that much hard info on sensory.
As long as there are stong opinions, someone will speak them out. You can only make them stop of you convince them otherwise. As for sensory, I'm listening. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Everyone tested Sensory for months after 2.0 came out. And all of those players agree; sense sucks.
Now, onto real debate:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's a question about Fades though. The people that are skilled as Fade has no problem going Fade with one hive, assuming they have D. This indicates that adrenaline isn't a big problem. So... why don't they get silence once M is available? Adren is obviosuly not *needed*, celerity only gives a small boost to walking speed and good fades blink all the time anyway... the main drawback of Fades then is the distinct and loud sound they make. Odd.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take adren, because it gives uses for all of the fades moves. You just hold down the fire button. This makes me:
- Nearly invincible (If someone with an LMG can kill you while blinking and while you have at least 200 hp, they are hacking... it's inhumanly possible, a random blink is too fast) - A non-stop blinking machine which makes me travel the map in record times - Unlimited swipes, fades need this to kill nodes effectivly, since after you blink to a node, generally you are a bit low on energy, but with adren, no worries there - Unlimited meta; meta is kinda broken, however, I can time it with regen so I heal two times as fast, roughly takes 10 seconds to get to full hp - Once you get acid rockets, adren makes you better than an onos IMO - Basically all I have to do is hold down the +attack button, then when I get close, I hit the lastinv button while holding down the +attack button, allowing me to make super quick hits, then when I have to run, I hit the lastinv button again, and I'm out. I never have to let go of the +attack button really - I think adren is nessesary in order to have effective air to air combat with JP'ers; you can kill JP'ers with adren but it's 3x as difficult - Adren is also useful for killing HA's; blink around them wasting their ammo while taking a shotgun blast or a couple of HMG shots so skulks can get up close and deal a little damage, if you have an onos with stomp you can get up close really fast once they are stomped and start killing them. Fade's really aren't too useful for killing HA's though; however onos counter HA's.
The reason an early fade with D chambers also works is because in the early stages of the game, adren isn't needed, but dhamn, it sure does help. Also, all you can do without adren is blink hop, which is much more predictiable when shooting at and is much more vulerable to shotguns. Regen fades are all you need to kill lower levels of marine tech, but if those upgrades get rolling you will *NEED* adren to win in most cases, unless the marine team makes a huge error.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's interesting, as I have had the exact opposite experience. With adren, gorges have almost unlimited healing, so why would you need regen? You heal each other and kill marines at the same time and you rarely have to rest. With regen you dont have to heal each other as much, but you have much less offensive staying power in the battle. A group of regen gorges has an advantage on the defensive end, but their offensive capabilities are much worse. Since healspray is both offensive and defensive, I'll take the adren gorge gang everytime <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges have unlimited healing, but this isn't the point!
Gorges with adren heal just as fast as gorges without adren.
Gorges with adren die much faster than gorges with regen or carapace.
Understand? It's about surriving! Marines who will connect with all of their LMG bullets and all of their pistol bullets to at least everyone in your gorge gang! Marines who are good at focus firing will most certainly kill you if all you have is adren. You need at least 2-3 gorges to heal one gorge from dying from one marine.
And Stoneburg, don't say because you have more gorges the gorge gang will be more effective; the marines will also have more marines. And marine firepower stacks just as good if not better than alien healspray.
Another thing is that carapaced gorges can live through medium ranged shotgun blasts and then some.
Here's an example of a gorge gang on a public with tons of teamwork that can't be achieved with Movement chambers:
10 man alien team.
6 aliens go gorges.
3 of them make a D chamber. 3 of them evolved at some point in the map to cap a node. 4 aliens stay skulks.
All the aliens rendavous at a point after everything is built.
The gorges that built the D chambers get regen. The gorges that build the RT's get Carapace. The skulks get carapace.
The 3 gorges with carapace lead. The 3 gorges with regen stay behind, to provide heal support. The skulks stay behind. Their job is not to die.
The gorge gang moves forward, and the wall of tubbies get close enough to marines, the skulks leap out of the pack and kill the marines. Very simple. If the skulks need to be healed, they can by jumping in front of the gorges. Or just ask for it.
This gorge gang is much much stronger than a movement gorge gang.
The carapaced gorges job: To live and possibly die, and to jump, and to heal other carapaced gorges. The carapaced gorges need to always stay in the front. Their healspray is important to keep other carapaced gorgies alive.
The regen gorges job: To heal the carapaced gorges and live, as these gorges will be closest to dropping an O chamber after putting down the D chamber, and to jump.
The first skulk to die has goes lerk at the hive, and defends the alien RT's and their hive. An alien hive with 3 DC's and one lerk to spore is <b>extreamlly</b> powerful to anything less than 4 marines.
The other 3 skulks have the following jobs:
One needs to put up the hive, and the other two need to fade.
The only thing that can stop this rush from the marines are shotguns, and a lot of them. Mines help, but carapaced gorges can detonate them and live. (Unless they stack the mines, in which case the gorge is dead, it's best to avoid mines) Turrets are abosulutely useless against this rush, as is electricity.
Part of this plan involves skilled gorges, ones that won't spam healspray but use it as nessesary.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Redemption is the "hey, I just sold out my team"-upgrade and I never get it, too often does redemption onos or gorges zap out of the fight and leave the people that followed them to die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Redemption anything is stupid, with the exception of gorges; gorges are easy to kill, but with redemption they can live to place a chamber another day. This upgrade sucks for teamwork, true, but in terms of sheer building power this upgrade rules. I get it every now and then, and I'm sure one could think of plenty of strats that involve D chambers and redempt gorges.
I'll agree that adren is a godsend when it comes to taking out buildings and acid rocket spammage... it's a pain having to take a quick break when an RT is almost dead or whatever you were splatting only needs one more shot (not that I use acid rockets really anyways =/ ).
Outside of that though I side with Stone. It's nice that adren means you can just hold down the fire button and hit last inv ever few seconds to bypass the hastle and skill involved in just using precise clicks and timing, but you manage well enough without it before it's even available and you're still as loud as a herd of tanks when you blink. If you utilize the things you learnt while blinking without meta properly and use silence you can eliminate lone HAs with ease and harass trains more effectively, getting shot less when you do it because they didn't have a large buzz announcing your arrival. This goes quadruple for LAs; a good silence fade can slay them without taking a hit merely because they didn't realise you're on them until it's too late. And that's not even touching the stealth and confusion caused when silent blinking into a base or around in a fight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Problem?The skulks werent.Oh sure there were about 3-4 vets on the aliens and we had good shooters on our team so it was kinda balanced,but we know what happens when aliens meat good shooters in a hallway.Such as the ones on ns_nothing.
Skulks could have waited for the marines to walk right up to them before going on a biting frenzy.Instead,they decided to bite at ranges anywhere from 2-5 meters AWAY from the marine,so they uncloaked and died before being able to close to actually do some damage.
Dont ask me why all the vets on aliens suddenly decided to become stupid.
My local servers problem : Skulks dont know how to use SC,so its rarely used,except for this one occasion where this moron kept going gorg and placing one SC for like 4 maps straight when people wanted DC or MC.
People know that if they put down a sensory chamber for the first hive:
Sensory Chamber + Hive 1 = Instant Win
Why? Well why don't you get 9 aliens to cloak, they crawl into the marine base.. "Guuh, Weres are teh alienz comM? Th3y alwayz Rush!" Then suddenly.... "OMG, I'm being attacked!", then the whole marine team has a skulk on them, and the poor helpless com with his turrets which do not see the aliens soon fall to the ground. Then the commander hits f4, which is a very widely used tactic to lose... The screen fades, game over man, game over! "I knew we should have built the observatory first... But com wanted a res node!.
So finally: 1 hive sensory: Insta Win! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marine team shouldn't be standing around base.
If marines are exiting the base while aliens are en route, there is the possibility of contact.
You may lose some aliens. Or marines may be tipped off, if you are cloaked but must uncloak to engage. In this case the comm may prepare against a sneak assault, just in case.
But,
Let's say a bunch of marines have left base. No one knows you have sensory yet. You all manage to get outside the marine base. Perhaps you restrain yourself, perhaps you don't get cloaking upgrade until you're absolutely sure you don't tip them off, etc. You all sneak into base and suddenly all chomp down on the base.
Here are some possibilities:
1[ you win
2[ marines recalled and defeat the push, then build an obs and/or appropriate D thereafter in every single outpost.
3[ marines reloc, then build an obs and/or appropriate D thereafter in every single outpost.
Assume the marines live. Then you are screwed. For reasons which will become clear, if they are not already.
there were some other things but I forgot. It's late. I procrastinated <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh yeah. Alternative. Let's say you all camp outside their base and make sure nobody gets through. Comm can simply build an obs, and marines can use some tactics, perhaps baiting.
Then you are screwed.
Let's say you don't ambush near a large post but rather the chokepoints. Perhaps this will work better. Marine tactics can counter somewhat if marines are vigilant and MT tracks cloaked walkers; I don't know if this is the case.
Chokepoint ambush, or just ambush anywhere in general. You pop out of nowhere, marine = dead. However. This is only if he is not expecting you. There are only so many chokepoints. Suppose the comm and the team expect you. Scanner sweep = then you are screwed. This is especially applicable with smaller teams.
-===/>
I think that sensory will do well in chokepoint ambushes and containment just outside the range of the obs, BUT comm can just scan in front of his marines while they push out and then you must fall back. Then, you are uncloaked, thusly W/O any upgrade and facing the marines. You are now worse off than if you had D or M; it is as if you had naked upgrades but had thrown res into a blackhole.
Perhaps you can force the comm to scan unnecessarily, thereby depriving him of scans when the marines need them, allowing you to take advantage of sensory's strengths. Perhaps the surprise uncloak right in front of the marine, w/o tipping off MT, will net some extra kills. Perhaps you can force the comm to build his obs when he can't really afford them, and perhaps you can critically forestall the marine economy. But is this really better than having D or M? And, with containment so difficult, the marines may well set up outposts. Can sensory help at all with assaults against outposts? And, early skilled fades are feared. Is sensory really worth it for fades, over D or M?
I think the major boost of sensory is simply wasting the marine res, if the aliens play really well. But I think aliens are better off with D or M chambers. At least they have clear and combat oriented advantages. If your team is dead you can't do jack sh i t.
If only I could write so much for my paper <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
better to have been silenced and listen for the marines.
you can listen for the marines anyway
I mean, we are using the SoF to avoid deathtraps, rather than ascertaining each and every marine's position.
Except that aliens usually depend on their higher lifeforms to win, and these lifeforms depend tremendously on the D or M upgrades, whereas SoF is easily replaced by parasite.
Cloaking.. we'll not go there
Yes, ambushes are more a defensive action- but if you keep them from expanding in this way, all three hives are yours. If you fail to stop their expansion I see this to be because of team skill, rather than chamber balance.
-In a preventive measure of hive lockdowns drop a sensory in each hive room/near it. Even if they scan/kill the chamber you'll immediately know they're there.
-Scent of fear means marines cannot hide from you. No expansions will go unnoticed. Unless you ignore them, which has nothing to do with SC being a lesser choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very interesting ideas, however I think the intel function can be replaced adequately with parasite and communication and teamwork.
communication and teamwork you would have needed anyway
also you are relying on stopping them as they are trying to set up the post, so to speak. What if the marines are able to fight you off, and you had no combat oriented upgrades?
Of course, if you could contain the marines w/o any effective upgrades, then build a hive, you might be ok. But containing marines w/o any effective upgrades, this is the hard part.
It depends. If you're doing both then that's better. What I mean by that is you attack a chokepoint with a node like Topographical or West Skylights on ns_veil. Usually marines 90% of the time will attempt to rescue it. When you kill the first wave, spike the rt in your down time. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Every class benifits from D chambers, only half the classes really benifit from M chambers (Skulk, Gorge, Lerk), and only one class is really benifited from the S chamber (skulk...).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not true, every class benefits from MCs. Skulks (celerity/silence), Gorge (adren), Lerk (adren/silence), Fade (adren/celerity/silence), Onos (celerity). The onos especially needs celerity.
DCs come first to counter eventual marine tech. Its required to combat marine weapons upgrades and electricity. Even if you get the second hive up you a missing the other half of the pie. An onos needs regen/celerity. Take an MC out, you lose celerity. Take a DC out, you lose regen. For lerks and fades, its less of an impact. You can go without adren and still do good so as long you are conservative with your energy. But you will need DC to preserve your fade or lerk.
As soon as aliens are given the ability to forgo a hive and just get upgrade chambers, this chamber order stuff won't matter.
Not true, every class benefits from MCs. Skulks (celerity/silence), Gorge (adren), Lerk (adren/silence), Fade (adren/celerity/silence), Onos (celerity). The onos especially needs celerity.
DCs come first to counter eventual marine tech. Its required to combat marine weapons upgrades and electricity. Even if you get the second hive up you a missing the other half of the pie. An onos needs regen/celerity. Take an MC out, you lose celerity. Take a DC out, you lose regen. For lerks and fades, its less of an impact. You can go without adren and still do good so as long you are conservative with your energy. But you will need DC to preserve your fade or lerk.
As soon as aliens are given the ability to forgo a hive and just get upgrade chambers, this chamber order stuff won't matter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade and Onos both benifit from M chambers, but M chambers aren't what <b>really</b> make both the fade and the onos great. Regen does, and that upgrade only comes from the D chamber.
A fade with Silence is a waste of 52 res, celerity fade is... (meh), adren fade is the only good way to go in my oppinion. Blinking takes up most if not all of your energy in a big fire fight, having the adrenaline to keep swiping is very important. And having adren to take down Jetpacker's midflight is unsurpassed. However, the reason Adren also rules is because it gives unlimited non-stop blink... unless the marine hacks, he won't be able to track you if you do random movements, and keep yourself from being nailed. So while you are blinking non-stop, you can't be hit very hard (maybe a couple of sprays), and provide cover for smaller lifeforms. However, the real kicker is that with regen, an adren fade can just keep moving while regerating his life back, so you can pretty much give non-stop attacking power. Regen is by far the much more needed and useful upgrade to aquire as a fade, the movement upgrades are just little assets to add on to the real package of a regen fade.
An Onos with celerity is cool... he runs fast, and he dies just as fast without regen. An Onos NEEDS regen to keep his staying power in the battle field.
I find your argument that M chambers are good for the fade and onos to be very weak, and I stand by the fact that D chambers are good for all classes (probably the best upgrades for all classes), M chambers are good for half the classes (well, 3/5 is close enough to half), and S chambers are good for one class.
Finally, to this comment:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Well why don't you get 9 aliens to cloak, they crawl into the marine base.. "Guuh, Weres are teh alienz comM? Th3y alwayz Rush!" Then suddenly.... "OMG, I'm being attacked!", then the whole marine team has a skulk on them, and the poor helpless com with his turrets which do not see the aliens soon fall to the ground. Then the commander hits f4, which is a very widely used tactic to lose... The screen fades, game over man, game over! "I knew we should have built the observatory first... But com wanted a res node!.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what else could do this, is more effective, and has no hard counter to it?
Get 3 DC's. Have all the skulks on your team grab carapace, and rush marine spawn. This is extreamlly powerful, cheap, and effective, and still gives you D chambers to work with if the rush fails.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what else could do this, is more effective, and has no hard counter to it?
Get 3 DC's. Have all the skulks on your team grab carapace, and rush marine spawn. This is extreamlly powerful, cheap, and effective, and still gives you D chambers to work with if the rush fails. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or even better, get 3 MC's. Have the skulks get celerity and throw 2-3 adren gorges into the mix. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what else could do this, is more effective, and has no hard counter to it?
Get 3 DC's. Have all the skulks on your team grab carapace, and rush marine spawn. This is extreamlly powerful, cheap, and effective, and still gives you D chambers to work with if the rush fails. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or even better, get 3 MC's. Have the skulks get celerity and throw 2-3 adren gorges into the mix. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, D chambers are much better, if the rush fails with D chambers you are still in the game with your early fades, but with M chambers you are probably gonna be screwed as you HAVE to get up the second hive which a good marine team can usually prevent.
Also, you can repeat the skulk rush if they don't shore up defenses... and for a measly 2 res per skulk on the team.
this kind of comment
"cloak is worthless to Fades and Onoses"
then use "Scent of Fear"
just because you are bigger doesn't mean you have to plow into them all
i can't recall how many times SOF allowed me to trim a group of marines to none
ooo...that one is farther from the pack ....<i>Slash</i> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Fear it.
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
You can have an adrenaline gorge at your side (and celerity if you want), or you can have carapace with a regen gorge at your side. If you are going to say that there is a gorge there, then it should be there in both cases. Also, if you are living long enough in a fight for a non-adrenaline gorge to run out of adrenaline, then you really will benefit from carapace or regen, even as a skulk.
I'm not trying to say that defense chambers are better than movement chambers. I am simply pointing out that this was a bad argument for movement chambers.
i switched from cara/adren to regen/celerity for fade, but i wont be able to play again for a bit t.t
- Teamwork. Ok.. I hope that's a hyperbole but if you are seriosu, I can only say that I am sorry for you and I hope you find some better servers to play on. I have no problem at all 99% of teh time to get someone to help me out with something like this. I mean, please, it takes only one gorge and a skulk. If it took 4 gorges, 2 skulks and a silenced lerk then I would agree that it was a bit too much effort to expect on pubs.
- Gimp. I disagree completely. M and S are in my opinion by far the strongest in the early stages of the game, at one hive level. D's become essential when you get your fades, but as far as skulk/lerks/gorges go, M is even better then D. You may not get upgrades (I have a hunch you save for fade most of the time <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) but silenced or celerity skulks are *very* nasty.
M is not *as easy* as D when it comes to:
- Killing elec nodes
- Breaking two-hive lockdown
But it is still very possible, and not that hard. With teamwork, M is even stronger (adren gorges + onos > onos + regen). D is the prefered "rambo" chamber because it means you are less dependant on your team, something I guess is prevalent in the pubs you play. I play with teamwork in mind, so I prefer something who's benefits are increased the most by it.
I would say that D and M are about equally good as first choices, if you don't have any teamwork, D is better, if you have a lot of teamwork, M is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
- It takes 75 fade swipes, and 375 lerk spikes... dude, spiking an RT to death is extreamly slow. There's a reason Flay made spikes so weak and rapid. While spikes rule at killing single marines at a distance, it sucks terribly for killing any structures at all... You are wasting lerk power by killing an RT with a lerk. Killing an RT with a gorge/skulk takes 80 bites, with lots of frequent healing, not to mention it takes up <b>two</b> members of your team, as opposed to one. This is quite significant.
- Lets say you get gorges to back you up; the thing is relying on gorges as the only way to heal is risky, they can still die quite easily. If you go D first, then gorges will be even stronger, thus ensuring they will always be around to heal you.
- I wouldn't say that a celerity skulks is anymore deadly than a carapaced skulk. They are probably equal in terms of effectiveness. One lets you live longer, allowing you to get up close and kill the marine, while the other makes you get up close faster, making it so you can kill the marine before you die. Both are equal when you charge a marine head on. And, when you ambush, I'd definatly say Carapace is better, because celerity doesn't make you bite faster, or live longer. Celerity however, is much better at getting you in the nessesary ambush spots in the first place, as you can move into them fast enough. So Celerity = Carapace.
Now, in terms of staying power, regen skulk is far more valuable, I'd say the large majority of people underesitmate how powerful a regen skulk is. If you can't kill a regen skulk, he will never, ever, leave his patrol route, making him quite the nasty critter.
And by far the best movement upgrade for a skulk is silence, this will kill the best players with EASE, providing you manage to sneak up around them. Silenced skulks are easily the most deadly version of skulks around.
- As for saying that gorges are better with Adren over carapace or regen, I'd have to beg to differ... Gorge rushes are twice as effective with D chambers. You don't need unlimited healspray, it's more important to surrive a clip with the staying power carapace or regen gives you. Also, redempt gorges rock, they will always be hording their res for the entire length of the game building tons and tons of stuff for your team while never dying.
- With teamwork, D is stronger than M chambers could ever hope to be, (Regen Gorges + Regen Onos > Adren Gorges + Celerity Onos). D has the slant of being a 'rambo' chamber, my only guess this is from hordes of angry pubbers who learned that their cheap gimmick sensory chambers and not quite as useful M chambers are less than what the D chamber has to offer. People like to 'rambo' with D chambers because you can actually manage to do such a feat with D chambers. That's right, achieve more (kills) with less (players). Movement chambers have no such redeeming quality about them. Not only can alien players 'rambo' with D chambers (seems like an odd term to use, aliens were designed with a rambo quality in them), but they can also work as a team, in which case it becomes 10x more potent than any other chamber avalible.
You can have an adrenaline gorge at your side (and celerity if you want), or you can have carapace with a regen gorge at your side. If you are going to say that there is a gorge there, then it should be there in both cases. Also, if you are living long enough in a fight for a non-adrenaline gorge to run out of adrenaline, then you really will benefit from carapace or regen, even as a skulk.
I'm not trying to say that defense chambers are better than movement chambers. I am simply pointing out that this was a bad argument for movement chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A regen gorge is nice, but no where near as effective on the frontline as an adren gorge. One regen gorge per two cara skulks might work ok, but with MC's you can have two adren gorges (so they can heal each other) take care of the entire team of skulks. A frontline gorge really needs adren. I can recall many times when I was a regen gorge trying to heal my teammates on the frontlines and having to fall back after about 5 seconds of healing. The energy just comes back so slow without adren.
Personally, I think that both DC's and MC's are great 1st chambers with DC's definately the better choice in a 2-hive lockdown situation. As a skulk, I just enjoy the MC upgrades more (silence!) at the beginning of the game. Although if I had my choice as a skulk, I would take SoF over all other upgrades. It's too bad that regen and adren are so important to the larger aliens <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
If regen and adren weren't so important in winning the game, maybe SC's could be more viable as a first chamber. Giving aliens a natural regen (a slow one like chambers...maybe half current regen upgrade?) and a faster energy recharge (so adren wasn't so important) might solve the problem.
These days it isn't uncommon to skip upgrade chambers until the 2nd hive is going up. Base skulks can hold there own for the first couple of minutes, unless the marines go for early upgrades. A good alien team should have the 2nd hive going up around the 4-5 minute mark. At that point, you can drop the MC's and DC's at the same time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's interesting, as I have had the exact opposite experience. With adren, gorges have almost unlimited healing, so why would you need regen? You heal each other and kill marines at the same time and you rarely have to rest. With regen you dont have to heal each other as much, but you have much less offensive staying power in the battle. A group of regen gorges has an advantage on the defensive end, but their offensive capabilities are much worse. Since healspray is both offensive and defensive, I'll take the adren gorge gang everytime <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I am old, I have patience <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, while doing this you aren't wasting your time. When I am sitting around spiking the elec node in Stab Monitoring, a steady flow of Marines wil appear, either to save the node or move to other parts of the map so I have an opportunity to spore them. It's not like it is 1 minute of doing nothing but spiking the RT, you perform other things for your team at the same time, such as killing Marines, locking off that part of the map, pulling the attention of the COM, wasting his res on med packs and drawing reinforcements from the other areas of the map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- Lets say you get gorges to back you up; the thing is relying on gorges as the only way to heal is risky, they can still die quite easily. If you go D first, then gorges will be even stronger, thus ensuring they will always be around to heal you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is more true with few gorges and less true with more gorges. As I suspected at the start you're mindset is shaped around smaller teams (I am guessing 6vs6) while mine is set around bigger (10vs10). With 2 gorges, regen might be better, with 4+ gorges adren is far more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- As for saying that gorges are better with Adren over carapace or regen, I'd have to beg to differ... Gorge rushes are twice as effective with D chambers. You don't need unlimited healspray, it's more important to surrive a clip with the staying power carapace or regen gives you. Also, redempt gorges rock, they will always be hording their res for the entire length of the game building tons and tons of stuff for your team while never dying.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes you DO need unlimited healspray if you're with a big team. If you're not, regen or cara will be better. Redemption is the "hey, I just sold out my team"-upgrade and I never get it, too often does redemption onos or gorges zap out of the fight and leave the people that followed them to die. Once again, if you're with your team, adren will be extremely important, and regen will be very helpful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- With teamwork, D is stronger than M chambers could ever hope to be, (Regen Gorges + Regen Onos > Adren Gorges + Celerity Onos). D has the slant of being a 'rambo' chamber, my only guess this is from hordes of angry pubbers who learned that their cheap gimmick sensory chambers and not quite as useful M chambers are less than what the D chamber has to offer. People like to 'rambo' with D chambers because you can actually manage to do such a feat with D chambers. That's right, achieve more (kills) with less (players). Movement chambers have no such redeeming quality about them. Not only can alien players 'rambo' with D chambers (seems like an odd term to use, aliens were designed with a rambo quality in them), but they can also work as a team, in which case it becomes 10x more potent than any other chamber avalible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The most redeeming quality of Movement chambers is actually their teleport ability. As COM I can have a small team, or even a single Marine, kill a growing hive as long as they don't have M. The aliens are pretty much forced to get the closest hive, where as M gives them the ability to pick the furthest if they want, without much of a penalty. It also allows for the "drop a hive and teleport in" tactic etc. Yes, M first requires a second hive (or you will be forced to use a *lot* of teamwork), but it also makes it easier to get and defend a second hive.
For small teams and early fades, D is superior. This is exactly what clan matches are about so I totally understand why most clanners prefer D first. On bigger servers that still has teamwork, M is at least as viable though.
Here's a question about Fades though. The people that are skilled as Fade has no problem going Fade with one hive, assuming they have D. This indicates that adrenaline isn't a big problem. So... why don't they get silence once M is available? Adren is obviosuly not *needed*, celerity only gives a small boost to walking speed and good fades blink all the time anyway... the main drawback of Fades then is the distinct and loud sound they make. Odd.
The teleport noise is like an alarm bell and I like killing people before they know I'm there so silence is always my movement upgrade with a fade <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I feel special now =P
ooo...that one is farther from the pack ....<i>Slash</i> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I prefer the ultraviolent surprise, complete with warping around/disappearing act
By the way, notice how there aren't any thread claimin that D or M is useless? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
By the way, notice how there aren't any thread claimin that D or M is useless? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because sensory is underused and some people are feel strongly that there are situations other than a n00b marine team in which sensory can be effective. Of course, since there are few people to test it we don't have that much hard info on sensory.
As long as there are stong opinions, someone will speak them out. You can only make them stop of you convince them otherwise. As for sensory, I'm listening.
By the way, notice how there aren't any thread claimin that D or M is useless? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because sensory is underused and some people are feel strongly that there are situations other than a n00b marine team in which sensory can be effective. Of course, since there are few people to test it we don't have that much hard info on sensory.
As long as there are stong opinions, someone will speak them out. You can only make them stop of you convince them otherwise. As for sensory, I'm listening. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone tested Sensory for months after 2.0 came out. And all of those players agree; sense sucks.
Now, onto real debate:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Here's a question about Fades though. The people that are skilled as Fade has no problem going Fade with one hive, assuming they have D. This indicates that adrenaline isn't a big problem. So... why don't they get silence once M is available? Adren is obviosuly not *needed*, celerity only gives a small boost to walking speed and good fades blink all the time anyway... the main drawback of Fades then is the distinct and loud sound they make. Odd.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take adren, because it gives uses for all of the fades moves. You just hold down the fire button. This makes me:
- Nearly invincible (If someone with an LMG can kill you while blinking and while you have at least 200 hp, they are hacking... it's inhumanly possible, a random blink is too fast)
- A non-stop blinking machine which makes me travel the map in record times
- Unlimited swipes, fades need this to kill nodes effectivly, since after you blink to a node, generally you are a bit low on energy, but with adren, no worries there
- Unlimited meta; meta is kinda broken, however, I can time it with regen so I heal two times as fast, roughly takes 10 seconds to get to full hp
- Once you get acid rockets, adren makes you better than an onos IMO
- Basically all I have to do is hold down the +attack button, then when I get close, I hit the lastinv button while holding down the +attack button, allowing me to make super quick hits, then when I have to run, I hit the lastinv button again, and I'm out. I never have to let go of the +attack button really
- I think adren is nessesary in order to have effective air to air combat with JP'ers; you can kill JP'ers with adren but it's 3x as difficult
- Adren is also useful for killing HA's; blink around them wasting their ammo while taking a shotgun blast or a couple of HMG shots so skulks can get up close and deal a little damage, if you have an onos with stomp you can get up close really fast once they are stomped and start killing them. Fade's really aren't too useful for killing HA's though; however onos counter HA's.
The reason an early fade with D chambers also works is because in the early stages of the game, adren isn't needed, but dhamn, it sure does help. Also, all you can do without adren is blink hop, which is much more predictiable when shooting at and is much more vulerable to shotguns. Regen fades are all you need to kill lower levels of marine tech, but if those upgrades get rolling you will *NEED* adren to win in most cases, unless the marine team makes a huge error.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's interesting, as I have had the exact opposite experience. With adren, gorges have almost unlimited healing, so why would you need regen? You heal each other and kill marines at the same time and you rarely have to rest. With regen you dont have to heal each other as much, but you have much less offensive staying power in the battle. A group of regen gorges has an advantage on the defensive end, but their offensive capabilities are much worse. Since healspray is both offensive and defensive, I'll take the adren gorge gang everytime <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges have unlimited healing, but this isn't the point!
Gorges with adren heal just as fast as gorges without adren.
Gorges with adren die much faster than gorges with regen or carapace.
Understand? It's about surriving! Marines who will connect with all of their LMG bullets and all of their pistol bullets to at least everyone in your gorge gang! Marines who are good at focus firing will most certainly kill you if all you have is adren. You need at least 2-3 gorges to heal one gorge from dying from one marine.
And Stoneburg, don't say because you have more gorges the gorge gang will be more effective; the marines will also have more marines. And marine firepower stacks just as good if not better than alien healspray.
Another thing is that carapaced gorges can live through medium ranged shotgun blasts and then some.
Here's an example of a gorge gang on a public with tons of teamwork that can't be achieved with Movement chambers:
10 man alien team.
6 aliens go gorges.
3 of them make a D chamber.
3 of them evolved at some point in the map to cap a node.
4 aliens stay skulks.
All the aliens rendavous at a point after everything is built.
The gorges that built the D chambers get regen.
The gorges that build the RT's get Carapace.
The skulks get carapace.
The 3 gorges with carapace lead.
The 3 gorges with regen stay behind, to provide heal support.
The skulks stay behind. Their job is not to die.
The gorge gang moves forward, and the wall of tubbies get close enough to marines, the skulks leap out of the pack and kill the marines. Very simple. If the skulks need to be healed, they can by jumping in front of the gorges. Or just ask for it.
This gorge gang is much much stronger than a movement gorge gang.
The carapaced gorges job: To live and possibly die, and to jump, and to heal other carapaced gorges. The carapaced gorges need to always stay in the front. Their healspray is important to keep other carapaced gorgies alive.
The regen gorges job: To heal the carapaced gorges and live, as these gorges will be closest to dropping an O chamber after putting down the D chamber, and to jump.
The first skulk to die has goes lerk at the hive, and defends the alien RT's and their hive. An alien hive with 3 DC's and one lerk to spore is <b>extreamlly</b> powerful to anything less than 4 marines.
The other 3 skulks have the following jobs:
One needs to put up the hive, and the other two need to fade.
The only thing that can stop this rush from the marines are shotguns, and a lot of them. Mines help, but carapaced gorges can detonate them and live. (Unless they stack the mines, in which case the gorge is dead, it's best to avoid mines) Turrets are abosulutely useless against this rush, as is electricity.
Part of this plan involves skilled gorges, ones that won't spam healspray but use it as nessesary.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Redemption is the "hey, I just sold out my team"-upgrade and I never get it, too often does redemption onos or gorges zap out of the fight and leave the people that followed them to die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Redemption anything is stupid, with the exception of gorges; gorges are easy to kill, but with redemption they can live to place a chamber another day. This upgrade sucks for teamwork, true, but in terms of sheer building power this upgrade rules. I get it every now and then, and I'm sure one could think of plenty of strats that involve D chambers and redempt gorges.
Outside of that though I side with Stone. It's nice that adren means you can just hold down the fire button and hit last inv ever few seconds to bypass the hastle and skill involved in just using precise clicks and timing, but you manage well enough without it before it's even available and you're still as loud as a herd of tanks when you blink.
If you utilize the things you learnt while blinking without meta properly and use silence you can eliminate lone HAs with ease and harass trains more effectively, getting shot less when you do it because they didn't have a large buzz announcing your arrival. This goes quadruple for LAs; a good silence fade can slay them without taking a hit merely because they didn't realise you're on them until it's too late.
And that's not even touching the stealth and confusion caused when silent blinking into a base or around in a fight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As long as elementry squad cover is used, that silenced fade is goin down.