I didn't vote because I wanted to see how the new lerk would turn out.
Now I have, and I don't like it.
I certainly go lerk occasionally, but I still don't find it nearly as fun as the 1.04 lerk. I KNOW it's health has gone up, but it's armour has gone down, so it IS weaker overall <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have commented many times that the new lerk is made of wet toilet paper. I stand by that comment.
I don't nessesarily want to see lerk bite back (although I DID enjoy lerk bite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but I definatly want to see the lerk tweaked for 2.1. Spores are no fun for marines, they are essentially the alien siege weapon, but without the ability to kill heavies or structures.
I never played 1.0, so my POV is from the 2.0 and up brigade.
Regardless of what the lerk was in the past, right NOW it seems to have found a good niche in the assault/support role. No other class really approaches it, and its also extremely flexible and easy to learn.
In games with new players, lerks are easy to evolve to, and easy to make the most use of. Consider the Fade, very much the veteran's choice, and the Onos, which while favoured by smacktards is hard to get any valid use out of on its own.
The lerk is good on its own, or with friends. Its abilities are maximised by teamplay, and any newbie lerk player can be assured of someone asking for umbra support.
As it is, right now, I like the lerk. I am unsure of the effects of removing spikes for bite, other than to emphasise spore use - and against HA the lerk would require a lot of skill to even scratch HA, whereas current lerk can spike it from a distance.
I'd be concerned that making the lerk rely more on skill would disadvantage the alien team, and make two classes effectively veteran players only.
In another thread, I addressed the effects of possible lerk weapon switches, and a lot of it would apply here too.
Well people have been saying lerks need a viable way to kill HA, I say remove primal scream from the 4th slot ( Such a noise coming from such a little squirt was just wrong anyways <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) And maybe add a corrosive-film shooter, that just eats the armor of marines (especially useful vs. HA's)
Much like the Fade , the Lerk feels a bit too weak for 30 res. Right now that's the cost of a HA HMG... Someone suggested that the Lerk could bite marines by jumping into them , like the close-range kicks in The Specialists mod. That would save a weapon slot... and give the Lerk a new free ability !
An other possibility is to let the Lerk latch on marines and lift them in high air , would increase the fun factor tenfolds.
Who cares!?!? We got the fade now which has more HP and armor and could do everything the 1.0 lerk could do but <i>better</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr Charisma+Oct 10 2003, 09:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Charisma @ Oct 10 2003, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I have hathered from playing as lerk in 2.0 compared to 1.0x. Is that the lerk is NOT designed to take on bands of marines and fly away chuckling with a few kills. It's ment to be hit, run hit again. Or support other attacking aliens, there was a reason they gave it primal scream, and umbra (with range). Think about it.
Lerk's aren't designed to take on bands of marines? Why is it I'm wiping out marines left and right on the servers as a lerk? I've been experimenting with the lerk lately and the stupid thing needs a good wack of the nerf stick. Well, maybe have its abilities rearranged or something. A "support" unit shouldn't be able to take down groups of marines on his own.
IMO 1.0 lerk was more fun but greatly overpowered <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I think that they should get rid of primal scream and have bite back as you never really see PS used in pubs anyway. This would mean that a 1 hive lerk would have bite and spikes - 2 hives would be spores (which would be better as marines arn't being gased to death from the start) and that would mean umbra moves to hive 3. What do people think?
"I think that they should get rid of primal scream and have bite back as you never really see PS used in pubs anyway"
I don't see many things used on pub servers but that don't mean we should take them all out. Scream is very handy in a 3 hives vs lamed to hell base scenario.
Adding the lerk bite back in is a great idea, there is zero need to have the fade be a melee air combat unit it makes no sense at all, either that or there should be a new air melee unit. I feel that if fade blink should be nerfed (which it is suppose to), that lerk bite should added back in to combat jps once again.
<!--QuoteBegin--Yumosis+Oct 11 2003, 07:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Oct 11 2003, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adding the lerk bite back in is a great idea, there is zero need to have the fade be a melee air combat unit it makes no sense at all, either that or there should be a new air melee unit. I feel that if fade blink should be nerfed (which it is suppose to), that lerk bite should added back in to combat jps once again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What type of muppet would try to bite a jet packer as lerk?
<!--QuoteBegin--CheesyPeteza+Oct 11 2003, 08:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ Oct 11 2003, 08:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What type of muppet would try to bite a jet packer as lerk? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> eh? thats what we lived for pre 2.0, we joined a server, with the intention of going lerk, for the purpose of destroying the JP rush... so my answer would be, the ones who could???
People keep reverting back to the "support" class subject, well...
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> = Support, slow moving low damage attacks, web, and bilebomb and builds. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> = Scout primarily, however USED as a light assault class <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> = Medium assault class, heavy amount of overkill in the early game <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> = Heavy assault class, unless dealing with lvl3 tech, will not die with 3 hives (and the right knowledge of course) <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> = Support class, fast moving, very low damage attacks, and a seemingly pointless umbra now (come on, face it, its just far to thin now, and last little more than a second, doesnt stack either)
In my opinion, bringing back bite for lerks, same as early 1.0 or same as late 1.0, will mean we see more and more lerks flying about the maps after the mid-game.
People seem to be saying remove spikes for bite... come on, are u insane? Spikes are a fun element to the Lerk, Spores are not fun, people will argue this because spores is what they see lerk for, and nothing more.
The above would make the lerk still be a support and light assault class.
Just another thing, the lerk doesnt "feel" as heavy as it did before either, the flight is a bit to easy but thats to be expected i guess <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't know why you want the lerk to be another melee class. I'm glad it's been changed to a skirmisher/support class. Go skulk or fade if you want close quarter combat that relies on speed. The 1.0x lerk was too cheap. 2.0x umbra could do with buffing, though - I actually got shouted at for umbra'ing my team instead of sporing the enemy in a game today. :/
If you're going to add bite back in, to make it a support class I'd do it in one of these orders:
0. Spike 1. Bite 2. Umbra 3. Old strength spore
or
0. Spike 1. Umbra 2. Bite 3. Old strength spore
The first one is a 1.0 lerk, which early on would be too agressive imo. The second would plonk the lerk firmly in the support class if you nerfed umbra even more.
I'd really like the old spores in at 3 hives as I'm fed up with 1 RT turtling. LAs didn't last very long against the old spores and this would <b>support</b> the other aliens in destroying the base.
<!--QuoteBegin--Snidely+Oct 11 2003, 03:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Oct 11 2003, 03:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know why you want the lerk to be another melee class. I'm glad it's been changed to a skirmisher/support class. Go skulk or fade if you want close quarter combat that relies on speed. The 1.0x lerk was too cheap. 2.0x umbra could do with buffing, though - I actually got shouted at for umbra'ing my team instead of sporing the enemy in a game today. :/<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe because the lerk was a melee unit for a lot longer than it was a support unit? I mean lots of people wasted their time on mastering something that isn't even around anymore, shame huh? Guess it sucks to be them. Lerks should at least have the choice of what they want to be; gorges are support and arn't really for attacking yet they still have spit to protect themselves. Maybe we should have removed spit too?
im against lerk bite being back in. lerks in 1.0x were stronger skulks that could fly... gg WTH is that
flayra wanted the lerk to be a support character.. and thats its exactly what it is. spores + spikes for long range support, umbra for all around support, and then ther eis primal scream which allows aliens to go crazy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> adding bite back in would throw off the balance of ns
Yumosis, pining for what it WAS isn't entirely relevant to what it IS now.
Lots of things change, people have to adapt. An old lerk in modern NS would need tweaks to all the other classes, and right now the lerk seems to fit its assault/support role very well. The gorge is largely defensive/support. Sounds fair.
IMO, 1 hive bite/spores, 2 hive spikes, and 3 hives umbra would be an ideal situation. I also think there should be higher energy cost for spikes, so that without high level adren you basically have to sit still or suffer an incredibly low fire rate, helping to balence out the "support class" role. As it stands, a vanilla lerk at the start of the game gives an incredible distance advantage almost immediately, with the spike/spore combo. I think the bite needs to come back so that the vanilla lerk has to get close and have excellent skill to do major damage, unlike with point n shoot spikes. Lerning to lerk bite well took incredible skill, and was certainly my favorite part of 1.04.
So, at one hive you'd have your support class. Spores to confuse the marines and weaken them so the skulks can blow in and finish them off. And should the lerk have to defend itself, or be faced with a lone marine and no backup, he can finish him off. At two hives, youll probably have a fade or two, and full cara and full adren on the way. The marines will have better armor, weapons, and will be working on (or possibly have) jp or HA. The spikes make the perfect addition to the fade for combatting stronger marines. A higher energy cost would make the lerk have to choose his shots carefully instead of spamming away. The spores are still useful for weakening groups of marines. At hive 3 you have umbra, at which point your probably facing either JP's, HA, both, or incompetent marines. I think umbra should be pushed back to hive 3, an umbra lerk and onos or fade is damn near unstoppable. Theres really not much of a reason currently to go for 3 hives unless your facing huge HA squads.
<!--QuoteBegin--Yumosis+Oct 11 2003, 03:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Yumosis @ Oct 11 2003, 03:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe because the lerk was a melee unit for a lot longer than it was a support unit? I mean lots of people wasted their time on mastering something that isn't even around anymore, shame huh? Guess it sucks to be them. Lerks should at least have the choice of what they want to be; gorges are support and arn't really for attacking yet they still have spit to protect themselves. Maybe we should have removed spit too? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You <i>do</i> get a choice of what you want to be; it's just that if you want melee, don't lerk. If you don't want to pay for melee, get skulk. If you want the modern equivilent of fly-by kills, get fade.
The spit analogy is bogus. I'm not advocating that lerks should be utterly helpless (and they certainly aren't without bite). The lerks have spikes and spores with which they can easily defend themselves. It's just that they aren't the lethal fly-by-biters they once were.
<!--QuoteBegin--moguai+Oct 11 2003, 11:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moguai @ Oct 11 2003, 11:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IMO, 1 hive bite/spores, 2 hive spikes, and 3 hives umbra would be an ideal situation. I also think there should be higher energy cost for spikes, so that without high level adren you basically have to sit still or suffer an incredibly low fire rate, helping to balence out the "support class" role. As it stands, a vanilla lerk at the start of the game gives an incredible distance advantage almost immediately, with the spike/spore combo. I think the bite needs to come back so that the vanilla lerk has to get close and have excellent skill to do major damage, unlike with point n shoot spikes. Lerning to lerk bite well took incredible skill, and was certainly my favorite part of 1.04.
So, at one hive you'd have your support class. Spores to confuse the marines and weaken them so the skulks can blow in and finish them off. And should the lerk have to defend itself, or be faced with a lone marine and no backup, he can finish him off. At two hives, youll probably have a fade or two, and full cara and full adren on the way. The marines will have better armor, weapons, and will be working on (or possibly have) jp or HA. The spikes make the perfect addition to the fade for combatting stronger marines. A higher energy cost would make the lerk have to choose his shots carefully instead of spamming away. The spores are still useful for weakening groups of marines. At hive 3 you have umbra, at which point your probably facing either JP's, HA, both, or incompetent marines. I think umbra should be pushed back to hive 3, an umbra lerk and onos or fade is damn near unstoppable. Theres really not much of a reason currently to go for 3 hives unless your facing huge HA squads. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hive 3 umbra is far too late.
If aliens got all 3 hives there's no use casting umbra because you've already won <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bite,Spores,Umbra,Primal or Bite,Spikes,Umbra,Spores (better)
I think that the lerk is very fine in it's role as is... No need to change it's hive abilities whatsoever.
The only thing that needs changing is it's life expectancy, which right now is very low given the amount of resources it costs. Increasing it's armor a notch, would fix that.
The umbra needs to be made a little better again, 1/2 is quite low, 2/3 would be a lot better.
Also, I would suggest that spores would work on HA, but not at full damage, but rather 1/4 to 1/8 damage. That would "soften" the HA a little bit.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aelius+Oct 11 2003, 11:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aelius @ Oct 11 2003, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that the lerk is very fine in it's role as is... No need to change it's hive abilities whatsoever.
The only thing that needs changing is it's life expectancy, which right now is very low given the amount of resources it costs. Increasing it's armor a notch, would fix that.
The umbra needs to be made a little better again, 1/2 is quite low, 2/3 would be a lot better.
Also, I would suggest that spores would work on HA, but not at full damage, but rather 1/4 to 1/8 damage. That would "soften" the HA a little bit.
Aelius <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The old 60hp 50ap lerk lived longer than the 125hp 25ap lerk does...
Umbra as it stands is pretty pointless, from a marine point of view, im never worried of going into the umbra to take out whatever is there, from a lerk point of view, why waste the adrenalin.
Heavy armour in all levels of armour has a 90% absorb of damage inflicted, spores are neglegable in effect to light armour, so against heavy armour, all it would do is nock of armour points.
im sorry but i must disagree... when anything has been affected by PS, they attack 3 times faster - lerks shoot like machine guns, onos fades and skulks bite/claw/gore like crazy meaning anything in their path will be mowed down. right now spores is very important because without it marines will be able to walk in to any hive at any point in time with shotguns and just mow through them because nothing would really be able to hurt them all at once. the AoF for spores is what allows aliens to really defend the hive at an early stage -.-
<!--QuoteBegin--snozzle+Oct 11 2003, 11:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (snozzle @ Oct 11 2003, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the AoF for spores is what allows aliens to really defend the hive at an early stage -.- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that would be the 2 minute fade that does that <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
As I was saying in the long (very long) thread about the poll for/against bite, bite requires skill and is a lot of fun. I agree that the lerk is balanced now, but balanced and fun are two separare issues, and I believe that spores, although balanced, are very boring and mindless. Besides, the lerk has a LOT more hp now, so there's never really any chance to die if you for example sit in a vent and spore a marine outpost. Also, I dislike the speed cap the lerk has now, flying doesn't feel as natural as before <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still think the lerk can be balanced as a support unit with bite and WITHOUT spores... Attacking marines from behind with bite or softening them with spikes, for example. If you lower the ridiculous 125 hp to something more reasonable and remove the speed-cap, the lerk will once again require mobility and skill, instead of just spamming spores.
Oh, well... I miss the 1.0x lerk a lot, never play lerk now, but at least you gave us the new fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe that the ideal situation would be something like Hive 1 : bite and spikes, hive 2 umbra, hive 3 spores. Let spores damage heavy armor to compensate for coming at hive #3. Give Primal Scream to the fade as his hive 3-ability (acid rocket at hive 2) and remove metabolize, as it's just regen anyway and that shouldn't be a weapon (imho).
<!--QuoteBegin--rashban+Oct 12 2003, 12:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rashban @ Oct 12 2003, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I was saying in the long (very long) thread about the poll for/against bite, bite requires skill and is a lot of fun. I agree that the lerk is balanced now, but balanced and fun are two separare issues, and I believe that spores, although balanced, are very boring and mindless. Besides, the lerk has a LOT more hp now, so there's never really any chance to die if you for example sit in a vent and spore a marine outpost. Also, I dislike the speed cap the lerk has now, flying doesn't feel as natural as before <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still think the lerk can be balanced as a support unit with bite and WITHOUT spores... Attacking marines from behind with bite or softening them with spikes, for example. If you lower the ridiculous 125 hp to something more reasonable and remove the speed-cap, the lerk will once again require mobility and skill, instead of just spamming spores.
Oh, well... I miss the 1.0x lerk a lot, never play lerk now, but at least you gave us the new fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe that the ideal situation would be something like Hive 1 : bite and spikes, hive 2 umbra, hive 3 spores. Let spores damage heavy armor to compensate for coming at hive #3. Give Primal Scream to the fade as his hive 3-ability (acid rocket at hive 2) and remove metabolize, as it's just regen anyway and that shouldn't be a weapon (imho). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
It has more HP yes but it lacks armor.
But seriously, you want even less health for a lerk!? Then it will require a half pistol round instead of a whole one lol
<!--QuoteBegin--Aelius+Oct 11 2003, 05:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aelius @ Oct 11 2003, 05:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only thing that needs changing is it's life expectancy, which right now is very low given the amount of resources it costs. Increasing it's armor a notch, would fix that.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Lerk's life and armor is truthfully fine. If you increase it, you get the 1.0X problem of them rushing in, killing a few rines and then leaving with still a lot of health. It's a pain right now just trying to kill even a newbie lerk as they are effective at retreating. Add in the vents, and you can't kill them unless you drop twenty res for a nade launcher with the sole purpose of TRYING to kill the lerk with the grenades. Since aliens start out with 25 res, the future lerk just has to kill at least two rines to get enough to lerk and get what upgrade there is if anyone bothered to lay them. The only way to kill them is rushing them with at least three marines, at least till you can get upgrades.
"But seriously, you want even less health for a lerk!? Then it will require a half pistol round instead of a whole one lol "
I know you're joking, it takes about a pistol clip to kill a lerk now. Yes, I want it to have less life... If you let a marine hit you with an entire clip you deserve to die. The lerk in 1.04 was about the fastest thing in any game ever, but if you hit them with a few bullets bullets, they died. (Except the level3-carapaced lerk who took 30 LMG bullets to kill, up from 15 with level 2 carapace... is that a bug or what? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
About the old "super skulk that flies"-argument... what the hell is a fade now? He's exactly that, a super skulk (333% hp <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) that flies, and nobody complains about that.
A problem in NS 2.0, as I see it, is that a lot of the aliens don't really require all that much skill. Both the onos and the lerk cap off fairly rapidly (a person who's played lerk for 10 hours is not that much worse than someone who has been lerk for 200 hours). With skulks you really notice the difference between a good skulk and a bad skulk, but with the lerk and onos the difference isn't that huge.
I still believe that the majority of people who voted against bite didn't play as lerk. If you had a poll about removing devour or some other hated ability, I'm sure the majority of people who would vote against it would be the guys who usually get eaten when they have HA, not the guys who go onos and eat....
When people talk about the 1.04 lerk, they make it sound like any idiot could go lerk and own 5+ marines with bite without dying. That simply wasn't the case, the people able to take on multiple LA/LMG marines at the same time had trained for a long time and died pretty frequenty. The 1.04 lerk and the 2.0 fade are very, very similar in that way... both are able to kill single marines but fall against larger groups. The difference is that the 1.04 lerk did it through speed and surprise, whereas the fade does it by having 250 hp <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
One mans opinion means nothing :/
Now I have, and I don't like it.
I certainly go lerk occasionally, but I still don't find it nearly as fun as the 1.04 lerk. I KNOW it's health has gone up, but it's armour has gone down, so it IS weaker overall <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have commented many times that the new lerk is made of wet toilet paper. I stand by that comment.
I don't nessesarily want to see lerk bite back (although I DID enjoy lerk bite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but I definatly want to see the lerk tweaked for 2.1. Spores are no fun for marines, they are essentially the alien siege weapon, but without the ability to kill heavies or structures.
Regardless of what the lerk was in the past, right NOW it seems to have found a good niche in the assault/support role. No other class really approaches it, and its also extremely flexible and easy to learn.
In games with new players, lerks are easy to evolve to, and easy to make the most use of. Consider the Fade, very much the veteran's choice, and the Onos, which while favoured by smacktards is hard to get any valid use out of on its own.
The lerk is good on its own, or with friends. Its abilities are maximised by teamplay, and any newbie lerk player can be assured of someone asking for umbra support.
As it is, right now, I like the lerk. I am unsure of the effects of removing spikes for bite, other than to emphasise spore use - and against HA the lerk would require a lot of skill to even scratch HA, whereas current lerk can spike it from a distance.
I'd be concerned that making the lerk rely more on skill would disadvantage the alien team, and make two classes effectively veteran players only.
In another thread, I addressed the effects of possible lerk weapon switches, and a lot of it would apply here too.
Would make lerks a more useful class IMO
Someone suggested that the Lerk could bite marines by jumping into them , like the close-range kicks in The Specialists mod. That would save a weapon slot... and give the Lerk a new free ability !
An other possibility is to let the Lerk latch on marines and lift them in high air , would increase the fun factor tenfolds.
<!--QuoteBegin--Mr Charisma+Oct 10 2003, 09:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr Charisma @ Oct 10 2003, 09:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From what I have hathered from playing as lerk in 2.0 compared to 1.0x. Is that the lerk is NOT designed to take on bands of marines and fly away chuckling with a few kills. It's ment to be hit, run hit again. Or support other attacking aliens, there was a reason they gave it primal scream, and umbra (with range). Think about it.
Edit: "Unbra" LOL<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk's aren't designed to take on bands of marines? Why is it I'm wiping out marines left and right on the servers as a lerk? I've been experimenting with the lerk lately and the stupid thing needs a good wack of the nerf stick. Well, maybe have its abilities rearranged or something. A "support" unit shouldn't be able to take down groups of marines on his own.
I don't see many things used on pub servers but that don't mean we should take them all out. Scream is very handy in a 3 hives vs lamed to hell base scenario.
What type of muppet would try to bite a jet packer as lerk?
What type of muppet would try to bite a jet packer as lerk? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
eh? thats what we lived for pre 2.0, we joined a server, with the intention of going lerk, for the purpose of destroying the JP rush... so my answer would be, the ones who could???
People keep reverting back to the "support" class subject, well...
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> = Support, slow moving low damage attacks, web, and bilebomb and builds.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> = Scout primarily, however USED as a light assault class
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> = Medium assault class, heavy amount of overkill in the early game
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> = Heavy assault class, unless dealing with lvl3 tech, will not die with 3 hives (and the right knowledge of course)
<!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> = Support class, fast moving, very low damage attacks, and a seemingly pointless umbra now (come on, face it, its just far to thin now, and last little more than a second, doesnt stack either)
In my opinion, bringing back bite for lerks, same as early 1.0 or same as late 1.0, will mean we see more and more lerks flying about the maps after the mid-game.
People seem to be saying remove spikes for bite... come on, are u insane? Spikes are a fun element to the Lerk, Spores are not fun, people will argue this because spores is what they see lerk for, and nothing more.
The ideal lerk (in my opinion) would be :
0 hive - Spike
1 hive - Bite - 50 damage like the olden days <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
2 hives - Umbra - 4/5 deflections!!!
3 hives - Primal Scream
HP reverted back to 60 points
Armour back to 50
The above would make the lerk still be a support and light assault class.
Just another thing, the lerk doesnt "feel" as heavy as it did before either, the flight is a bit to easy but thats to be expected i guess <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
0. Spike
1. Bite
2. Umbra
3. Old strength spore
or
0. Spike
1. Umbra
2. Bite
3. Old strength spore
The first one is a 1.0 lerk, which early on would be too agressive imo. The second would plonk the lerk firmly in the support class if you nerfed umbra even more.
I'd really like the old spores in at 3 hives as I'm fed up with 1 RT turtling. LAs didn't last very long against the old spores and this would <b>support</b> the other aliens in destroying the base.
Maybe because the lerk was a melee unit for a lot longer than it was a support unit? I mean lots of people wasted their time on mastering something that isn't even around anymore, shame huh? Guess it sucks to be them. Lerks should at least have the choice of what they want to be; gorges are support and arn't really for attacking yet they still have spit to protect themselves. Maybe we should have removed spit too?
im against lerk bite being back in. lerks in 1.0x were stronger skulks that could fly... gg WTH is that
flayra wanted the lerk to be a support character.. and thats its exactly what it is. spores + spikes for long range support, umbra for all around support, and then ther eis primal scream which allows aliens to go crazy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> adding bite back in would throw off the balance of ns
Lots of things change, people have to adapt. An old lerk in modern NS would need tweaks to all the other classes, and right now the lerk seems to fit its assault/support role very well. The gorge is largely defensive/support. Sounds fair.
So, at one hive you'd have your support class. Spores to confuse the marines and weaken them so the skulks can blow in and finish them off. And should the lerk have to defend itself, or be faced with a lone marine and no backup, he can finish him off. At two hives, youll probably have a fade or two, and full cara and full adren on the way. The marines will have better armor, weapons, and will be working on (or possibly have) jp or HA. The spikes make the perfect addition to the fade for combatting stronger marines. A higher energy cost would make the lerk have to choose his shots carefully instead of spamming away. The spores are still useful for weakening groups of marines. At hive 3 you have umbra, at which point your probably facing either JP's, HA, both, or incompetent marines. I think umbra should be pushed back to hive 3, an umbra lerk and onos or fade is damn near unstoppable. Theres really not much of a reason currently to go for 3 hives unless your facing huge HA squads.
You <i>do</i> get a choice of what you want to be; it's just that if you want melee, don't lerk. If you don't want to pay for melee, get skulk. If you want the modern equivilent of fly-by kills, get fade.
The spit analogy is bogus. I'm not advocating that lerks should be utterly helpless (and they certainly aren't without bite). The lerks have spikes and spores with which they can easily defend themselves. It's just that they aren't the lethal fly-by-biters they once were.
So, at one hive you'd have your support class. Spores to confuse the marines and weaken them so the skulks can blow in and finish them off. And should the lerk have to defend itself, or be faced with a lone marine and no backup, he can finish him off. At two hives, youll probably have a fade or two, and full cara and full adren on the way. The marines will have better armor, weapons, and will be working on (or possibly have) jp or HA. The spikes make the perfect addition to the fade for combatting stronger marines. A higher energy cost would make the lerk have to choose his shots carefully instead of spamming away. The spores are still useful for weakening groups of marines. At hive 3 you have umbra, at which point your probably facing either JP's, HA, both, or incompetent marines. I think umbra should be pushed back to hive 3, an umbra lerk and onos or fade is damn near unstoppable. Theres really not much of a reason currently to go for 3 hives unless your facing huge HA squads. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hive 3 umbra is far too late.
If aliens got all 3 hives there's no use casting umbra because you've already won <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bite,Spores,Umbra,Primal or Bite,Spikes,Umbra,Spores (better)
2-spores (damages HA when armor is below 50%)
3-old Umbra
4-Lerk Bite
primal scream is not good enough...
The only thing that needs changing is it's life expectancy, which right now is
very low given the amount of resources it costs. Increasing it's armor a notch,
would fix that.
The umbra needs to be made a little better again, 1/2 is quite low, 2/3 would
be a lot better.
Also, I would suggest that spores would work on HA, but not at full damage,
but rather 1/4 to 1/8 damage. That would "soften" the HA a little bit.
Aelius
The only thing that needs changing is it's life expectancy, which right now is
very low given the amount of resources it costs. Increasing it's armor a notch,
would fix that.
The umbra needs to be made a little better again, 1/2 is quite low, 2/3 would
be a lot better.
Also, I would suggest that spores would work on HA, but not at full damage,
but rather 1/4 to 1/8 damage. That would "soften" the HA a little bit.
Aelius <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The old 60hp 50ap lerk lived longer than the 125hp 25ap lerk does...
Umbra as it stands is pretty pointless, from a marine point of view, im never worried of going into the umbra to take out whatever is there, from a lerk point of view, why waste the adrenalin.
Heavy armour in all levels of armour has a 90% absorb of damage inflicted, spores are neglegable in effect to light armour, so against heavy armour, all it would do is nock of armour points.
im sorry but i must disagree... when anything has been affected by PS, they attack 3 times faster - lerks shoot like machine guns, onos fades and skulks bite/claw/gore like crazy meaning anything in their path will be mowed down. right now spores is very important because without it marines will be able to walk in to any hive at any point in time with shotguns and just mow through them because nothing would really be able to hurt them all at once. the AoF for spores is what allows aliens to really defend the hive at an early stage -.-
that would be the 2 minute fade that does that <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still think the lerk can be balanced as a support unit with bite and WITHOUT spores... Attacking marines from behind with bite or softening them with spikes, for example. If you lower the ridiculous 125 hp to something more reasonable and remove the speed-cap, the lerk will once again require mobility and skill, instead of just spamming spores.
Oh, well... I miss the 1.0x lerk a lot, never play lerk now, but at least you gave us the new fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe that the ideal situation would be something like Hive 1 : bite and spikes, hive 2 umbra, hive 3 spores. Let spores damage heavy armor to compensate for coming at hive #3. Give Primal Scream to the fade as his hive 3-ability (acid rocket at hive 2) and remove metabolize, as it's just regen anyway and that shouldn't be a weapon (imho).
I still think the lerk can be balanced as a support unit with bite and WITHOUT spores... Attacking marines from behind with bite or softening them with spikes, for example. If you lower the ridiculous 125 hp to something more reasonable and remove the speed-cap, the lerk will once again require mobility and skill, instead of just spamming spores.
Oh, well... I miss the 1.0x lerk a lot, never play lerk now, but at least you gave us the new fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I believe that the ideal situation would be something like Hive 1 : bite and spikes, hive 2 umbra, hive 3 spores. Let spores damage heavy armor to compensate for coming at hive #3. Give Primal Scream to the fade as his hive 3-ability (acid rocket at hive 2) and remove metabolize, as it's just regen anyway and that shouldn't be a weapon (imho). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
It has more HP yes but it lacks armor.
But seriously, you want even less health for a lerk!?
Then it will require a half pistol round instead of a whole one lol
very low given the amount of resources it costs. Increasing it's armor a notch,
would fix that.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Lerk's life and armor is truthfully fine. If you increase it, you get the 1.0X problem of them rushing in, killing a few rines and then leaving with still a lot of health. It's a pain right now just trying to kill even a newbie lerk as they are effective at retreating. Add in the vents, and you can't kill them unless you drop twenty res for a nade launcher with the sole purpose of TRYING to kill the lerk with the grenades. Since aliens start out with 25 res, the future lerk just has to kill at least two rines to get enough to lerk and get what upgrade there is if anyone bothered to lay them. The only way to kill them is rushing them with at least three marines, at least till you can get upgrades.
Then it will require a half pistol round instead of a whole one lol "
I know you're joking, it takes about a pistol clip to kill a lerk now. Yes, I want it to have less life... If you let a marine hit you with an entire clip you deserve to die. The lerk in 1.04 was about the fastest thing in any game ever, but if you hit them with a few bullets bullets, they died. (Except the level3-carapaced lerk who took 30 LMG bullets to kill, up from 15 with level 2 carapace... is that a bug or what? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ).
About the old "super skulk that flies"-argument... what the hell is a fade now? He's exactly that, a super skulk (333% hp <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) that flies, and nobody complains about that.
A problem in NS 2.0, as I see it, is that a lot of the aliens don't really require all that much skill. Both the onos and the lerk cap off fairly rapidly (a person who's played lerk for 10 hours is not that much worse than someone who has been lerk for 200 hours). With skulks you really notice the difference between a good skulk and a bad skulk, but with the lerk and onos the difference isn't that huge.
I still believe that the majority of people who voted against bite didn't play as lerk. If you had a poll about removing devour or some other hated ability, I'm sure the majority of people who would vote against it would be the guys who usually get eaten when they have HA, not the guys who go onos and eat....
When people talk about the 1.04 lerk, they make it sound like any idiot could go lerk and own 5+ marines with bite without dying. That simply wasn't the case, the people able to take on multiple LA/LMG marines at the same time had trained for a long time and died pretty frequenty. The 1.04 lerk and the 2.0 fade are very, very similar in that way... both are able to kill single marines but fall against larger groups. The difference is that the 1.04 lerk did it through speed and surprise, whereas the fade does it by having 250 hp <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->