<!--QuoteBegin--semi-psychotic+Oct 5 2003, 12:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (semi-psychotic @ Oct 5 2003, 12:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Got a question for you all. If aliens were INTENDED to have such a highlevel of teamwork then why were they given individual res pools? With individual res pools comes freedom of choice. It's got nothin' to do with teamwork. Alien players act individually. They can do all the afermentioned "teamwork" thing like attacking from 5 directions and decoys and stuff but it is not required. The thing is, you can't deny the aliens design and their purpose - individuality. There is no way people could force others into spendin' their res/currency into doing something they do_not want to do or risk being banned. It's all fine and dandy if you're a marine coz you DO require teamwork but aliens are completely different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great point. But, one problem with the argument: you only covered the base of resource-spending. Aliens SHOULD be able to spend res on whatever they want... the lifeforms are perfectly balanced so that in most games, by endgame, you have a balanced mix of aliens (by the way, compliments to Flay for that detail!). Though, aliens cannot win the game without coordinated attacks. Granted, nobody should be forced to evolve to a certain species or a certain evolutionary trait, but they all should attack as a team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't understand your point.
Okay here's the deal. Aliens are given a seperate pool for res' because they are supposed to be INDIVIDUALISTIC. Note the word. That means "LIKE individuals". That doesnt mean freedom of choice. That means necessity.
An Alien team with no chambers and a few early fades will lose unless the marines have nearly no skill, or the Fade(s) completley are godly. These are extreme situations that will rarley ever happen and are best just ignored cause they'll usually be flukes. Furthermore an Alien team with only one Hive WILL lose. No matter what you WILL lose as the marines will shortly be ocming for YOUR hive. Good Game, prepare for the next.
Now, the way Aliens were INTENDED to work IMO is as follows. Each Alien is responsible for gettin his/her own resources. Those resources are to benifit the Hive and eliminate the Marine threat. You dont get to just "save for Onos" cause its good for the team. Hell I see people saving for Onos on maps like ns_bast or ns_mineshaft, in which case even the average skulk player ends up doing more damage than the best Onos players just because of the size of tunnels/number of ladders/ect. That is not good for the team. Going Fade instead of Onos is way better.
Your Resources are to benifit the team and to make your playing enjoyable. Overall you'll have more fun winning than losing. You'll have more fun being able to have 2 diffrent chamber upgrades as fade than just that one anyways. Besides "early fades" usually get to 50 res in about 3-5 minutes. Early fades tend to be decent skulk players and can get res fairly quickly so they shouldnt mind doing that. ---- This is how NS for Aliens *should* be done in my opinion: 2-3 Aliens go Gorge and plant Movement Chambers. In the case of 2 1 stays Gorge till he has 10 res again and then plants it.
5-7 Aliens run to a Res Node and plant an RT, then skulk again.
1 Alien saves res for a Hive
(optional)0+ Aliens save res for a better creature type or OCs to defend the Hive as the team needs it.
Thats for a team of 8-12. Now the reason I say this is because its all you need from my gaming experiences. You'll get a 2nd hive fast, have lvl 3 upgrade in Movement so that when your 2nd Hive is underattack you can move there (happens in like 50% of the games) and because Skulks do more damage with Movement upgrades than Defense.
You'll have a 2nd Hive soon and you can then get Defensive Chambers. Those 5-7 player that planted RTs should have a fair ammount of res, and the 2-3 will be close behind. The person saving for Hive wont have that much, but considering there is usually one person on the Alien team that doesnt mind puttin a 2nd Hive up as long as people will save it should it be under attack that guy wont have a problem. I for one like skulks and fades, and since Im pretty good with skulks usually I can get 50 res again in no time.
Oh and the person who said 6-8 rts and the mariens already lost knows nothing (<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). j/k, its just that 6-8 rts for aliens doenst mean much. Marines can survive on 2 rts, 3 rts adn they are doing great 4 and they should win in no time. If they got 5 or more RTs then the Aliens are screwed. ----- Now, there is PLENTY of time in a game of NS for EVERYONE who did something and built something to get 100 res. If your whining about the DCs think about it. You all spent res so you shouldnt need DCs for your skulks until the 2nd hive is up when you'll be goign fade/onos.
Gorges shouldnt be near marines that will just slaughter them so no need for redemption. Plus if they are get celerity and your as fast as a skulk which has less life and can run from 2 or 3 marines.
Lerks could use DCs, yes. But with Adrenilne you can spore/spike like crazy. You just gotta be more careful about when/where you do it. Dont take unneccessary risks.
Fades and Onos need DCs. They do. But if your team did all what I suggested then they would be gettin like 60 res by the time the 2nd Hive is up. Plenty of res for 3 to go drop a few DCs in each hive then go fade. Heck, if you were gettin more than 70 res by the time the Hive got up the Mariens must have sucked much or something.
Now. Following that guideline (it isnt a MUST DO thing like some Marine Tactics, but it works 85% of the time on Pub Servers and half the people fall in love with MCs first as skulks cause celerity/silence does mroe for them than Carapace. Not for everyone, but it gets the team to pull together when needed) there are no early fades, everyone usually gets to do what ever they want and the game is over in 10-15 minutes with a 2 Hive victory most of the time. 3rd hive happens a lot but pushes on 15-20 minutes a lot but you get more toys like Acid Rocket/Xenocide/Charge. No one on the Alien team gripes about those 'fuggin res hoarders with a w' or if they do they werent paying attention or ended up doing most of the work (happens to me a few times. I plant the 3 chambers and get the 2nd hive then plant the other 3 chambers as well as defend the 2nd hive as 5 rambo lites run in; happend 4 times yesterday just about always like that).
Now. Fading to early is agreed to be good if the player who does it is good as Fade and it was needed. It isnt always needed. Early fades are needed when you got 3 RTs, the mariens have 6, and the marines are close to a 2 hive lock down. But the majority of games Ive played its more like the aleins get 2 hvies and 6-8 RTs, the Marines have 1 Hive, dual res, and 1 or 2 other RTs (2-4). The game takes 15-30 minutes and its usually fairly good and close game. Granted most of the time Aliens win, but like 40-45% of the time Marines do. Thats actually just because the server I play on only had 2 regular good comms, that get on at the same time and only at a certain time so the majority of the time the Marine have a newbie or decent commander.
Overall Fading early is usually a bad idea. Aliens have individual pools so that they can all go the creature type they want, but they still need to build stuff to support the team and if the whole team buckles down like I suggested everyone can go whatever they want after a few minutes. There are diffrent upgrades for diffrent styles of play and for diffrent creatures. (for example a Silent Skulk tends to kill more mariens in a run than say a Regeneration Skulk. Or even a Carapace skulk. BUT Silenent Fades dont usually do as much damage as Regen Fades or a Cara Fade. Since you usually shouldnt go fade early you shouldnt need a DC right away. thats my opinion, ignore the whole part on DCs if you dont agree or give it a try. SCs are omitted cause most everyone needs to plant one, or you need 2 gorges and 8 RTs to make SC REALLY worth it)
Basically early fade = bad (angry team mates, possible kick/ban, no 2nd hive for another 5-10 minutes...). Individual Res Pools = Ability for Aliens to be able to go what ever creature they want or need but with the Responsiblity to aid the team. Red Rebel = good NS Alien player who tends to ramble on when at school and trying to look busy at work as well as convey a good point in an articulate and thourough manner and who needs to learn how to spell "thourough".
I think Ive managed to confuse at LEAST 23 people so my job is done.
I think that an early fade is ALWAYS extremely helpful. Even assuming that all is going according to plan, a fade can assure that marines dont put a hitch in it (they basically nullify SG rushes in conjunction with lerks and skulks), and they are quite capable of ending the game far sooner than otherwise.
Early fades are ALWAYS good, they are capable of al the Aliens' strengths: Speed, Ability to Kill stuff, Ability to destroy stuff, and are very high on irritation factor.
I would point out that you plan involves 1 skulk for fighting for the first two minutes of the game, while everyone is going gorge. Against 8 marines, not only is that 1 skulk going to be slaughtered, but it will happen so quickly that the marines can immediately run free over any part of the map they want for several minutes.
So 2 minutes into the game, several of your just-finished RTs are sliced down and replaced with marine RTs while everyone is busy evolving back into skulks, and your great plan to have 5-2 res advantage becomes 5-2 res disadvantage. But at least you have chambers, and 1 person with a few res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> don't understand your point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, my fault for the bad wording. I agree with you on the fact that they should be able to spend their res individually (on forms and traits) but gorges should listen to the team about building structures. Also, the aliens need to attack and defend as a team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Early fades are ALWAYS good, they are capable of al the Aliens' strengths: Speed, Ability to Kill stuff, Ability to destroy stuff, and are very high on irritation factor. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Early Fades always end up saving my hide (and they REALLY annoy the marines!).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would point out that you plan involves 1 skulk for fighting for the first two minutes of the game, while everyone is going gorge. Against 8 marines, not only is that 1 skulk going to be slaughtered, but it will happen so quickly that the marines can immediately run free over any part of the map they want for several minutes.
So 2 minutes into the game, several of your just-finished RTs are sliced down and replaced with marine RTs while everyone is busy evolving back into skulks, and your great plan to have 5-2 res advantage becomes 5-2 res disadvantage. But at least you have chambers, and 1 person with a few res. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This strategy actually can turn out great, so-so, or a horrid failure, depending on what map you are playing on. In ns_nothing (am I right? It has central processing?) this strategy is a horrid failure because central processing gives the team that has it a lot of leverage because of the central location.
In ns_caged (gah, I hate these map names. Doesn't caged have Feedwater and refinery?) this strategy is great, because with a quick charge for rescources you can quickly limit where the marines can go, and choke them of resources as you roll in the dough.
All that talk about "if they were great fades" stopping marine actions.
A decent celerity skulk can do the same. Albeit he'll die more often, he'll be able to at least take down two or three marines when they're trying to relocate. When they try to build, you have a decent lerk to spore cloud to disrupt them.
When it comes down to it, decent teamplay always beats a great ball-hog. Not only does playing as a team have equal results, but it's also a lot more enjoyable for the rest of your team. Being a one-hive, movement-less skulk because you didn't hoard up res to go fade is boring stuff.
I say its fine to go fade if a few things are in order: 1: You are good enough to go fade - you had this covered completely. Holding off a full rine offensive can be described in3 words - very **** impressive. 2: There are others who are gorges who can also put up a hive. Again, this was covered if 5/7 aliens were gorges. 3: Your team doesn't DESPERATELY need those res elsewhere.
You covered all the bases - I would have been happy to be on your team when you went fade. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When it comes down to it, decent teamplay always beats a great ball-hog. Not only does playing as a team have equal results, but it's also a lot more enjoyable for the rest of your team. Being a one-hive, movement-less skulk because you didn't hoard up res to go fade is boring stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. The very essence of Natural-selection lies in this quote. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Overall, to summarize the thread, I think that 1 early fade is almost always a good idea, provided 5 other people drop RC's and one saves/skulks for 2nd hive.
THe important thing is for everyone to tell the team what they are doing. If you all dont communicate what you are planning to do, you will usually lose. This is why marines win 9 out of 10 games at the hamptons. The marines ALWAYS work together, and the aliens only do sometimes.
Comments
If aliens were INTENDED to have such a highlevel of teamwork then why were they given individual res pools?
With individual res pools comes freedom of choice. It's got nothin' to do with teamwork. Alien players act individually. They can do all the afermentioned "teamwork" thing like attacking from 5 directions and decoys and stuff but it is not required.
The thing is, you can't deny the aliens design and their purpose - individuality. There is no way people could force others into spendin' their res/currency into doing something they do_not want to do or risk being banned.
It's all fine and dandy if you're a marine coz you DO require teamwork but aliens are completely different. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Great point. But, one problem with the argument: you only covered the base of resource-spending. Aliens SHOULD be able to spend res on whatever they want... the lifeforms are perfectly balanced so that in most games, by endgame, you have a balanced mix of aliens (by the way, compliments to Flay for that detail!). Though, aliens cannot win the game without coordinated attacks. Granted, nobody should be forced to evolve to a certain species or a certain evolutionary trait, but they all should attack as a team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't understand your point.
An Alien team with no chambers and a few early fades will lose unless the marines have nearly no skill, or the Fade(s) completley are godly. These are extreme situations that will rarley ever happen and are best just ignored cause they'll usually be flukes. Furthermore an Alien team with only one Hive WILL lose. No matter what you WILL lose as the marines will shortly be ocming for YOUR hive. Good Game, prepare for the next.
Now, the way Aliens were INTENDED to work IMO is as follows. Each Alien is responsible for gettin his/her own resources. Those resources are to benifit the Hive and eliminate the Marine threat. You dont get to just "save for Onos" cause its good for the team. Hell I see people saving for Onos on maps like ns_bast or ns_mineshaft, in which case even the average skulk player ends up doing more damage than the best Onos players just because of the size of tunnels/number of ladders/ect. That is not good for the team. Going Fade instead of Onos is way better.
Your Resources are to benifit the team and to make your playing enjoyable. Overall you'll have more fun winning than losing. You'll have more fun being able to have 2 diffrent chamber upgrades as fade than just that one anyways. Besides "early fades" usually get to 50 res in about 3-5 minutes. Early fades tend to be decent skulk players and can get res fairly quickly so they shouldnt mind doing that.
----
This is how NS for Aliens *should* be done in my opinion:
2-3 Aliens go Gorge and plant Movement Chambers. In the case of 2 1 stays Gorge till he has 10 res again and then plants it.
5-7 Aliens run to a Res Node and plant an RT, then skulk again.
1 Alien saves res for a Hive
(optional)0+ Aliens save res for a better creature type or OCs to defend the Hive as the team needs it.
Thats for a team of 8-12. Now the reason I say this is because its all you need from my gaming experiences. You'll get a 2nd hive fast, have lvl 3 upgrade in Movement so that when your 2nd Hive is underattack you can move there (happens in like 50% of the games) and because Skulks do more damage with Movement upgrades than Defense.
You'll have a 2nd Hive soon and you can then get Defensive Chambers. Those 5-7 player that planted RTs should have a fair ammount of res, and the 2-3 will be close behind. The person saving for Hive wont have that much, but considering there is usually one person on the Alien team that doesnt mind puttin a 2nd Hive up as long as people will save it should it be under attack that guy wont have a problem. I for one like skulks and fades, and since Im pretty good with skulks usually I can get 50 res again in no time.
Oh and the person who said 6-8 rts and the mariens already lost knows nothing (<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). j/k, its just that 6-8 rts for aliens doenst mean much. Marines can survive on 2 rts, 3 rts adn they are doing great 4 and they should win in no time. If they got 5 or more RTs then the Aliens are screwed.
-----
Now, there is PLENTY of time in a game of NS for EVERYONE who did something and built something to get 100 res. If your whining about the DCs think about it. You all spent res so you shouldnt need DCs for your skulks until the 2nd hive is up when you'll be goign fade/onos.
Gorges shouldnt be near marines that will just slaughter them so no need for redemption. Plus if they are get celerity and your as fast as a skulk which has less life and can run from 2 or 3 marines.
Lerks could use DCs, yes. But with Adrenilne you can spore/spike like crazy. You just gotta be more careful about when/where you do it. Dont take unneccessary risks.
Fades and Onos need DCs. They do. But if your team did all what I suggested then they would be gettin like 60 res by the time the 2nd Hive is up. Plenty of res for 3 to go drop a few DCs in each hive then go fade. Heck, if you were gettin more than 70 res by the time the Hive got up the Mariens must have sucked much or something.
Now. Following that guideline (it isnt a MUST DO thing like some Marine Tactics, but it works 85% of the time on Pub Servers and half the people fall in love with MCs first as skulks cause celerity/silence does mroe for them than Carapace. Not for everyone, but it gets the team to pull together when needed) there are no early fades, everyone usually gets to do what ever they want and the game is over in 10-15 minutes with a 2 Hive victory most of the time. 3rd hive happens a lot but pushes on 15-20 minutes a lot but you get more toys like Acid Rocket/Xenocide/Charge. No one on the Alien team gripes about those 'fuggin res hoarders with a w' or if they do they werent paying attention or ended up doing most of the work (happens to me a few times. I plant the 3 chambers and get the 2nd hive then plant the other 3 chambers as well as defend the 2nd hive as 5 rambo lites run in; happend 4 times yesterday just about always like that).
Now. Fading to early is agreed to be good if the player who does it is good as Fade and it was needed. It isnt always needed. Early fades are needed when you got 3 RTs, the mariens have 6, and the marines are close to a 2 hive lock down. But the majority of games Ive played its more like the aleins get 2 hvies and 6-8 RTs, the Marines have 1 Hive, dual res, and 1 or 2 other RTs (2-4). The game takes 15-30 minutes and its usually fairly good and close game. Granted most of the time Aliens win, but like 40-45% of the time Marines do. Thats actually just because the server I play on only had 2 regular good comms, that get on at the same time and only at a certain time so the majority of the time the Marine have a newbie or decent commander.
Overall Fading early is usually a bad idea. Aliens have individual pools so that they can all go the creature type they want, but they still need to build stuff to support the team and if the whole team buckles down like I suggested everyone can go whatever they want after a few minutes. There are diffrent upgrades for diffrent styles of play and for diffrent creatures.
(for example a Silent Skulk tends to kill more mariens in a run than say a Regeneration Skulk. Or even a Carapace skulk. BUT Silenent Fades dont usually do as much damage as Regen Fades or a Cara Fade. Since you usually shouldnt go fade early you shouldnt need a DC right away. thats my opinion, ignore the whole part on DCs if you dont agree or give it a try. SCs are omitted cause most everyone needs to plant one, or you need 2 gorges and 8 RTs to make SC REALLY worth it)
Basically early fade = bad (angry team mates, possible kick/ban, no 2nd hive for another 5-10 minutes...).
Individual Res Pools = Ability for Aliens to be able to go what ever creature they want or need but with the Responsiblity to aid the team.
Red Rebel = good NS Alien player who tends to ramble on when at school and trying to look busy at work as well as convey a good point in an articulate and thourough manner and who needs to learn how to spell "thourough".
I think Ive managed to confuse at LEAST 23 people so my job is done.
-Red
Early fades are ALWAYS good, they are capable of al the Aliens' strengths: Speed, Ability to Kill stuff, Ability to destroy stuff, and are very high on irritation factor.
So 2 minutes into the game, several of your just-finished RTs are sliced down and replaced with marine RTs while everyone is busy evolving back into skulks, and your great plan to have 5-2 res advantage becomes 5-2 res disadvantage. But at least you have chambers, and 1 person with a few res.
Sorry, my fault for the bad wording. I agree with you on the fact that they should be able to spend their res individually (on forms and traits) but gorges should listen to the team about building structures. Also, the aliens need to attack and defend as a team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Early fades are ALWAYS good, they are capable of al the Aliens' strengths: Speed, Ability to Kill stuff, Ability to destroy stuff, and are very high on irritation factor. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Early Fades always end up saving my hide (and they REALLY annoy the marines!).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would point out that you plan involves 1 skulk for fighting for the first two minutes of the game, while everyone is going gorge. Against 8 marines, not only is that 1 skulk going to be slaughtered, but it will happen so quickly that the marines can immediately run free over any part of the map they want for several minutes.
So 2 minutes into the game, several of your just-finished RTs are sliced down and replaced with marine RTs while everyone is busy evolving back into skulks, and your great plan to have 5-2 res advantage becomes 5-2 res disadvantage. But at least you have chambers, and 1 person with a few res. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This strategy actually can turn out great, so-so, or a horrid failure, depending on what map you are playing on. In ns_nothing (am I right? It has central processing?) this strategy is a horrid failure because central processing gives the team that has it a lot of leverage because of the central location.
In ns_caged (gah, I hate these map names. Doesn't caged have Feedwater and refinery?) this strategy is great, because with a quick charge for rescources you can quickly limit where the marines can go, and choke them of resources as you roll in the dough.
A decent celerity skulk can do the same. Albeit he'll die more often, he'll be able to at least take down two or three marines when they're trying to relocate. When they try to build, you have a decent lerk to spore cloud to disrupt them.
When it comes down to it, decent teamplay always beats a great ball-hog. Not only does playing as a team have equal results, but it's also a lot more enjoyable for the rest of your team. Being a one-hive, movement-less skulk because you didn't hoard up res to go fade is boring stuff.
1: You are good enough to go fade - you had this covered completely. Holding off a full rine offensive can be described in3 words - very **** impressive.
2: There are others who are gorges who can also put up a hive. Again, this was covered if 5/7 aliens were gorges.
3: Your team doesn't DESPERATELY need those res elsewhere.
You covered all the bases - I would have been happy to be on your team when you went fade. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes. The very essence of Natural-selection lies in this quote. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
4) You've given me attention/a cookie/a cuddle (action depends on who you are =3 )
THe important thing is for everyone to tell the team what they are doing. If you all dont communicate what you are planning to do, you will usually lose. This is why marines win 9 out of 10 games at the hamptons. The marines ALWAYS work together, and the aliens only do sometimes.