<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk doesn't have to be nerfed into a flying gorge just to be a support unit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wwere not saying make it into a heal spraying flying gorge buddy, at hive one I and others would rather use umbra to support our team at a 2 hive lockdown then use spores which are usless agaisnt HA attacks, at least with umbra u can umbra the hive to buy time for ur team, u could umbra the onos devouring the HA's in groups of 3-4 with shotguns and HMG's, overall umbra would make the lerk a support class and at the same time HELP the aliens out by umbraing instead of sporing which as somebody said does weaken the LA's but simply at the same time steals kills from skulks and such
<!--QuoteBegin--Frahg+Sep 3 2003, 10:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frahg @ Sep 3 2003, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there something wrong with supporting the goals of a team? Not all support units have to be medics. Just because the lerk doesn't give back to the team the way a gorge does doesn't mean he's not a support class. His job is to do supportive things like weaken strong encampments (by long range sniping of turrets and sporing) and kill at a distance. The lerk is a support unit the way artillery or a sniper are support units.
There's nothing wrong with that and it's a perfectly acceptable use of the term "support unit." The lerk doesn't have to be nerfed into a flying gorge just to be a support unit.
--Frahg <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funnily I'm still only hearing nerf from those that are protecting the spore as such a vital support weapon for the team... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The lerk isn't getting nerfed at all, not unless you consider losing the ability to sit around one spot for roughly the first 5-10 minutes of a game sporing constantly without once giving a thought for your team, yet getting the abiliy to actually help your team against HA if you only have one hive, as being a nerf <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
On a public I don't care much for players that aren't playing for the team, that are making the game one sided, or people that don't support me when I, or others with me, need it. The lerk that most people play in NS fills these three traits beautifully. In a clan match I'd imagine players would simply adapt and kick **** just as much.
Yes, I find it funny that those that call these suggestions "nerfs" are ones that probably would have to relearn how to use a lerk if they were implimented, because they are using them in the way that I'm questioning.
K, As of now, Lerks do not take much skill to use. You spore from a disance, run away, repeat. I'll admit, a good lerk player, can get kills at a faster rate, don't get me wrong.
All the other aliens need skilled players to get kills. A good skulk can bite people much better then a poor skulk. Fade is probably the most skill needed class in 2.0. And onos, well onos with redemption, is an unstoppable alien, but then of course it doesn't get kills. Onos with regen/celerity, does get kills and does take a skilled person to use.
Thats my arguement, not that they need to fill a supportive role, but they are just too easy to use.
I've read most the posts in this thread and have agreed with Lee in all of his posts, expect his over stress on lerks being a support class. I'm not going to waste time restating what he has said though. I do agree that a lerk shouln't be the killing machine it currently is in 2.0, but this whole, it needs to fill a support role is dumb, and its risen many pointless arguements especially about the gorge.
I will quickly state what the current idea is from lee, considering I believe it is a great one and unless you have time, you probably havent read all his posts.
Move umbra to hive 1 Move primal to hive 2 Move spore to hive 3
I would agree with this. But lee also mentioned that maybe move spore to hive 2. I would completly disagree, this would not solve a thing. Hive 2 is always up fast anyway, and most effective lerks must use a combination of adren/regen, which of course is only acheivable at 2 hives.
In response to a couple of other comments
I believe the relocating in 2.0 is almost crucial with an average rine team. to control res due to the fact that outposts at, lets say doubleres, are easily downable by an early game onos. Don't get me wrong, a good rine team can easily stay at base, then go out res killing. I see that as a very effective strat and when I comm, I use that if I believe the rine team is good enough to handle it.
Thats all
P.S. I would just have to say, I hope you fellas writing the long posts are in debate at your school, You would be great at it.
<!--QuoteBegin--CalDreaminGilp+Sep 4 2003, 07:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CalDreaminGilp @ Sep 4 2003, 07:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats my arguement, not that they need to fill a supportive role, but they are just too easy to use.
I've read most the posts in this thread and have agreed with Lee in all of his posts, expect his over stress on lerks being a support class. I'm not going to waste time restating what he has said though. I do agree that a lerk shouln't be the killing machine it currently is in 2.0, but this whole, it needs to fill a support role is dumb, and its risen many pointless arguements especially about the gorge.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks, I am beginning to just pass the whole "lerks are for support until the end game" off as merely a matter of taste now, it's evident everyone has their own ideas on what lerks should or should not be...the only people fatally wrong now, imo, are those that reckon that they should be these big hitters from afar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would agree with this. But lee also mentioned that maybe move spore to hive 2. I would completly disagree, this would not solve a thing. Hive 2 is always up fast anyway, and most effective lerks must use a combination of adren/regen, which of course is only acheivable at 2 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be perfectly honest, putting spore at hive two was the early stage of the final idea you've sumarised above...I too came to the thinking that spore at hive two would only cause a delay of what we have now, and a weaker umbra to go with it, which doesn't at all help the lerks and WOULD be a nerf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. I would just have to say, I hope you fellas writing the long posts are in debate at your school, You would be great at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm known on various forums I've been on, and in my circle of friends as being the one that is opinionated and someone you probably don't want to get into a debate with unless you have the time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyway, I'm at uni now so all this disecting and discussing will go down well with any coursework I get this year. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> if NS doesn't screw it up <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CalDreaminGilp+Sep 4 2003, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CalDreaminGilp @ Sep 4 2003, 01:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Move umbra to hive 1 Move primal to hive 2 Move spore to hive 3 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As someone who nearly always plays aliens, I'd love that change. Though then spores might have to do some damage to HA again, considering it would be a late-game weapon.
Primal seems underused now, in fact I only recall two games where I saw someone else use it. I use it often when I'm a lerk, and there's a group of onos that needs support. It's the ultimate base crusher (especially when you add a second lerk to umbra). Also effective when supporting fades, gorges, and even other lerks and skulks. This would make the aliens a lot stronger, provided the aliens play like a team.
"The difference here is that the gorge at hive one has the ability to do its support thing, bad player or not a lerk does not. Also, when the game has gone on for ages and the marines have fought on to get you back to one hive, the gorge is still able to help..again, bad player or not, the lerk can't...probably even less than at the game start."
Healing noone and building pointless, out of the way OCs that neither kill nor deter is IMHO far worse than pinning marines down singlehanded. If the game has gone for ages, then any kill hungry lerk is forced to switch class, usually to onos, leaving only those who dont know how to use a lerk. If they haven't figured out spores don't harm HA then they'll be useless as ANY class.
"why their attack isn't even guerilla like."
It is, though. Spore and run. At hive one its the only guerilla tactic aliens have. Hit and run skulks need healing of some sort. They have to get close and thus by necessity will take 2-3 hits. Gorges aren't guerilla fighters at hive 1. Fades can do a close up version using blink, but its more risky than a lerk. The lerk is a perfect terrorist unit earlygame.
"In 2.0 however (and so probably quite likely in 2.01) the marines can be far too easily waylaid by lerks...nay not plural, singular...A lerk and have it costing them the game."
Mm, but if you split the squad you've a better chance of getting to a location - and if you react to the lerk you can cobble up a new plan. If you send your entire marine team to dbl res (most predictable move in the book) and get killed by a lerk because you.... keep.... rushing.... then to be honest its only what marines deserve. Sadly this is the case in most games. Its a marine based problem - comms ignoring their troops, troops ignoring comms, people insisting they keep rushing the waypoint instead of saying "we can't nail the lerk" and going for another route.
However that is more an issue to do with marines having too much reliance on needing to cap 4 or 5 res points in a map...so I'm not goign to go into lerks involvement here.
"And on the flipside I don't think it's entirely fair that marines can be pinned down so very freely, and should suffer because of lerks being fraghunters."
I dunno, to me that sounds like a case of "people keep putting their head in ovens, so we'll outlaw ovens." If foolish marines (not clever ones who are being held up, we're talking standard pub chimps) keep rushing a lerk over and over, a lerk who they know is in a vent and they cant even shoot.... who do we punish? Even "good" lerk players would sit in the vent and spore the marines - it hampers their mobility, which is excellent team support.
"the trade off here is that I think having primal scream and umbra at your disposal would also help take out those fortified lock downs easier as a team than spore and umbra, yet harder as a bunch of individuals than spore and umbra."
Assuming good intentioned lerk players... which moves all the fraghunters to the other, trickier classes. End result? Team players *have* to go lerk and gorge, because noone else will.
I'll give you a parallel. The gorge is *the* builder. How many totally new players can make effective use of a gorge? How many players will go gorge and put a hive up instead of whining for 3 DCs so they can go onos? Not many, and they'd be ranked as the better teamplayers. I'm almost a permagorge now because NOONE else will do it. If the lerk is given the same role (teamplayers only) then all the decent players end up having to go lerk and gorge, while the former lerk players go "well I want teh killz and pweenz, so I'm saving for Pwnoz". Kharaa team crippled because the good players are forced to take the build/support role.
I concede its conjecture, but its conjecture based on observation. Lerks are good for pointing rambos at and saying "look, busy yourself with sporing things". They don't get in the way of other people, and at endgame the gorge player gets to switch to lerk and use Scream. Thats how my games go on the more team based servers, and its much more enjoyable.
"to build up a adequette base (even hiding from spore while the TF upgrades), you need to be in the spore cloud for more than the 30-35 seconds it'd take to kill you twice over just on that one attack."
Yep, which leads back to my quoted point about marines not designed for rushing hives and sieging. The long build times should clue comms in on the fact that they're not meant for use ahead of the front lines. Both the build time and the lerk effect should say to comms "Hey, if I want to expand, I'd best do it quickly in safe areas, rather than rush a mile from base and expect to build a base right outside the hive."
Relocation - Definitely something for another thread, we've overstretched here as is, hehe.
"which you seem to have agreed with."
Provisionally in places, yes.
Caged -
"turrets (unless they are, as you say, in the main corridor..something else that rarely happens)"
Indeed.... and brings me back to the marine intelligence issue. If the comm can't spot these gaps then really its his fault. If marines rush a hive and take it because we've no OC/MC or defenders, then I blame the team effort (not blowing my own trumpet but I'm a good gorge and only build when I can defend what I build)..... If marines have their base piledrived by any class of alien, its a base defence issue and that sits with the comm.
firing a single round at him every time he pops around to spore...especially with regen. It certainly wouldn't put him so far back the marines could rush him imo.
Giorge OC / Lerk Gas
"The difference is one is able to be countered, the other realy isn't, not at the stages we are talking about."
Not really.... Selfish gorge and his out of the way OCs don't need to be countered, just avoided. Ditto the selfish lerk.
"a bad gorge (in alien terms) is something that is much easier to replace"
A bad gorge is harder to spot, unless you find his massive WoL in some hopeless location... or an OC on top of an RT hole. When you TAB up the teams, you see X gorges, and presume they're doing a good job. You can't check the minimap because their buildings dont show unless you see them.
For lerks, you can see their kills, and you can see their outline and location on the map. Much easier to "case". You can spot him, and thus know that a better lerk is needed. Certainly at earlygame, a bad lerk can do anything he likes, and as long as it involves shooting marines, he's doing his job. Not to the best, but doing it. A bad gorge earlygame can cripple the team much more effectively. No res nodes, dropping unwanted chambers, laming up pointless locations.
"a lone gorge being an idiot with his chambers doesn't do such a thing, just limits his usefulness to one room."
If he picks a room that noone will enter or pass, then he has no usefulness at all. I'm not talking building deterrent OCs, I mean building OCs where you couldn't get killed by them if you tried.
So thats a stack of earlygame res blown, and the bad gorge will STAY gorge, still doing hopeless things, and someone (usually a better player) will have to give up the role he's good at in order to cover for the gorge. Covering for a lerk is much cheaper, and far more temporary than covering for a demented gorge.
"the end game is where the gorge runs in, plops a couple of OC's to draw fire (not building them, just putting them down)"
No, I mean truly hopeless gorges building OCs in hive, faaaaaaaaaaar from the endgame. Res down the plughole. And when you teamsay, he'll say he's building. You won't know what until you walk past him. You've spent 50-100 res on a creature only to find you have zero support because the gorge blew his res on 9 sensory chambers at the third hive. Your endgame rush is stalled until you can cough up enough res to go to gorge and build chambers. With a lerk, you know where he is, you can see what he's doing. Far less damage to the team, and easier to replace in terms of res.
and webbing everywhere so that the aliens have lots of helpless marines. Web is very much (as you have sort of suggested) quite an offensive as well as defensive tool...all third hive abilities should be geared towards quickening the end game like this.
"Too great, and as such the marine game pays for it."
Only if you keep rushing this one lerk over and over.
"having spores at a first hive is illogical on just as many levels as it's logical."
Spores useless at third hive, and if you give them to any other class it'll negatively affect their use. Sporing skulks? Sporing Fade? Sporing gorge? Sporing Onos? Sporing gorge wouldnt be as bad (no mobility tbh) but then he'll just sit at his OC nest chuckling... and it'll discourage him from building.
"overall it nerfs the lerk 0%."
Erm... if it nerfs them at first hive then it'll nerf them overall, imho. To an extent.
"Assuming umbra doesn't do its job and the alien team doesn't work as a team...yes, sieging will be remarkably easy."
Exactly. Who's going to take the umbra role? Its hard enough getting people to gorge some OCs up near hive, let alone ask them to drop it themselves. "Saving for onos, saving for onos" - So all the teamplayers have to take on the burden of another support role. Sure, we don't "have" to, but then we don't have to nerf the lerk either <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"people wonder why marines have it tough?"
IMHO I stopped wondering when I saw a Comm put his two IPs and armory beside satcom vent.... while I bbed them as gorge and a teammate spored them, hehehhe.
"He wouldn't be useless, as long as his team are there."
Which no other class has to deal with. Yes I love teamwork but no the game shouldn't be tilted so that people are forced into it just because they have chosen a certain class.
"I don't think anyone can say such a thing... Lerks right now either spore to help or don't...if they don't skulk rushes happen, if they do, then skulk rushes may still happen."
But if you want to break a turret farm, you'll have to Umbra constantly, and to do so that means adrenaline. Spores break a turret farm before its built, meaning less need for adrenaline. Currently lerks at hive one only need adren if they're going for spore spammage of a base. Since marines usually lockdown one hive, that guarantees you'll face a siege early on in the game, and thus *need* mc first. While I like MC first, I don't like to be forced into my choices by the game.
QUOTE Its a necessary evil, and balanced classwise with the fact the late game HA marines can laugh in the face of lerks, while every other class can do at least some damage.
"An overly effective ability at hive one that hopes to kill the marines game so they don't get to expand to get HA, or else they are useless when the HA's do come (assuming the HA's are dominating through the hives)."
Makes perfect sense. The marines are meant to work for their res, because well funded marines are hard marines to kill. Thats why every kharaa can cap a res - earlygame res domination. The rines are meant to take a few well held rts before crushing the kharaa. Lerks stop the expansion dead. Skulks can't stop expansion, gorges can't afford the res for OC walls that early (and to be honest WoLs aren't effective at stopping expansion) and fades/onos don't appear early enough. Solution? Lerk. To counter this (basic) strength, they're less offensive endgame. Much like gorges, who have the great strength of building, but (basic) are rather poor offensively.
To move the spore to a middly move only means that ALL early moves would need to be improved to counter the loss of spore. Earlygame, imho, nothing compares to spore in terms of *area denial*. All classes lose their strength to the Lerk..... and at endgame that strength goes back to the other classes. Spore compensates for the limited uses of all other early abilities. Remove spore, and these abilities would need to be improved to retain the balance.
Or we're back to the unstoppable siege rush scenario.
"hive one and basic ability are where things need to be if they're always essential."
IMHO hive one is where early game weapons should be. While I agree in part that at a one hive endgame the lerk is effectively useless.... I would also have to point out that in a one hive endgame, its an alien loss. And thats regardless of what a lerk is doing.
"I think that education is something that shouldn't be needed when a few alterations means that the lerk need not be educated at all."
I disagree totally - I don't think any game/class/weapon should be "altered" so that players are FORCED into things. Especially when the argument is limited to some people not being team players. IMHO thats what you accept when you play online - some people work with the team, some wont. Changing the lerk to force these bad players to use it better will have the effect of forcing them to another class they can abuse.... or hoarding their res entirely. And while the game becomes more and more formulaic (so people are using their classes the "right" way) it becomes more and more dull for the long term players.
Umbra and Spikes
A flying version of acid spit and healspray, imho. Only without the building. And at least the gorge gets bilebomb at hive two... the lerk has to look forward to another support option. Spores at hive two? Virtually no different from spores at hive one, but at the same time it just makes the lerk a flying gorge who can't build.
"I can't see the loss of spores as so detrimental to the early game for aliens. If it IS such a loss, however, I think that says a lot about spore and how stupidly overpowered it is."
It is overpowered, if you charge into it. Its like a portable temporary minefield. A single skulk couldn't do half the job a single lerk can. The lerk keeps marines out of an area, whereas skulks need to be in teams and have to actually get close.
I see a balance of "imbalances". The lerk has the best area denial weapon in the game.... but is physically weak. Other classes can't deny area for that price, but are physically tougher. Earlygame his weapons are potent, lategame they're not - every other class has a much more even spread.
Some would say thats an imbalance, but I see the lerk as living artillery, or mortar unit. Terrifying if approached incorrectly, useless when confronted on the opponent's terms.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The lerk keeps marines out of an area<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this was mosty likely to be intended by the devs, but people selfishly took the idea to spore spam marine bases non stop and then going to hide (regen) in a vent where the average start marine cant get into. so the lerk goes from a "support" class to a deadly whorish class. i assume its the players mabye, not the way the lerk was implimented
<!--QuoteBegin--Geronimo+Sep 4 2003, 07:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geronimo @ Sep 4 2003, 07:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have always wondered how you are supposed to kill a lerk if your not going to rush it... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Set your sights on its hiding spot, wait for it to poke its head out, and surprise it with a pistol clip to the head.
sorry samwise, but your wrong, seeing how the head isnt part of the hitbox so ud be shooting through the head if it was sideways AND theres no HS's and such so it wouldnt really matter, i dont think even u could put 10 pistol shots into a lerk that starts flying away sporing you
THe only ways I can think of to kill a lerk sporing a base are:
- 2-3 marine rushes: The marines rush for the Lerk. This one spores them and try to spike the first one to death, thus allowing the buddies of the fallen marine (he will usually die from the combined effects of Spike+spores) to close the distance and shotgun him. This only works for hungry-for-kills lonely Lerks, as most will usually prefer to fly away as soon as they see that there's more than 1-2 marines coming for them; and because teamworking lerks may have spored you in the intention of leading you into an ambush (skulks or anything else that may way for you to get you slain).
- a marine "false" attempt at rush, plus one marine hiding in a spot, in order to appear behind the lerk next time he shows up at his favorite spore-point. This proves to be particularly efficient, assuming the lerk doesn't have Scent of Fear (otherwise he may spot you while you are hiding).
<!--QuoteBegin--JeeR+Sep 5 2003, 09:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JeeR @ Sep 5 2003, 09:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - a marine "false" attempt at rush, plus one marine hiding in a spot, in order to appear behind the lerk next time he shows up at his favorite spore-point. This proves to be particularly efficient, assuming the lerk doesn't have Scent of Fear (otherwise he may spot you while you are hiding). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This tactic is pretty much the only one that works almost 100% of the time, although thats mainly because (at least here in the uk) no one puts sensory down first. If sensory was more widely used as a chamber, those lerks would be much much harder to kill, as this tactic would fly out the wnidow.
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Sep 5 2003, 12:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 5 2003, 12:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Healing noone and building pointless, out of the way OCs that neither kill nor deter is IMHO far worse than pinning marines down singlehanded.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That scenario is very rare on any decent server, even the ones where new players come on, they still learn they have to heal people quite fast, even if their building is hap-hazard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is, though. Spore and run. At hive one its the only guerilla tactic aliens have. <snip> The lerk is a perfect terrorist unit earlygame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hardly ever spore and run. It's spore and take cover for a second then spore some more. It's a sustained and prolonged attack, not a guerilla one. It is indeed a terrorist unit, but not for its guerilla attack, but merely for it's constant presence for which it is largely out of sight.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you send your entire marine team to dbl res (most predictable move in the book) and get killed by a lerk because you.... keep.... rushing.... then to be honest its only what marines deserve.
However that is more an issue to do with marines having too much reliance on needing to cap 4 or 5 res points in a map...so I'm not goign to go into lerks involvement here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats pretty much my thoughts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If foolish marines (not clever ones who are being held up, we're talking standard pub chimps) keep rushing a lerk over and over, a lerk who they know is in a vent and they cant even shoot.... who do we punish? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a case of punishment. The marines shouldn't be doing what they're doing and the lerks shouldn't be able to do what they're doing.
We could mass educate marines, taking time and taking a lot of effort...but at the end of the day they'd still be effected by lerks and spores even with that greater knowledge.
On the other hand we can make some changes to the lerks, to change his role and, in the process help the marines stop with their futile rushes regardless of lengthy education, and also on the very much plus side, give the marines a little more scope for actually getting out and getting res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Assuming good intentioned lerk players... which moves all the fraghunters to the other, trickier classes. End result? Team players *have* to go lerk and gorge, because noone else will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that is a bad thing? Currently the real team players either go gorge or save res for onos (after contributing to res building etc) while directing the team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll give you a parallel. The gorge is *the* builder. How many totally new players can make effective use of a gorge? How many players will go gorge and put a hive up instead of whining for 3 DCs so they can go onos? Not many, and they'd be ranked as the better teamplayers. I'm almost a permagorge now because NOONE else will do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experiance it's not that hard...the places I play have enough experianced people that unless it's something like 4am in the morning, there are always at least two people on the side that know what they're doing as gorge besides me. As for the new players, they need to learn, and they do this by watching the real gorge players do what they do...and they learn that it is the effective way to use them.
People new to the game looking at lerks, they just see people sporing and spiking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the lerk is given the same role (teamplayers only) then all the decent players end up having to go lerk and gorge, while the former lerk players go "well I want teh killz and pweenz, so I'm saving for Pwnoz". Kharaa team crippled because the good players are forced to take the build/support role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the short term yes, but much like the gorge, anyone that is new to the game that isn't straight out from CS, or anyone that is simply a good player thats new to the game...they'll see what the gorge AND lerk can do. In the long term more people will learnt he teamplay aspects of the lerk and gorge, giving a broader range of players on the publics that can play the support role aliens, and (given time) kill effectively as skulks/onos as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Both the build time and the lerk effect should say to comms "Hey, if I want to expand, I'd best do it quickly in safe areas, rather than rush a mile from base and expect to build a base right outside the hive."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble with this is intrinsically linked with 2.0 and the beta's however, as the lerk is the over-riding factor in such matters. What use is it to set up a siege point outside an innactive area? Very little considering the amount of res a commander has at his disposal. If you're going to siege, you're going to need teamwork, a bit of res saved, and perseverance.
Now, that tactic is pretty much shot to **** in 2.0+ unless the aliens are clueless to their environment and whats happening (sometimes happens, but less times than it doesn't.)
So whats left for the marines? From all my playing I know that base building is pretty much useless, and I almost always leave phase technology unresearched and unbuilt until I know the game *could* be in the bag. The only two tactics I've seen work are 1) restrict alien res and go straight for the first hive (only works against really bad aliens), and 2) get 3 or 4 res points, defend them for ten minutes...tech up as fast as you can, then HA train.
Infact, the only games that I see marines winning that are longer than 15 minutes (I see almost none less than that) are games where the marines have somehow been able to get enough res to have a HA train on the move, and haven't dawdled.
This is an IMMENSE teamwork effort, it requires excellent communication and constant vigilance on your res points throughout the game...and as such also only works against average or worse alien teams.
Yet it's the only tactic that works, thanks on no small part to how lerks perform against base building...by itself.
If an alien team denies the marines a base as part of teamwork, I think fairplayed to them. However I really find it kind of **** as an alien that some guy can say (when he's a lerk) "there's someone building", and from the other end of the map a few skulks can turn up at this building hive...and there's no-one there, they've all been dying, the only task the skulks have is to take out the meager defences that have been put up in the time that they can.
Now you can have the view that this is the marines fault, but personally I think marines are too limited strategically anyway to have such an overpowering counter for a large portion of the game towards base building too. I don't see it as the marines fault that lerks are present in the game to work against the marines strategies so well...and is it any surprise in this case that the only strategy that really works (on publics we're talking) is HA trains, something lerks can't deal with in their present form.
This is one of the reasons why I'm calling for the change. Lerks overpower marines in expansion and base building, yet can do little against HA trains. For game balance I can see some issues being solved with the changes (hopefully), by letting marines a little more freedom, and just enough fear as HA that lerks with two hives could help out those skulk rushes against them.
No HA train should completely fail to a skulk/lerk rush anyway, not if the HA trainis a good team in itself...but then a good set of basic marines shouldn't be able to deal with three or four onoses rushing them either should they? The parallel is that if the comm hands out a few shotguns and HMG's, there is a chance those 4 onos players could be taken down...if they're not entirely good at working together in the rush...and similarly the lerk giving umbra and primal scream should be able to give a chance at taking down that HA train...but of course only if the HA train is not working together.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not really.... Selfish gorge and his out of the way OCs don't need to be countered, just avoided. Ditto the selfish lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although the former rarely happens (in my experiance) and the latter in ever-present. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A bad gorge earlygame can cripple the team much more effectively. No res nodes, dropping unwanted chambers, laming up pointless locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gorge thing is going slightly off-topic now...but I don't agree with this. I'd agree if it was 1.04, but this is 2.0. Play on any server where there is a base of regular players..say always at least 6 includng yourself (which is pretty much what it is where I play)...and you can always call on them to gorge if things specifically need building. Otherwise your res is yours to spend, and outside of Res Towers, Defence for those towers, Hive buildign and hive defence...there is very little else that *needs* building, and almost all of those can be done by a single gorge. Again though, if res is short, you can usually rely on a skulk to change and do his part.
I've never seen a bad gorge "cripple" a team unless it was to build sensory when the team didn't want sensory (and so they all gave up)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If he picks a room that noone will enter or pass, then he has no usefulness at all. I'm not talking building deterrent OCs, I mean building OCs where you couldn't get killed by them if you tried.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The parallel to that would be a lerk that spores and empty room, or umbra's a random coridoor...not a lerk that spores key points of marine dominance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Covering for a lerk is much cheaper, and far more temporary than covering for a demented gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With a lerk, you know where he is, you can see what he's doing. Far less damage to the team, and easier to replace in terms of res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However the gorge in your example almost never happens and almost never needs to be covered, the lerk however happens all the time. The lerk in the early game is more like the onos in the late game that rushes a base with regen and gets killed in his first go, not to the gorge that hardly ever exists on server.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Too great, and as such the marine game pays for it."
Only if you keep rushing this one lerk over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And even if you don't!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spores useless at third hive, and if you give them to any other class it'll negatively affect their use. Sporing skulks? Sporing Fade? Sporing gorge? Sporing Onos? Sporing gorge wouldnt be as bad (no mobility tbh) but then he'll just sit at his OC nest chuckling... and it'll discourage him from building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spores shouldn't be on another alien, however spores should be relatively useless at third hive. In the ame circumstances that spores are useless at third hive, so are the following third hive abilities...Web, Charge, Xenocide (in most cases). The only alien that retains useful abilities, no matter what the circumstance, no matter what point the game is at...with all three hives, is the fade...probably a trade off seeming the amount of skill it takes to truely master blink/swiping. Why should spore be any different to the other 3 alien classes that lose the effectiveness of an ability at hive three against HA's?
Not to mention you'd lose that ability anyway as a hive one ability against HA's, and what happens when they roll out and you've just got two hives? One buggered lerk that can only umbra as support. At least with spore at hive three the lerk would still have two effective abilities, plus spore (semi-effective depending on team work of marines).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Erm... if it nerfs them at first hive then it'll nerf them overall, imho. To an extent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It nerfs the alien team at the first hive, yes. But they need it in a way...I still see marines losing more games in 2.01d right now than aliens.
Otherthan that it doesn't nerf the lerk, it just means he needs to be somewhere else doing something else. It nerfs his ability to kill marines, and nerfs his ability to go it alone for the whole map. But for it it gives him better support capability throughout the game and thus more protection by people around him.
Overall I'd expect the lerk to turn out to be neither nerfed nor boosted in its ability...however with its changes I'd also hope that the alien team suffers a slight nerf at the early game, but similarly a bit of a boost nearer the marines end game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So all the teamplayers have to take on the burden of another support role. Sure, we don't "have" to, but then we don't have to nerf the lerk either <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that such a chore? If it means helping the team then I will lerk...it's not a problem for me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which no other class has to deal with. Yes I love teamwork but no the game shouldn't be tilted so that people are forced into it just because they have chosen a certain class.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gorge on his own won't survive unless he's been able to make up an OC nest, and only on the rare occasion that he's not going to move from that spot will he constantly be safe in the early game. A skulk on his own can't take on 5 marines and win out, a fade on his own can't take on a base of marines and win out, and an onos can't take on a base of marines and win out.
A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, and spike turrets to death, or PG's or whatever. A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, spike a basic marine or two that are getting res and run away (guerilla style). In the same light a skulk can take out a few marines and maybe get away, a skulk can parasite a couple or marines and get away...but to be truely useful in a devestating sense...the skulks need to team up.
A lerk spiking a PG or TF...or a couple or res building marines...they are being useful, but devestatingly useful? No, then they'd need to be with their team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But if you want to break a turret farm, you'll have to Umbra constantly, and to do so that means adrenaline. Spores break a turret farm before its built, meaning less need for adrenaline. Currently lerks at hive one only need adren if they're going for spore spammage of a base. Since marines usually lockdown one hive, that guarantees you'll face a siege early on in the game, and thus *need* mc first. While I like MC first, I don't like to be forced into my choices by the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need adrenaline at all, umbra works for adequettely long enough that unless the marine outpost is stretched over 20 meters, you should be able to regularly umbra the place and not run out of energy. They won't need MC first as standard...and what the Lerk might lack in adrenaline, the skulks and such will gain in regeneration or carapace for the actual taking out of the base, and being fired upon. If sensory goes first then all aliens there will be able to get in on the base closer without being detected, or if the PG is down be able to see when marines are coming to backup and not get caught out.
Just because the lerk is slightly disadvantaged doesn't mean that the other aliens won't be greatly advantaged by chamber choice AND the lerks support.
Aliens shouldn't be able to break a siege base before it's built because of one alien. Bottom line.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Makes perfect sense. The marines are meant to work for their res, because well funded marines are hard marines to kill. Thats why every kharaa can cap a res - earlygame res domination. The rines are meant to take a few well held rts before crushing the kharaa. Lerks stop the expansion dead. Skulks can't stop expansion, gorges can't afford the res for OC walls that early (and to be honest WoLs aren't effective at stopping expansion) and fades/onos don't appear early enough. Solution? Lerk. To counter this (basic) strength, they're less offensive endgame. Much like gorges, who have the great strength of building, but (basic) are rather poor offensively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just plain wrong on so many levels. Sorry. Skulks can very easily stop expansion, if they're alert. Watch clan match demo's, and watch any player with a decent standard...and you'll see that as soon as a res point has gone down for the marines, within 10 seconds a skulk or two will be on top of it and destroying it. The aliens don't need lerks to put the marines down so much, they just need to be more aware of where the marines are putting their res, and to attack it.
This alone can stave off marine res income for long enough that they only research HA when the onoses roll in. They don't need lerks to add to that and completely kill off the marines before the game is even started. For me it doesn't at all make perfect sense for the lerk to be so overpowering against expansion, for me it makes sense that marines are so utterly disadvantaged REGARDLESS of the skill they or their comm possess, thanks to the lerks presence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To move the spore to a middly move only means that ALL early moves would need to be improved to counter the loss of spore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, aliens would just need to teamwork more. The loss of spore would be game balancing rather than imbalancing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or we're back to the unstoppable siege rush scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which was never unstoppable...aliens just get lazy, obviously.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO hive one is where early game weapons should be. While I agree in part that at a one hive endgame the lerk is effectively useless.... I would also have to point out that in a one hive endgame, its an alien loss. And thats regardless of what a lerk is doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fairly lost yes..though not entirely. You should still have a large part of a sensory network up, should still have lvl 3 abilities for all three chambers, and res coming through. A marine team facing three hive aliens should lose, but if they're commited and a bit lucky, they can fight back...so should aliens be able to.
Don't you agree some of the most enjoyable games are those with unforseen turn arounds at the dying moments?
However thats just a general game comment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree totally - I don't think any game/class/weapon should be "altered" so that players are FORCED into things. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're already forced into things as the other alien classes, you just don't realise it because you've come to play them and accept them. If lerks had the arrangement of abilities that I have laid out from the beginning of 2.0, people wouldn't complain about being forced into anything, they'd just play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A flying version of acid spit and healspray, imho. Only without the building. And at least the gorge gets bilebomb at hive two... the lerk has to look forward to another support option. Spores at hive two? Virtually no different from spores at hive one, but at the same time it just makes the lerk a flying gorge who can't build.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, obviously you feel utterly against the lerk not being able to attack. While I would tell you that if you really so desperately want to attack, then go skulk or fade/onos when you have the res...you probably won't listen to that either because you must like the lerk far too much as it is.
Others of us would much prefer to be able to support in the way we see lerks meaning to support from hive one, and see the spores move as a great change. This is the difference, and the debate is really going to be lost in any posts beyond this because ultimately this discussion is coming down to the fact that you don't like the lerk not being so powerful at hive one, or at least that you don't like the idea of the lerk being taken away from the attacking scene, and the fact that I don't like that the lerk is so powerful at hive one and see the lerk as needing a gameplay change to bring it into a more team useful role.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is overpowered, if you charge into it. Its like a portable temporary minefield. A single skulk couldn't do half the job a single lerk can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even more reason for it to lose spore at hive one imo, and it's certainly not just effective (as I've said many a time) if you charge into it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk keeps marines out of an area, whereas skulks need to be in teams and have to actually get close.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks can very easily hide, and pounce on patrolling marines, to great area denial effect. A skulk doesn't need to be running headlong at a marine team all the time, infact they probably shouldn't be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see a balance of "imbalances". The lerk has the best area denial weapon in the game.... but is physically weak. Other classes can't deny area for that price, but are physically tougher. Earlygame his weapons are potent, lategame they're not - every other class has a much more even spread.
Some would say thats an imbalance, but I see the lerk as living artillery, or mortar unit. Terrifying if approached incorrectly, useless when confronted on the opponent's terms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I see the lerk as a living breathing problem...a problem that has deep rooted effects on gameplay balance on a whole and on the alien team. To make a loose and arguably stupid comparison, it is the AWM of NS. It's the weapon that in the right hands (assuming that the other team never get the money to buy one) can simply dominate a game and even ruin it for the opposing team...while in the wrong hands is just a waste for the team. It's imballancing and it's overpowerful.
While I won't get into a CS argument, that game could be resolved in terms of fun and game balance by the simple removal of that weapon...and the alteration to the lerk in NS to remove its ablity to BE that weapon would have the same effect.
Trouble is, it seems that the lerk has gone on as it is for far too long, and just as there are far too many advocateurs of the AWM in CS, there are beginning to be too many people that will fight tooth and nail to keep NS's imbalance in the game too.
Early game it is overpowered...and as such lerks rarely see a marine end game...this is balanced to you?
Every other alien has a spread of abilities that work at the right times adequetely...yet the lerk has an ability that can, on its own, control key areas, stop expansion and kill off any building attempts so that it neve needs its other abilities....this is balanced to you?
I am just utterly confused how anyone can see these prevailent imbalances...coupled with the fact that even marines that try to ignore the lerks they can't kill are affected by them...that marines lose a great deal of fun thanks to having to be affected by spore even if they're not stupid enough to chase one down...are imbalances that somehow deserve to stay in the game because "they deserve an attacking option at hive 1"
I just can't get my head around the logic of it I'm afraid, and I certainly can't see what these opponents terms are.
The lerk does the job of 10 skulks in areas denial and does it with impunity. Even if the commander is smart his marines will face spore clouds in their base. Of course the counter to this is to get res points to build base defenses, of which routes to...or the points themselves will be spored that marines will die before the point is built. If marines want to take any point on the map of importance, there is a vent there and most likely a good lerk will know to be there. Building in these places is impossible without huge res backup from the commander.
If the marines wish for any other tactic than HA trains (which is hard to get off the ground due to lack of decent res flow (see above)), then they need to be building either jump bases to attack hive locations (building or built) or siege bases. These are also impossible to build without massive res backup by the comm, and so can be held off by a SINGLE player for large amounts of time before even the tardiest backup arrives to finish the marines plans fully.
Yet apparantly all that is needed to solve the lerk problem for marines is Marine education? I think that idea is a joke.
As an alien I only 1 out of 10 games see a lerk do something supporting its team...as a skulk I never get umbra'd, the extent of the lerks supportive capabilities in my games seem to be primal scream at the end of yet another win...I go gorge for the fact that aliens are boringly simple to use, and gorge is the only thing you can still do which has a constant use. As a skulk marines are either res starved or severely weakened and are easy prey, and in no small part is this aided by the lerks contribution...boring me to death as a skulk while they rack up kills while they spore enough of a coridoor that...while marines ignore the lerk that they can't kill..they still get so badly hurt in the gas that a quick spiking kills them from the lerk.
Your points are very very valid, necrosis, however I think it's about time we just say that between us we'll have to agree to disagree...because while you obviously aren't going to agree with game balance tweaks and the lerks reattunement in favour of keeping the lerk as this overpowered beast (because you balance this out with the end game weakness it never witnesses), I can't help but see the lerk as an easily solvable problem that only a minority of people will have sulky moments over losing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think any game/class/weapon should be "altered" so that players are FORCED into things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well you ARE forced to wait 100 resources to go onos, you are FORCED not to use leap until hive 2 and u are also FORCED to put down only 1 chamber per hive, so i dont see why you like natural selection then if you dont like the idea of being FORCED not to be able to do something due to hives becuase everything on aliens is in the early games to be FORCED to deal and use only certain weapons, now i ask you why do u consider moving umbra to hive 1 a nerf? it will certainly nerf the lerk and its spam for kills but it still has spikes, and umbra which definelty is used for support and can have 4-5 skulks stop a HA rush (if no onos fades are around)
As a brief aside, how long will it be before each page can only show one of our posts? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Selfish gorge-
"That scenario is very rare on any decent server,"
No, I've seen it on Lunixmonster, and its the only one I *know* to be a decent server. The other servers are great but I don't play regularly enough on them to ascertain the skill of their playerbase. And as for "learn they have to heal people", they don't have to learn. They can potter about the map doing nothing, and the only thing stopping them is being kicked or the threat of being kicked.
"It's hardly ever spore and run. It's spore and take cover"
Which is splitting hairs. They spore, they hide, they spore again. Thats what a textbook hit and run campaign is.
"The marines shouldn't be doing what they're doing and the lerks shouldn't be able to do what they're doing."
So how do we "alter" marines for that not to happen? IMHO we can't - its player attitude and intelligence that stops marines from running into OC nests, or rushing dbl res thinking one shotty will pwn teh big rhino thing. Which I compare to misuse of lerks.
Changing the lerk means even the worst marine comm will be able to rush dbl res (assuming marines capable of aiming). In fact marines would have free reign to rush any location, as long at they kept together. No one unit would be able to stop their expansion, and since marines get a huge advantage once they get res this WILL affect the balance, IMHO negatively.
I don't mind marines doing better, but certainly not at the cost of simplifying the game.
"Team players *have* to go lerk and gorge, because noone else will."
"And that is a bad thing? Currently the real team players either go gore or save res for onos (after contributing to res building etc) while directing the team."
Yes IMHO it is a bad thing, I spend enough games as a permagorge because of woeful players and I'll be damned if I've to spend my entire game as a support class purely because every fraghunter and their mother intends to hoard for Onos. Lerk exists very much as the nub class for aliens. Its an easy entry level kharaa that you can get to grips with. Assuming you're not stupid, you can live forever. While all the nubs pack into that class and learn teamwork, the more experienced players can go fade, gorge, onos if need be. If lerk goes support, then the nubs hoard for fade... discover they CAN'T use fade (come on, its not exactly a forgiving class if you're a mindless fraghunter) and end up saving for lerk. Experienced players end up as second fiddle to the fraghunters. As an alien player, I expect to do my bit for the team and have FUN. I like to go fade. I'm lucky to get close to 50 res on servers where there's little teamwork, and forcing me to go lerk instead of fade not only negatively affects my game, but takes out the fun as I am forced to wipe the bottom of people who quite frankly shouldn't be playing the game.
You may disagree. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I'd wager that if you asked most experience players if they wanted to be forced into going gorge then lerk *only*, in every single game, you'd get a lot of negative answers.
"they do this by watching the real gorge players do what they do...and they learn that it is the effective way to use them."
Nope, I've personally followed a new gorge player to help him out and just watched him place OCs in truly bizarre places. Behind crates. Right beside corners where even an LMG marine can clip the OC and destroy it. Massive OC walls at the exits of hives, sometimes two chambers high and thus impassable to most higher level aliens.
Seasoned bad players. I don't think rearranging the build ability will solve that, so I accept it and educate where I can. Ditto the lerk - some bad players are irredeemable, but that doesnt mean the class gets lobotomised.
"People new to the game looking at lerks, they just see people sporing and spiking."
And where's the education that would help them if they were gorge? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"but much like the gorge, anyone that is new to the game that isn't straight out from CS, or anyone that is simply a good player thats new to the game...they'll see what the gorge AND lerk can do."
The new improved super support lerk. TBH I've seen standard players refuse to go gorge and drop a hive/chambers DESPITE knowing how handy it is. A nerfed lerk means people go onos and order other people to do the support work. Thats not teamwork. Gorges end up doing the monkeywork now, even on good servers. Going gorge is a death sentence because so few other people will pull their finger out and CONTRIBUTE. I've no reason to assume that it will NOT be different for the lerk if its moved to a wholly support role.
And then what's stopping those players learning support now? Lerks, misused as they are, still provide area denial. Its an interesting thing that you can push gorge education as the solution to bad gorges, but that the solution to the lerk is "altering" them, rather than marine/lerk education.
"What use is it to set up a siege point outside an innactive area?"
For one you can get the buildings up. Secondly, inactive does not mean strategically flawed. If you siege a hive on its doorstep, aliens will keep spawning in from all directions and know exactly where the siege is. Take 2 choke points that cut off movement and you're in a better position - aliens have to travel to your base, and its in a well placed position. Its not jammed in a short corridor right outside the hive.
"This is an IMMENSE teamwork effort, it requires excellent communication and constant vigilance on your res points throughout the game...and as such also only works against average or worse alien teams."
And unfortunately teamwork and a clever comm is what marines need. People are stuck in a certain mindset that does not take into account the huge difference between aliens and marines. Starcraft, Dune, etc, all those games involve similar build times and rates of res income. NS is vastly different, and people approach it with the SAME strats expecting it to work.
Base building in obvious areas = bad. Hardly anyone rushes dbl res nodes now, and thats because they've learned the hard way what should have been obvious to see - marines cannot consolidate at the same speed as aliens. Its the same for any location - if you get found, you won't hold it. Case in point, excellent BM game where the marines feinted at one hive before attacking the other. Aliens caught flatfooted, aliens lose. Camping in the most obvious place is only going to get you hassle.
"Lerks overpower marines in expansion and base building, yet can do little against HA trains."
The use, the counter. Lerks designed to stop marines doing massive turret farms, HA designed to counter - something you can only research if you're not building massive pointless turret farms.
"Although the former rarely happens (in my experiance) and the latter in ever-present."
And v.v. I rarely see a selfish lerk, even the most clueless one (what does that scream noise mean?) can still spore an expansion dead.
"Play on any server where there is a base of regular players..say always at least 6 includng yourself"
So we're taking out the new/inexperienced players? The ones who cause the problems? In any case, I've still had "build def chambers" barked at me. If 1.04 was worse then I feel real sorry for whoever gorged back then. Currently, I still see experienced players, even forum members, bark demands rather than contribute.
"the gorge in your example almost never happens and almost never needs to be covered"
You misunderstand. I mean cover their role. As I tried to explain clearly, if I see a gorge or two and then go to fade, thats 50 res down the pipe only to discover the gorge is brainless and has to be replaced (his role covered by me). Worse yet is when i've went onos. At least with a lerk, it'll only cost 30 res to replace - I can get that back relatively quickly. Getting 100 res back so that I can drop a hive and a few chambers takes a lot longer. Make better sense?
"In the ame circumstances that spores are useless at third hive, so are the following third hive abilities...Web, Charge, Xenocide (in most cases)."
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Web, Charge, and Xeno are never useless though. All are effective game enders. Against HA or LA. Spores are restricted to one class, and are all but useless by the time you've a third hive up. Spores won't end a game, but Scream will. IMHO spores are the expansion counter, to make marines more intelligent and devious - a move to third hive/endgame effectively removes that expansion counter.
"HA's, and what happens when they roll out and you've just got two hives? One buggered lerk that can only umbra as support."
Again, the balance intended. Lerks are designed to halt and contain the initial expansion, afterwards they've a support role. Marines are empowered by HA, and rightly so - if every unit could counter every other unit then we'd be playing chess, not NS.
"I still see marines losing more games in 2.01d right now than aliens."
IMHO I'm pointing right at most comms and their continued insistence on doorstep sieges and dbl res nodes.
"Is that such a chore? If it means helping the team then I will lerk...it's not a problem for me."
Covered above, but yes it IS a chore to be support class for the entire game. I enjoy gorge (nothing like a well made defence), I enjoy lerk (endgame support) but most importantly I enjoy the ability to switch to other classes. I am not penalised for my need to work as a team. Under a support gorge+lerk system, I *will* be penalised for wanting teamwork, because the bad players will instantly hoard or worse yet actually try to use fade and end up losing 50 res at a time - before deciding to stick with onos.
QUOTE Which no other class has to deal with. Yes I love teamwork but no the game shouldn't be tilted so that people are forced into it just because they have chosen a certain class.
A gorge on his own won't survive unless he's been able to make up an OC nest, and only on the rare occasion that he's not going to move from that spot will he constantly be safe in the early game. A skulk on his own can't take on 5 marines and win out, a fade on his own can't take on a base of marines and win out, and an onos can't take on a base of marines and win out.
A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, and spike turrets to death, or PG's or whatever. A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, spike a basic marine or two that are getting res and run away (guerilla style). In the same light a skulk can take out a few marines and maybe get away, a skulk can parasite a couple or marines and get away...but to be truely useful in a devestating sense...the skulks need to team up.
A lerk spiking a PG or TF...or a couple or res building marines...they are being useful, but devestatingly useful? No, then they'd need to be with their team.
QUOTE But if you want to break a turret farm, you'll have to Umbra constantly, and to do so that means adrenaline. Spores break a turret farm before its built, meaning less need for adrenaline. Currently lerks at hive one only need adren if they're going for spore spammage of a base. Since marines usually lockdown one hive, that guarantees you'll face a siege early on in the game, and thus *need* mc first. While I like MC first, I don't like to be forced into my choices by the game.
"umbra works for adequettely long enough"
Not in my experience. You can drop 2-3 clouds, one of which is the entrance to base/tfac, the other you'll save for your retreat, and the third covers wherever your teammates go. And by doing so you've prevented the ability to spike up a marine/turret.
Compare to three spore clouds which, while not covering the team, will most certainly kill all marines present or force them to retreat. You won't take out the turret farm but you will take out the builders and welders. DC first means less lerk umbra cover, and as good as it is, upgrades will negate this. Marine expansion is still unchecked.
Lerk spores can be deployed from vent, and thus contain expansion without excessive cost. Which is their intended purpose, I believe.
"Just because the lerk is slightly disadvantaged doesn't mean that the other aliens won't be greatly advantaged by chamber choice AND the lerks support."
Other classes would be disadvantaged because without lerk "population control" of marines, aliens will be facing more of them and in better shape.
"Aliens shouldn't be able to break a siege base before it's built because of one alien. Bottom line."
Marines shouldn't be building pointless sieges that can be stopped by a lerk in a vent. My bottom line. Its just like a marine with a GL and JP. He can park in vents and spam gl all over any alien base. He's hard to hit, hell most alien classes can't touch him. Solution? If you can't kill, avoid.
If sieges were used properly, the base would be up and the rines would rush from this safe choke point into a hive. The lerk has the option of gassing/spiking a PG or TF for several minutes, or trying to defend his hive. Currently sieges are placed in silly positions, hence the lerk has an easier choice.
"Watch clan match demo's, and watch any player with a decent standard"
I don't think NS is meant to be an elitist game that can only truly be enjoyed by super skulks. That said, you don't need to be a genius comm to win - just a clever one. Likewise I don't expect NS to be a game that a chimp can play. There has to be a balance. And altering the game to allow flawed strategies to work just seems oddly oddly wrong.
The lerk is the nub alien player. Easy to use, easy to learn. Taking that out means moving new players to another class - and sadly the only other easy to use class is the Onos.
"Not at all, aliens would just need to teamwork more. The loss of spore would be game balancing rather than imbalancing."
Nope, loss of spore = more aggressive rines. More aggressive rines need better players/abilities to counter. Something aliens do not have. Where do the new players go? Skulk? They learn they die to everything rather quickly, and failing that end up having to learn how to ambush, unless they go for option 2. The fade! They learn that fade suxor, shotty kill me one hit. So that leaves.... the Onos! But the only way to get there is to hoard res all game.
Which is interesting, but then what do experienced players have to do? They'll have to go lerk/gorge permanently. Why permanently? Three hives, 9-27 upgrade chambers at hives alone, and who knows how many OCs. What do the bad players learn? That everyone else exists to wipe their nose.
Its not a simple matter of "encouraging" teamwork. We were all new players once, and IMHO no one person, class, or "feature" made me want to work as a team. It was something inherent to me. Likewise when you're on the server, and you try to ask someone who has 80 res to gorge a hive, or chamber upgrades. They just say "but I'm saving for onos" or "well if I die then I can come back as another onos/fade". Such people won't be helped by negative game nerfs. It'll only have the effect of making it a worse game for experienced players.
Sure, clans will have a fun time, but in clans you can say "ok this game you gorge, and you lerk, you onos and you three fade when you can" and switch roles around.... but on pub servers if you're a team player then by necessity you WILL end up having to do all the chores for zero gain. I've played several rounds on servers where two of us were quite literally permagorges.
And it's unfair to force people to have to join a clan just to enjoy a game. It'll kill the influx of new players and means NS is reduced to a bunch of gamers who've been playing it for years, with little to no influx of new players because its "too hard".
"Or we're back to the unstoppable siege rush scenario."
"Which was never unstoppable...aliens just get lazy, obviously."
Counter to expansion is spores. Barring that, bloody good players. On pub servers anyone can spore, tho I very much doubt everyone has the capacity to pween a team of marines. Lets just beat in mind that you're meant to fall back from spores - rushing in as a skulk just gives them something to kill. Seeing a spore cloud is like seeing an onos - you don't rush it and you don't complain about it blocking your expansion. You cope with it or you go around. You don't "alter" the onos so that marines can shoot it easily.
One hive endgame
"You should still have a large part of a sensory network up, should still have lvl 3 abilities for all three chambers, and res coming through."
Doubtful on the sensory network as it's largely a third hive choice. On the offchance the aliens had two hives, lost one, regained it, and lost it again (allowing all three chambers) then thats 35 res for hive, plus 30 for chambers, then another 35 res plus 30 to put down basic sensory. Doesn't leave much for a network, certainly not if the marines have kept the pressure on hive 2 (which is how most of these games end).
In the hypothetical land of hive 3 spore, the first lockdown was guaranteed and sieges will be much harder to stop. Marine win would be much easier to pull off and harder to counter. Too hard? More than likely if you're relying on lerks having to umbra *every* confrontation, regardless of whether or not a vent is nearby to hide in.
"You're already forced into things as the other alien classes, you just don't realise it because you've come to play them and accept them."
No, I'm encouraged into certain things and I certainly DO realise it. As I've pointed out, all other classes have the capacity to switch roles. Currently the lerk does too. With a spore move, the lerk is stuck in its one role all the way up to third hive. Kind of like a fade but not as fun.
"If lerks had the arrangement of abilities that I have laid out from the beginning of 2.0, people wouldn't complain about being forced into anything, they'd just play."
They'd complain about no way to hold back marines, and that it's unrealistic to expect 2-3 skulks be able to stop a team of 8 marines rushing to put up a siege.
"obviously you feel utterly against the lerk not being able to attack. While I would tell you that if you really so desperately want to attack, then go skulk or fade/onos when you have the res."
No, I'm utterly against the lerk being relegated to support when no other alien has to fill that role. Gorges might not have rock hard offensive weaponry but they can build very good fortifications. Lerks can't. Secondly, the suggestion of going to another class is EXACTLY what the fraghunters will take - and in their case straight to onos, leaving the teamplayers with the work.
"..you probably won't listen to that either because you must like the lerk far too much as it is."
Setting aside the perceived personal attack, I have to say that again this is what you'll expect from people who misuse the lerk. They want their kills, and they'll go to onos.
"you don't like the lerk not being so powerful at hive one, or at least that you don't like the idea of the lerk being taken away from the attacking scene"
Its the lerks job. Area denial. Its only powerful because rather than counter it people end up doing quite irrational things, then kicking up a stink because they can't. Our difference, so I initially thought, was that I perceive the lerk in an strong early area denial role, and in ENDGAME its moved to the support of the final push.
Thats its team role, which it does very well, and without it then aliens would need ANOTHER powerful counter to marine expansion, or a general improvement of all classes.
"Skulks can very easily hide, and pounce on patrolling marines, to great area denial effect."
Not in all maps, not in all locations, and not against all marines. Good marines don't fall into skulk ambushes. Marines can also kill skulks very easily, so the area denial is limited to GOOD skulks and BAD marines. A lerk can spore anyone with equal ease, in a wider variety of locations, at range. That is why it is involved in area denial. Because marines can't kill it, and insist on strategies that outright will not work, it is perceived as more overpowered than it really is.
"it is the AWM of NS. It's the weapon that in the right hands (assuming that the other team never get the money to buy one) can simply dominate a game and even ruin it for the opposing team...while in the wrong hands is just a waste for the team. It's imballancing and it's overpowerful."
But to elaborate on the comparison, the AWP isnt useless in the mid to end game.
"Early game it is overpowered...and as such lerks rarely see a marine end game...this is balanced to you?"
Perfectly. Earlygame strong, endgame weak. Balanced. Other classes are earlygame ok, endgame ok. Thats balance too. The lerk merely has its balance redistributed.
Its the same imbalance between the teams. Marines have a weak earlygame, strong lategame. Kharaa have the opposite.
Your post continues with a fine example of what comms should already know and be reacting to. Except the HA train. Its certainly not a necessity, though its a good counter to widespread lerks.
"Your points are very very valid, necrosis, however I think it's about time we just say that between us we'll have to agree to disagree...because while you obviously aren't going to agree with game balance tweaks and the lerks reattunement in favour of keeping the lerk as this overpowered beast (because you balance this out with the end game weakness it never witnesses), I can't help but see the lerk as an easily solvable problem that only a minority of people will have sulky moments over losing."
I on the other hand will say we agree to disagree. We have differing concepts of balance, and it is those concepts that divide us. I would like to think its not an issue of sulking, or huffing, or people demanding the odds are stacked in their favour. IMHO on an educated level it has nothing to do with that. I would like to think that instead we are divided on the Lerk's role, something perhaps that has divided the dev/pt team and has no doubt been around since NS began and will certainly be around at its end.
Thanks for keeping the discussion largely civil (tho we did get a bit heated <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and hopefully someday there'll be a solution to make us both happy.
Diablus - I believe I covered some of your points in the above post. For conciseness I don't think I need to reiterate them here <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Sep 5 2003, 10:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 5 2003, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As a brief aside, how long will it be before each page can only show one of our posts? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't it already nearly the case? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Still, that doesn't really matter, as long as the discussion is good and not heated <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Keep on guys <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Wuts really annoying are redemption onos... screw the lerk... the lerk cant damage you as fast nor can they stop u on ur tracks and eat u... while already being hard enough to kill: so jus deal with it cuz there r far worse things than lerks... besides once u get heavy armor a lerk is almost useless xcept for umbra and primal scream.
Okay End Game Onii tend to be a true annoyance in the end-games, but we already know a way to deal with that that is pretty much effective: the "onos-trap" or set of 5mines dropped on each other at one spot kills an onos instantly. With Redemption or not. It may work in the End, Middle, Early games too by the way.
Plus, there are already alot of topics wich target is to deal with the (Redeeming) Onos issue, so that's why talking about it here, where the "problem" of the lerk is what is discussed is not too much relevant.
We pretty know now that the lerk is helpless facing heavies if he only have a 1st hive ability, that is, spores. We were trying to get to know what would suit best a lerk, in our opinions, from a rather "pro-alien" point of vue, regarding it's "supportive class" feature.
Hmm... Still, saying that there are far worse things than lerks is a point of vue... I consider the lerk like being really deadly in his actual form, and in capacity of changing the balance between the near death of a 3rd hive and it's salvation; or an alien assault being useless, and saying it succeed, because of it's second and third hive abilities.
Lerks are trully not to be understimated, if in the hands of players who know how to use it properly and in a team orientated mind.
<!--QuoteBegin--X.o.+Sep 6 2003, 07:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X.o. @ Sep 6 2003, 07:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wuts really annoying are redemption onos... screw the lerk... the lerk cant damage you as fast nor can they stop u on ur tracks and eat u... while already being hard enough to kill: so jus deal with it cuz there r far worse things than lerks... besides once u get heavy armor a lerk is almost useless xcept for umbra and primal scream. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not counting with the fact that lerk costs 30 and can be aquired in about 2 mins, while you need HA which costs ~100 res to get and another 20 per man.
Not counting a lerk can also redeem just as well, while it also moves faster and in 3d.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wuts really annoying are redemption onos... screw the lerk... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lerks come aearly in the game where marines are vulnerable the most. i find nothing wrong with going agasint an onos because usually i know im at lvl 2-3 weapons and usually have a shotgun or another weapon of some sort. lerks on the other hand u have 2 choices with them: ask the commander to waste 10 valuble resources that marines need to start off thier game, and even after u have the shotgun theres no real way u can have a 100% chance of killing the lerk that might even know your comming and will stick to vents
<!--QuoteBegin--X.o.+Sep 6 2003, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X.o. @ Sep 6 2003, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Wuts really annoying are redemption onos... screw the lerk... the lerk cant damage you as fast nor can they stop u on ur tracks and eat u... while already being hard enough to kill: so jus deal with it cuz there r far worse things than lerks... besides once u get heavy armor a lerk is almost useless xcept for umbra and primal scream. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Lets just compare this a second....4 marines are running towards an onos...a *slow* onos, even with celerity...and fires at it. The onos in a fit of stupidity decides to stand his ground. 4 LMG's rip into the onos and it redeems. No-one is hurt, anyone devoured is left where they are. End result? 4 alive marines and one healing onos at a hive faaaar away from the base.
now those same 4 marines fire at a lerk. The lerk has spored the base, the corner of the base, and spores all the way up the corridor as it flies away before marines can catch it.
If the marines are stupid in 11 seconds all four of them will drop dead. If they're sensible they'll find a clean piece of air and sit there with about 40-60hp each...while the lerk gets ready to come back again straight away.
But of course, the onos is the one everyone should fear <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Sep 6 2003, 04:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 6 2003, 04:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I've seen it on Lunixmonster, and its the only one I *know* to be a decent server. The other servers are great but I don't play regularly enough on them to ascertain the skill of their playerbase. And as for "learn they have to heal people", they don't have to learn. They can potter about the map doing nothing, and the only thing stopping them is being kicked or the threat of being kicked. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well personally I've never seen a gorge that does anything more useless than not asking which chamber alien wants before placing it...maybe linux monster isn't as decent as you think <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Changing the lerk means even the worst marine comm will be able to rush dbl res <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all...most double res take overs are done before lerks are available at all...double res take overs are usually relocates and any semi-decent alien team will clear them out with skulks alone.
It's after they're there that thelerk causes the problems for marines...as if the marines fighting off the aliens to relocate isn't reward enough to have a bit of a claim over the base, the lerk then is able to punish the marines for their success. But I digress...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So how do we "alter" marines for that not to happen? IMHO we can't - its player attitude and intelligence that stops marines from running into OC nests, or rushing dbl res thinking one shotty will pwn teh big rhino thing. Which I compare to misuse of lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between this and the lerks effect with spores is that in the example above it takes a dumb marine to get itself into trouble and killed. In the lerks spore case, it takes any marine, regardless of skill, to get effected in some degree. I can't see how at any point you can compare the passive effect a lerk has on marines without them really having made the desision to risk spores, to a marine rushing into known death. The two aren't even slightly the same. It's like comparing someone that does hard drugs to the effect a person doing hard drugs has on his family. One is self inflicted, and one is something that people have to live with because they have no real choice unless the drug taker will have some kind of epiphany.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one unit would be able to stop their expansion, and since marines get a huge advantage once they get res this WILL affect the balance, IMHO negatively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't how it works, because the lerk is the only unit in the game that gets more effective the bigger the group it faces. If a lerk is sporing one man...well woop, thats great. If it's facing 6 marines, that lerk is having a pay day. Thats 6 marines it's screwing up in one go, and if those marines HAVE to go and secure that res point, and can't see that lerk in the vent for more than a split second, then they will have to take the gas.
This means 6 dead marines, or a good 20 res wasted on med packs.
A lerk is the master of stopping expansion...and this is in my eyes just plain wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't mind marines doing better, but certainly not at the cost of simplifying the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just boggles my mind. How is taking out the aliens spores at hive 1 simplifying the game? It means the lerk needs to do more things with its team, and the alien team needs to work harder as a team to deny res and stop expansion. For the aliens the game gets a little more complicated.
For marines expansion gets simpler, yes, but dealing with aliens should get more compicated if umbra starts getting used more frequently...and the whole avenue it opens for more tactics available to marines can't make the game any simpler in itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its an easy entry level kharaa that you can get to grips with. Assuming you're not stupid, you can live forever. While all the nubs pack into that class and learn teamwork, the more experienced players can go fade, gorge, onos if need be<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is a shocking statement, I don't see why newbies should be restricted to a class that is simple for them...with little oppertuinity unless they wish to take it to actually learn the game...just so experianced playes get the pick of the other classes? If anything the changes would mean newbie players are forced to learn the game.
Is this a bad thing or should we expect new players to stay "new" for the short term benefits to the experianced players game? Personally, I think people should be more willing to pass on wisdom and lose some games, if it means the community size and skill is increased...I certainly cannot agree to any degree with your resolution to keep the newbies content with their little overpowered class so long as it doesn't cost the game for the experianced guys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like to go fade. I'm lucky to get close to 50 res on servers where there's little teamwork, and forcing me to go lerk instead of fade not only negatively affects my game, but takes out the fun as I am forced to wipe the bottom of people who quite frankly shouldn't be playing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds highly elitist <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> You don't HAVE to do anything to "wipe the bottoms of people", you can do whatever you like to have fun in the game, meanwhile other people that are a little different to you will go lerk or learn lerk for the teams benefit.
I don't think this "we're the players of this game, and I don't want to waste my time on newbies" attitude is at all helpful for the game as a whole, and it also doesn't hold any baring or argument as to why lerks shouldn't be changed. If anything it does everything to show that changing the lerks would be a long term benefit to everyone. If there is one alien class where we can "relegate" new players and not bother with them...that needs to be changed anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may disagree. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I'd wager that if you asked most experience players if they wanted to be forced into going gorge then lerk *only*, in every single game, you'd get a lot of negative answers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No-one would be forced to do anything, if you and your other experianced players don't want to go gorge and lerk, don't go gorge and lerk. In the short time this might mean losses for aliens, in the long term it'll mean everyone knows how to play better and the game will benefit for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nope, I've personally followed a new gorge player to help him out and just watched him place OCs in truly bizarre places. Behind crates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then that is unfortunate, your experiances are obviously seriously worse than mine, because I can't say I see the problem you're talking about in any of the games I've played.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And where's the education that would help them if they were gorge? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its an interesting thing that you can push gorge education as the solution to bad gorges, but that the solution to the lerk is "altering" them, rather than marine/lerk education.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is a new gorge needs to learn if he needs to be effective, and as has been said, his problems are obvious to everyone.
A lerk with idiot tendancies goes without being noticed by the alien team for ages, and even then...what are you going to say...excuse me mr lerk, can you come give us some damn support?
A new player that wants to help his team might listen, most will stick to the possibility of frags, and not give the help requested.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Going gorge is a death sentence because so few other people will pull their finger out and CONTRIBUTE. I've no reason to assume that it will NOT be different for the lerk if its moved to a wholly support role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just wrong...yes if ALL players are frag hunting non-team players...then this happens. I feel you've got a kind of negative outlook on the players of the game, because I can't see this lack of wish to help and support myself. If anything, taking another attacking class and making it more support will help this mentality anyway in the long term.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"What use is it to set up a siege point outside an innactive area?"
For one you can get the buildings up. Secondly, inactive does not mean strategically flawed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines usually get one hive defended without issue, this is easy...it's also usually before ther lerks and aliens are actually trying to deny that area. After that pretty much anywhere marines go they'll be facing a building or built hive, the innactive hives aren't an issue, it's the tactic of sieging a hive being cut off before it begins by one alien that is the issue.
Yes, a team of aliens stopping a siege base going up...seeming the siege base is a big and costly tactic...sure. One alien stopping it? Sorry I can't see the balance in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Camping in the most obvious place is only going to get you hassle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Base building in obvious areas = bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly we're talking public games, so that should explain for one why the lerk needs to be changed to help marines in these cases.
Secondly it's not like the maps are designed so greatly that marines are able to get near enough to a hive to siege base without being heard. You can go on as much as you like about smart comms and **** like that but it's all bollocks, at the end of the day...if a marine team wishes to use the siege tactic, they need to get bloody close to a hive to do it...and that close means that it's either patrolled or is heard from inside the hive.
You claim the servers you're playing on have so many stupid and non-teamwork players...yet at the same time you talk about how the marines need to pull off these complicated and res costly strategies on public servers? Something doesn't add up here I'm afraid.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And unfortunately teamwork and a clever comm is what marines need. People are stuck in a certain mindset that does not take into account the huge difference between aliens and marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they're not, people are stuck in the fact that marines only have one tactic, and against any decent alien team that one tactic never works. Thats the problem with 2.0, and if changing lerks gives the marines a little more freedom, then where is the problem in this?
Go on all you like about educating marines and such, but at the end of the day the marines are too weak in the game to face aliens head on. Marines in 2.01d have got some nessacery changes to get boosts to allow expansion and collection of res, a couple of changes to things like lerks that so predominantly hamper marines can only end up helping to balance the game.
Screw the whole "oh but then new players might actually have to learn to play the game that = bad!" kind of attitude, these changes in theory will help the game balance in a way that doesn't need everyone to teach everyone else how to play, and take the marines in a direction the devs have obviously already taken in 2.01d.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even the most clueless one (what does that scream noise mean?) can still spore an expansion dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a problem that needs sorting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The use, the counter. Lerks designed to stop marines doing massive turret farms, HA designed to counter - something you can only research if you're not building massive pointless turret farms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But from yuor own writing, without these defenses lerks can run amock and help end the game before HA is viable or possible! t's very much catch 22 for the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we're taking out the new/inexperienced players? The ones who cause the problems? In any case, I've still had "build def chambers" barked at me. If 1.04 was worse then I feel real sorry for whoever gorged back then. Currently, I still see experienced players, even forum members, bark demands rather than contribute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that will always happen, you either live with it and do it, or tell them you can't and get them to do it.
If they won't do it the aliens will be disadvantaged and those players need to learn how to play the game, if they do do it then the teamis hunky-dory thanks very much.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You misunderstand. I mean cover their role. As I tried to explain clearly, if I see a gorge or two and then go to fade, thats 50 res down the pipe only to discover the gorge is brainless and has to be replaced<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the way the cookie crumbles some times, and I stand by my previous statement...it hardly ever happens. I do see a few times, maybe a few games out of every 10, the onos and fade players barking orders. No-one expects them to turn back into gorge to do stuff, instead the people still skulks are the ones we turn to. 9 times out of ten someone builds the chambers needed without being barked out, and almost every time I see an onos or fade needing a chamber set or hive needing to be built, some-one else is quite happy to do that.
Maybe you need to get off of your server to ones where they play NS, not "everyone go onos and fade" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Web, Charge, and Xeno are never useless though. All are effective game enders. Against HA or LA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Web is useless against HA, the welders rip through the webs as if they weren't there. Charge does no/little damage to people right now, especially HA marines...Xeno does damage but it is easily repaired and there's a while before that skulk can come back and xenocide.
The reality is against HA that the gorges build or heal things, the skulks bite, the onos's devour and gore...and as such lerks should be umbraing, primal screaming.
In the alien makeup this looks weird because to be looking the same as three of the other classes, the largely useless ability against HA should be in the hive three slot. This allows the HA to take out hives and still leave the aliens with abilities to counter them.
However if the game is ending for marines, and aliens are winning, then spores are just the icing on the cake to kill those marines faster. I see most lerks use spore at end games anyway...so why not move spores there, it's not like they'll change anything in alien end games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, the balance intended. Lerks are designed to halt and contain the initial expansion, afterwards they've a support role. Marines are empowered by HA, and rightly so - if every unit could counter every other unit then we'd be playing chess, not NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is not that the lerks can counter the HA's a little with the changes, but the fact that the lerks can't counter ha's at all, like the other aliens can, in the same circumstances as the other aliens. Yet they can do far more damage at the start of the game?
Nah, I'm sorry, that isn't balance...not even in a freaky upside down way you're explaining it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO I'm pointing right at most comms and their continued insistence on doorstep sieges and dbl res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all...not at all. You lay the blame on comms too much...it's not all down to poor comms. Most of the wins you see in 2.0 is not because a good comm is in the seat, it's because there are hopeless aliens in the other team...so stop with this whole "marines need to learn" crap, because it's just not the way it goes down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Covered above, but yes it IS a chore to be support class for the entire game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't do it, let someone else do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Other classes would be disadvantaged because without lerk "population control" of marines, aliens will be facing more of them and in better shape.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Diddums, a good alien team should still be able to deal with them. You seem far too comfortable with the current way of things...are you afraid of taking steps that mean less influence of one player and more need for teamwork? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines shouldn't be building pointless sieges that can be stopped by a lerk in a vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, its a very valid tactic for christ sake, there are more tactics than just teching up for HA trains you know? Why should marines be penalised for wanting some strategic diversity in their game? And I'm going to go back to one of the very early arguments here...the lerk needs not be in a vent!
He can just be nicely around the corner, coming up from behind or whatever. If a marine chases it'll be through clouds of spore only to get spiked. This isnt' enough of a distraction for the lerk to mea the clouds dissipate for long enough either.
If a marine or 4 are building a siege base it will always be in a place of danger. While I am quite happy to see a alien team effort to clear that base, I don't see at all how the game is balanced when one player can stop everything before it starts..as you say. Thats not balance...and you need to rethink how you're seeing these things.
You speak as though the way the game runs now is proof that marines shouldn't be able to do half the stuff we're talking about...have you played 1.04? Because from 1.04 a lot of tactics seem to have been lost or severely nerfed. These tactics need to be made viable again so that marines have some diversity. If this means that one poor lerk player has to change the way it plays, so be it. I don't think that the lerks properties needs defending in such ways as "well marines shouldn't be doing this perfectly viable tactic" or "marines shouldn't be going for these perfectly needed places" or "marines should not run out of their base to go and do the task assigned to it, if the lerk has spored everywhere!"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My bottom line. Its just like a marine with a GL and JP. He can park in vents and spam gl all over any alien base. He's hard to hit, hell most alien classes can't touch him. Solution? If you can't kill, avoid. My bottom line. Its just like a marine with a GL and JP. He can park in vents and spam gl all over any alien base. He's hard to hit, hell most alien classes can't touch him. Solution? If you can't kill, avoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, because you can really avoid Glers? If the guy is spamming one entrance to yuor hive, it's not hard at all to take a GLer down, I've done it enough times. if all entrances are covered by GLers, it's almost impossible to get out of your hive at all...
If you have a stalemate and marines are GL spamming their base entrances, this also means aliens can't get through. Lol, now you say these people need to be avoided? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but that is laughable. I also find it strange that you compare sporing to GL spamming, somethign widely seen as lame and argued against many a time to be nerfed... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently sieges are placed in silly positions, hence the lerk has an easier choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they're not, they're placed as far away from it's short radius to hit the hive as is possible...which all old is very close to the hive entrance. The only useful siege positions ARE risky and somewhat silly. They're a risk and an investment for the comm. This should be shown properly by showing that only adequete team work from an alien team can break it down...not one 30 res alien.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And altering the game to allow flawed strategies to work just seems oddly oddly wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're not flawed strats by any sens of the word...a flawed strategy to me is one alien being able to break a siege rush. The siege rush, the phase rush...they are old and still perfectly viable strategies...they shouldnt' be nerfed to some degree because of some peoples love for lerks spore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk is the nub alien player. Easy to use, easy to learn. Taking that out means moving new players to another class - and sadly the only other easy to use class is the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nope, loss of spore = more aggressive rines. More aggressive rines need better players/abilities to counter. Something aliens do not have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they do, play any NS game where lerks don't happen (I've played a few) and they're far more enjoyable games in 2.0. The aliens have to band together and work more...but they're still perfectly able. The loss of the lerk spore wouldn't make aliens super weak, they'd just stop the ability for aliens to count so heavily on one ability. It would also mean that new players need to learn how to use the classes.
Overall your counter arguments to the changes have either been strangely bizarre in light of how 1.0+ was played for marines (with the basic tactics that have to be carried through versions), or have kind of been proof in themselves to proove another point as to why the changes are good (arguing lerks should stay the same so that new players have "their class" whereas the changes would increase the standard of play in the same vein of thought!)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do the bad players learn? That everyone else exists to wipe their nose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or perhaps that they need to learn the game or their experiances in NS will be greatly varied depending on if those people are present to wipe their noses?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Such people won't be helped by negative game nerfs. It'll only have the effect of making it a worse game for experienced players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or if you don't look so negatively on the game, more people will learn how to be team players bcause their game experiance will be greatly effected if they don't, and people will get a better standard of play.
People do learn to change...they're having to with the fade, they're having to with jetpacks. They had to with aliens, at the start of 2.0 marines were still winning, then aliens adapted to the changes and took over.
Just because something gets nerfed doesn't mean it's going to just change things for the worse, it means people will adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And it's unfair to force people to have to join a clan just to enjoy a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is, and I hardly see lerks used in clan games too. I don't see why I as a marine and an alien shouldn't enjoy my public game just because there is an overpowering factor in the game that could in theory be changed so easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It'll kill the influx of new players and means NS is reduced to a bunch of gamers who've been playing it for years, with little to no influx of new players because its "too hard".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fail to see how it will become "too hard", all it'll do is become a little bit more like 1.04 where there was a little more reliance between the alien team than there is currently. There wasn't a problem then, why should there be a problem now? If the game is drawing new players because of things like the lerk and its overpowered abilities, then thats a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Counter to expansion is spores. Barring that, bloody good players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or simply decent ones, or average ones, playing as a team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seeing a spore cloud is like seeing an onos - you don't rush it and you don't complain about it blocking your expansion. You cope with it or you go around. You don't "alter" the onos so that marines can shoot it easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Hey team, we're surrounded by spores, and there's absolutely no chance of the lerk letting up...and we can't kill him because he's too fast for us...so we'll just wait in this corner for 15 minutes until he goes onos!"
Where's the rolleyes smiley?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the hypothetical land of hive 3 spore, the first lockdown was guaranteed and sieges will be much harder to stop. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, one hive is almost always locked down. Now, at hive two, would you rather have spore (inneffectual against the turret farm already there) and umbra...or umbra and primal scream?
I know what my choice would be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine win would be much easier to pull off and harder to counter. Too hard? More than likely if you're relying on lerks having to umbra *every* confrontation, regardless of whether or not a vent is nearby to hide in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're doing is you're taking out spore from the equation and replacing it with nothing..as if spore is the only way to do things. What I'm doing is taking out spore, changing the other abilities to better fit the way aliens will be aligned in the game (umbra to help against small bases, small marine excursions at hive 1, umbra and primal scream to help take out set bases at hive 2, and spore + the rest in the end game). Also I add the fact that teamwork is present on servers, they don't seem to be on yours however.
Right now the abilities are so skewed they aren't really greatly helpful for what points the aliens find themselves at in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently the lerk does too. With a spore move, the lerk is stuck in its one role all the way up to third hive. Kind of like a fade but not as fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bollocks! right now the lerk gets used for one thing and one thing alone, sporing marines. Sometimes it may umbra, but they usually revert to spore anyway! The lerk is one of the most one trick ponies in the game right now.
Changing the abilities would mean the lerk can go for taking out small bases (albeit slowly), helping skulk packs, helping onos/fade as it should be doing now, helping any aliens take out built up bases...and at an earlier time than they can right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They'd complain about no way to hold back marines,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to sound like the "omg learn to aim" guys, but for god sake, if you can't find a team on your servers to restrict marines using skulks then you really need to go and find another server. There are PLENTY of ways to hold back marines without spores, they just aren't used because spore is right there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and that it's unrealistic to expect 2-3 skulks be able to stop a team of 8 marines rushing to put up a siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right...and why shyould 2-3 skulks stop a dedicated 8 marine rush to put a siege up? Answer that honestly please, why should a part of skulks a quarter of the size of the marine party it's fighting...REGARDLESS of what it's doing, be able to take those marine groups out?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I'm utterly against the lerk being relegated to support when no other alien has to fill that role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorges might not have rock hard offensive weaponry but they can build very good fortifications. Lerks can't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No other alien needs to, it's the lerks job. A lerk right now should be 75% covering and probably only 25% attacking, but because of the way the abilities are laid out, it's more like 20% supporting and 80% attacking. It's skewed and wrong.
Lerks can't build stuff, but they can protect aliens like no other alien can...people need to start realising this use.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Secondly, the suggestion of going to another class is EXACTLY what the fraghunters will take - and in their case straight to onos, leaving the teamplayers with the work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so the aliens will lose, and people will have to learn to change or keep losing. In the long term it'll help. If you're patient enough to see through to the long term?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But to elaborate on the comparison, the AWP isnt useless in the mid to end game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And to elaborate on this, the original point was that the lerk doesn't need to see the mid-end marine game thanks to its overpowered nature.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perfectly. Earlygame strong, endgame weak. Balanced. Other classes are earlygame ok, endgame ok. Thats balance too. The lerk merely has its balance redistributed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No...read again...is it balanced that a lerk can be so powerful in the early game that it plays a large part in ensuring it never sees a marine end game? Is that fair and balanced?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its certainly not a necessity, though its a good counter to widespread lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol? You say that siege bases shouldn't be able to go up in the only place they work...and that restriction on getting res is fine...yet you also say that the HA train tactic isn't a necessity? It's the only tactic currently available that works against anything other than an awful alien side!
To summerise for the people readin the above post and getting bored...
Necrosis: Lerks are the newbie players class, making them harder to use will mean experianced players have to do all the support Me: If anything that means people will have to learn the game more and thusif anything the standard of play will increase.
Necrosis: Lerks are the only real counter to siege rushes, and to stopping expansion...you expect 2-3 skulks to take out 8 marines making a siege base? Me: No I don't, I expect the entire alien team working together to be able to dismiss 8 marines with the comm behind them, and only that...a siege base shouldn't be able to be countered by 2-3 skulks, nor 1 lerk.
Also, just because lerks may lose the ability to stop expansion, that doesn't mean the old fashioned and reliable way of skulks won't do the job just as well.
Necrosis: Changing the abilities makes the lerk useless. Me: I don't think so...lerk are overpowered at the start, don't have the ability to help take out already built bases at hive two, and at hive three are usually killing the marines off anyway. If anything changing the lerk abilities as I've said will mean its support will help the aliens better at each stage of the game...and will be more balanced.
Necrosis: It's balanced that a lerk is overpowered at the start of the game, but underpowered against marine end games. Me: I can't see how anything can be balanced if its over powered starts contribute so widely to never seeing the marine end games.
The basic gist seems to be that necrosis is of the opinion that if lerks are taken out then the alien team will suffer as newbies try to res hoard..which in my opinion is enough of an incentive to change things, because if players are playing in this way then they need to learn and change so that the standard of play is increased in NS.
Edit: Also, when I posted the above post, Necrosis, I was in a rush to meet some friends...so some of my points may have come accross as a little more cutting or perhaps cynical than they were written as. Please take no offence <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's a good topic. The suggestions in it are well explained, and both parties giving thier opinions have good facts and theories. Look at the number of pages and views to see it's popularity.
I say that because someone was complaining in another topic in this same General Forum about the usefulness (or lack of utility) of the S&I forum. Meaning that even if no ideas from this topic were to be picked up by the dev team, it would still have been a good S&I topic in my opinion.
Okay, now to get back to topic:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perfectly. Earlygame strong, endgame weak. Balanced. Other classes are earlygame ok, endgame ok. Thats balance too. The lerk merely has its balance redistributed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't sense this to be of a very effective balance:
take in example a match between a tank vs a grunt soldier. At the begining, the grunt only has his gun, but if he manages to survive for 30 minutes to this fight, he will be granted super firepower and resistance. From the beginning, the tank has all the odds of wining. And, no surprise, he does win after the first few seconds.
No wonder, no-one will say that there was any kind of balance in this fight: The tank was strong at the begining. The tank won the party as soon as the party began. Even if it would have become rendered useless after the 30th minute because the soldier would have inherited new powers able to crush it. It's as simple as that.
Now, in NS, thanks to the dev' team, thinks are not as drasticaly tragicals as the situation I described above. But still, we have the Lerk. As you said on your own, the Lerk is strong at the begining, but will be rendered useless because of the new suits marines will gain at the end of the game.
But still, the Lerk <i>is</i> *Strong* at the begining.
It's not strong enough to definitively win the game at the begining of the round, like the tank of my example, but still, this doesn't sounds that much right to me.
A way to have balance, in a redistributed issue, would be to have the Lerk weak at the begining then strong at the end, like any other units.
Just imagine skulks have Xenocide as their first hive ability and leap as their 3rd hive ability, and then you may not consider your point being that valid. Still, the skulk would be strong at the begining (Xenocide is really powerful) and yet weak at the end-game (leap doesn't help much).
I know I'm a little bit drastic in my examples, but it's to make things clear, as I know that I have to speak alot (yet I'm no match to you guys <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) in order tell something eventualy very simple... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
but JeeR how would u make lerk weak in the beginning and strong at the end? i say make the lerk a "support class" early game and mabye as u say make it stronger towads the end so people will use it becuase theyll lose thier precious spores at hive 1.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but JeeR how would u make lerk weak in the beginning and strong at the end? i say make the lerk a "support class" early game and mabye as u say make it stronger towads the end so people will use it becuase theyll lose thier precious spores at hive 1. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I think for myself that spore is a pretty powerful feature, whatever it's number in the Hive Abilities. Some think that it's really overpowered as a 1st hive ability.
I'm a regular lerk-player (when I play aliens) and as such, I assume that it wouldn't bother me much to see it becomes a hive 2, or 3 ability. So, the way I see things is, it could be interesting to put:
-Umbra as Hive1 ability -Spores at Hive2 ability -Primal Scream at Hive3 ability
I know that seeing the dev' team put off some of the Lerk's features is pretty unlikely to happen (and I think there's no need for this, unless they find another ability that they think would be better, would replace one, and could be explained in the background/storyline -like some kind of "mutation", or would I say "adaptation" to the human technology for example). Thus a change in the order of the abilities seems, for me, the much acceptable game change. But as Umbra was a 2nd Hive ability, it may appear to be a little bit too strong if we just put it in the 1st Hive slot. So the new Umbra-1st hive ability may have to see it's power a little bit decreased (that's in order to avoid the SUper Skulks rush in early game skulk rushes).
The actual state of Spore is already lethal enough I think, so it may not require to be powered up, as it would become a 2nd hive ability. Most people will think that it's already ok as it is <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> The reason why I don't think it should be put as a third hive ability is because of the fact that Lerks are not just support units, but also guerilla fighters. The spore ability is the soul of their versatility. Without it, they are purely and simply support class units and the way I see it, that wasn't how the Dev team wanted it to be. I think that putting spores at hive 3 will only result in the loss of this particular feature of the Lerk, as at endgames, using spores wouldn't matter anymore -be it for HAs or for the fact that greater alien forms would then be availible, and would much require Umbra and Primal Screaming than Spore).
That's why it doesn't bother me much to see spores at hive1 in the actual game: it may take time for the aliens to organise themselves, to evolve in the appropriate forms and coordinate their attacks. Sporing Lerks would then be the only aliens that may somehow delay the marine's expansion properly, harrasing them, denying them access to areas, buying time for their teamates. But as we can see it in-game, the lerk players rather use this ability to rack kills, to the detriment of their teamplay. They don't harrass, they mass-murder. So here, in this hypothetical case of having spore at hive 2, the harrassment feature is still a valid one, even if there are people to use it in a biased way. But this can only be resolved by having the players change their minds. Changing the game shouldn't be the only way in order to force them to play accordingly to the spirit of NS (that is teamplay) and I trust people will adapt themselves if we give them time to.
Primal Scream is in my opinion already a powerful ability, so it doesn't require very much to be changed in any way.
This way, I think the lerk is better balanced than in it's actual version. - Weaker at the beginning because it cannot over-spore the marines like it actual does (instead it orientates itself toward a better teamplay; otherwise, there won't be a real interest in Lerking at the begining, other than gaining the ability to fly, wich is pretty cool and worthy for it's coolness indeed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->). - Ok in the middle-game because it can really causes the marines to delay their expansion plans; while still being able to give it's teamates assistance with it's 1st hive ability (Umbra in this case). - Powerful in the end-games, because it now has acces to every of it's 3 hive abilities, particularly Primal Scream, wich allow him to dominate it's alien fellows with it's freakin' Howl resounding over the chaos of the final rush on the marine start, accelerating the doom of their foes.
And still, as Lee said, even if at end-games, marines are winning and aliens losing, holding a unique hive; having a player go lerk would still prove to be useful in this case, as instead of having an useless spore as 1st hive ability (useless because marines probably have HAs); they will still be able to provide assistance and change the course of the situation with Umbra at first hive ability.
At least, this is what I think Diablus. So like you say, we encourage the cooperation between lerks and other alien lifeforms at the begining, while still allowing people to get access to the spore ability early enough in game (second hive is usualy built quite quickly) to still benefit of the power of this feature. In anway, the lerk is strong at the end, no matter the combination of abilities, because at hive 3 every abilities become availible <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wwere not saying make it into a heal spraying flying gorge buddy, at hive one I and others would rather use umbra to support our team at a 2 hive lockdown then use spores which are usless agaisnt HA attacks, at least with umbra u can umbra the hive to buy time for ur team, u could umbra the onos devouring the HA's in groups of 3-4 with shotguns and HMG's, overall umbra would make the lerk a support class and at the same time HELP the aliens out by umbraing instead of sporing which as somebody said does weaken the LA's but simply at the same time steals kills from skulks and such
There's nothing wrong with that and it's a perfectly acceptable use of the term "support unit." The lerk doesn't have to be nerfed into a flying gorge just to be a support unit.
--Frahg <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funnily I'm still only hearing nerf from those that are protecting the spore as such a vital support weapon for the team... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The lerk isn't getting nerfed at all, not unless you consider losing the ability to sit around one spot for roughly the first 5-10 minutes of a game sporing constantly without once giving a thought for your team, yet getting the abiliy to actually help your team against HA if you only have one hive, as being a nerf <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
On a public I don't care much for players that aren't playing for the team, that are making the game one sided, or people that don't support me when I, or others with me, need it. The lerk that most people play in NS fills these three traits beautifully. In a clan match I'd imagine players would simply adapt and kick **** just as much.
-Lee
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
All the other aliens need skilled players to get kills. A good skulk can bite people much better then a poor skulk. Fade is probably the most skill needed class in 2.0. And onos, well onos with redemption, is an unstoppable alien, but then of course it doesn't get kills. Onos with regen/celerity, does get kills and does take a skilled person to use.
Thats my arguement, not that they need to fill a supportive role, but they are just too easy to use.
I've read most the posts in this thread and have agreed with Lee in all of his posts, expect his over stress on lerks being a support class. I'm not going to waste time restating what he has said though. I do agree that a lerk shouln't be the killing machine it currently is in 2.0, but this whole, it needs to fill a support role is dumb, and its risen many pointless arguements especially about the gorge.
I will quickly state what the current idea is from lee, considering I believe it is a great one and unless you have time, you probably havent read all his posts.
Move umbra to hive 1
Move primal to hive 2
Move spore to hive 3
I would agree with this. But lee also mentioned that maybe move spore to hive 2. I would completly disagree, this would not solve a thing. Hive 2 is always up fast anyway, and most effective lerks must use a combination of adren/regen, which of course is only acheivable at 2 hives.
In response to a couple of other comments
I believe the relocating in 2.0 is almost crucial with an average rine team. to control res due to the fact that outposts at, lets say doubleres, are easily downable by an early game onos. Don't get me wrong, a good rine team can easily stay at base, then go out res killing. I see that as a very effective strat and when I comm, I use that if I believe the rine team is good enough to handle it.
Thats all
P.S. I would just have to say, I hope you fellas writing the long posts are in debate at your school, You would be great at it.
I've read most the posts in this thread and have agreed with Lee in all of his posts, expect his over stress on lerks being a support class. I'm not going to waste time restating what he has said though. I do agree that a lerk shouln't be the killing machine it currently is in 2.0, but this whole, it needs to fill a support role is dumb, and its risen many pointless arguements especially about the gorge.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, I am beginning to just pass the whole "lerks are for support until the end game" off as merely a matter of taste now, it's evident everyone has their own ideas on what lerks should or should not be...the only people fatally wrong now, imo, are those that reckon that they should be these big hitters from afar.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would agree with this. But lee also mentioned that maybe move spore to hive 2. I would completly disagree, this would not solve a thing. Hive 2 is always up fast anyway, and most effective lerks must use a combination of adren/regen, which of course is only acheivable at 2 hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be perfectly honest, putting spore at hive two was the early stage of the final idea you've sumarised above...I too came to the thinking that spore at hive two would only cause a delay of what we have now, and a weaker umbra to go with it, which doesn't at all help the lerks and WOULD be a nerf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. I would just have to say, I hope you fellas writing the long posts are in debate at your school, You would be great at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm known on various forums I've been on, and in my circle of friends as being the one that is opinionated and someone you probably don't want to get into a debate with unless you have the time <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyway, I'm at uni now so all this disecting and discussing will go down well with any coursework I get this year. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> if NS doesn't screw it up <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Move primal to hive 2
Move spore to hive 3
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As someone who nearly always plays aliens, I'd love that change. Though then spores might have to do some damage to HA again, considering it would be a late-game weapon.
Primal seems underused now, in fact I only recall two games where I saw someone else use it. I use it often when I'm a lerk, and there's a group of onos that needs support. It's the ultimate base crusher (especially when you add a second lerk to umbra). Also effective when supporting fades, gorges, and even other lerks and skulks. This would make the aliens a lot stronger, provided the aliens play like a team.
Healing noone and building pointless, out of the way OCs that neither kill nor deter is IMHO far worse than pinning marines down singlehanded. If the game has gone for ages, then any kill hungry lerk is forced to switch class, usually to onos, leaving only those who dont know how to use a lerk. If they haven't figured out spores don't harm HA then they'll be useless as ANY class.
"why their attack isn't even guerilla like."
It is, though. Spore and run. At hive one its the only guerilla tactic aliens have. Hit and run skulks need healing of some sort. They have to get close and thus by necessity will take 2-3 hits. Gorges aren't guerilla fighters at hive 1. Fades can do a close up version using blink, but its more risky than a lerk. The lerk is a perfect terrorist unit earlygame.
"In 2.0 however (and so probably quite likely in 2.01) the marines can be far too easily waylaid by lerks...nay not plural, singular...A lerk and have it costing them the game."
Mm, but if you split the squad you've a better chance of getting to a location - and if you react to the lerk you can cobble up a new plan. If you send your entire marine team to dbl res (most predictable move in the book) and get killed by a lerk because you.... keep.... rushing.... then to be honest its only what marines deserve. Sadly this is the case in most games. Its a marine based problem - comms ignoring their troops, troops ignoring comms, people insisting they keep rushing the waypoint instead of saying "we can't nail the lerk" and going for another route.
However that is more an issue to do with marines having too much reliance on needing to cap 4 or 5 res points in a map...so I'm not goign to go into lerks involvement here.
"And on the flipside I don't think it's entirely fair that marines can be pinned down so very freely, and should suffer because of lerks being fraghunters."
I dunno, to me that sounds like a case of "people keep putting their head in ovens, so we'll outlaw ovens." If foolish marines (not clever ones who are being held up, we're talking standard pub chimps) keep rushing a lerk over and over, a lerk who they know is in a vent and they cant even shoot.... who do we punish? Even "good" lerk players would sit in the vent and spore the marines - it hampers their mobility, which is excellent team support.
"the trade off here is that I think having primal scream and umbra at your disposal would also help take out those fortified lock downs easier as a team than spore and umbra, yet harder as a bunch of individuals than spore and umbra."
Assuming good intentioned lerk players... which moves all the fraghunters to the other, trickier classes. End result? Team players *have* to go lerk and gorge, because noone else will.
I'll give you a parallel. The gorge is *the* builder. How many totally new players can make effective use of a gorge? How many players will go gorge and put a hive up instead of whining for 3 DCs so they can go onos? Not many, and they'd be ranked as the better teamplayers. I'm almost a permagorge now because NOONE else will do it. If the lerk is given the same role (teamplayers only) then all the decent players end up having to go lerk and gorge, while the former lerk players go "well I want teh killz and pweenz, so I'm saving for Pwnoz". Kharaa team crippled because the good players are forced to take the build/support role.
I concede its conjecture, but its conjecture based on observation. Lerks are good for pointing rambos at and saying "look, busy yourself with sporing things". They don't get in the way of other people, and at endgame the gorge player gets to switch to lerk and use Scream. Thats how my games go on the more team based servers, and its much more enjoyable.
"to build up a adequette base (even hiding from spore while the TF upgrades), you need to be in the spore cloud for more than the 30-35 seconds it'd take to kill you twice over just on that one attack."
Yep, which leads back to my quoted point about marines not designed for rushing hives and sieging. The long build times should clue comms in on the fact that they're not meant for use ahead of the front lines. Both the build time and the lerk effect should say to comms "Hey, if I want to expand, I'd best do it quickly in safe areas, rather than rush a mile from base and expect to build a base right outside the hive."
Relocation - Definitely something for another thread, we've overstretched here as is, hehe.
"which you seem to have agreed with."
Provisionally in places, yes.
Caged -
"turrets (unless they are, as you say, in the main corridor..something else that rarely happens)"
Indeed.... and brings me back to the marine intelligence issue. If the comm can't spot these gaps then really its his fault. If marines rush a hive and take it because we've no OC/MC or defenders, then I blame the team effort (not blowing my own trumpet but I'm a good gorge and only build when I can defend what I build)..... If marines have their base piledrived by any class of alien, its a base defence issue and that sits with the comm.
firing a single round at him every time he pops around to spore...especially with regen. It certainly wouldn't put him so far back the marines could rush him imo.
Giorge OC / Lerk Gas
"The difference is one is able to be countered, the other realy isn't, not at the stages we are talking about."
Not really.... Selfish gorge and his out of the way OCs don't need to be countered, just avoided. Ditto the selfish lerk.
"a bad gorge (in alien terms) is something that is much easier to replace"
A bad gorge is harder to spot, unless you find his massive WoL in some hopeless location... or an OC on top of an RT hole. When you TAB up the teams, you see X gorges, and presume they're doing a good job. You can't check the minimap because their buildings dont show unless you see them.
For lerks, you can see their kills, and you can see their outline and location on the map. Much easier to "case". You can spot him, and thus know that a better lerk is needed. Certainly at earlygame, a bad lerk can do anything he likes, and as long as it involves shooting marines, he's doing his job. Not to the best, but doing it. A bad gorge earlygame can cripple the team much more effectively. No res nodes, dropping unwanted chambers, laming up pointless locations.
"a lone gorge being an idiot with his chambers doesn't do such a thing, just limits his usefulness to one room."
If he picks a room that noone will enter or pass, then he has no usefulness at all. I'm not talking building deterrent OCs, I mean building OCs where you couldn't get killed by them if you tried.
So thats a stack of earlygame res blown, and the bad gorge will STAY gorge, still doing hopeless things, and someone (usually a better player) will have to give up the role he's good at in order to cover for the gorge. Covering for a lerk is much cheaper, and far more temporary than covering for a demented gorge.
"the end game is where the gorge runs in, plops a couple of OC's to draw fire (not building them, just putting them down)"
No, I mean truly hopeless gorges building OCs in hive, faaaaaaaaaaar from the endgame. Res down the plughole. And when you teamsay, he'll say he's building. You won't know what until you walk past him. You've spent 50-100 res on a creature only to find you have zero support because the gorge blew his res on 9 sensory chambers at the third hive. Your endgame rush is stalled until you can cough up enough res to go to gorge and build chambers. With a lerk, you know where he is, you can see what he's doing. Far less damage to the team, and easier to replace in terms of res.
and webbing everywhere so that the aliens have lots of helpless marines. Web is very much (as you have sort of suggested) quite an offensive as well as defensive tool...all third hive abilities should be geared towards quickening the end game like this.
"Too great, and as such the marine game pays for it."
Only if you keep rushing this one lerk over and over.
"having spores at a first hive is illogical on just as many levels as it's logical."
Spores useless at third hive, and if you give them to any other class it'll negatively affect their use. Sporing skulks? Sporing Fade? Sporing gorge? Sporing Onos? Sporing gorge wouldnt be as bad (no mobility tbh) but then he'll just sit at his OC nest chuckling... and it'll discourage him from building.
"overall it nerfs the lerk 0%."
Erm... if it nerfs them at first hive then it'll nerf them overall, imho. To an extent.
"Assuming umbra doesn't do its job and the alien team doesn't work as a team...yes, sieging will be remarkably easy."
Exactly. Who's going to take the umbra role? Its hard enough getting people to gorge some OCs up near hive, let alone ask them to drop it themselves. "Saving for onos, saving for onos" - So all the teamplayers have to take on the burden of another support role. Sure, we don't "have" to, but then we don't have to nerf the lerk either <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"people wonder why marines have it tough?"
IMHO I stopped wondering when I saw a Comm put his two IPs and armory beside satcom vent.... while I bbed them as gorge and a teammate spored them, hehehhe.
"He wouldn't be useless, as long as his team are there."
Which no other class has to deal with. Yes I love teamwork but no the game shouldn't be tilted so that people are forced into it just because they have chosen a certain class.
"I don't think anyone can say such a thing... Lerks right now either spore to help or don't...if they don't skulk rushes happen, if they do, then skulk rushes may still happen."
But if you want to break a turret farm, you'll have to Umbra constantly, and to do so that means adrenaline. Spores break a turret farm before its built, meaning less need for adrenaline. Currently lerks at hive one only need adren if they're going for spore spammage of a base. Since marines usually lockdown one hive, that guarantees you'll face a siege early on in the game, and thus *need* mc first. While I like MC first, I don't like to be forced into my choices by the game.
QUOTE
Its a necessary evil, and balanced classwise with the fact the late game HA marines can laugh in the face of lerks, while every other class can do at least some damage.
"An overly effective ability at hive one that hopes to kill the marines game so they don't get to expand to get HA, or else they are useless when the HA's do come (assuming the HA's are dominating through the hives)."
Makes perfect sense. The marines are meant to work for their res, because well funded marines are hard marines to kill. Thats why every kharaa can cap a res - earlygame res domination. The rines are meant to take a few well held rts before crushing the kharaa. Lerks stop the expansion dead. Skulks can't stop expansion, gorges can't afford the res for OC walls that early (and to be honest WoLs aren't effective at stopping expansion) and fades/onos don't appear early enough. Solution? Lerk. To counter this (basic) strength, they're less offensive endgame. Much like gorges, who have the great strength of building, but (basic) are rather poor offensively.
To move the spore to a middly move only means that ALL early moves would need to be improved to counter the loss of spore. Earlygame, imho, nothing compares to spore in terms of *area denial*. All classes lose their strength to the Lerk..... and at endgame that strength goes back to the other classes. Spore compensates for the limited uses of all other early abilities. Remove spore, and these abilities would need to be improved to retain the balance.
Or we're back to the unstoppable siege rush scenario.
"hive one and basic ability are where things need to be if they're always essential."
IMHO hive one is where early game weapons should be. While I agree in part that at a one hive endgame the lerk is effectively useless.... I would also have to point out that in a one hive endgame, its an alien loss. And thats regardless of what a lerk is doing.
"I think that education is something that shouldn't be needed when a few alterations means that the lerk need not be educated at all."
I disagree totally - I don't think any game/class/weapon should be "altered" so that players are FORCED into things. Especially when the argument is limited to some people not being team players. IMHO thats what you accept when you play online - some people work with the team, some wont. Changing the lerk to force these bad players to use it better will have the effect of forcing them to another class they can abuse.... or hoarding their res entirely. And while the game becomes more and more formulaic (so people are using their classes the "right" way) it becomes more and more dull for the long term players.
Umbra and Spikes
A flying version of acid spit and healspray, imho. Only without the building. And at least the gorge gets bilebomb at hive two... the lerk has to look forward to another support option. Spores at hive two? Virtually no different from spores at hive one, but at the same time it just makes the lerk a flying gorge who can't build.
"I can't see the loss of spores as so detrimental to the early game for aliens. If it IS such a loss, however, I think that says a lot about spore and how stupidly overpowered it is."
It is overpowered, if you charge into it. Its like a portable temporary minefield. A single skulk couldn't do half the job a single lerk can. The lerk keeps marines out of an area, whereas skulks need to be in teams and have to actually get close.
I see a balance of "imbalances". The lerk has the best area denial weapon in the game.... but is physically weak. Other classes can't deny area for that price, but are physically tougher. Earlygame his weapons are potent, lategame they're not - every other class has a much more even spread.
Some would say thats an imbalance, but I see the lerk as living artillery, or mortar unit. Terrifying if approached incorrectly, useless when confronted on the opponent's terms.
this was mosty likely to be intended by the devs, but people selfishly took the idea to spore spam marine bases non stop and then going to hide (regen) in a vent where the average start marine cant get into. so the lerk goes from a "support" class to a deadly whorish class. i assume its the players mabye, not the way the lerk was implimented
Set your sights on its hiding spot, wait for it to poke its head out, and surprise it with a pistol clip to the head.
- 2-3 marine rushes: The marines rush for the Lerk. This one spores them and try to spike the first one to death, thus allowing the buddies of the fallen marine (he will usually die from the combined effects of Spike+spores) to close the distance and shotgun him. This only works for hungry-for-kills lonely Lerks, as most will usually prefer to fly away as soon as they see that there's more than 1-2 marines coming for them; and because teamworking lerks may have spored you in the intention of leading you into an ambush (skulks or anything else that may way for you to get you slain).
- a marine "false" attempt at rush, plus one marine hiding in a spot, in order to appear behind the lerk next time he shows up at his favorite spore-point. This proves to be particularly efficient, assuming the lerk doesn't have Scent of Fear (otherwise he may spot you while you are hiding).
This tactic is pretty much the only one that works almost 100% of the time, although thats mainly because (at least here in the uk) no one puts sensory down first. If sensory was more widely used as a chamber, those lerks would be much much harder to kill, as this tactic would fly out the wnidow.
-Lee
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That scenario is very rare on any decent server, even the ones where new players come on, they still learn they have to heal people quite fast, even if their building is hap-hazard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is, though. Spore and run. At hive one its the only guerilla tactic aliens have. <snip> The lerk is a perfect terrorist unit earlygame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hardly ever spore and run. It's spore and take cover for a second then spore some more. It's a sustained and prolonged attack, not a guerilla one. It is indeed a terrorist unit, but not for its guerilla attack, but merely for it's constant presence for which it is largely out of sight.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you send your entire marine team to dbl res (most predictable move in the book) and get killed by a lerk because you.... keep.... rushing.... then to be honest its only what marines deserve.
However that is more an issue to do with marines having too much reliance on needing to cap 4 or 5 res points in a map...so I'm not goign to go into lerks involvement here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats pretty much my thoughts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If foolish marines (not clever ones who are being held up, we're talking standard pub chimps) keep rushing a lerk over and over, a lerk who they know is in a vent and they cant even shoot.... who do we punish? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a case of punishment. The marines shouldn't be doing what they're doing and the lerks shouldn't be able to do what they're doing.
We could mass educate marines, taking time and taking a lot of effort...but at the end of the day they'd still be effected by lerks and spores even with that greater knowledge.
On the other hand we can make some changes to the lerks, to change his role and, in the process help the marines stop with their futile rushes regardless of lengthy education, and also on the very much plus side, give the marines a little more scope for actually getting out and getting res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Assuming good intentioned lerk players... which moves all the fraghunters to the other, trickier classes. End result? Team players *have* to go lerk and gorge, because noone else will. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that is a bad thing? Currently the real team players either go gorge or save res for onos (after contributing to res building etc) while directing the team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll give you a parallel. The gorge is *the* builder. How many totally new players can make effective use of a gorge? How many players will go gorge and put a hive up instead of whining for 3 DCs so they can go onos? Not many, and they'd be ranked as the better teamplayers. I'm almost a permagorge now because NOONE else will do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experiance it's not that hard...the places I play have enough experianced people that unless it's something like 4am in the morning, there are always at least two people on the side that know what they're doing as gorge besides me. As for the new players, they need to learn, and they do this by watching the real gorge players do what they do...and they learn that it is the effective way to use them.
People new to the game looking at lerks, they just see people sporing and spiking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the lerk is given the same role (teamplayers only) then all the decent players end up having to go lerk and gorge, while the former lerk players go "well I want teh killz and pweenz, so I'm saving for Pwnoz". Kharaa team crippled because the good players are forced to take the build/support role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the short term yes, but much like the gorge, anyone that is new to the game that isn't straight out from CS, or anyone that is simply a good player thats new to the game...they'll see what the gorge AND lerk can do. In the long term more people will learnt he teamplay aspects of the lerk and gorge, giving a broader range of players on the publics that can play the support role aliens, and (given time) kill effectively as skulks/onos as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Both the build time and the lerk effect should say to comms "Hey, if I want to expand, I'd best do it quickly in safe areas, rather than rush a mile from base and expect to build a base right outside the hive."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble with this is intrinsically linked with 2.0 and the beta's however, as the lerk is the over-riding factor in such matters. What use is it to set up a siege point outside an innactive area? Very little considering the amount of res a commander has at his disposal. If you're going to siege, you're going to need teamwork, a bit of res saved, and perseverance.
Now, that tactic is pretty much shot to **** in 2.0+ unless the aliens are clueless to their environment and whats happening (sometimes happens, but less times than it doesn't.)
So whats left for the marines? From all my playing I know that base building is pretty much useless, and I almost always leave phase technology unresearched and unbuilt until I know the game *could* be in the bag. The only two tactics I've seen work are 1) restrict alien res and go straight for the first hive (only works against really bad aliens), and 2) get 3 or 4 res points, defend them for ten minutes...tech up as fast as you can, then HA train.
Infact, the only games that I see marines winning that are longer than 15 minutes (I see almost none less than that) are games where the marines have somehow been able to get enough res to have a HA train on the move, and haven't dawdled.
This is an IMMENSE teamwork effort, it requires excellent communication and constant vigilance on your res points throughout the game...and as such also only works against average or worse alien teams.
Yet it's the only tactic that works, thanks on no small part to how lerks perform against base building...by itself.
If an alien team denies the marines a base as part of teamwork, I think fairplayed to them. However I really find it kind of **** as an alien that some guy can say (when he's a lerk) "there's someone building", and from the other end of the map a few skulks can turn up at this building hive...and there's no-one there, they've all been dying, the only task the skulks have is to take out the meager defences that have been put up in the time that they can.
Now you can have the view that this is the marines fault, but personally I think marines are too limited strategically anyway to have such an overpowering counter for a large portion of the game towards base building too. I don't see it as the marines fault that lerks are present in the game to work against the marines strategies so well...and is it any surprise in this case that the only strategy that really works (on publics we're talking) is HA trains, something lerks can't deal with in their present form.
This is one of the reasons why I'm calling for the change. Lerks overpower marines in expansion and base building, yet can do little against HA trains. For game balance I can see some issues being solved with the changes (hopefully), by letting marines a little more freedom, and just enough fear as HA that lerks with two hives could help out those skulk rushes against them.
No HA train should completely fail to a skulk/lerk rush anyway, not if the HA trainis a good team in itself...but then a good set of basic marines shouldn't be able to deal with three or four onoses rushing them either should they? The parallel is that if the comm hands out a few shotguns and HMG's, there is a chance those 4 onos players could be taken down...if they're not entirely good at working together in the rush...and similarly the lerk giving umbra and primal scream should be able to give a chance at taking down that HA train...but of course only if the HA train is not working together.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not really.... Selfish gorge and his out of the way OCs don't need to be countered, just avoided. Ditto the selfish lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although the former rarely happens (in my experiance) and the latter in ever-present. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A bad gorge earlygame can cripple the team much more effectively. No res nodes, dropping unwanted chambers, laming up pointless locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gorge thing is going slightly off-topic now...but I don't agree with this. I'd agree if it was 1.04, but this is 2.0. Play on any server where there is a base of regular players..say always at least 6 includng yourself (which is pretty much what it is where I play)...and you can always call on them to gorge if things specifically need building. Otherwise your res is yours to spend, and outside of Res Towers, Defence for those towers, Hive buildign and hive defence...there is very little else that *needs* building, and almost all of those can be done by a single gorge. Again though, if res is short, you can usually rely on a skulk to change and do his part.
I've never seen a bad gorge "cripple" a team unless it was to build sensory when the team didn't want sensory (and so they all gave up)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If he picks a room that noone will enter or pass, then he has no usefulness at all. I'm not talking building deterrent OCs, I mean building OCs where you couldn't get killed by them if you tried.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The parallel to that would be a lerk that spores and empty room, or umbra's a random coridoor...not a lerk that spores key points of marine dominance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Covering for a lerk is much cheaper, and far more temporary than covering for a demented gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With a lerk, you know where he is, you can see what he's doing. Far less damage to the team, and easier to replace in terms of res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However the gorge in your example almost never happens and almost never needs to be covered, the lerk however happens all the time. The lerk in the early game is more like the onos in the late game that rushes a base with regen and gets killed in his first go, not to the gorge that hardly ever exists on server.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Too great, and as such the marine game pays for it."
Only if you keep rushing this one lerk over and over.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And even if you don't!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Spores useless at third hive, and if you give them to any other class it'll negatively affect their use. Sporing skulks? Sporing Fade? Sporing gorge? Sporing Onos? Sporing gorge wouldnt be as bad (no mobility tbh) but then he'll just sit at his OC nest chuckling... and it'll discourage him from building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spores shouldn't be on another alien, however spores should be relatively useless at third hive. In the ame circumstances that spores are useless at third hive, so are the following third hive abilities...Web, Charge, Xenocide (in most cases). The only alien that retains useful abilities, no matter what the circumstance, no matter what point the game is at...with all three hives, is the fade...probably a trade off seeming the amount of skill it takes to truely master blink/swiping. Why should spore be any different to the other 3 alien classes that lose the effectiveness of an ability at hive three against HA's?
Not to mention you'd lose that ability anyway as a hive one ability against HA's, and what happens when they roll out and you've just got two hives? One buggered lerk that can only umbra as support. At least with spore at hive three the lerk would still have two effective abilities, plus spore (semi-effective depending on team work of marines).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Erm... if it nerfs them at first hive then it'll nerf them overall, imho. To an extent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It nerfs the alien team at the first hive, yes. But they need it in a way...I still see marines losing more games in 2.01d right now than aliens.
Otherthan that it doesn't nerf the lerk, it just means he needs to be somewhere else doing something else. It nerfs his ability to kill marines, and nerfs his ability to go it alone for the whole map. But for it it gives him better support capability throughout the game and thus more protection by people around him.
Overall I'd expect the lerk to turn out to be neither nerfed nor boosted in its ability...however with its changes I'd also hope that the alien team suffers a slight nerf at the early game, but similarly a bit of a boost nearer the marines end game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So all the teamplayers have to take on the burden of another support role. Sure, we don't "have" to, but then we don't have to nerf the lerk either <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that such a chore? If it means helping the team then I will lerk...it's not a problem for me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Which no other class has to deal with. Yes I love teamwork but no the game shouldn't be tilted so that people are forced into it just because they have chosen a certain class.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gorge on his own won't survive unless he's been able to make up an OC nest, and only on the rare occasion that he's not going to move from that spot will he constantly be safe in the early game. A skulk on his own can't take on 5 marines and win out, a fade on his own can't take on a base of marines and win out, and an onos can't take on a base of marines and win out.
A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, and spike turrets to death, or PG's or whatever. A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, spike a basic marine or two that are getting res and run away (guerilla style). In the same light a skulk can take out a few marines and maybe get away, a skulk can parasite a couple or marines and get away...but to be truely useful in a devestating sense...the skulks need to team up.
A lerk spiking a PG or TF...or a couple or res building marines...they are being useful, but devestatingly useful? No, then they'd need to be with their team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But if you want to break a turret farm, you'll have to Umbra constantly, and to do so that means adrenaline. Spores break a turret farm before its built, meaning less need for adrenaline. Currently lerks at hive one only need adren if they're going for spore spammage of a base. Since marines usually lockdown one hive, that guarantees you'll face a siege early on in the game, and thus *need* mc first. While I like MC first, I don't like to be forced into my choices by the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need adrenaline at all, umbra works for adequettely long enough that unless the marine outpost is stretched over 20 meters, you should be able to regularly umbra the place and not run out of energy. They won't need MC first as standard...and what the Lerk might lack in adrenaline, the skulks and such will gain in regeneration or carapace for the actual taking out of the base, and being fired upon. If sensory goes first then all aliens there will be able to get in on the base closer without being detected, or if the PG is down be able to see when marines are coming to backup and not get caught out.
Just because the lerk is slightly disadvantaged doesn't mean that the other aliens won't be greatly advantaged by chamber choice AND the lerks support.
Aliens shouldn't be able to break a siege base before it's built because of one alien. Bottom line.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Makes perfect sense. The marines are meant to work for their res, because well funded marines are hard marines to kill. Thats why every kharaa can cap a res - earlygame res domination. The rines are meant to take a few well held rts before crushing the kharaa. Lerks stop the expansion dead. Skulks can't stop expansion, gorges can't afford the res for OC walls that early (and to be honest WoLs aren't effective at stopping expansion) and fades/onos don't appear early enough. Solution? Lerk. To counter this (basic) strength, they're less offensive endgame. Much like gorges, who have the great strength of building, but (basic) are rather poor offensively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just plain wrong on so many levels. Sorry. Skulks can very easily stop expansion, if they're alert. Watch clan match demo's, and watch any player with a decent standard...and you'll see that as soon as a res point has gone down for the marines, within 10 seconds a skulk or two will be on top of it and destroying it. The aliens don't need lerks to put the marines down so much, they just need to be more aware of where the marines are putting their res, and to attack it.
This alone can stave off marine res income for long enough that they only research HA when the onoses roll in. They don't need lerks to add to that and completely kill off the marines before the game is even started. For me it doesn't at all make perfect sense for the lerk to be so overpowering against expansion, for me it makes sense that marines are so utterly disadvantaged REGARDLESS of the skill they or their comm possess, thanks to the lerks presence.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To move the spore to a middly move only means that ALL early moves would need to be improved to counter the loss of spore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, aliens would just need to teamwork more. The loss of spore would be game balancing rather than imbalancing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or we're back to the unstoppable siege rush scenario.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which was never unstoppable...aliens just get lazy, obviously.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO hive one is where early game weapons should be. While I agree in part that at a one hive endgame the lerk is effectively useless.... I would also have to point out that in a one hive endgame, its an alien loss. And thats regardless of what a lerk is doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's fairly lost yes..though not entirely. You should still have a large part of a sensory network up, should still have lvl 3 abilities for all three chambers, and res coming through. A marine team facing three hive aliens should lose, but if they're commited and a bit lucky, they can fight back...so should aliens be able to.
Don't you agree some of the most enjoyable games are those with unforseen turn arounds at the dying moments?
However thats just a general game comment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I disagree totally - I don't think any game/class/weapon should be "altered" so that players are FORCED into things. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're already forced into things as the other alien classes, you just don't realise it because you've come to play them and accept them. If lerks had the arrangement of abilities that I have laid out from the beginning of 2.0, people wouldn't complain about being forced into anything, they'd just play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A flying version of acid spit and healspray, imho. Only without the building. And at least the gorge gets bilebomb at hive two... the lerk has to look forward to another support option. Spores at hive two? Virtually no different from spores at hive one, but at the same time it just makes the lerk a flying gorge who can't build.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look, obviously you feel utterly against the lerk not being able to attack. While I would tell you that if you really so desperately want to attack, then go skulk or fade/onos when you have the res...you probably won't listen to that either because you must like the lerk far too much as it is.
Others of us would much prefer to be able to support in the way we see lerks meaning to support from hive one, and see the spores move as a great change. This is the difference, and the debate is really going to be lost in any posts beyond this because ultimately this discussion is coming down to the fact that you don't like the lerk not being so powerful at hive one, or at least that you don't like the idea of the lerk being taken away from the attacking scene, and the fact that I don't like that the lerk is so powerful at hive one and see the lerk as needing a gameplay change to bring it into a more team useful role.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is overpowered, if you charge into it. Its like a portable temporary minefield. A single skulk couldn't do half the job a single lerk can. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even more reason for it to lose spore at hive one imo, and it's certainly not just effective (as I've said many a time) if you charge into it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk keeps marines out of an area, whereas skulks need to be in teams and have to actually get close.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skulks can very easily hide, and pounce on patrolling marines, to great area denial effect. A skulk doesn't need to be running headlong at a marine team all the time, infact they probably shouldn't be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see a balance of "imbalances". The lerk has the best area denial weapon in the game.... but is physically weak. Other classes can't deny area for that price, but are physically tougher. Earlygame his weapons are potent, lategame they're not - every other class has a much more even spread.
Some would say thats an imbalance, but I see the lerk as living artillery, or mortar unit. Terrifying if approached incorrectly, useless when confronted on the opponent's terms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I see the lerk as a living breathing problem...a problem that has deep rooted effects on gameplay balance on a whole and on the alien team. To make a loose and arguably stupid comparison, it is the AWM of NS. It's the weapon that in the right hands (assuming that the other team never get the money to buy one) can simply dominate a game and even ruin it for the opposing team...while in the wrong hands is just a waste for the team. It's imballancing and it's overpowerful.
While I won't get into a CS argument, that game could be resolved in terms of fun and game balance by the simple removal of that weapon...and the alteration to the lerk in NS to remove its ablity to BE that weapon would have the same effect.
Trouble is, it seems that the lerk has gone on as it is for far too long, and just as there are far too many advocateurs of the AWM in CS, there are beginning to be too many people that will fight tooth and nail to keep NS's imbalance in the game too.
Early game it is overpowered...and as such lerks rarely see a marine end game...this is balanced to you?
Every other alien has a spread of abilities that work at the right times adequetely...yet the lerk has an ability that can, on its own, control key areas, stop expansion and kill off any building attempts so that it neve needs its other abilities....this is balanced to you?
I am just utterly confused how anyone can see these prevailent imbalances...coupled with the fact that even marines that try to ignore the lerks they can't kill are affected by them...that marines lose a great deal of fun thanks to having to be affected by spore even if they're not stupid enough to chase one down...are imbalances that somehow deserve to stay in the game because "they deserve an attacking option at hive 1"
I just can't get my head around the logic of it I'm afraid, and I certainly can't see what these opponents terms are.
The lerk does the job of 10 skulks in areas denial and does it with impunity. Even if the commander is smart his marines will face spore clouds in their base. Of course the counter to this is to get res points to build base defenses, of which routes to...or the points themselves will be spored that marines will die before the point is built. If marines want to take any point on the map of importance, there is a vent there and most likely a good lerk will know to be there. Building in these places is impossible without huge res backup from the commander.
If the marines wish for any other tactic than HA trains (which is hard to get off the ground due to lack of decent res flow (see above)), then they need to be building either jump bases to attack hive locations (building or built) or siege bases. These are also impossible to build without massive res backup by the comm, and so can be held off by a SINGLE player for large amounts of time before even the tardiest backup arrives to finish the marines plans fully.
Yet apparantly all that is needed to solve the lerk problem for marines is Marine education? I think that idea is a joke.
As an alien I only 1 out of 10 games see a lerk do something supporting its team...as a skulk I never get umbra'd, the extent of the lerks supportive capabilities in my games seem to be primal scream at the end of yet another win...I go gorge for the fact that aliens are boringly simple to use, and gorge is the only thing you can still do which has a constant use. As a skulk marines are either res starved or severely weakened and are easy prey, and in no small part is this aided by the lerks contribution...boring me to death as a skulk while they rack up kills while they spore enough of a coridoor that...while marines ignore the lerk that they can't kill..they still get so badly hurt in the gas that a quick spiking kills them from the lerk.
Your points are very very valid, necrosis, however I think it's about time we just say that between us we'll have to agree to disagree...because while you obviously aren't going to agree with game balance tweaks and the lerks reattunement in favour of keeping the lerk as this overpowered beast (because you balance this out with the end game weakness it never witnesses), I can't help but see the lerk as an easily solvable problem that only a minority of people will have sulky moments over losing.
-Lee
well you ARE forced to wait 100 resources to go onos, you are FORCED not to use leap until hive 2 and u are also FORCED to put down only 1 chamber per hive, so i dont see why you like natural selection then if you dont like the idea of being FORCED not to be able to do something due to hives becuase everything on aliens is in the early games to be FORCED to deal and use only certain weapons, now i ask you why do u consider moving umbra to hive 1 a nerf? it will certainly nerf the lerk and its spam for kills but it still has spikes, and umbra which definelty is used for support and can have 4-5 skulks stop a HA rush (if no onos fades are around)
Selfish gorge-
"That scenario is very rare on any decent server,"
No, I've seen it on Lunixmonster, and its the only one I *know* to be a decent server. The other servers are great but I don't play regularly enough on them to ascertain the skill of their playerbase. And as for "learn they have to heal people", they don't have to learn. They can potter about the map doing nothing, and the only thing stopping them is being kicked or the threat of being kicked.
"It's hardly ever spore and run. It's spore and take cover"
Which is splitting hairs. They spore, they hide, they spore again. Thats what a textbook hit and run campaign is.
"The marines shouldn't be doing what they're doing and the lerks shouldn't be able to do what they're doing."
So how do we "alter" marines for that not to happen? IMHO we can't - its player attitude and intelligence that stops marines from running into OC nests, or rushing dbl res thinking one shotty will pwn teh big rhino thing. Which I compare to misuse of lerks.
Changing the lerk means even the worst marine comm will be able to rush dbl res (assuming marines capable of aiming). In fact marines would have free reign to rush any location, as long at they kept together. No one unit would be able to stop their expansion, and since marines get a huge advantage once they get res this WILL affect the balance, IMHO negatively.
I don't mind marines doing better, but certainly not at the cost of simplifying the game.
"Team players *have* to go lerk and gorge, because noone else will."
"And that is a bad thing? Currently the real team players either go gore or save res for onos (after contributing to res building etc) while directing the team."
Yes IMHO it is a bad thing, I spend enough games as a permagorge because of woeful players and I'll be damned if I've to spend my entire game as a support class purely because every fraghunter and their mother intends to hoard for Onos. Lerk exists very much as the nub class for aliens. Its an easy entry level kharaa that you can get to grips with. Assuming you're not stupid, you can live forever. While all the nubs pack into that class and learn teamwork, the more experienced players can go fade, gorge, onos if need be. If lerk goes support, then the nubs hoard for fade... discover they CAN'T use fade (come on, its not exactly a forgiving class if you're a mindless fraghunter) and end up saving for lerk. Experienced players end up as second fiddle to the fraghunters. As an alien player, I expect to do my bit for the team and have FUN. I like to go fade. I'm lucky to get close to 50 res on servers where there's little teamwork, and forcing me to go lerk instead of fade not only negatively affects my game, but takes out the fun as I am forced to wipe the bottom of people who quite frankly shouldn't be playing the game.
You may disagree. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I'd wager that if you asked most experience players if they wanted to be forced into going gorge then lerk *only*, in every single game, you'd get a lot of negative answers.
"they do this by watching the real gorge players do what they do...and they learn that it is the effective way to use them."
Nope, I've personally followed a new gorge player to help him out and just watched him place OCs in truly bizarre places. Behind crates. Right beside corners where even an LMG marine can clip the OC and destroy it. Massive OC walls at the exits of hives, sometimes two chambers high and thus impassable to most higher level aliens.
Seasoned bad players. I don't think rearranging the build ability will solve that, so I accept it and educate where I can. Ditto the lerk - some bad players are irredeemable, but that doesnt mean the class gets lobotomised.
"People new to the game looking at lerks, they just see people sporing and spiking."
And where's the education that would help them if they were gorge? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"but much like the gorge, anyone that is new to the game that isn't straight out from CS, or anyone that is simply a good player thats new to the game...they'll see what the gorge AND lerk can do."
The new improved super support lerk. TBH I've seen standard players refuse to go gorge and drop a hive/chambers DESPITE knowing how handy it is. A nerfed lerk means people go onos and order other people to do the support work. Thats not teamwork. Gorges end up doing the monkeywork now, even on good servers. Going gorge is a death sentence because so few other people will pull their finger out and CONTRIBUTE. I've no reason to assume that it will NOT be different for the lerk if its moved to a wholly support role.
And then what's stopping those players learning support now? Lerks, misused as they are, still provide area denial. Its an interesting thing that you can push gorge education as the solution to bad gorges, but that the solution to the lerk is "altering" them, rather than marine/lerk education.
"What use is it to set up a siege point outside an innactive area?"
For one you can get the buildings up. Secondly, inactive does not mean strategically flawed. If you siege a hive on its doorstep, aliens will keep spawning in from all directions and know exactly where the siege is. Take 2 choke points that cut off movement and you're in a better position - aliens have to travel to your base, and its in a well placed position. Its not jammed in a short corridor right outside the hive.
"This is an IMMENSE teamwork effort, it requires excellent communication and constant vigilance on your res points throughout the game...and as such also only works against average or worse alien teams."
And unfortunately teamwork and a clever comm is what marines need. People are stuck in a certain mindset that does not take into account the huge difference between aliens and marines. Starcraft, Dune, etc, all those games involve similar build times and rates of res income. NS is vastly different, and people approach it with the SAME strats expecting it to work.
Base building in obvious areas = bad. Hardly anyone rushes dbl res nodes now, and thats because they've learned the hard way what should have been obvious to see - marines cannot consolidate at the same speed as aliens. Its the same for any location - if you get found, you won't hold it. Case in point, excellent BM game where the marines feinted at one hive before attacking the other. Aliens caught flatfooted, aliens lose. Camping in the most obvious place is only going to get you hassle.
"Lerks overpower marines in expansion and base building, yet can do little against HA trains."
The use, the counter. Lerks designed to stop marines doing massive turret farms, HA designed to counter - something you can only research if you're not building massive pointless turret farms.
"Although the former rarely happens (in my experiance) and the latter in ever-present."
And v.v. I rarely see a selfish lerk, even the most clueless one (what does that scream noise mean?) can still spore an expansion dead.
"Play on any server where there is a base of regular players..say always at least 6 includng yourself"
So we're taking out the new/inexperienced players? The ones who cause the problems? In any case, I've still had "build def chambers" barked at me. If 1.04 was worse then I feel real sorry for whoever gorged back then. Currently, I still see experienced players, even forum members, bark demands rather than contribute.
"the gorge in your example almost never happens and almost never needs to be covered"
You misunderstand. I mean cover their role. As I tried to explain clearly, if I see a gorge or two and then go to fade, thats 50 res down the pipe only to discover the gorge is brainless and has to be replaced (his role covered by me). Worse yet is when i've went onos. At least with a lerk, it'll only cost 30 res to replace - I can get that back relatively quickly. Getting 100 res back so that I can drop a hive and a few chambers takes a lot longer. Make better sense?
"In the ame circumstances that spores are useless at third hive, so are the following third hive abilities...Web, Charge, Xenocide (in most cases)."
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Web, Charge, and Xeno are never useless though. All are effective game enders. Against HA or LA. Spores are restricted to one class, and are all but useless by the time you've a third hive up. Spores won't end a game, but Scream will. IMHO spores are the expansion counter, to make marines more intelligent and devious - a move to third hive/endgame effectively removes that expansion counter.
"HA's, and what happens when they roll out and you've just got two hives? One buggered lerk that can only umbra as support."
Again, the balance intended. Lerks are designed to halt and contain the initial expansion, afterwards they've a support role. Marines are empowered by HA, and rightly so - if every unit could counter every other unit then we'd be playing chess, not NS.
"I still see marines losing more games in 2.01d right now than aliens."
IMHO I'm pointing right at most comms and their continued insistence on doorstep sieges and dbl res nodes.
"Is that such a chore? If it means helping the team then I will lerk...it's not a problem for me."
Covered above, but yes it IS a chore to be support class for the entire game. I enjoy gorge (nothing like a well made defence), I enjoy lerk (endgame support) but most importantly I enjoy the ability to switch to other classes. I am not penalised for my need to work as a team. Under a support gorge+lerk system, I *will* be penalised for wanting teamwork, because the bad players will instantly hoard or worse yet actually try to use fade and end up losing 50 res at a time - before deciding to stick with onos.
QUOTE
Which no other class has to deal with. Yes I love teamwork but no the game shouldn't be tilted so that people are forced into it just because they have chosen a certain class.
A gorge on his own won't survive unless he's been able to make up an OC nest, and only on the rare occasion that he's not going to move from that spot will he constantly be safe in the early game. A skulk on his own can't take on 5 marines and win out, a fade on his own can't take on a base of marines and win out, and an onos can't take on a base of marines and win out.
A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, and spike turrets to death, or PG's or whatever. A lerk can still go out, umbra himself, spike a basic marine or two that are getting res and run away (guerilla style). In the same light a skulk can take out a few marines and maybe get away, a skulk can parasite a couple or marines and get away...but to be truely useful in a devestating sense...the skulks need to team up.
A lerk spiking a PG or TF...or a couple or res building marines...they are being useful, but devestatingly useful? No, then they'd need to be with their team.
QUOTE
But if you want to break a turret farm, you'll have to Umbra constantly, and to do so that means adrenaline. Spores break a turret farm before its built, meaning less need for adrenaline. Currently lerks at hive one only need adren if they're going for spore spammage of a base. Since marines usually lockdown one hive, that guarantees you'll face a siege early on in the game, and thus *need* mc first. While I like MC first, I don't like to be forced into my choices by the game.
"umbra works for adequettely long enough"
Not in my experience. You can drop 2-3 clouds, one of which is the entrance to base/tfac, the other you'll save for your retreat, and the third covers wherever your teammates go. And by doing so you've prevented the ability to spike up a marine/turret.
Compare to three spore clouds which, while not covering the team, will most certainly kill all marines present or force them to retreat. You won't take out the turret farm but you will take out the builders and welders. DC first means less lerk umbra cover, and as good as it is, upgrades will negate this. Marine expansion is still unchecked.
Lerk spores can be deployed from vent, and thus contain expansion without excessive cost. Which is their intended purpose, I believe.
"Just because the lerk is slightly disadvantaged doesn't mean that the other aliens won't be greatly advantaged by chamber choice AND the lerks support."
Other classes would be disadvantaged because without lerk "population control" of marines, aliens will be facing more of them and in better shape.
"Aliens shouldn't be able to break a siege base before it's built because of one alien. Bottom line."
Marines shouldn't be building pointless sieges that can be stopped by a lerk in a vent. My bottom line. Its just like a marine with a GL and JP. He can park in vents and spam gl all over any alien base. He's hard to hit, hell most alien classes can't touch him. Solution? If you can't kill, avoid.
If sieges were used properly, the base would be up and the rines would rush from this safe choke point into a hive. The lerk has the option of gassing/spiking a PG or TF for several minutes, or trying to defend his hive. Currently sieges are placed in silly positions, hence the lerk has an easier choice.
"Watch clan match demo's, and watch any player with a decent standard"
I don't think NS is meant to be an elitist game that can only truly be enjoyed by super skulks. That said, you don't need to be a genius comm to win - just a clever one. Likewise I don't expect NS to be a game that a chimp can play. There has to be a balance. And altering the game to allow flawed strategies to work just seems oddly oddly wrong.
The lerk is the nub alien player. Easy to use, easy to learn. Taking that out means moving new players to another class - and sadly the only other easy to use class is the Onos.
"Not at all, aliens would just need to teamwork more. The loss of spore would be game balancing rather than imbalancing."
Nope, loss of spore = more aggressive rines. More aggressive rines need better players/abilities to counter. Something aliens do not have. Where do the new players go? Skulk? They learn they die to everything rather quickly, and failing that end up having to learn how to ambush, unless they go for option 2. The fade! They learn that fade suxor, shotty kill me one hit. So that leaves.... the Onos! But the only way to get there is to hoard res all game.
Which is interesting, but then what do experienced players have to do? They'll have to go lerk/gorge permanently. Why permanently? Three hives, 9-27 upgrade chambers at hives alone, and who knows how many OCs. What do the bad players learn? That everyone else exists to wipe their nose.
Its not a simple matter of "encouraging" teamwork. We were all new players once, and IMHO no one person, class, or "feature" made me want to work as a team. It was something inherent to me. Likewise when you're on the server, and you try to ask someone who has 80 res to gorge a hive, or chamber upgrades. They just say "but I'm saving for onos" or "well if I die then I can come back as another onos/fade". Such people won't be helped by negative game nerfs. It'll only have the effect of making it a worse game for experienced players.
Sure, clans will have a fun time, but in clans you can say "ok this game you gorge, and you lerk, you onos and you three fade when you can" and switch roles around.... but on pub servers if you're a team player then by necessity you WILL end up having to do all the chores for zero gain. I've played several rounds on servers where two of us were quite literally permagorges.
And it's unfair to force people to have to join a clan just to enjoy a game. It'll kill the influx of new players and means NS is reduced to a bunch of gamers who've been playing it for years, with little to no influx of new players because its "too hard".
"Or we're back to the unstoppable siege rush scenario."
"Which was never unstoppable...aliens just get lazy, obviously."
Counter to expansion is spores. Barring that, bloody good players. On pub servers anyone can spore, tho I very much doubt everyone has the capacity to pween a team of marines. Lets just beat in mind that you're meant to fall back from spores - rushing in as a skulk just gives them something to kill. Seeing a spore cloud is like seeing an onos - you don't rush it and you don't complain about it blocking your expansion. You cope with it or you go around. You don't "alter" the onos so that marines can shoot it easily.
One hive endgame
"You should still have a large part of a sensory network up, should still have lvl 3 abilities for all three chambers, and res coming through."
Doubtful on the sensory network as it's largely a third hive choice. On the offchance the aliens had two hives, lost one, regained it, and lost it again (allowing all three chambers) then thats 35 res for hive, plus 30 for chambers, then another 35 res plus 30 to put down basic sensory. Doesn't leave much for a network, certainly not if the marines have kept the pressure on hive 2 (which is how most of these games end).
In the hypothetical land of hive 3 spore, the first lockdown was guaranteed and sieges will be much harder to stop. Marine win would be much easier to pull off and harder to counter. Too hard? More than likely if you're relying on lerks having to umbra *every* confrontation, regardless of whether or not a vent is nearby to hide in.
"You're already forced into things as the other alien classes, you just don't realise it because you've come to play them and accept them."
No, I'm encouraged into certain things and I certainly DO realise it. As I've pointed out, all other classes have the capacity to switch roles. Currently the lerk does too. With a spore move, the lerk is stuck in its one role all the way up to third hive. Kind of like a fade but not as fun.
"If lerks had the arrangement of abilities that I have laid out from the beginning of 2.0, people wouldn't complain about being forced into anything, they'd just play."
They'd complain about no way to hold back marines, and that it's unrealistic to expect 2-3 skulks be able to stop a team of 8 marines rushing to put up a siege.
"obviously you feel utterly against the lerk not being able to attack. While I would tell you that if you really so desperately want to attack, then go skulk or fade/onos when you have the res."
No, I'm utterly against the lerk being relegated to support when no other alien has to fill that role. Gorges might not have rock hard offensive weaponry but they can build very good fortifications. Lerks can't. Secondly, the suggestion of going to another class is EXACTLY what the fraghunters will take - and in their case straight to onos, leaving the teamplayers with the work.
"..you probably won't listen to that either because you must like the lerk far too much as it is."
Setting aside the perceived personal attack, I have to say that again this is what you'll expect from people who misuse the lerk. They want their kills, and they'll go to onos.
"you don't like the lerk not being so powerful at hive one, or at least that you don't like the idea of the lerk being taken away from the attacking scene"
Its the lerks job. Area denial. Its only powerful because rather than counter it people end up doing quite irrational things, then kicking up a stink because they can't. Our difference, so I initially thought, was that I perceive the lerk in an strong early area denial role, and in ENDGAME its moved to the support of the final push.
Thats its team role, which it does very well, and without it then aliens would need ANOTHER powerful counter to marine expansion, or a general improvement of all classes.
"Skulks can very easily hide, and pounce on patrolling marines, to great area denial effect."
Not in all maps, not in all locations, and not against all marines. Good marines don't fall into skulk ambushes. Marines can also kill skulks very easily, so the area denial is limited to GOOD skulks and BAD marines. A lerk can spore anyone with equal ease, in a wider variety of locations, at range. That is why it is involved in area denial. Because marines can't kill it, and insist on strategies that outright will not work, it is perceived as more overpowered than it really is.
"it is the AWM of NS. It's the weapon that in the right hands (assuming that the other team never get the money to buy one) can simply dominate a game and even ruin it for the opposing team...while in the wrong hands is just a waste for the team. It's imballancing and it's overpowerful."
But to elaborate on the comparison, the AWP isnt useless in the mid to end game.
"Early game it is overpowered...and as such lerks rarely see a marine end game...this is balanced to you?"
Perfectly. Earlygame strong, endgame weak. Balanced. Other classes are earlygame ok, endgame ok. Thats balance too. The lerk merely has its balance redistributed.
Its the same imbalance between the teams. Marines have a weak earlygame, strong lategame. Kharaa have the opposite.
Your post continues with a fine example of what comms should already know and be reacting to. Except the HA train. Its certainly not a necessity, though its a good counter to widespread lerks.
"Your points are very very valid, necrosis, however I think it's about time we just say that between us we'll have to agree to disagree...because while you obviously aren't going to agree with game balance tweaks and the lerks reattunement in favour of keeping the lerk as this overpowered beast (because you balance this out with the end game weakness it never witnesses), I can't help but see the lerk as an easily solvable problem that only a minority of people will have sulky moments over losing."
I on the other hand will say we agree to disagree. We have differing concepts of balance, and it is those concepts that divide us. I would like to think its not an issue of sulking, or huffing, or people demanding the odds are stacked in their favour. IMHO on an educated level it has nothing to do with that. I would like to think that instead we are divided on the Lerk's role, something perhaps that has divided the dev/pt team and has no doubt been around since NS began and will certainly be around at its end.
Thanks for keeping the discussion largely civil (tho we did get a bit heated <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and hopefully someday there'll be a solution to make us both happy.
Diablus - I believe I covered some of your points in the above post. For conciseness I don't think I need to reiterate them here <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't it already nearly the case? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Still, that doesn't really matter, as long as the discussion is good and not heated <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Keep on guys <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Okay End Game Onii tend to be a true annoyance in the end-games, but we already know a way to deal with that that is pretty much effective: the "onos-trap" or set of 5mines dropped on each other at one spot kills an onos instantly. With Redemption or not. It may work in the End, Middle, Early games too by the way.
Plus, there are already alot of topics wich target is to deal with the (Redeeming) Onos issue, so that's why talking about it here, where the "problem" of the lerk is what is discussed is not too much relevant.
We pretty know now that the lerk is helpless facing heavies if he only have a 1st hive ability, that is, spores.
We were trying to get to know what would suit best a lerk, in our opinions, from a rather "pro-alien" point of vue, regarding it's "supportive class" feature.
Hmm...
Still, saying that there are far worse things than lerks is a point of vue...
I consider the lerk like being really deadly in his actual form, and in capacity of changing the balance between the near death of a 3rd hive and it's salvation; or an alien assault being useless, and saying it succeed, because of it's second and third hive abilities.
Lerks are trully not to be understimated, if in the hands of players who know how to use it properly and in a team orientated mind.
Not counting with the fact that lerk costs 30 and can be aquired in about 2 mins, while you need HA which costs ~100 res to get and another 20 per man.
Not counting a lerk can also redeem just as well, while it also moves faster and in 3d.
etc.
lerks come aearly in the game where marines are vulnerable the most. i find nothing wrong with going agasint an onos because usually i know im at lvl 2-3 weapons and usually have a shotgun or another weapon of some sort. lerks on the other hand u have 2 choices with them: ask the commander to waste 10 valuble resources that marines need to start off thier game, and even after u have the shotgun theres no real way u can have a 100% chance of killing the lerk that might even know your comming and will stick to vents
Lets just compare this a second....4 marines are running towards an onos...a *slow* onos, even with celerity...and fires at it. The onos in a fit of stupidity decides to stand his ground. 4 LMG's rip into the onos and it redeems. No-one is hurt, anyone devoured is left where they are. End result? 4 alive marines and one healing onos at a hive faaaar away from the base.
now those same 4 marines fire at a lerk. The lerk has spored the base, the corner of the base, and spores all the way up the corridor as it flies away before marines can catch it.
If the marines are stupid in 11 seconds all four of them will drop dead. If they're sensible they'll find a clean piece of air and sit there with about 40-60hp each...while the lerk gets ready to come back again straight away.
But of course, the onos is the one everyone should fear <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Well personally I've never seen a gorge that does anything more useless than not asking which chamber alien wants before placing it...maybe linux monster isn't as decent as you think <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Changing the lerk means even the worst marine comm will be able to rush dbl res <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all...most double res take overs are done before lerks are available at all...double res take overs are usually relocates and any semi-decent alien team will clear them out with skulks alone.
It's after they're there that thelerk causes the problems for marines...as if the marines fighting off the aliens to relocate isn't reward enough to have a bit of a claim over the base, the lerk then is able to punish the marines for their success. But I digress...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So how do we "alter" marines for that not to happen? IMHO we can't - its player attitude and intelligence that stops marines from running into OC nests, or rushing dbl res thinking one shotty will pwn teh big rhino thing. Which I compare to misuse of lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between this and the lerks effect with spores is that in the example above it takes a dumb marine to get itself into trouble and killed. In the lerks spore case, it takes any marine, regardless of skill, to get effected in some degree. I can't see how at any point you can compare the passive effect a lerk has on marines without them really having made the desision to risk spores, to a marine rushing into known death. The two aren't even slightly the same. It's like comparing someone that does hard drugs to the effect a person doing hard drugs has on his family. One is self inflicted, and one is something that people have to live with because they have no real choice unless the drug taker will have some kind of epiphany.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one unit would be able to stop their expansion, and since marines get a huge advantage once they get res this WILL affect the balance, IMHO negatively.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't how it works, because the lerk is the only unit in the game that gets more effective the bigger the group it faces. If a lerk is sporing one man...well woop, thats great. If it's facing 6 marines, that lerk is having a pay day. Thats 6 marines it's screwing up in one go, and if those marines HAVE to go and secure that res point, and can't see that lerk in the vent for more than a split second, then they will have to take the gas.
This means 6 dead marines, or a good 20 res wasted on med packs.
A lerk is the master of stopping expansion...and this is in my eyes just plain wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't mind marines doing better, but certainly not at the cost of simplifying the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This just boggles my mind. How is taking out the aliens spores at hive 1 simplifying the game? It means the lerk needs to do more things with its team, and the alien team needs to work harder as a team to deny res and stop expansion. For the aliens the game gets a little more complicated.
For marines expansion gets simpler, yes, but dealing with aliens should get more compicated if umbra starts getting used more frequently...and the whole avenue it opens for more tactics available to marines can't make the game any simpler in itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its an easy entry level kharaa that you can get to grips with. Assuming you're not stupid, you can live forever. While all the nubs pack into that class and learn teamwork, the more experienced players can go fade, gorge, onos if need be<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is a shocking statement, I don't see why newbies should be restricted to a class that is simple for them...with little oppertuinity unless they wish to take it to actually learn the game...just so experianced playes get the pick of the other classes? If anything the changes would mean newbie players are forced to learn the game.
Is this a bad thing or should we expect new players to stay "new" for the short term benefits to the experianced players game? Personally, I think people should be more willing to pass on wisdom and lose some games, if it means the community size and skill is increased...I certainly cannot agree to any degree with your resolution to keep the newbies content with their little overpowered class so long as it doesn't cost the game for the experianced guys.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like to go fade. I'm lucky to get close to 50 res on servers where there's little teamwork, and forcing me to go lerk instead of fade not only negatively affects my game, but takes out the fun as I am forced to wipe the bottom of people who quite frankly shouldn't be playing the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds highly elitist <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> You don't HAVE to do anything to "wipe the bottoms of people", you can do whatever you like to have fun in the game, meanwhile other people that are a little different to you will go lerk or learn lerk for the teams benefit.
I don't think this "we're the players of this game, and I don't want to waste my time on newbies" attitude is at all helpful for the game as a whole, and it also doesn't hold any baring or argument as to why lerks shouldn't be changed. If anything it does everything to show that changing the lerks would be a long term benefit to everyone. If there is one alien class where we can "relegate" new players and not bother with them...that needs to be changed anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You may disagree. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I'd wager that if you asked most experience players if they wanted to be forced into going gorge then lerk *only*, in every single game, you'd get a lot of negative answers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No-one would be forced to do anything, if you and your other experianced players don't want to go gorge and lerk, don't go gorge and lerk. In the short time this might mean losses for aliens, in the long term it'll mean everyone knows how to play better and the game will benefit for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nope, I've personally followed a new gorge player to help him out and just watched him place OCs in truly bizarre places. Behind crates. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then that is unfortunate, your experiances are obviously seriously worse than mine, because I can't say I see the problem you're talking about in any of the games I've played.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And where's the education that would help them if they were gorge? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its an interesting thing that you can push gorge education as the solution to bad gorges, but that the solution to the lerk is "altering" them, rather than marine/lerk education.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference is a new gorge needs to learn if he needs to be effective, and as has been said, his problems are obvious to everyone.
A lerk with idiot tendancies goes without being noticed by the alien team for ages, and even then...what are you going to say...excuse me mr lerk, can you come give us some damn support?
A new player that wants to help his team might listen, most will stick to the possibility of frags, and not give the help requested.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Going gorge is a death sentence because so few other people will pull their finger out and CONTRIBUTE. I've no reason to assume that it will NOT be different for the lerk if its moved to a wholly support role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is just wrong...yes if ALL players are frag hunting non-team players...then this happens. I feel you've got a kind of negative outlook on the players of the game, because I can't see this lack of wish to help and support myself. If anything, taking another attacking class and making it more support will help this mentality anyway in the long term.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"What use is it to set up a siege point outside an innactive area?"
For one you can get the buildings up. Secondly, inactive does not mean strategically flawed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines usually get one hive defended without issue, this is easy...it's also usually before ther lerks and aliens are actually trying to deny that area. After that pretty much anywhere marines go they'll be facing a building or built hive, the innactive hives aren't an issue, it's the tactic of sieging a hive being cut off before it begins by one alien that is the issue.
Yes, a team of aliens stopping a siege base going up...seeming the siege base is a big and costly tactic...sure. One alien stopping it? Sorry I can't see the balance in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Camping in the most obvious place is only going to get you hassle.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Base building in obvious areas = bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly we're talking public games, so that should explain for one why the lerk needs to be changed to help marines in these cases.
Secondly it's not like the maps are designed so greatly that marines are able to get near enough to a hive to siege base without being heard. You can go on as much as you like about smart comms and **** like that but it's all bollocks, at the end of the day...if a marine team wishes to use the siege tactic, they need to get bloody close to a hive to do it...and that close means that it's either patrolled or is heard from inside the hive.
You claim the servers you're playing on have so many stupid and non-teamwork players...yet at the same time you talk about how the marines need to pull off these complicated and res costly strategies on public servers? Something doesn't add up here I'm afraid.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And unfortunately teamwork and a clever comm is what marines need. People are stuck in a certain mindset that does not take into account the huge difference between aliens and marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they're not, people are stuck in the fact that marines only have one tactic, and against any decent alien team that one tactic never works. Thats the problem with 2.0, and if changing lerks gives the marines a little more freedom, then where is the problem in this?
Go on all you like about educating marines and such, but at the end of the day the marines are too weak in the game to face aliens head on. Marines in 2.01d have got some nessacery changes to get boosts to allow expansion and collection of res, a couple of changes to things like lerks that so predominantly hamper marines can only end up helping to balance the game.
Screw the whole "oh but then new players might actually have to learn to play the game that = bad!" kind of attitude, these changes in theory will help the game balance in a way that doesn't need everyone to teach everyone else how to play, and take the marines in a direction the devs have obviously already taken in 2.01d.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even the most clueless one (what does that scream noise mean?) can still spore an expansion dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a problem that needs sorting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The use, the counter. Lerks designed to stop marines doing massive turret farms, HA designed to counter - something you can only research if you're not building massive pointless turret farms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But from yuor own writing, without these defenses lerks can run amock and help end the game before HA is viable or possible! t's very much catch 22 for the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So we're taking out the new/inexperienced players? The ones who cause the problems? In any case, I've still had "build def chambers" barked at me. If 1.04 was worse then I feel real sorry for whoever gorged back then. Currently, I still see experienced players, even forum members, bark demands rather than contribute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that will always happen, you either live with it and do it, or tell them you can't and get them to do it.
If they won't do it the aliens will be disadvantaged and those players need to learn how to play the game, if they do do it then the teamis hunky-dory thanks very much.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You misunderstand. I mean cover their role. As I tried to explain clearly, if I see a gorge or two and then go to fade, thats 50 res down the pipe only to discover the gorge is brainless and has to be replaced<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats the way the cookie crumbles some times, and I stand by my previous statement...it hardly ever happens. I do see a few times, maybe a few games out of every 10, the onos and fade players barking orders. No-one expects them to turn back into gorge to do stuff, instead the people still skulks are the ones we turn to. 9 times out of ten someone builds the chambers needed without being barked out, and almost every time I see an onos or fade needing a chamber set or hive needing to be built, some-one else is quite happy to do that.
Maybe you need to get off of your server to ones where they play NS, not "everyone go onos and fade" <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Web, Charge, and Xeno are never useless though. All are effective game enders. Against HA or LA. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Web is useless against HA, the welders rip through the webs as if they weren't there. Charge does no/little damage to people right now, especially HA marines...Xeno does damage but it is easily repaired and there's a while before that skulk can come back and xenocide.
The reality is against HA that the gorges build or heal things, the skulks bite, the onos's devour and gore...and as such lerks should be umbraing, primal screaming.
In the alien makeup this looks weird because to be looking the same as three of the other classes, the largely useless ability against HA should be in the hive three slot. This allows the HA to take out hives and still leave the aliens with abilities to counter them.
However if the game is ending for marines, and aliens are winning, then spores are just the icing on the cake to kill those marines faster. I see most lerks use spore at end games anyway...so why not move spores there, it's not like they'll change anything in alien end games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, the balance intended. Lerks are designed to halt and contain the initial expansion, afterwards they've a support role. Marines are empowered by HA, and rightly so - if every unit could counter every other unit then we'd be playing chess, not NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is not that the lerks can counter the HA's a little with the changes, but the fact that the lerks can't counter ha's at all, like the other aliens can, in the same circumstances as the other aliens. Yet they can do far more damage at the start of the game?
Nah, I'm sorry, that isn't balance...not even in a freaky upside down way you're explaining it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMHO I'm pointing right at most comms and their continued insistence on doorstep sieges and dbl res nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all...not at all. You lay the blame on comms too much...it's not all down to poor comms. Most of the wins you see in 2.0 is not because a good comm is in the seat, it's because there are hopeless aliens in the other team...so stop with this whole "marines need to learn" crap, because it's just not the way it goes down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Covered above, but yes it IS a chore to be support class for the entire game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't do it, let someone else do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Other classes would be disadvantaged because without lerk "population control" of marines, aliens will be facing more of them and in better shape.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Diddums, a good alien team should still be able to deal with them. You seem far too comfortable with the current way of things...are you afraid of taking steps that mean less influence of one player and more need for teamwork? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines shouldn't be building pointless sieges that can be stopped by a lerk in a vent.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ugh, its a very valid tactic for christ sake, there are more tactics than just teching up for HA trains you know? Why should marines be penalised for wanting some strategic diversity in their game? And I'm going to go back to one of the very early arguments here...the lerk needs not be in a vent!
He can just be nicely around the corner, coming up from behind or whatever. If a marine chases it'll be through clouds of spore only to get spiked. This isnt' enough of a distraction for the lerk to mea the clouds dissipate for long enough either.
If a marine or 4 are building a siege base it will always be in a place of danger. While I am quite happy to see a alien team effort to clear that base, I don't see at all how the game is balanced when one player can stop everything before it starts..as you say. Thats not balance...and you need to rethink how you're seeing these things.
You speak as though the way the game runs now is proof that marines shouldn't be able to do half the stuff we're talking about...have you played 1.04? Because from 1.04 a lot of tactics seem to have been lost or severely nerfed. These tactics need to be made viable again so that marines have some diversity. If this means that one poor lerk player has to change the way it plays, so be it. I don't think that the lerks properties needs defending in such ways as "well marines shouldn't be doing this perfectly viable tactic" or "marines shouldn't be going for these perfectly needed places" or "marines should not run out of their base to go and do the task assigned to it, if the lerk has spored everywhere!"
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My bottom line. Its just like a marine with a GL and JP. He can park in vents and spam gl all over any alien base. He's hard to hit, hell most alien classes can't touch him. Solution? If you can't kill, avoid. My bottom line. Its just like a marine with a GL and JP. He can park in vents and spam gl all over any alien base. He's hard to hit, hell most alien classes can't touch him. Solution? If you can't kill, avoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, because you can really avoid Glers? If the guy is spamming one entrance to yuor hive, it's not hard at all to take a GLer down, I've done it enough times. if all entrances are covered by GLers, it's almost impossible to get out of your hive at all...
If you have a stalemate and marines are GL spamming their base entrances, this also means aliens can't get through. Lol, now you say these people need to be avoided? I'm not trying to be insulting here, but that is laughable. I also find it strange that you compare sporing to GL spamming, somethign widely seen as lame and argued against many a time to be nerfed... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently sieges are placed in silly positions, hence the lerk has an easier choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they're not, they're placed as far away from it's short radius to hit the hive as is possible...which all old is very close to the hive entrance. The only useful siege positions ARE risky and somewhat silly. They're a risk and an investment for the comm. This should be shown properly by showing that only adequete team work from an alien team can break it down...not one 30 res alien.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And altering the game to allow flawed strategies to work just seems oddly oddly wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're not flawed strats by any sens of the word...a flawed strategy to me is one alien being able to break a siege rush. The siege rush, the phase rush...they are old and still perfectly viable strategies...they shouldnt' be nerfed to some degree because of some peoples love for lerks spore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk is the nub alien player. Easy to use, easy to learn. Taking that out means moving new players to another class - and sadly the only other easy to use class is the Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Onos is easy to use? Right...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nope, loss of spore = more aggressive rines. More aggressive rines need better players/abilities to counter. Something aliens do not have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they do, play any NS game where lerks don't happen (I've played a few) and they're far more enjoyable games in 2.0. The aliens have to band together and work more...but they're still perfectly able. The loss of the lerk spore wouldn't make aliens super weak, they'd just stop the ability for aliens to count so heavily on one ability. It would also mean that new players need to learn how to use the classes.
Overall your counter arguments to the changes have either been strangely bizarre in light of how 1.0+ was played for marines (with the basic tactics that have to be carried through versions), or have kind of been proof in themselves to proove another point as to why the changes are good (arguing lerks should stay the same so that new players have "their class" whereas the changes would increase the standard of play in the same vein of thought!)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What do the bad players learn? That everyone else exists to wipe their nose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or perhaps that they need to learn the game or their experiances in NS will be greatly varied depending on if those people are present to wipe their noses?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Such people won't be helped by negative game nerfs. It'll only have the effect of making it a worse game for experienced players.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or if you don't look so negatively on the game, more people will learn how to be team players bcause their game experiance will be greatly effected if they don't, and people will get a better standard of play.
People do learn to change...they're having to with the fade, they're having to with jetpacks. They had to with aliens, at the start of 2.0 marines were still winning, then aliens adapted to the changes and took over.
Just because something gets nerfed doesn't mean it's going to just change things for the worse, it means people will adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And it's unfair to force people to have to join a clan just to enjoy a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes it is, and I hardly see lerks used in clan games too. I don't see why I as a marine and an alien shouldn't enjoy my public game just because there is an overpowering factor in the game that could in theory be changed so easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It'll kill the influx of new players and means NS is reduced to a bunch of gamers who've been playing it for years, with little to no influx of new players because its "too hard".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fail to see how it will become "too hard", all it'll do is become a little bit more like 1.04 where there was a little more reliance between the alien team than there is currently. There wasn't a problem then, why should there be a problem now? If the game is drawing new players because of things like the lerk and its overpowered abilities, then thats a bad thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Counter to expansion is spores. Barring that, bloody good players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or simply decent ones, or average ones, playing as a team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seeing a spore cloud is like seeing an onos - you don't rush it and you don't complain about it blocking your expansion. You cope with it or you go around. You don't "alter" the onos so that marines can shoot it easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Hey team, we're surrounded by spores, and there's absolutely no chance of the lerk letting up...and we can't kill him because he's too fast for us...so we'll just wait in this corner for 15 minutes until he goes onos!"
Where's the rolleyes smiley?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the hypothetical land of hive 3 spore, the first lockdown was guaranteed and sieges will be much harder to stop. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, one hive is almost always locked down. Now, at hive two, would you rather have spore (inneffectual against the turret farm already there) and umbra...or umbra and primal scream?
I know what my choice would be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marine win would be much easier to pull off and harder to counter. Too hard? More than likely if you're relying on lerks having to umbra *every* confrontation, regardless of whether or not a vent is nearby to hide in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you're doing is you're taking out spore from the equation and replacing it with nothing..as if spore is the only way to do things. What I'm doing is taking out spore, changing the other abilities to better fit the way aliens will be aligned in the game (umbra to help against small bases, small marine excursions at hive 1, umbra and primal scream to help take out set bases at hive 2, and spore + the rest in the end game). Also I add the fact that teamwork is present on servers, they don't seem to be on yours however.
Right now the abilities are so skewed they aren't really greatly helpful for what points the aliens find themselves at in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Currently the lerk does too. With a spore move, the lerk is stuck in its one role all the way up to third hive. Kind of like a fade but not as fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bollocks! right now the lerk gets used for one thing and one thing alone, sporing marines. Sometimes it may umbra, but they usually revert to spore anyway! The lerk is one of the most one trick ponies in the game right now.
Changing the abilities would mean the lerk can go for taking out small bases (albeit slowly), helping skulk packs, helping onos/fade as it should be doing now, helping any aliens take out built up bases...and at an earlier time than they can right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They'd complain about no way to hold back marines,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to sound like the "omg learn to aim" guys, but for god sake, if you can't find a team on your servers to restrict marines using skulks then you really need to go and find another server. There are PLENTY of ways to hold back marines without spores, they just aren't used because spore is right there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and that it's unrealistic to expect 2-3 skulks be able to stop a team of 8 marines rushing to put up a siege.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right...and why shyould 2-3 skulks stop a dedicated 8 marine rush to put a siege up? Answer that honestly please, why should a part of skulks a quarter of the size of the marine party it's fighting...REGARDLESS of what it's doing, be able to take those marine groups out?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I'm utterly against the lerk being relegated to support when no other alien has to fill that role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorges might not have rock hard offensive weaponry but they can build very good fortifications. Lerks can't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No other alien needs to, it's the lerks job. A lerk right now should be 75% covering and probably only 25% attacking, but because of the way the abilities are laid out, it's more like 20% supporting and 80% attacking. It's skewed and wrong.
Lerks can't build stuff, but they can protect aliens like no other alien can...people need to start realising this use.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Secondly, the suggestion of going to another class is EXACTLY what the fraghunters will take - and in their case straight to onos, leaving the teamplayers with the work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so the aliens will lose, and people will have to learn to change or keep losing. In the long term it'll help. If you're patient enough to see through to the long term?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But to elaborate on the comparison, the AWP isnt useless in the mid to end game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And to elaborate on this, the original point was that the lerk doesn't need to see the mid-end marine game thanks to its overpowered nature.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perfectly. Earlygame strong, endgame weak. Balanced. Other classes are earlygame ok, endgame ok. Thats balance too. The lerk merely has its balance redistributed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No...read again...is it balanced that a lerk can be so powerful in the early game that it plays a large part in ensuring it never sees a marine end game? Is that fair and balanced?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its certainly not a necessity, though its a good counter to widespread lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol? You say that siege bases shouldn't be able to go up in the only place they work...and that restriction on getting res is fine...yet you also say that the HA train tactic isn't a necessity? It's the only tactic currently available that works against anything other than an awful alien side!
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Necrosis: Lerks are the newbie players class, making them harder to use will mean experianced players have to do all the support
Me: If anything that means people will have to learn the game more and thusif anything the standard of play will increase.
Necrosis: Lerks are the only real counter to siege rushes, and to stopping expansion...you expect 2-3 skulks to take out 8 marines making a siege base?
Me: No I don't, I expect the entire alien team working together to be able to dismiss 8 marines with the comm behind them, and only that...a siege base shouldn't be able to be countered by 2-3 skulks, nor 1 lerk.
Also, just because lerks may lose the ability to stop expansion, that doesn't mean the old fashioned and reliable way of skulks won't do the job just as well.
Necrosis: Changing the abilities makes the lerk useless.
Me: I don't think so...lerk are overpowered at the start, don't have the ability to help take out already built bases at hive two, and at hive three are usually killing the marines off anyway. If anything changing the lerk abilities as I've said will mean its support will help the aliens better at each stage of the game...and will be more balanced.
Necrosis: It's balanced that a lerk is overpowered at the start of the game, but underpowered against marine end games.
Me: I can't see how anything can be balanced if its over powered starts contribute so widely to never seeing the marine end games.
The basic gist seems to be that necrosis is of the opinion that if lerks are taken out then the alien team will suffer as newbies try to res hoard..which in my opinion is enough of an incentive to change things, because if players are playing in this way then they need to learn and change so that the standard of play is increased in NS.
Edit: Also, when I posted the above post, Necrosis, I was in a rush to meet some friends...so some of my points may have come accross as a little more cutting or perhaps cynical than they were written as. Please take no offence <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
This topic wasn't posted in the S&I forums.
It's a good topic. The suggestions in it are well explained, and both parties giving thier opinions have good facts and theories.
Look at the number of pages and views to see it's popularity.
I say that because someone was complaining in another topic in this same General Forum about the usefulness (or lack of utility) of the S&I forum.
Meaning that even if no ideas from this topic were to be picked up by the dev team, it would still have been a good S&I topic in my opinion.
Okay, now to get back to topic:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perfectly. Earlygame strong, endgame weak. Balanced. Other classes are earlygame ok, endgame ok. Thats balance too. The lerk merely has its balance redistributed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't sense this to be of a very effective balance:
take in example a match between a tank vs a grunt soldier.
At the begining, the grunt only has his gun, but if he manages to survive for 30 minutes to this fight, he will be granted super firepower and resistance.
From the beginning, the tank has all the odds of wining. And, no surprise, he does win after the first few seconds.
No wonder, no-one will say that there was any kind of balance in this fight:
The tank was strong at the begining.
The tank won the party as soon as the party began.
Even if it would have become rendered useless after the 30th minute because the soldier would have inherited new powers able to crush it.
It's as simple as that.
Now, in NS, thanks to the dev' team, thinks are not as drasticaly tragicals as the situation I described above.
But still, we have the Lerk.
As you said on your own, the Lerk is strong at the begining, but will be rendered useless because of the new suits marines will gain at the end of the game.
But still, the Lerk <i>is</i> *Strong* at the begining.
It's not strong enough to definitively win the game at the begining of the round, like the tank of my example, but still, this doesn't sounds that much right to me.
A way to have balance, in a redistributed issue, would be to have the Lerk weak at the begining then strong at the end, like any other units.
Just imagine skulks have Xenocide as their first hive ability and leap as their 3rd hive ability, and then you may not consider your point being that valid.
Still, the skulk would be strong at the begining (Xenocide is really powerful) and yet weak at the end-game (leap doesn't help much).
I know I'm a little bit drastic in my examples, but it's to make things clear, as I know that I have to speak alot (yet I'm no match to you guys <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) in order tell something eventualy very simple... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, I think for myself that spore is a pretty powerful feature, whatever it's number in the Hive Abilities.
Some think that it's really overpowered as a 1st hive ability.
I'm a regular lerk-player (when I play aliens) and as such, I assume that it wouldn't bother me much to see it becomes a hive 2, or 3 ability.
So, the way I see things is, it could be interesting to put:
-Umbra as Hive1 ability
-Spores at Hive2 ability
-Primal Scream at Hive3 ability
I know that seeing the dev' team put off some of the Lerk's features is pretty unlikely to happen (and I think there's no need for this, unless they find another ability that they think would be better, would replace one, and could be explained in the background/storyline -like some kind of "mutation", or would I say "adaptation" to the human technology for example).
Thus a change in the order of the abilities seems, for me, the much acceptable game change.
But as Umbra was a 2nd Hive ability, it may appear to be a little bit too strong if we just put it in the 1st Hive slot.
So the new Umbra-1st hive ability may have to see it's power a little bit decreased (that's in order to avoid the SUper Skulks rush in early game skulk rushes).
The actual state of Spore is already lethal enough I think, so it may not require to be powered up, as it would become a 2nd hive ability. Most people will think that it's already ok as it is <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The reason why I don't think it should be put as a third hive ability is because of the fact that Lerks are not just support units, but also guerilla fighters.
The spore ability is the soul of their versatility.
Without it, they are purely and simply support class units and the way I see it, that wasn't how the Dev team wanted it to be.
I think that putting spores at hive 3 will only result in the loss of this particular feature of the Lerk, as at endgames, using spores wouldn't matter anymore -be it for HAs or for the fact that greater alien forms would then be availible, and would much require Umbra and Primal Screaming than Spore).
That's why it doesn't bother me much to see spores at hive1 in the actual game: it may take time for the aliens to organise themselves, to evolve in the appropriate forms and coordinate their attacks.
Sporing Lerks would then be the only aliens that may somehow delay the marine's expansion properly, harrasing them, denying them access to areas, buying time for their teamates.
But as we can see it in-game, the lerk players rather use this ability to rack kills, to the detriment of their teamplay. They don't harrass, they mass-murder.
So here, in this hypothetical case of having spore at hive 2, the harrassment feature is still a valid one, even if there are people to use it in a biased way.
But this can only be resolved by having the players change their minds. Changing the game shouldn't be the only way in order to force them to play accordingly to the spirit of NS (that is teamplay) and I trust people will adapt themselves if we give them time to.
Primal Scream is in my opinion already a powerful ability, so it doesn't require very much to be changed in any way.
This way, I think the lerk is better balanced than in it's actual version.
- Weaker at the beginning because it cannot over-spore the marines like it actual does (instead it orientates itself toward a better teamplay; otherwise, there won't be a real interest in Lerking at the begining, other than gaining the ability to fly, wich is pretty cool and worthy for it's coolness indeed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->).
- Ok in the middle-game because it can really causes the marines to delay their expansion plans; while still being able to give it's teamates assistance with it's 1st hive ability (Umbra in this case).
- Powerful in the end-games, because it now has acces to every of it's 3 hive abilities, particularly Primal Scream, wich allow him to dominate it's alien fellows with it's freakin' Howl resounding over the chaos of the final rush on the marine start, accelerating the doom of their foes.
And still, as Lee said, even if at end-games, marines are winning and aliens losing, holding a unique hive; having a player go lerk would still prove to be useful in this case, as instead of having an useless spore as 1st hive ability (useless because marines probably have HAs); they will still be able to provide assistance and change the course of the situation with Umbra at first hive ability.
At least, this is what I think Diablus.
So like you say, we encourage the cooperation between lerks and other alien lifeforms at the begining, while still allowing people to get access to the spore ability early enough in game (second hive is usualy built quite quickly) to still benefit of the power of this feature.
In anway, the lerk is strong at the end, no matter the combination of abilities, because at hive 3 every abilities become availible <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->