i agree with you lee, spores do merly nothing but provide spammage to the marine base causing the commander to wsste vauble res in the early game to keep his men alive trying to build and expand, thus may end up casuing the game to be lost IN THE BEGINNING 2-3 minutes in the game by putting the marines behind the aliens in tech, this sint a support unit its a early end game factor...
<!--QuoteBegin--niaccurshi+Aug 30 2003, 11:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (niaccurshi @ Aug 30 2003, 11:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but while that lerk is NOT gasing (and waiting to spike someone) this gives the commander and the marines time enough to heal, and sort out some kind of defence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so you're wasting time! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> WHAT? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines MUST stick together to win.. this is a well documented fact.
a Gas cloud damages, MANY marines in one spot.. leaving them weak and vulnerable...(possibly dead) this is also well documented.
if a single marine is STOPPING that gas cloud even if he is eventually killed, it SURLEY isnt a waste of time!.. especially as this will assist the team to get those turrets up!..which takes time!
As for a waste of res?... what res?.. a spawned marine that costs nothng, tying up a lerk that costs 30?
the idea of a single marine chasing down a lerk is NOT to kill him!.. its to tie him up, if you kill him, then all he does is respawn. come back, and find another spot.. (even if you could kill him) keep him tied up as long as possible.. alowing the rest of the marines to get on with the job.. after all, this is the only reason why lerks sit there and do bugger all except gas a base, is to get the marines running around like headless chickens that are in turn trying to get rid of him, while the rest of the aliens get on with their job.(setting up res nodes, chambers etc..)
again i reiterate... one marine! saving many marines...
"the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" who said that?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines MUST stick together to win.. this is a well documented fact.
so what your saying is even if the lerks spore spam you have one marine go "chase it down" while the rest stick together in the spores building turrets? and wasting res by having the commander dtop health packs, a marine waiting in spawn que is one less marine the aleins have to worry about b4 ta,knig out structures
Marines MUST stick together to win.. this is a well documented fact.
a Gas cloud damages, MANY marines in one spot.. leaving them weak and vulnerable...(possibly dead) this is also well documented.
if a single marine is STOPPING that gas cloud even if he is eventually killed, it SURLEY isnt a waste of time!.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> While that single (although in your case it was many, + commander backing up) marine is chasing the lerk, time after time running through spore clouds and dying or getting spiked as he runs around a corner...the aliens are not only building res, but a new hive, chambers and boxing the marines in with OC's. It's a waste of time to chase that one lerk as you could much easier get out of the cloud at base another route and expand, take res and hastle alien outposts/res points.
The issue here is though that even if you're ignoring the lerk, he has a dramatic effect on your game as a marine...even though the lerk isn't effectively attacking and trying to take your base...only hastle and harm the marines spawning in it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->especially as this will assist the team to get those turrets up!..which takes time!
As for a waste of res?... what res?.. a spawned marine that costs nothng, tying up a lerk that costs 30?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, it takes FIVE res to go lerk from the game start, thats barely a minute, barely half a minute if they skulk kill a few times before hand. So basically a marine at the start is only tying up a 5 res unit...and thats misleading, because actually what is happening, is the lerk is tying up a useful marine that could be out building or covering a res point.
The lerk also gets 1-3 res for every kill it makes, and usually makes about 1 res every 6-12 seconds from res towers. If only one marine constantly tries to take out that lerk, the marine team are lucky they only lost one marine in the game...but the lerk will gain, for that time of about 3 minutes lets say, something in the range of ...I don't know, off the top of my head, 25-42 res from tying up that one marine for that long + res income? And what about after 8 minutes? thats 7 minutes of lerking, and on a good turn of events, the lerk could probably have 98 res?
What happens if about 3 marines do it? (this is what I usually see). On average those 3 marine fruitlessly chasing the lerk will give that lerk...what...36 res in 3 minutes. Thats three minutes in which the lerk will gain like 15-30 res anyway through res towers, and also three minutes in which roughly hal a marine team has done nothing but die repeatedly to ONE alien...and given him 36 res too! something like a possible 66 res after three minutes if it's doing really well? And you wonder why we see onoses as early as 6-7 minutes into the game?
I don't know if these numbers totally add up (purely off the top of my head, someone feel free to correct them), however regardless of this the sentiment is true...that marines acting together to "put the lerk down and help the marine team" are actually hindering their team.
---
If the marines just ignore him, then the lerk isn't tying ANYONE up, not one marine, not anyone...in my eyes marines shouldn't still be penalised for this. They're penalised for tryign to waste time killing the lerk, this I understand...but why should marines have to go through with two thirds the effectiveness they should have from the start just for doing the best thing you can do against the lerks from a minute into the game? Something DOES need changing with sporing..wether or not it's just making the lerk spore *around* it and not use it as a projectile, or wether it's moving spore to third hive ability...it's (in my opinion) got to be done. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just to clarify, as people seem to not wish to actually *read* any more (then again you are a bush administration american public, so I guess thats to be expected <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)...
The point I make about lerks here is not because I think marines should be let off lightly, not because I don't like getting killed by spores. If I die while building through spores, I just tell someone else to keep building then get on with stuff when I'm alive...spores don't bug me, while the fact it's so hard to actually hit a moving lerk does slgihtly annoy.
My point here is that lerks aren't the support unit they should be...they are until the second hive an attacking unit, and whats more I am seeing more and more lerks these days do nothing but spore and attack. Lerks should not be these sustained assault classes, they should be coupled with building gorges, attacking skulks, onoses and fades going about their business. They shouldn't be sitting on their own just gasing marines with impunity. They should however be aiding the defense of hives and the taking of outposts, the building and destruction of res points.
Hence these posts to highlight how spores, while not terribly unbalanced in themselves, in game cause problems for the marines that they shouldn't have to deal with from a lerk, and for aliens mean that a lot more lerks are not doing the job that they're expected to do.
How can the lerks be right when they were nerfed and changed in 2.0 to make them a support class, yet they're still going around on their own attacking by themselves and with it getting huge rewards?!
A major tweak that would HELP this problem would be to disable projectile spores, and make the spore radius very small, OR, instead of changing the size, make it last as long as umbra: two seconds... currently, the death radius is roughly 2x larger then the size of the cloud itself. You think you're out... and HA HA FOOLED YOU! Furthermore, it's no skill at all to just spray a spore down a hall where they can't even SEE you. Make the lerk have to fly in to spore, so turrets and stuff can shoot him.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lt. Hendrickson+Aug 29 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ Aug 29 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Learn to aim. If my math is correct (as in without acually testing) then it should only take 18 bullets to kill a non cara lerk. With level 3 it only takes 13 Thats not quite a full clip. With hmg or pistol, 9 level 0 or 7 level 3. And hmgs shoot Fast. So those things don't really pack a punch. Just a **** to shoot.
I only lerk other than gorge or skulk. I know from experience death usually goes something like this, ouch ooo aw heal "hah full health again already" instant KASPLAT.
I swear i have voodoo umbra, man the numbers of time in "in umbra" and not a single pistol bullet was stopped. Just unlucky sometimes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Go to <a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php</a> and check the situation for fades. In nearly all cases, a fade can be killed with 1 LMG clip. How often do you see that happen? Sure a higher percentage of that clip must hit a fade than it takes to kill a lerk, but a lerk is much harder to hit.
Lerks do die. I've managed to get killed as a lerk several times. But I have to admit that getting killed in NS is one of my special talents (I once managed to get knifed to death as a redemption onos, beat that!), so maybe it's just me. It certainly is true that lerks tend to last a lot longer than fades, because a fade is big enough and close enough (until hive 3) to hit it.
Marines are long range. This makes lerks, with their big cloudy death farts a total pain in the **** (no pun). You can't do anything about it, because closing to it means spike death.
Aliens are close range. This makes shotguns, with their instant-hit-death to most critters, a total pain in the ****. You can't do anything about it, because you don't have really a single long-range attack that's effective unless your a lerk, and even then, the marines can easilly counter that, whereas you can't counter shotguns.
Tone down spores.
Tone down shotguns.
Each side does NOT need a weapon capable of rendering the player using it immortal to an entire range of atttacks.
(Why is @ss censored? You're allowed to say '@****' on public TV even...)
just got out a game of bast, i spored the marines to death thus having MORE people saying lerks shouldnt be this powerful 2 min nito the game, i spored them so much my team came in when the marines "ignored me and went to atmos" and we won, see how fast a lerk can end a game within 5 minutes or less, and ive also asked a few people if they think lerks are supports, they said no when they go lerk they cant support the aliens besides spam the marines with spores <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Aug 30 2003, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Aug 30 2003, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> just got out a game of bast, i spored the marines to death thus having MORE people saying lerks shouldnt be this powerful 2 min nito the game, i spored them so much my team came in when the marines "ignored me and went to atmos" and we won, see how fast a lerk can end a game within 5 minutes or less, and ive also asked a few people if they think lerks are supports, they said no when they go lerk they cant support the aliens besides spam the marines with spores <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I just said: Lerks are the aliens shotguns:
1) They're cheap and available early game.
2) There's nothing the other team can do about it.
3) It's "drawbacks" only apply in VERY specialized situations, or late-game, when the damage has already been done.
If you nerf spores but DON'T nerf shotguns I'm going to be royally PSISED OFF.
"Do you people know how big a lerk looks when he's just sitting STILL at the end of a corridor, let alone when he's flapping about with half his body apparantly in the cieling?"
"Can I refer you to my above statement that blanket "out of game" statements such as "just aim for his body" really honestly have no place in a critisism of the "in game" lerk prowess."
Do you want to
A) Whine about how you cant kill lerks
B) Learn how to cope with them
I am assuming B.
Hence I point out where to shoot them, and have said that if you cant shoot them, leave them alone. These aren't out of the game statements - they're very valid ingame statements. If you can't hit a Lerk with a GL, don't waste your time. If you can't hit it with an LMG, walk away. I prefer pistols, and I know where to hit them. I have offered those tips as a solution.
People are offering tips to varying degrees, and your response is to claim we all know nothing about the lerk. I'm a lerk player, I know how good a lerk is, and I also know what to do to prevent it.
"In game lerks have a dominant and full impact on the marine game from a minute in, usually the time it takes marines to relocate. If you could please stop with the foolish talk of "well learn to aim" and such, and just think for one minute about how hard it is to hit something like a lerk (it's akin, in my experiance, in trying to hit a fade that is blinking away from you with your pistol), and with the combinations of vent systems, long coridoors, speed of a lerk and evolution upgrades...think about just how long a lerk can stay alive."
Why? Because *some* people are thinking "oh I can kill it with this LMG if I spray its head wildly from an angle where I can't hit the body and then when it doesn't die I'll whine and make a topic about how immortal they are."
People say "aim for the body" because 80% of the time people are aiming for the wings or head. And most of those people will be spraying wildly with LMGs, probably landing 2-3 hits at most. THAT is why lerks live so long. I sit in a vent, noone sees my body, and woo, I'm immortal. If they WALKED AWAY I wouldn't rack up kills.
"how is a support unit a support unit when he is near unbeatable alien that can quite happily take out and severly damage marines at their spawn if he is so inclined, and in the later games absolutely dominate the marines in a killing sense?"
Like a gorge beside OC? Maybe, just maybe, its because all aliens are designed for attacking other things. It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities. And lets not forget that the bulk of a lerks kill count come from marines who DONT KNOW BETTER.
"Why is the support unit sitting on his own firing at marines and not with a group of skulks giving umbra or working with a gorge to protect it more efficiently than a skulk can?"
Because they're all hoarding for onos? Because the lerk is perfectly protected in the vent? Because the marines are fool enough to think they can kill it with LMG? Because the lerk player wants lots of kills from LA marines at their spawn?
"Why is it that sitting on his own dealing gaseous death is actually not only a better tactic for his res whoring self, but also a better tactic for the rest of the team that barely have to do any work to kill the weakened marines marching out of their spawn?"
Because the comm placed his IPs beside a vent? Because the marine team haven't relocated or made a mini base that they can PG to?
"Why is the most effective type of team aid a lerk can give nothing to do with working with the team, and nothing to do with support!?!"
I believe the most effective team aid is psychic scream on any base raid. GG.
Teflon
"Desperate for resources, we headed to the double node room. Began to set up there and were CONSTANTLY spored"
No JPs, no HA? No wonder, really. I think in the entire game there's probably only 2 dbl res rooms that can actually be held. The problem with your loss was that you ran for dbl res. Secondly, even if the lerk hadn't got you, skulks would have. And they didn't need to attack as long as the lerk was there.
Of course, we've no idea where your res was spent. Perhaps you made a massive siege base that cost you all your res. You lost by spending more than you could afford. I don't think its believable to blame your loss on ONE lerk.
" can't even SEE him. He's on the other side of the hallway, WAY FAR AWAY"
Sounds like a description of a siege turret. From both your cases, we see that you reloc, are spotted, and die. The lerks fault for being the first to pick up on it? I suppose if an onos had rushed both spots, this post would be in a "Onos too overpowered" thread.
Back to niac
"Are you even reading this thread? How many games of NS do you play where all the players are evenly spaced from each other and never move? Aiming would be the key if there weren't so many issues with hitting a lerk that is flying, or infact if the lerk was stupid enough to come within 20 meters of a marine"
So lets blame the lerk for taking advantage of marine incompetence. While we're at it, lets say the gorge is overpowered because despite being a builder unit, IT CAN KILL THINGS!! F4 F4!!
A gorge is a builder unit. However, when it has no res, it can kill things. A lerk is a support unit. However, when it has noone to support, it can kill things.
A gorge is big and slow. We counter it by shooting it. It counters by having friends A lerk is small and fast. We counter it by leaving it alone, or getting HA. It counters by running off.
No, the lerk is not support only - but for that matter, NOTHING in the alien team is restricted to ONE role. A fade is hit and run.... but with Cara it can make a reasonable attempt at frontline combat. A gorge is a builder... but with adrenaline or celerity it becomes a great sapper. A lerk is a support unit.... but with adrenaline and gullible marines, its a killing machine.
A lerk doesnt get to marine base at game start. It has to gestate, and it has to get the extra res to make 30. Marines can relocate, weld vents, and if need be put up a turret farm with turrets placed to shoot the vent. If you build your IP in PLAIN VIEW of a vent, you are a fool. You take your chances with a PG outside of base, but to be honest NOTHING should be in a position to get close enough to a PG.
Clever structure placement and educated marines NEGATE a lerk advantage. Hence why so many people say "heres where to shoot them", "run off and leave them alone" or "don't build in vent ridden lerknests".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A lerk is a support unit. However, when it has noone to support, it can kill things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
gorges are building and working 80% of the game, lerks in the beginning has NOTHING to support at ALL until hive 2 (umbra) so that means a lerk is supporting 40% of the game IF they decide to support, im not whining about lerks im just saying they can factor whether the game ends 5 min into the game by spammnig marines with spores so they an build or expand thus having marines whine and F4 and if not f4 skulks come in and end the game, and i dont like short games at all.
nwo i know debates are supposed to have thier arguments, but not flaming, i can already tell this will become a flame war on the lerk lovers and lerk haters so plz, quit the flaming and post something constructive not "U CANT AIM" or GO COMPLAIN CUZ U CANT KILL A LERK!. reasons like those is why threads get locked.
I usually don't bother to mess around with topics like these simply because the people posting in them are either whiners with nothing better to do or fanbois that will defend a given race/weapon/ability to their deaths.
But this topic has sparked my interest... Simply because I for once actually see advice and/or suggestions instead of constant flaming. So for now I will go through some of the suggestions and advice and comment on them:
1) Lerks are too fast, they can't be hit. <i>true, they are fast, but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down. And also, who made it a universal rule that ALL support units should be slow?</i>
2) Lerks should be nerfed to much less hitpoint. <i>Quote from above text: but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down </i>
3) Make spores a 3-hive ability <i>Why do you think Lerks use spores in the beginning of the game? Because they are useless against Heavy Armor which almost always appear sometime in the game. Spikes are essentially useless against HA with welders and HMGs, since what little damage they do is repaired easily and the HMGs will make it imposible to keep up a sustained fire. If you make spores 3rd-hive abilities then they need to affect HA as well... otherwise spores are, in essence, useless.</i>
4) Make the spores a only-works-in-a-short-radius-from-the-Lerk weapon. <i>Good idea, that way they can fly in over the 145 turrets the commander have placed and will still have really big chance of doing anything /sarcasm off. Won't work, if Lerks are to do damage up close, then their hitpoints need to be drastically increased. At the moment, they are too weak for spores to work like that. No Lerk can stay alive if the marines are close enough for a "melee" weapon to work properly.</i>
5) The Lerk is supposed to be a supporting class and not take out entire squads of marines on it's own. <i>And in most games, mobile artillery units are also "support" units and they can, if used BY A CAPABLE PLAYER, decimate entire marine/infantry/whatever legions. So why shouldn't Lerks be able to do the same? Also, since when did ANY Alien player give a sh*t about Umbra, most aliens will ignore it and rush anyway... and since it goes away so quickly and have been so heavily nerfed, even if they do stay inside, it barely puts a dent in the hail of bullets coming their way. So if they can't umbra properly what then? </i>
6) I KNOW THE ANSWER! Switch Primal Scream and Spore around. <i>And how many people will come to the forums and scream NERF NERF NERF, when their base gets overrun by 5 skuls, all super-powerful because of it? Primal Scream is meant for a massive invasion to quickly end a base and/or outpost (or maybe a boring game?), would it be "better" to have a massive invasion of near-invincible skulks right in the beginning of the game?</i>
Now, before you start sceaming at me for being a Lerk-lover then read this: Lerk's are owerpowered, it's obvious. But if they aren't owerpowered in health (relatively low, even with Cara) and if their skills are about as balanced as they get, then what? <b>Their flying speed. </b>
Lower it. Not by much, but make it so they can't move quite as fast in the air. That way, they will be easier to take out since they will be easier to hit and they will have a much harder time escaping from one (or more) vengefull marines and their LMGs. and maybe (just maybe), correct the maps, so ceilings and such won't hide them completely anymore.
Another possible change would be to decrease the size of the gas cloud... make it cover maybe 2/3 of what it does now and let the GAS MODEL ITSELF determine what area you receive damage in. At the moment, marines take damage even when they are well out of the cloud.
Now I have made a calm and friendly post where I tried to give some suggestions and comments on some of the ideas thrown around here. Now you can all go back to the usual standard of these forums, LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!
OK, I had a load of more stuff I wanted to write, but it's almost 3am here and I've forgotten what it was so I'll shut up and go to bed...
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Aug 31 2003, 12:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Aug 31 2003, 12:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do you want to
A) Whine about how you cant kill lerks
B) Learn how to cope with them
I am assuming B.
Hence I point out where to shoot them, and have said that if you cant shoot them, leave them alone. These aren't out of the game statements - they're very valid ingame statements. If you can't hit a Lerk with a GL, don't waste your time. If you can't hit it with an LMG, walk away. I prefer pistols, and I know where to hit them. I have offered those tips as a solution.
People are offering tips to varying degrees, and your response is to claim we all know nothing about the lerk. I'm a lerk player, I know how good a lerk is, and I also know what to do to prevent it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Typical non-discussive subtle inflamatory post. Well done...I must back down because you have called my bluff...I can't aim!
Or whatever, I don't care. I kill enough lerks that are stupid enough to get close, all I know is they are a **** to kill when flying half in the roof a whole coridoor away. The people posting images of shotguns as though they are the answer? How many of you have shotguns with a precise and accurate range of 20-30 meters?
Of course this is all besides the point, because my gripe was never about how fast the lerk was, or how hard it was to hit...I think it works. However I *was* countering all these people that seem to think a lerk is as easy to kill as a gorge.
My responce is to say that tips are not what are needed, as they are besides the point. You can try and make your e-**** look bigger by "giving tips" in the style of "lol learn to aim", but they're not helpful nor accurate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Because *some* people are thinking "oh I can kill it with this LMG if I spray its head wildly from an angle where I can't hit the body and then when it doesn't die I'll whine and make a topic about how immortal they are."
People say "aim for the body" because 80% of the time people are aiming for the wings or head. And most of those people will be spraying wildly with LMGs, probably landing 2-3 hits at most. THAT is why lerks live so long. I sit in a vent, noone sees my body, and woo, I'm immortal. If they WALKED AWAY I wouldn't rack up kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because everyone that has an ounce of sense already knows that you shoot the body, and you shoot it with a pistol fast. No-one is claiming lerks are immoral, just extremely sneaky and hard to kill...this is the way it should be in the circumstances it's hard to kill, no one is doubting that, however claiming that lerks are so easy to kill, as people have on this thread...is something that I just had to put a counter to. Lerks that have been stupid enough to fly into your base will die easily yes, but we don't always face those lerks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like a gorge beside OC? Maybe, just maybe, its because all aliens are designed for attacking other things. It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities. And lets not forget that the bulk of a lerks kill count come from marines who DONT KNOW BETTER.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges these days do build OC's before they build RT's, or build them straight after as protection. This would be a waste of res if not for the fact it does help protect the RT's, but it is a waste of res in the short term none the less, where a gorge could be getting another RT. If the lerk was supporting it of course. The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities, it has spike which is extremely competant at what it does. You can't, however, expect to go alien with any class and have the same ability to attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because they're all hoarding for onos? Because the lerk is perfectly protected in the vent? Because the marines are fool enough to think they can kill it with LMG? Because the lerk player wants lots of kills from LA marines at their spawn?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, exactly, so take away the lerks ability to do that, and voila...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because the comm placed his IPs beside a vent? Because the marine team haven't relocated or made a mini base that they can PG to?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? In the maps where lerking is a problem it doesn't matter *where* you build you're still spore bait.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe the most effective team aid is psychic scream on any base raid. GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's certainly effective, but more effective than tying up stupid marines and sending just about every marine that is spawning out with a third less health than he should have at least? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So lets blame the lerk for taking advantage of marine incompetence. While we're at it, lets say the gorge is overpowered because despite being a builder unit, IT CAN KILL THINGS!! F4 F4!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless of marine competance, a sporing lerk has an effect on the marine team, though as I've said that isn't my beef, it's that the lerk isn't a team player at the first hive. I'm not a marine angry that the lerk is killing me, I'm an alien player annoyed that the support unit I should have is doing bugger all to support me, mostly because the lure of easy kills and a relatively easy game is too much to draw a lerk out of doing anything but sporing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A gorge is a builder unit. However, when it has no res, it can kill things. A lerk is a support unit. However, when it has noone to support, it can kill things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can do it without spores, and as such it can then also be actively seeking to support an alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, the lerk is not support only - but for that matter, NOTHING in the alien team is restricted to ONE role. A fade is hit and run.... but with Cara it can make a reasonable attempt at frontline combat. A gorge is a builder... but with adrenaline or celerity it becomes a great sapper. A lerk is a support unit.... but with adrenaline and gullible marines, its a killing machine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but it's not, as has been said before the spores are too slow for it to be a "killing machine". A gorge is a builder, but can make dents in large buildings, yeah thats right...and it sticks to that. A lerk is a support unit that can also bring pain and death...but...it's not actually doing that. I rarely see a lerk actually supporting anything but itself...so how is it even doing its primary task? This is the issue, I'd say a good three quarters of the time it's just doing its secondary function, because it's available from hive one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A lerk doesnt get to marine base at game start. It has to gestate, and it has to get the extra res to make 30. Marines can relocate, weld vents, and if need be put up a turret farm with turrets placed to shoot the vent. If you build your IP in PLAIN VIEW of a vent, you are a fool. You take your chances with a PG outside of base, but to be honest NOTHING should be in a position to get close enough to a PG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One base rush as a skulk and gestation had me in a vent in the marine base just inside a minute. Build times dictate that as they weren't moving anywhere, I could spore with impunity and get some kills while they did essential building. This happens a lot more than one would obviously think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clever structure placement and educated marines NEGATE a lerk advantage. Hence why so many people say "heres where to shoot them", "run off and leave them alone" or "don't build in vent ridden lerknests".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what? That still leaves a lerk that is trying this time with a little more difficulty (as rarely does a marine team relocate or put a base anywhere where the lerks don't have some kind of getaway or cover) just to kill marines and do little else to support.
<!--QuoteBegin--FireWarrior+Aug 31 2003, 02:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWarrior @ Aug 31 2003, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I usually don't bother to mess around with topics like these simply because the people posting in them are either whiners with nothing better to do or fanbois that will defend a given race/weapon/ability to their deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This much is true. Right now I think the game works with lerks as they are...however as a marine I certainly dislike lerks, and as aliens I dislike their lack of teamwork. I'm not a lerk-lover of lerk-hater as such...just a hater of such imbalance that *is* present, anyone that is not blinkered can see it for what it truely is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Lerks are too fast, they can't be hit. <i>true, they are fast, but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down. And also, who made it a universal rule that ALL support units should be slow?</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't my beef personally, as I said above...the speed isn't an issue in my opinion. But a lot of people decided to come to the thread with this knowledge that lerks are sure-fire dead if you're wielding a shotgun, or "if you shoot at the body" which, while true in certain circumstances, is bollocks in others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Lerks should be nerfed to much less hitpoint. <i>Quote from above text: but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down </i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, the hitpoints aren't an issue here, they're enough to keep it alive adequetely, but it's not their HP which is keeping them alive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) Make spores a 3-hive ability <i>Why do you think Lerks use spores in the beginning of the game? Because they are useless against Heavy Armor which almost always appear sometime in the game. Spikes are essentially useless against HA with welders and HMGs, since what little damage they do is repaired easily and the HMGs will make it imposible to keep up a sustained fire. If you make spores 3rd-hive abilities then they need to affect HA as well... otherwise spores are, in essence, useless.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I still don't agree with this. At three hives if you're winning, spore would be used anyway, at three hives if you're losing, spore shouldn't be used anyway. However the rearrangal of the abilities *would* mean the lerk in the early game has to be more supportive, and in the early game it does not need such sever offensive abilities as spore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) Make the spores a only-works-in-a-short-radius-from-the-Lerk weapon. <i>Good idea, that way they can fly in over the 145 turrets the commander have placed and will still have really big chance of doing anything /sarcasm off. Won't work, if Lerks are to do damage up close, then their hitpoints need to be drastically increased. At the moment, they are too weak for spores to work like that. No Lerk can stay alive if the marines are close enough for a "melee" weapon to work properly.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well it really depends how you're viewing spores...by doing such a change, lerks sporing would not be to attack, but to block off areas (as has been said here before) and to help protect itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5) The Lerk is supposed to be a supporting class and not take out entire squads of marines on it's own. <i>And in most games, mobile artillery units are also "support" units and they can, if used BY A CAPABLE PLAYER, decimate entire marine/infantry/whatever legions. So why shouldn't Lerks be able to do the same? Also, since when did ANY Alien player give a sh*t about Umbra, most aliens will ignore it and rush anyway... and since it goes away so quickly and have been so heavily nerfed, even if they do stay inside, it barely puts a dent in the hail of bullets coming their way. So if they can't umbra properly what then? </i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if anything, in my opinion, that's more of a reason to put umbra at first hive than any. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6) I KNOW THE ANSWER! Switch Primal Scream and Spore around. <i>And how many people will come to the forums and scream NERF NERF NERF, when their base gets overrun by 5 skuls, all super-powerful because of it? Primal Scream is meant for a massive invasion to quickly end a base and/or outpost (or maybe a boring game?), would it be "better" to have a massive invasion of near-invincible skulks right in the beginning of the game?</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably a lot, if the changes are just implimented as said without balance <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Though primal scream shouldn't be a hive one ability...if I've personally suggested that then I've made a serious gramatical error somewhere, appologies if that is the case.
However, primal scream is rarely used as it is, I've seen it used in about 4 games since the release of 2.0, lerks are seemingly more happy to umbra their position and spore...seeming this is how lerks tend to like to spend their times at the end of the game, I don't see why spore only being a hive three ability would be so bad <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, before you start sceaming at me for being a Lerk-lover then read this: Lerk's are owerpowered, it's obvious. But if they aren't owerpowered in health (relatively low, even with Cara) and if their skills are about as balanced as they get, then what? <b>Their flying speed. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I don't know about that, a lerk that is taking off is pretty slow, and if lerks try to fast to fly off, they usually get caught on juts in the cieling. The problem here is that they then dissapear into the ceiling. This is a **** because no matter how much you shout "omg just use a shotgun to pwn those lerkies" or "aim for the body!" there are two fatal things wrong with this advice. One, the range is now pretty great between you and the lerk, and Two, how can you shoot at a body you can't see?
Maybe if this clipping problem was rectified, so that people knew exactly where they were shooting, it'd help balance the lerks out without having to do anything more drastic to them...I don't know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lower it. Not by much, but make it so they can't move quite as fast in the air. That way, they will be easier to take out since they will be easier to hit and they will have a much harder time escaping from one (or more) vengefull marines and their LMGs. and maybe (just maybe), correct the maps, so ceilings and such won't hide them completely anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, I read through as I reply to a post, but yeah, I reitteratre your ceiling point. I'm still not sure that lerks need a speed nerf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another possible change would be to decrease the size of the gas cloud... make it cover maybe 2/3 of what it does now and let the GAS MODEL ITSELF determine what area you receive damage in. At the moment, marines take damage even when they are well out of the cloud.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They do? I've never tested this myself, bit of a **** if it's right! I don't know about decreasing the spore cloud size, I'd personally say the best "simple" way to nerf spores would be to make it cost a lot more energy than it currently does. All round though it would probably have the same effect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now I have made a calm and friendly post where I tried to give some suggestions and comments on some of the ideas thrown around here. Now you can all go back to the usual standard of these forums, LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, this is the sort of post that I would hope would be made, not one of the condescending ones that tend to get posted in such threads that insult peoples intelligence merely because their pet alien/weapon is being criticised.
Well, I think I can be considered a skulk and lerk fanboy, since I will mostly play those alien classes when I join aliens.
Still, the reasons why i like the skulk is it's speed: when you rush as a skulk, you *really* make a <i>rush</i>! The same nearly goes for the Lerk. But I prefer the lerk over the skulk because of it's support ability.
When I decide to go Lerk at the beginning of a game (truly, you only need one or two marine start rushes as a skulk to get the needed rez) I'm most likely to be seen haning around a gorge to provide him the best protection that I can: Sporing the nearby corridors to prevent marines coming around and screwing my fellow fattie's work before he may be done with his task.
It works mostly well, since marines are hesitating a bit before rushing in the cloud, and it's particularly effective when we have a skulk or two to finish the daring marines who come to kill the Lerk (me).
If there's no gorges, I'll follow a pack of skulks or a Fade in order to assist them/him in their/his rush/hit-and-run. I've been wondering in vents near marine bases from time to time, but it quickly gets boring, and all I wait for, is to discover that one of my teamates has gestated into something like a gorge/fade/onos in order to get back to him and provide him assistance.
The reason why I keep on evolving into the Lerk form in mid-late games are the fact that secondary and third hive abilities are usually enabled by then and it helps me provide better assistance to my buddies. You'll then see me most likely behind the one or two onii that are charging the base, giving them continual Umbra Coverage (with Adrenaline) and Primal Screaming from time to time for convenience, if their destructive task takes too long. I don't bother sporing anymore, or just for the color of the cloud bonus, since spores wont have the time to really affect any marines, because my fellows onii are mass murdering anything that wears boots in the sector.
I trully play like that.
So,in my opinion, there's no reason for nerfing anything, but the mentality of the Lerk players who keep on sporing again and again and again even if the marine team is all set up in Heavy tights (gas-mask helmets included).
It's not much a question of changing anything in the game, but a question of having the gamers play in another fashion. But hey! You pick up your own style and that's it! Nobody can blame you because you wear panties on your head (unless they are really ugly ones maybe)...or well maybe it was a bad example, still, then, nobody can blame you to maliciously over-use the spore ability. Or they can blame, but it's all they can.
If your playing style is to use your support unit for mass-murdering purpose, then I don't know what I can do to stop you without fooling with your liberty. My style is to help people building things or ruining others. If you think that I waste my time because hanging in a vent spreading gaz clouds for decades is your idea of fun, then we just don't share the same idea of what "fun" is. That's it. Enjoy yourself, and let me enjoy myslef my own way.
Inverting the order of the abilities wont change anything IMO, there will always be a few people to find the little pesky tricky thing that will make others cry in despair and horror.
You talk about lerks being annoying, what about a turret farm of 20 turrets, which took about 30 minutes to destroy after we absolutely flattened the marines down to one resource tower. Lerks are great fun to play, gassing the marines to death at their spawn is a rewarding experience when they do nothing but place turret after turret <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--JeeR+Aug 31 2003, 12:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JeeR @ Aug 31 2003, 12:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, I think I can be considered a skulk and lerk fanboy, since I will mostly play those alien classes when I join aliens.
<snip>
When I decide to go Lerk at the beginning of a game (truly, you only need one or two marine start rushes as a skulk to get the needed rez) I'm most likely to be seen haning around a gorge to provide him the best protection that I can: Sporing the nearby corridors to prevent marines coming around and screwing my fellow fattie's work before he may be done with his task.
<snip>
If there's no gorges, I'll follow a pack of skulks or a Fade in order to assist them/him in their/his rush/hit-and-run. I've been wondering in vents near marine bases from time to time, but it quickly gets boring, and all I wait for, is to discover that one of my teamates has gestated into something like a gorge/fade/onos in order to get back to him and provide him assistance.
The reason why I keep on evolving into the Lerk form in mid-late games are the fact that secondary and third hive abilities are usually enabled by then and it helps me provide better assistance to my buddies. You'll then see me most likely behind the one or two onii that are charging the base, giving them continual Umbra Coverage (with Adrenaline) and Primal Screaming from time to time for convenience, if their destructive task takes too long.
I don't bother sporing anymore, or just for the color of the cloud bonus, since spores wont have the time to really affect any marines, because my fellows onii are mass murdering anything that wears boots in the sector.
I trully play like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Excellent <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> you're playing it how (at least I think) you should be playing a lerk, and no doubt a lot of aliens are left alive instead of dead because of the support you give.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So,in my opinion, there's no reason for nerfing anything, but the mentality of the Lerk players who keep on sporing again and again and again even if the marine team is all set up in Heavy tights (gas-mask helmets included).
It's not much a question of changing anything in the game, but a question of having the gamers play in another fashion. But hey! You pick up your own style and that's it! Nobody can blame you because you wear panties on your head (unless they are really ugly ones maybe)...or well maybe it was a bad example, still, then, nobody can blame you to maliciously over-use the spore ability. Or they can blame, but it's all they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this is the issue at hand, how do you get the lerks that are being useless to their team yet somehow at the same time quite powerful, to stop doing such acts...and start supporting the team in the first hive?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Inverting the order of the abilities wont change anything IMO, there will always be a few people to find the little pesky tricky thing that will make others cry in despair and horror.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, though it is my opinion that if those others are crying in dispair and horror because they were taken by a good team working alien force, then it is at least a good tactical part of the game...whereas now the cries of dispair and horror are just because the lerk has some issues that a fair few people seem to think need addressing.
Again though, well done for playing the lerk that way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--RoCkIn RiCkY+Aug 31 2003, 12:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RoCkIn RiCkY @ Aug 31 2003, 12:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You talk about lerks being annoying, what about a turret farm of 20 turrets, which took about 30 minutes to destroy after we absolutely flattened the marines down to one resource tower. Lerks are great fun to play, gassing the marines to death at their spawn is a rewarding experience when they do nothing but place turret after turret <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it's besides the point, but seeming a lerk can be in the base within a minute and a half quite happily, you won't be gassing marines that are turret farming their base, you'll be gassing marines that are building their obs, getting their first few rounds of ammo from the armoury and building an arms lab.
But as I said, this is besides the point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> This thread isn't about balancing turret farms, and spores don't do that anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ack, far too much quoting... oke short post in the midst of all
Heh, right, I think the reason lerks are less support and more solo hunting is the combination of their mobility and their semi-indirect fire long range weapons. A cautious lerk could go for ages without being killed, since it doesn't need to get into the midst of the marines to melee (fade/skulk style) and the time any sort of fire at all comes in it's direction it has the option to cut and run.
So perhaps instead of baying for spores to be nerfed mobility could be considered instead, that would force them to be more support or at least work with backup, sincea single lerk who couldn't run from the rines when they charge it is pretty likely to die, it wouldn't be a drastic nerf but could certainly make them alittle more manageable...
By reducing mobility I mean something along the lines of reducing the max flight-speed to the same as walking for lerks (maybe hard to do code wise, dunno at all) and/or reducing the acceleration of each wing-flap dramatically, so gliding is used more and changing directions and accelerating away is much harder... both together could make the lerk need backup or face being caught and having the marines pull his wings off (cos they do hate the spores that much <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
[Edit] - vents are still hell, but that counts for every single alien class (okes not the big boy) against the marines untill GLs, so you'll just have to live with that
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited August 2003
Some good points made here. My opinion as a Lerk player and a marine:
a) Regen is perhaps a little fast acting.
b) Turrets don't care about Gas and have very good accuracy.
c) HMG is the best Lerk counter due to its deadliness at range, useful but not pointless spread and high cyclic fire capacity. However, everyone brings shotguns to the party now.
d) Jetpacks allow people to pursue and slay Lerks, not that you see them outside of clan matches.
e) HA ignores spore clouds.
Since b) is only useful for outpost defence and c) through e) are not relevant to the opening game, it would appear that a) is the main issue. A carapaced Lerk is only dangerous with Gorge or DC support. A Redemption Lerk is usually only combat worthy for 3/100ths of a second without the same. Since both gorges and DCs are relatively weak units, it is reasonable to expect that either marines will kill the offending DC/Gorge or die like the nubs they are.
Regen is, however, a devastatingly useful ability with Lerks and since the only way to deal with it is to kill DCs (a tactic almost no one tries, despite the relative financial hassle of building chambers in 2.01d). Once you couple this with umbra, the only way to kill Lerks is with a grenade, a knife or if the Lerk gets careless.
Personally for me it's always adrenaline/regen/Sof.
I don't know if I agree about regen however, as it's pretty slow as it is...slow enough for the bigger aliens anyway...nerfing it for lerks would really nerf it for onos, for example.
I'm still not sure about the mobility thing...but then again I cant see how it'd be handled if it was updated. As long as the mobility wasn't taken from lerks significantly it could work I suppose...but it must still be a maneuvourable unit...very much so.
Whenever I read niaccurshi's posts I get this tender warm feeling inside <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again though, well done for playing the lerk that way <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And sorry DroopyDaDog for quoting without any sense of measure, but it helps targeting to what you're exactly replying, and thus give precise answers... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Still, even if Lerks had to be nerfed/ability swaped, I think that I would still like them, as long as they are Lerks i.e: the fast flying little imp who assumes such assistance traits.
NS is mostly about teamwork. Since most of our players may come from games/mods like DoD or CS, I can understand that the "last-man-standing-lone-wolf-high-on-the-kills-score-board" way of making things still impregnate them. But if they come to NS, it's most probably to try something new: a cooperation-is-the-key mod, since that must be NS' reputation in other gamers communities. Thus, they should try to change their Hunt-For-Kills habits and try to Adapt themselves (lol, that's Natural in a game called Natural Selection^^). If a CSer for example plays a lerk like he was in CS ("I mostly go for kills, peeps!"), I just can say that it must be because of his CSer habits. But at a time or another, he should try to change his mind and adapt himself to a more cooperative way of playing the game. Change of Mentality is the key to the issue of over-sporing Lerks (and to some other issues btw), still IMO.
It looks like very simple said that way, but the problem lies in the fact that you can't force people to change their habits, even if we are talking about "bad" habits. All you can do is telling them that... <i>Beeeeyonnnd, There's So much more!</i>
That the <i>Truth</i> lies somewhere else... <i>in a galaxy far far away</i> from individual-oriented mods... a place called NS where being a flying gas-machine isn't the only way of doing things... Or that's what <i>I Want To Believe</i> at least <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Eventualy, people like that will get tired of their mass-gazing habit, like nearly everything, and then maybe they will turn themselves toward a better cooperation gameplay.
Oh! In order to try encourage people becoming more supportive: Recently I discovered a "new" feature (new to me): We were there, two lerks following some cute fattie. After dropping some OCs and DCs near a recently acquired Rez node, he suddenly turns toward the other lerk and says: "Ok! Let's move to dblrez (there was a marine outpost there) and play dah madz bomberz again!" And the Lerk managed to take the gorge with it's claws and lift him!!
Well, maybe this is a well known possibility, but it was the first time I had seen such a thing in days and days of playtime! Soon after that, as I was following them, I saw what they meant by "play dah madz bomberz": the Lerk was flying toward the ceiling of doublerez while still holding the gorge, and the gorge taking advantage of the Lerk's "maniability" and speed, bile-bombed the marine's base properly!
It was a really funny thing to see! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> And some marines were all "WTH!?" so I think I wasnt the only one amazed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Shortly after that, I gave it a try and we were two " mad flying bomberz" happily taking our passengers toward the outpost! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Well, that was one of my best moments ever in my NS parties <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Of course, this requires a bit of teamwork and coordination, but, heh! That's what NS is all about, right? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lerk Fanboys, just try this out, at least once in your life, and you may understand why I keep on saying that gorges are lerk's best friends (well, they are every aliens' best friends of course) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>Edit: Oh! About the mobility issue... well since one of the things I enjoy most about the Lerk is it's speed -and thus mobility, I had to say that this would not be my favourite way of handling the problem, but that's very personal... Also, lol, Lee, we go for the same upgrades combo as Lerks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I assume it's the choice of alot people btw...</i>
Yeah Jeer, I don't think you're doing the lerk justice if you go for any other upgrades. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I also agree about the mobility issue.
Maybe I've been a little too hasty with my pro-change stance, maybe all it'll take to sort out some lerk issues is to sort out the whole ceiling thing...I'm sure that if that was fixed then it'd be a lot easier to gague how effective a lerk is when people can see his body to shoot it.
How about you removed lerks completely and put in a scorpion the hovers without flapping? LOL Lerks are fine as they are but it would help if the lerks collision box was raised so they didn't dissapear into the celling 'cos that does get annoying but the lerk player can't help it.
I can kill about 75% of lerks i come across even if it means knifing their *** out of the air.
LMGs kill lerks dead after 18 shots with 0 armor left. Pistols kill lerks dead after 9 shots with 0 armor left. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> ty <a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php</a> very useful if you are bored
Learn to shoot moving targets and you will have no problems.
When I join marines and have to deal with Lerks, most of my hard times come from when the Lerk "disapear" in the ceiling and is thus rendered <i>nearly</i> un-fragable. Ok, so it may give you time to close in the distance if he stays stationary, but assuming he may have seen you come in, or even not, he will probably ensure his longevity by flapping a little backward... And then manage to spike you to death...
I remember that once we had to deal with a Lerk hiding in a corridor near marine spawn (can't remember the map very well, maybe hera). As most of the marines were just leaving to their WPs after spawning back (which is a good thing) I just said to one of my fellow squadmate: "Hey! next time we respawn, if the lerk is still there, we go and kill him. I'll go first and shield you till we get close enough and then you kill him" He agreed. After respawning, It took us two trips to kill the Lerk. I dont know if it was chance, but maybe this can be a way to disable a Lerk, as long as someone is ok about shielding. But here again, it's just teamworking, and I think that's fair enough, don't you?
And I have to add that this won't properly work if the Lerk has a backup unit like a Fade or else, but we are talking about a RfK Lerk here, the one kind that prevails lone sieging than cooperating with his teamates. Also, dont try this technique unless you are a vanilla marine, because every equipment that's not the one you get at respawn is a valuable items (so dont do it in vents, since you cant get ther without a JP <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but while that lerk is NOT gasing (and waiting to spike someone) this gives the commander and the marines time enough to heal, and sort out some kind of defence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so you're wasting time! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT? <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines MUST stick together to win.. this is a well documented fact.
a Gas cloud damages, MANY marines in one spot.. leaving them weak and vulnerable...(possibly dead) this is also well documented.
if a single marine is STOPPING that gas cloud even if he is eventually killed, it SURLEY isnt a waste of time!.. especially as this will assist the team to get those turrets up!..which takes time!
As for a waste of res?... what res?.. a spawned marine that costs nothng, tying up a lerk that costs 30?
the idea of a single marine chasing down a lerk is NOT to kill him!.. its to tie him up, if you kill him, then all he does is respawn. come back, and find another spot.. (even if you could kill him)
keep him tied up as long as possible.. alowing the rest of the marines to get on with the job.. after all, this is the only reason why lerks sit there and do bugger all except gas a base, is to get the marines running around like headless chickens that are in turn trying to get rid of him, while the rest of the aliens get on with their job.(setting up res nodes, chambers etc..)
again i reiterate... one marine! saving many marines...
"the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few"
who said that?
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
many time
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so what your saying is even if the lerks spore spam you have one marine go "chase it down" while the rest stick together in the spores building turrets? and wasting res by having the commander dtop health packs, a marine waiting in spawn que is one less marine the aleins have to worry about b4 ta,knig out structures
Marines MUST stick together to win.. this is a well documented fact.
a Gas cloud damages, MANY marines in one spot.. leaving them weak and vulnerable...(possibly dead) this is also well documented.
if a single marine is STOPPING that gas cloud even if he is eventually killed, it SURLEY isnt a waste of time!.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
While that single (although in your case it was many, + commander backing up) marine is chasing the lerk, time after time running through spore clouds and dying or getting spiked as he runs around a corner...the aliens are not only building res, but a new hive, chambers and boxing the marines in with OC's. It's a waste of time to chase that one lerk as you could much easier get out of the cloud at base another route and expand, take res and hastle alien outposts/res points.
The issue here is though that even if you're ignoring the lerk, he has a dramatic effect on your game as a marine...even though the lerk isn't effectively attacking and trying to take your base...only hastle and harm the marines spawning in it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->especially as this will assist the team to get those turrets up!..which takes time!
As for a waste of res?... what res?.. a spawned marine that costs nothng, tying up a lerk that costs 30?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, it takes FIVE res to go lerk from the game start, thats barely a minute, barely half a minute if they skulk kill a few times before hand. So basically a marine at the start is only tying up a 5 res unit...and thats misleading, because actually what is happening, is the lerk is tying up a useful marine that could be out building or covering a res point.
The lerk also gets 1-3 res for every kill it makes, and usually makes about 1 res every 6-12 seconds from res towers. If only one marine constantly tries to take out that lerk, the marine team are lucky they only lost one marine in the game...but the lerk will gain, for that time of about 3 minutes lets say, something in the range of ...I don't know, off the top of my head, 25-42 res from tying up that one marine for that long + res income? And what about after 8 minutes? thats 7 minutes of lerking, and on a good turn of events, the lerk could probably have 98 res?
What happens if about 3 marines do it? (this is what I usually see). On average those 3 marine fruitlessly chasing the lerk will give that lerk...what...36 res in 3 minutes. Thats three minutes in which the lerk will gain like 15-30 res anyway through res towers, and also three minutes in which roughly hal a marine team has done nothing but die repeatedly to ONE alien...and given him 36 res too! something like a possible 66 res after three minutes if it's doing really well? And you wonder why we see onoses as early as 6-7 minutes into the game?
I don't know if these numbers totally add up (purely off the top of my head, someone feel free to correct them), however regardless of this the sentiment is true...that marines acting together to "put the lerk down and help the marine team" are actually hindering their team.
---
If the marines just ignore him, then the lerk isn't tying ANYONE up, not one marine, not anyone...in my eyes marines shouldn't still be penalised for this. They're penalised for tryign to waste time killing the lerk, this I understand...but why should marines have to go through with two thirds the effectiveness they should have from the start just for doing the best thing you can do against the lerks from a minute into the game? Something DOES need changing with sporing..wether or not it's just making the lerk spore *around* it and not use it as a projectile, or wether it's moving spore to third hive ability...it's (in my opinion) got to be done. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
The point I make about lerks here is not because I think marines should be let off lightly, not because I don't like getting killed by spores. If I die while building through spores, I just tell someone else to keep building then get on with stuff when I'm alive...spores don't bug me, while the fact it's so hard to actually hit a moving lerk does slgihtly annoy.
My point here is that lerks aren't the support unit they should be...they are until the second hive an attacking unit, and whats more I am seeing more and more lerks these days do nothing but spore and attack. Lerks should not be these sustained assault classes, they should be coupled with building gorges, attacking skulks, onoses and fades going about their business. They shouldn't be sitting on their own just gasing marines with impunity. They should however be aiding the defense of hives and the taking of outposts, the building and destruction of res points.
Hence these posts to highlight how spores, while not terribly unbalanced in themselves, in game cause problems for the marines that they shouldn't have to deal with from a lerk, and for aliens mean that a lot more lerks are not doing the job that they're expected to do.
How can the lerks be right when they were nerfed and changed in 2.0 to make them a support class, yet they're still going around on their own attacking by themselves and with it getting huge rewards?!
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
If my math is correct (as in without acually testing) then it should only take 18 bullets to kill a non cara lerk.
With level 3 it only takes 13
Thats not quite a full clip.
With hmg or pistol, 9 level 0 or 7 level 3. And hmgs shoot Fast.
So those things don't really pack a punch. Just a **** to shoot.
I only lerk other than gorge or skulk. I know from experience death usually goes something like this, ouch ooo aw heal "hah full health again already" instant KASPLAT.
I swear i have voodoo umbra, man the numbers of time in "in umbra" and not a single pistol bullet was stopped. Just unlucky sometimes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go to <a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php</a> and check the situation for fades. In nearly all cases, a fade can be killed with 1 LMG clip. How often do you see that happen? Sure a higher percentage of that clip must hit a fade than it takes to kill a lerk, but a lerk is much harder to hit.
Lerks do die. I've managed to get killed as a lerk several times. But I have to admit that getting killed in NS is one of my special talents (I once managed to get knifed to death as a redemption onos, beat that!), so maybe it's just me. It certainly is true that lerks tend to last a lot longer than fades, because a fade is big enough and close enough (until hive 3) to hit it.
Marines are long range. This makes lerks, with their big cloudy death farts a total pain in the **** (no pun). You can't do anything about it, because closing to it means spike death.
Aliens are close range. This makes shotguns, with their instant-hit-death to most critters, a total pain in the ****. You can't do anything about it, because you don't have really a single long-range attack that's effective unless your a lerk, and even then, the marines can easilly counter that, whereas you can't counter shotguns.
Tone down spores.
Tone down shotguns.
Each side does NOT need a weapon capable of rendering the player using it immortal to an entire range of atttacks.
(Why is @ss censored? You're allowed to say '@****' on public TV even...)
Like I just said: Lerks are the aliens shotguns:
1) They're cheap and available early game.
2) There's nothing the other team can do about it.
3) It's "drawbacks" only apply in VERY specialized situations, or late-game, when the damage has already been done.
If you nerf spores but DON'T nerf shotguns I'm going to be royally PSISED OFF.
"Do you people know how big a lerk looks when he's just sitting STILL at the end of a corridor, let alone when he's flapping about with half his body apparantly in the cieling?"
"Can I refer you to my above statement that blanket "out of game" statements such as "just aim for his body" really honestly have no place in a critisism of the "in game" lerk prowess."
Do you want to
A) Whine about how you cant kill lerks
B) Learn how to cope with them
I am assuming B.
Hence I point out where to shoot them, and have said that if you cant shoot them, leave them alone. These aren't out of the game statements - they're very valid ingame statements. If you can't hit a Lerk with a GL, don't waste your time. If you can't hit it with an LMG, walk away. I prefer pistols, and I know where to hit them. I have offered those tips as a solution.
People are offering tips to varying degrees, and your response is to claim we all know nothing about the lerk. I'm a lerk player, I know how good a lerk is, and I also know what to do to prevent it.
"In game lerks have a dominant and full impact on the marine game from a minute in, usually the time it takes marines to relocate. If you could please stop with the foolish talk of "well learn to aim" and such, and just think for one minute about how hard it is to hit something like a lerk (it's akin, in my experiance, in trying to hit a fade that is blinking away from you with your pistol), and with the combinations of vent systems, long coridoors, speed of a lerk and evolution upgrades...think about just how long a lerk can stay alive."
Why? Because *some* people are thinking "oh I can kill it with this LMG if I spray its head wildly from an angle where I can't hit the body and then when it doesn't die I'll whine and make a topic about how immortal they are."
People say "aim for the body" because 80% of the time people are aiming for the wings or head. And most of those people will be spraying wildly with LMGs, probably landing 2-3 hits at most. THAT is why lerks live so long. I sit in a vent, noone sees my body, and woo, I'm immortal. If they WALKED AWAY I wouldn't rack up kills.
"how is a support unit a support unit when he is near unbeatable alien that can quite happily take out and severly damage marines at their spawn if he is so inclined, and in the later games absolutely dominate the marines in a killing sense?"
Like a gorge beside OC? Maybe, just maybe, its because all aliens are designed for attacking other things. It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities. And lets not forget that the bulk of a lerks kill count come from marines who DONT KNOW BETTER.
"Why is the support unit sitting on his own firing at marines and not with a group of skulks giving umbra or working with a gorge to protect it more efficiently than a skulk can?"
Because they're all hoarding for onos? Because the lerk is perfectly protected in the vent? Because the marines are fool enough to think they can kill it with LMG? Because the lerk player wants lots of kills from LA marines at their spawn?
"Why is it that sitting on his own dealing gaseous death is actually not only a better tactic for his res whoring self, but also a better tactic for the rest of the team that barely have to do any work to kill the weakened marines marching out of their spawn?"
Because the comm placed his IPs beside a vent? Because the marine team haven't relocated or made a mini base that they can PG to?
"Why is the most effective type of team aid a lerk can give nothing to do with working with the team, and nothing to do with support!?!"
I believe the most effective team aid is psychic scream on any base raid. GG.
Teflon
"Desperate for resources, we headed to the double node room. Began to set up there and were CONSTANTLY spored"
No JPs, no HA? No wonder, really. I think in the entire game there's probably only 2 dbl res rooms that can actually be held. The problem with your loss was that you ran for dbl res. Secondly, even if the lerk hadn't got you, skulks would have. And they didn't need to attack as long as the lerk was there.
Of course, we've no idea where your res was spent. Perhaps you made a massive siege base that cost you all your res. You lost by spending more than you could afford. I don't think its believable to blame your loss on ONE lerk.
" can't even SEE him. He's on the other side of the hallway, WAY FAR AWAY"
Sounds like a description of a siege turret. From both your cases, we see that you reloc, are spotted, and die. The lerks fault for being the first to pick up on it? I suppose if an onos had rushed both spots, this post would be in a "Onos too overpowered" thread.
Back to niac
"Are you even reading this thread? How many games of NS do you play where all the players are evenly spaced from each other and never move? Aiming would be the key if there weren't so many issues with hitting a lerk that is flying, or infact if the lerk was stupid enough to come within 20 meters of a marine"
So lets blame the lerk for taking advantage of marine incompetence. While we're at it, lets say the gorge is overpowered because despite being a builder unit, IT CAN KILL THINGS!! F4 F4!!
A gorge is a builder unit. However, when it has no res, it can kill things.
A lerk is a support unit. However, when it has noone to support, it can kill things.
A gorge is big and slow. We counter it by shooting it. It counters by having friends
A lerk is small and fast. We counter it by leaving it alone, or getting HA. It counters by running off.
No, the lerk is not support only - but for that matter, NOTHING in the alien team is restricted to ONE role. A fade is hit and run.... but with Cara it can make a reasonable attempt at frontline combat. A gorge is a builder... but with adrenaline or celerity it becomes a great sapper. A lerk is a support unit.... but with adrenaline and gullible marines, its a killing machine.
A lerk doesnt get to marine base at game start. It has to gestate, and it has to get the extra res to make 30. Marines can relocate, weld vents, and if need be put up a turret farm with turrets placed to shoot the vent. If you build your IP in PLAIN VIEW of a vent, you are a fool. You take your chances with a PG outside of base, but to be honest NOTHING should be in a position to get close enough to a PG.
Clever structure placement and educated marines NEGATE a lerk advantage. Hence why so many people say "heres where to shoot them", "run off and leave them alone" or "don't build in vent ridden lerknests".
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
gorges are building and working 80% of the game, lerks in the beginning has NOTHING to support at ALL until hive 2 (umbra) so that means a lerk is supporting 40% of the game IF they decide to support, im not whining about lerks im just saying they can factor whether the game ends 5 min into the game by spammnig marines with spores so they an build or expand thus having marines whine and F4 and if not f4 skulks come in and end the game, and i dont like short games at all.
nwo i know debates are supposed to have thier arguments, but not flaming, i can already tell this will become a flame war on the lerk lovers and lerk haters so plz, quit the flaming and post something constructive not "U CANT AIM" or GO COMPLAIN CUZ U CANT KILL A LERK!. reasons like those is why threads get locked.
ownage.
But this topic has sparked my interest... Simply because I for once actually see advice and/or suggestions instead of constant flaming.
So for now I will go through some of the suggestions and advice and comment on them:
1) Lerks are too fast, they can't be hit.
<i>true, they are fast, but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down. And also, who made it a universal rule that ALL support units should be slow?</i>
2) Lerks should be nerfed to much less hitpoint.
<i>Quote from above text: but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down </i>
3) Make spores a 3-hive ability
<i>Why do you think Lerks use spores in the beginning of the game? Because they are useless against Heavy Armor which almost always appear sometime in the game. Spikes are essentially useless against HA with welders and HMGs, since what little damage they do is repaired easily and the HMGs will make it imposible to keep up a sustained fire. If you make spores 3rd-hive abilities then they need to affect HA as well... otherwise spores are, in essence, useless.</i>
4) Make the spores a only-works-in-a-short-radius-from-the-Lerk weapon.
<i>Good idea, that way they can fly in over the 145 turrets the commander have placed and will still have really big chance of doing anything /sarcasm off. Won't work, if Lerks are to do damage up close, then their hitpoints need to be drastically increased. At the moment, they are too weak for spores to work like that. No Lerk can stay alive if the marines are close enough for a "melee" weapon to work properly.</i>
5) The Lerk is supposed to be a supporting class and not take out entire squads of marines on it's own.
<i>And in most games, mobile artillery units are also "support" units and they can, if used BY A CAPABLE PLAYER, decimate entire marine/infantry/whatever legions. So why shouldn't Lerks be able to do the same? Also, since when did ANY Alien player give a sh*t about Umbra, most aliens will ignore it and rush anyway... and since it goes away so quickly and have been so heavily nerfed, even if they do stay inside, it barely puts a dent in the hail of bullets coming their way. So if they can't umbra properly what then? </i>
6) I KNOW THE ANSWER! Switch Primal Scream and Spore around.
<i>And how many people will come to the forums and scream NERF NERF NERF, when their base gets overrun by 5 skuls, all super-powerful because of it? Primal Scream is meant for a massive invasion to quickly end a base and/or outpost (or maybe a boring game?), would it be "better" to have a massive invasion of near-invincible skulks right in the beginning of the game?</i>
Now, before you start sceaming at me for being a Lerk-lover then read this:
Lerk's are owerpowered, it's obvious. But if they aren't owerpowered in health (relatively low, even with Cara) and if their skills are about as balanced as they get, then what? <b>Their flying speed. </b>
Lower it. Not by much, but make it so they can't move quite as fast in the air. That way, they will be easier to take out since they will be easier to hit and they will have a much harder time escaping from one (or more) vengefull marines and their LMGs.
and maybe (just maybe), correct the maps, so ceilings and such won't hide them completely anymore.
Another possible change would be to decrease the size of the gas cloud... make it cover maybe 2/3 of what it does now and let the GAS MODEL ITSELF determine what area you receive damage in. At the moment, marines take damage even when they are well out of the cloud.
Now I have made a calm and friendly post where I tried to give some suggestions and comments on some of the ideas thrown around here. Now you can all go back to the usual standard of these forums, LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!
OK, I had a load of more stuff I wanted to write, but it's almost 3am here and I've forgotten what it was so I'll shut up and go to bed...
remember: <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> = Natural Selection at it's finest.
A) Whine about how you cant kill lerks
B) Learn how to cope with them
I am assuming B.
Hence I point out where to shoot them, and have said that if you cant shoot them, leave them alone. These aren't out of the game statements - they're very valid ingame statements. If you can't hit a Lerk with a GL, don't waste your time. If you can't hit it with an LMG, walk away. I prefer pistols, and I know where to hit them. I have offered those tips as a solution.
People are offering tips to varying degrees, and your response is to claim we all know nothing about the lerk. I'm a lerk player, I know how good a lerk is, and I also know what to do to prevent it.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Typical non-discussive subtle inflamatory post. Well done...I must back down because you have called my bluff...I can't aim!
Or whatever, I don't care. I kill enough lerks that are stupid enough to get close, all I know is they are a **** to kill when flying half in the roof a whole coridoor away. The people posting images of shotguns as though they are the answer? How many of you have shotguns with a precise and accurate range of 20-30 meters?
Of course this is all besides the point, because my gripe was never about how fast the lerk was, or how hard it was to hit...I think it works. However I *was* countering all these people that seem to think a lerk is as easy to kill as a gorge.
My responce is to say that tips are not what are needed, as they are besides the point. You can try and make your e-**** look bigger by "giving tips" in the style of "lol learn to aim", but they're not helpful nor accurate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? Because *some* people are thinking "oh I can kill it with this LMG if I spray its head wildly from an angle where I can't hit the body and then when it doesn't die I'll whine and make a topic about how immortal they are."
People say "aim for the body" because 80% of the time people are aiming for the wings or head. And most of those people will be spraying wildly with LMGs, probably landing 2-3 hits at most. THAT is why lerks live so long. I sit in a vent, noone sees my body, and woo, I'm immortal. If they WALKED AWAY I wouldn't rack up kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because everyone that has an ounce of sense already knows that you shoot the body, and you shoot it with a pistol fast. No-one is claiming lerks are immoral, just extremely sneaky and hard to kill...this is the way it should be in the circumstances it's hard to kill, no one is doubting that, however claiming that lerks are so easy to kill, as people have on this thread...is something that I just had to put a counter to. Lerks that have been stupid enough to fly into your base will die easily yes, but we don't always face those lerks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like a gorge beside OC? Maybe, just maybe, its because all aliens are designed for attacking other things. It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities. And lets not forget that the bulk of a lerks kill count come from marines who DONT KNOW BETTER.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges these days do build OC's before they build RT's, or build them straight after as protection. This would be a waste of res if not for the fact it does help protect the RT's, but it is a waste of res in the short term none the less, where a gorge could be getting another RT. If the lerk was supporting it of course. The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities, it has spike which is extremely competant at what it does. You can't, however, expect to go alien with any class and have the same ability to attack.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because they're all hoarding for onos? Because the lerk is perfectly protected in the vent? Because the marines are fool enough to think they can kill it with LMG? Because the lerk player wants lots of kills from LA marines at their spawn?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, exactly, so take away the lerks ability to do that, and voila...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because the comm placed his IPs beside a vent? Because the marine team haven't relocated or made a mini base that they can PG to?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? In the maps where lerking is a problem it doesn't matter *where* you build you're still spore bait.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe the most effective team aid is psychic scream on any base raid. GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's certainly effective, but more effective than tying up stupid marines and sending just about every marine that is spawning out with a third less health than he should have at least? I don't think so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So lets blame the lerk for taking advantage of marine incompetence. While we're at it, lets say the gorge is overpowered because despite being a builder unit, IT CAN KILL THINGS!! F4 F4!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regardless of marine competance, a sporing lerk has an effect on the marine team, though as I've said that isn't my beef, it's that the lerk isn't a team player at the first hive. I'm not a marine angry that the lerk is killing me, I'm an alien player annoyed that the support unit I should have is doing bugger all to support me, mostly because the lure of easy kills and a relatively easy game is too much to draw a lerk out of doing anything but sporing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A gorge is a builder unit. However, when it has no res, it can kill things.
A lerk is a support unit. However, when it has noone to support, it can kill things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can do it without spores, and as such it can then also be actively seeking to support an alien team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, the lerk is not support only - but for that matter, NOTHING in the alien team is restricted to ONE role. A fade is hit and run.... but with Cara it can make a reasonable attempt at frontline combat. A gorge is a builder... but with adrenaline or celerity it becomes a great sapper. A lerk is a support unit.... but with adrenaline and gullible marines, its a killing machine.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but it's not, as has been said before the spores are too slow for it to be a "killing machine". A gorge is a builder, but can make dents in large buildings, yeah thats right...and it sticks to that. A lerk is a support unit that can also bring pain and death...but...it's not actually doing that. I rarely see a lerk actually supporting anything but itself...so how is it even doing its primary task? This is the issue, I'd say a good three quarters of the time it's just doing its secondary function, because it's available from hive one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A lerk doesnt get to marine base at game start. It has to gestate, and it has to get the extra res to make 30. Marines can relocate, weld vents, and if need be put up a turret farm with turrets placed to shoot the vent. If you build your IP in PLAIN VIEW of a vent, you are a fool. You take your chances with a PG outside of base, but to be honest NOTHING should be in a position to get close enough to a PG.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One base rush as a skulk and gestation had me in a vent in the marine base just inside a minute. Build times dictate that as they weren't moving anywhere, I could spore with impunity and get some kills while they did essential building. This happens a lot more than one would obviously think.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clever structure placement and educated marines NEGATE a lerk advantage. Hence why so many people say "heres where to shoot them", "run off and leave them alone" or "don't build in vent ridden lerknests".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what? That still leaves a lerk that is trying this time with a little more difficulty (as rarely does a marine team relocate or put a base anywhere where the lerks don't have some kind of getaway or cover) just to kill marines and do little else to support.
This much is true. Right now I think the game works with lerks as they are...however as a marine I certainly dislike lerks, and as aliens I dislike their lack of teamwork. I'm not a lerk-lover of lerk-hater as such...just a hater of such imbalance that *is* present, anyone that is not blinkered can see it for what it truely is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) Lerks are too fast, they can't be hit.
<i>true, they are fast, but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down. And also, who made it a universal rule that ALL support units should be slow?</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't my beef personally, as I said above...the speed isn't an issue in my opinion. But a lot of people decided to come to the thread with this knowledge that lerks are sure-fire dead if you're wielding a shotgun, or "if you shoot at the body" which, while true in certain circumstances, is bollocks in others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) Lerks should be nerfed to much less hitpoint.
<i>Quote from above text: but if the marine is quick it is quite possible to avoid most damage, and with a good aim you CAN take them down </i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, the hitpoints aren't an issue here, they're enough to keep it alive adequetely, but it's not their HP which is keeping them alive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) Make spores a 3-hive ability
<i>Why do you think Lerks use spores in the beginning of the game? Because they are useless against Heavy Armor which almost always appear sometime in the game. Spikes are essentially useless against HA with welders and HMGs, since what little damage they do is repaired easily and the HMGs will make it imposible to keep up a sustained fire. If you make spores 3rd-hive abilities then they need to affect HA as well... otherwise spores are, in essence, useless.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I still don't agree with this. At three hives if you're winning, spore would be used anyway, at three hives if you're losing, spore shouldn't be used anyway. However the rearrangal of the abilities *would* mean the lerk in the early game has to be more supportive, and in the early game it does not need such sever offensive abilities as spore.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) Make the spores a only-works-in-a-short-radius-from-the-Lerk weapon.
<i>Good idea, that way they can fly in over the 145 turrets the commander have placed and will still have really big chance of doing anything /sarcasm off. Won't work, if Lerks are to do damage up close, then their hitpoints need to be drastically increased. At the moment, they are too weak for spores to work like that. No Lerk can stay alive if the marines are close enough for a "melee" weapon to work properly.</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well it really depends how you're viewing spores...by doing such a change, lerks sporing would not be to attack, but to block off areas (as has been said here before) and to help protect itself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->5) The Lerk is supposed to be a supporting class and not take out entire squads of marines on it's own.
<i>And in most games, mobile artillery units are also "support" units and they can, if used BY A CAPABLE PLAYER, decimate entire marine/infantry/whatever legions. So why shouldn't Lerks be able to do the same? Also, since when did ANY Alien player give a sh*t about Umbra, most aliens will ignore it and rush anyway... and since it goes away so quickly and have been so heavily nerfed, even if they do stay inside, it barely puts a dent in the hail of bullets coming their way. So if they can't umbra properly what then? </i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if anything, in my opinion, that's more of a reason to put umbra at first hive than any. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->6) I KNOW THE ANSWER! Switch Primal Scream and Spore around.
<i>And how many people will come to the forums and scream NERF NERF NERF, when their base gets overrun by 5 skuls, all super-powerful because of it? Primal Scream is meant for a massive invasion to quickly end a base and/or outpost (or maybe a boring game?), would it be "better" to have a massive invasion of near-invincible skulks right in the beginning of the game?</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably a lot, if the changes are just implimented as said without balance <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Though primal scream shouldn't be a hive one ability...if I've personally suggested that then I've made a serious gramatical error somewhere, appologies if that is the case.
However, primal scream is rarely used as it is, I've seen it used in about 4 games since the release of 2.0, lerks are seemingly more happy to umbra their position and spore...seeming this is how lerks tend to like to spend their times at the end of the game, I don't see why spore only being a hive three ability would be so bad <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, before you start sceaming at me for being a Lerk-lover then read this:
Lerk's are owerpowered, it's obvious. But if they aren't owerpowered in health (relatively low, even with Cara) and if their skills are about as balanced as they get, then what? <b>Their flying speed. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I don't know about that, a lerk that is taking off is pretty slow, and if lerks try to fast to fly off, they usually get caught on juts in the cieling. The problem here is that they then dissapear into the ceiling. This is a **** because no matter how much you shout "omg just use a shotgun to pwn those lerkies" or "aim for the body!" there are two fatal things wrong with this advice. One, the range is now pretty great between you and the lerk, and Two, how can you shoot at a body you can't see?
Maybe if this clipping problem was rectified, so that people knew exactly where they were shooting, it'd help balance the lerks out without having to do anything more drastic to them...I don't know.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lower it. Not by much, but make it so they can't move quite as fast in the air. That way, they will be easier to take out since they will be easier to hit and they will have a much harder time escaping from one (or more) vengefull marines and their LMGs.
and maybe (just maybe), correct the maps, so ceilings and such won't hide them completely anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh, I read through as I reply to a post, but yeah, I reitteratre your ceiling point. I'm still not sure that lerks need a speed nerf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Another possible change would be to decrease the size of the gas cloud... make it cover maybe 2/3 of what it does now and let the GAS MODEL ITSELF determine what area you receive damage in. At the moment, marines take damage even when they are well out of the cloud.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They do? I've never tested this myself, bit of a **** if it's right! I don't know about decreasing the spore cloud size, I'd personally say the best "simple" way to nerf spores would be to make it cost a lot more energy than it currently does. All round though it would probably have the same effect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now I have made a calm and friendly post where I tried to give some suggestions and comments on some of the ideas thrown around here. Now you can all go back to the usual standard of these forums, LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not at all, this is the sort of post that I would hope would be made, not one of the condescending ones that tend to get posted in such threads that insult peoples intelligence merely because their pet alien/weapon is being criticised.
-Lee
Still, the reasons why i like the skulk is it's speed:
when you rush as a skulk, you *really* make a <i>rush</i>! The same nearly goes for the Lerk.
But I prefer the lerk over the skulk because of it's support ability.
When I decide to go Lerk at the beginning of a game (truly, you only need one or two marine start rushes as a skulk to get the needed rez) I'm most likely to be seen haning around a gorge to provide him the best protection that I can: Sporing the nearby corridors to prevent marines coming around and screwing my fellow fattie's work before he may be done with his task.
It works mostly well, since marines are hesitating a bit before rushing in the cloud, and it's particularly effective when we have a skulk or two to finish the daring marines who come to kill the Lerk (me).
If there's no gorges, I'll follow a pack of skulks or a Fade in order to assist them/him in their/his rush/hit-and-run.
I've been wondering in vents near marine bases from time to time, but it quickly gets boring, and all I wait for, is to discover that one of my teamates has gestated into something like a gorge/fade/onos in order to get back to him and provide him assistance.
The reason why I keep on evolving into the Lerk form in mid-late games are the fact that secondary and third hive abilities are usually enabled by then and it helps me provide better assistance to my buddies. You'll then see me most likely behind the one or two onii that are charging the base, giving them continual Umbra Coverage (with Adrenaline) and Primal Screaming from time to time for convenience, if their destructive task takes too long.
I don't bother sporing anymore, or just for the color of the cloud bonus, since spores wont have the time to really affect any marines, because my fellows onii are mass murdering anything that wears boots in the sector.
I trully play like that.
So,in my opinion, there's no reason for nerfing anything, but the mentality of the Lerk players who keep on sporing again and again and again even if the marine team is all set up in Heavy tights (gas-mask helmets included).
It's not much a question of changing anything in the game, but a question of having the gamers play in another fashion.
But hey! You pick up your own style and that's it! Nobody can blame you because you wear panties on your head (unless they are really ugly ones maybe)...or well maybe it was a bad example, still, then, nobody can blame you to maliciously over-use the spore ability. Or they can blame, but it's all they can.
If your playing style is to use your support unit for mass-murdering purpose, then I don't know what I can do to stop you without fooling with your liberty.
My style is to help people building things or ruining others. If you think that I waste my time because hanging in a vent spreading gaz clouds for decades is your idea of fun, then we just don't share the same idea of what "fun" is. That's it. Enjoy yourself, and let me enjoy myslef my own way.
Inverting the order of the abilities wont change anything IMO, there will always be a few people to find the little pesky tricky thing that will make others cry in despair and horror.
<snip>
When I decide to go Lerk at the beginning of a game (truly, you only need one or two marine start rushes as a skulk to get the needed rez) I'm most likely to be seen haning around a gorge to provide him the best protection that I can: Sporing the nearby corridors to prevent marines coming around and screwing my fellow fattie's work before he may be done with his task.
<snip>
If there's no gorges, I'll follow a pack of skulks or a Fade in order to assist them/him in their/his rush/hit-and-run.
I've been wondering in vents near marine bases from time to time, but it quickly gets boring, and all I wait for, is to discover that one of my teamates has gestated into something like a gorge/fade/onos in order to get back to him and provide him assistance.
The reason why I keep on evolving into the Lerk form in mid-late games are the fact that secondary and third hive abilities are usually enabled by then and it helps me provide better assistance to my buddies. You'll then see me most likely behind the one or two onii that are charging the base, giving them continual Umbra Coverage (with Adrenaline) and Primal Screaming from time to time for convenience, if their destructive task takes too long.
I don't bother sporing anymore, or just for the color of the cloud bonus, since spores wont have the time to really affect any marines, because my fellows onii are mass murdering anything that wears boots in the sector.
I trully play like that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excellent <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> you're playing it how (at least I think) you should be playing a lerk, and no doubt a lot of aliens are left alive instead of dead because of the support you give.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So,in my opinion, there's no reason for nerfing anything, but the mentality of the Lerk players who keep on sporing again and again and again even if the marine team is all set up in Heavy tights (gas-mask helmets included).
It's not much a question of changing anything in the game, but a question of having the gamers play in another fashion.
But hey! You pick up your own style and that's it! Nobody can blame you because you wear panties on your head (unless they are really ugly ones maybe)...or well maybe it was a bad example, still, then, nobody can blame you to maliciously over-use the spore ability. Or they can blame, but it's all they can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well this is the issue at hand, how do you get the lerks that are being useless to their team yet somehow at the same time quite powerful, to stop doing such acts...and start supporting the team in the first hive?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Inverting the order of the abilities wont change anything IMO, there will always be a few people to find the little pesky tricky thing that will make others cry in despair and horror.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed, though it is my opinion that if those others are crying in dispair and horror because they were taken by a good team working alien force, then it is at least a good tactical part of the game...whereas now the cries of dispair and horror are just because the lerk has some issues that a fair few people seem to think need addressing.
Again though, well done for playing the lerk that way <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Well it's besides the point, but seeming a lerk can be in the base within a minute and a half quite happily, you won't be gassing marines that are turret farming their base, you'll be gassing marines that are building their obs, getting their first few rounds of ammo from the armoury and building an arms lab.
But as I said, this is besides the point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> This thread isn't about balancing turret farms, and spores don't do that anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Heh, right, I think the reason lerks are less support and more solo hunting is the combination of their mobility and their semi-indirect fire long range weapons. A cautious lerk could go for ages without being killed, since it doesn't need to get into the midst of the marines to melee (fade/skulk style) and the time any sort of fire at all comes in it's direction it has the option to cut and run.
So perhaps instead of baying for spores to be nerfed mobility could be considered instead, that would force them to be more support or at least work with backup, sincea single lerk who couldn't run from the rines when they charge it is pretty likely to die, it wouldn't be a drastic nerf but could certainly make them alittle more manageable...
By reducing mobility I mean something along the lines of reducing the max flight-speed to the same as walking for lerks (maybe hard to do code wise, dunno at all) and/or reducing the acceleration of each wing-flap dramatically, so gliding is used more and changing directions and accelerating away is much harder... both together could make the lerk need backup or face being caught and having the marines pull his wings off (cos they do hate the spores that much <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
[Edit] - vents are still hell, but that counts for every single alien class (okes not the big boy) against the marines untill GLs, so you'll just have to live with that
a) Regen is perhaps a little fast acting.
b) Turrets don't care about Gas and have very good accuracy.
c) HMG is the best Lerk counter due to its deadliness at range, useful but not pointless spread and high cyclic fire capacity. However, everyone brings shotguns to the party now.
d) Jetpacks allow people to pursue and slay Lerks, not that you see them outside of clan matches.
e) HA ignores spore clouds.
Since b) is only useful for outpost defence and c) through e) are not relevant to the opening game, it would appear that a) is the main issue. A carapaced Lerk is only dangerous with Gorge or DC support. A Redemption Lerk is usually only combat worthy for 3/100ths of a second without the same. Since both gorges and DCs are relatively weak units, it is reasonable to expect that either marines will kill the offending DC/Gorge or die like the nubs they are.
Regen is, however, a devastatingly useful ability with Lerks and since the only way to deal with it is to kill DCs (a tactic almost no one tries, despite the relative financial hassle of building chambers in 2.01d). Once you couple this with umbra, the only way to kill Lerks is with a grenade, a knife or if the Lerk gets careless.
As a Lerk, what upgrades do you guys take?
I don't know if I agree about regen however, as it's pretty slow as it is...slow enough for the bigger aliens anyway...nerfing it for lerks would really nerf it for onos, for example.
I'm still not sure about the mobility thing...but then again I cant see how it'd be handled if it was updated. As long as the mobility wasn't taken from lerks significantly it could work I suppose...but it must still be a maneuvourable unit...very much so.
-Lee
<i>*Blushing a bit*</i>
Well... thanks <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And sorry DroopyDaDog for quoting without any sense of measure, but it helps targeting to what you're exactly replying, and thus give precise answers... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Still, even if Lerks had to be nerfed/ability swaped, I think that I would still like them, as long as they are Lerks i.e: the fast flying little imp who assumes such assistance traits.
NS is mostly about teamwork. Since most of our players may come from games/mods like DoD or CS, I can understand that the "last-man-standing-lone-wolf-high-on-the-kills-score-board" way of making things still impregnate them.
But if they come to NS, it's most probably to try something new: a cooperation-is-the-key mod, since that must be NS' reputation in other gamers communities.
Thus, they should try to change their Hunt-For-Kills habits and try to Adapt themselves (lol, that's Natural in a game called Natural Selection^^).
If a CSer for example plays a lerk like he was in CS ("I mostly go for kills, peeps!"), I just can say that it must be because of his CSer habits. But at a time or another, he should try to change his mind and adapt himself to a more cooperative way of playing the game.
Change of Mentality is the key to the issue of over-sporing Lerks (and to some other issues btw), still IMO.
It looks like very simple said that way, but the problem lies in the fact that you can't force people to change their habits, even if we are talking about "bad" habits.
All you can do is telling them that... <i>Beeeeyonnnd, There's So much more!</i>
That the <i>Truth</i> lies somewhere else... <i>in a galaxy far far away</i> from individual-oriented mods... a place called NS where being a flying gas-machine isn't the only way of doing things...
Or that's what <i>I Want To Believe</i> at least <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Eventualy, people like that will get tired of their mass-gazing habit, like nearly everything, and then maybe they will turn themselves toward a better cooperation gameplay.
Oh! In order to try encourage people becoming more supportive:
Recently I discovered a "new" feature (new to me):
We were there, two lerks following some cute fattie. After dropping some OCs and DCs near a recently acquired Rez node, he suddenly turns toward the other lerk and says: "Ok! Let's move to dblrez (there was a marine outpost there) and play dah madz bomberz again!"
And the Lerk managed to take the gorge with it's claws and lift him!!
Well, maybe this is a well known possibility, but it was the first time I had seen such a thing in days and days of playtime!
Soon after that, as I was following them, I saw what they meant by "play dah madz bomberz": the Lerk was flying toward the ceiling of doublerez while still holding the gorge, and the gorge taking advantage of the Lerk's "maniability" and speed, bile-bombed the marine's base properly!
It was a really funny thing to see! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And some marines were all "WTH!?" so I think I wasnt the only one amazed <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Shortly after that, I gave it a try and we were two " mad flying bomberz" happily taking our passengers toward the outpost! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, that was one of my best moments ever in my NS parties <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course, this requires a bit of teamwork and coordination, but, heh! That's what NS is all about, right? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lerk Fanboys, just try this out, at least once in your life, and you may understand why I keep on saying that gorges are lerk's best friends (well, they are every aliens' best friends of course) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>Edit: Oh! About the mobility issue... well since one of the things I enjoy most about the Lerk is it's speed -and thus mobility, I had to say that this would not be my favourite way of handling the problem, but that's very personal...
Also, lol, Lee, we go for the same upgrades combo as Lerks <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I assume it's the choice of alot people btw...</i>
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm honoured....but I'm not *that* attractive <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
I also agree about the mobility issue.
Maybe I've been a little too hasty with my pro-change stance, maybe all it'll take to sort out some lerk issues is to sort out the whole ceiling thing...I'm sure that if that was fixed then it'd be a lot easier to gague how effective a lerk is when people can see his body to shoot it.
-Lee
Lerks are fine as they are but it would help if the lerks collision box was raised so they didn't dissapear into the celling 'cos that does get annoying but the lerk player can't help it.
I can kill about 75% of lerks i come across even if it means knifing their *** out of the air.
LMGs kill lerks dead after 18 shots with 0 armor left.
Pistols kill lerks dead after 9 shots with 0 armor left.
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
ty <a href='http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php' target='_blank'>http://www.nonoobs.com/damage.php</a> very useful if you are bored
Learn to shoot moving targets and you will have no problems.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
When I join marines and have to deal with Lerks, most of my hard times come from when the Lerk "disapear" in the ceiling and is thus rendered <i>nearly</i> un-fragable. Ok, so it may give you time to close in the distance if he stays stationary, but assuming he may have seen you come in, or even not, he will probably ensure his longevity by flapping a little backward...
And then manage to spike you to death...
I remember that once we had to deal with a Lerk hiding in a corridor near marine spawn (can't remember the map very well, maybe hera). As most of the marines were just leaving to their WPs after spawning back (which is a good thing) I just said to one of my fellow squadmate: "Hey! next time we respawn, if the lerk is still there, we go and kill him. I'll go first and shield you till we get close enough and then you kill him"
He agreed. After respawning, It took us two trips to kill the Lerk.
I dont know if it was chance, but maybe this can be a way to disable a Lerk, as long as someone is ok about shielding.
But here again, it's just teamworking, and I think that's fair enough, don't you?
And I have to add that this won't properly work if the Lerk has a backup unit like a Fade or else, but we are talking about a RfK Lerk here, the one kind that prevails lone sieging than cooperating with his teamates.
Also, dont try this technique unless you are a vanilla marine, because every equipment that's not the one you get at respawn is a valuable items (so dont do it in vents, since you cant get ther without a JP <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
<i>Edit: added "nearly" before "unfragable <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> </i>