<!--QuoteBegin--Epoch666+Aug 31 2003, 07:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Epoch666 @ Aug 31 2003, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Learn to shoot moving targets and you will have no problems.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well done Epoch after this many pages of Lerk discussion, such things have never been said, you've opened our eyes to facts that we never ever realised...oh and top marks on the scorpian reference, <span style='color:white'>baleeted</span>!
When I join marines and have to deal with Lerks, most of my hard times come from when the Lerk "disapear" in the ceiling and is thus rendered <i>nearly</i> un-fragable. Ok, so it may give you time to close in the distance if he stays stationary, but assuming he may have seen you come in, or even not, he will probably ensure his longevity by flapping a little backward... And then manage to spike you to death... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aye, most decent lerks really have no problem escaping marines...most of them have eyes for a start, and know that as soon as a marine starts running towards them the course of action is to spore them, spore the ground infront of you then fly backwards (while in the ceiling) and spore some of the coridoor infront of you.
But hey, follow Epochs in depth and well thought out post, just shoot him through the walls as the lerk flies around a corner or two, or make some educated guesses as to where the "body" of the lerk is while it jets off through the cieling <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember that once we had to deal with a Lerk hiding in a corridor near marine spawn (can't remember the map very well, maybe hera). As most of the marines were just leaving to their WPs after spawning back (which is a good thing) I just said to one of my fellow squadmate: "Hey! next time we respawn, if the lerk is still there, we go and kill him. I'll go first and shield you till we get close enough and then you kill him" He agreed. After respawning, It took us two trips to kill the Lerk. I dont know if it was chance, but maybe this can be a way to disable a Lerk, as long as someone is ok about shielding. But here again, it's just teamworking, and I think that's fair enough, don't you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experiance Lerks are greedy these days, greedy for spore kills. So though you'll chase him off (and because aliens rarely put SC down first here in the UK) the lerk will only wait and come back, meanwhile I'll have hidden in a place behind him and taken him out behind. This works on so many levels with so many aliens. Pincer movements really take down aliens well, as they usually don't know what to do with people attacking from two sides.
As you say, this only works against loner lerks, and stupid ones at that...but then they're the only ones that would do such a thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But hey, follow Epochs in depth and well thought out post, just shoot him through the walls as the lerk flies around a corner or two, or make some educated guesses as to where the "body" of the lerk is while it jets off through the cieling <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, more seriously <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, that's what another (obviously) more exeprienced (than I) player told me, about the "pincer" strategy a moment ago in game: it works wonders! even if my aim isn't really good, we managed to get ride of a lerk almost every time (I wasn't alone each time, so we could properly seize him in a cross-fire) he showed his nozzle near marine spawn. The funny (sad?) thing is he kept on going at least 3times... from the same direction.. at nearly the same spot... Maybe he didn't reallzed that he was getting slain from behind?
More obviously he didn't helped his teamates very much, even by providing an useful diversion, as the marines ultimately won the game. It may have been a little harder if he had been assisted by a skulk or two, but as he was all alone... and as it took only two mens away from the main hot spot (sieging second hive, with one already locked) to shoot him down... His presence would have been much more appreciated there but heh! We were not going to tell him what to do in order to annoy us better <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I would have told him at the beginning of the new round, since I joined aliens, but he had left the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--SinSpawn+Aug 29 2003, 04:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SinSpawn @ Aug 29 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well in DOD the support weapon is the BAR/STG44 and its pretty good at killing all.
Lerks get kills early in game but later near the end, their mainly supposed to support. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The STG44 is not a support class. Its one of the first correctly made assaults rifles in history.
"Typical non-discussive subtle inflamatory post. Well done...I must back down because you have called my bluff...I can't aim!"
Anyone with the ability to push buttons can clip out a small section of a post and label it falsely.
"Or whatever, I don't care."
Look, I clipped this out, and now I'll say that means you don't care about NS, haha, how clever am I, and I don't even need to answer the rest of the post!
Back in reality, the post's opening is setting the scene. Are whining, or discussing. Discussing. Whats are offered in discussions? Solutions.
"try and make your e-**** look bigger by "giving tips" in the style of "lol learn to aim", but they're not helpful nor accurate."
If you'd read what the post said, it suggested aiming for the proper part, which IS a problem for most beginners, and secondly if you can't hit it, LEAVE IT ALONE, which is also helpful. Otherwise on a team of 8 players, 6 are sitting spraying a vent with LMG. And that directly contributes to a lerk's kill score. I'd also like you to note that there was no "lololol you sux0r, learn to aimz!".
"No, because everyone that has an ounce of sense already knows..."
So new players have no sense? Nice. And how do they learn? By people telling them, perhaps <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"No-one is claiming lerks are immoral"
GASP! Lerks do drugs! Explains the spore effects anyhow, hehe <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"QUOTE It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities."
"The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities, it has spike which is extremely competant at what it does. You can't, however, expect to go alien with any class and have the same ability to attack."
Erm.... now, stop me if I'm wrong, but I think I said IF lerks had zero offensive abilities. You seem to have missed that. Secondly, I don't expect to do the same killing with an Onos as I do with a lerk, but at the same time thats apples and oranges. The crux of the matter is lerks are not "only" support troops, and gorges aren't "only" builders.
"Right, exactly, so take away the lerks ability to do that, and voila..."
Whoa whoa whoa...... people can't kill the lerk.. and they're not smart enough to avoid it.... so lets nerf it? Thats a rather radical leap of thought isn't it?
"What? In the maps where lerking is a problem it doesn't matter *where* you build you're still spore bait."
Do feel free to list these maps. I consider a "lerk problem" to be one where the lerk can spore without getting shot at. This means vents, not two doorways either side of base. Two spring to mind where there's a vent in base, and in both maps things can be built out of sight of the vents. Both vents can also be welded. Lerk problem? Marine incompetence. Weld the holes, when the lerk dies it won't be coming back unless it can get into your base and fly to the vent from there. Build your IPs out of sight and put the PG close to them. Thus ends your lerk problem at base.
Psych Scream-
"No, it's certainly effective, but more effective than tying up stupid marines and sending just about every marine that is spawning out with a third less health than he should have at least? I don't think so."
Each to our opinions. Spore is effective against a niche group, psy scream against any group. I tend to rate flexibility when it comes to effectivity <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"it's that the lerk isn't a team player at the first hive."
Again, I put this squarely at the feet of the player. A skulk can rambo off at game start and not be missed because he's only a skulk. He won't get a lot of kills unless he's good, and while you're attacking one marine there's usually two shooting at you. The lerk however, can be used by any chimp with a mouse and the ability to aim. And can get masses of kills if the comm screws up.
Now, at the same time, I've seen games where ONE skulk has got into base, smashed both IPs and when the comm leapt out, killed him too. I don't blame the skulk, I don't say he's not a team player, instead what I see is a comming mistake which killed the team.
The lerk just does this better.
"I'm an alien player annoyed that the support unit I should have is doing bugger all to support me, mostly because the lure of easy kills and a relatively easy game is too much to draw a lerk out of doing anything but sporing."
Yeah but at the same time we have gorge players dropping chambers for their own benefit, not that of the team. Whats the solution? Force voting chambers? So then the gorge just makes huge pointless OC walls. How do we counter that?
"QUOTE A lerk is a support unit.... but with adrenaline and gullible marines, its a killing machine. "
"but it's not, as has been said before the spores are too slow for it to be a "killing machine"."
Please reread my quote. Adrenaline. Gullible marines. If you define killing machine as 20 kills in two seconds, then no, its not a killing machine. If you define it as killing lots of people before it dies, then yes, its a killing machine. Second, you'll note no mention of spores. The point illustrated is that you can't expect an alien to stick to its "class".
"A gorge is a builder, but can make dents in large buildings, yeah thats right...and it sticks to that."
No. You can acid spit marines to death. You can web them and do the same. You can build offensive OC nests (rather than defensive ones). It CAN fill an attack role, and even a support role with adren and spammed healspray. Again, the point is that it is NOT restricted to "just building".
"One base rush as a skulk and gestation had me in a vent in the marine base just inside a minute."
Which map? Again, how can we blame the lerk if the comm shoved an IP under your nose? What exactly is "essential building"? In all the venty maps (iirc) the CC is wayyy out of sight of the vent. You can stick two IPs beside it with impunity, and an armoury too. No spore will touch you.
"QUOTE Clever structure placement and educated marines NEGATE a lerk advantage. Hence why so many people say "heres where to shoot them", "run off and leave them alone" or "don't build in vent ridden lerknests".
So what? That still leaves a lerk that is trying this time with a little more difficulty (as rarely does a marine team relocate or put a base anywhere where the lerks don't have some kind of getaway or cover) just to kill marines and do little else to support."
So what? So the lerk isn't sporing all over the marines and laughing its head off. And the lerk should be nerfed because the people playing it don't teamplay? Because marines don't relocate? By that logic, why not nerf marines, since they dont teamplay either.
The problem, as I see it.
Most Lerk players don't teamplay Most Marines don't know how to cope with Lerks.
The solutions:
Beat them all with the nerfing stick! Make sieges target lerks! Take the lerk out of the game! Remove everything from the lerk except for Umbra and Psychic Scream!
Educate marines on how to combat lerks!
I really don't think nerfing the Lerk is the solution to Lerks taking advantage of uneducated marines. Removing its abilities certainly won't endear it to people (woo, a wasted class, joy) and I'm concerned that switching the spore to something else would seriously affect the balance of the game. Nerfing the spore will only cripple those who use lerks properly. In my opinion, nerfing spore because marines run into plain sight of a lerk is like nerfing devour because players stand still. You're penalising one player for the incompetence of another.
Sort out the clipping roof problems and keep the marines educated on how to cope with lerks. That'll solve the bulk of problems, imho. The rest is down to the lerk players themselves.
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Sep 1 2003, 02:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 1 2003, 02:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "QUOTE It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities."
"The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities, it has spike which is extremely competant at what it does. You can't, however, expect to go alien with any class and have the same ability to attack."
Erm.... now, stop me if I'm wrong, but I think I said IF lerks had zero offensive abilities. You seem to have missed that. Secondly, I don't expect to do the same killing with an Onos as I do with a lerk, but at the same time thats apples and oranges. The crux of the matter is lerks are not "only" support troops, and gorges aren't "only" builders. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Right, after the rubbish at the start of this post, lets get to the meat.
I never said you said anything but IF...but my point is that regardless of a spore move to hive 3 swapping with umbra and primal scream down the roster, they still have spikes. You spoke as if moving spore would take a lerks offensive capability completely, and I've never personally said that spike should be removed or nerfed...so I can only assume you thought that removing spores from hive 1 is a removal of ALL (hence the ZERO) offensive capabilities for a lerk.
Maybe you just worded that wrong? You claim gorges aren't only builders...you're right...they're also a support class of their own. They support aliens by building defenses, by building res, and by taking out enemy buildings that'll aid to the enemies fight against the aliens. In this respect they're not "builder" aliens at all.
In the same sense Lerks are a support class, and they do this by defending or boosting group alien performance in combat...except with spore.
Onoses are an attack class...all of their abilities are there to take out and hurt both structures and marines. Fades are an attack class, all of their abilities are there mainly to take out marines and small or weak structures. Skulks are a scout/attack class. All of their abilities are about checking the lay of the land and then savagely attacking marines or outposts, providing a key to hive sight.
So...seeming every alien here has one specific sort of...task...that all their abilities show...
(lets go over this again...onoses are the heavy hitters, fades are the troop hurters, skulks are the all round scouts and general busy bodies...then again they are the spawning class...gorges are DEFENSIVE support, as they help defend area's and aid aliens that are on the retreat...lerks on the other hand are ATTACKING support, all their abilities bar one there to help aliens on the attack.)
As I said above, the lerk is the odd one out. Spore doesn't aid to the support of a group alien attack, nor a single alien attack, all it does is annoy marines and up the lerks kill count.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"What? In the maps where lerking is a problem it doesn't matter *where* you build you're still spore bait."
Do feel free to list these maps. I consider a "lerk problem" to be one where the lerk can spore without getting shot at. This means vents, not two doorways either side of base. Two spring to mind where there's a vent in base, and in both maps things can be built out of sight of the vents. Both vents can also be welded. Lerk problem? Marine incompetence. Weld the holes, when the lerk dies it won't be coming back unless it can get into your base and fly to the vent from there. Build your IPs out of sight and put the PG close to them. Thus ends your lerk problem at base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hell of a display of on paper theory, it doesn't work this way in game, the only maps on which I know lerks to be dissadvantaged by welded vents are Caged and Tanith...and on tanith the very valuable double res point is extremely open to sporing in any corner or length from the vent in that room. In caged it is the same with the double res point there.
Also you may not consider a door with a corner and a long coridoor behind it...all of which are ten meters away from where a marine spawns...as something that gives the lerk a bit of impunity to spore...maybe it's another of your on paper theories, but plenty of lerks don't need vents to have an effect, marines ignoring them or not.
"No, it's certainly effective, but more effective than tying up stupid marines and sending just about every marine that is spawning out with a third less health than he should have at least? I don't think so."
Each to our opinions. Spore is effective against a niche group, psy scream against any group. I tend to rate flexibility when it comes to effectivity <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're talking first hive, this is no niche group, it is everyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"it's that the lerk isn't a team player at the first hive."
Again, I put this squarely at the feet of the player. A skulk can rambo off at game start and not be missed because he's only a skulk. He won't get a lot of kills unless he's good, and while you're attacking one marine there's usually two shooting at you. The lerk however, can be used by any chimp with a mouse and the ability to aim. And can get masses of kills if the comm screws up.
Now, at the same time, I've seen games where ONE skulk has got into base, smashed both IPs and when the comm leapt out, killed him too. I don't blame the skulk, I don't say he's not a team player, instead what I see is a comming mistake which killed the team.
The lerk just does this better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference here is that the lerk can't be defended against prior to its attack, even if the lerk takes 5 minutes to get there. The lerk doesn't utilise comming mistakes, no matter how much you want to live in this fantasy land of something like 95% of every map being completely unsporable to lerks without them coming within 5 meters of marines, it simpl dominates out of character in the early game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"I'm an alien player annoyed that the support unit I should have is doing bugger all to support me, mostly because the lure of easy kills and a relatively easy game is too much to draw a lerk out of doing anything but sporing."
Yeah but at the same time we have gorge players dropping chambers for their own benefit, not that of the team. Whats the solution? Force voting chambers? So then the gorge just makes huge pointless OC walls. How do we counter that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats completely different...no OC wall is pointless...ok, well maybe the OC wall put right at the back of a hive, or in a vent...yeah they'd be useless...but any OC wall in a map is there and is a threat to marines with a reason. If a gorge wants to spend his res doing that, fair play to him, thats like another 30-50 res on top of the res he should have spent on a Res tower AND evolving...fair play to him.
The lerk on the other hand is just whoring for his own res and whoring for kills...and he's an atacking suport unit? At least the over zealous gorge has done his dumb thing in a defensive support manner!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please reread my quote. Adrenaline. Gullible marines. If you define killing machine as 20 kills in two seconds, then no, its not a killing machine. If you define it as killing lots of people before it dies, then yes, its a killing machine. Second, you'll note no mention of spores. The point illustrated is that you can't expect an alien to stick to its "class".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can fully expect an alien to stick to its class unless it's in a strange or improbable situation, I don't know about you...you obviously can't.
I on the other hand see that Gorges don't have the abilities or strength to be an attacking support unit, and I'll be damned if I can see an onos or a fade being the support abunch of skulks needs to take out a large base quickly. The only thing that can do it properly and well is a lerk, and what's the use if he's off being a "killing machine"?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No. You can acid spit marines to death. You can web them and do the same. You can build offensive OC nests (rather than defensive ones). It CAN fill an attack role, and even a support role with adren and spammed healspray. Again, the point is that it is NOT restricted to "just building".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah...you *can* acid spit marines to death, but in all likelyhood how many in a row before you need to go hide and heal or whatever will you acid spit. One? Same as lerk spikes there. Web is a third hive ability and tbh at third hive there is a little distortion of the rules as everything should be bent at three hives towards total domination and restriction of the marine team. A gorge in an attack role (the offensive OC's) will not do such a thing and survive at hive one, and those OC's won't stay there long.
A gorge at hive one and probably even hive two CAN'T fill an adequette attck role, however is can support from outside the attack zone with mini bases, heals and the quick destruction of essential enemy structures (res towers). A gorge unless facing idiots, or until it's hive three, cannot realistically battle gorge and survive...which seems to be at least some part of the point you're making.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"One base rush as a skulk and gestation had me in a vent in the marine base just inside a minute."
Which map? Again, how can we blame the lerk if the comm shoved an IP under your nose? What exactly is "essential building"? In all the venty maps (iirc) the CC is wayyy out of sight of the vent. You can stick two IPs beside it with impunity, and an armoury too. No spore will touch you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter which map, there is little difference between them. And I think you miss the point. An IP doesn't need to be "under your nose" as a lerk, because if spores are lerk snot, then your nose can reach quite a damn distance. And beyond that it can lay its spores all the way around the base the marine might run, and all the way up the coridoor too you and/or your vent anyway. Your theory of lerks not having the access to spore a marine base against a good commander is put under the assumption that you have to spore a precise spot, and you only get one chance at it before all guns are on you. This isn't the case in game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what? So the lerk isn't sporing all over the marines and laughing its head off. And the lerk should be nerfed because the people playing it don't teamplay? Because marines don't relocate? By that logic, why not nerf marines, since they dont teamplay either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lerk shouldn't be nerfed, why is this being seen as a nerf thread? Lerks should be reattuned into the role they're supposed to do. Idiots that just sit around sporing might cry nerf, but any lerk that truely uses their abilities to help support will if anything find themselves better able to do the job.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem, as I see it.
Most Lerk players don't teamplay Most Marines don't know how to cope with Lerks.
The solutions:
Beat them all with the nerfing stick! Make sieges target lerks! Take the lerk out of the game! Remove everything from the lerk except for Umbra and Psychic Scream! Educate marines on how to combat lerks!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarcasm has got you no-where, and I dont' know how many times I have to tell you that if a lerk is (as you've said a few times) so far away it's not possible to kill it, you shouldn't be payign attention to it...marines often realise this now...however they're still affected by the lerks actions if they do. This feels wrong to me and a few other people that have spoken here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm concerned that switching the spore to something else would seriously affect the balance of the game. Nerfing the spore will only cripple those who use lerks properly. In my opinion, nerfing spore because marines run into plain sight of a lerk is like nerfing devour because players stand still. You're penalising one player for the incompetence of another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?! using the lerks properly? Almost anyone using spore in a group attack at anything other than hive one is not playing lerks properly. And I'll say this again, moving spores to hive three isn't a nerf, it's a reattunement to it's true status.
And FFS how can you compare the RANGED spore to devour? It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down an onos to get devoured...almost every key area of the map has a spot that a lerk can spore from at least 20 meters away if it tries, and can get away in a matter of seconds. Running into devour and getting punished for it, and simply being in a room of significance and getting spore rained down on you are two very different things and CERTAINLY not worthy of analogising together. A marine running into plain sight of a lerk is like a human being born for christ sake...a marine being close enough to be devoured happens only in very specific circumstances.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sort out the clipping roof problems and keep the marines educated on how to cope with lerks. That'll solve the bulk of problems, imho. The rest is down to the lerk players themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, no doubt that will help...however it won't solve the issue that lerks have an ability at first hive that allows them to forgoe their task of support.
If we can keep our replies a little more in tune with the last half yours and my posts, I think that'd help things too... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
There is no denying lerks are slightly overpowered. And the point has been made: this support unit isn't supporting early game.
Scenario 1- You started a game as kharaa. You want to lerk. You lerk. You fly over to the marine base. Do you:
A) Spore thinking, "Yes I'm going to kill all these marines and get some res, and slow them down, blah blah blah"
B) Spore thinking, "Oh the skulks are on their way here! I must weaken the marines a bit so the skulks will only need to bite once."
Almost anybody will tell you that they usually lerk with the intent of A. Trust me. Ask if you want. And by the way, option A is NOT a way of thinking how to support your team.
Scenario 2-You are in main base busily building a turret factory. Suddenly green gas forms around you. You know what it is. Do you:
A) Chase the Lerk, and confront him after running through 2 more of his clouds that were spread on his path when he saw you were chasing him.
B) Ignore him and hope you can finish the TF and the three turrets that will be placed after that even thought you are dying every 10 seconds.
C) Learn to aim, even though the Lerk only appears for one second to spore, and spends his other second flying 100 meters away out of sight before you look around the corner.
I don't think any of these choices are very appealing. Do you? Choice C will teach you how to shoot skulks, but that's not the point.
Scenario 3- You've just got owned by a lerk in a one-on-one battle with him in a hallway because you couldn't shoot him. Do you:
A) Try again, and probably have the same result, because your skill didn't increase
B) Practice hard. Grab a friend of yours into a LAN game, force him to drop movement chambers all over a room, then turn to a Fade and Blink nonstop while you practice by trying to kill it in twenty seconds (about twice the amount of time that you have to kill the lerk before you die)
C) Stay away from the hallway. The lerk will kill your buddies, or get bored and go harass and outpost.
Again, there shouldn't be an alien that leaves you with only bad choices. Now let's compare this to a Skulk.
Scenario 4- You are defending base. Suddenly, three skulks rush in, and you have no turret support. Do you:
A) Shoot the skulks and possibly kill one or two.
B) Dodge like mad, using your structures as obstacles for the skulks, and wait for backup.
C) Run. Don't look back. Die.
In this case, you see the skulk right there. You can shoot it. Or dodge it. Unfortunately, the lerk is only visible for as long as he needs to be to use spore. After that he's back around the corner, regening if you had the reaction to empty a few lmg bullets into him. I wouldn't think it possible to dodge lerk spores either if the spores were spammed.
Now, there's the case of switching hive abilities umbra and spore so that spore is second hive ability. This isn't so bad. Here's a scenario pretending spore is second hive:
Fantasy Scenario- Kharaa have spent 5 minutes to complete hive two; they spent the first two minutes fighting over a double resource room, which they lost, and the third and a half minute the hive was going up. You lerk and have fun with spore for about 2 minutes. Suddenly, HA start appearing, just about midway between you getting your second hive and third hive, considering it wasn't locked down.
Here are the good points:
A) With HA going up a few minutes after the second hive, the marines have at least 1/4th of their team rendered immune to spores. Now you at least have a counter for hits. And spore isn't totally useless.
B) If you have HA, you have hmgs and nades. Nades are great for one-hit kos on lerks that are careless.
C) You have a better resource flow, so turrets are actually useable in numbers bigger than three. And they can't be spored.
Bad points:
A) Umbra might make skulks a little too strong against the undefended resource outpost early game. EDIT: This is an outpost with 3 turrets to guard a tf and a res node. Undefended meant there were no marines nearby.
B) Lerks have to rely on spikes now, turning them into a class that requires much skill.
<!--QuoteBegin--#Ha.Ze-+Aug 31 2003, 03:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (#Ha.Ze- @ Aug 31 2003, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The STG44 is not a support class. Its one of the first correctly made assaults rifles in history. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Assault Rifle... or Support Rifle?!
How bout this, Rines get a gas mask that is handed out by comm at a res of maybe 5 or 10, but wait im not done yet. I say, develop some new structure at a cost of 15 or 20, that would combat the gas at the site of a CC, only at a CC, seeing how rines would drop it at every outpost if they could. This would get rid of spawn camping problems, and the gas masks would combat ubursporing by 3 lerks at an outpost , (which ill say, no matter what, 3 lerks sporing an outpost, without HA is impossible to combat as rines, and any good alien team uses lerks, If im on aliens, i typically go lerk, unless I dont feel like being a cheapass)
This would change the aspect of lerks a lot, They wouldnt be able to spore rines at outposts as easily
Also, a lot of arguments for the lerk has been that he is sitting there not helping his team, I know you guys arent stupid, but come on, he is sitting, racking up kills, and what do people get when they kill things, RES. What can you get with res, Fades and Onos. Simple.
I think your post makes a lot of sense, and has reitterated a lot of things I've said, probably a little better.
I do, however, think people are looking at these swpas the wrong way.
Currently people are saying...well spores work against 100% of people at the first hive, 80% at second hive at least, and 0-100% at hive three.
The way I look at it is...right you have two hives up, you have Spores and Umbra. Now the marine as you say has a lot of res, and before the third hive is up, he's got HA teams on the march, half the team. As a good lerk you're there protecting and supporting your team...but it's no use. Your first hive is lamed up, but this one isn't, and your seoncd hive goes down as the third starts building.
****...now you're back down to first hive abilities...the game is 16 minutes through and you only have spore again...and the marines you need to be worrying about are HA. What can you do as a lerk? The answer is nothing. A couple of HA guys start building an outpost outside your first hive...what can you do? the answer is nothing. You've only got spores.
NOW, if umbra was first hive ability, you could give that area a nive lovely smattering of yellow gas, and your skulks could have a bit more of a chance to take out those HA's. That onos that just lost stomp ability on the way to the second hive can have a bit of cover to counter the HA properly even though you only have one hive.
Great eh? Assuming Umbra is balanced you have done it, you've stopped one surge!
So your third hive goes up now (meaning you have two hives)..great back to Sporing and Umbraing, and you're 20 minutes into the game.
But your spores still do **** at this point, they do nothing because the marines ae getting back in their HA...they have the res.
Your team has cleared out the second hive, and it's rebuilding...the marines are taking their time (yes yes, this is hypothetical, but bare with me)...and the third hive goes up! Yay! primal scream!
we're a good 26 minutes into the game now, and it's been going on a bit, slowly but steadily....marines are now ALL kitted out, spore is 100% USELESS. They start building an outpost, you try to support, but man there are 6 marines out there, they're not taking any ****, they're welding each other too. They siege your first hive. They make short work of it too.
Now, your ability to help take out outposts has gone with that third hive! you're left with umbra (against a **** load of HA's, it's useful but I'll be damned if its saving you) and spore that does nothing.
If at this stage you were left with umbra to help save your alien friends, and primal scream...an alien team THAT WORKED AS A TEAM could really really have a counter to HA trains, primal scream to mangle those HA's, and umbra to keep them alive longer.
But no, they just have spore, and as good as umbra is, it's doing nothing with the meds being put down...sorry...end of that hive.
The marines get kitted out...32 minutes gone, and they're moving on the third hive now. Right...now they're building an outpost. Again, if you had primal scream and umbra, you might be able to counter them with a bit of luck and extreme team work...with spore and umbra you can't.
---
So there you have it...with PROPER BALANCING, a lerk change as I've detailed will actually give aliens a counter to HA trains, the only thing in the game that currently doesn't have an effective counter if the aliens are on the back foot on res.
I'm not looking at it as "oh the aliens dominate, in the 13th minute get their third hive and now have spores", I'm looking at it as though the games gone on 20 minutes, and the lerk is restricted to spores despite not having any use for it at all. it's not like skulk bite which on its own is inneffectual to HA but does a little bit at least...no matter how much or how many spore...it still does ZERO damage to the marines in HA...and at this point it'll be all of them.
And don't bother replying if you're just going to say "omg but Umbra at hive one and Primal scream at hive two would be so unballanced...this this and this would happen!" because a) you simply don't know that it would happen, and b) any changes like this would need to be balanced, and it's not my job, but the dev's and PT's to do such a thing should the idea be taken on board.
<b>***my sincerest apologies if this has already been mentioned but i really don't wanna read through 7 pages...***</b>
i think the best way to 'fix' the lerk is to make the spore and umbra attacks switch spots. early lerks can be very irritating early-game because you cant go down a corridor without being gassed to near death then spiked till you die. I believe lerks should be more o a support class and be given the spore as the second hive ability.
having umbra replace spore would make it great for supporting skulks in a quick rush or to protect itself when it spikes up some marines. Spore at 2nd hive woulddnt be that bad either. usually when the second hive goes up marines have another area secured so they wont be traped in a room being gassed to death by a lerk that ducks in and out of a hallway. marines probably woulddnt have HA yet anyways, so spore would still be useful until the heavies start stomping towards it.
About the gas mask and special anti-gas structure issue...
Well, the gas mask would help marines against the Spores at outposts... but what would prevent them to keep their gas masks outside their outpost, at the hives, in the corridors? Well, nothing. So the Spore ability would be rendered useless whatever the situation.
A structure that would be availible only near CC wouldn't help much either: isn't that obvious that you can drop a CC at an outpost, thus enabling the outpost to have it's own anti-spore counter-measure? Even, if it was IP-radius building, this wouldn't help resolve the issue: the spore ability would be rendered useless here too. And even if this modificiation would pass -and I don't think it should- , I would just wonder on the psychological impact of this on marines grunt: Com: "Stop Humping To This Gaz-Area-Ventilating Structure and Move to your WP!" Rine: "And say bye-bye to our only way to prevent us from dying from spore-mass-indigestion? Okay, but hand out the HAs then" ....
This being said, since the debate oriented itself toward the swaping of spore and umbra (thus from 1st hive ability to 2nd and vice-versa), my reaction about that is that I... wouldn't care.
I'm usually *waiting* for the second ability to show up along with the second hive. And having the benefit of a third hive is even better. So if Umbra was to be given as the first ability to the Lerk, well, that's ok to me: I won't have to wait anymore before being able to provide a suitable assistance to my fellows. But wouldn't spore be rendered useless here too?
I don't mean useless as in "no producing any effect at all" but in "would the interest remain?". Regarding to my gameplay, I don't think that I would bother switching from my 1st hive ability to my second, if Umbra and Spores were inverted. Lol! I would even say that getting that so long awaited second hive wouldn't matter to me anymore <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> the second hive would just be the necessary step toward the 3rd hive ability, that is Primal Scream.
I know by saying that that I mean that spore isn't of the greatest interest, but that's my personal thought. I use spores at the beginning because it's the only ability I have along with spikes, and since I'm not completely dumb, I try to use it in the best proper way I can in order to help my teamates. But once I get Umbra, I pretty say "babye!" to Spores as my "primary" weapon.
Does it mean that it could be totally removed? No, it's still useful, to cover a retreat for exemple -assuming the marines dont have Heavies, and slow down your opponents for example.
Now if primal scream and Umbra were availible by the second hive up, it would be even better, I wouldn't (as a Lerk) care for the third hive to be built since my favorite abilities would already be accessible.
Still, the xample provided by Lee is very interesting, since I've seen a lot of games where, being a Lerk, I saw our 2nd hive rise, then get sieged and lost, a 3rd being put up, then get destroyed, and by the time, the marine team only coming in heavy armors, and seeing myself having as sole possibility to try to spike them, since spores would affect no-one; or evolve into another kind of alien in order to provide a better response than my lerk possibilities would allow.
In this perspective, Umbra as a 1st hive ability would sounds good. My only question is, as Lee said it, maybe Umbra should be nerfed a little bit because of it's relegation to 1st hive ability, then should Spore be powered up in the same way, since it would become a 2nd (or third) hive ability?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Ack! Musn't.... agree.... with Myth.
Damn. I have to. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
k, i know its not good to reply wi th out reading ANY of the posts 'cept the title, but w/e gotta save time to play ns =P
anyways, i was in this game, and was wa tching this hacker.... we all knew he hacked, and i was recording it =) (o ****, i just remembered i didnt get his wonid.... damn) anyways, he was hacking, but doin a pretty bad job at it.... his aimbot was malfuntional, cuase it was a crappy hack.... anyways, i was watchin him shoot at a lerk with a hmg... i saw the cross hair a bit BEHIND the lerk while it was flying past
(ok yes tahts a crap ascii pic) and he shot iunno, 5-15 hmg bullets there, and killed the lerk.... is it because the actual object and the pictures arent aligned right? lo iunno.... anyways, if u want the demo, aim me at foodforarabbit its 5 megs
edit: if u want to aim me pm me first cause i dont use aol unless someone wants to aim me
<!--QuoteBegin--Mythr1l+Sep 1 2003, 01:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mythr1l @ Sep 1 2003, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lerks are the poorest armour'd unit in the game, dunno why your having problems killing them, ur aim must suck. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *sigh* and learn to read, mythr1l.
<!--QuoteBegin--JeeR+Sep 1 2003, 10:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JeeR @ Sep 1 2003, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now if primal scream and Umbra were availible by the second hive up, it would be even better, I wouldn't (as a Lerk) care for the third hive to be built since my favorite abilities would already be accessible.
Still, the xample provided by Lee is very interesting, since I've seen a lot of games where, being a Lerk, I saw our 2nd hive rise, then get sieged and lost, a 3rd being put up, then get destroyed, and by the time, the marine team only coming in heavy armors, and seeing myself having as sole possibility to try to spike them, since spores would affect no-one; or evolve into another kind of alien in order to provide a better response than my lerk possibilities would allow.
In this perspective, Umbra as a 1st hive ability would sounds good. My only question is, as Lee said it, maybe Umbra should be nerfed a little bit because of it's relegation to 1st hive ability, then should Spore be powered up in the same way, since it would become a 2nd (or third) hive ability? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Eyyyyy!
finally someone is actually considering what I'm saying in their own perspective other than "omg ur aim suX0rz!111"
I think the more people try to realise that it's not useless to have spore at third hive if you're winning, but it is pointless to have spore at hive 1 if you're losing (especially in long games), then you'll begin to see one of my beefs with lerks...along side the fact that lerks aren't decent support units at hive one currently.
Infact Jeer, you've just added a bit of weight to my point, because if you play a lerk to be a support unit, and you are mainly waiting/hoping to get your second and third hive abilities...doesn't that show that true lerk players would benefit more, as would the alien team, from a balanced three way ability swap?
<!--QuoteBegin--RaVe+Sep 1 2003, 02:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RaVe @ Sep 1 2003, 02:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only way to make sure you are lerk free is to get a SG for ceiling huggers and GLs for those pop-in-and-out-of-the-vent lerks
But it can be a real pain when you're up against a regen lerk who's constantly hugging the ceiling :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> With an LMG, a pistol and a bit of luck, I usually take lerks down even if they're in the ceiling. If they don't get stuck on ledges and jutts, however, then it's quite random, usually I don't know exactly where I'm aiming so I generalise, which means less bullets hitting the actual target.
But then thats when they're close, and no-one has denied that a lerk within 10 meters, or a lerk simply standing still at 30 meters is a challenge to kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->finally someone is actually considering what I'm saying in their own perspective other than "omg ur aim suX0rz!111"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The "omg!..." things start to make me laugh each time I read it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the more people try to realise that it's not useless to have spore at third hive if you're winning, but it is pointless to have spore at hive 1 if you're losing (especially in long games), then you'll begin to see one of my beefs with lerks...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For having experienced it, all I can say is that's so true... I think we both agree on that. Now I wonder on how the dev team thought about the whole thing. I'm not saying that they didn't do the job right (I think they did an <b>AWESOME</b> job! I'll never cease to be grateful, ever! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ), but mainly how did they thought a "standard" party should run?
Understanding that may help understand the reason of the actual order of hive abilities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Infact Jeer, you've just added a bit of weight to my point, because if you play a lerk to be a support unit, and you are mainly waiting/hoping to get your second and third hive abilities...doesn't that show that true lerk players would benefit more, as would the alien team, from a balanced three way ability swap?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, to tell you the way I'm thinking: I picked up the Lerk on my first plays as an alien because it could fly and was very fast, what was alot of fun to me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Then, after better examination, it appeared that it was the only alien having to it's disposal an "arsenal" of support abilities (mainly Umbra and Primal Scream). Since I like the idea of supportive classes and the fact that I play NS mainly because of it's cooperative dispositions, the Lerk became my favourite alien class.
Now,there is the spore ability. It gives the Lerk a little bit more of versatility: in the official manual itself, the Lerk is said to be both a "supportive" and a "guerilla unit" or something like that, specialist of harrassment that is.
So we can mainly encounter two/three categories of players playing Lerks: -the guys/girls playing mostly for the support aspect -the ones playing mostly for the guerilla aspect -the ones playing both of the previously named aspects in an hybrid way (depending on circonstancies etc)
So I think we could say that there are three kinds of "true lerk players" if the definition of the lerk trully is "supportive" and a "guerilla unit" .
Plus! We have to count another category: The ones who dedicate themselves at overusing the guerilla aspect -i.e. over-sporing.
If the dev team thought about the Lerk in the above terms, then the fact that this fourth category of players exists can't be helped. There'll always be this kind of players. Now what's amazing is the number of those said players...
As I tend to fit in the 3rd category because of the fact that Spore is a 1st hive ability, now if we put it as a 2nd or 3rd hive ability, what will happen?
Well people like me will certainly be ok with that, since we could then dedicate ourselves to provide support to our teamates. The guerilla aspect won't probably matter anymore by the way (in the case of spores being 3rd hive ability). And the ones overusing spores... well they'll probably quit chosing Lerk or either change their mind and try to be more supportive if they are real Lerk fanboys...
Hmmm....
Finally this would be great then... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still had more to add, but as I have to go shortly, I shall leave this post like that for now.
too true...and I don't want to neglect the Guerrilla aspect, otherwise I'd say that spore needs to be taken out and replaced...however I think that a lerk shouldn't be doing such a task so early in the game really.
And yeah, it'd be cool to get a devs word on it as you say, how they were thinking and such.
This starts bad, but improves at the end. I'm not editing it any further than that but please get to the bottom and read the attempt at reconciliation before replying?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Right, after the rubbish at the start of this post, lets get to the meat."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I'm so cut. Any other pointless flaming you want to try? I note you've AGAIN chopped out half of the topic, because it would be hard to counter if, gasp, you read all of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"I never said you said anything but IF"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets reread it shall we?
Me - "If lerks had ZERO offensive abilities"
You - "The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities"
Did you answer the if? Nope, sidestepped it and created your own, convenient argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"so I can only assume you thought that removing spores from hive 1 is a removal of ALL (hence the ZERO) offensive capabilities for a lerk."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, feel free to totally sidestep my point. Lets look back on it in context - you complain that the lerk is not a support creature. I point out that no one kharaa is restricted to its "role". I say that IF the lerk had NO weapons, it'd be boring.
True, or false? If the gorge could not build OCs, nor acid spit, bile, or web, would people want to use it? I've spent games as gorge and thats pretty much what I've been doing because of a selfish team, and IMHO thats NOT fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Maybe you just <snip> aliens on the attack.)"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reiterates what I said in my post. No one kharaa is stuck (if you will) with one role. However I disagree with your concept of gorge. A gorge is quite capable of going on the attack, cf the infamous gorge rush.
You may well sputter and say "that doesnt work on smart marine players" but at the same time I think most smart players can cope with lerks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"As I said above, the lerk is the odd one out. Spore doesn't aid to the support of a group alien attack, nor a single alien attack, all it does is annoy marines and up the lerks kill count."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't find that to be true. Its all very much in how the lerk player applies it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"hell of a display of on paper theory, it doesn't work this way in game"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Answer the question please. I don't want to hear how lerks are disadvantaged on certain maps, I asked quite specifically for maps where the marines are disadvantaged. I notice you did not mention bases, but double nodes. IMHO double nodes are deliberately open PRECISELY so that noone can hold them all game without retribution. Otherwise NS would be the RushDoubleRes game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Also you may not consider a door with a corner and a long coridoor behind it..."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets assume Tanith marine spawn. Both doors and corridors and angled in such a way that if you're at the back wall you CANNOT be spored unless a lerk is actually IN THE BASE. If a lerk gets into base and the marines can't stop it, that is not the lerk's fault. Turrets in base can put a halt to this if difficulties arise. Lets not sidetrack on the merits of turrets in base, btw - I'm merely pointing out the counter to a lerk if he's on your doorstep. Additionally, do explain how a lerk gets to the entrance of the marine spawn and can stay there without dying. How do turrets not solve this problem?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"maybe it's another of your on paper theories, but plenty of lerks don't need vents to have an effect, marines ignoring them or not"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a pathetic argument which holds no water. Why your insistence on calling hard fact "on paper theories"? Why have you still not answered any of my questions AS STATED.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"We're talking first hive, this is no niche group, it is everyone."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, spore at first hive is only effective against foolish players who rush lerks with LMGs or comms who build IPs in plain sight of vents and doorways. While that covers a large amount of people on some servers, it is most certainly NOT everyone. Scream, however, works on anyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The difference here is that the lerk can't be defended against prior to its attack"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In some maps its called WELDING. On others, its TURRETS. On Hera, it's probably called RELOCATION.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The lerk doesn't utilise comming mistakes, no matter how much you want to live in this flame flame flame blah flame"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compare and contrast -
Lerk vs base with turrets/competent marines pointing at it, with IPs out of sight Lerk vs base with IPs beside vent and marines humping ammo at an armory also in plain sight beside said IPs
One of those is a comming mistake. The other is not. Rather handily, the comming mistake is the one that gets the most kills. You might blame the ammo humpers - a good comm takes this into account and has the ammo somewhere safe.
Let us consider NS_Caged. Can a lerk in the vent shoot the CC spawn room? Why, no. Is there space in the CC room for two IPs? Yes. In the small corridor before the CC spawn room, can you place an armory thats still out of sight of the vent? Why, yes of course. Tanith - has a clear wall out of sight of the corridors.
These aren't fantasy lands, these are the maps used in the game. And on maps where the base is open (Hera, prime example), you've more to worry about than a lerk. You can win Hera with ONE skulk alone. Again, comming errors are to blame.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"If a gorge wants to spend his res doing that, fair play to him, thats like another 30-50 res on top of the res he should have spent on a Res tower AND evolving...fair play to him.
The lerk on the other hand is just whoring for his own res and whoring for kills...and he's an atacking suport unit? At least the over zealous gorge has done his dumb thing in a defensive support manner!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And gorges can build OC and hug them for kills. And he's a defensive support unit? At least the over zealous lerk has done his dumb thing in a OFFENSIVE (attacking) manner.
Again, the question you missed - how do you counter Gorges who only look out for themselves? Nerf gorges? Force chamber votes? Just because SOME gorge players are a few slices short of a loaf?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can fully expect an alien to stick to its class <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge building DC and MC, healing near enemy base. Gorge building OC and webbing, healing it's own chambers. Gorge bilebombing an enemy base before webbing the marines on their own IP and spitting them.
Three different roles, one alien. One of which doesnt even involve building. Lerks, skulks, fades, onos, all the same. While each has a key role, they certainly dont have to stick with it. You CAN see that, yes?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A gorge in an attack role (the offensive OC's) will not do such a thing and survive at hive one, and those OC's won't stay there long<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I beg to differ from experience. And especially so if they have MCs, with the gorge only needing to build chambers and hide near them to spam heal when the shooting stops. Good, and DEVASTATING against uncoordinated marines. Does that mean the gorge needs nerfed because it takes advantage of marine incompetence?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your theory of lerks not having the access to spore a marine base against a good commander is put under the assumption that you have to spore a precise spot, and you only get one chance at it before all guns are on you. This isn't the case in game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because I've played lerks, as have many people on the forum, I believe. I know how the cloud works. I know how to aim to get the furthest reach. And I STILL cant hit the CC in Caged without leaving the vent (and thus inviting turrets to kill me) or some miracle occurs and all the marines are mentally deficit. Second, if you want to play with semantics, fine. The question stands, and AGAIN you have not answered - *is it the lerks fault that he can see an IP from a vent/doorway*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk shouldn't be nerfed, why is this being seen as a nerf thread? Lerks should be reattuned into the role they're supposed to do. Idiots that just sit around sporing might cry nerf, but any lerk that truely uses their abilities to help support will if anything find themselves better able to do the job. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving spore is a definite nerf. I find it moderately amusing that anyone who disagrees with you is posting flame, or nonconstructive information, or the implication that anyone who says "nerf" is some sort of spore abusing lerk player...... yet the people who back you up are great, super, wow they're so cool.
Are you here to discuss or toss insults?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sarcasm has got you no-where<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I took the time to read everyone's post, and I wasn't the first to resort to pithy insults about other posters. Take your own medicine, lets cut the guff and get to the hard facts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> dont' know how many times I have to tell you that if a lerk is (as you've said a few times) so far away it's not possible to kill it, you shouldn't be payign attention to it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not reread my posts, with extra attention to the words please. I've said several times now (and you'll note there's no edit text, so they were certainly there first) that if you can't kill it, LEAVE IT. So cut out this one track record and do me the courtesy of answering the questions I raise in my posts. I do the same for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Almost anyone using spore in a group attack at anything other than hive one is not playing lerks properly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone dropping 3 OCs and sitting beside the spamming heal on the chambers and IGNORING other players isnt playing gorge properly either. That doesnt mean I start a topic demanding the gorge building ability be "reattuned". If a lerk doesnt team play, that is the fault of the PLAYER. Marines jumping down holes doesn't mean we should remove all holes from the map - it means we just cope with silly players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And FFS how can you compare the RANGED spore to devour?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if you'd read the part you quoted, BOTH devour and spore rely heavily on marine incompetence to be ridiculously effective. Before you cut and clip and take this out of context, consider that sporing intelligent marines will only give you so many kills. Devouring intelligent marines has the same effect. Sporing foolish marines gets you lots of kills, stomp devouring rambos does the same. Both are considered abusive, beginner strategies and BOTH rely on foolish marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down an onos to get devoured...almost every key area of the map has a spot that a lerk can spore from at least 20 meters away if it tries, and can get away in a matter of seconds. Running into devour and getting punished for it, and simply being in a room of significance and getting spore rained down on you are two very different things and CERTAINLY not worthy of analogising together<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down a lerk to get spored...almost every key area of the map has a spot that an Onos can devour from at least X meters away if it tries, and can get away in a matter of seconds. Running into a spore cloud and getting punished for it, and simply being in a room of significance and getting stomp/devoured are two very different things, and CERTAINLY not worthy of analogising together.
Sound familiar?
A marine in plain sight of a lerk at spawn has either been a victim of diabolical building placement or a diabolical team. If I get spored from a doorway, its because the comm/team aren't covering them. If I get spored from a vent, its because the comm dumped my IP too close to the LOS from a vent.
Do I scream "nerf the lerk! Move the spores to hive 3, so we all have HA and they can't possibly damage my fragile body!". No. I point out to the comm that his IP placement was flawed, and then MOVE ON.
Now I digress, and we're all getting a little heated, but please, in our posts, lets cut out the "Right, after the rubbish at the start of this post, lets get to the meat.", I'll cut out my sarcasm, and we'll get to the crux of the issue. We're both obviously competent players with an interest in game balance.
In polite terms, my argument
Marine bases are lerk havens if badly made. If Comms are silly enough to build IPs in sight of or in range of lerk vents, then that is the Comms fault. Lerks will be abused in the same manner that any class can be abused, and nerfing/reattuning any class will have a negative effect on game balance and those who use the class properly.
My solution, is better education of placement, better education of grunts, and a general raising of awareness.
Moving spore to hive 3 makes it unfeasible IMHO, because at three hives you'll be facing HA. Secondly, a one hive lockdown would make the lerk virtually wholly reliant on others - something which at 30 points is an unwise move. A gorge doesn't need to rely on others, and its a fraction of the cost.
Please address my questions, mentioned in my previous post and reiterated in this one.
Heres hoping our next posts will be on more cordial terms <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
a hmg kills a lerk in 9 shots. a lerk is easy to kill if u can surprise him. when there alot going on lerks concentrate on sporing areas and stuff, the perfect time to just gun it with the lmg.
i also think spores and umbra should switch, umbra is quite an essential tool for the aliens against shottys and hmgs cos they kill so fast. that and stomp, web as well but thats 3rd hive and that just means end of game really.
I wouldnt mind lerk been total support apart from spikes. maybe have new cloud based weapon and get rid of spores. i just thought up a think like an EMP cloud. could be made 3rd hive cos it be pretty good.
basicly the EMP cloud would stop any buildings from working that is within the cloud. so TF means turrets stop working, army means no ammo from it and no weapon drops at that army, no equip from proto. obs stops, basicly total base shutdown. although the cloud wouldnt last too long. although it would be 3rd hive, lets face it. pretty much all 3rd hive stuff is like stuff to speed up the death of marines. although maybe if its done right like lots of energy usage and the cloud dont stay long it could be 2nd hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yeah, it'd be cool to get a devs word on it as you say, how they were thinking and such.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem is i dont think devs waste thier time on the forums <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> , really do wish a dev would read this tho becuase it is a good discussion and has proof that the lerk isnt a support class that it was meant to be <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerks should have Umbra at hive 1, spores are usless at end game when your losing<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that has to be one of the most agreed factor on why the lerk isnt a support class at hive 1, spores are usless against HA's, if the rines are all ha's all your doing is spiking them while skulks are getting torn apart trying to counter it, if you nerf umbra alittle and make it a hive 1 weapon then 2 hive lockdowns can be achieved in success when an onos doesnt have any upgrades, umbra can make or break a situation like that, mabye make it stop 1/2 bullets or 1/3 to make a lerk _ skulks rush on a abse counterable in the early game
and violence, very good idea <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Sep 2 2003, 05:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Sep 2 2003, 05:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"I never said you said anything but IF"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets reread it shall we?
Me - "If lerks had ZERO offensive abilities"
You - "The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities"
Did you answer the if? Nope, sidestepped it and created your own, convenient argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"so I can only assume you thought that removing spores from hive 1 is a removal of ALL (hence the ZERO) offensive capabilities for a lerk."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, feel free to totally sidestep my point. Lets look back on it in context - you complain that the lerk is not a support creature. I point out that no one kharaa is restricted to its "role". I say that IF the lerk had NO weapons, it'd be boring.
True, or false? If the gorge could not build OCs, nor acid spit, bile, or web, would people want to use it? I've spent games as gorge and thats pretty much what I've been doing because of a selfish team, and IMHO thats NOT fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't side step anything, you were going on about If's and buts with lerks having zero weaponry with offensive capability, and I was cutting it off at the pass because at no point in any of the posts was such a thing suggested, simple as that. Your points about aliens having no weapons seems...bizarre if I'm to be honest, because at what point are we talking about stripping aliens of their ability to do anything...especially ones that it is intrinsically in the game to do?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However I disagree with your concept of gorge. A gorge is quite capable of going on the attack, cf the infamous gorge rush.
You may well sputter and say "that doesnt work on smart marine players" but at the same time I think most smart players can cope with lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gorge rush is an anomaly. You can't Fade-Build-Defenses or Onos-Heal-the-hive. the gorge rush is an anomaly that takes up a lot of res for the whole team and requires a really good team to do it. I don't see this as proof that any aliens aren't restricted to one role...it is as I say, an anomaly.
You can of course disagree all you like <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> but at the end of the day a single gorge does nothing except that which is in the interest of supporting the team defensively. The lerk should do the same but offensively.
A fade-3 skulk-one onos and lerk rush is also pretty devestating if conducted by the same level of team work as a gorge rush, however the fact that they are all gorges in a gorge rush is by no means some kind of proof that a gorge is meant for attack as well...it's just a proof that if a good team sticks to a tactic and does it well, as an alien, they can put up a good show of offensive force...whatever the combination of aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Answer the question please. I don't want to hear how lerks are disadvantaged on certain maps, I asked quite specifically for maps where the marines are disadvantaged. I notice you did not mention bases, but double nodes. IMHO double nodes are deliberately open PRECISELY so that noone can hold them all game without retribution. Otherwise NS would be the RushDoubleRes game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maps where the marines can be easily dissadvantaged against a gorge. I'd just like to remind you of course that a lerk spore will kill a basic marine in 10-11 seconds, mostly when the gas has visually dissapated too. Consider this when you take into account the size of bases and the amount of time a marine can take to get out of it towards a lerk, or away from it. I've also tried to put them in some kind of worst to best order.
Bast...nuff said I think, especially if some idiot welds the vent.
Eclipse, too easy by far. The vent in base is childs play for any lerk that knows how to fly, and with it sporing of the entire base is an easy and fairly risk free process (this was the map I managed to get to sporing their base in a minute in, taking out rushers going to maint, then going through the vent opening at horseshoe)
Lost, talk about ease of sporing. By the time any marine gets even close to an "exit point" of the base, he'll be on 50hp, and even then he's not garanteed to see the lerk (re-occuring point here, any average lerk will see a marine coming in such places and run away....you don't need a vent, you just need a good view, even with no upgrades). only counter is to build everything in the space on the rampway, however this doesn't solve the problem of a big area gassed to walk through.
Veil, Hard as hell to spore people as they spawn, but far too easy to lead people through a good 15 meters of spore cloud as soon as they leave the immediate vicinity of their buildings, leaving you with roughly 20-40 hp on the other side.
Caged, from the vent if needed, though actually the worst place to spore from. The best place is from (as you exit the base as a marine) the sewer side (right) of the base. A nice protective corner with the ability to fire spores into the arch way of the CC "tunnel" all the way up to your own position. Again, you can be on 50hp easily before you even get to the lerks position, and by the time you get there, he'll be around another corner.
Hera, their base with two exceptions...one is if everything is built on the cramped walkway, the other is if the marines huddle everything in the corner that in 1.04 used to have the vent and grating. Two very small areas. The best one, however, does take out one of those areas, and it is a lerk that flies straight through the base when it's quiet...out of the "map" to the marine start res, and goes and hides on a ledge outside the glass coridoor to heal or whatever. Apart from the walkway again, it has the whole of the map in its sights, and if it wants to hide, there is going and hiding behind the "glass" which no marine without a jetpack can get to, or on a little patch behind the crates. Nifty really.
Mineshaft, a cramped small space with a myriad of corners. Not so much an issue for a smart team that can set up ambushes, admittedly, but an arse to get out of at the best of times with a lot of cover for lerks.
Origin, This map is generally free of issue, though the door at the far end of the base by the res tower can be very nice to spore from, a single marine on base duty can keep him at bay usually though to keep him at laser drilling or further back.
Nothing, This is very much like Tanith, with a little more ease thanks to a single vent, but not really an issue.
Tanith, This map is admittedly free of issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets assume Tanith marine spawn. Additionally, do explain how a lerk gets to the entrance of the marine spawn and can stay there without dying. How do turrets not solve this problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, you certainly have me on tanith, I've not claimed at any point that all enemy start bases in NS are prone to attack, just enough of them. 6 out of 10 as it turns out with thought. Turrets don't solve the problem in the early game as most commanders I know trade off base defenses with turrets for expansion and teching anyway...BUT the main thing is a lerk doesn't have to be infront of a couple of turrets for more than a fraction of a second. Even without regeneration, that can be a lot of dinks in and out of sight of an enemy base to spore before it needs healing. Turrets do not at all phase a lerk in these circumstances. Not in my experiance anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's a pathetic argument which holds no water. Why your insistence on calling hard fact "on paper theories"? Why have you still not answered any of my questions AS STATED.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because your questions are loaded to provide an answer that benefits your argument. Not all maps, infact a minority of them, have vents at marine spawn that lerks can sue to spore with impunity from...however your question isn't a valid one because, as I stated, a good lerk doesn't need a vent, they just need enough space and a bit of cover (a turning corner). Taking that into account, you add another 3 or 4 maps that have lerk issues to the list.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, spore at first hive is only effective against foolish players who rush lerks with LMGs or comms who build IPs in plain sight of vents and doorways. While that covers a large amount of people on some servers, it is most certainly NOT everyone. Scream, however, works on anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is absolute bollocks, sorry. A marine is killed in 11 seconds max, I've found, with spore. 11 seconds. That is the length of a decent sized coridoor...it's the length generally from the archway in caged to going around the corner towards sewer. At hive one...it does affect everyone, on pretty much any map (taking into account the fact that in such a debate on "which is more effective" that sporing places of building is also counted) You know you can't technically build outside feedwater for example to set up a siege point thanks to spore? You get a TF set down, that takes...I can't remember, but it's probably just enough time to get killed if you're building it on your own by a couple of spore clouds. Then take into account the PG? The three turrets minimum? just the one siege because we're strapped for cash? That is in my books at least two deaths worth of marine, if there's three marines building...six deaths.
Damn...I mean, tbh any marine team facing that without med spam (which is an awful lot of constant res, a lot wasted too since spore is so gradual) will die before the Turrets are built. Sooooo, which is more effective, the spore cloud that effectively stops the mini-base being built, or the primal scream which enables it to be taken down faster, with possible minor alien losses.
Now of course, if the base is already built, spore becomes a little less useful compared to primal scream. That I can conceed. Does this make primal scream more effective. In my opinion it does not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In some maps its called WELDING. On others, its TURRETS. On Hera, it's probably called RELOCATION.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me go back to my original point, lerks can be in your base before you put down the non-effectual turrets, before you weld the one vent in all ten maps that will give you little aid against lerks. And if you relocate it is usually to a double res point or a hive...as you've said yourself, the double res points have to be open for obvious reasons...and the hives are also no different to that rule.
Lerk vs base with turrets/competent marines pointing at it, with IPs out of sight<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I've said above, this is only 5 out of the 10 maps at most, and this is only if the base is at marine spawn and not at popular relocate points in those maps...The other 5 maps, or Hera if not built on the walkway this doesn't apply to, because it doesn't matter where you build in those cases...you are in decent range and scope to be spored with little ability to kill the thing doing it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerk vs base with IPs beside vent and marines humping ammo at an armory also in plain sight beside said IPs
One of those is a comming mistake. The other is not. Rather handily, the comming mistake is the one that gets the most kills. You might blame the ammo humpers - a good comm takes this into account and has the ammo somewhere safe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think that all I'm talking about is the lerk sporing directly over IP's? What about the sporing of generally all around the base and around...so that you have to walk through spores to get out. Prime example of this is caged, see below.
You also over estimate the ability of turrets against lerks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let us consider NS_Caged. Can a lerk in the vent shoot the CC spawn room? Why, no. Is there space in the CC room for two IPs? Yes. In the small corridor before the CC spawn room, can you place an armory thats still out of sight of the vent? Why, yes of course. Tanith - has a clear wall out of sight of the corridors.
These aren't fantasy lands, these are the maps used in the game. And on maps where the base is open (Hera, prime example), you've more to worry about than a lerk. You can win Hera with ONE skulk alone. Again, comming errors are to blame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may have more to worry about than a lerk, but when you couple that worry WITH the lerk, it's a very bad headache indeed. As for Caged, no lerk in his right mind would spore from the vent, he would spore from either of the "coridoors" that are some way out of the base. The smart commander has built his IP's as you've said, but any lerk will still be able to spore from the very entrance to that room all the way aroud the main stay of the base area, and even up the coridoor it is for quite away should someone try to chase it down.
It's a lot of area, and while they may not be spawning in it, they certainly have to walk through it, and in caged's case, it's a lot to walk through for a weapon that will have you killed in 10-11 seconds. It's not so simple as you're making it out to be...as I said, on paper hiding the IP's might sound like the perfect plan, in game all it usually does is mean you're further from an exit and thus have more cloud to walk through.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And gorges can build OC and hug them for kills. And he's a defensive support unit? At least the over zealous lerk has done his dumb thing in a OFFENSIVE (attacking) manner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gorge that builds OCs at any point is denying the marines area...if they're built in stupid area's, however, they'll just be taken down. Yes a gorge can hug an OC for kills, but then thats generally what they're there for, the OC's...they're placed to help keep things alive, and stop things being destroyed, after all. However how has the lerk supported any of his team mates by sporing? He hasn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, the question you missed - how do you counter Gorges who only look out for themselves? Nerf gorges? Force chamber votes? Just because SOME gorge players are a few slices short of a loaf?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges can't look out for themselves without doing a modicum of help for the alien side at the same time...not realisitically. Can a gorge bilebomb a marine building for himself without it benefiting the team? Can a gorge build any building without it having the possiblity of supporting the team in some way. What you're saying is absurd, and the comparison to lerks is non-existant. The main difference being, of course, that idiot gorges that don't play for the team usually get themselves killed and as such pay for their mistakes, lerks that aren't playing for the team get spore kills and spike kills in abundance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorge building DC and MC, healing near enemy base. Gorge building OC and webbing, healing it's own chambers. Gorge bilebombing an enemy base before webbing the marines on their own IP and spitting them.
Three different roles, one alien. One of which doesnt even involve building. Lerks, skulks, fades, onos, all the same. While each has a key role, they certainly dont have to stick with it. You CAN see that, yes?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is getting boring, I've already stated that the third hive game (in which the last scenario happens) is a completely different game, as every alien is geared towards te destruction of a marine team...thats the whole purpose, so the game ends quickly. The odd one out is the lerk that has his specifically skewed offensive ability for quick dispatch of losing marines as a first hive ability.
Secondly the gorge bilebombing things (and that alone) is a support for its team...and is something that takes time and needs team support for him also (usually).
I can see that yes, at hive three, all the aliens become base wrecking marine munchers, but I can also see that before that...and most CERTAINLY at hive one, they have very specific tasks to be doing, except the lerk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I beg to differ from experience. And especially so if they have MCs, with the gorge only needing to build chambers and hide near them to spam heal when the shooting stops. Good, and DEVASTATING against uncoordinated marines. Does that mean the gorge needs nerfed because it takes advantage of marine incompetence?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not an issue, because lerk sporing can be a hastle wether the marines are incompetant or not, a point you seem to not want to grasp old of and accept. Also you seem to be slipping into the old "you can't nerf spores because they hurt marines" thing again, which I will say again <b>I am not saying, I am saying MOVE spores and rearrange lerk abilities to reattune them to the role it should be doing</b>. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, because I've played lerks, as have many people on the forum, I believe. I know how the cloud works. I know how to aim to get the furthest reach. And I STILL cant hit the CC in Caged without leaving the vent <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, if you want to play with semantics, fine. The question stands, and AGAIN you have not answered - *is it the lerks fault that he can see an IP from a vent/doorway*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On 5 maps out of ten, he has almost no choice but to be able to. on Hera he also has little choice to be able to unless the commander is happy with cramping his marines on a walkway (which some are, much to my annoyance and dispair of my jump button...damn hopping over turrets and ****... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
On the other 4 maps, you're correct, but then read above anyway, because as I've said in the last two posts, you don't have to see the IP's to have the same effect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Moving spore is a definite nerf. I find it moderately amusing that anyone who disagrees with you is posting flame, or nonconstructive information, or the implication that anyone who says "nerf" is some sort of spore abusing lerk player...... yet the people who back you up are great, super, wow they're so cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I simply don't really like discussing with people that are more free to hand out sarcasm and subtle insults themselves, hence us getting off on the wrong foot obviously. Other people that cried nerf did so in a condescending learn to aim manner, not one person that has agreed with me has, however, flamed or been condescending/sarcastic in the same manner that you and other people that are against these ideas have been.
I'm very much a do unto others kind of person mate, so as long as you show a bit of respect, then I can discuss anything with you, eevn if come the end we are both at opposite ends of the spectrum in our opinion. Just lay off the sarcasm and such (as you have been) and I'll be laying off the flame (as I hope I have been). Back to the post now? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Would you like to explain how moving the spore ability is a nerf? Before you do however, make sure you've read my detailed run down as to scenario's where marines come back after three hives thanks to tech, at which point spore can become your only weapon as a hive 1 weapon, and useless to battle those attacking you. If anything the change would boost the lerk, and so would need adequette ability balancing to make sure things were all cool.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not reread my posts, with extra attention to the words please. I've said several times now (and you'll note there's no edit text, so they were certainly there first) that if you can't kill it, LEAVE IT. So cut out this one track record and do me the courtesy of answering the questions I raise in my posts. I do the same for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm answering them, the answers don't seem to please or satiate you though. I do believe that when I said "that if a lerk is (as you've said a few times) so far away it's not possible to kill it, you shouldn't be paying attention to it" I was reitterating your ponit of "if you can't kill it, LEAVE IT" to answer your own question.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone dropping 3 OCs and sitting beside the spamming heal on the chambers and IGNORING other players isnt playing gorge properly either. That doesnt mean I start a topic demanding the gorge building ability be "reattuned".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a gorge puts down 3 OC's anywhere then it is inadvertantly good for the team anyway, as it is no doubt denying the marines some area.
If it's too close to the marine spawn, they'll be dealt with very promptly. So yet again I'm wondering where this comparison to lerks is coming from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because if you'd read the part you quoted, BOTH devour and spore rely heavily on marine incompetence to be ridiculously effective. Before you cut and clip and take this out of context, consider that sporing intelligent marines will only give you so many kills. Devouring intelligent marines has the same effect. Sporing foolish marines gets you lots of kills, stomp devouring rambos does the same. Both are considered abusive, beginner strategies and BOTH rely on foolish marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An onos that runs into a base can devour any marine that it likes, intelligent or not, and then gore the rest and run away. However to reitterate my point I was making...if the onos is just sitting there then you're quite right, only supid marines get devoured. However, with spores, you don't have to be as stupid marine to be affected, possibly greatly (even if it's not in health impact, but the inability to move from where you are to do yuor task that is essential, perhaps?), by spores.
This is why I couldn't understand your comparison to Devour, and like everything else you claim I've taken out of context, I assure you it wasn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down a lerk to get spored<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really doesn't, I don't know how much I have to stress this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do I scream "nerf the lerk! Move the spores to hive 3, so we all have HA and they can't possibly damage my fragile body!". No. I point out to the comm that his IP placement was flawed, and then MOVE ON.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I say that on half the maps in ns, how good your comm is at placing buildings, you'll get spored regardless of skill level.
Secondly, moving spore isn't a nerf, it's just a gameplay change...you obviously see it as a nerf, and I don't think I can argue with that, but unfortunately (and no offence here) you have no authority to make that claim, as you don't know how the lerk would work with the new (and tbh, radically changed) makeup of lerk abilities.
Third, just so you've got it, <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->, I don't want these changes through any specific marine based feelings, though they help me like the idea...it's very much an alien based feeling thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My solution, is better education of placement, better education of grunts, and a general raising of awareness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This however doesn't solve the issues for the alien side...not completely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Moving spore to hive 3 makes it unfeasible IMHO, because at three hives you'll be facing HA. Secondly, a one hive lockdown would make the lerk virtually wholly reliant on others - something which at 30 points is an unwise move. A gorge doesn't need to rely on others, and its a fraction of the cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I don't agree at any point here.
I'm going to re-cover some tracks here...
<b>Scenario 1. Aliens are winning easily.</b>
At first hive, the lerk helps his team with spore, at second hive a load of marine res and a mini-base is taken out with primal scream. The marines have no res, and so are just turret farming. The lerk at hive three then has spores to fire at marines to weaken them and end the game quicker, also has the other abilities.
<u>how is this different from 2.0?</u>
Essentially, come the end game, looking over all...it changed nothing, except it made the lerk go about his first hive and half of his second hive game differently. The lerk hasn't been dissadvantaged by the change at all, and the team have gained from it.
<b>Scenario 2. Aliens are losing</b>
The aliens get two hives up, they're just getting the third hive up, but marines completely control res on the map, they're raking it in. They've spent a lot of time defending the res and teching up.
Now...as the third hive goes up, a few HA marines come by your second hive and start building a siege outpost. You're in the same situation as 2.0 here. Now the marines have comm backup, and they've got this base up quick...boom after a bit the hive has gone.
****...yuo've lost spores...oh well, they're all in HA anyway, and right now I've got umbra and primal scream...
The Ha's are on the move...so I go with a bunch of skulks and a fade to take out those HA's. Now in 2.0 I'd have spore and umbra now, however as it is I now have umbra and primal scream...so what I do is I umbra up a coridoor the rines are walking down, and primal scream the skulks and fades. The four HA's get absolutely decimated in the chaos of fast action alien fury.
Trouble is that in this time 3 other HA's were setting up a sneaky little base to siege our third hive! Shite, and it's gone before we can do anything...bugger. We might have taken down a few of their res and put up our own, but we've got only one hive.
We're down to one hive...aliens are gathering their res for onos or fade if they're not fade or onos already...but we're on one hive against a res powerful HA marine team. In 2.0 as a lerk I might as well just not bother because right now all I've got is spore...but in this update, voila, umbra!
If we really pull together, coupled with the fact we took some res power from the marines, get an onos and a couple of fades...with umbra's help we might just be able to pick that HA train apart and take this game back from the brink of loss to return it to the victory that was so close at three hives!
Of course it would be very unlikely, but it would certainly help contribute to the very slim counters we currently have for HA trains.
--
Can you see where I'm coming from here? That by moving spores to third hive we make sure the lerk has to help the team, but his spores will (bar the early game) effect no more or no less marines come the third hive than it does in 2.0 anyway?
By the way, a gorge does need protecting, very much so, for it's 10 res. It's not until it spends an extra 20 res for OC's and perhaps 10 on a chamber that a gorge can become at least slightly near to being able to protect itself. Besides, a lerk is fast, it can protect itself the way any unit of its type should, by running away, not by being a bigger offensive threat than the thing it faces.
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Sep 2 2003, 06:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Sep 2 2003, 06:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yeah, it'd be cool to get a devs word on it as you say, how they were thinking and such.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the problem is i dont think devs waste thier time on the forums <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, dev's, or people that get ideas or feedback to devs, must read the forums, plenty of things have been implimented into the game from the suggestion and ideas forum to show this...I just don't think that they a) show that they have an interest unless it's ground breaking idea or b) care much for what they read <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Again, I'm glad a couple of people (in the time it took me to write that damn long reply, damn you necrosis! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) also see the view I'm taking with regard to end games and HA issues, along side the lerk not being very "support class" and thus annoyingly useless to aliens needing help in the first hive game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the lerk not being very "support class" and thus annoyingly useless to aliens needing help in the first hive game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lee, one more college thesis like that and the server may explode <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
[Not sure if this is mentioned, but I'm a lazy bum so Im not going to read everything.]
The first few debates in this thread are over the classing of Lerks as 'support' classes. This name is given to encourage their use as support classes. If they were ever geared (touch wood,) as solely support units, (ie, remove damage from umbra and replace spores with summat,) then no-one would play with them.
Precious few people play as a team, so that would be a waste of a class.
Lerk is hardly used anyway, so if the xperts can use it like it is currently being used (and get complaints like these,) then so be it.
I like playing as a lerk with regen s.o.f. and silence. With silence its easy to take out 'rines because most people dont look around they ususaly listen to see if anything is coming.
Comments
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well done Epoch after this many pages of Lerk discussion, such things have never been said, you've opened our eyes to facts that we never ever realised...oh and top marks on the scorpian reference, <span style='color:white'>baleeted</span>!
-Lee
When I join marines and have to deal with Lerks, most of my hard times come from when the Lerk "disapear" in the ceiling and is thus rendered <i>nearly</i> un-fragable. Ok, so it may give you time to close in the distance if he stays stationary, but assuming he may have seen you come in, or even not, he will probably ensure his longevity by flapping a little backward...
And then manage to spike you to death... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, most decent lerks really have no problem escaping marines...most of them have eyes for a start, and know that as soon as a marine starts running towards them the course of action is to spore them, spore the ground infront of you then fly backwards (while in the ceiling) and spore some of the coridoor infront of you.
But hey, follow Epochs in depth and well thought out post, just shoot him through the walls as the lerk flies around a corner or two, or make some educated guesses as to where the "body" of the lerk is while it jets off through the cieling <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember that once we had to deal with a Lerk hiding in a corridor near marine spawn (can't remember the map very well, maybe hera). As most of the marines were just leaving to their WPs after spawning back (which is a good thing) I just said to one of my fellow squadmate: "Hey! next time we respawn, if the lerk is still there, we go and kill him. I'll go first and shield you till we get close enough and then you kill him"
He agreed. After respawning, It took us two trips to kill the Lerk.
I dont know if it was chance, but maybe this can be a way to disable a Lerk, as long as someone is ok about shielding.
But here again, it's just teamworking, and I think that's fair enough, don't you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experiance Lerks are greedy these days, greedy for spore kills. So though you'll chase him off (and because aliens rarely put SC down first here in the UK) the lerk will only wait and come back, meanwhile I'll have hidden in a place behind him and taken him out behind. This works on so many levels with so many aliens. Pincer movements really take down aliens well, as they usually don't know what to do with people attacking from two sides.
As you say, this only works against loner lerks, and stupid ones at that...but then they're the only ones that would do such a thing.
-Lee
LoL! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Okay, more seriously <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, that's what another (obviously) more exeprienced (than I) player told me, about the "pincer" strategy a moment ago in game: it works wonders! even if my aim isn't really good, we managed to get ride of a lerk almost every time (I wasn't alone each time, so we could properly seize him in a cross-fire) he showed his nozzle near marine spawn.
The funny (sad?) thing is he kept on going at least 3times... from the same direction.. at nearly the same spot...
Maybe he didn't reallzed that he was getting slain from behind?
More obviously he didn't helped his teamates very much, even by providing an useful diversion, as the marines ultimately won the game.
It may have been a little harder if he had been assisted by a skulk or two, but as he was all alone... and as it took only two mens away from the main hot spot (sieging second hive, with one already locked) to shoot him down... His presence would have been much more appreciated there but heh! We were not going to tell him what to do in order to annoy us better <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I would have told him at the beginning of the new round, since I joined aliens, but he had left the game.
Lerks get kills early in game but later near the end, their mainly supposed to support. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The STG44 is not a support class. Its one of the first correctly made assaults rifles in history.
Anyone with the ability to push buttons can clip out a small section of a post and label it falsely.
"Or whatever, I don't care."
Look, I clipped this out, and now I'll say that means you don't care about NS, haha, how clever am I, and I don't even need to answer the rest of the post!
Back in reality, the post's opening is setting the scene. Are whining, or discussing. Discussing. Whats are offered in discussions? Solutions.
"try and make your e-**** look bigger by "giving tips" in the style of "lol learn to aim", but they're not helpful nor accurate."
If you'd read what the post said, it suggested aiming for the proper part, which IS a problem for most beginners, and secondly if you can't hit it, LEAVE IT ALONE, which is also helpful. Otherwise on a team of 8 players, 6 are sitting spraying a vent with LMG. And that directly contributes to a lerk's kill score. I'd also like you to note that there was no "lololol you sux0r, learn to aimz!".
"No, because everyone that has an ounce of sense already knows..."
So new players have no sense? Nice. And how do they learn? By people telling them, perhaps <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"No-one is claiming lerks are immoral"
GASP! Lerks do drugs! Explains the spore effects anyhow, hehe <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"QUOTE
It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities."
"The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities, it has spike which is extremely competant at what it does. You can't, however, expect to go alien with any class and have the same ability to attack."
Erm.... now, stop me if I'm wrong, but I think I said IF lerks had zero offensive abilities. You seem to have missed that. Secondly, I don't expect to do the same killing with an Onos as I do with a lerk, but at the same time thats apples and oranges. The crux of the matter is lerks are not "only" support troops, and gorges aren't "only" builders.
"Right, exactly, so take away the lerks ability to do that, and voila..."
Whoa whoa whoa...... people can't kill the lerk.. and they're not smart enough to avoid it.... so lets nerf it? Thats a rather radical leap of thought isn't it?
"What? In the maps where lerking is a problem it doesn't matter *where* you build you're still spore bait."
Do feel free to list these maps. I consider a "lerk problem" to be one where the lerk can spore without getting shot at. This means vents, not two doorways either side of base. Two spring to mind where there's a vent in base, and in both maps things can be built out of sight of the vents. Both vents can also be welded. Lerk problem? Marine incompetence. Weld the holes, when the lerk dies it won't be coming back unless it can get into your base and fly to the vent from there. Build your IPs out of sight and put the PG close to them. Thus ends your lerk problem at base.
Psych Scream-
"No, it's certainly effective, but more effective than tying up stupid marines and sending just about every marine that is spawning out with a third less health than he should have at least? I don't think so."
Each to our opinions. Spore is effective against a niche group, psy scream against any group. I tend to rate flexibility when it comes to effectivity <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"it's that the lerk isn't a team player at the first hive."
Again, I put this squarely at the feet of the player. A skulk can rambo off at game start and not be missed because he's only a skulk. He won't get a lot of kills unless he's good, and while you're attacking one marine there's usually two shooting at you. The lerk however, can be used by any chimp with a mouse and the ability to aim. And can get masses of kills if the comm screws up.
Now, at the same time, I've seen games where ONE skulk has got into base, smashed both IPs and when the comm leapt out, killed him too. I don't blame the skulk, I don't say he's not a team player, instead what I see is a comming mistake which killed the team.
The lerk just does this better.
"I'm an alien player annoyed that the support unit I should have is doing bugger all to support me, mostly because the lure of easy kills and a relatively easy game is too much to draw a lerk out of doing anything but sporing."
Yeah but at the same time we have gorge players dropping chambers for their own benefit, not that of the team. Whats the solution? Force voting chambers? So then the gorge just makes huge pointless OC walls. How do we counter that?
"QUOTE
A lerk is a support unit.... but with adrenaline and gullible marines, its a killing machine. "
"but it's not, as has been said before the spores are too slow for it to be a "killing machine"."
Please reread my quote. Adrenaline. Gullible marines. If you define killing machine as 20 kills in two seconds, then no, its not a killing machine. If you define it as killing lots of people before it dies, then yes, its a killing machine. Second, you'll note no mention of spores. The point illustrated is that you can't expect an alien to stick to its "class".
"A gorge is a builder, but can make dents in large buildings, yeah thats right...and it sticks to that."
No. You can acid spit marines to death. You can web them and do the same. You can build offensive OC nests (rather than defensive ones). It CAN fill an attack role, and even a support role with adren and spammed healspray. Again, the point is that it is NOT restricted to "just building".
"One base rush as a skulk and gestation had me in a vent in the marine base just inside a minute."
Which map? Again, how can we blame the lerk if the comm shoved an IP under your nose? What exactly is "essential building"? In all the venty maps (iirc) the CC is wayyy out of sight of the vent. You can stick two IPs beside it with impunity, and an armoury too. No spore will touch you.
"QUOTE
Clever structure placement and educated marines NEGATE a lerk advantage. Hence why so many people say "heres where to shoot them", "run off and leave them alone" or "don't build in vent ridden lerknests".
So what? That still leaves a lerk that is trying this time with a little more difficulty (as rarely does a marine team relocate or put a base anywhere where the lerks don't have some kind of getaway or cover) just to kill marines and do little else to support."
So what? So the lerk isn't sporing all over the marines and laughing its head off. And the lerk should be nerfed because the people playing it don't teamplay? Because marines don't relocate? By that logic, why not nerf marines, since they dont teamplay either.
The problem, as I see it.
Most Lerk players don't teamplay
Most Marines don't know how to cope with Lerks.
The solutions:
Beat them all with the nerfing stick!
Make sieges target lerks!
Take the lerk out of the game!
Remove everything from the lerk except for Umbra and Psychic Scream!
Educate marines on how to combat lerks!
I really don't think nerfing the Lerk is the solution to Lerks taking advantage of uneducated marines. Removing its abilities certainly won't endear it to people (woo, a wasted class, joy) and I'm concerned that switching the spore to something else would seriously affect the balance of the game. Nerfing the spore will only cripple those who use lerks properly. In my opinion, nerfing spore because marines run into plain sight of a lerk is like nerfing devour because players stand still. You're penalising one player for the incompetence of another.
Sort out the clipping roof problems and keep the marines educated on how to cope with lerks. That'll solve the bulk of problems, imho. The rest is down to the lerk players themselves.
It'd be a boring game if lerks had ZERO offensive abilities."
"The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities, it has spike which is extremely competant at what it does. You can't, however, expect to go alien with any class and have the same ability to attack."
Erm.... now, stop me if I'm wrong, but I think I said IF lerks had zero offensive abilities. You seem to have missed that. Secondly, I don't expect to do the same killing with an Onos as I do with a lerk, but at the same time thats apples and oranges. The crux of the matter is lerks are not "only" support troops, and gorges aren't "only" builders. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right, after the rubbish at the start of this post, lets get to the meat.
I never said you said anything but IF...but my point is that regardless of a spore move to hive 3 swapping with umbra and primal scream down the roster, they still have spikes. You spoke as if moving spore would take a lerks offensive capability completely, and I've never personally said that spike should be removed or nerfed...so I can only assume you thought that removing spores from hive 1 is a removal of ALL (hence the ZERO) offensive capabilities for a lerk.
Maybe you just worded that wrong? You claim gorges aren't only builders...you're right...they're also a support class of their own. They support aliens by building defenses, by building res, and by taking out enemy buildings that'll aid to the enemies fight against the aliens. In this respect they're not "builder" aliens at all.
In the same sense Lerks are a support class, and they do this by defending or boosting group alien performance in combat...except with spore.
Onoses are an attack class...all of their abilities are there to take out and hurt both structures and marines.
Fades are an attack class, all of their abilities are there mainly to take out marines and small or weak structures.
Skulks are a scout/attack class. All of their abilities are about checking the lay of the land and then savagely attacking marines or outposts, providing a key to hive sight.
So...seeming every alien here has one specific sort of...task...that all their abilities show...
(lets go over this again...onoses are the heavy hitters, fades are the troop hurters, skulks are the all round scouts and general busy bodies...then again they are the spawning class...gorges are DEFENSIVE support, as they help defend area's and aid aliens that are on the retreat...lerks on the other hand are ATTACKING support, all their abilities bar one there to help aliens on the attack.)
As I said above, the lerk is the odd one out. Spore doesn't aid to the support of a group alien attack, nor a single alien attack, all it does is annoy marines and up the lerks kill count.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"What? In the maps where lerking is a problem it doesn't matter *where* you build you're still spore bait."
Do feel free to list these maps. I consider a "lerk problem" to be one where the lerk can spore without getting shot at. This means vents, not two doorways either side of base. Two spring to mind where there's a vent in base, and in both maps things can be built out of sight of the vents. Both vents can also be welded. Lerk problem? Marine incompetence. Weld the holes, when the lerk dies it won't be coming back unless it can get into your base and fly to the vent from there. Build your IPs out of sight and put the PG close to them. Thus ends your lerk problem at base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hell of a display of on paper theory, it doesn't work this way in game, the only maps on which I know lerks to be dissadvantaged by welded vents are Caged and Tanith...and on tanith the very valuable double res point is extremely open to sporing in any corner or length from the vent in that room. In caged it is the same with the double res point there.
Also you may not consider a door with a corner and a long coridoor behind it...all of which are ten meters away from where a marine spawns...as something that gives the lerk a bit of impunity to spore...maybe it's another of your on paper theories, but plenty of lerks don't need vents to have an effect, marines ignoring them or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Psych Scream-
"No, it's certainly effective, but more effective than tying up stupid marines and sending just about every marine that is spawning out with a third less health than he should have at least? I don't think so."
Each to our opinions. Spore is effective against a niche group, psy scream against any group. I tend to rate flexibility when it comes to effectivity <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're talking first hive, this is no niche group, it is everyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"it's that the lerk isn't a team player at the first hive."
Again, I put this squarely at the feet of the player. A skulk can rambo off at game start and not be missed because he's only a skulk. He won't get a lot of kills unless he's good, and while you're attacking one marine there's usually two shooting at you. The lerk however, can be used by any chimp with a mouse and the ability to aim. And can get masses of kills if the comm screws up.
Now, at the same time, I've seen games where ONE skulk has got into base, smashed both IPs and when the comm leapt out, killed him too. I don't blame the skulk, I don't say he's not a team player, instead what I see is a comming mistake which killed the team.
The lerk just does this better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference here is that the lerk can't be defended against prior to its attack, even if the lerk takes 5 minutes to get there. The lerk doesn't utilise comming mistakes, no matter how much you want to live in this fantasy land of something like 95% of every map being completely unsporable to lerks without them coming within 5 meters of marines, it simpl dominates out of character in the early game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"I'm an alien player annoyed that the support unit I should have is doing bugger all to support me, mostly because the lure of easy kills and a relatively easy game is too much to draw a lerk out of doing anything but sporing."
Yeah but at the same time we have gorge players dropping chambers for their own benefit, not that of the team. Whats the solution? Force voting chambers? So then the gorge just makes huge pointless OC walls. How do we counter that?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats completely different...no OC wall is pointless...ok, well maybe the OC wall put right at the back of a hive, or in a vent...yeah they'd be useless...but any OC wall in a map is there and is a threat to marines with a reason. If a gorge wants to spend his res doing that, fair play to him, thats like another 30-50 res on top of the res he should have spent on a Res tower AND evolving...fair play to him.
The lerk on the other hand is just whoring for his own res and whoring for kills...and he's an atacking suport unit? At least the over zealous gorge has done his dumb thing in a defensive support manner!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please reread my quote. Adrenaline. Gullible marines. If you define killing machine as 20 kills in two seconds, then no, its not a killing machine. If you define it as killing lots of people before it dies, then yes, its a killing machine. Second, you'll note no mention of spores. The point illustrated is that you can't expect an alien to stick to its "class".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can fully expect an alien to stick to its class unless it's in a strange or improbable situation, I don't know about you...you obviously can't.
I on the other hand see that Gorges don't have the abilities or strength to be an attacking support unit, and I'll be damned if I can see an onos or a fade being the support abunch of skulks needs to take out a large base quickly. The only thing that can do it properly and well is a lerk, and what's the use if he's off being a "killing machine"?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No. You can acid spit marines to death. You can web them and do the same. You can build offensive OC nests (rather than defensive ones). It CAN fill an attack role, and even a support role with adren and spammed healspray. Again, the point is that it is NOT restricted to "just building".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah...you *can* acid spit marines to death, but in all likelyhood how many in a row before you need to go hide and heal or whatever will you acid spit. One? Same as lerk spikes there. Web is a third hive ability and tbh at third hive there is a little distortion of the rules as everything should be bent at three hives towards total domination and restriction of the marine team. A gorge in an attack role (the offensive OC's) will not do such a thing and survive at hive one, and those OC's won't stay there long.
A gorge at hive one and probably even hive two CAN'T fill an adequette attck role, however is can support from outside the attack zone with mini bases, heals and the quick destruction of essential enemy structures (res towers). A gorge unless facing idiots, or until it's hive three, cannot realistically battle gorge and survive...which seems to be at least some part of the point you're making.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"One base rush as a skulk and gestation had me in a vent in the marine base just inside a minute."
Which map? Again, how can we blame the lerk if the comm shoved an IP under your nose? What exactly is "essential building"? In all the venty maps (iirc) the CC is wayyy out of sight of the vent. You can stick two IPs beside it with impunity, and an armoury too. No spore will touch you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter which map, there is little difference between them. And I think you miss the point. An IP doesn't need to be "under your nose" as a lerk, because if spores are lerk snot, then your nose can reach quite a damn distance. And beyond that it can lay its spores all the way around the base the marine might run, and all the way up the coridoor too you and/or your vent anyway. Your theory of lerks not having the access to spore a marine base against a good commander is put under the assumption that you have to spore a precise spot, and you only get one chance at it before all guns are on you. This isn't the case in game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what? So the lerk isn't sporing all over the marines and laughing its head off. And the lerk should be nerfed because the people playing it don't teamplay? Because marines don't relocate? By that logic, why not nerf marines, since they dont teamplay either.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lerk shouldn't be nerfed, why is this being seen as a nerf thread? Lerks should be reattuned into the role they're supposed to do. Idiots that just sit around sporing might cry nerf, but any lerk that truely uses their abilities to help support will if anything find themselves better able to do the job.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem, as I see it.
Most Lerk players don't teamplay
Most Marines don't know how to cope with Lerks.
The solutions:
Beat them all with the nerfing stick!
Make sieges target lerks!
Take the lerk out of the game!
Remove everything from the lerk except for Umbra and Psychic Scream!
Educate marines on how to combat lerks!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarcasm has got you no-where, and I dont' know how many times I have to tell you that if a lerk is (as you've said a few times) so far away it's not possible to kill it, you shouldn't be payign attention to it...marines often realise this now...however they're still affected by the lerks actions if they do. This feels wrong to me and a few other people that have spoken here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm concerned that switching the spore to something else would seriously affect the balance of the game. Nerfing the spore will only cripple those who use lerks properly. In my opinion, nerfing spore because marines run into plain sight of a lerk is like nerfing devour because players stand still. You're penalising one player for the incompetence of another.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What?! using the lerks properly? Almost anyone using spore in a group attack at anything other than hive one is not playing lerks properly. And I'll say this again, moving spores to hive three isn't a nerf, it's a reattunement to it's true status.
And FFS how can you compare the RANGED spore to devour? It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down an onos to get devoured...almost every key area of the map has a spot that a lerk can spore from at least 20 meters away if it tries, and can get away in a matter of seconds. Running into devour and getting punished for it, and simply being in a room of significance and getting spore rained down on you are two very different things and CERTAINLY not worthy of analogising together. A marine running into plain sight of a lerk is like a human being born for christ sake...a marine being close enough to be devoured happens only in very specific circumstances.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sort out the clipping roof problems and keep the marines educated on how to cope with lerks. That'll solve the bulk of problems, imho. The rest is down to the lerk players themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, no doubt that will help...however it won't solve the issue that lerks have an ability at first hive that allows them to forgoe their task of support.
If we can keep our replies a little more in tune with the last half yours and my posts, I think that'd help things too... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
Scenario 1-
You started a game as kharaa. You want to lerk. You lerk. You fly over to the marine base. Do you:
A) Spore thinking, "Yes I'm going to kill all these marines and get some res, and slow them down, blah blah blah"
B) Spore thinking, "Oh the skulks are on their way here! I must weaken the marines a bit so the skulks will only need to bite once."
Almost anybody will tell you that they usually lerk with the intent of A. Trust me. Ask if you want. And by the way, option A is NOT a way of thinking how to support your team.
Scenario 2-You are in main base busily building a turret factory. Suddenly green gas forms around you. You know what it is. Do you:
A) Chase the Lerk, and confront him after running through 2 more of his clouds that were spread on his path when he saw you were chasing him.
B) Ignore him and hope you can finish the TF and the three turrets that will be placed after that even thought you are dying every 10 seconds.
C) Learn to aim, even though the Lerk only appears for one second to spore, and spends his other second flying 100 meters away out of sight before you look around the corner.
I don't think any of these choices are very appealing. Do you? Choice C will teach you how to shoot skulks, but that's not the point.
Scenario 3-
You've just got owned by a lerk in a one-on-one battle with him in a hallway because you couldn't shoot him. Do you:
A) Try again, and probably have the same result, because your skill didn't increase
B) Practice hard. Grab a friend of yours into a LAN game, force him to drop movement chambers all over a room, then turn to a Fade and Blink nonstop while you practice by trying to kill it in twenty seconds (about twice the amount of time that you have to kill the lerk before you die)
C) Stay away from the hallway. The lerk will kill your buddies, or get bored and go harass and outpost.
Again, there shouldn't be an alien that leaves you with only bad choices. Now let's compare this to a Skulk.
Scenario 4-
You are defending base. Suddenly, three skulks rush in, and you have no turret support. Do you:
A) Shoot the skulks and possibly kill one or two.
B) Dodge like mad, using your structures as obstacles for the skulks, and wait for backup.
C) Run. Don't look back. Die.
In this case, you see the skulk right there. You can shoot it. Or dodge it. Unfortunately, the lerk is only visible for as long as he needs to be to use spore. After that he's back around the corner, regening if you had the reaction to empty a few lmg bullets into him. I wouldn't think it possible to dodge lerk spores either if the spores were spammed.
Now, there's the case of switching hive abilities umbra and spore so that spore is second hive ability. This isn't so bad. Here's a scenario pretending spore is second hive:
Fantasy Scenario-
Kharaa have spent 5 minutes to complete hive two; they spent the first two minutes fighting over a double resource room, which they lost, and the third and a half minute the hive was going up. You lerk and have fun with spore for about 2 minutes. Suddenly, HA start appearing, just about midway between you getting your second hive and third hive, considering it wasn't locked down.
Here are the good points:
A) With HA going up a few minutes after the second hive, the marines have at least 1/4th of their team rendered immune to spores. Now you at least have a counter for hits. And spore isn't totally useless.
B) If you have HA, you have hmgs and nades. Nades are great for one-hit kos on lerks that are careless.
C) You have a better resource flow, so turrets are actually useable in numbers bigger than three. And they can't be spored.
Bad points:
A) Umbra might make skulks a little too strong against the undefended resource outpost early game. EDIT: This is an outpost with 3 turrets to guard a tf and a res node. Undefended meant there were no marines nearby.
B) Lerks have to rely on spikes now, turning them into a class that requires much skill.
Any other ideas?
Assault Rifle... or Support Rifle?!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Muwahahahaha...
This would change the aspect of lerks a lot, They wouldnt be able to spore rines at outposts as easily
Also, a lot of arguments for the lerk has been that he is sitting there not helping his team, I know you guys arent stupid, but come on, he is sitting, racking up kills, and what do people get when they kill things, RES. What can you get with res, Fades and Onos. Simple.
I do, however, think people are looking at these swpas the wrong way.
Currently people are saying...well spores work against 100% of people at the first hive, 80% at second hive at least, and 0-100% at hive three.
The way I look at it is...right you have two hives up, you have Spores and Umbra. Now the marine as you say has a lot of res, and before the third hive is up, he's got HA teams on the march, half the team. As a good lerk you're there protecting and supporting your team...but it's no use. Your first hive is lamed up, but this one isn't, and your seoncd hive goes down as the third starts building.
****...now you're back down to first hive abilities...the game is 16 minutes through and you only have spore again...and the marines you need to be worrying about are HA. What can you do as a lerk? The answer is nothing. A couple of HA guys start building an outpost outside your first hive...what can you do? the answer is nothing. You've only got spores.
NOW, if umbra was first hive ability, you could give that area a nive lovely smattering of yellow gas, and your skulks could have a bit more of a chance to take out those HA's. That onos that just lost stomp ability on the way to the second hive can have a bit of cover to counter the HA properly even though you only have one hive.
Great eh? Assuming Umbra is balanced you have done it, you've stopped one surge!
So your third hive goes up now (meaning you have two hives)..great back to Sporing and Umbraing, and you're 20 minutes into the game.
But your spores still do **** at this point, they do nothing because the marines ae getting back in their HA...they have the res.
Your team has cleared out the second hive, and it's rebuilding...the marines are taking their time (yes yes, this is hypothetical, but bare with me)...and the third hive goes up! Yay! primal scream!
we're a good 26 minutes into the game now, and it's been going on a bit, slowly but steadily....marines are now ALL kitted out, spore is 100% USELESS. They start building an outpost, you try to support, but man there are 6 marines out there, they're not taking any ****, they're welding each other too. They siege your first hive. They make short work of it too.
Now, your ability to help take out outposts has gone with that third hive! you're left with umbra (against a **** load of HA's, it's useful but I'll be damned if its saving you) and spore that does nothing.
If at this stage you were left with umbra to help save your alien friends, and primal scream...an alien team THAT WORKED AS A TEAM could really really have a counter to HA trains, primal scream to mangle those HA's, and umbra to keep them alive longer.
But no, they just have spore, and as good as umbra is, it's doing nothing with the meds being put down...sorry...end of that hive.
The marines get kitted out...32 minutes gone, and they're moving on the third hive now. Right...now they're building an outpost. Again, if you had primal scream and umbra, you might be able to counter them with a bit of luck and extreme team work...with spore and umbra you can't.
---
So there you have it...with PROPER BALANCING, a lerk change as I've detailed will actually give aliens a counter to HA trains, the only thing in the game that currently doesn't have an effective counter if the aliens are on the back foot on res.
I'm not looking at it as "oh the aliens dominate, in the 13th minute get their third hive and now have spores", I'm looking at it as though the games gone on 20 minutes, and the lerk is restricted to spores despite not having any use for it at all. it's not like skulk bite which on its own is inneffectual to HA but does a little bit at least...no matter how much or how many spore...it still does ZERO damage to the marines in HA...and at this point it'll be all of them.
And don't bother replying if you're just going to say "omg but Umbra at hive one and Primal scream at hive two would be so unballanced...this this and this would happen!" because a) you simply don't know that it would happen, and b) any changes like this would need to be balanced, and it's not my job, but the dev's and PT's to do such a thing should the idea be taken on board.
-Lee
i think the best way to 'fix' the lerk is to make the spore and umbra attacks switch spots. early lerks can be very irritating early-game because you cant go down a corridor without being gassed to near death then spiked till you die. I believe lerks should be more o a support class and be given the spore as the second hive ability.
having umbra replace spore would make it great for supporting skulks in a quick rush or to protect itself when it spikes up some marines. Spore at 2nd hive woulddnt be that bad either. usually when the second hive goes up marines have another area secured so they wont be traped in a room being gassed to death by a lerk that ducks in and out of a hallway. marines probably woulddnt have HA yet anyways, so spore would still be useful until the heavies start stomping towards it.
About the gas mask and special anti-gas structure issue...
Well, the gas mask would help marines against the Spores at outposts... but what would prevent them to keep their gas masks outside their outpost, at the hives, in the corridors? Well, nothing. So the Spore ability would be rendered useless whatever the situation.
A structure that would be availible only near CC wouldn't help much either: isn't that obvious that you can drop a CC at an outpost, thus enabling the outpost to have it's own anti-spore counter-measure? Even, if it was IP-radius building, this wouldn't help resolve the issue: the spore ability would be rendered useless here too.
And even if this modificiation would pass -and I don't think it should- , I would just wonder on the psychological impact of this on marines grunt:
Com: "Stop Humping To This Gaz-Area-Ventilating Structure and Move to your WP!"
Rine: "And say bye-bye to our only way to prevent us from dying from spore-mass-indigestion? Okay, but hand out the HAs then"
....
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This being said, since the debate oriented itself toward the swaping of spore and umbra (thus from 1st hive ability to 2nd and vice-versa), my reaction about that is that I...
wouldn't care.
I'm usually *waiting* for the second ability to show up along with the second hive. And having the benefit of a third hive is even better.
So if Umbra was to be given as the first ability to the Lerk, well, that's ok to me: I won't have to wait anymore before being able to provide a suitable assistance to my fellows.
But wouldn't spore be rendered useless here too?
I don't mean useless as in "no producing any effect at all" but in "would the interest remain?".
Regarding to my gameplay, I don't think that I would bother switching from my 1st hive ability to my second, if Umbra and Spores were inverted.
Lol! I would even say that getting that so long awaited second hive wouldn't matter to me anymore <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> the second hive would just be the necessary step toward the 3rd hive ability, that is Primal Scream.
I know by saying that that I mean that spore isn't of the greatest interest, but that's my personal thought.
I use spores at the beginning because it's the only ability I have along with spikes, and since I'm not completely dumb, I try to use it in the best proper way I can in order to help my teamates.
But once I get Umbra, I pretty say "babye!" to Spores as my "primary" weapon.
Does it mean that it could be totally removed? No, it's still useful, to cover a retreat for exemple -assuming the marines dont have Heavies, and slow down your opponents for example.
Now if primal scream and Umbra were availible by the second hive up, it would be even better, I wouldn't (as a Lerk) care for the third hive to be built since my favorite abilities would already be accessible.
Still, the xample provided by Lee is very interesting, since I've seen a lot of games where, being a Lerk, I saw our 2nd hive rise, then get sieged and lost, a 3rd being put up, then get destroyed, and by the time, the marine team only coming in heavy armors, and seeing myself having as sole possibility to try to spike them, since spores would affect no-one; or evolve into another kind of alien in order to provide a better response than my lerk possibilities would allow.
In this perspective, Umbra as a 1st hive ability would sounds good.
My only question is, as Lee said it, maybe Umbra should be nerfed a little bit because of it's relegation to 1st hive ability, then should Spore be powered up in the same way, since it would become a 2nd (or third) hive ability?
The only way to make sure you are lerk free is to get a SG for ceiling huggers and GLs for those pop-in-and-out-of-the-vent lerks
But it can be a real pain when you're up against a regen lerk who's constantly hugging the ceiling :/
Damn. I have to. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
anyways, i was in this game, and was wa tching this hacker.... we all knew he hacked, and i was recording it =) (o ****, i just remembered i didnt get his wonid.... damn) anyways, he was hacking, but doin a pretty bad job at it.... his aimbot was malfuntional, cuase it was a crappy hack.... anyways, i was watchin him shoot at a lerk with a hmg... i saw the cross hair a bit BEHIND the lerk while it was flying past
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
*,~ ( )
lerk crosshair
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
(ok yes tahts a crap ascii pic)
and he shot iunno, 5-15 hmg bullets there, and killed the lerk.... is it because the actual object and the pictures arent aligned right? lo iunno....
anyways, if u want the demo, aim me at foodforarabbit its 5 megs
edit: if u want to aim me pm me first cause i dont use aol unless someone wants to aim me
*sigh* and learn to read, mythr1l.
-Lee
Still, the xample provided by Lee is very interesting, since I've seen a lot of games where, being a Lerk, I saw our 2nd hive rise, then get sieged and lost, a 3rd being put up, then get destroyed, and by the time, the marine team only coming in heavy armors, and seeing myself having as sole possibility to try to spike them, since spores would affect no-one; or evolve into another kind of alien in order to provide a better response than my lerk possibilities would allow.
In this perspective, Umbra as a 1st hive ability would sounds good.
My only question is, as Lee said it, maybe Umbra should be nerfed a little bit because of it's relegation to 1st hive ability, then should Spore be powered up in the same way, since it would become a 2nd (or third) hive ability? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eyyyyy!
finally someone is actually considering what I'm saying in their own perspective other than "omg ur aim suX0rz!111"
I think the more people try to realise that it's not useless to have spore at third hive if you're winning, but it is pointless to have spore at hive 1 if you're losing (especially in long games), then you'll begin to see one of my beefs with lerks...along side the fact that lerks aren't decent support units at hive one currently.
Infact Jeer, you've just added a bit of weight to my point, because if you play a lerk to be a support unit, and you are mainly waiting/hoping to get your second and third hive abilities...doesn't that show that true lerk players would benefit more, as would the alien team, from a balanced three way ability swap?
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Lee
But it can be a real pain when you're up against a regen lerk who's constantly hugging the ceiling :/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
With an LMG, a pistol and a bit of luck, I usually take lerks down even if they're in the ceiling. If they don't get stuck on ledges and jutts, however, then it's quite random, usually I don't know exactly where I'm aiming so I generalise, which means less bullets hitting the actual target.
But then thats when they're close, and no-one has denied that a lerk within 10 meters, or a lerk simply standing still at 30 meters is a challenge to kill.
-Lee
Lol <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The "omg!..." things start to make me laugh each time I read it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the more people try to realise that it's not useless to have spore at third hive if you're winning, but it is pointless to have spore at hive 1 if you're losing (especially in long games), then you'll begin to see one of my beefs with lerks...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For having experienced it, all I can say is that's so true...
I think we both agree on that. Now I wonder on how the dev team thought about the whole thing. I'm not saying that they didn't do the job right (I think they did an <b>AWESOME</b> job! I'll never cease to be grateful, ever! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ), but mainly how did they thought a "standard" party should run?
Understanding that may help understand the reason of the actual order of hive abilities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Infact Jeer, you've just added a bit of weight to my point, because if you play a lerk to be a support unit, and you are mainly waiting/hoping to get your second and third hive abilities...doesn't that show that true lerk players would benefit more, as would the alien team, from a balanced three way ability swap?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, to tell you the way I'm thinking:
I picked up the Lerk on my first plays as an alien because it could fly and was very fast, what was alot of fun to me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Then, after better examination, it appeared that it was the only alien having to it's disposal an "arsenal" of support abilities (mainly Umbra and Primal Scream). Since I like the idea of supportive classes and the fact that I play NS mainly because of it's cooperative dispositions, the Lerk became my favourite alien class.
Now,there is the spore ability. It gives the Lerk a little bit more of versatility: in the official manual itself, the Lerk is said to be both a "supportive" and a "guerilla unit" or something like that, specialist of harrassment that is.
So we can mainly encounter two/three categories of players playing Lerks:
-the guys/girls playing mostly for the support aspect
-the ones playing mostly for the guerilla aspect
-the ones playing both of the previously named aspects in an hybrid way (depending on circonstancies etc)
So I think we could say that there are three kinds of "true lerk players" if the definition of the lerk trully is "supportive" and a "guerilla unit" .
Plus! We have to count another category: The ones who dedicate themselves at overusing the guerilla aspect -i.e. over-sporing.
If the dev team thought about the Lerk in the above terms, then the fact that this fourth category of players exists can't be helped. There'll always be this kind of players.
Now what's amazing is the number of those said players...
As I tend to fit in the 3rd category because of the fact that Spore is a 1st hive ability, now if we put it as a 2nd or 3rd hive ability, what will happen?
Well people like me will certainly be ok with that, since we could then dedicate ourselves to provide support to our teamates.
The guerilla aspect won't probably matter anymore by the way (in the case of spores being 3rd hive ability).
And the ones overusing spores... well they'll probably quit chosing Lerk or either change their mind and try to be more supportive if they are real Lerk fanboys...
Hmmm....
Finally this would be great then... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still had more to add, but as I have to go shortly, I shall leave this post like that for now.
And yeah, it'd be cool to get a devs word on it as you say, how they were thinking and such.
-Lee
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Right, after the rubbish at the start of this post, lets get to the meat."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I'm so cut. Any other pointless flaming you want to try? I note you've AGAIN chopped out half of the topic, because it would be hard to counter if, gasp, you read all of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"I never said you said anything but IF"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets reread it shall we?
Me - "If lerks had ZERO offensive abilities"
You - "The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities"
Did you answer the if? Nope, sidestepped it and created your own, convenient argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"so I can only assume you thought that removing spores from hive 1 is a removal of ALL (hence the ZERO) offensive capabilities for a lerk."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, feel free to totally sidestep my point. Lets look back on it in context - you complain that the lerk is not a support creature. I point out that no one kharaa is restricted to its "role". I say that IF the lerk had NO weapons, it'd be boring.
True, or false? If the gorge could not build OCs, nor acid spit, bile, or web, would people want to use it? I've spent games as gorge and thats pretty much what I've been doing because of a selfish team, and IMHO thats NOT fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Maybe you just <snip> aliens on the attack.)"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reiterates what I said in my post. No one kharaa is stuck (if you will) with one role. However I disagree with your concept of gorge. A gorge is quite capable of going on the attack, cf the infamous gorge rush.
You may well sputter and say "that doesnt work on smart marine players" but at the same time I think most smart players can cope with lerks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"As I said above, the lerk is the odd one out. Spore doesn't aid to the support of a group alien attack, nor a single alien attack, all it does is annoy marines and up the lerks kill count."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't find that to be true. Its all very much in how the lerk player applies it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"hell of a display of on paper theory, it doesn't work this way in game"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Answer the question please. I don't want to hear how lerks are disadvantaged on certain maps, I asked quite specifically for maps where the marines are disadvantaged. I notice you did not mention bases, but double nodes. IMHO double nodes are deliberately open PRECISELY so that noone can hold them all game without retribution. Otherwise NS would be the RushDoubleRes game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Also you may not consider a door with a corner and a long coridoor behind it..."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets assume Tanith marine spawn. Both doors and corridors and angled in such a way that if you're at the back wall you CANNOT be spored unless a lerk is actually IN THE BASE. If a lerk gets into base and the marines can't stop it, that is not the lerk's fault. Turrets in base can put a halt to this if difficulties arise. Lets not sidetrack on the merits of turrets in base, btw - I'm merely pointing out the counter to a lerk if he's on your doorstep. Additionally, do explain how a lerk gets to the entrance of the marine spawn and can stay there without dying. How do turrets not solve this problem?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"maybe it's another of your on paper theories, but plenty of lerks don't need vents to have an effect, marines ignoring them or not"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a pathetic argument which holds no water. Why your insistence on calling hard fact "on paper theories"? Why have you still not answered any of my questions AS STATED.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"We're talking first hive, this is no niche group, it is everyone."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, spore at first hive is only effective against foolish players who rush lerks with LMGs or comms who build IPs in plain sight of vents and doorways. While that covers a large amount of people on some servers, it is most certainly NOT everyone. Scream, however, works on anyone.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The difference here is that the lerk can't be defended against prior to its attack"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In some maps its called WELDING. On others, its TURRETS. On Hera, it's probably called RELOCATION.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The lerk doesn't utilise comming mistakes, no matter how much you want to live in this flame flame flame blah flame"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compare and contrast -
Lerk vs base with turrets/competent marines pointing at it, with IPs out of sight
Lerk vs base with IPs beside vent and marines humping ammo at an armory also in plain sight beside said IPs
One of those is a comming mistake. The other is not. Rather handily, the comming mistake is the one that gets the most kills. You might blame the ammo humpers - a good comm takes this into account and has the ammo somewhere safe.
Let us consider NS_Caged. Can a lerk in the vent shoot the CC spawn room? Why, no. Is there space in the CC room for two IPs? Yes. In the small corridor before the CC spawn room, can you place an armory thats still out of sight of the vent? Why, yes of course. Tanith - has a clear wall out of sight of the corridors.
These aren't fantasy lands, these are the maps used in the game. And on maps where the base is open (Hera, prime example), you've more to worry about than a lerk. You can win Hera with ONE skulk alone. Again, comming errors are to blame.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"If a gorge wants to spend his res doing that, fair play to him, thats like another 30-50 res on top of the res he should have spent on a Res tower AND evolving...fair play to him.
The lerk on the other hand is just whoring for his own res and whoring for kills...and he's an atacking suport unit? At least the over zealous gorge has done his dumb thing in a defensive support manner!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And gorges can build OC and hug them for kills. And he's a defensive support unit? At least the over zealous lerk has done his dumb thing in a OFFENSIVE (attacking) manner.
Again, the question you missed - how do you counter Gorges who only look out for themselves? Nerf gorges? Force chamber votes? Just because SOME gorge players are a few slices short of a loaf?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can fully expect an alien to stick to its class <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge building DC and MC, healing near enemy base.
Gorge building OC and webbing, healing it's own chambers.
Gorge bilebombing an enemy base before webbing the marines on their own IP and spitting them.
Three different roles, one alien. One of which doesnt even involve building. Lerks, skulks, fades, onos, all the same. While each has a key role, they certainly dont have to stick with it. You CAN see that, yes?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A gorge in an attack role (the offensive OC's) will not do such a thing and survive at hive one, and those OC's won't stay there long<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I beg to differ from experience. And especially so if they have MCs, with the gorge only needing to build chambers and hide near them to spam heal when the shooting stops. Good, and DEVASTATING against uncoordinated marines. Does that mean the gorge needs nerfed because it takes advantage of marine incompetence?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A gorge unless facing idiots<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remove gorge, insert lerk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your theory of lerks not having the access to spore a marine base against a good commander is put under the assumption that you have to spore a precise spot, and you only get one chance at it before all guns are on you. This isn't the case in game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because I've played lerks, as have many people on the forum, I believe. I know how the cloud works. I know how to aim to get the furthest reach. And I STILL cant hit the CC in Caged without leaving the vent (and thus inviting turrets to kill me) or some miracle occurs and all the marines are mentally deficit. Second, if you want to play with semantics, fine. The question stands, and AGAIN you have not answered - *is it the lerks fault that he can see an IP from a vent/doorway*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The lerk shouldn't be nerfed, why is this being seen as a nerf thread? Lerks should be reattuned into the role they're supposed to do. Idiots that just sit around sporing might cry nerf, but any lerk that truely uses their abilities to help support will if anything find themselves better able to do the job.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving spore is a definite nerf. I find it moderately amusing that anyone who disagrees with you is posting flame, or nonconstructive information, or the implication that anyone who says "nerf" is some sort of spore abusing lerk player...... yet the people who back you up are great, super, wow they're so cool.
Are you here to discuss or toss insults?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sarcasm has got you no-where<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I took the time to read everyone's post, and I wasn't the first to resort to pithy insults about other posters. Take your own medicine, lets cut the guff and get to the hard facts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> dont' know how many times I have to tell you that if a lerk is (as you've said a few times) so far away it's not possible to kill it, you shouldn't be payign attention to it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not reread my posts, with extra attention to the words please. I've said several times now (and you'll note there's no edit text, so they were certainly there first) that if you can't kill it, LEAVE IT. So cut out this one track record and do me the courtesy of answering the questions I raise in my posts. I do the same for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Almost anyone using spore in a group attack at anything other than hive one is not playing lerks properly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone dropping 3 OCs and sitting beside the spamming heal on the chambers and IGNORING other players isnt playing gorge properly either. That doesnt mean I start a topic demanding the gorge building ability be "reattuned". If a lerk doesnt team play, that is the fault of the PLAYER. Marines jumping down holes doesn't mean we should remove all holes from the map - it means we just cope with silly players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And FFS how can you compare the RANGED spore to devour?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if you'd read the part you quoted, BOTH devour and spore rely heavily on marine incompetence to be ridiculously effective. Before you cut and clip and take this out of context, consider that sporing intelligent marines will only give you so many kills. Devouring intelligent marines has the same effect. Sporing foolish marines gets you lots of kills, stomp devouring rambos does the same. Both are considered abusive, beginner strategies and BOTH rely on foolish marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down an onos to get devoured...almost every key area of the map has a spot that a lerk can spore from at least 20 meters away if it tries, and can get away in a matter of seconds. Running into devour and getting punished for it, and simply being in a room of significance and getting spore rained down on you are two very different things and CERTAINLY not worthy of analogising together<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down a lerk to get spored...almost every key area of the map has a spot that an Onos can devour from at least X meters away if it tries, and can get away in a matter of seconds. Running into a spore cloud and getting punished for it, and simply being in a room of significance and getting stomp/devoured are two very different things, and CERTAINLY not worthy of analogising together.
Sound familiar?
A marine in plain sight of a lerk at spawn has either been a victim of diabolical building placement or a diabolical team. If I get spored from a doorway, its because the comm/team aren't covering them. If I get spored from a vent, its because the comm dumped my IP too close to the LOS from a vent.
Do I scream "nerf the lerk! Move the spores to hive 3, so we all have HA and they can't possibly damage my fragile body!". No. I point out to the comm that his IP placement was flawed, and then MOVE ON.
Now I digress, and we're all getting a little heated, but please, in our posts, lets cut out the "Right, after the rubbish at the start of this post, lets get to the meat.", I'll cut out my sarcasm, and we'll get to the crux of the issue. We're both obviously competent players with an interest in game balance.
In polite terms, my argument
Marine bases are lerk havens if badly made.
If Comms are silly enough to build IPs in sight of or in range of lerk vents, then that is the Comms fault.
Lerks will be abused in the same manner that any class can be abused, and nerfing/reattuning any class will have a negative effect on game balance and those who use the class properly.
My solution, is better education of placement, better education of grunts, and a general raising of awareness.
Moving spore to hive 3 makes it unfeasible IMHO, because at three hives you'll be facing HA. Secondly, a one hive lockdown would make the lerk virtually wholly reliant on others - something which at 30 points is an unwise move. A gorge doesn't need to rely on others, and its a fraction of the cost.
Please address my questions, mentioned in my previous post and reiterated in this one.
Heres hoping our next posts will be on more cordial terms <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
i also think spores and umbra should switch, umbra is quite an essential tool for the aliens against shottys and hmgs cos they kill so fast. that and stomp, web as well but thats 3rd hive and that just means end of game really.
I wouldnt mind lerk been total support apart from spikes. maybe have new cloud based weapon and get rid of spores. i just thought up a think like an EMP cloud. could be made 3rd hive cos it be pretty good.
basicly the EMP cloud would stop any buildings from working that is within the cloud. so TF means turrets stop working, army means no ammo from it and no weapon drops at that army, no equip from proto. obs stops, basicly total base shutdown. although the cloud wouldnt last too long. although it would be 3rd hive, lets face it. pretty much all 3rd hive stuff is like stuff to speed up the death of marines. although maybe if its done right like lots of energy usage and the cloud dont stay long it could be 2nd hive.
the problem is i dont think devs waste thier time on the forums <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> , really do wish a dev would read this tho becuase it is a good discussion and has proof that the lerk isnt a support class that it was meant to be <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerks should have Umbra at hive 1, spores are usless at end game when your losing<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that has to be one of the most agreed factor on why the lerk isnt a support class at hive 1, spores are usless against HA's, if the rines are all ha's all your doing is spiking them while skulks are getting torn apart trying to counter it, if you nerf umbra alittle and make it a hive 1 weapon then 2 hive lockdowns can be achieved in success when an onos doesnt have any upgrades, umbra can make or break a situation like that, mabye make it stop 1/2 bullets or 1/3 to make a lerk _ skulks rush on a abse counterable in the early game
and violence, very good idea <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lets reread it shall we?
Me - "If lerks had ZERO offensive abilities"
You - "The lerk doesn't have zero offensive abilities"
Did you answer the if? Nope, sidestepped it and created your own, convenient argument.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"so I can only assume you thought that removing spores from hive 1 is a removal of ALL (hence the ZERO) offensive capabilities for a lerk."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, feel free to totally sidestep my point. Lets look back on it in context - you complain that the lerk is not a support creature. I point out that no one kharaa is restricted to its "role". I say that IF the lerk had NO weapons, it'd be boring.
True, or false? If the gorge could not build OCs, nor acid spit, bile, or web, would people want to use it? I've spent games as gorge and thats pretty much what I've been doing because of a selfish team, and IMHO thats NOT fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't side step anything, you were going on about If's and buts with lerks having zero weaponry with offensive capability, and I was cutting it off at the pass because at no point in any of the posts was such a thing suggested, simple as that. Your points about aliens having no weapons seems...bizarre if I'm to be honest, because at what point are we talking about stripping aliens of their ability to do anything...especially ones that it is intrinsically in the game to do?
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However I disagree with your concept of gorge. A gorge is quite capable of going on the attack, cf the infamous gorge rush.
You may well sputter and say "that doesnt work on smart marine players" but at the same time I think most smart players can cope with lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gorge rush is an anomaly. You can't Fade-Build-Defenses or Onos-Heal-the-hive. the gorge rush is an anomaly that takes up a lot of res for the whole team and requires a really good team to do it. I don't see this as proof that any aliens aren't restricted to one role...it is as I say, an anomaly.
You can of course disagree all you like <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> but at the end of the day a single gorge does nothing except that which is in the interest of supporting the team defensively. The lerk should do the same but offensively.
A fade-3 skulk-one onos and lerk rush is also pretty devestating if conducted by the same level of team work as a gorge rush, however the fact that they are all gorges in a gorge rush is by no means some kind of proof that a gorge is meant for attack as well...it's just a proof that if a good team sticks to a tactic and does it well, as an alien, they can put up a good show of offensive force...whatever the combination of aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Answer the question please. I don't want to hear how lerks are disadvantaged on certain maps, I asked quite specifically for maps where the marines are disadvantaged. I notice you did not mention bases, but double nodes. IMHO double nodes are deliberately open PRECISELY so that noone can hold them all game without retribution. Otherwise NS would be the RushDoubleRes game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maps where the marines can be easily dissadvantaged against a gorge. I'd just like to remind you of course that a lerk spore will kill a basic marine in 10-11 seconds, mostly when the gas has visually dissapated too. Consider this when you take into account the size of bases and the amount of time a marine can take to get out of it towards a lerk, or away from it. I've also tried to put them in some kind of worst to best order.
Bast...nuff said I think, especially if some idiot welds the vent.
Eclipse, too easy by far. The vent in base is childs play for any lerk that knows how to fly, and with it sporing of the entire base is an easy and fairly risk free process (this was the map I managed to get to sporing their base in a minute in, taking out rushers going to maint, then going through the vent opening at horseshoe)
Lost, talk about ease of sporing. By the time any marine gets even close to an "exit point" of the base, he'll be on 50hp, and even then he's not garanteed to see the lerk (re-occuring point here, any average lerk will see a marine coming in such places and run away....you don't need a vent, you just need a good view, even with no upgrades). only counter is to build everything in the space on the rampway, however this doesn't solve the problem of a big area gassed to walk through.
Veil, Hard as hell to spore people as they spawn, but far too easy to lead people through a good 15 meters of spore cloud as soon as they leave the immediate vicinity of their buildings, leaving you with roughly 20-40 hp on the other side.
Caged, from the vent if needed, though actually the worst place to spore from. The best place is from (as you exit the base as a marine) the sewer side (right) of the base. A nice protective corner with the ability to fire spores into the arch way of the CC "tunnel" all the way up to your own position. Again, you can be on 50hp easily before you even get to the lerks position, and by the time you get there, he'll be around another corner.
Hera, their base with two exceptions...one is if everything is built on the cramped walkway, the other is if the marines huddle everything in the corner that in 1.04 used to have the vent and grating. Two very small areas. The best one, however, does take out one of those areas, and it is a lerk that flies straight through the base when it's quiet...out of the "map" to the marine start res, and goes and hides on a ledge outside the glass coridoor to heal or whatever. Apart from the walkway again, it has the whole of the map in its sights, and if it wants to hide, there is going and hiding behind the "glass" which no marine without a jetpack can get to, or on a little patch behind the crates. Nifty really.
Mineshaft, a cramped small space with a myriad of corners. Not so much an issue for a smart team that can set up ambushes, admittedly, but an arse to get out of at the best of times with a lot of cover for lerks.
Origin, This map is generally free of issue, though the door at the far end of the base by the res tower can be very nice to spore from, a single marine on base duty can keep him at bay usually though to keep him at laser drilling or further back.
Nothing, This is very much like Tanith, with a little more ease thanks to a single vent, but not really an issue.
Tanith, This map is admittedly free of issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets assume Tanith marine spawn. Additionally, do explain how a lerk gets to the entrance of the marine spawn and can stay there without dying. How do turrets not solve this problem?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, you certainly have me on tanith, I've not claimed at any point that all enemy start bases in NS are prone to attack, just enough of them. 6 out of 10 as it turns out with thought. Turrets don't solve the problem in the early game as most commanders I know trade off base defenses with turrets for expansion and teching anyway...BUT the main thing is a lerk doesn't have to be infront of a couple of turrets for more than a fraction of a second. Even without regeneration, that can be a lot of dinks in and out of sight of an enemy base to spore before it needs healing. Turrets do not at all phase a lerk in these circumstances. Not in my experiance anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's a pathetic argument which holds no water. Why your insistence on calling hard fact "on paper theories"? Why have you still not answered any of my questions AS STATED.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats because your questions are loaded to provide an answer that benefits your argument. Not all maps, infact a minority of them, have vents at marine spawn that lerks can sue to spore with impunity from...however your question isn't a valid one because, as I stated, a good lerk doesn't need a vent, they just need enough space and a bit of cover (a turning corner). Taking that into account, you add another 3 or 4 maps that have lerk issues to the list.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, spore at first hive is only effective against foolish players who rush lerks with LMGs or comms who build IPs in plain sight of vents and doorways. While that covers a large amount of people on some servers, it is most certainly NOT everyone. Scream, however, works on anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is absolute bollocks, sorry. A marine is killed in 11 seconds max, I've found, with spore. 11 seconds. That is the length of a decent sized coridoor...it's the length generally from the archway in caged to going around the corner towards sewer. At hive one...it does affect everyone, on pretty much any map (taking into account the fact that in such a debate on "which is more effective" that sporing places of building is also counted) You know you can't technically build outside feedwater for example to set up a siege point thanks to spore? You get a TF set down, that takes...I can't remember, but it's probably just enough time to get killed if you're building it on your own by a couple of spore clouds. Then take into account the PG? The three turrets minimum? just the one siege because we're strapped for cash? That is in my books at least two deaths worth of marine, if there's three marines building...six deaths.
Damn...I mean, tbh any marine team facing that without med spam (which is an awful lot of constant res, a lot wasted too since spore is so gradual) will die before the Turrets are built. Sooooo, which is more effective, the spore cloud that effectively stops the mini-base being built, or the primal scream which enables it to be taken down faster, with possible minor alien losses.
Now of course, if the base is already built, spore becomes a little less useful compared to primal scream. That I can conceed. Does this make primal scream more effective. In my opinion it does not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In some maps its called WELDING. On others, its TURRETS. On Hera, it's probably called RELOCATION.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me go back to my original point, lerks can be in your base before you put down the non-effectual turrets, before you weld the one vent in all ten maps that will give you little aid against lerks. And if you relocate it is usually to a double res point or a hive...as you've said yourself, the double res points have to be open for obvious reasons...and the hives are also no different to that rule.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Compare and contrast -
Lerk vs base with turrets/competent marines pointing at it, with IPs out of sight<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I've said above, this is only 5 out of the 10 maps at most, and this is only if the base is at marine spawn and not at popular relocate points in those maps...The other 5 maps, or Hera if not built on the walkway this doesn't apply to, because it doesn't matter where you build in those cases...you are in decent range and scope to be spored with little ability to kill the thing doing it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerk vs base with IPs beside vent and marines humping ammo at an armory also in plain sight beside said IPs
One of those is a comming mistake. The other is not. Rather handily, the comming mistake is the one that gets the most kills. You might blame the ammo humpers - a good comm takes this into account and has the ammo somewhere safe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think that all I'm talking about is the lerk sporing directly over IP's? What about the sporing of generally all around the base and around...so that you have to walk through spores to get out. Prime example of this is caged, see below.
You also over estimate the ability of turrets against lerks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let us consider NS_Caged. Can a lerk in the vent shoot the CC spawn room? Why, no. Is there space in the CC room for two IPs? Yes. In the small corridor before the CC spawn room, can you place an armory thats still out of sight of the vent? Why, yes of course. Tanith - has a clear wall out of sight of the corridors.
These aren't fantasy lands, these are the maps used in the game. And on maps where the base is open (Hera, prime example), you've more to worry about than a lerk. You can win Hera with ONE skulk alone. Again, comming errors are to blame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may have more to worry about than a lerk, but when you couple that worry WITH the lerk, it's a very bad headache indeed. As for Caged, no lerk in his right mind would spore from the vent, he would spore from either of the "coridoors" that are some way out of the base. The smart commander has built his IP's as you've said, but any lerk will still be able to spore from the very entrance to that room all the way aroud the main stay of the base area, and even up the coridoor it is for quite away should someone try to chase it down.
It's a lot of area, and while they may not be spawning in it, they certainly have to walk through it, and in caged's case, it's a lot to walk through for a weapon that will have you killed in 10-11 seconds. It's not so simple as you're making it out to be...as I said, on paper hiding the IP's might sound like the perfect plan, in game all it usually does is mean you're further from an exit and thus have more cloud to walk through.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And gorges can build OC and hug them for kills. And he's a defensive support unit? At least the over zealous lerk has done his dumb thing in a OFFENSIVE (attacking) manner.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gorge that builds OCs at any point is denying the marines area...if they're built in stupid area's, however, they'll just be taken down. Yes a gorge can hug an OC for kills, but then thats generally what they're there for, the OC's...they're placed to help keep things alive, and stop things being destroyed, after all. However how has the lerk supported any of his team mates by sporing? He hasn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Again, the question you missed - how do you counter Gorges who only look out for themselves? Nerf gorges? Force chamber votes? Just because SOME gorge players are a few slices short of a loaf?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges can't look out for themselves without doing a modicum of help for the alien side at the same time...not realisitically. Can a gorge bilebomb a marine building for himself without it benefiting the team? Can a gorge build any building without it having the possiblity of supporting the team in some way. What you're saying is absurd, and the comparison to lerks is non-existant. The main difference being, of course, that idiot gorges that don't play for the team usually get themselves killed and as such pay for their mistakes, lerks that aren't playing for the team get spore kills and spike kills in abundance.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gorge building DC and MC, healing near enemy base.
Gorge building OC and webbing, healing it's own chambers.
Gorge bilebombing an enemy base before webbing the marines on their own IP and spitting them.
Three different roles, one alien. One of which doesnt even involve building. Lerks, skulks, fades, onos, all the same. While each has a key role, they certainly dont have to stick with it. You CAN see that, yes?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is getting boring, I've already stated that the third hive game (in which the last scenario happens) is a completely different game, as every alien is geared towards te destruction of a marine team...thats the whole purpose, so the game ends quickly. The odd one out is the lerk that has his specifically skewed offensive ability for quick dispatch of losing marines as a first hive ability.
Secondly the gorge bilebombing things (and that alone) is a support for its team...and is something that takes time and needs team support for him also (usually).
I can see that yes, at hive three, all the aliens become base wrecking marine munchers, but I can also see that before that...and most CERTAINLY at hive one, they have very specific tasks to be doing, except the lerk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I beg to differ from experience. And especially so if they have MCs, with the gorge only needing to build chambers and hide near them to spam heal when the shooting stops. Good, and DEVASTATING against uncoordinated marines. Does that mean the gorge needs nerfed because it takes advantage of marine incompetence?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not an issue, because lerk sporing can be a hastle wether the marines are incompetant or not, a point you seem to not want to grasp old of and accept. Also you seem to be slipping into the old "you can't nerf spores because they hurt marines" thing again, which I will say again <b>I am not saying, I am saying MOVE spores and rearrange lerk abilities to reattune them to the role it should be doing</b>. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, because I've played lerks, as have many people on the forum, I believe. I know how the cloud works. I know how to aim to get the furthest reach. And I STILL cant hit the CC in Caged without leaving the vent <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Second, if you want to play with semantics, fine. The question stands, and AGAIN you have not answered - *is it the lerks fault that he can see an IP from a vent/doorway*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On 5 maps out of ten, he has almost no choice but to be able to. on Hera he also has little choice to be able to unless the commander is happy with cramping his marines on a walkway (which some are, much to my annoyance and dispair of my jump button...damn hopping over turrets and ****... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
On the other 4 maps, you're correct, but then read above anyway, because as I've said in the last two posts, you don't have to see the IP's to have the same effect.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Moving spore is a definite nerf. I find it moderately amusing that anyone who disagrees with you is posting flame, or nonconstructive information, or the implication that anyone who says "nerf" is some sort of spore abusing lerk player...... yet the people who back you up are great, super, wow they're so cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I simply don't really like discussing with people that are more free to hand out sarcasm and subtle insults themselves, hence us getting off on the wrong foot obviously. Other people that cried nerf did so in a condescending learn to aim manner, not one person that has agreed with me has, however, flamed or been condescending/sarcastic in the same manner that you and other people that are against these ideas have been.
I'm very much a do unto others kind of person mate, so as long as you show a bit of respect, then I can discuss anything with you, eevn if come the end we are both at opposite ends of the spectrum in our opinion. Just lay off the sarcasm and such (as you have been) and I'll be laying off the flame (as I hope I have been). Back to the post now? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Would you like to explain how moving the spore ability is a nerf? Before you do however, make sure you've read my detailed run down as to scenario's where marines come back after three hives thanks to tech, at which point spore can become your only weapon as a hive 1 weapon, and useless to battle those attacking you. If anything the change would boost the lerk, and so would need adequette ability balancing to make sure things were all cool.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why not reread my posts, with extra attention to the words please. I've said several times now (and you'll note there's no edit text, so they were certainly there first) that if you can't kill it, LEAVE IT. So cut out this one track record and do me the courtesy of answering the questions I raise in my posts. I do the same for you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm answering them, the answers don't seem to please or satiate you though. I do believe that when I said "that if a lerk is (as you've said a few times) so far away it's not possible to kill it, you shouldn't be paying attention to it" I was reitterating your ponit of "if you can't kill it, LEAVE IT" to answer your own question.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyone dropping 3 OCs and sitting beside the spamming heal on the chambers and IGNORING other players isnt playing gorge properly either. That doesnt mean I start a topic demanding the gorge building ability be "reattuned".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a gorge puts down 3 OC's anywhere then it is inadvertantly good for the team anyway, as it is no doubt denying the marines some area.
If it's too close to the marine spawn, they'll be dealt with very promptly. So yet again I'm wondering where this comparison to lerks is coming from?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because if you'd read the part you quoted, BOTH devour and spore rely heavily on marine incompetence to be ridiculously effective. Before you cut and clip and take this out of context, consider that sporing intelligent marines will only give you so many kills. Devouring intelligent marines has the same effect. Sporing foolish marines gets you lots of kills, stomp devouring rambos does the same. Both are considered abusive, beginner strategies and BOTH rely on foolish marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An onos that runs into a base can devour any marine that it likes, intelligent or not, and then gore the rest and run away. However to reitterate my point I was making...if the onos is just sitting there then you're quite right, only supid marines get devoured. However, with spores, you don't have to be as stupid marine to be affected, possibly greatly (even if it's not in health impact, but the inability to move from where you are to do yuor task that is essential, perhaps?), by spores.
This is why I couldn't understand your comparison to Devour, and like everything else you claim I've taken out of context, I assure you it wasn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It takes a dumb marine or a marine with a need to take down a lerk to get spored<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really doesn't, I don't know how much I have to stress this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do I scream "nerf the lerk! Move the spores to hive 3, so we all have HA and they can't possibly damage my fragile body!". No. I point out to the comm that his IP placement was flawed, and then MOVE ON.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I say that on half the maps in ns, how good your comm is at placing buildings, you'll get spored regardless of skill level.
Secondly, moving spore isn't a nerf, it's just a gameplay change...you obviously see it as a nerf, and I don't think I can argue with that, but unfortunately (and no offence here) you have no authority to make that claim, as you don't know how the lerk would work with the new (and tbh, radically changed) makeup of lerk abilities.
Third, just so you've got it, <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->, I don't want these changes through any specific marine based feelings, though they help me like the idea...it's very much an alien based feeling thing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My solution, is better education of placement, better education of grunts, and a general raising of awareness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This however doesn't solve the issues for the alien side...not completely.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Moving spore to hive 3 makes it unfeasible IMHO, because at three hives you'll be facing HA. Secondly, a one hive lockdown would make the lerk virtually wholly reliant on others - something which at 30 points is an unwise move. A gorge doesn't need to rely on others, and its a fraction of the cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm, I don't agree at any point here.
I'm going to re-cover some tracks here...
<b>Scenario 1. Aliens are winning easily.</b>
At first hive, the lerk helps his team with spore, at second hive a load of marine res and a mini-base is taken out with primal scream. The marines have no res, and so are just turret farming. The lerk at hive three then has spores to fire at marines to weaken them and end the game quicker, also has the other abilities.
<u>how is this different from 2.0?</u>
Essentially, come the end game, looking over all...it changed nothing, except it made the lerk go about his first hive and half of his second hive game differently. The lerk hasn't been dissadvantaged by the change at all, and the team have gained from it.
<b>Scenario 2. Aliens are losing</b>
The aliens get two hives up, they're just getting the third hive up, but marines completely control res on the map, they're raking it in. They've spent a lot of time defending the res and teching up.
Now...as the third hive goes up, a few HA marines come by your second hive and start building a siege outpost. You're in the same situation as 2.0 here. Now the marines have comm backup, and they've got this base up quick...boom after a bit the hive has gone.
****...yuo've lost spores...oh well, they're all in HA anyway, and right now I've got umbra and primal scream...
The Ha's are on the move...so I go with a bunch of skulks and a fade to take out those HA's. Now in 2.0 I'd have spore and umbra now, however as it is I now have umbra and primal scream...so what I do is I umbra up a coridoor the rines are walking down, and primal scream the skulks and fades. The four HA's get absolutely decimated in the chaos of fast action alien fury.
Trouble is that in this time 3 other HA's were setting up a sneaky little base to siege our third hive! Shite, and it's gone before we can do anything...bugger. We might have taken down a few of their res and put up our own, but we've got only one hive.
We're down to one hive...aliens are gathering their res for onos or fade if they're not fade or onos already...but we're on one hive against a res powerful HA marine team. In 2.0 as a lerk I might as well just not bother because right now all I've got is spore...but in this update, voila, umbra!
If we really pull together, coupled with the fact we took some res power from the marines, get an onos and a couple of fades...with umbra's help we might just be able to pick that HA train apart and take this game back from the brink of loss to return it to the victory that was so close at three hives!
Of course it would be very unlikely, but it would certainly help contribute to the very slim counters we currently have for HA trains.
--
Can you see where I'm coming from here? That by moving spores to third hive we make sure the lerk has to help the team, but his spores will (bar the early game) effect no more or no less marines come the third hive than it does in 2.0 anyway?
By the way, a gorge does need protecting, very much so, for it's 10 res. It's not until it spends an extra 20 res for OC's and perhaps 10 on a chamber that a gorge can become at least slightly near to being able to protect itself. Besides, a lerk is fast, it can protect itself the way any unit of its type should, by running away, not by being a bigger offensive threat than the thing it faces.
-Lee
the problem is i dont think devs waste thier time on the forums <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, dev's, or people that get ideas or feedback to devs, must read the forums, plenty of things have been implimented into the game from the suggestion and ideas forum to show this...I just don't think that they a) show that they have an interest unless it's ground breaking idea or b) care much for what they read <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Again, I'm glad a couple of people (in the time it took me to write that damn long reply, damn you necrosis! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) also see the view I'm taking with regard to end games and HA issues, along side the lerk not being very "support class" and thus annoyingly useless to aliens needing help in the first hive game.
-Lee
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agreed
The first few debates in this thread are over the classing of Lerks as 'support' classes. This name is given to encourage their use as support classes. If they were ever geared (touch wood,) as solely support units, (ie, remove damage from umbra and replace spores with summat,) then no-one would play with them.
Precious few people play as a team, so that would be a waste of a class.
Lerk is hardly used anyway, so if the xperts can use it like it is currently being used (and get complaints like these,) then so be it.