<!--QuoteBegin--joev+Sep 5 2003, 02:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (joev @ Sep 5 2003, 02:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Sep 5 2003, 01:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Sep 5 2003, 01:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Thursday-+Sep 4 2003, 12:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thursday- @ Sep 4 2003, 12:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys don't get upset, I'm merely putting across my point of view which is what the point of forums is. If your not happy ingore the comments. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is, your 'point of view' is dead wrong. Your stated belief, that the author of nancy doesn't want to update it because they're happy with the 1.x version, is incorrect. DevilDog lost the original .RMF and .MAP files in a hard-drive crash, <b><i><span style='color:white'>and he is being fully supportive of our efforts to rebuild Nancy again, having assigned primary control of this project to Lazer.</span></i></b>
So kindly stop pushing your unwanted, unwarrented, unappealing, and uninformed opinions down our collective throats. Nancy is being rebuilt with the author's permission, thanks, cooporation, and enjoyment, hon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As coil already said.
DROP IT.
The arguement is over.
Keep to the *TOPIC* or we *will* lock this thread.
joev. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is locking a topic the admin solution to everything? The fact that you said that leaves me utterly dismayed ; more so than thursdays posts. Stop the offender, but why punish everyone else who put alot of time and effort into this project?
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Sep 5 2003, 03:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Sep 5 2003, 03:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just a tip for port...
Make sure you incorporate some kind of nobuild behind the smashed in door.
Marines have been known to exploit that by building a phase gate and sieging port from there, but if it's been fixed before I opened my big mouth then thats alright then <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Instead of making a 'func_wall' to clip the 'busted in door' on port, actually, I made a full-depth func_nobuild instead.
Okay, my entity usage is pretty much optimized now. Clipping brushes are done, hint brushwork is in place for Port Engine Hive (which DRASTICALLY helps r_speeds in the hallway just outside) and the entities all have origin brushes so they van be removed by the 'vis' routines easilly. Opaque entities are just that, though usually those are also illusionary, resulting in LARGE quantities of 'SDF::4' spam still until the next version of XP-Cagey's toolset is released.
On another note, skulks can maneuver around 'my' map segments quite readilly, texturing looks pretty damn sweet aside from a few mis-aligns I need to go through, calculate scaling factors for, and wrap around odd-shaped geometry manually in Port Engine hive with the infestation, and lighting needs to get the magic touch from DarkATi to make sure nothing got broken, but it looks quite good right now.
So, we're looking good to stay well under the 400-entity limit, and even the hives aren't hitting the 'peak limit' for 'Marine' r_speeds of 700 yet, though they're all a little above the 400-ish 'average' wanted, more like an average of 500 in the two hives I've worked on.
Hell, we'll even get to keep all ours doors, and maybe go back and add some particle effects in a couple places, the rate things are going. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--Edgecrusher+Sep 5 2003, 07:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ Sep 5 2003, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ummm any idea about a release date? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When it's done. :-) We'd like to finish up ASAP, even in time for submission for considering for 2.1, but I get the distinct feeling we're going to do this right, instead of meeting any deadline what-so-ever.
Woohoo I can't wait. I hope it makes 2.1, but if it doesn't then it doesn't matter. I'd prefer a fully polished map later than a map with issues sooner.
Good job guys! Keep it up I wub you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--WolfWings+Sep 5 2003, 10:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WolfWings @ Sep 5 2003, 10:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Edgecrusher+Sep 5 2003, 07:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ Sep 5 2003, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ummm any idea about a release date? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> When it's done. :-) We'd like to finish up ASAP, even in time for submission for considering for 2.1, but I get the distinct feeling we're going to do this right, instead of meeting any deadline what-so-ever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah don't rush to meet the submition date <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
WolfWings, since you seem to know about hint brushes as well as all that other stuff, I'm gonna have yoy look back through the source when it's done to add hint brushes. I've tried to do a lot to reduce r_speeds but I don't know about hint brushes (I've raised the tables in messhall 1 unit off the ground which is unnoticible but has a noticible effect)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WolfWings, since you seem to know about hint brushes as well as all that other stuff, I'm gonna have you look back through the source when it's done to add hint brushes. I've tried to do a lot to reduce r_speeds but I don't know about hint brushes (I've raised the tables in messhall 1 unit off the ground which is unnoticible but has a noticible effect) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *nods* I figured I'd be doing that before doing the final compile. I'll be sending you the final revision of both hives and attached areas later this afternoon, with final clipping installed and full compatibility with Commander Mode implemented. I've spent most of today making sure there's nowhere a Commander can click and go "Why the hell can't I drop the Armory there?!?" just like Skulks won't be able to go 'Why the hell can't I climb up to there?!?" either. :-)
Also, an alternative to the 'raise off the ground 1 unit' trick, is to make them a func_wall of course, since the newer tools support entity shadows, so it doesn't suddenly make things lit up wrong. Also, the '1 unit' trick can raise the clipnodes and plane count, but converting things into a func_wall can raise the entity count, so it's a trade-off either way.
Ah yes, but I made sure I nulled all the bottoms of the brushes. Anyway, I'll be waiting for the final revisions tonight, unless I'm out somewhere. (friday night woo!)
<!--QuoteBegin--Edgecrusher+Sep 5 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ Sep 5 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lets hope it compiles without problems <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It will when I'm done, believe me. =^.^=
Now I just want to build a full map from scratch... I'm having to resist the urge to keep building more and more of Nancy, it's like a drug and I'm hooked. =^.6=
Now I just want to build a full map from scratch... I'm having to resist the urge to keep building more and more of Nancy, it's like a drug and I'm hooked. =^.6= <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha I agree its a fun theme huh? Anyway, I'm going out tonight so I won't be working on it tonight, but all of tomorrow will most likely be devoted to finishing marine start and pulling everything together. (hallways are easy to copy and paste) I remember you said you wanted to do the vent system? You can if you want, just remember a few things:
Keep the texture Keep the lighting style (including those small func_illusionaries, they just look nice) Try and keep a similar structure (same routes, but the twists and turns can be a little different since the vents CAN be a rush job and still come out fine)
Just keep those in mind for when I send back over the "whole" source. When you get that done, do a compile and send me back over the rmf file and the bsp file. I'll get people together and we can beta it a little and hopefully it will be ready for release next week.
Things that will need extra attention and probably a few compiles to get right: -Radiosity settings (both the command line and lights.rad file) -Possible textrue alignment errors -Particle system tweaks where needed -Slight structural changes in areas that could possibly get things stuck -Other slight tweaks
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember you said you wanted to do the vent system? You can if you want, just remember a few things:<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep the texture Keep the lighting style (including those small func_illusionaries, they just look nice)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See attachment. Vents are already finished, I'm adjusting them now to add a 'passing area' to all straightaways instead of only a few in the original, so I'll be able to 'merge' them into the map you send over quite quickly with a simple 'carve' for the openings with one 'prefab' and the actual vents themselves as another. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try and keep a similar structure (same routes, but the twists and turns can be a little different since the vents CAN be a rush job and still come out fine)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, why rush when I have plenty of time to get it right ahead of time? =^.^=
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just keep those in mind for when I send back over the "whole" source. When you get that done, do a compile and send me back over the rmf file and the bsp file. I'll get people together and we can beta it a little and hopefully it will be ready for release next week.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, hon, all you're getting is a .MAP file, and that all I need/want/use, is the .MAP file. Radiant doesn't use any kind of 'internal' format, it uses the same file-format the compile tools use. So just pitch an exported .MAP file my way? :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Things that will need extra attention and probably a few compiles to get right:<ul> <li>Radiosity settings (both the command line and lights.rad file) <li>Possible textrue alignment errors <li>Particle system tweaks where needed <li>Slight structural changes in areas that could possibly get things stuck <li>Other slight tweaks</ul><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Radiosity settings will be adjusted a little. I'll send back multiple versions of the .BSP file with full-quality lighting with various settings of -dscale and -scale so we can pick how 'harsh' we want the lighting to be, before we adjust it to properly 'fill out' areas.
As for texture alignment errors... *chuckles* I'll kill those, believe me. The 'red hallway' by Port Engine was the only area I went over with the proverbial fine-toothed comb, unfortunately. Wanted to get the brushwork back to you sooner rather than latter.
As for particle systems... actually, right now I don't know if the map's using any particle systems. =^.6= I'd LOVE to add a few, hissing pipes under the grating-floors, dripping pipes, etc, provided we have the entities to spare. :-)
And structural... *chuckles* I'll avoid going crazy, but I WILL remove 'stuck' points. XP-Cagey's tools by themselves remove a LOT of 'stuck' points, all in fact with the settings I use and proper use of the 'bevel' texture. :-) You'll see. =^.^=
Anyways, back to building and adjust the vents ahead of time...
'Final' vent layout, barring any collissions with world geometry in the final version of the .MAP I get sent by Lazer, which will be adjusted for.
Note, the red areas are 'single wide' areas, exactly 24 units wide/tall/deep/long/etc... The black areas are 'throughfairs' which are double-wide, meaning you can pass if you each hug opposite walls.
All junctions are in corners or on edges. Whenever two 'red vents' would touch for the first time, that is the point they become a 'black vent' with one exception where the two entrances are all of an Onos-width apart in-game, opposite sides of a wall pretty much. There are no 'double tall' vents, or vents that aren't 24 or 48 units in size.
Also, note this screenshot is showing the 'inside world' edges, the actual vents, obviously, are a smidge thicker because of their walls. :-)
And if you overlay the two images, no, they don't quite line up, the zoom factors don't quite match. Also, this layout will look 'simplified' in one area near the upper-middle/right segment, that was done on purpose, and judging from the surrounding world geometry will not cause any problems. In any case, comments anyone? :-)
Also, any preferences for signposting? Or does anyone really care about that? =^.^= And by signposting, lighting ideas, or should I try the 'decal' approach I mentioned previously, or something else entirely? :-)
Would help if I attached the actual image, wouldn't it? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And actually... this brings up a second question... should I attempt to 'link' the vent systems together into one unified system, perhaps? Right now, one vent system has 11 exit points, sprawling across most of the map. The other vent system has 4 exit points and links only one hive to a couple of hallways, and was almost never used because the majority of vents led elsewhere.
Linking the two vents wouldn't be difficult, there's more than enough room around the map, so it's easy to do. I'll try one compile with the vent systems 'unified' when we beta-test the new version. Might be a good concept for adding 'weldable' points to Nancy, also. Make them only allow closing 'seals' inside the vents, so you don't actually close off the vents, only break them into sections.
I'd love to playtest this thing <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
From Messhall to Mother and Messhall to PER it was a double wide vent til you got to the opening.
Remember, the smaller vent system linked PER with messhall and Mother Hive.
I'll bounce around in-game later to doublecheck <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Lightning Blue+Sep 6 2003, 05:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lightning Blue @ Sep 6 2003, 05:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The vent system doesn't quite look right.
From Messhall to Mother and Messhall to PER it was a double wide vent til you got to the opening.
Remember, the smaller vent system linked PER with messhall and Mother Hive.
I'll bounce around in-game later to doublecheck <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The 'original' vent system was double-wide and single-wide in odd places, with odd configurations. The 'original' vent system I posted above was built by taking the map decompile, loading that into GtkRadiant, then flying through it, 'flood filling' the vents with brushwork as I went. Then a manual fly-through to verify that all vent openings had been hit with the flood-fill, and all other brushwork was deleted, leaving only the floodfilled vents.
Saving these as a prefab, I re-loaded the Nancy map again, then loaded the pre-fab as an entity so I could toggle it on and off. Doing so, I re-visited the entire vent system, looking for breaks or gaps in the vents. I didn't find any.
If I missed something, it's likely due to the decompile messing up brushwork somewhere, it DOES happen. :-) But if one vent was single or double wide is a relative moot point, as I re-sized all the vents now, so they're always double-wide as far as possible, until you run out of 'forks in the road' to pick from, at which point I revert to single-wide ventwork. This is to prevent players from 'colliding' in the vents, making them useful as main throughfairs throughout..
Also, I'm toying with linking the two vent systems with one junction across the middle of the map, roughly over or under Messhall, with possibly one additional vent break put into the 'cut-out' in the ceiling over the Messhall RT. This will be tested later and is <span style='color:yellow'><b><i>very much in flux and not some arbitrary decision on my part</i></b></span>, as right now one vent system has the vast majority of the openings, and I'd like to balance that out. A 'unified' vent system would also lend itself readilly to weldable points breaking the vents into sections again, while still leaving the vents themselves available and useful.
And no, vents won't be intrusive to the Commander view either when I'm done. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--CheesyPeteza+Sep 6 2003, 08:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ Sep 6 2003, 08:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think joining the vent systems, especially over mess hall with a possibility of welding it would make a big change in the gameplay of the map.
I don't know if that is a good or bad thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I doubt the change would be as big as you think.
Currently, the 'secondary' vent system is(was) mostly unused in every game I played, because it went nowhere useful except in very specific situations. The exits were good, but that the vast majority of the map was on the 'other road' made everyone use that road almost exclusively. Overall impact would be easier alien and jetpack movement in and around the Mother Hive, that's about it.
The 'extra entrance' in Messhall is quite minor compared to the existing vent dropping out over the doorway TO Messhall, also, it's more a convenience idea than anything else, though it does raise the vent-density of that area quite high, and it's not really needed, so forget I mentioned it. :^)
Adding weldables to the map just seems like a good idea, since it's likely the 'weldable grate' in Mother Interface will be removed or reworked to be more feasable to actually use, and the most obvious idea would be to 'carve up' the maps vent system, so instead of actually closing off the vents, you can close off some areas from getting to others via the vents. Force the aliens to duck out of vents to switch to another section occasionally, so to speak, accessed via control panels located in rooms near the affected gates in the vents, once they were welded to repair them.
<!--QuoteBegin--Lightning Blue+Sep 6 2003, 10:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lightning Blue @ Sep 6 2003, 10:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh, you are quite wrong there.
I used it every game to get from Port Hive to mother hive, all the time. Many others did too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's somewhat of my point. Two of the hives, Mother and Port, are linked by a seperate, and tiny by comparison, vent system than Mother and Subspace Array Interface. This makes Mother a VERY strong lockdown point for Marines, if they manage to pull it off, because from there they've cut Alien mobility in the vents down noticably to and from Port Engine, making it an easier target.
And again, it's just an idea I'll likely try at least once when testing the map, it's not a decision I'm making lightly, or that I'm somehow dead-set on making it work. If it makes the map problematic in some way or another, out goes the idea, but it seems useful to unify the vents.
Yeah I used that vent system all the time too. A lot of people never bothered to learn the vent system though. I hope you can do something to make it a bit easier for beginners, as that was the last map I learnt completely. It shouldn't be that hard really.
Perhaps some see through grating over occasional corridors and rooms etc. so people can get their bearings. But that means more entities and I don't think there is many place you can do that as dd kept them deliberately outside the rooms/corridors. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe a texture with little directions. 3 different colours of text for each hive and a simple arrow. Although I think I remember reading about having too many textures or something. :/
A different texture for each vent system?
Hmm I dunno, I'm sure you can think of something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and just out the left of marine spawn there is a weldable vent. That vent joined with a vertical vent in an annoying way with edges that you always got stuck on. Hope you can fix that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
[EDIT] Oops forgot the real reason of my post.
The thing with mess hall is that if aliens got it then the marines have pretty much lost. Sure you can take Mother and outside but you don't really want to be sieging at the start of the game just to get out of your base. If anything it should be made more marine friendly, not alien friendly by adding a vent. IMO <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--CheesyPeteza+Sep 6 2003, 10:18 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CheesyPeteza @ Sep 6 2003, 10:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah I used that vent system all the time too. A lot of people never bothered to learn the vent system though. I hope you can do something to make it a bit easier for beginners, as that was the last map I learnt completely. It shouldn't be that hard really.
Perhaps some see through grating over occasional corridors and rooms etc. so people can get their bearings. But that means more entities and I don't think there is many place you can do that as dd kept them deliberately outside the rooms/corridors. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe a texture with little directions. 3 different colours of text for each hive and a simple arrow. Although I think I remember reading about having too many textures or something. :/
A different texture for each vent system?
Hmm I dunno, I'm sure you can think of something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and just out the left of marine spawn there is a weldable vent. That vent joined with a vertical vent in an annoying way with edges that you always got stuck on. Hope you can fix that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The 'sticky vent' was due to a mis-sized set of brushwork. Already fixed when I resized all the vents to 24 or 48 units in direction. :-)
And I actually do plan to 'solve' the problem of vents being hard to navigate. I'm experimenting with various possible solutions, possible see if I can squeeze in some markings to point out which way to each hive every so often in the vents, or at least indicate that at each junction, what's nearby.
Comments
The problem is, your 'point of view' is dead wrong. Your stated belief, that the author of nancy doesn't want to update it because they're happy with the 1.x version, is incorrect. DevilDog lost the original .RMF and .MAP files in a hard-drive crash, <b><i><span style='color:white'>and he is being fully supportive of our efforts to rebuild Nancy again, having assigned primary control of this project to Lazer.</span></i></b>
So kindly stop pushing your unwanted, unwarrented, unappealing, and uninformed opinions down our collective throats. Nancy is being rebuilt with the author's permission, thanks, cooporation, and enjoyment, hon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As coil already said.
DROP IT.
The arguement is over.
Keep to the *TOPIC* or we *will* lock this thread.
joev. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is locking a topic the admin solution to everything? The fact that you said that leaves me utterly dismayed ; more so than thursdays posts. Stop the offender, but why punish everyone else who put alot of time and effort into this project?
Make sure you incorporate some kind of nobuild behind the smashed in door.
Marines have been known to exploit that by building a phase gate and sieging port from there, but if it's been fixed before I opened my big mouth then thats alright then <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Instead of making a 'func_wall' to clip the 'busted in door' on port, actually, I made a full-depth func_nobuild instead.
So, yes, problem solved.
On another note, skulks can maneuver around 'my' map segments quite readilly, texturing looks pretty damn sweet aside from a few mis-aligns I need to go through, calculate scaling factors for, and wrap around odd-shaped geometry manually in Port Engine hive with the infestation, and lighting needs to get the magic touch from DarkATi to make sure nothing got broken, but it looks quite good right now.
So, we're looking good to stay well under the 400-entity limit, and even the hives aren't hitting the 'peak limit' for 'Marine' r_speeds of 700 yet, though they're all a little above the 400-ish 'average' wanted, more like an average of 500 in the two hives I've worked on.
Hell, we'll even get to keep all ours doors, and maybe go back and add some particle effects in a couple places, the rate things are going. :-)
When it's done. :-) We'd like to finish up ASAP, even in time for submission for considering for 2.1, but I get the distinct feeling we're going to do this right, instead of meeting any deadline what-so-ever.
Good job guys! Keep it up I wub you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
When it's done. :-) We'd like to finish up ASAP, even in time for submission for considering for 2.1, but I get the distinct feeling we're going to do this right, instead of meeting any deadline what-so-ever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah don't rush to meet the submition date <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Excellent, just like I remember, keep it up <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
*nods* I figured I'd be doing that before doing the final compile. I'll be sending you the final revision of both hives and attached areas later this afternoon, with final clipping installed and full compatibility with Commander Mode implemented. I've spent most of today making sure there's nowhere a Commander can click and go "Why the hell can't I drop the Armory there?!?" just like Skulks won't be able to go 'Why the hell can't I climb up to there?!?" either. :-)
Also, an alternative to the 'raise off the ground 1 unit' trick, is to make them a func_wall of course, since the newer tools support entity shadows, so it doesn't suddenly make things lit up wrong. Also, the '1 unit' trick can raise the clipnodes and plane count, but converting things into a func_wall can raise the entity count, so it's a trade-off either way.
It will when I'm done, believe me. =^.^=
Now I just want to build a full map from scratch... I'm having to resist the urge to keep building more and more of Nancy, it's like a drug and I'm hooked. =^.6=
It will when I'm done, believe me. =^.^=
Now I just want to build a full map from scratch... I'm having to resist the urge to keep building more and more of Nancy, it's like a drug and I'm hooked. =^.6= <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha I agree its a fun theme huh? Anyway, I'm going out tonight so I won't be working on it tonight, but all of tomorrow will most likely be devoted to finishing marine start and pulling everything together. (hallways are easy to copy and paste) I remember you said you wanted to do the vent system? You can if you want, just remember a few things:
Keep the texture
Keep the lighting style (including those small func_illusionaries, they just look nice)
Try and keep a similar structure (same routes, but the twists and turns can be a little different since the vents CAN be a rush job and still come out fine)
Just keep those in mind for when I send back over the "whole" source. When you get that done, do a compile and send me back over the rmf file and the bsp file. I'll get people together and we can beta it a little and hopefully it will be ready for release next week.
Things that will need extra attention and probably a few compiles to get right:
-Radiosity settings (both the command line and lights.rad file)
-Possible textrue alignment errors
-Particle system tweaks where needed
-Slight structural changes in areas that could possibly get things stuck
-Other slight tweaks
"thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's better. much better!" - Bugs Bunny
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep the texture
Keep the lighting style (including those small func_illusionaries, they just look nice)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See attachment. Vents are already finished, I'm adjusting them now to add a 'passing area' to all straightaways instead of only a few in the original, so I'll be able to 'merge' them into the map you send over quite quickly with a simple 'carve' for the openings with one 'prefab' and the actual vents themselves as another. :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try and keep a similar structure (same routes, but the twists and turns can be a little different since the vents CAN be a rush job and still come out fine)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, why rush when I have plenty of time to get it right ahead of time? =^.^=
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just keep those in mind for when I send back over the "whole" source. When you get that done, do a compile and send me back over the rmf file and the bsp file. I'll get people together and we can beta it a little and hopefully it will be ready for release next week.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, hon, all you're getting is a .MAP file, and that all I need/want/use, is the .MAP file. Radiant doesn't use any kind of 'internal' format, it uses the same file-format the compile tools use. So just pitch an exported .MAP file my way? :-)
<!--QuoteBegin--Lazer+Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lazer @ Sep 5 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Things that will need extra attention and probably a few compiles to get right:<ul>
<li>Radiosity settings (both the command line and lights.rad file)
<li>Possible textrue alignment errors
<li>Particle system tweaks where needed
<li>Slight structural changes in areas that could possibly get things stuck
<li>Other slight tweaks</ul><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Radiosity settings will be adjusted a little. I'll send back multiple versions of the .BSP file with full-quality lighting with various settings of -dscale and -scale so we can pick how 'harsh' we want the lighting to be, before we adjust it to properly 'fill out' areas.
As for texture alignment errors... *chuckles* I'll kill those, believe me. The 'red hallway' by Port Engine was the only area I went over with the proverbial fine-toothed comb, unfortunately. Wanted to get the brushwork back to you sooner rather than latter.
As for particle systems... actually, right now I don't know if the map's using any particle systems. =^.6= I'd LOVE to add a few, hissing pipes under the grating-floors, dripping pipes, etc, provided we have the entities to spare. :-)
And structural... *chuckles* I'll avoid going crazy, but I WILL remove 'stuck' points. XP-Cagey's tools by themselves remove a LOT of 'stuck' points, all in fact with the settings I use and proper use of the 'bevel' texture. :-) You'll see. =^.^=
Anyways, back to building and adjust the vents ahead of time...
Note, the red areas are 'single wide' areas, exactly 24 units wide/tall/deep/long/etc... The black areas are 'throughfairs' which are double-wide, meaning you can pass if you each hug opposite walls.
All junctions are in corners or on edges. Whenever two 'red vents' would touch for the first time, that is the point they become a 'black vent' with one exception where the two entrances are all of an Onos-width apart in-game, opposite sides of a wall pretty much. There are no 'double tall' vents, or vents that aren't 24 or 48 units in size.
Also, note this screenshot is showing the 'inside world' edges, the actual vents, obviously, are a smidge thicker because of their walls. :-)
And if you overlay the two images, no, they don't quite line up, the zoom factors don't quite match. Also, this layout will look 'simplified' in one area near the upper-middle/right segment, that was done on purpose, and judging from the surrounding world geometry will not cause any problems. In any case, comments anyone? :-)
Also, any preferences for signposting? Or does anyone really care about that? =^.^= And by signposting, lighting ideas, or should I try the 'decal' approach I mentioned previously, or something else entirely? :-)
Linking the two vents wouldn't be difficult, there's more than enough room around the map, so it's easy to do. I'll try one compile with the vent systems 'unified' when we beta-test the new version. Might be a good concept for adding 'weldable' points to Nancy, also. Make them only allow closing 'seals' inside the vents, so you don't actually close off the vents, only break them into sections.
I think <b>everyone</b> would, hon. It's up to Lazer though, what route testing it takes. =^.^=
Personally, I'd say punt it to Flayra and test it with the NS folks, just to avoid a 'wandering beta version' floating around the Internet.
From Messhall to Mother and Messhall to PER it was a double wide vent til you got to the opening.
Remember, the smaller vent system linked PER with messhall and Mother Hive.
I'll bounce around in-game later to doublecheck <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
From Messhall to Mother and Messhall to PER it was a double wide vent til you got to the opening.
Remember, the smaller vent system linked PER with messhall and Mother Hive.
I'll bounce around in-game later to doublecheck <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 'original' vent system was double-wide and single-wide in odd places, with odd configurations. The 'original' vent system I posted above was built by taking the map decompile, loading that into GtkRadiant, then flying through it, 'flood filling' the vents with brushwork as I went. Then a manual fly-through to verify that all vent openings had been hit with the flood-fill, and all other brushwork was deleted, leaving only the floodfilled vents.
Saving these as a prefab, I re-loaded the Nancy map again, then loaded the pre-fab as an entity so I could toggle it on and off. Doing so, I re-visited the entire vent system, looking for breaks or gaps in the vents. I didn't find any.
If I missed something, it's likely due to the decompile messing up brushwork somewhere, it DOES happen. :-) But if one vent was single or double wide is a relative moot point, as I re-sized all the vents now, so they're always double-wide as far as possible, until you run out of 'forks in the road' to pick from, at which point I revert to single-wide ventwork. This is to prevent players from 'colliding' in the vents, making them useful as main throughfairs throughout..
Also, I'm toying with linking the two vent systems with one junction across the middle of the map, roughly over or under Messhall, with possibly one additional vent break put into the 'cut-out' in the ceiling over the Messhall RT. This will be tested later and is <span style='color:yellow'><b><i>very much in flux and not some arbitrary decision on my part</i></b></span>, as right now one vent system has the vast majority of the openings, and I'd like to balance that out. A 'unified' vent system would also lend itself readilly to weldable points breaking the vents into sections again, while still leaving the vents themselves available and useful.
And no, vents won't be intrusive to the Commander view either when I'm done. :-)
I don't know if that is a good or bad thing.
I don't know if that is a good or bad thing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt the change would be as big as you think.
Currently, the 'secondary' vent system is(was) mostly unused in every game I played, because it went nowhere useful except in very specific situations. The exits were good, but that the vast majority of the map was on the 'other road' made everyone use that road almost exclusively. Overall impact would be easier alien and jetpack movement in and around the Mother Hive, that's about it.
The 'extra entrance' in Messhall is quite minor compared to the existing vent dropping out over the doorway TO Messhall, also, it's more a convenience idea than anything else, though it does raise the vent-density of that area quite high, and it's not really needed, so forget I mentioned it. :^)
Adding weldables to the map just seems like a good idea, since it's likely the 'weldable grate' in Mother Interface will be removed or reworked to be more feasable to actually use, and the most obvious idea would be to 'carve up' the maps vent system, so instead of actually closing off the vents, you can close off some areas from getting to others via the vents. Force the aliens to duck out of vents to switch to another section occasionally, so to speak, accessed via control panels located in rooms near the affected gates in the vents, once they were welded to repair them.
I used it every game to get from Port Hive to mother hive, all the time. Many others did too.
I used it every game to get from Port Hive to mother hive, all the time. Many others did too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's somewhat of my point. Two of the hives, Mother and Port, are linked by a seperate, and tiny by comparison, vent system than Mother and Subspace Array Interface. This makes Mother a VERY strong lockdown point for Marines, if they manage to pull it off, because from there they've cut Alien mobility in the vents down noticably to and from Port Engine, making it an easier target.
And again, it's just an idea I'll likely try at least once when testing the map, it's not a decision I'm making lightly, or that I'm somehow dead-set on making it work. If it makes the map problematic in some way or another, out goes the idea, but it seems useful to unify the vents.
Perhaps some see through grating over occasional corridors and rooms etc. so people can get their bearings. But that means more entities and I don't think there is many place you can do that as dd kept them deliberately outside the rooms/corridors. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe a texture with little directions. 3 different colours of text for each hive and a simple arrow. Although I think I remember reading about having too many textures or something. :/
A different texture for each vent system?
Hmm I dunno, I'm sure you can think of something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and just out the left of marine spawn there is a weldable vent. That vent joined with a vertical vent in an annoying way with edges that you always got stuck on. Hope you can fix that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
[EDIT] Oops forgot the real reason of my post.
The thing with mess hall is that if aliens got it then the marines have pretty much lost. Sure you can take Mother and outside but you don't really want to be sieging at the start of the game just to get out of your base. If anything it should be made more marine friendly, not alien friendly by adding a vent. IMO <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Perhaps some see through grating over occasional corridors and rooms etc. so people can get their bearings. But that means more entities and I don't think there is many place you can do that as dd kept them deliberately outside the rooms/corridors. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe a texture with little directions. 3 different colours of text for each hive and a simple arrow. Although I think I remember reading about having too many textures or something. :/
A different texture for each vent system?
Hmm I dunno, I'm sure you can think of something. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and just out the left of marine spawn there is a weldable vent. That vent joined with a vertical vent in an annoying way with edges that you always got stuck on. Hope you can fix that. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 'sticky vent' was due to a mis-sized set of brushwork. Already fixed when I resized all the vents to 24 or 48 units in direction. :-)
And I actually do plan to 'solve' the problem of vents being hard to navigate. I'm experimenting with various possible solutions, possible see if I can squeeze in some markings to point out which way to each hive every so often in the vents, or at least indicate that at each junction, what's nearby.