Doom Iii Vs Half-life Ii: Which Will Be Better?
DOOManiac
Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">and why?</div>Note: This thread is intended to debate the merits DOOM III vs. Half-Life 2. There are several ground rules and assumptions I'd like to set so that this thread actually interesting and not just a copy of all the spam on fansites...
- Assume both games are coming out at a comparable timeframe of each other, and thus are a comparable product
(For example, you wouldn't compare Half-Life 1 to NOLF2 or UT2003 because of the timeframe. You would compare it to SiN and maybe Quake 2)
- Assume neither company screws up, and both are stellar products.
- Assume both products are graphical engine feats, so no "give me good gameplay and 4 year old graphics" rants please.
- Leave your whining about the engines not running on your Athlon 350 at the door.
- Do not even think of basing any ideas about DOOM III upon the leaked alpha, you warez monkey.
- Please DO consider moddability, multiplayer appeal, demographic of influence, etc.
- Keep this post fun, don't turn it into some life-or-death debate that's inches from being a flame war.
Okay, so there's the ground rules. Please don't turn this post into a pile of filth. Post which engine you think will be superior, and <u>why</u> you feel this way. Remember that since so little known about either product (and much much less HL2) that this is probably based mostly off opinions and past performances of the companies. So lets get started:
Personally, I think this is a tough one.
Things DOOM III has going for it that Half-Life 2 doesn't:
1) <b>Best graphics.</b> Yeah I know there aren't any screenshots of HL2 yet. So why do I think its going to be better by default? Because of...
2) <b>John Carmack.</b> The man is a genius. There's no point in denying it, he's hands down the best engine designer the computer industry has ever seen.
3) Demons from Hell are cooler than Zombies from Xen. ^_^
4) The writer who did the 11th guest storyline (which i hear was good) did DOOM III's story. DOOM III will be a very story driven game. Its not just DOOM I gameplay w/ pretty graphics...
5) Come on, its DOOM. The game that defined (not started, but defined. made popular) the entire FPS genre.
Devil's Advocate: DOOM III Disadvantages:
- Lots of computer gamers nowadays are too damn young to have ever even played DOOM. "ololz that's what my dad played" etc.
- Multiplayer support all but non-existant.
- Content creation will be very, very hard.
Things that Half-Life 2 could beat DOOM III on:
1) <b>Multiplayer</b>. More people are playing on the HL engine than the other multiplayer games combined. Plus the HL netcode is so terrific, I would be quite happy with them just using it in HL2. And voice comm too.
2) <b>Mods</b>. While id likes mods, they don't take the active approach that Valve does. Valve set the bar for making content creation easy enough to do that normal people could learn things like mapping, and they realise that its mods that have kept Half-Life alive well after it should have died and retired to the dusty bookshelf with SiN...
3) Outstanding gameplay. Half-Life was so wonderful, and the content that they've put out since then has been supurb too. No reason other than general skeptism to believe they won't continue with that.
4) Scalabilty & Compatibility. Valve looks at the statistics of who plays their games, and what systems they have. When Half-Life came out, it was the most scalable, compatible engine around. They'll most likely continue with this.
5) If I remember correctly, Half-Life was the game to break DOOM's best-selling record.
Devil's Advocate: Half-Life II Disadvantages:
- The vast majority of HL's online gaming power comes from Counter-Strike. Tons of CS players have never even heard of Half-Life, and don't like any PC games at all besides CS.
- A large portion of the Half-Life players are using the same 1999 era systems that were around when Half-Life came out. Many won't be able to run Half-Life II
- As a whole, the Half-Life community seems more resistant to change than any gaming community I've ever seen. Many have already taken a "why should I pay for something new when I've already bought this?" stance.
So who do I think will come out on top? Well, obviously both games are going to be successes.
I think that for Single Player, DOOM III will probably walk away with that crown.
But for multiplayer, HL2 almost certainly wins hands down. Valve's only major hurtle for making HL2 the multiplayer champion will be killing Half-Life1. Counter-Strike 2 should make that a little easier...
So what do you all think?
- Assume both games are coming out at a comparable timeframe of each other, and thus are a comparable product
(For example, you wouldn't compare Half-Life 1 to NOLF2 or UT2003 because of the timeframe. You would compare it to SiN and maybe Quake 2)
- Assume neither company screws up, and both are stellar products.
- Assume both products are graphical engine feats, so no "give me good gameplay and 4 year old graphics" rants please.
- Leave your whining about the engines not running on your Athlon 350 at the door.
- Do not even think of basing any ideas about DOOM III upon the leaked alpha, you warez monkey.
- Please DO consider moddability, multiplayer appeal, demographic of influence, etc.
- Keep this post fun, don't turn it into some life-or-death debate that's inches from being a flame war.
Okay, so there's the ground rules. Please don't turn this post into a pile of filth. Post which engine you think will be superior, and <u>why</u> you feel this way. Remember that since so little known about either product (and much much less HL2) that this is probably based mostly off opinions and past performances of the companies. So lets get started:
Personally, I think this is a tough one.
Things DOOM III has going for it that Half-Life 2 doesn't:
1) <b>Best graphics.</b> Yeah I know there aren't any screenshots of HL2 yet. So why do I think its going to be better by default? Because of...
2) <b>John Carmack.</b> The man is a genius. There's no point in denying it, he's hands down the best engine designer the computer industry has ever seen.
3) Demons from Hell are cooler than Zombies from Xen. ^_^
4) The writer who did the 11th guest storyline (which i hear was good) did DOOM III's story. DOOM III will be a very story driven game. Its not just DOOM I gameplay w/ pretty graphics...
5) Come on, its DOOM. The game that defined (not started, but defined. made popular) the entire FPS genre.
Devil's Advocate: DOOM III Disadvantages:
- Lots of computer gamers nowadays are too damn young to have ever even played DOOM. "ololz that's what my dad played" etc.
- Multiplayer support all but non-existant.
- Content creation will be very, very hard.
Things that Half-Life 2 could beat DOOM III on:
1) <b>Multiplayer</b>. More people are playing on the HL engine than the other multiplayer games combined. Plus the HL netcode is so terrific, I would be quite happy with them just using it in HL2. And voice comm too.
2) <b>Mods</b>. While id likes mods, they don't take the active approach that Valve does. Valve set the bar for making content creation easy enough to do that normal people could learn things like mapping, and they realise that its mods that have kept Half-Life alive well after it should have died and retired to the dusty bookshelf with SiN...
3) Outstanding gameplay. Half-Life was so wonderful, and the content that they've put out since then has been supurb too. No reason other than general skeptism to believe they won't continue with that.
4) Scalabilty & Compatibility. Valve looks at the statistics of who plays their games, and what systems they have. When Half-Life came out, it was the most scalable, compatible engine around. They'll most likely continue with this.
5) If I remember correctly, Half-Life was the game to break DOOM's best-selling record.
Devil's Advocate: Half-Life II Disadvantages:
- The vast majority of HL's online gaming power comes from Counter-Strike. Tons of CS players have never even heard of Half-Life, and don't like any PC games at all besides CS.
- A large portion of the Half-Life players are using the same 1999 era systems that were around when Half-Life came out. Many won't be able to run Half-Life II
- As a whole, the Half-Life community seems more resistant to change than any gaming community I've ever seen. Many have already taken a "why should I pay for something new when I've already bought this?" stance.
So who do I think will come out on top? Well, obviously both games are going to be successes.
I think that for Single Player, DOOM III will probably walk away with that crown.
But for multiplayer, HL2 almost certainly wins hands down. Valve's only major hurtle for making HL2 the multiplayer champion will be killing Half-Life1. Counter-Strike 2 should make that a little easier...
So what do you all think?
Comments
*whines about AMD 750 <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->*
Anyway: THE thing that will decide that I want to play a game or not is whether it has a good solo campaign or not. Modability, well. If Valve manages to pull off a "mod converting kit" or some "mod emulator" that all our old mods will work with no or little extra work - KEWL. Otherwise it will be VERY quiet on the HL2 mod front for a year.
The game it self: id has quite a track record. Also they dont make SHORT and EASY games. If Half Life 2 turns out to be a too short, too easy game I promise you this: I will HATE it. Unreal 2 anyone? Pfft. A game that clocks less than 20 hours of solo time is not a game I buy outside of the bargain bin.
Alas the current trend is that developers are making too easy and too short lasting games. Perhaps they kill them by comittee ("Oh, sorry Joe but our 55 year old accountant from focus group 4 said he thought it was too hard. Can you make it a bit easier?") or ("Joe, the 13 year old kid from focus group 1 thinks it is too long. Can you cut a few levels or 10 out? Thanks joe.")
I'm buying Half-Life 2 no matter what.
<b>No matter what.</b>
That's not to say I won't ever play Doom 3....
My rationale: Half-Life is the best FPS to date, hands down. ValvE knows how to make a good game and they've sure as hell had enough time to make HL2, no rushed production that has ruined a few otherwise great games (BF1942 anyone? Patchs have fixed it somewhat though).
I guess I'm just a huge ValvE fanboy.
And their logo with the valve sticking out of that guy's face, so cool.
--Scythe--
Personally I think they will be around about equal in terms of graphics and speed, so instead of "better" I think it will come down to which one "succeeds".
Half-Life has the biggest fanbase to work from, any self-respecting gamer owns/has a copy of it - and if HL2 does for today's scene what HL did for its, then I'm sure it will be a winner.
Is it just me, or is all the "Half-Life had a great story" just a throwaway phrase? In my opinion, the storyline wasn't so great. It was a storyline, it was ok, but it was very much a cheesy scifi thriller. What really made the game was the moments that just made you go "whoa." For example, the tentacle beast in the test rocket launcher, or when you shot down the helicopter... those were "whoa" moments.
I'm sure Doom 3 will have those "whoa" moments as well, and from what I've seen of Doom 3 so far they really are trying to immerse the player... with shadows, demon ambushes, etc. I really can't wait for it.
Of course, I'll have to get a new gfx card for it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, Doom, don't assume that all the people playing CS have never heard of Half-Life. HL itself is still a multi-million unit selling title, and that's no fluke. Also remember that the people playing <b>only</b> Counter-Strike are irrelevant to the life of the game - the people playing the other mods aren't going to get those people as player anyway; the people you see at HL's core with the non-retail mods are not necessarily because of CS. I won't deny that CS has hugely benefited HL, but far too many people assume it's the only thing still going for HL...
But anyone who's played the leaked Doom 3 alpha will know about the <b>sheer underpant soiling</b> atmosphere of Doom3. I was absolutly rigid with fear in places, when I first grabbed the leaked game I turned my lights off and threw my surround sound on. BIG MISTAKE. I couldn't sleep for the next few nights, I still have visions of that imp leaping at me, not to mention the creature in the bathroom. Doom 3 looks to already have scaled nigh impossible to challange hights in the atmosphere stakes, but it remains to be seen how the two games will compare. I will say this though: I intend to purchase a large life insurance policy before putting my heart through the strain of Doom 3 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Back on topic, I buy games for the experience. Not to say "I beat it on the hardest difficulty level XX times," but to say to myself at the end "that was a really good plot" or talk with friends saying things like "remember that time when..?"
Games like Half-Life, Max Payne, Deus Ex, and Splinter Cell all had these. Doom 1 and 2 and Quake 1-3 just...um...didn't. ID will have to do something they haven't done before to make it a "good game" in my eyes. I'm going to assume HL2 will be a better game simply because regardless of how professional Doom 3's programmers or writers are, Valve already has a game out there that I remember liking, a lot.
And single-player? Bleh. Doom1 was fun for its time, but mindless killing of alien hordes is no longer interesting for me. HL1 was only marginally more interesting.
If any of the two can combine great mp with mediocre system requirements, count me in. Otherwise I'll stick with HL1 mods.
I do find it incredibly depressing that I've met so many people that have never played HL SP, yet rave about CS or other mods. And the sheer number of people that bought CS retail... just... gah. Gah I say! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have played every iD game they ever made (start your old man jokes now, Comp and Silverfox). That's Wolfenstein 3D, Doom 1/2/Ultimate/etc, Quake 1/2/3, (and you can throw in RTCW, sort of). Combined, over this period of 10 years, iD's storytelling abilities for all these titles combine to about 3 minutes, 30 seconds of actual storytelling, and hundreds of hours of action and immersion. iD is the engine immersion company. They drag you in with code and effects. iD is the 'Phantom Menace' to Valve's 'Empire Strikes Back'. They make up for lack of substance with amazing worlds. They have no history of telling stories, to be honest, or making their games much more than fragfests designed to highlight the abilities of a new engine so that it will be licensed and used by other game developers for serious game <i>design</i>. There's nothing wrong with this, but it's how it goes. More often than not, it's a vessel for Carmack to see an idea or theory in practice, without a lot of regards to the end-user. After all, someone will just buy the engine and make a real game out of it later...
Valve, on the other hand, is more about the gestalt (pwnt Nem <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ). They want to be a complete package even if it means sacrificing certain small things. They want a story to immerse you, not just a lighting effect. They want characters than inspire empathy, and enemies that show thought. I don't know if you've read about the CS:CZ AI at homelanfed, for example, but they brought in special talent just to raise the bar on that past what they had done in HL (which most games 5 years later fail to match - especially the female assassins <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ). HL2 will certainly be a visual feast (people forget that when it came out, the skeletol animations, 'high poly' textures, moving mouths, etc. made it head and shoulders more visually enhanced than Sin or Q2), but it's not going to rest on that piece alone. That's not the Valve way. They've pioneered the 'right way' to do things for 5 years. Many companies have done some things right, but no one has ever pulled it all together like valve before. The mod community, the support for players, the replayability, online play, the offline play - gestalt!
I will of course buy both. But I will be taking vacation time for HL2...
Great responses guys!
/me thinks of rebuttals
I think Mouse hit the nail on the head better than anyone, this is the reason why people think Half-Life's generic "scientists open portal for alien invasion" storyline was so able to pull you in.
This in itself is such a big topic to discuss it almost merits its own thread. :P
Lets assume that it is technically feasible to port a half-life 1 mod to half-life 2 (which in most odds, it won't be, though for non-programmer types I can understand them not understanding this). Instead, I'd like to discuss whether or not mods should be ported.
I think it would actually be a bad move to allow HL1 mods to easily convert to HL2. Here's some Pro's and Con's of the idea:
+ HL2 would instantly have hundreds of mods so people who don't have HL1 (for whatever reason) will instantly have more, albiet obsolete looking, content at their disposal.
- Doesn't showcase the technology. HL1 mods will still look like HL1. The engine won't look any prettier, and will probably run the same thing slower than it did in HL1.
And the big one:
- Why pay $50 to play something you are already playing right now?
I think that for HL2 to become multiplayer king it needs to have its own mods to stand on its own feet with.
That was his point, he clearly stated it wasn't a short game like many released recently to retail.
Hmm, Doom III vs Half-Life 2...
This is a tough call for me, as I love to collect games. Based on previous games I would have to say that the make or break will be cut-scenes. If either of these games can immerse the player so as to not have premade scenes, they'll both win in my books. But given that Valve has the one game so far, that's not exactly a track record, it just seems like they were born already king of the hill. And given that the most recent release from Id, Return to Castle Wolfienstien, just couldn't keep the cutscenes away, they also look to have a challenge at doing more than a demo game for the new engine.
Its kind of interesting, almost every game that I can think of that had a well liked and recieved single player game, lasted long enough to have at least one mod done for it, even without developer support. That's why I think the pulling off a great single player experience (no cut-scenes) will make or break the game for both short term and long term.
Also another interesting thing, if you follow what Valve has done with Counter-Strike and Team Fortress Classic, they've repackaged that with the original Half-Life and put it on store shelves as special editions, thus re-selling or finding additional customers with it. What does this say to those making games that a 5 year old product is still competing with their just released because of mods?
So, as far as I can tell:
Good or Excellent Single Player = Fan Base that may consist of mod developers
Good or Excellent Multi Player = Fan Base that may consist of mod developers
G/E Single & Multi = Fan Base that will consist of mod developers
G/E Mod Support = G/E Mods
G/E Mods = Increase in Fan Base
Large Fanbase = More "special" or "limited" editions sold
Purchasing Mods = Incentive for mod developers
Re-selling Original Work with Mod Extras = More Ca$h
I really don't see how gamers (customers) or developers (business) lose with this kind of stuff. Its almost as good as having a successful MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online) game, only without the need for large in-house server maintenance and customer service.
Overall though? Valve set the bar, I think they would be the ones who know how to beat it, my money is on Half-Life 2, despite the mysterious development (which may have actually helped, most successful movies did not have alot of hype around them until after they were released). I'm still going to buy both for my collection though. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
OMG Doom had a storyline???!?!!
I just remember getting that game and shooting stuff and finding keys and doors that lead to other shootable stuff.
That's all I have to say for now. With the improved graphics and gameplay, I expect HL2 to last longer than HL has lasted, and thats quite a feat.
But still no word on whether HL2 will have multiplayer.
Anyway, leaked PC Gamer article says multiplayer is in, so I'll shut up now.
From the pictures already leaked and from what I've seen, it does appear to have Gordon Freeman in it.
While I've played through original SP, Op-Force and Blue-Shift, there was one question that always remained in my mind:
At the beginning of each game, they all have an intro where it states the person you're playing, their job status, education, and risk factor in emergencies.
Like.. Gordon Freeman: Age 25, Education: MIT
But in the end of each game, it also has a status update. G-Man asks Gordon to join him or "we'll see...". So if you enter the portal, it says something like Subject: Gordon Freeman. Status: Recruited
I always wanted to know what he got to do after being recruited by the mysterious G-Man.
That and what are G-Man's origens? Where does Xen fit into this? And what does G-Man know that he doesn't let on?
The single player games left questions that made me want to play more and more. I can't say that from the Doom games, simply because I haven't really played them for more than 5 minutes.
Doom 3 looks like it'll make me have to change my pants many times. I only know this because of my research *ahem*.
I have to agree that the single player games will most certainly define which game takes off better, simply because no matter how mod-able the engine is, I doubt any mods will come out for it very shortly. And if either game is as short as Unreal2, God help us.
After seeing and carefully examing some of the high res scans, and also reading the PC gamer article, I've changed my opinion on the graphical capabilities of HL2. They won't be anywhere near DOOM III. Though that's not necessarily a bad thing: Content creation will be easier, the game is more scalable (you cheapass people with 600mhz machines won't have to kill yourselves. Hell, my MOM can run half-life 2), and I'm sure multiplayer will be at least as solid as Half-Life. But as far as technical achievement goes, DOOM III wins the gold. Carmack is my god. ^_^
Maybe HL3 will be more advanced...