<!--QuoteBegin--Twilight[ChBr]+Apr 15 2003, 12:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twilight[ChBr] @ Apr 15 2003, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I thought some situations have been raised above, but an example would be hit and run tactics as a skulk.
You take regeneration, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill one, and wound the second, then disappear around the corner. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health, and pick off the second one.
Or how about hitting an unguarded TF with turrets. You chew them up one at a time.
Of course, if the marines are quick enough, or if you meet big enough groups, this won't always work, but as said before, for picking off one marine at a time stealthily, it works quite well. One on one with a marine a fair amount of the time I kill them, but am heavily damaged myself. This way I can spend 15 seconds or so of time *anywhere I choose*, and be back at full. With carapace I would need to go back to a D chamber or a hive or a gorge, which may very well take longer than 15 seconds.
People keep telling me that going back to the hive to heal your carapace is faster than regenerating, but I find this difficult to believe unless the hive is *very* close. To do it in 15 seconds would require that you get to the hive in 7.5 seconds, and get back to where you were in another 7.5. Sometimes this could work, but often you are not this close. This also doesn't include time to actually heal.
If there is a gorge nearby, or D chambers nearby, then I find carapace to be better most of the time, but I like having the ability to heal while I'm on my way to the next destination, without having to detour. Again, it may come to personal preference, but to say that carapace is essential or not is more likely to be an opinion than anything else. You already know my opinion on it. Now I know yours...
Twilight <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are times when I've come across a marine in a hallway after turning a corner, and we're just a few feet away. I jump on a wall, jump to the other wall, slide forward down the wall, circle strafe while biting and finishing off with a sideways jumping-bite. After they're dead, I find myself with 20 or so health and little armor. Tell me how I could have killed <i>that</i> marine without carapace. Tell me what you would have done differently to kill that marine without dying if you had no carapace. How do you dodge the fire of a marine that good, well enough to get less than 9 LMG bullets into your skulk butt?
Seriously, I would like to know if you have the answer, 'cause if there is a more effective way to dodge that I don't know about, I <i>want</i> to know about it. Also, please don't tell me to wait around the corner or whatever. You don't always have overhangs to fall from, and good marines will go around corners while hugging the opposite wall, meaning you'd be just as far away but they'd get to see you sooner and while you're stationary.
Your hit and run tactics are a valid way to use regeneration, but I ask for a situation wherein regeneration is <i>better</i>. If all you're doing is hit n' run, you <i>can</i> run all the way back to the hive or a DC, or whatever. It might take a little longer, but I'd take a little longer before I'm back in action over having the ability to last if something goes wrong. Also, if you're good enough with carapace, you can just go back to doing whatever you were without going to heal and <i>still</i> have more life/armor than a non-cara skulk. That slightly longer combat down-time starts to look more attractive when you can kill twice as many befoe the down-time kicks in. But you know what? Rarely would a carapace skulk do that, since they don't want to take the risk of dying because a skilled marine got a <i>tiny</i> bit of luck. You on the other hand are willing to take that chance for what, 5 to 10 less seconds of downtime? Not for me thankyou.
Turrets? I can do that with carapace by hitting and running away to heal. I can also take out a turret without dying depending on how the other turrets are placed, then chew the TF from any weak point presented without ever leaving the spot. That leaves zero downtime between attacking the outpost and taking out the turret (I still run outta stamina, but ah well). Can you do that with regen (and lets say you have at least one turret covering the one you're taking out)? Or more importantly, can you do it <i>better</i> with regen?
There's another part of carapace: versatility. A skulk with carapace has the ability to handle more combat situations than a non-carapace one. That's good. If my team says we gotta take down X outpost, I wanna know that I can do that without /killing and spending another 2 res. As a carapace skulk you can do anything a regen or redem skulk can do, or better (AFAIK). And you can do things the others can't. Why lock yourself into a weaker position? You <i>can</i> do it , but why? If it's all style... so what? Why do we need to know about it? Sure you can kill a marine with regen if you go about it right (which limits your ability to take opportunities presented that a cara skulk could take advantage of), but why do that, when you could do it as well or better with cara and be more versatile to boot?
You still haven't told me a situation wherein regen or redempt is just plum <i>better</i> than carapace enough to make taking them worthwhile. I'm not looking for a situation where they are as good, since cara is better for other situations, it's going to take more than <i>just as good</i> to swing me to taking the others over cara for a situation. Don't take this as being a confrontational question. I'm asking you, can you tell me why I should choose regen or redem over cara because I want to know it if it exists so that when it comes up I can make the informed choice. I can't see you coming up with such a situation, but you never know.
EDIT: Accidently said turret when I meant TF... twice. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Face it, if your little scenario works, the 2nd marine sucks, <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>or he seriously screwed up.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean... how can you RUN AWAY from a marine when you're 4-5 unupgraded LMG bullets away from dying? It takes less than half of a second for any weapon to kill you, there's no way you'll get to cover in time, assuming the marine is any good and he isn't messing up for some reason or another. It's never a wise tactic to count on the incompetence or bad luck/mess ups of your opponents.
On a related note, to address your "it works for me" argument: If I can win most of warcraft 3 games doing burrow rushes, does it mean it's actually a good tactic because it "works for me", or does it mean I should seek better competition?
<!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+Apr 15 2003, 10:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ Apr 15 2003, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> On a related note, to address your "it works for me" argument: If I can win most of warcraft 3 games doing burrow rushes, does it mean it's actually a good tactic because it "works for me", or does it mean I should seek better competition? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I already mentioned that I play on a number of different servers. I would think that I would have encountered the whole gamut of skills. Maybe you're right and the times I end up dying are the skilled marines, and the ones it works on are not. Either way, it works enough of the time that I enjoy playing that way, just as I enjoy taking sensory first.
I prefer having the ability to be self-sufficient. I played peek-a-boo with a marine just outside of the marine start on Nothing (Not the docking wing side, the other one). I had a long distance view of this marine, and he kept shooting at me from a distance and I would duck around the corner, and then come back and parasite him a couple of times, then repeat. I kept him busying playing with me while my teammates hit the base from the docking wing entrance, and ended up more than enough damage to kill a carapaced skulk, but since I had regen, and the damage never came all at once (I was good at dodging...), I lived (Got a parasite kill on him finally too, if I recall).
Another nice place for regeneration on a skulk is the vent into the marine start on Caged. I can keep peeking over the edge and parasiting marines, and then retreating to heal from the few bullets that nick me. If I'm careful I can keep this up for quite a while. Granted, a carapaced skulks backed with defense chambers would be better, but I can do this earlier on.
Again, I still think it largely comes down to preference, and you already know my preference. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Twilight[ChBr]+Apr 15 2003, 11:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twilight[ChBr] @ Apr 15 2003, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Another nice place for regeneration on a skulk is the vent into the marine start on Caged. I can keep peeking over the edge and parasiting marines, and then retreating to heal from the few bullets that nick me. If I'm careful I can keep this up for quite a while. Granted, a carapaced skulks backed with defense chambers would be better, but I can do this earlier on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That <i>is</i> true. This is a big thing on ns_bast too. I often find myself in that little vent at marine start grumbling at myself 'cause I got nicked by a few too many bullets and now have to run off to the hive. Generally I don't bother for that reason. I suppose that is a reason to choose regen, but then, 5 pistol bullets isn't too hard for a good marine to hit you with as you parasite. Seems overly specialised though, dedicated parasiter...
Comments
You take regeneration, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill one, and wound the second, then disappear around the corner. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health, and pick off the second one.
Or how about hitting an unguarded TF with turrets. You chew them up one at a time.
Of course, if the marines are quick enough, or if you meet big enough groups, this won't always work, but as said before, for picking off one marine at a time stealthily, it works quite well. One on one with a marine a fair amount of the time I kill them, but am heavily damaged myself. This way I can spend 15 seconds or so of time *anywhere I choose*, and be back at full. With carapace I would need to go back to a D chamber or a hive or a gorge, which may very well take longer than 15 seconds.
People keep telling me that going back to the hive to heal your carapace is faster than regenerating, but I find this difficult to believe unless the hive is *very* close. To do it in 15 seconds would require that you get to the hive in 7.5 seconds, and get back to where you were in another 7.5. Sometimes this could work, but often you are not this close. This also doesn't include time to actually heal.
If there is a gorge nearby, or D chambers nearby, then I find carapace to be better most of the time, but I like having the ability to heal while I'm on my way to the next destination, without having to detour. Again, it may come to personal preference, but to say that carapace is essential or not is more likely to be an opinion than anything else. You already know my opinion on it. Now I know yours...
Twilight <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are times when I've come across a marine in a hallway after turning a corner, and we're just a few feet away. I jump on a wall, jump to the other wall, slide forward down the wall, circle strafe while biting and finishing off with a sideways jumping-bite. After they're dead, I find myself with 20 or so health and little armor. Tell me how I could have killed <i>that</i> marine without carapace. Tell me what you would have done differently to kill that marine without dying if you had no carapace. How do you dodge the fire of a marine that good, well enough to get less than 9 LMG bullets into your skulk butt?
Seriously, I would like to know if you have the answer, 'cause if there is a more effective way to dodge that I don't know about, I <i>want</i> to know about it. Also, please don't tell me to wait around the corner or whatever. You don't always have overhangs to fall from, and good marines will go around corners while hugging the opposite wall, meaning you'd be just as far away but they'd get to see you sooner and while you're stationary.
Your hit and run tactics are a valid way to use regeneration, but I ask for a situation wherein regeneration is <i>better</i>. If all you're doing is hit n' run, you <i>can</i> run all the way back to the hive or a DC, or whatever. It might take a little longer, but I'd take a little longer before I'm back in action over having the ability to last if something goes wrong. Also, if you're good enough with carapace, you can just go back to doing whatever you were without going to heal and <i>still</i> have more life/armor than a non-cara skulk. That slightly longer combat down-time starts to look more attractive when you can kill twice as many befoe the down-time kicks in. But you know what? Rarely would a carapace skulk do that, since they don't want to take the risk of dying because a skilled marine got a <i>tiny</i> bit of luck. You on the other hand are willing to take that chance for what, 5 to 10 less seconds of downtime? Not for me thankyou.
Turrets? I can do that with carapace by hitting and running away to heal. I can also take out a turret without dying depending on how the other turrets are placed, then chew the TF from any weak point presented without ever leaving the spot. That leaves zero downtime between attacking the outpost and taking out the turret (I still run outta stamina, but ah well). Can you do that with regen (and lets say you have at least one turret covering the one you're taking out)? Or more importantly, can you do it <i>better</i> with regen?
There's another part of carapace: versatility. A skulk with carapace has the ability to handle more combat situations than a non-carapace one. That's good. If my team says we gotta take down X outpost, I wanna know that I can do that without /killing and spending another 2 res. As a carapace skulk you can do anything a regen or redem skulk can do, or better (AFAIK). And you can do things the others can't. Why lock yourself into a weaker position? You <i>can</i> do it , but why? If it's all style... so what? Why do we need to know about it? Sure you can kill a marine with regen if you go about it right (which limits your ability to take opportunities presented that a cara skulk could take advantage of), but why do that, when you could do it as well or better with cara and be more versatile to boot?
You still haven't told me a situation wherein regen or redempt is just plum <i>better</i> than carapace enough to make taking them worthwhile. I'm not looking for a situation where they are as good, since cara is better for other situations, it's going to take more than <i>just as good</i> to swing me to taking the others over cara for a situation. Don't take this as being a confrontational question. I'm asking you, can you tell me why I should choose regen or redem over cara because I want to know it if it exists so that when it comes up I can make the informed choice. I can't see you coming up with such a situation, but you never know.
EDIT: Accidently said turret when I meant TF... twice. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Face it, if your little scenario works, the 2nd marine sucks, <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>or he seriously screwed up.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean... how can you RUN AWAY from a marine when you're 4-5 unupgraded LMG bullets away from dying? It takes less than half of a second for any weapon to kill you, there's no way you'll get to cover in time, assuming the marine is any good and he isn't messing up for some reason or another. It's never a wise tactic to count on the incompetence or bad luck/mess ups of your opponents.
On a related note, to address your "it works for me" argument: If I can win most of warcraft 3 games doing burrow rushes, does it mean it's actually a good tactic because it "works for me", or does it mean I should seek better competition?
I already mentioned that I play on a number of different servers. I would think that I would have encountered the whole gamut of skills. Maybe you're right and the times I end up dying are the skilled marines, and the ones it works on are not. Either way, it works enough of the time that I enjoy playing that way, just as I enjoy taking sensory first.
I prefer having the ability to be self-sufficient. I played peek-a-boo with a marine just outside of the marine start on Nothing (Not the docking wing side, the other one). I had a long distance view of this marine, and he kept shooting at me from a distance and I would duck around the corner, and then come back and parasite him a couple of times, then repeat. I kept him busying playing with me while my teammates hit the base from the docking wing entrance, and ended up more than enough damage to kill a carapaced skulk, but since I had regen, and the damage never came all at once (I was good at dodging...), I lived (Got a parasite kill on him finally too, if I recall).
Another nice place for regeneration on a skulk is the vent into the marine start on Caged. I can keep peeking over the edge and parasiting marines, and then retreating to heal from the few bullets that nick me. If I'm careful I can keep this up for quite a while. Granted, a carapaced skulks backed with defense chambers would be better, but I can do this earlier on.
Again, I still think it largely comes down to preference, and you already know my preference. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Twilight
That <i>is</i> true. This is a big thing on ns_bast too. I often find myself in that little vent at marine start grumbling at myself 'cause I got nicked by a few too many bullets and now have to run off to the hive. Generally I don't bother for that reason. I suppose that is a reason to choose regen, but then, 5 pistol bullets isn't too hard for a good marine to hit you with as you parasite. Seems overly specialised though, dedicated parasiter...