To port a popular SC saying- Don't deny the facts noob: Carpace = Instant Win Ok just thought I'd add this since it always makes me smile <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--ViolenceJack+Apr 14 2003, 02:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ViolenceJack @ Apr 14 2003, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> simple, regen is a waste of time with skulk. Unless u are taking marines on 1 by 1 in stealth u fight to your pretty much certain death. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a very big "unless". Incidentally, I tend to play more that way, and so I often find regeneration more useful. On sorties into the marine base, or against squads, I tend more towards carapace.
Also, when did everyone decide that they wanted a piece of me, so to speak? I mean sheesh, every page of this thread someone has to practice their posturing and tell me how I must suck or play against "n00b" marines, because if I would only come to ________ server, THEN I would see the error of my ways against "real" marines, etc...
People, I hit a lot of different servers, generally whatever pings low for me at the moment. I find that regen often fits my playing style better. I *haven't* said that I never die with it, or even that it's always more efficient. I find myself very effective with carapace, but I prefer regen much of the time. Not always, but much of the time.
If you want to, use your favorite game browser, find me in a server, and come "pwn" me. Then you can come back and tell everyone that you played against me, and I used regen and you killed me.
Except guess what. People kill me all the time with regen. I haven't claimed to be invincible with it. I have only said that I think it can be more useful than people realize and mostly that carapace is *not* essential to being a good skulk, so enough with the challenges, eh?
I play for fun, not to prove myself to anyone. If I'm having a good time with the way I'm playing, then isn't that sufficient reason to play that way? I just thought I would share some of my observations with the rest of you.
It was not my intent to question the skill of yourself or those you play against Twilight. You stated what you saw, and I stated what I saw. If I inadvertently insulted you or other players in making my statement, I apologize. People can have two different experience, or share two different opinions, and be civil about it, eh?
Everyone should always play the game the way they find most fun (as long as it isn't detrimental to others). If you work more efficiently and have more fun with regen, more power to you. I also mostly play on whatever pings lowest, but should we meet on a server - I've got your back.
I'm not sure if someone brought this up earlier, but in the latest patch regen was changed to be based on creature size. That in itself implies that it shouldn't be used on skulks, and redemption for skulks is just stupid. As far as the ones preaching "hit and run tactics" they haven't played in clan servers where hitting a structure will result in marines arriving there in about thirty seconds. Whereas level three carapace has consistently let skulks kill at least one turret before dying, or better yet get a TF in the yellow.
PS: As for building other chambs first all it would take is a conscientious comm to scan your hive and see no D's and spend the rest of the round rushing it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twilight[ChBr]+Apr 15 2003, 02:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twilight[ChBr] @ Apr 15 2003, 02:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just thought I would share some of my observations with the rest of you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Granted, and we're simply sharing our observation that if you were to have used carapace and retreated to heal every now and then, then you would've done much better in those same situations.
But that's not actually what you said. Your attitude has dramatically changed from the first post, and most of the response is to the first post, regardless of how much you want to mellow your statement that carapace really isn't the end-all be-all skulk defense upgrade (which, for the record, it is because you can't argue with people over the internet.)
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
The viability order wasn't changed... it's just that IMO, in 1.1 so far there are equally good reasons to get Sensory or Defense. A good deal of the Sensory kick we're all on is likely the "play with new toys" mentality, but there's no denying that the new sensory chambers are quite good. (: You'll have to wait for some sort of press release; I can't say any more.
Hmm... it seems to me <i>you</i> have unjustly targeted carapace.
Your observation, which you admit is based on no organized match experience, just-for-fun play, is that you feel the carapace upgrade makes a player sloppy, and it makes a bad player even worse. You claim the marginal increase in survivability is a "crutch" for skulkers.
To be honest with you I don't understand your point, or your thread. This is your "<i>theory</i>,"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My theory is that for many people, carapace only allows people to continue to play sloppily. It gives you more margin for error and allows you to learn, when you're first starting, but it also allows you to keep playing with bad habits, instead of discarding them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your "<i>theory</i>" is based on,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When I do use carapace, I notice a difference because I can often get 3 or 4 marines, instead of 1 to 3. This is because I am plenty good without it, largely due to my tactics, and I still use these tactics with carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is what invited those challenges.
If I am not mistaken what you are saying is <b>your</b> super l337 skulk tactics enable <b>you</b> to kill tonnes of marines without carapace but with carapace <i>and</i> <b>your</b> super l337 skulk tactics <b>you</b> can kill even more people... so this is why people shouldn't think carapace is essential because <b>you</b> can kill tonnes of marines without it.
So are you saying <b>your</b> skillz and tactics set the bar for optimal skulk efficiency and at your level <b>your</b> skillz and tactics make carapace unnecessary so therefore everyone should stop thinking carapace is necessary... because <b>you</b> can do just fine without it?
I think it is this <i>attitude</i> people find... abbrasive.
If you are just trying to say, "Practice using a vanilla skulk and you can develope different tactics that allow you to be effective without upgrades." that I think that is a reasonable observation.
But you came in theorizing "Carapace cultivates bad skulk players that rely on it as a crutch, if only they'd learn the l337 tactics I use then people wouldn't think they need carapace all the time."
I think that is kinda what drew the bad response.
I don't think you needed to point a finger at carapace, <i>any</i> upgrade can be used as a "crutch" if a crutch is what you need. To develop beyond the need for crutches you have to gain experience and learn the necessary tactics through your mistakes. A thread on a forum that accuses me of using carapace as a crutch isn't going to help me develop as a player.
I don't doubt whatever skill you claim to own but don't you think it is more effective to use you carapace-less tactics online and just be an example of someone who can play without carapace instead of coming on here waving your finger telling people they have crutches and this upgrade is bad or whatever? After all, it is just your opinion.
In other words, play the game, let your tactics speak for yourself, and allow others to develope on their own. You got to where you are from your experience, they will get to where their going with theirs... and leave carapace out of it.
EDiT: *Whew* got long. I wanted to add I'm not flaming, just pointing out why your thread may have generated some negative response and challenges.
Ok people, forget my skill level, or lack thereof. This has nothing to do with me. I just used myself as an example since I am the player whose style I am most familiar with.
The point I was trying to make applies to just about anyone of any skill level.
I was tired of hearing people complain that without carapace, skulks are worthless. I don't find it to be so, and I felt that others could be more effective than they currently were without it.
Your average player, of any skill level, can improve their skill by re-evaluating their tactics. This includes learning to play without carapace, even if it is because another chamber went down first, or because the Gorge hasn't put down three Defense chambers yet. All too often in games, I see people dying in games and blaming it on the Gorge for not having more Defense chambers up. Then I see these same people dying almost as often with level 3 carapace, but then the blame shifts to other things.
It's this mindset of "I don't have level 3 carapace so I don't have a chance", that I'm fighting against. Granted, there are times when it is true. I've been there, and sometimes when even full carapace isn't enough, simply because the marines are faster, or more organized, or simply more skilled. I just don't want to see people giving up and hardly trying because they don't have what they consider a "must have" upgrade. Sure, it greatly increases your effectiveness, but if you end up without it for some reason, do you find yourself giving up? This is why I titled my post the way I did.
Huntsman, thanks for discussion and disagreement while remaining polite. I'm glad to know it's just a difference of opinion and that we can still have fun on the same server, no holy wars about upgrades required... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Yup, there ARE some situations in which carapace is absolutely needed (of course there are also many that doesn't requrie cara). Namely: Against top-notch clanners. There is only so much you can do to dodge bulelts as a skulk. People with godly aim with still kill you.
On a more serious note you're probably right about the toys thing. When DoD 2.0 came out half the team had machine guns. Or back in Fa-mas Arms you saw a large group of people playing with the new weapons rather than the uber weapons for a few weeks.
I think the deal is, what can regen or redemption do for a skulk that carapace can't do as well or better. Describe for me a situation wherein regen is better than carapace. Carapace is the "essential" upgrade. If you're going to play a skulk to do something, you get carapace. If you just want to skulk till you have the cash for something else, you take no upgrades. Describe to me a situation wherein a player who does not want to save and wants to skulk; should not buy carapace. That's what I want to hear.
And for the record, carapace <i>is</i> essential. If you want to do well with a skulk, get carapace. If you want to go without, fine, but don't think that is the better option for a combat-worthy skulk.
I thought some situations have been raised above, but an example would be hit and run tactics as a skulk.
You take regeneration, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill one, and wound the second, then disappear around the corner. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health, and pick off the second one.
Or how about hitting an unguarded TF with turrets. You chew them up one at a time.
Of course, if the marines are quick enough, or if you meet big enough groups, this won't always work, but as said before, for picking off one marine at a time stealthily, it works quite well. One on one with a marine a fair amount of the time I kill them, but am heavily damaged myself. This way I can spend 15 seconds or so of time *anywhere I choose*, and be back at full. With carapace I would need to go back to a D chamber or a hive or a gorge, which may very well take longer than 15 seconds.
People keep telling me that going back to the hive to heal your carapace is faster than regenerating, but I find this difficult to believe unless the hive is *very* close. To do it in 15 seconds would require that you get to the hive in 7.5 seconds, and get back to where you were in another 7.5. Sometimes this could work, but often you are not this close. This also doesn't include time to actually heal.
If there is a gorge nearby, or D chambers nearby, then I find carapace to be better most of the time, but I like having the ability to heal while I'm on my way to the next destination, without having to detour. Again, it may come to personal preference, but to say that carapace is essential or not is more likely to be an opinion than anything else. You already know my opinion on it. Now I know yours...
No one is saying that carapace is essential, or they can't do anything without carapace, or that they give up without it. However, no matter how you slice it, in 1.04 a skulk with carapace is far more effective, which is why there is so much pressure to get D chambers up early. People who complain about gorges making 5 offense chambers before any defense are justified, IMO. It's not because the alien team can't play without it, but only because carapace gives such a blatant advantage that is essential early on.
As for your "not essential" comment: If by that you mean an alien team can win without it, then you are correct, it is not essential. However, that's not saying much. If the entire marine team suicides, then moving out of the hive is not an essential tactic.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
carapace is essential, in almost every situation, both in public games and in clan matches. What makes it "essential" is not that you need it to stay alive, but that you need it to be able to keep pressure and deny the marines map control.
In a public game if the marine commander decides to phase/turret up the hives, how can you stop that without carapace? It would probably be possible if you got your whole team together, but its a public, and you know how hard that is to do.
In a scrim versus a clan of relatively equal skill, most clans actually go carapace first, at least 2 before res. In a clan game if you're playing vs skilled marines with a good comm, it really is necessary not only to defend your base but to have any chance of denying them resource nodes you will need carapace.
The only situation that I can think of where its appropriate to go no carapace would be if you were playing in a clan match vs a clan of considerably less skill, and even then you would go node/node/hive/cara and get it pretty quickly.
So, in conclusion, yeah, you may be able to pull a win or stay alive with no carapace, but the risk of going no carapace rarely outweighs the minimal gain, and "owning" with no carapace only means you will own 10x harder with carapace, so theres really no excuse for not getting carapace at the very latest after the 2nd node.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twilight[ChBr]+Apr 15 2003, 12:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twilight[ChBr] @ Apr 15 2003, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You take regeneration, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill one, and wound the second, then disappear around the corner. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health, and pick off the second one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What would happen in truth is the second marine following you and filling your tiny little skulk body with lead.
An alternate scenario:
You take carapace, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill them both, then run back to a nearby gorge/DC station. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health where you were and ready to ambush more marines.
My experience with Regenerate (which I find more useful than Carapace) during ClanWars :
I simply wait for the marines to come out and play and make hit and run attacks in their back. Sure, I'll take one down or die trying, but most of the time I lure them away from their position (and signaling the rest of the clan of their whereabouts) while I go into a vent and regenerate. Sure, Carapace has many advantages, but I (and most people will think otherwise) seem to live longer with regenerate. Both types require skill to use. The argument that players with carapace seem to live longer is a bit strange.... Unless I have celerity, the marines will hunt me down before I get near a DC or hive in time (well, i'm not "elite" so most people here probably do). For Hive defence (it does exist during clanwars, ya know) carapace is the best guess (as skulk) since the hive will heal you rapidly.
However these are my tactics with the use of defence chambers ;
<!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+Apr 15 2003, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ Apr 15 2003, 02:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Twilight[ChBr]+Apr 15 2003, 12:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twilight[ChBr] @ Apr 15 2003, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You take regeneration, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill one, and wound the second, then disappear around the corner. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health, and pick off the second one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What would happen in truth is the second marine following you and filling your tiny little skulk body with lead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you mean "what would happen in truth is..."? I've done this. This is not a case of me setting up a hypothetical situation, and then you trying it and telling me the "truth" of what really happens. No, it doesn't always work, but it does often enough that I like doing it. I could just as well say "What would happen in truth is that I kill them both without getting touched", but that doesn't mean that that is what actually happened.
Besides, not having been there makes it difficult for you to tell me what happened "in truth" to me.
Why does what other people have happen to them always end up as the truth, but no one else's experiences are truth?
Kazyras, I believe that you have had that happen to you, or seen it happen to others. It has happened to me also, more than a few times, but it succeeds enough that I consider this a viable tactic. Maybe I'm the only person for whom it is viable, but it nevertheless, it remains viable for me, if no one else, and judging from some of the other posters, they find it helpful at times too.
I'm not claiming ultimate "truth" here, just what I have found to be true in my experiences. Can anyone else do more than that?
<!--QuoteBegin--coil+Apr 14 2003, 10:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coil @ Apr 14 2003, 10:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The viability order wasn't changed... it's just that IMO, in 1.1 so far there are equally good reasons to get Sensory or Defense. A good deal of the Sensory kick we're all on is likely the "play with new toys" mentality, but there's no denying that the new sensory chambers are quite good. (: You'll have to wait for some sort of press release; I can't say any more. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sensory is good for stalking as close as possible to the marine base (not neccesarily at it, but the closest safe choke point). Problem with sensory is, if the aliens are not REALLY aggressive, they get pushed back into their hive, with no carapace to take any ground back. If they arent defending a territory properly, how can they take it back? Especially with cloaking or any of the other ones because you cannot use them while you trying to engage, ony preengagement, which is fine, but does nothing if a team is say, sieging you hive.
Another thing with cloaking is, if you lose your intital posistion, there is a very little chance of taking it back, and when marines get stalked enough, they begin prefiring down hall ways and can somtimes draw a hit. Also, cloaking is not 100% invisible anymore, in bright areas, if people have a sharp knack for noticing detail, its not hard to eliminate the alien using it, and since they think they are hiding, they probably will have little to no reaction time to get out of their dangerous situation, and even if they do move around, most people cloak out in the open, so they would have to run away in the open usually, which results in a death, if that alien wasnt already killed.
Defense allows the fully carapaced skulk to absorb 19 bullets worth of damage as opposed to 9. A carapaced skulk can hold points and provide a better threat to a very offensive marine team.
Preengagement (if this isnt a word I coined it!) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> setup is really important, but protection during the figh is even more important, when bullets are flying and teeth are pericing flesh, whats more important, the setup or the execution?
until there is a way for skulks to last longer, most people who play against decent marines will take the protection in the middle of a conflict, rather than an upgrade that helps them 0 during the fight. Especially when you do not need a sensory chamber to stalk properly.
If there's one thing worse than not picking carapace as a skulk, it's running away from a marine you're already engaging. Especially when you're hurt and don't have carapace. He'll kill you so fast (5 LMG bullets?) you're better off staying in melee range and trying to kill him first. The closer you are, the harder it is for him to kill you. You run away and you're very easily picked off.
Face it, if your little scenario works, the 2nd marine sucks, or he seriously screwed up.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kazyras+Apr 15 2003, 07:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kazyras @ Apr 15 2003, 07:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Face it, if your little scenario works, the 2nd marine sucks, or he seriously screwed up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're certainly a black or white kind of person, aren't you? All of your arguments seem to be in ultimatum form. If my scenario works, than the other marine *must* suck. There is no alternative! I find it difficult to believe that that is the *ONLY* possibility, but perhaps it is so.
Either way, I encounter this situation and successfully pull it off often enough to make this method appealing to me, and that's good enough for me. Maybe on all of the different servers I pick, I usually encounter marines that "suck". <shrug> Again, it seems to work for me and I find it fun, so I usually choose that method. To each his own...
Comments
It really is....
Don't deny the facts noob: Carpace = Instant Win
Ok just thought I'd add this since it always makes me smile <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's a very big "unless". Incidentally, I tend to play more that way, and so I often find regeneration more useful. On sorties into the marine base, or against squads, I tend more towards carapace.
Twilight
People, I hit a lot of different servers, generally whatever pings low for me at the moment. I find that regen often fits my playing style better. I *haven't* said that I never die with it, or even that it's always more efficient. I find myself very effective with carapace, but I prefer regen much of the time. Not always, but much of the time.
If you want to, use your favorite game browser, find me in a server, and come "pwn" me. Then you can come back and tell everyone that you played against me, and I used regen and you killed me.
Except guess what. People kill me all the time with regen. I haven't claimed to be invincible with it. I have only said that I think it can be more useful than people realize and mostly that carapace is *not* essential to being a good skulk, so enough with the challenges, eh?
I play for fun, not to prove myself to anyone. If I'm having a good time with the way I'm playing, then isn't that sufficient reason to play that way? I just thought I would share some of my observations with the rest of you.
Twilight
Everyone should always play the game the way they find most fun (as long as it isn't detrimental to others). If you work more efficiently and have more fun with regen, more power to you. I also mostly play on whatever pings lowest, but should we meet on a server - I've got your back.
Edit:
Now I'm surprised that word is censored.
PS: As for building other chambs first all it would take is a conscientious comm to scan your hive and see no D's and spend the rest of the round rushing it.
Granted, and we're simply sharing our observation that if you were to have used carapace and retreated to heal every now and then, then you would've done much better in those same situations.
But that's not actually what you said. Your attitude has dramatically changed from the first post, and most of the response is to the first post, regardless of how much you want to mellow your statement that carapace really isn't the end-all be-all skulk defense upgrade (which, for the record, it is because you can't argue with people over the internet.)
Hmm... it seems to me <i>you</i> have unjustly targeted carapace.
Your observation, which you admit is based on no organized match experience, just-for-fun play, is that you feel the carapace upgrade makes a player sloppy, and it makes a bad player even worse. You claim the marginal increase in survivability is a "crutch" for skulkers.
To be honest with you I don't understand your point, or your thread. This is your "<i>theory</i>,"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My theory is that for many people, carapace only allows people to continue to play sloppily. It gives you more margin for error and allows you to learn, when you're first starting, but it also allows you to keep playing with bad habits, instead of discarding them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your "<i>theory</i>" is based on,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When I do use carapace, I notice a difference because I can often get 3 or 4 marines, instead of 1 to 3. This is because I am plenty good without it, largely due to my tactics, and I still use these tactics with carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is what invited those challenges.
If I am not mistaken what you are saying is <b>your</b> super l337 skulk tactics enable <b>you</b> to kill tonnes of marines without carapace but with carapace <i>and</i> <b>your</b> super l337 skulk tactics <b>you</b> can kill even more people... so this is why people shouldn't think carapace is essential because <b>you</b> can kill tonnes of marines without it.
So are you saying <b>your</b> skillz and tactics set the bar for optimal skulk efficiency and at your level <b>your</b> skillz and tactics make carapace unnecessary so therefore everyone should stop thinking carapace is necessary... because <b>you</b> can do just fine without it?
I think it is this <i>attitude</i> people find... abbrasive.
If you are just trying to say, "Practice using a vanilla skulk and you can develope different tactics that allow you to be effective without upgrades." that I think that is a reasonable observation.
But you came in theorizing "Carapace cultivates bad skulk players that rely on it as a crutch, if only they'd learn the l337 tactics I use then people wouldn't think they need carapace all the time."
I think that is kinda what drew the bad response.
I don't think you needed to point a finger at carapace, <i>any</i> upgrade can be used as a "crutch" if a crutch is what you need. To develop beyond the need for crutches you have to gain experience and learn the necessary tactics through your mistakes. A thread on a forum that accuses me of using carapace as a crutch isn't going to help me develop as a player.
I don't doubt whatever skill you claim to own but don't you think it is more effective to use you carapace-less tactics online and just be an example of someone who can play without carapace instead of coming on here waving your finger telling people they have crutches and this upgrade is bad or whatever? After all, it is just your opinion.
In other words, play the game, let your tactics speak for yourself, and allow others to develope on their own. You got to where you are from your experience, they will get to where their going with theirs... and leave carapace out of it.
EDiT: *Whew* got long. I wanted to add I'm not flaming, just pointing out why your thread may have generated some negative response and challenges.
The point I was trying to make applies to just about anyone of any skill level.
I was tired of hearing people complain that without carapace, skulks are worthless. I don't find it to be so, and I felt that others could be more effective than they currently were without it.
Your average player, of any skill level, can improve their skill by re-evaluating their tactics. This includes learning to play without carapace, even if it is because another chamber went down first, or because the Gorge hasn't put down three Defense chambers yet. All too often in games, I see people dying in games and blaming it on the Gorge for not having more Defense chambers up. Then I see these same people dying almost as often with level 3 carapace, but then the blame shifts to other things.
It's this mindset of "I don't have level 3 carapace so I don't have a chance", that I'm fighting against. Granted, there are times when it is true. I've been there, and sometimes when even full carapace isn't enough, simply because the marines are faster, or more organized, or simply more skilled. I just don't want to see people giving up and hardly trying because they don't have what they consider a "must have" upgrade. Sure, it greatly increases your effectiveness, but if you end up without it for some reason, do you find yourself giving up? This is why I titled my post the way I did.
Huntsman, thanks for discussion and disagreement while remaining polite. I'm glad to know it's just a difference of opinion and that we can still have fun on the same server, no holy wars about upgrades required... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Twilight
*Adjusts monocle*
On a more serious note you're probably right about the toys thing. When DoD 2.0 came out half the team had machine guns. Or back in Fa-mas Arms you saw a large group of people playing with the new weapons rather than the uber weapons for a few weeks.
And for the record, carapace <i>is</i> essential. If you want to do well with a skulk, get carapace. If you want to go without, fine, but don't think that is the better option for a combat-worthy skulk.
You take regeneration, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill one, and wound the second, then disappear around the corner. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health, and pick off the second one.
Or how about hitting an unguarded TF with turrets. You chew them up one at a time.
Of course, if the marines are quick enough, or if you meet big enough groups, this won't always work, but as said before, for picking off one marine at a time stealthily, it works quite well. One on one with a marine a fair amount of the time I kill them, but am heavily damaged myself. This way I can spend 15 seconds or so of time *anywhere I choose*, and be back at full. With carapace I would need to go back to a D chamber or a hive or a gorge, which may very well take longer than 15 seconds.
People keep telling me that going back to the hive to heal your carapace is faster than regenerating, but I find this difficult to believe unless the hive is *very* close. To do it in 15 seconds would require that you get to the hive in 7.5 seconds, and get back to where you were in another 7.5. Sometimes this could work, but often you are not this close. This also doesn't include time to actually heal.
If there is a gorge nearby, or D chambers nearby, then I find carapace to be better most of the time, but I like having the ability to heal while I'm on my way to the next destination, without having to detour. Again, it may come to personal preference, but to say that carapace is essential or not is more likely to be an opinion than anything else. You already know my opinion on it. Now I know yours...
Twilight
So scream all you want, I know it works.
As for your "not essential" comment: If by that you mean an alien team can win without it, then you are correct, it is not essential. However, that's not saying much. If the entire marine team suicides, then moving out of the hive is not an essential tactic.
In a public game if the marine commander decides to phase/turret up the hives, how can you stop that without carapace? It would probably be possible if you got your whole team together, but its a public, and you know how hard that is to do.
In a scrim versus a clan of relatively equal skill, most clans actually go carapace first, at least 2 before res. In a clan game if you're playing vs skilled marines with a good comm, it really is necessary not only to defend your base but to have any chance of denying them resource nodes you will need carapace.
The only situation that I can think of where its appropriate to go no carapace would be if you were playing in a clan match vs a clan of considerably less skill, and even then you would go node/node/hive/cara and get it pretty quickly.
So, in conclusion, yeah, you may be able to pull a win or stay alive with no carapace, but the risk of going no carapace rarely outweighs the minimal gain, and "owning" with no carapace only means you will own 10x harder with carapace, so theres really no excuse for not getting carapace at the very latest after the 2nd node.
What would happen in truth is the second marine following you and filling your tiny little skulk body with lead.
An alternate scenario:
You take carapace, hit 2 marines on patrol. You kill them both, then run back to a nearby gorge/DC station. In about 15 seconds, you're back at full health where you were and ready to ambush more marines.
I simply wait for the marines to come out and play and make hit and run attacks in their back. Sure, I'll take one down or die trying, but most of the time I lure them away from their position (and signaling the rest of the clan of their whereabouts) while I go into a vent and regenerate. Sure, Carapace has many advantages, but I (and most people will think otherwise) seem to live longer with regenerate. Both types require skill to use. The argument that players with carapace seem to live longer is a bit strange.... Unless I have celerity, the marines will hunt me down before I get near a DC or hive in time (well, i'm not "elite" so most people here probably do). For Hive defence (it does exist during clanwars, ya know) carapace is the best guess (as skulk) since the hive will heal you rapidly.
However these are my tactics with the use of defence chambers ;
Skulk ; Regenerate
Fade ; Regenerate
Onos ; Regenerate
Lerk ; Redemption
Gorge ; Redemption
While the movement chamber ;
Skulk ; Celerity
Fade ; Adrenaline
Onos ; Celerity
Lerk ; Adrenaline
Gorge ; Celerity
It all depends where you are during your map what kind of treat you use and once you're used to it, there's almost no turning back.
What would happen in truth is the second marine following you and filling your tiny little skulk body with lead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean "what would happen in truth is..."? I've done this. This is not a case of me setting up a hypothetical situation, and then you trying it and telling me the "truth" of what really happens. No, it doesn't always work, but it does often enough that I like doing it. I could just as well say "What would happen in truth is that I kill them both without getting touched", but that doesn't mean that that is what actually happened.
Besides, not having been there makes it difficult for you to tell me what happened "in truth" to me.
Why does what other people have happen to them always end up as the truth, but no one else's experiences are truth?
Kazyras, I believe that you have had that happen to you, or seen it happen to others. It has happened to me also, more than a few times, but it succeeds enough that I consider this a viable tactic. Maybe I'm the only person for whom it is viable, but it nevertheless, it remains viable for me, if no one else, and judging from some of the other posters, they find it helpful at times too.
I'm not claiming ultimate "truth" here, just what I have found to be true in my experiences. Can anyone else do more than that?
Twilight
Sensory is good for stalking as close as possible to the marine base (not neccesarily at it, but the closest safe choke point). Problem with sensory is, if the aliens are not REALLY aggressive, they get pushed back into their hive, with no carapace to take any ground back. If they arent defending a territory properly, how can they take it back? Especially with cloaking or any of the other ones because you cannot use them while you trying to engage, ony preengagement, which is fine, but does nothing if a team is say, sieging you hive.
Another thing with cloaking is, if you lose your intital posistion, there is a very little chance of taking it back, and when marines get stalked enough, they begin prefiring down hall ways and can somtimes draw a hit. Also, cloaking is not 100% invisible anymore, in bright areas, if people have a sharp knack for noticing detail, its not hard to eliminate the alien using it, and since they think they are hiding, they probably will have little to no reaction time to get out of their dangerous situation, and even if they do move around, most people cloak out in the open, so they would have to run away in the open usually, which results in a death, if that alien wasnt already killed.
Defense allows the fully carapaced skulk to absorb 19 bullets worth of damage as opposed to 9. A carapaced skulk can hold points and provide a better threat to a very offensive marine team.
Preengagement (if this isnt a word I coined it!) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> setup is really important, but protection during the figh is even more important, when bullets are flying and teeth are pericing flesh, whats more important, the setup or the execution?
until there is a way for skulks to last longer, most people who play against decent marines will take the protection in the middle of a conflict, rather than an upgrade that helps them 0 during the fight. Especially when you do not need a sensory chamber to stalk properly.
Skulk: carapace
Lerk: carapace
Gorge: carapace
Fade: Regenerate
Onos: Regenerate
movement chamber upgrades I use
Skulk: Celerity
Lerk: Adrenaline
Gorge: Celerity
Fade: Adrenaline
Onos: Adrenaline
Defense
Skulk: carapace
Lerk: carapace
Gorge: carapace
Fade: carapace
Onos: carapace
movement
1 hive skulk: Celerity
2 hive skulk: Adrenaline
Lerk: Adrenaline
Gorge: Adernaline
Fade: Adrenaline
Onos: Adrenaline
Face it, if your little scenario works, the 2nd marine sucks, or he seriously screwed up.
You're certainly a black or white kind of person, aren't you? All of your arguments seem to be in ultimatum form. If my scenario works, than the other marine *must* suck. There is no alternative! I find it difficult to believe that that is the *ONLY* possibility, but perhaps it is so.
Either way, I encounter this situation and successfully pull it off often enough to make this method appealing to me, and that's good enough for me. Maybe on all of the different servers I pick, I usually encounter marines that "suck". <shrug> Again, it seems to work for me and I find it fun, so I usually choose that method. To each his own...
Twilight