<!--QuoteBegin--Kaniran+Apr 9 2003, 04:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kaniran @ Apr 9 2003, 04:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You redemption lovers need to learn to set up a healing station. Nothing like taking twice the hits and running half as far to attack again....
Remeber: No Cara -> 23 - 29 LMG shots to kill a fade. Full Cara -> 58 - 77 LMG shots.
No Cara -> 12 - 15 Pistol. Full Cara -> 28 - 37 Pistol.
No Cara -> 13 - 17 HMG. Full Cara -> 32 - 40 HMG.
No Cara -> 1.5 - 1.9 Shotgun. Full Cara -> 3.6 - 4.7 Shotgun.
No Cara -> 10 - 13 Turret shots. Full Cara -> 25 - 32 Turret shots.
This and more facts I have NOTHING to do with, and deserve 0 credit for. <a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya I mentionned earlier that you should set up a healing station. Also the great thing about redemption is you don't have to run back to heal. When you run out of health you are automatically zipped back to the hive and healed up asap. Getting back into the action is only a few blinks away.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can we drop the ridiculous "Acid fade" / "Melee fade" labels? I don't see a little option when i go fade asking me if i want to use claws or acid rockets. You have BOTH weapons, and practically zero weapon switch time. Use them BOTH, as applicable to the situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An acid fade is one who gets adrenaline and uses acid rocket as their main weapon, possibly with claws and blink as backup. A melee fade is one who gets celerity and uses claws as their main weapon, possibly with acid rocket as backup. There is a DEFINATE distinction.
I'm a melee fade, so when I attack a target I intend to finish the job with my claws. As I close the distance, I soften them up with acid. I don't aim to fire off as much acid as I can with the intention of killing with it. When I attack a base, I rush\blink right in and fight like an overgrown skulk.
An acid fade, on the other hand, keeps as much distance between themself and their target as possible, makes heavy use of cover, and tries to drop their foes using acid. When attacking a base, an acid fade stands in the doorway and showers the buildings with acid, before retreating around the corner to recharge their energy.
I'm generalising here, but my point is the same. Which movement upgrade you get defines what kind of fade you are, and there is a definate distinction between the two styles. An intelligent acid fade will use their claws if the enemy get too close, or if there are no threats left and they are just mopping up. An intelligent melee fade will use acid rocket to soften targets on the approach. Just because they use more than one weapon doesn't make them any less of a specific kind of fade.
<!--QuoteBegin--Kaniran+Apr 8 2003, 11:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kaniran @ Apr 8 2003, 11:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You redemption lovers need to learn to set up a healing station. Nothing like taking twice the hits and running half as far to attack again....
Remeber: No Cara -> 23 - 29 LMG shots to kill a fade. Full Cara -> 58 - 77 LMG shots.
No Cara -> 12 - 15 Pistol. Full Cara -> 28 - 37 Pistol.
No Cara -> 13 - 17 HMG. Full Cara -> 32 - 40 HMG.
No Cara -> 1.5 - 1.9 Shotgun. Full Cara -> 3.6 - 4.7 Shotgun.
No Cara -> 10 - 13 Turret shots. Full Cara -> 25 - 32 Turret shots.
This and more facts I have NOTHING to do with, and deserve 0 credit for. <a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah! Thank you. I have been looking for that link for awhile. The numbers in it are wrong. See, when the guy tried to figure out how many rounds it would take to kill things he found the amount of damage that was done to armor and the amount done to life. He then divided the total amount of life by the damage to life per shot. The number he got, he used as the amount of shots it would take to kill the thing. He forgot, however, to factor in that armor runs out. In the real game carapase is MUCH weaker. For example, he says an unarmored skulk takes 8 lmg shots to kill.(this is true) However, he then says that a level 3 skulk takes around 20ish lmg shots to kill. (this isn't true) To prove this to you, add the armor and life amounts of a level 3 skulk, 70+30=100. Now add up the amount of damage 20ish lmg rounds would do, 20x10=200. Seems a little high eh? All that level 3 carpase does for a skulk is let it live after 2 more lmg rounds, or one more pistal round. Carapase doesn't seem so overpowered anymore eh?
P.S. I figure I will get flamed for saying this, but before flaming me, do you think you could look at my logic and point out where I made my mistake and not just say that I am wrong.
It's not just armor plus health. If you notice the table at the very top it notes how much damage to health and armor an lmg round does. I'm assuming this is what he/she tested. Note that even without carapace the full 10 damage is not done. Try this with a friend on a lan game or something - I don't know anyone well enough to test this, but this is does feel right to me. With increasing levels of carapace, a percentage reduction in damage is gained as well as extra armor. This percent is only subtracted as long as you have armor left, which is why you seem to die fast as lightning when you're fighting with no armor. I advise that you test this, as well as looking at other posts. It seems that there was a new one in the suggestions forum that mentioned putting armor and hitpoints into one lump sum, and there should be some info there and in other places on what carapace truly does. I hope this helps!
Carapace does not ONLY add more armour, it increases damage absorbed. ALL armour will negate half of the damaged dealt to it. This "damage dealt to it" increases with each level of Carapace, therefore, leading to and increase in amount of damage *totally* negated. Example:
(LMG per bullet) Skulk with no Cara --- 70 / 10, armour gets 30% of all damage, negates half = 10 damage in total, 7 going to health, 3 going to armour, of this 3, 1.5 is negated. Therefore, with no carapace, a skulk takes 7 damage to health and 1.5 to armour.
Do the rest, youll find out a Lvl 3 Cara skulk takes 19 bullets to kill. Use Kitsune's tables.
Sorry for double posting but i just thought of this. Redemption does not help in damage output. Youre brought back even before you can kill some stuff. And the trip back to the action may not be as short as (someone, cant rmb) said. Example, your fighting in unnamed hive in nancy, fade, redemption, back to port eng or subspace. This is very, very bad. By the time you get back, the battle's probably over. Redemption, for me, is solely for Gorges, unless you REALLY dont want to die. In that case go play Generals against a Normal GLA Comp.
<!--QuoteBegin--AIRinc.F|aReZ+Apr 10 2003, 11:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AIRinc.F|aReZ @ Apr 10 2003, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Carapace does not ONLY add more armour, it increases damage absorbed. ALL armour will negate half of the damaged dealt to it. This "damage dealt to it" increases with each level of Carapace, therefore, leading to and increase in amount of damage *totally* negated. Example: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not trying to call you stupid or anything when I say this, but where does it say that half of the damage done to armor goes away? As for testing, there is a bug in the earlier versions of ns, where the carapse continues to absorb damage even though the point value is gone. (look at the changelog for 1.03 I think). One reason why these tables stayed correct for so long probably is because most people when they tested it themselves just ran a non dedicated server off their own comp, which didn't have the serverside update that fixed this problem.
As for redemption taking you out of the battle before you can kill something, this is the trade off for not having to run away.
<!--QuoteBegin--AIRinc.F|aReZ+Apr 11 2003, 04:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AIRinc.F|aReZ @ Apr 11 2003, 04:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry for double posting but i just thought of this. Redemption does not help in damage output. Youre brought back even before you can kill some stuff. And the trip back to the action may not be as short as (someone, cant rmb) said. Example, your fighting in unnamed hive in nancy, fade, redemption, back to port eng or subspace. This is very, very bad. By the time you get back, the battle's probably over. Redemption, for me, is solely for Gorges, unless you REALLY dont want to die. In that case go play Generals against a Normal GLA Comp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? If the battle was going to be over in several seconds which is the time it takes to get back in the action, then you were probably already winning anyway.
We need to get something straight right now guys. Are we talking about getting some last hits in on a dying enemy team or are we talking about a long lasting stalemate type of battle?
If you are all talking about getting some last hits in, sure carapace is going to keep you there a little while longer, especially considering that losing marines have usually been dropped back to lmgs.
But I am talking about a long lasting stalemate, were the marines have dug into a hive and have stocked enough resources in hmgs and grenades to last them for hours. Using carapace buys you a couple seconds in that situation. But with several hmgs trained on you and grenades spamming you constantly its not going to buy you much more. And after that your dead and waiting to gestate again. I've been there. I've done this before.
Redemption on the other hand is invaluable in this situation because you may not last as long but OVER TIME you get more hits in because you dont have to gestate or save resources, just do a little blinking.
I died 30 times and was redeemed during long spammy battle but I killed a lot more hmg marines than I would have if I'd used carapace and had to blink in and out, in and out, in and out of the room. It gets tedious and risky having to do that in a spammy battle constantly not to mention server lag. It's also a pain wondering if you left too early to go heal up or worse, stayed too long. Redemption fixes all that and let's you focus on killing marines.
I should reiterate that I am still talking about a Claw Fade here. Redemption mixed with Celerity is great for clawing action. I use all my energy for blinking straight to the enemy and slashing them to bits.
<!--QuoteBegin--Little Hunter+Apr 11 2003, 09:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Little Hunter @ Apr 11 2003, 09:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AIRinc.F|aReZ+Apr 10 2003, 11:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AIRinc.F|aReZ @ Apr 10 2003, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Carapace does not ONLY add more armour, it increases damage absorbed. ALL armour will negate half of the damaged dealt to it. This "damage dealt to it" increases with each level of Carapace, therefore, leading to and increase in amount of damage *totally* negated. Example: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not trying to call you stupid or anything when I say this, but where does it say that half of the damage done to armor goes away? As for testing, there is a bug in the earlier versions of ns, where the carapse continues to absorb damage even though the point value is gone. (look at the changelog for 1.03 I think). One reason why these tables stayed correct for so long probably is because most people when they tested it themselves just ran a non dedicated server off their own comp, which didn't have the serverside update that fixed this problem.
As for redemption taking you out of the battle before you can kill something, this is the trade off for not having to run away. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Armour DOES negate half of the damage dealt to it. Im sorry but i really cant find a useful link to show you. Ask around and youll find that im right. Anyone willing to confirm?
<!--QuoteBegin--relsan+Apr 11 2003, 10:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Apr 11 2003, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AIRinc.F|aReZ+Apr 11 2003, 04:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AIRinc.F|aReZ @ Apr 11 2003, 04:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry for double posting but i just thought of this. Redemption does not help in damage output. Youre brought back even before you can kill some stuff. And the trip back to the action may not be as short as (someone, cant rmb) said. Example, your fighting in unnamed hive in nancy, fade, redemption, back to port eng or subspace. This is very, very bad. By the time you get back, the battle's probably over. Redemption, for me, is solely for Gorges, unless you REALLY dont want to die. In that case go play Generals against a Normal GLA Comp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? If the battle was going to be over in several seconds which is the time it takes to get back in the action, then you were probably already winning anyway.
We need to get something straight right now guys. Are we talking about getting some last hits in on a dying enemy team or are we talking about a long lasting stalemate type of battle?
If you are all talking about getting some last hits in, sure carapace is going to keep you there a little while longer, especially considering that losing marines have usually been dropped back to lmgs.
But I am talking about a long lasting stalemate, were the marines have dug into a hive and have stocked enough resources in hmgs and grenades to last them for hours. Using carapace buys you a couple seconds in that situation. But with several hmgs trained on you and grenades spamming you constantly its not going to buy you much more. And after that your dead and waiting to gestate again. I've been there. I've done this before.
Redemption on the other hand is invaluable in this situation because you may not last as long but OVER TIME you get more hits in because you dont have to gestate or save resources, just do a little blinking.
I died 30 times and was redeemed during long spammy battle but I killed a lot more hmg marines than I would have if I'd used carapace and had to blink in and out, in and out, in and out of the room. It gets tedious and risky having to do that in a spammy battle constantly not to mention server lag. It's also a pain wondering if you left too early to go heal up or worse, stayed too long. Redemption fixes all that and let's you focus on killing marines.
I should reiterate that I am still talking about a Claw Fade here. Redemption mixed with Celerity is great for clawing action. I use all my energy for blinking straight to the enemy and slashing them to bits. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OK i understand and agree with the point of getting redemption in REALLY long and epic battles. But lets take the case of attacking a marine outpost ok? How about... 3 marines, PG, TF, 5 turrets? Scenario :
You and another fade (with cara) go attack the outpost. You manage to kill all the marines with your friend. BUT, since your badly damaged (or continuing to take turret fire), you redempt. The damaged Cara fade is left there, possibly having to fend off against more marines, AND take down 4 turrets. By the time you get back, hes probably dead, or run away, allowing marines to rebuild or whatever. But IF you took Cara, both of you would be minimally damaged, or at least able to take out the phase before healing is needed. My point is, that few seconds of time given might be crucial into deciding whether the outpost lives or dies. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
ps. could the admins make Fade and Lerk smilies? We really need them.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
It all comes down to <b>how you play</b>
I don't <i>exclusively</i> use claws. Any more than an 'acid Fade' exclusively uses acid. But I use acid far more often than the average acid Fade uses his claws. (reads back, yup, makes sense.)
Anyone who uses just one is amputating themselves for the sake of a label. SoulSkorpion doesn't, neither do I.
Personally, Cara/Cele. I'd actually <b>prefer</b> Cara/Cloak, because you can go on a rampage. (See my previous threads, I've written <b>pages</b> on how to do it right.) But like I said, depends how you play. I often find myself alone, with a group of HA, so I need that Cara, because I'll pile in, take one down or reduce him to near death, and if nothing else, I slow them down (because they're now worried there's a Cara Fade chasing them about) while they cover corners, and my team get to come help. All an acid Fade tends to do in those situations is lead the marines further <i>towards</i> the hive, a bad thing in my opinion.
If, on the other hand (and this is much rarer these days) I'm on the offensive, I will happily blink into marine spawn, and try to slash something expensive (usually proto, or obs) up, because I've stalled them, again. Sure, if it's largely undefended, bye bye IP's, but that doesn't happen too often.
But the acid spammers who just stand outside marine spawn, lobbing in 4 rockets, then doing it again, aren't achieving anything than showing off their oh-so-'elite' scores. Which I get to beat by hunting anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--AIRinc.F|aReZ+Apr 12 2003, 09:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AIRinc.F|aReZ @ Apr 12 2003, 09:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--relsan+Apr 11 2003, 10:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (relsan @ Apr 11 2003, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AIRinc.F|aReZ+Apr 11 2003, 04:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AIRinc.F|aReZ @ Apr 11 2003, 04:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry for double posting but i just thought of this. Redemption does not help in damage output. Youre brought back even before you can kill some stuff. And the trip back to the action may not be as short as (someone, cant rmb) said. Example, your fighting in unnamed hive in nancy, fade, redemption, back to port eng or subspace. This is very, very bad. By the time you get back, the battle's probably over. Redemption, for me, is solely for Gorges, unless you REALLY dont want to die. In that case go play Generals against a Normal GLA Comp. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? If the battle was going to be over in several seconds which is the time it takes to get back in the action, then you were probably already winning anyway.
We need to get something straight right now guys. Are we talking about getting some last hits in on a dying enemy team or are we talking about a long lasting stalemate type of battle?
If you are all talking about getting some last hits in, sure carapace is going to keep you there a little while longer, especially considering that losing marines have usually been dropped back to lmgs.
But I am talking about a long lasting stalemate, were the marines have dug into a hive and have stocked enough resources in hmgs and grenades to last them for hours. Using carapace buys you a couple seconds in that situation. But with several hmgs trained on you and grenades spamming you constantly its not going to buy you much more. And after that your dead and waiting to gestate again. I've been there. I've done this before.
Redemption on the other hand is invaluable in this situation because you may not last as long but OVER TIME you get more hits in because you dont have to gestate or save resources, just do a little blinking.
I died 30 times and was redeemed during long spammy battle but I killed a lot more hmg marines than I would have if I'd used carapace and had to blink in and out, in and out, in and out of the room. It gets tedious and risky having to do that in a spammy battle constantly not to mention server lag. It's also a pain wondering if you left too early to go heal up or worse, stayed too long. Redemption fixes all that and let's you focus on killing marines.
I should reiterate that I am still talking about a Claw Fade here. Redemption mixed with Celerity is great for clawing action. I use all my energy for blinking straight to the enemy and slashing them to bits. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK i understand and agree with the point of getting redemption in REALLY long and epic battles. But lets take the case of attacking a marine outpost ok? How about... 3 marines, PG, TF, 5 turrets? Scenario :
You and another fade (with cara) go attack the outpost. You manage to kill all the marines with your friend. BUT, since your badly damaged (or continuing to take turret fire), you redempt. The damaged Cara fade is left there, possibly having to fend off against more marines, AND take down 4 turrets. By the time you get back, hes probably dead, or run away, allowing marines to rebuild or whatever. But IF you took Cara, both of you would be minimally damaged, or at least able to take out the phase before healing is needed. My point is, that few seconds of time given might be crucial into deciding whether the outpost lives or dies. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
ps. could the admins make Fade and Lerk smilies? We really need them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well I agree that in that situation carapace is very useful. But its easy to come up with a particular scenario where carapace or any upgrade is favorable. I'm not saying carapace is useless. I'm just saying that over time I think claw fades with redemption last longer because they always live to fight again, whatever the situation. I play on pubs exclusively and I see people wasting 54 res on a few seconds of glory when they could be living, learning, and helping a lot more with Redemption. I disagree that you don't live long enough to cause significant damage without carapace. Fades have a lot of health already and you can do a lot with one if you know how to play it well. Celerity and Blink will keep you alive for a long time, and Redemption with a healing station will bring you back to top shape if anything goes wrong.
Personally, I prefer carapace because I can rely on it and my abilities to get me out of a fight. I find redemption to be EXTREMELY unreliable. I know a lot of people have had success with it, but I prefer to rely on my own ability to keep me safe.
Anyways, I can't really see it being very useful for a melee fade because melee fades generally take more damage. You need as much protection as you can get, and you need to be able to stay in the fight for as long as possible before you back off. I call this "combat endurance". Acid fades have greater combat endurance than melee fades, but they take longer to kill [edit](er... I mean takes longer to MAKE kills I was very tired when I wrote this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)[/edit]. ANY alien with carapace has at least twice the combat endurance [edit]than[/edit] without carapace. I keep an eye on my health in a fight and back off when it starts dropping (usually I retreat before it hits double digits, just in case I run into trouble on the way back).
I've played a certain game of Hera in which we were only had Archiving, and they had Processing. We snuck a hive up at ventilation, some idiot gave it away and they started sieging but not beofre I and a few others were able to fade. I think we also managed to drop MTs in time. Anyways, I went cara\cele. Over the course of the game, all the other fades got killed. I myself had five or six near-death experiences (I swear, I had some kind of guardian angel watching over me). The marines were fully teched; I'd find a pair of LA\LMGs, acid them down (taking a bit of damage), then run into a HA\HMG, manage to drop him (and take quite a bit more damage) and then run into ANOTHER HA\HMG, at which point I'd take off with bullets whizzing around my ears. No blink. No easy way to even get back into the hive (had to use the lift).
When I was finally killed it was after a similar engagement to the above, but I ran into another HA\HMG on the way back home. I managed to survive him, but when I reached the hive it itself was under attack from three or four HA\HMG, which finally finished me off.
Anyway, the point of the story is that I was able to keep myself alive against highest tech marines relying on speed and armour. Note that blink was not an option as we only had one hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Personally, I prefer carapace because I can rely on it and my abilities to get me out of a fight. I find redemption to be EXTREMELY unreliable. I know a lot of people have had success with it, but I prefer to rely on my own ability to keep me safe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. The thing I don't like about Redemption is that it doesn't always work or it works when I don't want it to. With Carapace, I know exactly what I'm getting and what it does. Redemption might pull you out of the fight a certain percentage of the time, but Carapace makes me twice as hard to kill 100% of the time. Getting away as a Fade usually isn't that hard. HA 'rines are slower then molasses in January in Siberia. The only ones that can really keep up are bunny-hopping jet-packers. If you know blink-fu, even they aren't a problem.
I find Regen useful if I know I'll be working solo and there aren't any nearby D-chambers. Consistantly having to return to the hive to heal can be a real drag. I do find Redemption useful as an Onos, where a large "red zone" and high cost make it worth while.
I myself am a claw Fade. I use rockets and claws about equally, but I use rockets to weaken the marines before closing as well as being a rocket jockey to wear down bases. Most marines tend to not realize a base is under attack until structures start going down. Use acid rocket to get as many buildings as possible into the red, then clawing all of them to death before the marines can respond is a good tactic.
Yes, exactly. You guys sound exactly like I did a few months ago.
All I can say is that as a fade (which has a lot of health and thus a pretty viable red zone ratio), with two hives with a healing station at each, being shot with 3 hmgs at once AND grenades, I COULD NOT BE KILLED.
I've been redeemed 30+ times in a row so far more than once and each time the only time I died was due to a siege blast. My redemption percentage was boosted into the nineties with those healing stations but siege blasts are just too powerful.
Try that scenario on for size at least once before dismissing redemption.
But i thought the point was to do the most damage to the marines, dealing them a crippling blow, regardless of whether you die or not? Sure redemp may deal more damage in the long run, if the Gorge doesnt have healing stations around half the map but...
That's like saying a fade with no upgrades is completely useless and that is simply not true. Do you guys just blindly rush marines with no game plan or what?
I don't know about you guys, but I can kill marines just fine without carapace. You guys act like a fade cannot touch a marine without carapace. That has nothing to do with the fade and everything to do with your own skill level. But I'm not saying carapace doesn't help because it does, a lot.
I'm just saying redemption is just as viable. Its perfect for long epic battles. And if I'm guarding a hive with a healing station I become really deadly because I just keep coming back and back. The healing station will put you back in the action in 2-3 seconds.
The point isn't "fades can't kill anything without carapace". The point is "fades can stay out in the field for longer, killing more and more stuff, and have an easier time per-fight, with carapace". With redemption, you don't have as much combat endurance; you can't stay in there destroying stuff for as long. It doesn't MATTER if you get redeemed some thirty times if you only took down your target in half of those engagements; with carapace you would have been able to win more of those fights.
...I'm not explaining this very well :/
Well anyways, it all comes down to play style and personal preference. If redemption works for you, and your play style allows for it, by all means go ahead. If you like adrenaline and blinking everywhere and still using your claws, go ahead. I'll stick with my carapace and celerity and raise hell in my own style, too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This idea that aliens like skulks (and fades) can't do anything unless they have carpase is absured. Carpase as a fade sets your armor to 150 instead of 125 (right?). These 25 extra armor points will let you take 3 more non upgraded lmg shots. That isn't the 100% longer field time you carpase people brag about. I'm not saying you shouldn't use carapse, or that you guys are stupid or anything, I just think you guys are shooting down redemption just cuz it didn't work for you once. As for redemption only being good in a game with bad marines, this is totaly untrue. You will never redem till you get to about 100 hp, and if you, as a fade cant kill a marine before they do 200ish armor and life points of damage to you... but oh well, I'll leave this carpase argument for another day, this thread has gone on long and far off topic...
<!--QuoteBegin--Little Hunter+Apr 14 2003, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Little Hunter @ Apr 14 2003, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This idea that aliens like skulks (and fades) can't do anything unless they have carpase is absured. Carpase as a fade sets your armor to 150 instead of 125 (right?). These 25 extra armor points will let you take 3 more non upgraded lmg shots. That isn't the 100% longer field time you carpase people brag about. I'm not saying you shouldn't use carapse, or that you guys are stupid or anything, I just think you guys are shooting down redemption just cuz it didn't work for you once. As for redemption only being good in a game with bad marines, this is totaly untrue. You will never redem till you get to about 100 hp, and if you, as a fade cant kill a marine before they do 200ish armor and life points of damage to you... but oh well, I'll leave this carpase argument for another day, this thread has gone on long and far off topic... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1: I never said that anything other than carapace is useless. Redemption and regen have their advantages, but I prefer carapace.
2: Carapace doesn't just give you 25 extra armour points. It increases the amount the armour actually protects you, with the net result that your lifespan is approximately doubled. I'd be using regeneration all the time if it weren't for this fact. 125 points of armour with level three carapace will protect you more than 125 points of armour without carapace. Every time something damages you, some of the damage goes to your armour and some goes to your health - the higher your level of carapace the more the damage goes to your armour.
<!--QuoteBegin--Little Hunter+Apr 14 2003, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Little Hunter @ Apr 14 2003, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This idea that aliens like skulks (and fades) can't do anything unless they have carpase is absured. Carpase as a fade sets your armor to 150 instead of 125 (right?). These 25 extra armor points will let you take 3 more non upgraded lmg shots. That isn't the 100% longer field time you carpase people brag about. I'm not saying you shouldn't use carapse, or that you guys are stupid or anything, I just think you guys are shooting down redemption just cuz it didn't work for you once. As for redemption only being good in a game with bad marines, this is totaly untrue. You will never redem till you get to about 100 hp, and if you, as a fade cant kill a marine before they do 200ish armor and life points of damage to you... but oh well, I'll leave this carpase argument for another day, this thread has gone on long and far off topic... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hunter, i believed many people have already explained this to you. Including me. Pls try to rmb what we tell you if you ask for it.
Comments
Remeber:
No Cara -> 23 - 29 LMG shots to kill a fade.
Full Cara -> 58 - 77 LMG shots.
No Cara -> 12 - 15 Pistol.
Full Cara -> 28 - 37 Pistol.
No Cara -> 13 - 17 HMG.
Full Cara -> 32 - 40 HMG.
No Cara -> 1.5 - 1.9 Shotgun.
Full Cara -> 3.6 - 4.7 Shotgun.
No Cara -> 10 - 13 Turret shots.
Full Cara -> 25 - 32 Turret shots.
This and more facts I have NOTHING to do with, and deserve 0 credit for. <a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya I mentionned earlier that you should set up a healing station. Also the great thing about redemption is you don't have to run back to heal. When you run out of health you are automatically zipped back to the hive and healed up asap. Getting back into the action is only a few blinks away.
An acid fade is one who gets adrenaline and uses acid rocket as their main weapon, possibly with claws and blink as backup. A melee fade is one who gets celerity and uses claws as their main weapon, possibly with acid rocket as backup. There is a DEFINATE distinction.
I'm a melee fade, so when I attack a target I intend to finish the job with my claws. As I close the distance, I soften them up with acid. I don't aim to fire off as much acid as I can with the intention of killing with it. When I attack a base, I rush\blink right in and fight like an overgrown skulk.
An acid fade, on the other hand, keeps as much distance between themself and their target as possible, makes heavy use of cover, and tries to drop their foes using acid. When attacking a base, an acid fade stands in the doorway and showers the buildings with acid, before retreating around the corner to recharge their energy.
I'm generalising here, but my point is the same. Which movement upgrade you get defines what kind of fade you are, and there is a definate distinction between the two styles. An intelligent acid fade will use their claws if the enemy get too close, or if there are no threats left and they are just mopping up. An intelligent melee fade will use acid rocket to soften targets on the approach. Just because they use more than one weapon doesn't make them any less of a specific kind of fade.
Remeber:
No Cara -> 23 - 29 LMG shots to kill a fade.
Full Cara -> 58 - 77 LMG shots.
No Cara -> 12 - 15 Pistol.
Full Cara -> 28 - 37 Pistol.
No Cara -> 13 - 17 HMG.
Full Cara -> 32 - 40 HMG.
No Cara -> 1.5 - 1.9 Shotgun.
Full Cara -> 3.6 - 4.7 Shotgun.
No Cara -> 10 - 13 Turret shots.
Full Cara -> 25 - 32 Turret shots.
This and more facts I have NOTHING to do with, and deserve 0 credit for. <a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/104stats.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah! Thank you. I have been looking for that link for awhile. The numbers in it are wrong. See, when the guy tried to figure out how many rounds it would take to kill things he found the amount of damage that was done to armor and the amount done to life. He then divided the total amount of life by the damage to life per shot. The number he got, he used as the amount of shots it would take to kill the thing. He forgot, however, to factor in that armor runs out. In the real game carapase is MUCH weaker. For example, he says an unarmored skulk takes 8 lmg shots to kill.(this is true) However, he then says that a level 3 skulk takes around 20ish lmg shots to kill. (this isn't true) To prove this to you, add the armor and life amounts of a level 3 skulk, 70+30=100. Now add up the amount of damage 20ish lmg rounds would do, 20x10=200. Seems a little high eh? All that level 3 carpase does for a skulk is let it live after 2 more lmg rounds, or one more pistal round. Carapase doesn't seem so overpowered anymore eh?
P.S. I figure I will get flamed for saying this, but before flaming me, do you think you could look at my logic and point out where I made my mistake and not just say that I am wrong.
(LMG per bullet)
Skulk with no Cara --- 70 / 10, armour gets 30% of all damage, negates half = 10 damage in total, 7 going to health, 3 going to armour, of this 3, 1.5 is negated. Therefore, with no carapace, a skulk takes 7 damage to health and 1.5 to armour.
Do the rest, youll find out a Lvl 3 Cara skulk takes 19 bullets to kill. Use Kitsune's tables.
I'm not trying to call you stupid or anything when I say this, but where does it say that half of the damage done to armor goes away? As for testing, there is a bug in the earlier versions of ns, where the carapse continues to absorb damage even though the point value is gone. (look at the changelog for 1.03 I think). One reason why these tables stayed correct for so long probably is because most people when they tested it themselves just ran a non dedicated server off their own comp, which didn't have the serverside update that fixed this problem.
As for redemption taking you out of the battle before you can kill something, this is the trade off for not having to run away.
What? If the battle was going to be over in several seconds which is the time it takes to get back in the action, then you were probably already winning anyway.
We need to get something straight right now guys. Are we talking about getting some last hits in on a dying enemy team or are we talking about a long lasting stalemate type of battle?
If you are all talking about getting some last hits in, sure carapace is going to keep you there a little while longer, especially considering that losing marines have usually been dropped back to lmgs.
But I am talking about a long lasting stalemate, were the marines have dug into a hive and have stocked enough resources in hmgs and grenades to last them for hours. Using carapace buys you a couple seconds in that situation. But with several hmgs trained on you and grenades spamming you constantly its not going to buy you much more. And after that your dead and waiting to gestate again. I've been there. I've done this before.
Redemption on the other hand is invaluable in this situation because you may not last as long but OVER TIME you get more hits in because you dont have to gestate or save resources, just do a little blinking.
I died 30 times and was redeemed during long spammy battle but I killed a lot more hmg marines than I would have if I'd used carapace and had to blink in and out, in and out, in and out of the room. It gets tedious and risky having to do that in a spammy battle constantly not to mention server lag. It's also a pain wondering if you left too early to go heal up or worse, stayed too long. Redemption fixes all that and let's you focus on killing marines.
I should reiterate that I am still talking about a Claw Fade here. Redemption mixed with Celerity is great for clawing action. I use all my energy for blinking straight to the enemy and slashing them to bits.
I'm not trying to call you stupid or anything when I say this, but where does it say that half of the damage done to armor goes away? As for testing, there is a bug in the earlier versions of ns, where the carapse continues to absorb damage even though the point value is gone. (look at the changelog for 1.03 I think). One reason why these tables stayed correct for so long probably is because most people when they tested it themselves just ran a non dedicated server off their own comp, which didn't have the serverside update that fixed this problem.
As for redemption taking you out of the battle before you can kill something, this is the trade off for not having to run away. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armour DOES negate half of the damage dealt to it. Im sorry but i really cant find a useful link to show you. Ask around and youll find that im right. Anyone willing to confirm?
What? If the battle was going to be over in several seconds which is the time it takes to get back in the action, then you were probably already winning anyway.
We need to get something straight right now guys. Are we talking about getting some last hits in on a dying enemy team or are we talking about a long lasting stalemate type of battle?
If you are all talking about getting some last hits in, sure carapace is going to keep you there a little while longer, especially considering that losing marines have usually been dropped back to lmgs.
But I am talking about a long lasting stalemate, were the marines have dug into a hive and have stocked enough resources in hmgs and grenades to last them for hours. Using carapace buys you a couple seconds in that situation. But with several hmgs trained on you and grenades spamming you constantly its not going to buy you much more. And after that your dead and waiting to gestate again. I've been there. I've done this before.
Redemption on the other hand is invaluable in this situation because you may not last as long but OVER TIME you get more hits in because you dont have to gestate or save resources, just do a little blinking.
I died 30 times and was redeemed during long spammy battle but I killed a lot more hmg marines than I would have if I'd used carapace and had to blink in and out, in and out, in and out of the room. It gets tedious and risky having to do that in a spammy battle constantly not to mention server lag. It's also a pain wondering if you left too early to go heal up or worse, stayed too long. Redemption fixes all that and let's you focus on killing marines.
I should reiterate that I am still talking about a Claw Fade here. Redemption mixed with Celerity is great for clawing action. I use all my energy for blinking straight to the enemy and slashing them to bits. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK i understand and agree with the point of getting redemption in REALLY long and epic battles. But lets take the case of attacking a marine outpost ok? How about... 3 marines, PG, TF, 5 turrets? Scenario :
You and another fade (with cara) go attack the outpost. You manage to kill all the marines with your friend. BUT, since your badly damaged (or continuing to take turret fire), you redempt. The damaged Cara fade is left there, possibly having to fend off against more marines, AND take down 4 turrets. By the time you get back, hes probably dead, or run away, allowing marines to rebuild or whatever. But IF you took Cara, both of you would be minimally damaged, or at least able to take out the phase before healing is needed. My point is, that few seconds of time given might be crucial into deciding whether the outpost lives or dies. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
ps. could the admins make Fade and Lerk smilies? We really need them.
I don't <i>exclusively</i> use claws. Any more than an 'acid Fade' exclusively uses acid. But I use acid far more often than the average acid Fade uses his claws. (reads back, yup, makes sense.)
Anyone who uses just one is amputating themselves for the sake of a label. SoulSkorpion doesn't, neither do I.
Personally, Cara/Cele. I'd actually <b>prefer</b> Cara/Cloak, because you can go on a rampage. (See my previous threads, I've written <b>pages</b> on how to do it right.) But like I said, depends how you play. I often find myself alone, with a group of HA, so I need that Cara, because I'll pile in, take one down or reduce him to near death, and if nothing else, I slow them down (because they're now worried there's a Cara Fade chasing them about) while they cover corners, and my team get to come help. All an acid Fade tends to do in those situations is lead the marines further <i>towards</i> the hive, a bad thing in my opinion.
If, on the other hand (and this is much rarer these days) I'm on the offensive, I will happily blink into marine spawn, and try to slash something expensive (usually proto, or obs) up, because I've stalled them, again. Sure, if it's largely undefended, bye bye IP's, but that doesn't happen too often.
But the acid spammers who just stand outside marine spawn, lobbing in 4 rockets, then doing it again, aren't achieving anything than showing off their oh-so-'elite' scores. Which I get to beat by hunting anyway.
- Shockeh.
What? If the battle was going to be over in several seconds which is the time it takes to get back in the action, then you were probably already winning anyway.
We need to get something straight right now guys. Are we talking about getting some last hits in on a dying enemy team or are we talking about a long lasting stalemate type of battle?
If you are all talking about getting some last hits in, sure carapace is going to keep you there a little while longer, especially considering that losing marines have usually been dropped back to lmgs.
But I am talking about a long lasting stalemate, were the marines have dug into a hive and have stocked enough resources in hmgs and grenades to last them for hours. Using carapace buys you a couple seconds in that situation. But with several hmgs trained on you and grenades spamming you constantly its not going to buy you much more. And after that your dead and waiting to gestate again. I've been there. I've done this before.
Redemption on the other hand is invaluable in this situation because you may not last as long but OVER TIME you get more hits in because you dont have to gestate or save resources, just do a little blinking.
I died 30 times and was redeemed during long spammy battle but I killed a lot more hmg marines than I would have if I'd used carapace and had to blink in and out, in and out, in and out of the room. It gets tedious and risky having to do that in a spammy battle constantly not to mention server lag. It's also a pain wondering if you left too early to go heal up or worse, stayed too long. Redemption fixes all that and let's you focus on killing marines.
I should reiterate that I am still talking about a Claw Fade here. Redemption mixed with Celerity is great for clawing action. I use all my energy for blinking straight to the enemy and slashing them to bits. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK i understand and agree with the point of getting redemption in REALLY long and epic battles. But lets take the case of attacking a marine outpost ok? How about... 3 marines, PG, TF, 5 turrets? Scenario :
You and another fade (with cara) go attack the outpost. You manage to kill all the marines with your friend. BUT, since your badly damaged (or continuing to take turret fire), you redempt. The damaged Cara fade is left there, possibly having to fend off against more marines, AND take down 4 turrets. By the time you get back, hes probably dead, or run away, allowing marines to rebuild or whatever. But IF you took Cara, both of you would be minimally damaged, or at least able to take out the phase before healing is needed. My point is, that few seconds of time given might be crucial into deciding whether the outpost lives or dies. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
ps. could the admins make Fade and Lerk smilies? We really need them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I agree that in that situation carapace is very useful. But its easy to come up with a particular scenario where carapace or any upgrade is favorable. I'm not saying carapace is useless. I'm just saying that over time I think claw fades with redemption last longer because they always live to fight again, whatever the situation. I play on pubs exclusively and I see people wasting 54 res on a few seconds of glory when they could be living, learning, and helping a lot more with Redemption. I disagree that you don't live long enough to cause significant damage without carapace. Fades have a lot of health already and you can do a lot with one if you know how to play it well. Celerity and Blink will keep you alive for a long time, and Redemption with a healing station will bring you back to top shape if anything goes wrong.
Anyways, I can't really see it being very useful for a melee fade because melee fades generally take more damage. You need as much protection as you can get, and you need to be able to stay in the fight for as long as possible before you back off. I call this "combat endurance". Acid fades have greater combat endurance than melee fades, but they take longer to kill [edit](er... I mean takes longer to MAKE kills I was very tired when I wrote this <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)[/edit]. ANY alien with carapace has at least twice the combat endurance [edit]than[/edit] without carapace. I keep an eye on my health in a fight and back off when it starts dropping (usually I retreat before it hits double digits, just in case I run into trouble on the way back).
I've played a certain game of Hera in which we were only had Archiving, and they had Processing. We snuck a hive up at ventilation, some idiot gave it away and they started sieging but not beofre I and a few others were able to fade. I think we also managed to drop MTs in time. Anyways, I went cara\cele. Over the course of the game, all the other fades got killed. I myself had five or six near-death experiences (I swear, I had some kind of guardian angel watching over me). The marines were fully teched; I'd find a pair of LA\LMGs, acid them down (taking a bit of damage), then run into a HA\HMG, manage to drop him (and take quite a bit more damage) and then run into ANOTHER HA\HMG, at which point I'd take off with bullets whizzing around my ears. No blink. No easy way to even get back into the hive (had to use the lift).
When I was finally killed it was after a similar engagement to the above, but I ran into another HA\HMG on the way back home. I managed to survive him, but when I reached the hive it itself was under attack from three or four HA\HMG, which finally finished me off.
Anyway, the point of the story is that I was able to keep myself alive against highest tech marines relying on speed and armour. Note that blink was not an option as we only had one hive.
Exactly. The thing I don't like about Redemption is that it doesn't always work or it works when I don't want it to. With Carapace, I know exactly what I'm getting and what it does. Redemption might pull you out of the fight a certain percentage of the time, but Carapace makes me twice as hard to kill 100% of the time. Getting away as a Fade usually isn't that hard. HA 'rines are slower then molasses in January in Siberia. The only ones that can really keep up are bunny-hopping jet-packers. If you know blink-fu, even they aren't a problem.
I find Regen useful if I know I'll be working solo and there aren't any nearby D-chambers. Consistantly having to return to the hive to heal can be a real drag. I do find Redemption useful as an Onos, where a large "red zone" and high cost make it worth while.
I myself am a claw Fade. I use rockets and claws about equally, but I use rockets to weaken the marines before closing as well as being a rocket jockey to wear down bases. Most marines tend to not realize a base is under attack until structures start going down. Use acid rocket to get as many buildings as possible into the red, then clawing all of them to death before the marines can respond is a good tactic.
All I can say is that as a fade (which has a lot of health and thus a pretty viable red zone ratio), with two hives with a healing station at each, being shot with 3 hmgs at once AND grenades, I COULD NOT BE KILLED.
I've been redeemed 30+ times in a row so far more than once and each time the only time I died was due to a siege blast. My redemption percentage was boosted into the nineties with those healing stations but siege blasts are just too powerful.
Try that scenario on for size at least once before dismissing redemption.
Bad marines = youll kill 2-3 redeem kill 2-3 redeem etc...
Therefore by simple maths :
Bad marines = redemption fade!
Good marines = carapace
I don't know about you guys, but I can kill marines just fine without carapace. You guys act like a fade cannot touch a marine without carapace. That has nothing to do with the fade and everything to do with your own skill level. But I'm not saying carapace doesn't help because it does, a lot.
I'm just saying redemption is just as viable. Its perfect for long epic battles. And if I'm guarding a hive with a healing station I become really deadly because I just keep coming back and back. The healing station will put you back in the action in 2-3 seconds.
...I'm not explaining this very well :/
Well anyways, it all comes down to play style and personal preference. If redemption works for you, and your play style allows for it, by all means go ahead. If you like adrenaline and blinking everywhere and still using your claws, go ahead. I'll stick with my carapace and celerity and raise hell in my own style, too <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1: I never said that anything other than carapace is useless. Redemption and regen have their advantages, but I prefer carapace.
2: Carapace doesn't just give you 25 extra armour points. It increases the amount the armour actually protects you, with the net result that your lifespan is approximately doubled. I'd be using regeneration all the time if it weren't for this fact. 125 points of armour with level three carapace will protect you more than 125 points of armour without carapace. Every time something damages you, some of the damage goes to your armour and some goes to your health - the higher your level of carapace the more the damage goes to your armour.
Hunter, i believed many people have already explained this to you. Including me. Pls try to rmb what we tell you if you ask for it.
29 level 0 lmg bullets to kill uncara fade. 77 level 0 lmg bullets to kill level 3 cara fade.
in 1.04 the numbers are SLIGHTLY different but pretty much the same.