The Metric System
Windelkron
Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How about the US?</div> I feel it's about time for the US to move to the metric system. I know we tried it in the 1970s or sometime in the olden days. But it's time to change. If you live in the US, ask yourself:
do you know how many fluid ounces to a quart?
how much, exactly, is a tablespoon?
what weighs one ounce?
There's no harm in moving to the metric system if you don't even know the system you were using before. We should move to the metric system and anyone who uses the English system should be shot. In the knees. Just kidding.
do you know how many fluid ounces to a quart?
how much, exactly, is a tablespoon?
what weighs one ounce?
There's no harm in moving to the metric system if you don't even know the system you were using before. We should move to the metric system and anyone who uses the English system should be shot. In the knees. Just kidding.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I can however give you one simple reason why it will not be officially adopted in the U.S. in the very near future. It is simply the cost of re-tooling everything. Remember, we're talking about a big country with a huge share of the world's manufacturing. The cost for the average corporation to re-tool their entire operation to metric standards would be a massive expense with little return. It was easier for other countries to make the switch because they did so earlier and on typically smaller scales.
One of the less fortunate aspects of my job is to sometimes deal with mill/plant workers with little education or tolerance, and if you ever have the misfortune of trying to convince one of these people that the metric system is a better, more sensible solution in the long run, then maybe you'll understand how difficult it would be to convince the entire population.
So I guess this can even go so far as becoming a federal education budget debate...
But I still cannot get used to saying "I am 198 cm" rather than saying "I'm 6'4" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Agreed on the part that the classical system is well outdated. Metrics are based on the weight/volume/mass of water, and are therefore a constant; a "foot" is based on some King's foot and will never be constant.
I'm in favor of the metric system, but it will still take some getting used to <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I am slowly but surely moving over to it personally, being raised in the classic system everything still occurs to me as a foot/pound/ounce or measure thereof, old habits die hard!
Eventually we'll see the U.S. move over to a metric system though - probably completely within the next 50 years or so. How can we ever come to a world order if we don't start doing things the standard way?
Our military has just switched over to the Beret - which every major military in the world has used for a long time now, and many other things are slowly being standardized (ever notice that your car engine is 2.0 Litres, rather than ~110 Cubic Inches?).
Please resume topic, although I think Relic25 explained it all very adequately, and from an experienced position nonetheless. Rock on Kev.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
When you consider that NASA wasn't able to ensure proper error-checking of units, god help us when all the mechanics, construction workers, and architects try to work it out.
I'd like to see us switch over to numbering system other than base ten. It's a **** to design things on computer in base ten, and if we really wanted to optimize for the future, we'd try to better integrate the way we think about numbers with the way we process digital information.
But that ain't gonna happen for a loooooooong time.
** Found an article about that probe:
<a href='http://mmccubbins.ucsd.edu/marsprobe.htm' target='_blank'>http://mmccubbins.ucsd.edu/marsprobe.htm</a>
*** Here's a story of fuel error that caused a jet to land:
<a href='http://www.jimloy.com/math/metric.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.jimloy.com/math/metric.htm</a>
People are (for the most part) able to understand base 10 far easier than they are able to understand base 2.
I see no reason for us to attempt to fit a system that works well for one onto the other <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm numerically adept, i think... raised in imperial, able to understand metric without issue (IE, i can convert easily in my head, and have even started doing distances in meters rather than feet, since my stride is basically a meter), and can multiply 2 without much problem <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
10 is always going to be most intuitive (10 fingers, 10 toes). If we really wanted to be efficient in general with it I'd say switch to base 12. Base 16 would probably be the best though for the digital age.
Simpsons did it!
I could either way, im just an all around bad guesser, so it doesnt really matter to me, I know both.
How do you guys manage!? The old Imperial system is soooo clunky, no wonder so many Americans do badly at school. Metric is so sleek and refined, it's dead easy to learn. I mean, how do you guys keep track of everything?!
^_^
As for how we manage, I dunno. We somehow seem to have spent the last few centuries being the most successful country in the world, creating mass-production, inventing interchangable parts, heavier than air flight, putting men on the moon, harnessing nuclear power, all with our standard measurement systems. What you don't seem to understand is it DOESN'T MATTER. Any system of measurement is perfectly fine as long as it's an agreed-upon standard in the environment it's used in.
Why does europe have the metric system? Because it's easier? No, because it was an agreed-upon standard to consolidate hundreds of different systems into one everyone knows. For all the slamming of the US educational system both you two constantly spew, your actual logical and argumentative skills are just about zero. You just slander and whine basically. So not to get too off-topic, but I'm going to remove your posting rights if I see it again. Stick to the subject and stop with attacking something out of your very limited experiences.
By the way (just to get the whole ball rolling again) shouldn't all of Europe adopt a single standardized official language and alphabetical system now? I mean, that's the same rationale for the metric system right, and probably 10 times more useful and economical?
So get hot trying to convince the froggies to quit yammering in french and the russkies to knock off the cyrilic. Heh heh.
Back to the language part of my argument (which is the good bit): are there plans to standardize all of European communication into English? French? German? Esperantu?
As to whether theres any plans to, I don't know. Probably not for a while at any case. Langauge is to much of a culture's identity and heritage.
Canada tried to adopt the metric system, and succeeded.
And we have machine shops, and tools and everything.
Here's what we learned:
it's not nearly as expensive as you think
it's not nearly as hard as you think
even Canadians who are not very birght were able to adapt (so there's hope even for Americans <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
The US has a great space program. Take a look at one of those photos from space: you'll see that the U.S. is on the Earth.
In fact, it's part of the same planet as everyone else (note I said PART OF, not ALL OF)
Time to get with the program, My American Cousins
Back to the language part of my argument (which is the good bit): are there plans to standardize all of European communication into English? French? German? Esperantu? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'll get serious again.
No, there are no plans on unifying the European languages, although there are three 'official' ones (English, French, and German), which have to be spoken by all European officials, but to be honest, I think that there's a little more cultural meaning to a language, which touches and influences pretty much every aspect of our life, than to a measure system.
Note that I'm not advocating a change by this, I just want to say that, in my opinion, this is comparing Skulks to Onos.
Binary is tough because numbers are so loooong - humans have an easier time deciphering a short string of complex symbols than we do deciphering a long string of simpler ones. Not to mention the carpal tunnel strain of writing em out.
Hex certainly pwnz0rs, and is even more space-efficient than decimal, but you can't count it on your fingers, which is problematic for wee 'uns who are trying to figure it out, or even for the rest of us who want to keep count of things manually.
IMHO, octal is the way of the future. Easier conversion to binary, since each octal digit breaks down to exactly three binary digits. And easy to count on - you have eight fingers and two thumbs. If you use your thumbs as the eights place, you can fairly easily count to 24 on two hands. (You can count to 1024 on your fingers in binary, in theory, but in practice most people have trouble keeping specific fingers down and all other fingers up.)
Plus, when you're trying to make the conversion, no new digits, which means no overloading of alphabetical characters.
Canada tried to adopt the metric system, and succeeded.
And we have machine shops, and tools and everything.
Time to get with the program, My American Cousins <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just as soon as you can agree on a language and not have people murdering each other becuase they don't/do speak french/english.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but to be honest, I think that there's a little more cultural meaning to a language, which touches and influences pretty much every aspect of our life, than to a measure system. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I think that becuase no one here has a good answer for my point, you're trying to dismiss it. If the argument is that America should adopt the metric system so we have a single, standardized, comprehensible system of measurement, I submit that until Europe adopts a single language as the official one (not three that a few people may have to speak), then changes all their school curriculums, ingredient labels, instruction books, tv shows, pop tunes, and <i>road signs in metric</i> to this single language, that you have no case. Whatever the cost of us using the english standard measurement system (nothing, to us), compared to the EU using 100 different languages to try and conduct their business, politics, military, etc is miniscule.
Get on the bandwagon Europe - you must all speak Esperantu!!!
Well I'll raise this quickly. Europe and the United States are seperate and differant entities. The United States, despite state to state differances, is one country led by one government. Europe though has a history of seperation going back to Roman times, and the various countries there are very much seperate. The European Union doesn't bring all of Europe under one government, it mearly serves as a conveniant debating and commerical interest group (i'm simplifing it down a long way). Importantly though the EU doesn't dictate decisions in all it's member states and more so it isn't a European government: all it's member states are seperate and independant.
Now although it might be benificial for Europe to adopt the changes you proposed, it would almost certainly fail because of those differances. However because the US is a single entity controlled by a single government implementation of the metric system for instance would be not only possible, but feasible, as all it would take would be one government deciding to adopt it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->shouldn't all of Europe adopt a single standardized official language and alphabetical system now? I mean, that's the same rationale for the metric system right, and probably 10 times more useful and economical?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not quite the same as the metric system implementation in the US. For starters, Europe is extreamly culturally and politically diverse, and European nations guard their independance from each other jealously. Thus such an attempt to standerdize all of Europe would be doomed to failure, at least at the current time right from the start because the nations within wouldn't accept it. But I said that above so to continue...
To put this in perspective, not all the world speaks English or has the same alphabet, these things are very diverse across the world. But every nation on the earth except the US uses the Metric System. Now, surely it would be better for the whole world if the most powerful nation in it adopted the system the rest of the world uses? It's not like France making English it's official language, because a great portion of the world doesn't speak English. But when only one nation in the world uses an old system, when the rest of the world uses another, surely that says that the rest of the world is doing something right?
Has no one read Relic25's other half of the American view? That it will cost an enormous amount of money, time, and effort, and end up benefiting... who, exactly? How will changing from one arbitrary measurement system to another benefit us? Other than us being assimilated by the "pan continental borg"? And how does having all of the world unable to communicate in a very fundamental way (far far more than a system of measurement) not demand the use of Esperantu post haste?
Down with english, up with esperantu!
So....is this why France told multiple Eastern European nations that if they support the US proposition for war with Iraq, that it would do everything in its power to bar them from joining the EU? Please, do tell me, since they're all separate and independant, why one nation chooses to dictate the foreign policy of a nation to agree with what <i>part</i> of the EU thinks...
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span>
<span style='color:white'>Sorry, didn't see his post.</span>
CALM DOWN PEOPLE!!!
That said...
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Feb 28 2003, 12:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 28 2003, 12:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Just as soon as you can agree on a language and not have people murdering each other becuase they don't/do speak french/english.
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<sarcasm>Whoa! Where is this going on, because I want in on the frenchie bashing!</sarcasm> But seriously, a good number of us on the west coast of Canada don't like the french, but we do seem to have much more favourable relations with Canadian native and asian ethnicity here then what I observed when I traveled east to Ontario and back again. And when did we start killing each other off based on language, I didn't get that news article! Perhaps you have a website link you can share to back this claim up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
And I think that becuase no one here has a good answer for my point, you're trying to dismiss it. If the argument is that America should adopt the metric system so we have a single, standardized, comprehensible system of measurement, I submit that until Europe adopts a single language as the official one (not three that a few people may have to speak), then changes all their school curriculums, ingredient labels, instruction books, tv shows, pop tunes, and road signs in metric to this single language, that you have no case.
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If I'm reading this right, your point is that the USA taking the time, money, and effort to change 1 inch to 2.54 centimeters is equivalent to the the European Union taking the time, money, and effort to change all of its participating member nations' spoken and written languages to the same? Er, even if the EU had the authority and power in its charter to do so, I honestly don't see the point as there seems to be little corelation between language and measurement, as even all the people around the world speak it so different with slang and accents that even we have trouble understanding each other. Where as international science standard units of measurement have been accepted and are readily understood by all researchers.
The only benifits I can see to the USA keeping the imperial system would be a closer understanding of fractions and their use in every day life, which leads to the next benifit which is that two of the words used are understood easily too as the are used to describe things we use to measure (<1>inches and inch worms and moving small distances while in a prone position,<2> feet and what we use to walk - though I've never actually seen someones foot a foot long). Mmm, fractions, those sure are lovable numerators and denominators you have there, so I could see why you would want to keep them. I suppose the imperial system would be fine if weren't for pesky things like quantum physics and space exploration getting in the way. Who would want those things anyways.
<span style='color:white'>Be nice.</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever considered that these nations might genuinely not want to support the Iraq war? It isn't just France and Germany that don't want this. I check news sites often and have heard nothing of this "blocking of membership", want to give me a link? Secondly, the UK is part of the EU and yet they support the Iraq action by the US. So does Spain. So does Italy. Seems France isn't dictating them, yet all those nations are members of the EU. The EU emphatically doesn't control it's member states.
As for the second part of your statement if you disagree with me or think I've missed something please inform me or debate this in a civil manner. Your comment was both insulting and wholeheartedly uncalled for.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, so based on this argument (I think) we should all speak Urdu. Or Mandarin? Which one, because 1.5 billion people speak each language in india and china (far more than the rest of the world's combined languages) - majority rules? The majority of the world uses metric, we should. The majority of the world speaks in a hindi dialect, we should?
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I didn't say it was majority rule, I said that it was the entire world with the exception of one country. If the entire world with the exception of one country spoke Mandarin then I'd think it would be in the lone countries interest to at least attempt to learn Mandarin. If only one nation around the world is using the Imperial system of measurement then doesn't this seem to indicate that the alternative, the Metric System, is more viable?
Please re-read my post.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note that I'm not advocating a change by this, I just want to say that, in my opinion, this is comparing Skulks to Onos. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly don't care what the US measure in, and thus don't have to dismiss your point. I just wanted to tell you that your analogy is leaking because languages are a far more important aspect of ones cultural identity than a measuring system could ever be.
I have lived in the US, I went to a school in the US. I have relatives there and I think I have a fair understanding of everyday life in the US.
Now, on to my point... I hate the imperial system, I really do. But since that is not a valid argument whatsoever, let me say it this way. Many times, when we tried to fix or build something around the house, I just couldn't get enough detail out the the imperial system. Counting in fractions of inches is simply... ugh, let alone it being fractions of 8.
Noone I met in the US knew all the conversions between all the different measures, be quart, inch, gallon, foot or whatsoever.
Now, I'm not saying that the US has to change, after all, as MonsE pointed out, they managed to get along quite well so far and at least they are not forcing anyone else to use the imperial system. If they can work it out, let them keep their measurements.
Though I guess it would in the long run pay off to change it because of the time and cost that goes into converting the measurements of all the stuff leaving the US or entering it for that matter.
Now, concerning the language issue. I guess that was more cause objection, but I will play along. As stated before, the US is one country, whereas europe is one continent. Nobody here was suggesting to change the status quo on the whole American Continent.
I agree that europe would benefit from a unified language a lot, but then again, I can tell you that there are many things I could say in German, which cannot be transalted into English without losing the true meaning, same thing the other way. I bet is just like that with many other languages. Personally I like the diversity, but then again I like the fact that I can talk to people across the globe without problems, too.
Teaching every child english in all european countries is the best thing you can expect, since we can understand each other (almost) and get to keep the diversity of many languages. Talk about a working system, eh?
On a sidenote, english is pouring into our lives so much here in europe, that I actually expect there to be a major conflict between people advocating to adopt english as the official language and the ones who want to keep the native language within the next twenty years.