I'd like to chime in with my reply. Clan matches generally imply teamwork. While I may not play in a NS clan, I would assume my last 6 years of clan play would lead me to believe, most clans don't worry about personal score. I would also assume there would be a stat program out there that runs kills/deaths/structors deaths from the server logs. If there isn't one now, I'm sure one will show up in the next 4-5 months. So whether or not the tourny players know their score, they will in the end. They are there for the win, not personal glory. Following recent trends in game development, developers like to reduce the dependency 3rd party applications. While they do not want to stunt other developers, they would like to give the end player the total package. All scores in tourney play could be a welcomed change.
I like pub play and feel the current score board shouldn't be changed. This game has a very strong teamplay element, which should carry it through "look at my top score" players, but it doesn't. Reguardless of what choices are made, it never will. If anything should be changed, I would like to see the alien's deaths removed. One observation I have had from Team Fortress to TFC, is death count. In TF players couldn't see their kills, in TFC they did. In the long run, players tend to look out for themselves, rather than the team. It has already been brought up in this thread about TFC's 'my cap' problem. People become obsessed with their score. When TF had the teamcap, the team worked together.
Also to be noted; the personal cap of TFC was added to promote teamwork because of deathmatch problems. The game cycled and once again became a deathmatch game on pubs. So the choices made now may be the right choice, but may be needed to be changed a year or two down the road.
<!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Jan 28 2003, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Jan 28 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if everyone thought that way the marine side would never win. I'm sorry but that is just how it is, if everyone on the team cant pull their weight when they are attacking, then the marine team will just not win. People need basic FPS skills to play this game, not just press the "e" key and move around to waypoints. People who have the skills should be recognized. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He's not saying that players should just avoid fights or lay down and die. The problem is that seeing 2/20 doesn't necessarily tell you anything about a player's value to the TEAM. For all you know he may have been obeying orders, building structures and clearing out a whole bunch of towers. This helps the team a lot more than someone who runs around aimlessly looking for easy kills to boost their score because there are people who think that's what your value should be based upon. That's what CS and other fancy DM mods are for.
Building? Guarding? Are not these things important? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but wouldn't guarding result in kills as long as you're guarding something important? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you think of a marien on base duty, while the rest of the team is securing resource points or hives, and kill that skulk who could've eaten your infantry portals, you see what I mean.
As for the resource point system, it's just that much more complicated than that... Time, for example, is also very important. It's not just about resource points.
The idea of giving the commander a score frightens me, unless you code a super-ai bot to judge the ommander's every decision and whether the outcome was due to the behaviour of the marine or the commander <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Flayra n CO: As much as it pains me I should remind you that if you decide to follow the forum goer's votes, you'll have to make a new poll of the two highest-scoring alternatives. It is very possible one of the three top alternatives would win if the choice was between no score whatsoever and some sort of score.
-- I do not agree with your opinions, but I would die for your right to voice them --
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you thing of a marien on base duty, while the rest of the team is securing resource points or hives, and kill that skulk who could've eaten your infantry portals, you see what I mean. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you'd get the points for killing a Skulk, and if the Aliens wanted to win, they would repeatedly attack the Marine base your guarding so you'd start racking up in points. Also you would probably be building stuff at the same time so you'd be getting a lot of points under the RP scoreboard. I'm not saying a Commander should get points for his performance, just that every RP spent on Building/Weapon/Health Pack etc. would be a point in the Commander's score. For example:
Commander puts down a TF and orders Marines A and B to build it Marine C, covering Marines A and B, kills a Skulk with Carapace: Marine B gets 2 points Marines A and B complete TF: Marines A and B gets 25 points divided between them Commander gets 25 points for the completed TF
This way people are encouraged to build rather than rambo and what not. The RP's would be divided between the Marines building a structure so not everyone just wants to build and get 25, i.e. if 5 Marines built a 25 RP Phase Gate, they'd each get 5 points.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't change it (aliens only) [ 37 ] [13.65%] Proposed v1.1 (alien only, also marines in tourny mode) [ 68 ] [25.09%] Both team kills are always seen [ 56 ] [20.66%] All scores should be hidden (apart from team score) [ 110 ] [40.59%] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> CURRENT TOTALS: 1) Marine scores hidden or only shown in tourney mode: Yes: 56 No: 215
2) Alien scores hidden or only shown in tourney mode: Yes: 178 No: 93
3) Hide ALL scores ALWAYS: Yes: 110 No: 161
4) Hide ALL scores EXCEPT in tourney mode: (Same as hiding alien scores) Yes: 178 No: 93
<!--QuoteBegin--Cry Havoc+Jan 28 2003, 12:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cry Havoc @ Jan 28 2003, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Jan 28 2003, 11:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Jan 28 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if everyone thought that way the marine side would never win. I'm sorry but that is just how it is, if everyone on the team cant pull their weight when they are attacking, then the marine team will just not win. People need basic FPS skills to play this game, not just press the "e" key and move around to waypoints. People who have the skills should be recognized. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He's not saying that players should just avoid fights or lay down and die. The problem is that seeing 2/20 doesn't necessarily tell you anything about a player's value to the TEAM. For all you know he may have been obeying orders, building structures and clearing out a whole bunch of towers. This helps the team a lot more than someone who runs around aimlessly looking for easy kills to boost their score because there are people who think that's what your value should be based upon. That's what CS and other fancy DM mods are for.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 2 kills but he can take out a bunch of towers? Ok Ok, lets say there is a wall of lame by horseshoe side of eclipse. Now 5 people go to attack the hive that is at Computer Core, and mister 2/20 goes to take out that wall of lame. Who is of more use, the people that attack the hive and could potentially end the game, or the guy who has no pressure on him to take out D chambers with his knife, should this guy be rewarded over the guys at the hive?
is he the better teamplayer? or are the better team players are the ones who can listen to the commander not be dead weight.
Who would you trust with expensive equipment, the people that can move and aim correctly, or someone that can press their "e" key and knife structures.
All circumstances based on the marine team wanting to win of course. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
they are both important if the commander wants someone to attack the wall of lame at the horseshoe. Maybe he is a distraction to draw aliens away from the hive so the others have a better chance. He gets killed yet again after taking out an alien, but hes now 3 and 21, yet there are no aliens in the hive now because he drew them away. I think that is important too yet your line of thinking is that he shouldn't get weapons or score for that. If he had a nade launcher he could be a very big distraction!!!
Frags and stats change the way people play, and this isn't a rambo type game. Yes the better players will probably have higher scores, but scores are not how a good commander should decide who is the valuable players cause then its more important to kill an alien then it is to build a phase gate, so who wants to have to go build a phase gate at a hive, while the guy at base takes out some skulks giving him a higher score when the commander is going to give the guy with frags better stuff cause he thinks hes better. This game is about lots of things. A marine that can sneak to a spot and build a base without killing anything will not alarm the aliens that they are building there, yet, he may have to give up some frags to do that. should he take the frags, or not warn the aliens? If its a frag based game, then they will take the frag. If you are getting frags, I think it should be like dod where you get score for doing stuff as well. (capturing flags give you score, and also killing baddies gives you score.) But either way, I think a score is a bad direction to go for pub servers. The satisfaction should be winning the game which is the big picture here.
the other thing is that the commander can choose to send some people into battle, and some people on recon or building missions. If the players that do that don't see any bad guys, yet the others get a bunch of frags, who is to say that the better shots aren't the guys that havn't encountered as many bad guys.
yes being able to aim is good, but if you are more worried about your score then following orders, how are you going to win? (trust me, if there is a score, people will want to look like they are the best, and frag counts in this game can be misleading. I know a few players that can rambo by them self, and rack up a good K:D ratio, but if thats not what the commander wants them to be doing they are the ones hindering the team
tem should be able to view there teams scores only. While i agree that personal frag counts have no real place in NS it IS nice for com to know who to give 1st few HMGs and shotties too. On a side note i kinda like to be able to brag about kill, mabye you could put in a kill to frag ratio system?
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I would like to vote that there be marines scores but only comm can see them.
Also, it would be nice if there were some other way of judging a player than just frags. NS is about more than frags. Like building stuff the comm wants you to, going to waypoints, not DYING, not DYING WITH EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT, etc. All much more important than how many aliens you have personally killed (although that is also useful info). I don't know if it is feasible to integrate this into scores though <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Necro<insert non-birthday-related title here>Join Date: 2002-08-09Member: 1118Members
fire thats different i was a skulk, they were siegeing our hive the team was holding off the enemy advances (marines) while i was taking the buildings.
Once again, ANY good comm knows who is good marines are by the time there are HMG's to give out. ADDITIONALLY any GOOD comm knows that judging your good marines is NOT done by looking at kill count.
Me thinks it's fine the way it is. If a server reeeeeeeally wanted all the "statsme" crud, well, sureeeeeely someone making all those plugins like "gorge res stealer" or whatever could implement a statsme-type plugin for NS. Easiest way, if you ask me.
Personally, I can keep track of who has the most frags, by looking up in the top left corner and watching who's dying and who's not. I get a "Oooh... that damn '-=Clan=-MarineGuy' has killed a few guys now! I better watch out for him" kind of thought. Scores aren't needed. Knowing who to watchout for is handy, but I can keep track of that myself. This isn't a blind deathmatch. You have time to pay attention to who's dying and who's not. My $.04 cdn.
Promoting teamwork and smart play is the BEST idea.
kill board just makes people to go lonewolf and rambos...YEAH I HAVE THE BIGGEST KILL COUNT i OWNED..Teamwork...teaaaaaamwork...can i say more.. no scores
<!--QuoteBegin--Necro-+Jan 28 2003, 05:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Jan 28 2003, 05:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> fire thats different i was a skulk, they were siegeing our hive the team was holding off the enemy advances (marines) while i was taking the buildings. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> so you got lucky ? I dont understand your point.
How about it could be server-configured, with all scores hidden by default but with the admin able to set it up to show alien, marine, or all scores (or maybe just hidden in casual and all shown in tourney).
<!--QuoteBegin--Akiro+Jan 29 2003, 12:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akiro @ Jan 29 2003, 12:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <img src='http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~mrolek/nsnuke.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, first off clanners that aren't capable of figuring this "complex situation" out aren't going to do so great anyway.
2nd, there are these great things called server logs that are easily parseable.
3rd, if you are basing your entire judgement off kills, once again - your clan won't do so well.
4th, if you can't tell if someone is helping your team without looking at kill-count.... (see above)
I dunno... I have a fairly good idea of how well my clan performs as a marine team (Us3r couldn't hit the broad side of an Onos from 3 feet away, while Rico could pick off a skulk at 80 yards with a slingshot and a nickel).
Maybe I'm a bit ignorant of how the top clans handle recruiting, but I'd assume that any potential recruits would definitely be regular players on the server the clan frequents (even if they only start playing there when they first show interest in joining the clan, and if only so the clan can at least get to know the person), and also that this recruit would play with the members of the clan in a couple scrims (scrims don't count for much in the long run aside of bragging rights, so a loss is no big deal). If the guy wasn't a team player, or if the members of the clan didn't feel he was performing adequately, he wouldn't be allowed in. I don't know about you guys, but when I'm playing a game, and especially if it's a scrim, I have a fairly good idea of how my teammates are performing. So what if it isn't exact? I always hated CS '20 kill minimum' clans (not that I'm saying that's what would happen, but I fear that it might).
<!--QuoteBegin--Greedo386+Jan 29 2003, 01:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Greedo386 @ Jan 29 2003, 01:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I always hated CS '20 kill minimum' clans (not that I'm saying that's what would happen, but I fear that it might). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As much as I agree, CS doesn't have respawning so there's SOME justification there. However, in NS death is only temporary.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Jan 28 2003, 08:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Jan 28 2003, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Akiro+Jan 29 2003, 12:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Akiro @ Jan 29 2003, 12:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <img src='http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~mrolek/nsnuke.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, first off clanners that aren't capable of figuring this "complex situation" out aren't going to do so great anyway.
2nd, there are these great things called server logs that are easily parseable.
3rd, if you are basing your entire judgement off kills, once again - your clan won't do so well.
4th, if you can't tell if someone is helping your team without looking at kill-count.... (see above) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> who is this directed to ?
<!--QuoteBegin--Greedo386+Jan 28 2003, 08:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Greedo386 @ Jan 28 2003, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno... I have a fairly good idea of how well my clan performs as a marine team (Us3r couldn't hit the broad side of an Onos from 3 feet away, while Rico could pick off a skulk at 80 yards with a slingshot and a nickel).
Maybe I'm a bit ignorant of how the top clans handle recruiting, but I'd assume that any potential recruits would definitely be regular players on the server the clan frequents (even if they only start playing there when they first show interest in joining the clan, and if only so the clan can at least get to know the person), and also that this recruit would play with the members of the clan in a couple scrims (scrims don't count for much in the long run aside of bragging rights, so a loss is no big deal). If the guy wasn't a team player, or if the members of the clan didn't feel he was performing adequately, he wouldn't be allowed in. I don't know about you guys, but when I'm playing a game, and especially if it's a scrim, I have a fairly good idea of how my teammates are performing. So what if it isn't exact? I always hated CS '20 kill minimum' clans (not that I'm saying that's what would happen, but I fear that it might).
meh <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I have never seen a "20 kill minimum" cs clan last more than just a week, those people are newbs and are an embarassment to CS.
<!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+Jan 28 2003, 03:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ Jan 28 2003, 03:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> [/QUOTE] 2 kills but he can take out a bunch of towers? Ok Ok, lets say there is a wall of lame by horseshoe side of eclipse. Now 5 people go to attack the hive that is at Computer Core, and mister 2/20 goes to take out that wall of lame. Who is of more use, the people that attack the hive and could potentially end the game, or the guy who has no pressure on him to take out D chambers with his knife, should this guy be rewarded over the guys at the hive?
is he the better teamplayer? or are the better team players are the ones who can listen to the commander not be dead weight.
Who would you trust with expensive equipment, the people that can move and aim correctly, or someone that can press their "e" key and knife structures.
All circumstances based on the marine team wanting to win of course. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. Those who obey orders and work to help the team are more valuable then someone who just has more kills. If someone gets a kill or two while completing an objective, then all the better. But helping to further the team's goals is what's important, which is something that isn't shown in a simple kill count.
Comments
I'd like to chime in with my reply. Clan matches generally imply teamwork. While I may not play in a NS clan, I would assume my last 6 years of clan play would lead me to believe, most clans don't worry about personal score. I would also assume there would be a stat program out there that runs kills/deaths/structors deaths from the server logs. If there isn't one now, I'm sure one will show up in the next 4-5 months. So whether or not the tourny players know their score, they will in the end. They are there for the win, not personal glory. Following recent trends in game development, developers like to reduce the dependency 3rd party applications. While they do not want to stunt other developers, they would like to give the end player the total package. All scores in tourney play could be a welcomed change.
I like pub play and feel the current score board shouldn't be changed. This game has a very strong teamplay element, which should carry it through "look at my top score" players, but it doesn't. Reguardless of what choices are made, it never will. If anything should be changed, I would like to see the alien's deaths removed. One observation I have had from Team Fortress to TFC, is death count. In TF players couldn't see their kills, in TFC they did. In the long run, players tend to look out for themselves, rather than the team. It has already been brought up in this thread about TFC's 'my cap' problem. People become obsessed with their score. When TF had the teamcap, the team worked together.
Also to be noted; the personal cap of TFC was added to promote teamwork because of deathmatch problems. The game cycled and once again became a deathmatch game on pubs. So the choices made now may be the right choice, but may be needed to be changed a year or two down the road.
dh
He's not saying that players should just avoid fights or lay down and die. The problem is that seeing 2/20 doesn't necessarily tell you anything about a player's value to the TEAM. For all you know he may have been obeying orders, building structures and clearing out a whole bunch of towers. This helps the team a lot more than someone who runs around aimlessly looking for easy kills to boost their score because there are people who think that's what your value should be based upon. That's what CS and other fancy DM mods are for.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Building? Guarding?
Are not these things important?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but wouldn't guarding result in kills as long as you're guarding something important? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you think of a marien on base duty, while the rest of the team is securing resource points or hives, and kill that skulk who could've eaten your infantry portals, you see what I mean.
As for the resource point system, it's just that much more complicated than that... Time, for example, is also very important. It's not just about resource points.
The idea of giving the commander a score frightens me, unless you code a super-ai bot to judge the ommander's every decision and whether the outcome was due to the behaviour of the marine or the commander <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Flayra n CO: As much as it pains me I should remind you that if you decide to follow the forum goer's votes, you'll have to make a new poll of the two highest-scoring alternatives. It is very possible one of the three top alternatives would win if the choice was between no score whatsoever and some sort of score.
-- I do not agree with your opinions, but I would die for your right to voice them --
^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
/shakes head
Doom, doom, doom
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you'd get the points for killing a Skulk, and if the Aliens wanted to win, they would repeatedly attack the Marine base your guarding so you'd start racking up in points. Also you would probably be building stuff at the same time so you'd be getting a lot of points under the RP scoreboard. I'm not saying a Commander should get points for his performance, just that every RP spent on Building/Weapon/Health Pack etc. would be a point in the Commander's score. For example:
Commander puts down a TF and orders Marines A and B to build it
Marine C, covering Marines A and B, kills a Skulk with Carapace: Marine B gets 2 points
Marines A and B complete TF: Marines A and B gets 25 points divided between them
Commander gets 25 points for the completed TF
This way people are encouraged to build rather than rambo and what not. The RP's would be divided between the Marines building a structure so not everyone just wants to build and get 25, i.e. if 5 Marines built a 25 RP Phase Gate, they'd each get 5 points.
Don't change it (aliens only) [ 37 ] [13.65%]
Proposed v1.1 (alien only, also marines in tourny mode) [ 68 ] [25.09%]
Both team kills are always seen [ 56 ] [20.66%]
All scores should be hidden (apart from team score) [ 110 ] [40.59%]
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CURRENT TOTALS:
1) Marine scores hidden or only shown in tourney mode:
Yes: 56
No: 215
2) Alien scores hidden or only shown in tourney mode:
Yes: 178
No: 93
3) Hide ALL scores ALWAYS:
Yes: 110
No: 161
4) Hide ALL scores EXCEPT in tourney mode: (Same as hiding alien scores)
Yes: 178
No: 93
He's not saying that players should just avoid fights or lay down and die. The problem is that seeing 2/20 doesn't necessarily tell you anything about a player's value to the TEAM. For all you know he may have been obeying orders, building structures and clearing out a whole bunch of towers. This helps the team a lot more than someone who runs around aimlessly looking for easy kills to boost their score because there are people who think that's what your value should be based upon. That's what CS and other fancy DM mods are for.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
2 kills but he can take out a bunch of towers? Ok Ok, lets say there is a wall of lame by horseshoe side of eclipse. Now 5 people go to attack the hive that is at Computer Core, and mister 2/20 goes to take out that wall of lame. Who is of more use, the people that attack the hive and could potentially end the game, or the guy who has no pressure on him to take out D chambers with his knife, should this guy be rewarded over the guys at the hive?
is he the better teamplayer? or are the better team players are the ones who can listen to the commander not be dead weight.
Who would you trust with expensive equipment, the people that can move and aim correctly, or someone that can press their "e" key and knife structures.
All circumstances based on the marine team wanting to win of course. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Frags and stats change the way people play, and this isn't a rambo type game. Yes the better players will probably have higher scores, but scores are not how a good commander should decide who is the valuable players cause then its more important to kill an alien then it is to build a phase gate, so who wants to have to go build a phase gate at a hive, while the guy at base takes out some skulks giving him a higher score when the commander is going to give the guy with frags better stuff cause he thinks hes better. This game is about lots of things. A marine that can sneak to a spot and build a base without killing anything will not alarm the aliens that they are building there, yet, he may have to give up some frags to do that. should he take the frags, or not warn the aliens? If its a frag based game, then they will take the frag.
If you are getting frags, I think it should be like dod where you get score for doing stuff as well. (capturing flags give you score, and also killing baddies gives you score.) But either way, I think a score is a bad direction to go for pub servers. The satisfaction should be winning the game which is the big picture here.
yes being able to aim is good, but if you are more worried about your score then following orders, how are you going to win? (trust me, if there is a score, people will want to look like they are the best, and frag counts in this game can be misleading. I know a few players that can rambo by them self, and rack up a good K:D ratio, but if thats not what the commander wants them to be doing they are the ones hindering the team
Newer scoring system (Resources built/destroyed based) would be a good addition to this as well, rather than only kills counting.
Also, it would be nice if there were some other way of judging a player than just frags. NS is about more than frags. Like building stuff the comm wants you to, going to waypoints, not DYING, not DYING WITH EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT, etc. All much more important than how many aliens you have personally killed (although that is also useful info). I don't know if it is feasible to integrate this into scores though <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
i was a skulk, they were siegeing our hive
the team was holding off the enemy advances (marines) while i was taking the buildings.
Personally, I can keep track of who has the most frags, by looking up in the top left corner and watching who's dying and who's not. I get a "Oooh... that damn '-=Clan=-MarineGuy' has killed a few guys now! I better watch out for him" kind of thought. Scores aren't needed. Knowing who to watchout for is handy, but I can keep track of that myself. This isn't a blind deathmatch. You have time to pay attention to who's dying and who's not. My $.04 cdn.
Promoting teamwork and smart play is the BEST idea.
^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol once again DoomManiac wins.
i was a skulk, they were siegeing our hive
the team was holding off the enemy advances (marines) while i was taking the buildings. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
so you got lucky ? I dont understand your point.
Eater.
<span style='color:red'>There's no need to be a jerk. We never did anything to you.</span>
Well, first off clanners that aren't capable of figuring this "complex situation" out aren't going to do so great anyway.
2nd, there are these great things called server logs that are easily parseable.
3rd, if you are basing your entire judgement off kills, once again - your clan won't do so well.
4th, if you can't tell if someone is helping your team without looking at kill-count.... (see above)
clans dont need scores.
if the guy is killing lots of aliens, does what he's told and reports in, he's good.
if he's building oc's on res nodes. he sucks.
Maybe I'm a bit ignorant of how the top clans handle recruiting, but I'd assume that any potential recruits would definitely be regular players on the server the clan frequents (even if they only start playing there when they first show interest in joining the clan, and if only so the clan can at least get to know the person), and also that this recruit would play with the members of the clan in a couple scrims (scrims don't count for much in the long run aside of bragging rights, so a loss is no big deal). If the guy wasn't a team player, or if the members of the clan didn't feel he was performing adequately, he wouldn't be allowed in. I don't know about you guys, but when I'm playing a game, and especially if it's a scrim, I have a fairly good idea of how my teammates are performing. So what if it isn't exact? I always hated CS '20 kill minimum' clans (not that I'm saying that's what would happen, but I fear that it might).
meh
As much as I agree, CS doesn't have respawning so there's SOME justification there. However, in NS death is only temporary.
Well, first off clanners that aren't capable of figuring this "complex situation" out aren't going to do so great anyway.
2nd, there are these great things called server logs that are easily parseable.
3rd, if you are basing your entire judgement off kills, once again - your clan won't do so well.
4th, if you can't tell if someone is helping your team without looking at kill-count.... (see above) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
who is this directed to ?
Maybe I'm a bit ignorant of how the top clans handle recruiting, but I'd assume that any potential recruits would definitely be regular players on the server the clan frequents (even if they only start playing there when they first show interest in joining the clan, and if only so the clan can at least get to know the person), and also that this recruit would play with the members of the clan in a couple scrims (scrims don't count for much in the long run aside of bragging rights, so a loss is no big deal). If the guy wasn't a team player, or if the members of the clan didn't feel he was performing adequately, he wouldn't be allowed in. I don't know about you guys, but when I'm playing a game, and especially if it's a scrim, I have a fairly good idea of how my teammates are performing. So what if it isn't exact? I always hated CS '20 kill minimum' clans (not that I'm saying that's what would happen, but I fear that it might).
meh <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have never seen a "20 kill minimum" cs clan last more than just a week, those people are newbs and are an embarassment to CS.
2 kills but he can take out a bunch of towers? Ok Ok, lets say there is a wall of lame by horseshoe side of eclipse. Now 5 people go to attack the hive that is at Computer Core, and mister 2/20 goes to take out that wall of lame. Who is of more use, the people that attack the hive and could potentially end the game, or the guy who has no pressure on him to take out D chambers with his knife, should this guy be rewarded over the guys at the hive?
is he the better teamplayer? or are the better team players are the ones who can listen to the commander not be dead weight.
Who would you trust with expensive equipment, the people that can move and aim correctly, or someone that can press their "e" key and knife structures.
All circumstances based on the marine team wanting to win of course. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Those who obey orders and work to help the team are more valuable then someone who just has more kills. If someone gets a kill or two while completing an objective, then all the better. But helping to further the team's goals is what's important, which is something that isn't shown in a simple kill count.
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