Sensory revolves around containment. Good marines = no containment. If a SINGLE marine gets somewhere, and throws up a phase, then that area is practically impossible for the aliens until they get the 2nd hive. Even when they do get the 2nd hive, their fades are severely weakened, and can be taken out much more easily.
Sensory CAN win, but only against inept marines. Until I obs a match which shows otherwise, I will not believe that sensory is a decent tactic.
Movement chamber first can be good, yes, but unfortunately for aliens, MT largely negates it more than it does carapace.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a SINGLE marine gets somewhere, and throws up a phase, then that area is practically impossible for the aliens until they get the 2nd hive. Even when they do get the 2nd hive, their fades are severely weakened, and can be taken out much more easily<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me be the first to say that Candianmonkey has no idea what he's talking about. Since when have phase gates turned invincible to skulks? Skulks should be able to nail the lowly marine BEFORE he even gets a chance to build anyways. You have to understand that sensory first means a change in playing style, with it you must try and tag all the marines that come out of their base and take them out when they leave their base to prevent the phase rush. Doing this is the smart thing to do regardless of having sensory first.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a SINGLE marine gets somewhere, and throws up a phase, then that area is practically impossible for the aliens until they get the 2nd hive. Even when they do get the 2nd hive, their fades are severely weakened, and can be taken out much more easily.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure a marine can put up a phase gate and cause the aliens pain, in theory. In theory, the aliens could also do the walk and remained cloak trick into the marines base to the cc and destroy it, in theory. The point is theorycraft is bad and should not be used to prove a point, it just makes your side look weaker.
Erm if your using mines you'd be an idiot not to mine the phase gate.
What phase gates do give you is an easy way to rush lots of skulks directly into their base when you've JUST killed off their intire rushing team (who quite possibly don't have any turrets and only minimul base defence). Hence the reverse phasegate rush as a counter to the phasegate rush.
Anyway I personally think def first makes more sence on pubs. ONLY because newbs are in my experiance completly incapable of killing an AFK marine without carapice.
Newbs also tend to do completly idiotic things like:
Charge the enemy base even though they've done it 4 times already and died each time.
Charge a moving group of enemy's instead of running to the expected destination of the marines and ambushing them.
Move up right next to the marines and then cloak so that the distinctive 'shooosh' noise is made and the marines can eather guess at your position and shoot it. OR call the com for a scan.
A funny related anactode:
In a game where the aliens had 1 hive with sensory I was on 'weald every building to keep everything alive' duty. I jumped into viaduct and heard the distinctive 'shoowsh' noise of a lurk cloaking far above me. I sat and wealded the phase gate for abit pondering and was about to ask someone to come along with a pistol and shoot the lurk when a HMG/JP guy jumps in (I hadn't been paying much attention to what the com was doing with everyone else <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
'Get up on that bridge and shoot the lurk!'
Soo up he flys and a second later goes
'there's no sodding lurk up here blue'
'Its cloaked burn the area!'
*HMG fireing sounds*
Lurk killed by jetpack dudes HMG.
split second later
'YOU LAME HACKER!!!!!'
I mean c'mon just cos your invisible doesn't mean we can't work out where the hell your sitting. *sigh*
Anyway bascially I disagree with doing Sensory on public servers because the newbs style of play is not well suited to cloak. And to use carapice you do NOT have to 'learn' anything you just keep playing as normal, charging in and dieing but you have more time to bite them.
Sickening as it is untill newb levels are reduced to acceptable levels D-M-S is going to be THE build order to use on pubs.
*sigh* while I wish everyone on pubs would have a clue it rarely happens. Ho hum.
BlueGhost pretty much summarised some of my thoughts about public servers and SC. Personally I can't kill a marine without going into a real "fight" where the marine shoots at me while I try to bite him. If you can kill marines from behind without them shooting at you (especially if theres 2+ of em), cloaking might be good for you, but I can pretty much guarantee you are a minority. It certainly isn't "one shot to kill" show if you have carapace, but without you have real trouble in combat. Gorges are entirely different, although I think they are dogmeat when spotted if they don't have carapace. I haven't played any clanmatches, but I've noticed it's usually clanners who whine about DCs first and if I build an SC at the beginning, they go to readyroom (of course, accompanied with the usual egomanic "I'll ban ur **obscenity**!"-screams). Can't say they are wrong though.
Oh, and about that shotgun thing: I doubt the dev team reduced the cost from 20 to 17, because it was too good <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Dec 31 2002, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Dec 31 2002, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me be the first to say that Candianmonkey has no idea what he's talking about. Since when have phase gates turned invincible to skulks? Skulks should be able to nail the lowly marine BEFORE he even gets a chance to build anyways. You have to understand that sensory first means a change in playing style, with it you must try and tag all the marines that come out of their base and take them out when they leave their base to prevent the phase rush. Doing this is the smart thing to do regardless of having sensory first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except, that WILL NOT HAPPEN. To blockade the marines in their spawn, you would need to block 2-3 doorways. That is already half the skulks split up. The time 2-3 un-carapaced skulks kill 4-6 marines would just make me laugh with sadness. Every inch of terrain that hte marines gain opens up a new corridor to spread the aliens even more thing.
Then once the marines get where they are going, un-carapaced skulk rushes do not work. It is a proven fact. Myself alone can nail two skulks down with one lmg clip and then get another with my pistol. Killing a carapaced skulk takes a full lmg clip most of the time, and I might or might not get another with my pistol.
Sure skulks can get in ambush positions if the marines are tagged if they walk on the way to the hive, but when they move fast and with a purpose, they will only be able to get ambushed by skulks in the vicinity of their push. Then the commander notices the aliens are using cloak... Scanner sweeps start happening. Bye bye mr skulk.
Yeah sure I'm also able to take on skulks with just an lmg and pistol to. Ok, this one time 8 skulks were rushing me I managed to take out the first 5 with my lmg and pistol, but I had to chase down the last 3 with my knife after they ran away in fear. Soon after, I proceeded to make out with my super model girlfriend. Then, i was carried off to super model island where i made a 6 figure income by having sex alllllll day. Ok well maybe that didn't happen but i am allowed to exaggerate like Canadianmonkey, right?
In all seriousness, I never said that sensory would allow you to make an impenetrable shield that keeps marines in, it allows you to sneak up and live longer and yes, sneak attacks on more than one marine will get you more kills, especially if you attack with numbers. And so you're telling me that you NEVER EVER have been killed by an uncarapaced skulk? I think not.
And another friendly reminder, in 1.4 scanner sweeps will cost 3 instead of 1...so all of your sweeping will get a little costly, won't it now?
Sweeping 3-4 rooms will now cost 9-12 resources, up from 3-4. Still not all that bad if that 12 resources lets you take two hives and win the game...
I have been killed by uncarapaced skulks. Thing is, it is never due to them being sneaky, it is just numbers. Four skulks will get me usually. I might be able to get a knife kill, but 3/4 of the time... No. If I get somewhere and try to defend it against un-carapaced skulks, they had better come in large numbers or I am not leaving. Knowing the maps and vent locations prevents ambushes, and a louder-than-average sound volume lets you hear that clicking sound of skulk feet a mile away even while building.
Although canadianmonkey does not deserve a reply obviously we are all unworthy of his greatness and god-like ability to wipe out an entire team of skulks unless they use carapace. I'm not going to restate all my points again because i did them all in the last 4 posts. So im ending with sensory chamber first is a good idea, when used properly. I will not waste my time replying to the enormous amount of closeminded-ness that canadianmonkey has portrayed. I will however respond to those who are open minded about new tactics and wont respond with "If they dont have carapace i will kill all those skulks by the dozens!!!!11" like the monkey has done in his last few posts. Final thought: You will sound a lot more intelligent to consider other people's ideas, rather than immediatly label them as "heresy" to the DMS dogma.
Crisqo ya need to chill out there a little man <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Monkey has been on these fourms a LITTLE longer then you have and I can respect his oppinions. It also sounds like to me that you are the only closed minded one because of your constant bantering of "OMG SC are so ub4r"
I prefer DMS for these reasons:
1. Skulks can not take a good amount of fire with out Carp. You defend this point by saying cloaking allows you to close the range with marines without danger. Marines often travel in packs at the start of the game. Thus unless you have 2-3 cloaked skulks to take down that group of 3-4 marines even your proximity to them is going to be void because concentrated LMG fire + skulk with no arrmor upgrade = skulks droping FAST.
2. When marines get the arrmor upgrade your almighty 2 bite kill will drop to 3 bites. After one bite (assuming the bite landed) the marine should be turning on you and begining to fire. By the second bite he should have already been able to get a bead on you and you are taking hits. Before you get that third bite in you are dead. Carpice allows you to get that third bite in.
3. A decent skulk can hide with out the use of cloaking.
4. Scanner sweep, while expensive due to 1.04, DOES counter cloaking with EASE. The only way to counter carpice is to upgrade to a better weapon (HMG/Shotguns) or concentrate more fire on the one skulk (assuming the marines travel in groups).
5. Sensory Chambers, in my opinion, force you to make harsh decisions on your next chamber upgrade assuming you get that second hive up. You almost NEED adren for the lerk umbra and fades also benifit from more acid rockets with adren OR you can get regen which is benificial to fades/lerks in vents and carp which everyone loves <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
6. I believe that everyone can agree that for cloaking you MUST have 3 SC to make it effective. 3 SC = 30 res = a little more then a res tower or 30 res away from saving for that second hive. DC is the only chamber that allows you to have a majority of the benifits with just one chamber. ONE defence chamber gives the benifit of giving the skulks 30 arrmor AND a small increase to the arrmors defensive capabilitys WHILE also supplying healing for units and OCs. SC and MC are NOTHING if you don't have 3 of them, at least DC provide SOME benifit. (I stand corected, MC will allow you to travel back to the hive quickly incase of an emergency, but all SC do is give that annoying "The enemy..." msg)
7. Lets also be realistic, most of the people who play NS are noobies. The will hold far more benifit from DC and extended life then they would from SC and increased steath ablilitys. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Dec 31 2002, 09:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Dec 31 2002, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Although canadianmonkey does not deserve a reply obviously we are all unworthy of his greatness and god-like ability to wipe out an entire team of skulks unless they use carapace. I'm not going to restate all my points again because i did them all in the last 4 posts. So im ending with sensory chamber first is a good idea, when used properly. I will not waste my time replying to the enormous amount of closeminded-ness that canadianmonkey has portrayed. I will however respond to those who are open minded about new tactics and wont respond with "If they dont have carapace i will kill all those skulks by the dozens!!!!11" like the monkey has done in his last few posts. Final thought: You will sound a lot more intelligent to consider other people's ideas, rather than immediatly label them as "heresy" to the DMS dogma.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why do people keep saying I am close-minded. Seriously now. I have played with each chamber, and all the combinations. Cloaking is just not all that uber you make it out to be. Carapace makes skulks far from unstoppable, but sure as hell better than non-carapaced skulks. Even if the aliens kill marines one for one, the marines are still going to get past the cloaked blockade. (1/2 the aliens or less versus the entire marine team...)
Then we go to the VERY early game, when no upgrades are availible to aliens... Marines have a hive by the time aliens get upgrades. That is if one or two marines run out right away. The last unnoccupied hive is the objective of both sides. Aliens can move in, cloak. Marines build siege outside the hive, and let the skulks stay inside. Or if the aliens hide in groups outside of the hive. Marines move in, kill a group maybe losing a marine or two, and move on to the hive. Scanner sweeps are not necessary, but help, and marines get inside the hive, where they are virtually invincible to the marines.
Sure you may have played with each chamber first, but in all of the posts you don't even mention the fact that there are more possibilites then the traditional defense first way. You can still be closed minded about issues even if you've tried them before. In all of your posts you immediately put defense and maybe movement as a possibility to start and don't even bother ( and sometimes blatantly shun) the way of going sensory first against a group of legitimate marines. That in my mind is closedmindedness. And plus, even if you have been in these forums a long time (1 1/2 months longer than I have, oooo!) you have influence on any new players that read these forums, and immediately get brainwashed into your ways of "one way is always right and that's the way it is" thinking. Maybe some people are tired of having to go DMS every single game that they play and want a little variety in tactics and still get a win. And enough with the theory craft please, you always assume that the marines are at LEAST average (and if you're one, they're GOD LIKE) and the aliens are sucky players that can't take out more than one marines, which the sensory tactic is directed to - intermediate player, not the noob.
I agree with canadianmonk3y simply from how he makes his points. But I feel movement is fairly decent for a first upgrade, and almost equally as benificial to a skulk as DC.
As far as upgrades go period, it takes 2 chambers to really make a difference in any event no matter the upgrade, and 3 to get its full effect..
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 1 2003, 12:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 1 2003, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure you may have played with each chamber first, but in all of the posts you don't even mention the fact that there are more possibilites then the traditional defense first way. You can still be closed minded about issues even if you've tried them before. In all of your posts you immediately put defense and maybe movement as a possibility to start and don't even bother ( and sometimes blatantly shun) the way of going sensory first against a group of legitimate marines. That in my mind is closedmindedness. And plus, even if you have been in these forums a long time (1 1/2 months longer than I have, oooo!) you have influence on any new players that read these forums, and immediately get brainwashed into your ways of "one way is always right and that's the way it is" thinking. Maybe some people are tired of having to go DMS every single game that they play and want a little variety in tactics and still get a win. And enough with the theory craft please, you always assume that the marines are at LEAST average (and if you're one, they're GOD LIKE) and the aliens are sucky players that can't take out more than one marines, which the sensory tactic is directed to - intermediate player, not the noob.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have I mentioned post count ever? No. Elitism is BAD. I do not support it.
However, if you think finding out that something is bad and then not using it is close mindedness, think again. If anything it is trial and error.
I do not know a single regular on the server that I play on who cannot kill uncarapaced skulks easily. It is just such a joke that it is not even funny. Fine, if you want to talk about how sensory could be good on servers with sub-par players, go ahead, but if you want to talk about how the game is played by good players then do not say sensory is good. It is not.
God, this chamber order argument is like cancer. You never can kill this topic, can you?
*sigh*
Well that's that out the way, here's my two cents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
First of all, this business about celerity and carapace not helping skulks because "any decent marine can aim" is a load of bollocks. Absolute bollocks. It's bollocks because while a decent marine can aim, a good skulk makes it much, much harder for himself to be hit. Most of the time when I attack someone with a melee weapon (in other games as well) if I die, it's MY fault, not the skill of the other guy. It's some mistake I made; they were skilled enough to make it harder for me, but it was my screw up that got me killed. I have met exactly TWO people who could kill me outright, actually stop me in my tracks despite me pulling out my best. And one of those isn't even in Natural Selection, he plays Firearms.
What I'm trying to say is that if marines are hitting you, chances are it's because you're not good enough, not because "they can aim". No, let me rephrase that: even though they can aim, you can always improve to the point where you cannot be hit.
Having said that, carapace and celerity makes a HUGE difference. Carapace at least doubles your lifespan, meaning you are allowed more mistakes and you've got better combat endurance before you're killed. Celerity makes it FAR harder to hit you if you do your job right. Either are suitable for a skulk.
Cloaking..... urgh. Conventional wisdom is 100% correct this time, sorry. Cloaking is USELESS for skulks:
Firstly, a skulk is at their most dangerous when it is a blur of flesh and claws. You shouldn't be able to see a skulk because he's moving so fast and because you're dead so fast, not because he's invisible.
Secondly, it has been proven time and time again that you CANNOT contain a marine team using cloaked skulks waiting in ambush. A lot of this is because if skulks use cloaking, they must fight defensively (yes, an ambush is a defensive posture), and if you fight defensively you WILL lose. The key to victory is aggressive tactics (such as rushing) rather than defensive tactics such as ambushes.
Thirdly, Fades need carapace and a movement chamber upgrade. Without carapace, Fades are a walking waste of resources which will soon be rendered useless, and without the movement chamber upgrade of choice (depends on your play style) Fades are half the power they could be. In the midgame, which will often drag out a LONG time, in which you fight for the third hive, struggle to contain marine expansion and prevent ST attacks unless you have the most powerful Fades you can get you WILL lose against a skilled commander. Cloaking is going to do sweet bugger all for your Fades when they're trying to take out a vital outpost and can't because they don't have the armour to survive the LA\HMGs guarding it.
Fourth: This is more an argument for why defense chambers must be one of the first two, but it is impossible to adequately contain marine expansion using walls of lame that are not backed up by defense chambers! When you're grappling for territory you NEED these outposts to delay your enemies long enough for the Kharaa to get to them and remove the threat - without defense chambers the time these outposts can hold out is far less - not to mention the fact that they cannot recover from attacks by themselves! They can therefore be destroyed purely by attrition. Not good.
Fifth: As with the above, Fades have to have defense chambers to boost regening in between skirmishes. Fades are expensive and powerful, and you need as many in the field - at full health - as you can, at any one time. Def chambers in forward locations means that Fades don't have to fall back to the hive to regen, they can regen faster, it's less likely that they'll be cut off from reaching healing after returning from a skirmish...
I think that's about enough <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You say that sensory is great for containing marines inside the base to prevent them expanding, but most of the time thats not going to work, I'll explain why:
First of all, like any chamber upgrade, you're not going to get it as soon as the game starts, the gorges priority is to get resources so will be building resource towers instead.
During this time, if you're up against good marines, they will be making their way to the hives at this time. In 9/10 games, marines will have an empty hive secure at this stage.
The Kharaa may well have 2 hives at this stage, and the marines will be making their way towards them now. The sensory chambers will most likely be ready and you will have your cloaking.
The marines have their marine hold and a hive, with a phase gate between them. There is no way in hell you can contain marines in two positions by camping outside these places without weakening the numbers guarding your 2 hives.
You may take out the odd few marines with cloaking, but the chances are that a group of good marines will be able to get to one of your hives. If the hive isn't built yet, you have no chance of stopping them with an upgrade that doesn't actually work while you are moving.
Even if you do manage to stop them entering the hive, they can build turrets and a phase gate outside, possibly even a seige. Theres no way of chewing up marine structures fast enough without carapace to reclaim lost hives.
Ok, maybe I'm the only one that realizes that the whole point of crisqo's argument (and a few select others) is not to prove once and for all that sensory is better than anything or put down defense or movement, he's simply trying to prove the fact that legit competitive games CAN be won in more ways than one, and it's just ridicilous to prove otherwise. Obviosly, ANY argument a person makes can be put down by exploiting flaws in every plan...no certain strategy is perfect...and people (which we have established are stupid) are way to opinionated and self serving to give in and realize that other people's views may also work too. You all (Error and Monkey in particular) should realize that what works for you simply works for you and it's sooo GREAT that you post here everytime about what you think is right, but then to shun the other immediately simply because it doesn't fit your logic or skills isn't so great. And for Soul Scorpion...please...save us the pain of your CLOSED MINDEDNESS (yes i used that term again) about cloaking, calling it "useless"... And before all of you respond again in anger with your "wit" and criticisms and selected quotes from my post...please try a little thing called reasoning...
Torgo, incase you don't know already, this forum is called Kharaa Strategy, the emphasis is on the word.. <b>STRATEGY</b>; thats what we're here to do, discuss <b>STRATEGIES</b>.
Lets make it even clearer, someone posts a strategy and its put to the test by other forum members, who might spot a fatal weakness in the strategy or add further advice to it, either way, its a place to discuss <b>STRATEGY</b>.
I have no problem when someone makes a post to encourage others to try a different strategy, but if they don't want criticism then they should perhaps post it in the general discussion. At the moment alot of the stuff in this thread is off-topic and shouldn't be in this forum at all, if you like to accuse people of being narrow minded then maybe you should post in the Lamers Forum.
<!--QuoteBegin--Torgo27+Jan 3 2003, 10:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Torgo27 @ Jan 3 2003, 10:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok, maybe I'm the only one that realizes that the whole point of crisqo's argument (and a few select others) is not to prove once and for all that sensory is better than anything or put down defense or movement, he's simply trying to prove the fact that legit competitive games CAN be won in more ways than one, and it's just ridicilous to prove otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well yes. Technically, you could sugget playing skulks only all the way through just to see how it works as a strategy. How about only gorges? How about no offense chambers until the third hive?
Yes, you can win with any strategy if it's good enough. No, sensory first is not as good as other strategies and no, it's not good enough to replace def\move\sens because it's fatally flawed in a number of places.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
God, I weep for the future if this is the 'quality' of all the Kharaa players...
Canadianmonk3y.....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Elitism is BAD. I do not support it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, you've been fairly close to the mark with saying that every other upgrade apart from Cara is 'garbage'. I get flamed to DEATH on servers where I try to get Sensory early, but I quite enjoy telling them all to Shhh (nicely of course) when I have the same count as the entire team combined. And I'm Fading, without (DUM DUM DEEER!) ADRENALINE!? Can it be? No. No Fade possibly can.
This isn't just to Canadianmonk3y, but if you can't try other things, that doesn't mean they don't work. I happily eat entire squads of marines using other upgrades, yes, I've tried the standard D>M>S, yes, I've used Cara/Adren/SoF, but I enjoy the variety, and I enjoy using those other methods. You don't HAVE to do it the same way EVERY game.
But please don't be so self congratulatory to say 'Celerity is useless, because I can hit you anyway'... Celerity, attached to the right players... (and a lot of fun on a Gorge, healing spray kills! Wheee!) is EVIL.
Shockwave...your post brought a tear to my eye...that was so beautiful and ever so true! I couldn't have said it better myself, and I'm more optimistic now knowing that there are actually some people here with common sense and willingness to try something new. But as you can see here, they'll all probably respond with more posts that don't deal with what you said and somehow prove that once again their way of doing things is the best, accompanied by some colorful insults that insult your mother, your sexual preferences, or EVEN infer to you as a "lamer". (!)
my faith in humanity has once again been restored... yay. The only point to this post is that we need more enlightened "sensory first" people posting here...its getting cold and lonely all 2 of us.
If marines get a phase gate up near one of your hives early in the game, Carapace is the only ability that will consistently get it down. The damage absorobtion combined with the extra armor means that marines have to use twice as many buillets to kill you on average (yes this includes great marines) hence having to reload more hence being more vunerable.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulks take 9 LMG bullets to kill; 19 if they have level 3 carapace <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that is true, then a great marine can kill 5 , yes 5 un-carapaced skulks in 1 clip. Even if he hit with every shot, he would only be able to kill 2 carapaced skulks, so in this worst case scenario, carapace has saved 3 skulks lives given a rush of 5 skulks. Now consider the only above average or average marine, probably only 1 skulk would go down, leaving the other 4 to move onto the next target.
Multiply this up into a group of 3 marines, in one clip 15 un-carapaced skulks could feasibly go down! compared to only 6 carapaced skulks. I think we begin to see the importance of carapace here.
Sensorys are worthless anyone who knows the game knows this.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sensorys are worthless anyone who knows the game knows this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if the Carapace & Adrenalin bridgade didn't keep uttering random flame incentives like this, they wouldn't happen? Not rising to it, but try to learn, I personally got sick of the "tactics" (i.e same exact process every game) that Starcraft claimed to have long ago. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jan 3 2003, 07:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 3 2003, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This isn't just to Canadianmonk3y, but if you can't try other things, that doesn't mean they don't work. I happily eat entire squads of marines using other upgrades, yes, I've tried the standard D>M>S, yes, I've used Cara/Adren/SoF, but I enjoy the variety, and I enjoy using those other methods. You don't HAVE to do it the same way EVERY game.
But please don't be so self congratulatory to say 'Celerity is useless, because I can hit you anyway'... Celerity, attached to the right players... (and a lot of fun on a Gorge, healing spray kills! Wheee!) is EVIL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, other upgrades can be fun. I agree, but we are talking in the strategy section of the forums. An upgrade sure as hell might be fun (cloaking and others), but they just do not cut it when people are playing the game competitively.
For people who say that twice the damage capacity is not that amazing:
Ok, even if a marine has good aim, the lmg spread is such that most of the bullets will miss, especially in the first second or two of shooting when the skulk is further away. It is possible to kill two un-carapaced skulks with one lmg clip, but killing two is a whole different story. That is why carapace is good, as the damage absorbancy usually crosses the damage threshold that the marines can put out. If the marines had an enlarged clip, then the effectiveness of carapace would be weakened hugely. Right now it is tweaked for marines who have a 50 round clip, and the skulk has a fairly even chance to kill a marine provided they ambush or rush out of an overhead vent.
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jan 4 2003, 04:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 4 2003, 04:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sensorys are worthless anyone who knows the game knows this. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe if the Carapace & Adrenalin bridgade didn't keep uttering random flame incentives like this, they wouldn't happen? Not rising to it, but try to learn, I personally got sick of the "tactics" (i.e same exact process every game) that Starcraft claimed to have long ago. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *sigh*
Please stop defending sensory by saying "try something new" "you guys use the same upgrades all the time, it's so sad" and "be a little open minded for a change". I'd like to see some actual examples in which sensory chamber based tactics outperform movement or defense chamber tactics, please. You could start by refuting points in my earlier post. And no, I'm not flamebaiting. If you've got a way of making sensory first work just as effectively, I'd genuinely like to hear it. But please provide more examples than the ridiculous "contain them in their base" strategy (which can be performed more effectively with carapace anyway <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Im not saying sensory is not fun when playing vs newbs, but this is Kharaa strategy in the Organized play section. Sensory does not cut it vs an organised marine team.
I love Sensory chambers, especially ones built near important highways on a map to provide intelligence, but IMO, going Sensory first just doesn't have the same early game advantages as Defense (carapace) or Movement (Silence, Celerity)
Cloaking? Not aggressive enough when you're trying to secure RTs and all...good mainly for the Gorge Scent of Fear? In the early game it seems that an enemy is either dead or alive...and there are alot more skulks around providing Parasites to track enemies anyway Enhanced Hive Sight? I would say that EHS is better for Lerks/Fades because being able to spot an enemy in the dark makes it easier to fire upon them. having said this, it's not too useful for Skulks.
Say a Marine is in the shadows and you have EHS to spot him, well if you had Carapace it'd be easier to survive the ambush and hopefully kill him, right?
To all you Sensory-First proponents, please tell me this: How do the sensory upgrades make for an easier early game?
Comments
Good marines = no containment.
If a SINGLE marine gets somewhere, and throws up a phase, then that area is practically impossible for the aliens until they get the 2nd hive. Even when they do get the 2nd hive, their fades are severely weakened, and can be taken out much more easily.
Sensory CAN win, but only against inept marines. Until I obs a match which shows otherwise, I will not believe that sensory is a decent tactic.
Movement chamber first can be good, yes, but unfortunately for aliens, MT largely negates it more than it does carapace.
Let me be the first to say that Candianmonkey has no idea what he's talking about. Since when have phase gates turned invincible to skulks? Skulks should be able to nail the lowly marine BEFORE he even gets a chance to build anyways.
You have to understand that sensory first means a change in playing style, with it you must try and tag all the marines that come out of their base and take them out when they leave their base to prevent the phase rush. Doing this is the smart thing to do regardless of having sensory first.
Sure a marine can put up a phase gate and cause the aliens pain, in theory. In theory, the aliens could also do the walk and remained cloak trick into the marines base to the cc and destroy it, in theory. The point is theorycraft is bad and should not be used to prove a point, it just makes your side look weaker.
Phase Gates are just a new way to give Aliens a way into your spawn, and behind the cover of Mines if you put them to keep them out
What phase gates do give you is an easy way to rush lots of skulks directly into their base when you've JUST killed off their intire rushing team (who quite possibly don't have any turrets and only minimul base defence). Hence the reverse phasegate rush as a counter to the phasegate rush.
Anyway I personally think def first makes more sence on pubs. ONLY because newbs are in my experiance completly incapable of killing an AFK marine without carapice.
Newbs also tend to do completly idiotic things like:
Charge the enemy base even though they've done it 4 times already and died each time.
Charge a moving group of enemy's instead of running to the expected destination of the marines and ambushing them.
Move up right next to the marines and then cloak so that the distinctive 'shooosh' noise is made and the marines can eather guess at your position and shoot it. OR call the com for a scan.
A funny related anactode:
In a game where the aliens had 1 hive with sensory I was on 'weald every building to keep everything alive' duty. I jumped into viaduct and heard the distinctive 'shoowsh' noise of a lurk cloaking far above me.
I sat and wealded the phase gate for abit pondering and was about to ask someone to come along with a pistol and shoot the lurk when a HMG/JP guy jumps in (I hadn't been paying much attention to what the com was doing with everyone else <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
'Get up on that bridge and shoot the lurk!'
Soo up he flys and a second later goes
'there's no sodding lurk up here blue'
'Its cloaked burn the area!'
*HMG fireing sounds*
Lurk killed by jetpack dudes HMG.
split second later
'YOU LAME HACKER!!!!!'
I mean c'mon just cos your invisible doesn't mean we can't work out where the hell your sitting. *sigh*
Anyway bascially I disagree with doing Sensory on public servers because the newbs style of play is not well suited to cloak. And to use carapice you do NOT have to 'learn' anything you just keep playing as normal, charging in and dieing but you have more time to bite them.
Sickening as it is untill newb levels are reduced to acceptable levels D-M-S is going to be THE build order to use on pubs.
*sigh* while I wish everyone on pubs would have a clue it rarely happens. Ho hum.
BlueGhost
Oh, and about that shotgun thing: I doubt the dev team reduced the cost from 20 to 17, because it was too good <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You have to understand that sensory first means a change in playing style, with it you must try and tag all the marines that come out of their base and take them out when they leave their base to prevent the phase rush. Doing this is the smart thing to do regardless of having sensory first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except, that WILL NOT HAPPEN. To blockade the marines in their spawn, you would need to block 2-3 doorways. That is already half the skulks split up. The time 2-3 un-carapaced skulks kill 4-6 marines would just make me laugh with sadness. Every inch of terrain that hte marines gain opens up a new corridor to spread the aliens even more thing.
Then once the marines get where they are going, un-carapaced skulk rushes do not work. It is a proven fact. Myself alone can nail two skulks down with one lmg clip and then get another with my pistol. Killing a carapaced skulk takes a full lmg clip most of the time, and I might or might not get another with my pistol.
Sure skulks can get in ambush positions if the marines are tagged if they walk on the way to the hive, but when they move fast and with a purpose, they will only be able to get ambushed by skulks in the vicinity of their push. Then the commander notices the aliens are using cloak... Scanner sweeps start happening. Bye bye mr skulk.
In all seriousness, I never said that sensory would allow you to make an impenetrable shield that keeps marines in, it allows you to sneak up and live longer and yes, sneak attacks on more than one marine will get you more kills, especially if you attack with numbers. And so you're telling me that you NEVER EVER have been killed by an uncarapaced skulk? I think not.
And another friendly reminder, in 1.4 scanner sweeps will cost 3 instead of 1...so all of your sweeping will get a little costly, won't it now?
I have been killed by uncarapaced skulks.
Thing is, it is never due to them being sneaky, it is just numbers.
Four skulks will get me usually. I might be able to get a knife kill, but 3/4 of the time... No.
If I get somewhere and try to defend it against un-carapaced skulks, they had better come in large numbers or I am not leaving.
Knowing the maps and vent locations prevents ambushes, and a louder-than-average sound volume lets you hear that clicking sound of skulk feet a mile away even while building.
Monkey has been on these fourms a LITTLE longer then you have and I can respect his oppinions.
It also sounds like to me that you are the only closed minded one because of your constant bantering of "OMG SC are so ub4r"
I prefer DMS for these reasons:
1. Skulks can not take a good amount of fire with out Carp. You defend this point by saying cloaking allows you to close the range with marines without danger. Marines often travel in packs at the start of the game. Thus unless you have 2-3 cloaked skulks to take down that group of 3-4 marines even your proximity to them is going to be void because concentrated LMG fire + skulk with no arrmor upgrade = skulks droping FAST.
2. When marines get the arrmor upgrade your almighty 2 bite kill will drop to 3 bites. After one bite (assuming the bite landed) the marine should be turning on you and begining to fire. By the second bite he should have already been able to get a bead on you and you are taking hits. Before you get that third bite in you are dead. Carpice allows you to get that third bite in.
3. A decent skulk can hide with out the use of cloaking.
4. Scanner sweep, while expensive due to 1.04, DOES counter cloaking with EASE. The only way to counter carpice is to upgrade to a better weapon (HMG/Shotguns) or concentrate more fire on the one skulk (assuming the marines travel in groups).
5. Sensory Chambers, in my opinion, force you to make harsh decisions on your next chamber upgrade assuming you get that second hive up. You almost NEED adren for the lerk umbra and fades also benifit from more acid rockets with adren OR you can get regen which is benificial to fades/lerks in vents and carp which everyone loves <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
6. I believe that everyone can agree that for cloaking you MUST have 3 SC to make it effective. 3 SC = 30 res = a little more then a res tower or 30 res away from saving for that second hive. DC is the only chamber that allows you to have a majority of the benifits with just one chamber. ONE defence chamber gives the benifit of giving the skulks 30 arrmor AND a small increase to the arrmors defensive capabilitys WHILE also supplying healing for units and OCs. SC and MC are NOTHING if you don't have 3 of them, at least DC provide SOME benifit. (I stand corected, MC will allow you to travel back to the hive quickly incase of an emergency, but all SC do is give that annoying "The enemy..." msg)
7. Lets also be realistic, most of the people who play NS are noobies. The will hold far more benifit from DC and extended life then they would from SC and increased steath ablilitys. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
~da ph34k
Why do people keep saying I am close-minded.
Seriously now.
I have played with each chamber, and all the combinations.
Cloaking is just not all that uber you make it out to be.
Carapace makes skulks far from unstoppable, but sure as hell better than non-carapaced skulks.
Even if the aliens kill marines one for one, the marines are still going to get past the cloaked blockade. (1/2 the aliens or less versus the entire marine team...)
Then we go to the VERY early game, when no upgrades are availible to aliens...
Marines have a hive by the time aliens get upgrades. That is if one or two marines run out right away.
The last unnoccupied hive is the objective of both sides. Aliens can move in, cloak. Marines build siege outside the hive, and let the skulks stay inside. Or if the aliens hide in groups outside of the hive. Marines move in, kill a group maybe losing a marine or two, and move on to the hive. Scanner sweeps are not necessary, but help, and marines get inside the hive, where they are virtually invincible to the marines.
As far as upgrades go period, it takes 2 chambers to really make a difference in any event no matter the upgrade, and 3 to get its full effect..
Have I mentioned post count ever?
No.
Elitism is BAD. I do not support it.
However, if you think finding out that something is bad and then not using it is close mindedness, think again. If anything it is trial and error.
I do not know a single regular on the server that I play on who cannot kill uncarapaced skulks easily. It is just such a joke that it is not even funny. Fine, if you want to talk about how sensory could be good on servers with sub-par players, go ahead, but if you want to talk about how the game is played by good players then do not say sensory is good. It is not.
*sigh*
Well that's that out the way, here's my two cents <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
First of all, this business about celerity and carapace not helping skulks because "any decent marine can aim" is a load of bollocks. Absolute bollocks. It's bollocks because while a decent marine can aim, a good skulk makes it much, much harder for himself to be hit. Most of the time when I attack someone with a melee weapon (in other games as well) if I die, it's MY fault, not the skill of the other guy. It's some mistake I made; they were skilled enough to make it harder for me, but it was my screw up that got me killed. I have met exactly TWO people who could kill me outright, actually stop me in my tracks despite me pulling out my best. And one of those isn't even in Natural Selection, he plays Firearms.
What I'm trying to say is that if marines are hitting you, chances are it's because you're not good enough, not because "they can aim". No, let me rephrase that: even though they can aim, you can always improve to the point where you cannot be hit.
Having said that, carapace and celerity makes a HUGE difference. Carapace at least doubles your lifespan, meaning you are allowed more mistakes and you've got better combat endurance before you're killed. Celerity makes it FAR harder to hit you if you do your job right. Either are suitable for a skulk.
Cloaking..... urgh. Conventional wisdom is 100% correct this time, sorry. Cloaking is USELESS for skulks:
Firstly, a skulk is at their most dangerous when it is a blur of flesh and claws. You shouldn't be able to see a skulk because he's moving so fast and because you're dead so fast, not because he's invisible.
Secondly, it has been proven time and time again that you CANNOT contain a marine team using cloaked skulks waiting in ambush. A lot of this is because if skulks use cloaking, they must fight defensively (yes, an ambush is a defensive posture), and if you fight defensively you WILL lose. The key to victory is aggressive tactics (such as rushing) rather than defensive tactics such as ambushes.
Thirdly, Fades need carapace and a movement chamber upgrade. Without carapace, Fades are a walking waste of resources which will soon be rendered useless, and without the movement chamber upgrade of choice (depends on your play style) Fades are half the power they could be. In the midgame, which will often drag out a LONG time, in which you fight for the third hive, struggle to contain marine expansion and prevent ST attacks unless you have the most powerful Fades you can get you WILL lose against a skilled commander. Cloaking is going to do sweet bugger all for your Fades when they're trying to take out a vital outpost and can't because they don't have the armour to survive the LA\HMGs guarding it.
Fourth: This is more an argument for why defense chambers must be one of the first two, but it is impossible to adequately contain marine expansion using walls of lame that are not backed up by defense chambers! When you're grappling for territory you NEED these outposts to delay your enemies long enough for the Kharaa to get to them and remove the threat - without defense chambers the time these outposts can hold out is far less - not to mention the fact that they cannot recover from attacks by themselves! They can therefore be destroyed purely by attrition. Not good.
Fifth: As with the above, Fades have to have defense chambers to boost regening in between skirmishes. Fades are expensive and powerful, and you need as many in the field - at full health - as you can, at any one time. Def chambers in forward locations means that Fades don't have to fall back to the hive to regen, they can regen faster, it's less likely that they'll be cut off from reaching healing after returning from a skirmish...
I think that's about enough <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
First of all, like any chamber upgrade, you're not going to get it as soon as the game starts, the gorges priority is to get resources so will be building resource towers instead.
During this time, if you're up against good marines, they will be making their way to the hives at this time. In 9/10 games, marines will have an empty hive secure at this stage.
The Kharaa may well have 2 hives at this stage, and the marines will be making their way towards them now. The sensory chambers will most likely be ready and you will have your cloaking.
The marines have their marine hold and a hive, with a phase gate between them. There is no way in hell you can contain marines in two positions by camping outside these places without weakening the numbers guarding your 2 hives.
You may take out the odd few marines with cloaking, but the chances are that a group of good marines will be able to get to one of your hives. If the hive isn't built yet, you have no chance of stopping them with an upgrade that doesn't actually work while you are moving.
Even if you do manage to stop them entering the hive, they can build turrets and a phase gate outside, possibly even a seige. Theres no way of chewing up marine structures fast enough without carapace to reclaim lost hives.
And before all of you respond again in anger with your "wit" and criticisms and selected quotes from my post...please try a little thing called reasoning...
Lets make it even clearer, someone posts a strategy and its put to the test by other forum members, who might spot a fatal weakness in the strategy or add further advice to it, either way, its a place to discuss <b>STRATEGY</b>.
I have no problem when someone makes a post to encourage others to try a different strategy, but if they don't want criticism then they should perhaps post it in the general discussion. At the moment alot of the stuff in this thread is off-topic and shouldn't be in this forum at all, if you like to accuse people of being narrow minded then maybe you should post in the Lamers Forum.
Yours Condescendingly,
Well yes. Technically, you could sugget playing skulks only all the way through just to see how it works as a strategy. How about only gorges? How about no offense chambers until the third hive?
Yes, you can win with any strategy if it's good enough. No, sensory first is not as good as other strategies and no, it's not good enough to replace def\move\sens because it's fatally flawed in a number of places.
Canadianmonk3y.....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Elitism is BAD. I do not support it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude, you've been fairly close to the mark with saying that every other upgrade apart from Cara is 'garbage'. I get flamed to DEATH on servers where I try to get Sensory early, but I quite enjoy telling them all to Shhh (nicely of course) when I have the same count as the entire team combined. And I'm Fading, without (DUM DUM DEEER!) ADRENALINE!? Can it be? No. No Fade possibly can.
This isn't just to Canadianmonk3y, but if you can't try other things, that doesn't mean they don't work. I happily eat entire squads of marines using other upgrades, yes, I've tried the standard D>M>S, yes, I've used Cara/Adren/SoF, but I enjoy the variety, and I enjoy using those other methods. You don't HAVE to do it the same way EVERY game.
But please don't be so self congratulatory to say 'Celerity is useless, because I can hit you anyway'... Celerity, attached to the right players... (and a lot of fun on a Gorge, healing spray kills! Wheee!) is EVIL.
Amen!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Skulks take 9 LMG bullets to kill; 19 if they have level 3 carapace
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that is true, then a great marine can kill 5 , yes 5 un-carapaced skulks in 1 clip. Even if he hit with every shot, he would only be able to kill 2 carapaced skulks, so in this worst case scenario, carapace has saved 3 skulks lives given a rush of 5 skulks. Now consider the only above average or average marine, probably only 1 skulk would go down, leaving the other 4 to move onto the next target.
Multiply this up into a group of 3 marines, in one clip 15 un-carapaced skulks could feasibly go down! compared to only 6 carapaced skulks. I think we begin to see the importance of carapace here.
Sensorys are worthless anyone who knows the game knows this.
Maybe if the Carapace & Adrenalin bridgade didn't keep uttering random flame incentives like this, they wouldn't happen? Not rising to it, but try to learn, I personally got sick of the "tactics" (i.e same exact process every game) that Starcraft claimed to have long ago. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But please don't be so self congratulatory to say 'Celerity is useless, because I can hit you anyway'... Celerity, attached to the right players... (and a lot of fun on a Gorge, healing spray kills! Wheee!) is EVIL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, other upgrades can be fun.
I agree, but we are talking in the strategy section of the forums.
An upgrade sure as hell might be fun (cloaking and others), but they just do not cut it when people are playing the game competitively.
For people who say that twice the damage capacity is not that amazing:
Ok, even if a marine has good aim, the lmg spread is such that most of the bullets will miss, especially in the first second or two of shooting when the skulk is further away. It is possible to kill two un-carapaced skulks with one lmg clip, but killing two is a whole different story. That is why carapace is good, as the damage absorbancy usually crosses the damage threshold that the marines can put out. If the marines had an enlarged clip, then the effectiveness of carapace would be weakened hugely. Right now it is tweaked for marines who have a 50 round clip, and the skulk has a fairly even chance to kill a marine provided they ambush or rush out of an overhead vent.
Maybe if the Carapace & Adrenalin bridgade didn't keep uttering random flame incentives like this, they wouldn't happen? Not rising to it, but try to learn, I personally got sick of the "tactics" (i.e same exact process every game) that Starcraft claimed to have long ago. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*sigh*
Please stop defending sensory by saying "try something new" "you guys use the same upgrades all the time, it's so sad" and "be a little open minded for a change". I'd like to see some actual examples in which sensory chamber based tactics outperform movement or defense chamber tactics, please. You could start by refuting points in my earlier post. And no, I'm not flamebaiting. If you've got a way of making sensory first work just as effectively, I'd genuinely like to hear it. But please provide more examples than the ridiculous "contain them in their base" strategy (which can be performed more effectively with carapace anyway <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Cloaking? Not aggressive enough when you're trying to secure RTs and all...good mainly for the Gorge
Scent of Fear? In the early game it seems that an enemy is either dead or alive...and there are alot more skulks around providing Parasites to track enemies anyway
Enhanced Hive Sight? I would say that EHS is better for Lerks/Fades because being able to spot an enemy in the dark makes it easier to fire upon them. having said this, it's not too useful for Skulks.
Say a Marine is in the shadows and you have EHS to spot him, well if you had Carapace it'd be easier to survive the ambush and hopefully kill him, right?
To all you Sensory-First proponents, please tell me this: How do the sensory upgrades make for an easier early game?