Fellow Aliens
Itha
Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11587Members
Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11587Members
<div class="IPBDescription">This needs your attention</div> Every game starting with same chamber build order, defense, movement and sensory. Tired of it? This is our chance to put an end of it.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18002' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=18002</a>
Post here any other suggestions of preventing that happening any more and if you don't have any own suggestions comment others suggestions. This Topic must grow big so they will notice this problem and do somthing. Remember that suggestions must be easy to carry out and they may not affect too much for balance of game.
Thanks For Your Attention!
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18002' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=18002</a>
Post here any other suggestions of preventing that happening any more and if you don't have any own suggestions comment others suggestions. This Topic must grow big so they will notice this problem and do somthing. Remember that suggestions must be easy to carry out and they may not affect too much for balance of game.
Thanks For Your Attention!
Comments
That's for YOU. Thats YOUR playing style. MY playing style may make Celerity MUCH more useful than Carapace as an upgrade.
That's for YOU. Thats YOUR playing style. MY playing style may make Celerity MUCH more useful than Carapace as an upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And MY aim owns your celerity arse before you can get anywhere near be.
It is not a playing style, if a skulk cannot move faster than my aim can track, then does the extra speed help? No.
Silence is the only upgrade that can be useful. Everything else but carapace is garbage.
Also, are you trying to say you've never been killed by an unupgraded Skulk before?
Also, are you trying to say you've never been killed by an unupgraded Skulk before?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I have been killed, everyone gets killed.
However, I can cut them down with ease. Any marine with any decent aim can. They try to hide on some ceiling or some vent, I hear, turn shoot. Alien splatters.
Celerity has one use... Getting to the marines faster. Even if you hide in some place and try to ambush, your speed still does not help enough to keep you from becoming a greasy pool on the floor.
Running down halls is stupid with any skulk related strategy.
Making assumptions that I do that is just pointless.
Celerity.
Assuming you somehow got within a group of marines, you are not using celerity to it's full potential. You can get inside a group of marines with any upgrade. The trick is not dying inside that group of marines, which only CARAPACE lets you do.
To use celerity to it's full potential, you would have to run down long hallways at marines, which would just be stupid.
If you go for Defense and then Movement, well...we have all been there so no need discussing. Basically you'll have Carapace for your early skulking
If you go Movement first you will have Silence or Celerity for your skulks (Adrenaline isn't too useful, IMO, until Hive-2 for rockets and Umbras). These are both very powerful, but are they more important than Carapace during the early game?
Depending on your team, I would go Defense/Carapace for a bunch of rookies -or- Movement/Silence(or Celerity) for a more experienced team. It all comes down to preference
As for Sensory, it's not that it sucks, just that Defense and Movement are both needed very much (Movement especially at Hive-2)
Sensory, ummm, let me think, as a first chamber, its great for ummm...
-- EDIT --
In addition, please consider these other two facts:
Cloaking is only good in the EARLY stages of the game. Marines will have observatories in the latter parts of the round and by the time you have that third hive, you all just have to go onoo and run into the base and it’s over…
AND I have personally been able to hang on the ceiling and tag every single marine that has walked by in a round before because when you parasite, you don’t uncloak; all you have to do is hang somewhere that ISN’T close to a corner and parasite as soon as they leave. So you don’t even have to attack and they’re marked for death for you're cloaked skulk buddies to mop up any of the marines that leave the base.
Your cloaking strategy is based on the idea that you can hold marines in base until the 2nd hive is up?
That just doesn't happen with a decent marine team with a decent comm.
The marines WILL take a hive - you can bet on it, and they will place a phase gate/tfac/backup tfac/6+ turrets in it. [later upgrading 1 tfac to siege]
After that, they can form a large group, and literally walk into your second hive, with the commander pinging in front of the marines.
Generic Marine One: "Commander, i think they have a defense chamber up."
All knowing Commander: "Ah well in that case cancel all plans to take a hive!"
The point, once again, cause obviously you didn’t get it before, is that you use the cloaking to attack the marines with ambush tactics rather than a head on attack that will get you killed. It’s the Gorge’s responsibility to secure a 2nd hive WHILE you attack the marines with cloaking. Hey, you could even use cloaking to defend the hive while the gorge does his business. And then you said that the plan was to keep the marines in the base. If you’re good enough you will hold most of them in (or at least slow them down), and the rest you simply let your other skulk friends take care of. So once again, I dare any of you to find something wrong with actually trying something new. I know it may come to you as a new concept, but if you would actually open up to new ideas, you will see how effective something else can be.
And so a skulk sneaks behind using silence... so you have EYES BEHIND YOU HEAD! You freak!
"That just doesn't happen with a decent marine team with a decent comm."
And a decent skulk can beat a decent marine. Your point?
Okay, seriously guys. We all what Theorycraft is.
Not even counting the fact that you shoot yourself in the foot for the 2nd hive, even if you do get the jump on marines, you will still die.
Try playing on a server with decent marines.
Marines rush one hive before you can get any upgrades.
The fight over the second hive is completely based on marines vs upgraded skulks.
You can ambush a lone marine, or even a small group, but when the real numbers start rolling in, your no hitpoint arse does not cut it.
You cloak on the ceiling... You do not jump down right away, as they will still be in the "alert" stage of entering a room. You wait for them to run by a bit, and jump down. Marine hears you, and you are cut to ribbons. Ouch.
I have tried all chamber combinations, and I still think DMS is best.
Movement first can be a viable choice, but your gorges turn into walking "shoot me!" signs...
We're talking about early game situations, where the skulk's work is to keep the marines at bay or at least slow them down.
The main reason i build defence chambers as a gorge is to heal other buildinds (just as a good WoL has to look like *g*).
In the early game there are NO OCs or even complete WoLs (at least there should be none if you want to get the second hive quickly).
After you got the second hive it's time for DCs to build WoLs and healing Fades that do hit-and-run attacks on enemy outposts or the marine base.
Let's just see what a skulk in early game (one hive, 3 of Chamber X) can go to a marine or a troop of marines:
1.) Carapaced Skulk vs Rambo Marine:
At Lvl3 Carapace won't let the skulk live soooo much longer than if it has no carapace. it's only a few bullets more and the LMG has quite a good rate of fire.
In such a situation it's just a matter of aiming and reaction of the players.
2.) Skulk with Clearity vs lonely Marine:
the skulk is fast, wich makes him a little harder to hit for the marine.
the skulk can also approch the Marine faster so he takes less damage until he can hurt the marine than a skulk without clearity would do.
but remember while the marine has more problems to aim at a faster target, the faster skulk also may have some problems targetin the marine and not running around as if out of control (*sigh* seen that sooo many times...).
3.) Cloaked Skulk vs Little Marine on vacation:
The problem with the skluk in example 1 and 2 is that they MAY get spotted and eventually take some damage before being able to use their attacks.
A cloaked skulk can wait until the marines gets past him and attack FIRST wich i consider the best advantage a skulk can have ecspecially in early game.
<remembering>
I remember some match on bast where i was standing in a small hallway cloaked, a (noob ?) marine came across and stopped right before me. i saw him typing "damn lag, i'm stuck again" ...
Well, i helped him to get unstuck <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
</remembering>
4.) Skulk with Carapace vs a small troop of marines:
Marines mean many eyes wich means (should mean) the skulk may get spotted even if he's hanging on the cieling.
The Marine will start fiering and so will the other Marines (some Marines tend to fire just because another Marine did so.. even if they don't know the direction the enemy might be at...).
The small ammount of extra armor will not help the skulk in any way... he might get one unprepared marine but in many cases he will die before doing major damage to the squad.
5.) Fast and Furious Skulk vs lousy bunch of rotten Marines:
Same problem as above: if the Marines are prepared e.g. know the Mapand it's hiding spots the skulk has a small chance to get close enough to one marine to hurt him.
The fast skulk has about the same chances as the skulk with extra armor.
He might use the speed for hit and run attacks (also i don't think a skulk should retreat... he fights, he kills, he dies) or parasite marines and hide behind the corner before someon can spot him.
6.) invisible Skulk vs some happy Marines on their way to the next pub:
Well i'm not going to say that the Skulk has a better chance of surviving this situation than the other two skulks had, but as said above a skulk is not really supposed to survive such a situation, it's supposed to use this situation as effectifly as possible.
Again suprise is the key here and variety:
The skluk may choose to let the marines pass and mark them... never underestimate the advantages that a good intel may give you!
he may also choose to attack the marines when they a close enough or have just passed him.
The point is that the cloaked skulk does the first attack!
In point 4 and 5 at least one Marine usually will know what direction the enemy come from.. now a whole troop may need a short time to find that out... a short time that brings the skulk one or two bites more.
After all i think that a cloaked (LVL 3) Skulk has the best chances of at least killing one marine out of a small troop before being killed.
Also one should not underestimate the advantages of a good intel (parasites) and some kind of... hmm.. i'll just call it "fear-factor".
A Marine will be more cautious if he knows there may be a skulk EVERYWHERE, that he would be if he only checks the usual hiding spots he learned in a couple of games... this will slow him down... this will slow his team down... this will give the alien team an advantage.
by the time the marines get motion detection (wich still does not always work sometime for me in 1.03 <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> ) the aliens should have secured the second hive.
Even with motion tracking cloaking can be usefull, because in larger games a marine just cannot remember every spot he saw a blib disapearing... but we want to focus on early game anyway.
the biggest problem with seonsory being first chamber is the players that want to rush the marine base.
this tactic has become standard over almost every server i play on.
Starting with seonsory chambers will need a change of play style from the alien players... i hope some people will at least TRY this way.
-=HyPeR=-
You do realise that carapace (along with 20 more Armor) gives 60% damage reduction, right?
Also, if you're a skulk, you should absolutely no problem being sleathy without cloak. Unless a marine looks everywhere you shouldn't be found.. and if you are, that's where Carapace comes in. Motion tracking makes cloaking literaly useless for hit and runs.
You can take out guys with HMGs no matter if you have upgrades or not, thats not the point.
The point is, that if the marines start building outside your hive, theres no way you can stop them unless you have carapace.
If the marine team are any good, they will report to their Commander and say, 'Theyz got cloaking', and commander will say 'okay, me build and upgrade Motion Tracking'. The Commander will also think to themself, hmmm me thinks we'll build a seige with turrets outside their hive, then <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> = screwed.
On the otherhand, Kharaa have more chance with Defence or Movement as a first upgrade.
<b>Movement = Faster Skulks, Adrenalined Gorges to heal attacking skulks and the hive.</b>
<b>Defence = Carapaced Skulks (best offensive)</b>
What it all means is, less conjestion in the respawn queue = faster spawn times = better counter.
Anyways, some people (Hypergrip) actually see the point of trying something new. The POINT of cloaking is to delay the marines and PREVENT them from building outside the hive while the gorge does his thing. If your team actually tries to work together, the strategy WILL work. You do know that aliens can lose with defense right? Now, I'm not saying that this <i>always</i> guarantees a win (mainly because people immediately put it down and don't try it and condemn it to losing before it starts then blame it on cloaking) but it's a very helpful alternative to the way that virtually everybody thinks chambers should be built. I know for a fact that carapace has lost before and will continue to do so, but the majority of the time when I have gone cloak first and the team actually tries to win, it works out. And also, according to your plan, the marines will upgrade to get observatories early in the game when they realize we have cloaking. Also, you mention that with your "mysterious unlimited resources" you will then proceed to immediately upgrade to siege cannons and build a mass of turrets outside of our hive. Unless the gorge is slow, fat, and mentally retarded, he'll have plenty of time to secure a hive and put down any attempt to take it back before you have any chance to see marines building turrets and siege, which will be promptly taken out before they even have a chance to make it to their waypoints.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the marine team are any good, they will report to their Commander and say, 'Theyz got cloaking', and commander will say 'okay, me build and upgrade Motion Tracking'. The Commander will also think to themself, hmmm me thinks we'll build a seige with turrets outside their hive <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok first off the observatory now that costs 30 resources...thats a hefty sum if its not at the beggining of the game when you have 100. Now after you managed to squeek out 30 resources you have to pay an additional 45 for the motion tracking. 30 + 45 = 75 resources all coming from one building, the observatory. However thats not where your sound plan ends. You also go on to claim that you would then proceed to build some seige right outside of the aliens first/second hive. Despite the impossibility of the fact that if the skulks have been doing their job and tagged most of the marines that came out of the marine base, that everyone would notice the little congregation of yellow circles on the hud and go investigate what all the ruckus is about, this endeavor would also cost you many many resources... 25 for the normal factory, 25 for the advanced (50 for all the non math geniuses) then you also have to build the seige which costs another 25 that adds up to 75 + 75 = 150 resources. That was on the assumption you only build 1 seige turret and no regular turrets by it. It is a economical impracticallity to be able to amass that huge amount of resources and still effectivly win the game.
By the time you realize the skulks have cloaking, the marine base usually already has an armory one or two spawns and a turret factory and turrets or a phase gate. So, by the time someone said "Theyz got cloaking."
you would have to sit there with one or two resources nozzles and wait for the 150 or more (if you make more then 1 seige turret or just plain skulk eating turrets if they dont circle strafe.)
--Edit-- fixed a few typos
Make it so that kharaas can build all the three chambers at the very beginning. Ofcourse its up to gorges when they build these but smart gorges would build them all eventually. Now im a skulk and I start upgrading myself. First i choose carapace from def chamber, its lvl 1 carpace because we have only one hive but it helps a little. Next I choose celerity from movement, I want to be fast! And finally I choose invisibility from sensory chamber. Im 33% invis so it might help me a little.
What am I saying here? Make upgrades more effecient with more hives you got!
Defence chamber:
-Regeneration: 33% with one hive, 66% with 2 hives and 100% with 3 hives
-Carapace: same as above
-Redemption: smaller chances of escape with fewer hives
Movement chamber:
-Adrenaline: smaller adrenaline rate with fewer hives you have
-Celerity: faster with more hives you have
-Silence: more silent with more hives you have
Sensory chamber:
-Advanced hive sight: Marines glow more if you have 2 or three hives
-Scent of fear:
1 hive: you see wounded marines
2 hives: you see wounded marines and marines with broken armour
3 hives: you see all the marines in particular area around you
-Invisibilty: you are only 33% invisible with one hive and 66% invisible with 2 hives and 100% invisible with 3 hives
This would really make alien gameplay different and more innovative
By the way, currently sens is not a bad starting chamber, very much safer for gorges to wait resources when they are invisible. Or for skulks to parasite marines when they are invisible. Gorges can even build when they are invisible.
-----I made double post, one here and one to other topic-----
If a single stratagy is SO good that it's the only stratagy anybody useses and yet other stratagys CAN win.
(as the situation for ns currently is).
Then using one of the other stratagy's has the advantage that it will be un-expected. IF you're good enough at mind games to exploit that element of suprise it CAN be a more effective stratagy than the 'theoretical best' stratagy.
Of course IF you want to say 'no other stratagy works because the marines will always just counter with x' then please, stay out of discussions of tactics all together! Make yourself a thread saying 'these are the uber tactics! Anyone not using them has failed to account for the fact I'm GOD!'
Of course you could be a reasoned and reasonable person and say 'in my experiance this doesn't work' or 'because of counter x this stratagy is unlikley to work, marines will generally use counter x as a matter of course'.
But hey thats not nearly arrogant and ego trippish enough is it.
BlueGhost
edit> typo's *sigh*
I remember when people said "terrans cant beat protoss" until terrans learned how to do the mech strats back in 1.04 or 1.05.
The bottom line is, your first upgrade has to match the tactics of what not only your skulks can do, but what the marines are doing as well..
Sensory first is somewhat risky, def or movement is better, but if the marines open with tf or fast hmg's, sens is good for lvl3 cloaking, as carapace doesnt phase hmg's getting medpacks.. If you go fast sens, they can get MT early, but honestly, from a commanders point of view, fast MT will limit you to being able to hold 1 hive. Also the marines can maybe grab 2 node's, but most likely only 1 other node early. If your skulks can work in groups when using sensory, let the marines get in between the skulks, then go get them, that is dead marines who crapped their pants before they died..
As much as I agree with first upgrades other then cara, in pub servers, the noobs can barely run and jump let alone use tactics with a skulk..
Another good combo is def/sens for cloak and cara. That works wonders as fade. You dont need umbra when you can cloak, let them go by, blink and claw them all to death. That is no theorycraft, I have done that on a server vs. marines who got 2 hives, then lost one, but had a huge res advantage. The gorge accidentally made sens instead of movement, so we dealt with it. By the end of the map, every alien agreed that we lost nothing getting sens using blink+cloak+claws. We were able to take on HA/HMG's/GL's with that combo, and beat them back to get our 3rd hive, and win.
I would say sens and movement should not be the first 2 upgrades together, cara needs to be intertwined with one of those..
In short, try other things instead of doing the same strategy over and over and over again. Who knows? You might find something that works.
This also works for skulks early game before motion tracking. They can "pass through marines" and get behind them. Heck, let them pass then attack from behind. They thought nothing was there but you proved them wrong. Like you said, any marine with good aim can take out a decent skulk, and he can do just the same with your precious carapace too. But he can't shoot what he don't see, and that's your skulk hitting him from a place he thought was empty.
And this nonsense about no one hitting with shotgun is just stupid. Think before you speak. Shotgun shoots in a cone shaped area, you are MORE likely to hit even with general direction aiming. And a shotgun to s skulk close in CAN kill a skulk in 1 maybe 2 shots. Heck, I've had it done to me as skulk at full health.
Marine SGT, thank you for finally proving that it can be done. I'm sure that you, like myself, use defense first sometimes too, but as you have said, sensory first is just as good of a way to get the job done, if not better in some cases.
Pege, Who ever said that defense had to come first and couldn't be changed? Maybe this thread here will convince people that there are other ways to make you a more diverse player. "If this and that" can be changed so easily to "when they do this and that" if people would just give it a try.