Do we really need to make it harder for marines to push hives effectively given what everyone already knows about how typical pub experiences go? This would be a significant buff to alien defensive efficacy.
Promote the 'evolve last upgrade' feature rather than completely changing how spawn + evolution timings work during hive pushes.
In this situation the noob being spawn killed will be more upset than the noob being killed for being in the hive as a marine.
Yeah, of course. This is good. It's frustrating to be killed in your hive when you weren't expecting it. Don't let marines into your hive. Aliens have every advantage when it comes to mobility and sensory feedback / communication.
But I would strongly suggest to make gorge tunnels always do a constant sound. So they could always be heard from a certain (and quite large) distance.
I know I will get tons of hate for this comment, but the amount of alien wins only due to cheesy tunnels is atrocious and I don't think that should be the case. That souldn't be the aim of a fun and balanced game. And the winrate of the public experience shouldn't be balanced to 50% when a significative chunck of these percentatge are atrocious alien teams finding a way to cheese it out, while marines don't.
Or maybe the problem is that even though the game was supposed to be 6v6, now it is impossible to find a server with less than 11v11, but the health of every structure in the game is still the same, but with the double number of bile and teeth around
But I would strongly suggest to make gorge tunnels always do a constant sound. So they could always be heard from a certain (and quite large) distance.
I know I will get tons of hate for this comment, but the amount of alien wins only due to cheesy tunnels is atrocious and I don't think that should be the case. That souldn't be the aim of a fun and balanced game. And the winrate of the public experience shouldn't be balanced to 50% when a significative chunck of these percentatge are atrocious alien teams finding a way to cheese it out, while marines don't.
Or maybe the problem is that even though the game was supposed to be 6v6, now it is impossible to find a server with less than 11v11, but the health of every structure in the game is still the same, but with the double number of bile and teeth around
You might get some hate but it'd be unwarranted. There have been many lengthy discussions about tunnels on Discord. We should really have a new thread for discussing why the current tunnel dynamic is such a huge drag on the game.
HandschuhJoin Date: 2005-03-08Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
edited May 2018
In general I think the instantupgrades are the issue here.
I like the idea of the sound from a tunnel, but in general it would be useful, that this goes to another thread (and the issue how to not get fucking annoyed when you have tons of tunnels around) by this sound..
I agree that this planned change is an alien buff. I do not think it is enough of a buff to matter. Some see this as a significant buff while I see it as a very minor buff.
I am not sure how I might be convinced otherwise, or how I might change the minds of those who disagree with me. I think this may be in part a different perspective in that more competitive oriented players place more significance on even minor changes.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited May 2018
The less players in the game the more significant the change. If there's 8 v 8 and 4 people push a hive, the extra upgrades can can be enough to get a skulk to a safe place to heal while waiting for more spawns. And can be enough to create an extra bite on a marine. That extra bite could mean the marines lose a shooter they would have had. Losing a shooter means the odds of them losing the fight substantially increase. Having more skulks continue spawning with upgrades exacerbates this. It also reduces the neccesity of lame in hive defense.
This really isn't about a single marines ability to kill a single skulk in a hive. And it's really just a shift in meta which means the marines have even less options to close a game where they've built an advantage. It's going to add to average game lengths which are already far too high.
Aliens should have to get through the full straight-line distance a tunnel covers. It's a tunnel.. if it had to exist, which it didn't, it never should have been a phase gate.
I agree that this planned change is an alien buff. I do not think it is enough of a buff to matter. Some see this as a significant buff while I see it as a very minor buff.
I am not how I might be convinced otherwise, or how I might change the minds of those who disagree with me. I think this may be in part a different perspective in that more competitive oriented players place more significance on even minor changes.
It is not only about those things. It is again a change that will dumb down the game further, and that sux. Usually you have to choose between the risk of using time and the risk of evolving (because you are so easily killable) versus being instant on the map but without upgrades.
It is sad to see that game depth gets removed more and more, even though this change might be one of the smaller ones, it still has its impact and in the end it all adds up.
I like the idea of the sound from a tunnel, but in general it would be useful, that this goes to another thread (and the issue how to not get fucking annoyed when you have tons of tunnels around) by this sound..
And then suddenly you have aliens letting marines into their hives just so that they can have some closed tunnels silenced
When marines spawn in they spawn with ar and wep upgrades, this can make pushing a marine base harder for sure. It is only fair that aliens benefit from the same advantage imo. Marines come out of the ip ready to defend the base and aliens should spawn from the egg ready to defend.
When marines spawn in they spawn with ar and wep upgrades, this can make pushing a marine base harder for sure. It is only fair that aliens benefit from the same advantage imo. Marines come out of the ip ready to defend the base and aliens should spawn from the egg ready to defend.
This assumes that the teams are symmetric... which they are definitely not. Marines are sluggish compared to aliens, if their base is pushed/rushed while most of the players are on the field, it's hard to hold it. Aliens on the other hand can quickly respond to hive attacks.
GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited May 2018
First of all I would like to thank all of you for your constructive and very valuable feedback. I agree that spawning aliens with upgrades makes it a lot harder to successfully push a hive at lower player count environment. So far I just couldn't back up that opinion with the feedback and data I gathered via my balance mod. But due to this thread and the PTs feedback there will be a delay before the respawn-upgrades take effect. We are still trying to sort out how that delay should work, so keep your feedback coming. Generally nothing you see at our trello boards is set in stone and we are thankful for any feedback we receive.
The reason I prototyped this change was to test the water of allowing aliens to spawn with upgrades via a re-spawn evolve menu. Implementing such a re-spawn menu is a lot more work than a simple tweak to the spawn mechanism due to how the first person spectator works. So I wanted to make sure we have the balance aspect of such a change figured out before I start implementing a re-spawn menu.
However the feedback I got after pushing this change via my balance mod was rather surprising. Many players liked the change not for balance reasons but just for the convenience of not having to reapply/confirm their upgrades after every death. Many even started calling it a quality of life change.
So that's how the prototype intended to test the balance impact of a re-spawn evolve menu ended up as a feature.
Do we really need to make it harder for marines to push hives effectively given what everyone already knows about how typical pub experiences go? This would be a significant buff to alien defensive efficacy.
'Beg your pardon ?
Maybe the Marines should just be less... dumb. I'm sorry guys but it's reality. Rushing a hive, using hand grenade and GL spamming without friendly fire set to "on" isn't much of a difficulty to be honest. Maybe teaching them "teamwork" will actually work.
I mean, the marines are supposed to be organized & following orders, while aliens (as an opposite in style) are supposed to be scavengers and such. Today we are in a situation that is quite the opposite. Aliens have to be organized much more than the marines do. Number of gorge at start, lifeforms, etc.
I'm even advocating for Friendly fire on. So the marines will have to "behave". No bans for teamkill, just a quick kick after 2 to avoid peasants.
Even if there are many more scenarios than just the so called hive rush; with a consistent organization and teamwork a hive is down in a matter of seconds when it's done properly. whatever you spawn with all upgrades or not.
I'm even advocating for Friendly fire on. So the marines will have to "behave". No bans for teamkill, just a quick kick after 2 to avoid peasants.
This would be a horrible idea!!!
I remember how much of a nightmare it could be to play CoD back in the day when 3 tk's = kick. It was WAAAAAAAAY too easy for trolls to walk in front of teammates intentionally to get them kicked.
Despite how much certain people want to ignore it we have a serious problem with trolls in NS2. Giving them tools to grief people with is all this change would do.
Keep it normal, A random upgrade is just annoying.
If it chose a particular upgrade it could be annoying too.
9 out of 10 times you're going to select the same upgrades for that lifeform that you did last time.
Just have it remember the last upgrade selection for each lifeform. Then players can just choose to upgrade or not...
and if they want to take longer to swap up the upgrades for that lifeform based on some alternative strategy desired, they still can.
Keep it normal, A random upgrade is just annoying.
If it chose a particular upgrade it could be annoying too.
9 out of 10 times you're going to select the same upgrades for that lifeform that you did last time.
Just have it remember the last upgrade selection for each lifeform. Then players can just choose to upgrade or not...
and if they want to take longer to swap up the upgrades for that lifeform based on some alternative strategy desired, they still can.
It does keep the same upgrade if you already selected one. It only gives you a random upgrade if you don't select an upgrade. Rookies often never evolve their upgrades.
Keep it normal, A random upgrade is just annoying.
If it chose a particular upgrade it could be annoying too.
9 out of 10 times you're going to select the same upgrades for that lifeform that you did last time.
Just have it remember the last upgrade selection for each lifeform. Then players can just choose to upgrade or not...
and if they want to take longer to swap up the upgrades for that lifeform based on some alternative strategy desired, they still can.
It does keep the same upgrade if you already selected one. It only gives you a random upgrade if you don't select an upgrade. Rookies often never evolve their upgrades.
If it's the mod I played, a lerk upgrade will default the skulk upgrades to what you selected the lerk upgrades to be.
It would be nice if I could set default upgrades for each lifeform. Then, only changing them when I want to change tactic from my norm.
Perhaps give newbs the current meta as their default set of upgrades, and
perhaps also give us a quick envovle current lifeform key...as such to envolve into pre-set upgrades once hatched.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2018
Well since aliens always hatch from eggs as Skulks, shouldn't evolve last upgrades only memorise the upgrade on skulks? From my understanding, it does not record the upgrades on all the life forms yet. Though I know it's a half finished feature.
Perhaps there could a newbie friendly/safe set of default upgrades pre-selected, eg carapace+adrenaline+aura, that have no impact on the controls.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2018
The default upgrade picks were intended for players who are respawning for the first time and did not pick any evolutions. It could be an option that can be opted out from the menu.
I think it's worth a try, since aliens tend to feel horrible when losing. Marines have a wide range of powerful tools to siege hives (gas grenade, GL, FT, ARC, and Exo), it's usually the march to the hive that is the most difficult.
Comments
Promote the 'evolve last upgrade' feature rather than completely changing how spawn + evolution timings work during hive pushes.
Yeah, of course. This is good. It's frustrating to be killed in your hive when you weren't expecting it. Don't let marines into your hive. Aliens have every advantage when it comes to mobility and sensory feedback / communication.
But I would strongly suggest to make gorge tunnels always do a constant sound. So they could always be heard from a certain (and quite large) distance.
I know I will get tons of hate for this comment, but the amount of alien wins only due to cheesy tunnels is atrocious and I don't think that should be the case. That souldn't be the aim of a fun and balanced game. And the winrate of the public experience shouldn't be balanced to 50% when a significative chunck of these percentatge are atrocious alien teams finding a way to cheese it out, while marines don't.
Or maybe the problem is that even though the game was supposed to be 6v6, now it is impossible to find a server with less than 11v11, but the health of every structure in the game is still the same, but with the double number of bile and teeth around
You might get some hate but it'd be unwarranted. There have been many lengthy discussions about tunnels on Discord. We should really have a new thread for discussing why the current tunnel dynamic is such a huge drag on the game.
That is the joke.
I like the idea of the sound from a tunnel, but in general it would be useful, that this goes to another thread (and the issue how to not get fucking annoyed when you have tons of tunnels around) by this sound..
I agree that this planned change is an alien buff. I do not think it is enough of a buff to matter. Some see this as a significant buff while I see it as a very minor buff.
I am not sure how I might be convinced otherwise, or how I might change the minds of those who disagree with me. I think this may be in part a different perspective in that more competitive oriented players place more significance on even minor changes.
This really isn't about a single marines ability to kill a single skulk in a hive. And it's really just a shift in meta which means the marines have even less options to close a game where they've built an advantage. It's going to add to average game lengths which are already far too high.
Aliens should have to get through the full straight-line distance a tunnel covers. It's a tunnel.. if it had to exist, which it didn't, it never should have been a phase gate.
It is not only about those things. It is again a change that will dumb down the game further, and that sux. Usually you have to choose between the risk of using time and the risk of evolving (because you are so easily killable) versus being instant on the map but without upgrades.
It is sad to see that game depth gets removed more and more, even though this change might be one of the smaller ones, it still has its impact and in the end it all adds up.
And then suddenly you have aliens letting marines into their hives just so that they can have some closed tunnels silenced
Huh. The things you learn here even after years of playing.... thanks dude
I imagine the humans shat their pants the very moment... x)
This assumes that the teams are symmetric... which they are definitely not. Marines are sluggish compared to aliens, if their base is pushed/rushed while most of the players are on the field, it's hard to hold it. Aliens on the other hand can quickly respond to hive attacks.
The reason I prototyped this change was to test the water of allowing aliens to spawn with upgrades via a re-spawn evolve menu. Implementing such a re-spawn menu is a lot more work than a simple tweak to the spawn mechanism due to how the first person spectator works. So I wanted to make sure we have the balance aspect of such a change figured out before I start implementing a re-spawn menu.
However the feedback I got after pushing this change via my balance mod was rather surprising. Many players liked the change not for balance reasons but just for the convenience of not having to reapply/confirm their upgrades after every death. Many even started calling it a quality of life change.
So that's how the prototype intended to test the balance impact of a re-spawn evolve menu ended up as a feature.
'Beg your pardon ?
Maybe the Marines should just be less... dumb. I'm sorry guys but it's reality. Rushing a hive, using hand grenade and GL spamming without friendly fire set to "on" isn't much of a difficulty to be honest. Maybe teaching them "teamwork" will actually work.
I mean, the marines are supposed to be organized & following orders, while aliens (as an opposite in style) are supposed to be scavengers and such. Today we are in a situation that is quite the opposite. Aliens have to be organized much more than the marines do. Number of gorge at start, lifeforms, etc.
I'm even advocating for Friendly fire on. So the marines will have to "behave". No bans for teamkill, just a quick kick after 2 to avoid peasants.
Even if there are many more scenarios than just the so called hive rush; with a consistent organization and teamwork a hive is down in a matter of seconds when it's done properly. whatever you spawn with all upgrades or not.
This would be a horrible idea!!!
I remember how much of a nightmare it could be to play CoD back in the day when 3 tk's = kick. It was WAAAAAAAAY too easy for trolls to walk in front of teammates intentionally to get them kicked.
Despite how much certain people want to ignore it we have a serious problem with trolls in NS2. Giving them tools to grief people with is all this change would do.
If it chose a particular upgrade it could be annoying too.
9 out of 10 times you're going to select the same upgrades for that lifeform that you did last time.
Just have it remember the last upgrade selection for each lifeform. Then players can just choose to upgrade or not...
and if they want to take longer to swap up the upgrades for that lifeform based on some alternative strategy desired, they still can.
It does keep the same upgrade if you already selected one. It only gives you a random upgrade if you don't select an upgrade. Rookies often never evolve their upgrades.
If it's the mod I played, a lerk upgrade will default the skulk upgrades to what you selected the lerk upgrades to be.
It would be nice if I could set default upgrades for each lifeform. Then, only changing them when I want to change tactic from my norm.
Perhaps give newbs the current meta as their default set of upgrades, and
perhaps also give us a quick envovle current lifeform key...as such to envolve into pre-set upgrades once hatched.
Perhaps there could a newbie friendly/safe set of default upgrades pre-selected, eg carapace+adrenaline+aura, that have no impact on the controls.
Do you recommend those upgrades too? yikes!
I think it's worth a try, since aliens tend to feel horrible when losing. Marines have a wide range of powerful tools to siege hives (gas grenade, GL, FT, ARC, and Exo), it's usually the march to the hive that is the most difficult.