Planned Balance-change: Instant-Upgrades when you Spawn

HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 338 Advanced user
edited April 26 in NS2 General Discussion
A discussion about the Following Trellocard:
https://trello.com/c/iwJm0qjz/996-323-auto-select-alien-upgrades-at-respawn

Description
To avoid that new players run into the field without any upgrades we now reapply the last selected skulk upgrades at re-spawn. If a player hasn't selected a upgrade for a available chamber yet a random upgrade (excluding focus) gets selected.


Test Instructions
Confirm that aliens spawn with their last selected skulk upgrades
Confirm that Focus doesn't get picked randomly
Confirm that after upgrades got selected randomly it is reapplied the next time you spawn (unless you picked another upgrade in-between)
Give feedback

The reason I bring this up as Topic because I think it needs further balancing.

Some of you might be aware, that on ThirstyOnos there is this as a Mod, that you instantly spawn with full Upgrades as skulk and I think this is overpowered in certain situations.

Personally I think it is great, I'm superstrong and if I spawn beside a Marine I can instantly kill him. Spawning with celerity allows me to instantly dodge... and with leap AND celerity this is awesome... easy kills. BUT this is unfair, because the guys who are getting even more stomped are the non-high-skilled people or rookies and that is in my opinion an issue. (And we want player-retention eh?)

Having played with that for a long while now I think it should be nerfed since if the comm spawns "eggs" it is quite OP that they have instantly all upgrades.


My Idea:
Delayed Upgrade / evolving... It takes for example 6 Seconds till your upgrades can be used.
When you Spawn you see for example "3 times Celerity", but they aren't in effect (red/transparent), after every 2 seconds "1 spur" get's released... and after 6 seconds you have your full celerity and maybe other upgrades
- I think this would make playing more convenient - because no need to upgrade
- you have the chance to to stay in the fight the marines off without needing to gestate (if you hide behind a box)
- You can get Focus without gestating !! (No need to gestate would make it intuitive... just give focus later)
- the visualization (color red for upgrades) would make it intuitive to understand what is happening!



denied Ideas for me
- Increasing gestate-time... bad for spawncamping / unintuitive behaviour
- need to gestate again -> annoying and most ppl don't know about the gestate with same upgrades - button (that is completely weird for other players)
SquishpokePOOPFACE
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Comments

  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,800 admin
    edited April 26
    You think that aliens should be at a disadvantage in their own hive room?
    Frozen.trixX.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 688 Advanced user
    I thought this was already in vanilla because some servers use it.

    It is a very bad feature, but you have to do something if you don't want to put people into the stress of pressing b I guess.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,594 Advanced user
    edited April 26
    Is it really such a strong buff that it could change the outcome of even a few hive rushes?
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    You think that aliens should be at a disadvantage in their own hive room?
    We don't want either team to be too strong in their own tech points. Turtling is often a bad thing. We also don't want them too easy to rush. There is a balance to it, and auto upgrades tip that balance from where it is now. I am not convinced it makes a difference enough to need a nerf though.

    Seems like this could be an interesting conversation.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    IronHorse
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,662 Advanced user
    edited April 26
    I'm fine with it, having to evolve upgrades every time you spawn can reach a point of tedium if you die a lot. Similarly to the change that made it so marines don't have to go to the armory to collect ammo every time they respawn as well. Not to mention that if your base is currently being attacked then you likely need all the help you can get.

    Does this make the time until engagement shorter despite being short enough as it is? Yes. Though in the end it's still a quality of life change that I believe improves a rougher aspect of alien spawning.
    The_Welsh_WizardpSyk0mAn
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 338 Advanced user
    edited April 26
    When marines try to shotgunrush a game to end it - this will get quite risky.... if they have instant carapace/celerity/aura... combined with driftersupport, PvE, Bonewall.. holy shit spawning eggs...

    That will just promote defensive plays, turtling with arcs, dragging out more games

    You want to change the meta?
    This IS quite a difference...
    skav2
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,662 Advanced user
    Handschuh wrote: »
    You want to change the meta?
    This IS quite a difference...

    Too be frank it hardly changed in years, not that I believe it would drastically change how the game is played at least in the public space.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 338 Advanced user
    I noticed quite a difference between TTO with the Mod and other Servers..
    I think the refined thing would be to have delayed upgrades, just for a few seconds.
    Rushing into the hive and sniping an upgrade is a lot harder like that.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 549 Advanced user
    This has been tested on a few servers for a long time and barely changed balance at all...

    The argument that it disadvantages lower skill players is just wrong, spectate some lower skill games and see how many people don't take upgrades at all... I think this being added will solve that pesky problem and help lower skilled players far more than it hinders them.

    Is it a little bit of a comeback mechanic to egg lock? sure, kind of... but it is incredibly minor.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    NordicSupaFredpSyk0mAnHandschuhskav2
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 549 Advanced user
    edited April 26
    Because its relatively minor...

    Spawning still has a slight delay before you can actually move due to server > client ping etc, so you're a sitting duck for like, half a second, and the eggs don't get anything from your upgrade, so you can still kill them pretty damn quickly.

    Spawning with your upgrades has been tested a lot, for a long time on multiple servers and has shown little to no alteration to balance at all. Its a quality of life thing more than a balance thing.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    SupaFredpSyk0mAn
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,594 Advanced user
    Some say it is important, others like myself say it isn't. Could someone please explain why it really is a problem? No one has done this really well yet.

    I also don't think the 6 second upgrade timer is a big deal, if it were to be implemented.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 726 Advanced user
    I've played on TTS a few times, and I loved it that I dont have to B > CLick (>Click(>Click)) -> Click all the time. It's very convenient.
    But it CAN make a difference. I can easily imagine a scenario where a hiverush is stopped because skulks spawn with carapace (i dont know why leap popped up in the conversation).
    So it all depends on the circumstances... I'd be more comfortable with the idea of @Handschuh . It's still a QoL improvement, and will not change egg-lock dynamics in any way (sux for the aliens, but it has to happen sometimes).

    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    You think that aliens should be at a disadvantage in their own hive room?
    You think alien hive rooms should be impenetrable? :P
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 338 Advanced user
    edited April 27
    Nordic wrote: »
    Could someone please explain why it really is a problem? No one has done this really well yet.

    Some Quotes for example on IRC Discord (I'm old)
    Spring:
    yes it does matter if your ore tunnel is dying and u spawn with celerity and carapace
    it does matter

    4sdfg:
    timings are important in this game

    #1 drifter comm in the world :
    it matters a massive amount
    cara + focus vs skulk insta spawn can be the different between my SG one shotting or him killing me in one bite

    Spring :
    its already bad if u shoot 40 bullets to kill an egg and he spawns with full hp
    its even worse if he spawns with full hp and carapace and focus

    ###################################

    #1 drifter comm in the world:
    it's not about rushing with no armour and killing respawners

    it's pushing the hive, losing armour when you kill people and then controlling the respawns after you've got some control over the room
    armour is low, spawn wave coming
    if aliens want to come in with upgrades they should spawn at a second hive
    if aliens don't have a second hive and their only one is being pushed and they're in spawn cue they usually deserve to lose


    Some examples on the official ns2 discord

    The timings are completely different - skulks are quicker ready in the fight. (Basically the spawntime is shortened)
    With spawned eggs when everyone rushes through a tunnel to save the other tunnel it is quite a difference if there are suddenly 4 skulks with carapace or without carapace. (That is why 6 Seconds are probably not enough)

    That is why a solution would be needed that they wouldn't have full upgrades instantly on the other side.



    I like the change that you don't need to reupgrade after every death, but the balance-implications have to be considered and adressed.
    If Top-Skilled player spawns beside 3 rookies spawncamping - this player will easily take them out thanks to the change
    (I've down that several times, even though we should've lost at that point) -> this just leads to more dragged out games -> hurts playerretention..
    .trixX.radionaut
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,569 Advanced user
    edited April 27
    Time-to-upgrade manually <= Time-to-upgrade automatically>

    Clear and obvious implementation ↑ The variable can be adjusted for balance as long as it fits in the above equation.
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited April 27
    .trixX. wrote: »
    I've played on TTS a few times, and I loved it that I dont have to B > CLick (>Click(>Click)) -> Click all the time. It's very convenient.

    theres a "evolve last upgrade" keybind so u dont have to do this

    Time-to-upgrade manually <= Time-to-upgrade automatically>

    Clear and obvious implementation ↑ The variable can be adjusted for balance as long as it fits in the above equation.

    you'd have to weight upgrades as well, because this assumes every upgrade is equally as good when it comes to immediately killing marines in the hive room as you spawn. things like adrenaline (without leap), regeneration, invis (whatever it's called), and crush aren't particularly helpful in this scenario. so what would happen is a skulk would automatically get 2-3 seconds added onto his respawn time using these insignificant upgrades when he'd rather just spawn two seconds quicker without them before his egg dies.

    cara, cele, silence and the damage increasing upgrade are all too good to automatically spawn with, while all the others are more inconsequential.
    .trixX.radionaut
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,569 Advanced user
    edited April 27
    get 2-3 seconds added onto his respawn time

    Why adjust spawn rates at all? Just have the upgrades kick in XYZ number of seconds after spawning, in accordance to whatever value deemed appropriate. As long as it is slower than doing it manually, you are basically helping forgetful/lazy players while having no other effect otherwise.
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    The_Welsh_WizardHandschuhskav2radionaut
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited April 27
    while having no other effect otherwise.

    not exactly. so with that change, you get to spawn and immediately respond to any threats on the map at full effectiveness, instead of having to balance "should I evolve so i'm stronger, or get there as soon as possible?". defending tunnels will be easier for one.
    The_Welsh_WizardGhosthree3radionaut
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,569 Advanced user
    edited April 28

    not exactly. so with that change, you get to spawn and immediately respond to any threats on the map at full effectiveness, instead of having to balance "should I evolve so i'm stronger, or get there as soon as possible?". defending tunnels will be easier for one.

    So push the variable forward to ~10-15 seconds after spawn.
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    The_Welsh_Wizardradionaut
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    edited April 28
    "should I evolve so i'm stronger, or get there as soon as possible?"

    I run into this choice almost every single game, I'm not sure it should be taken away. Choosing to take an upgrade before going through a tunnel, risking that tunnel dying, is a big decision.

    Just put annoying tooltips on Rookie screens whenever they don't have an upgrade (toggleable in options).
    76561197996992409.png
    coolitic_INTER_
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,420 Advanced user
    I'm mostly not a fan of the random upgrade selection. I'd prefer if there was some big popup telling me to press b to evolve upgrades. If the problem is players not being aware of these or forgetting to evolve them, sweeping them under the rug and saying "Don't worry about these" is not the way to go.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    The_Welsh_WizardMoFo1SquishpokePOOPFACEcooliticGhosthree3
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,569 Advanced user
    edited April 28
    IH has specifically witnessed pop-ups not working at PAX.
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
    Nordic
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,497 mod
    I'd only want instant upgrades/evolutions if you were kept in your egg for longer after spawning - this would be the same length of time as if you'd evolved while alive.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
    skav2
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,198 Advanced user
    What ever happened to @remi 's idea of bringing up the evolve menu while in the spawn queue? It would be great if rookies didn't even have to learn about the evolve menu button until they want to learn to ninja gorge.
    _INTER_
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,335 Advanced user
    These changes might be a problem in 6v6 comp play but they are not in pub.
    In a typical pub alienteam these days:

    30% didnt noticed that they have auto upgrades and they run on the floor straight into multiple rines and die
    30% realized they have auto upgraded but doing the same like above without changing the upgrades to there needs
    30% realized they have auto upgrades, they doing ok but they didnt play any better with them.
    10 or less % having an real little advantage of this

    In my eyes its not changing any balance in pub.
    Its more a QoL change, cause pressing b and evolve the same upgrades again and again is getting really boring over time.

    Btw. you want to introduce more QoL stuff?
    Then introduce autoshuffle if the skill gap is to high after round start.
    Repeating "press m and shuffle" like an mantra every round for 5 years is getting boring too.
    image
    The_Welsh_WizardHandschuhNordicmoultanopSyk0mAnskav2
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    Its more a QoL change, cause pressing b and evolve the same upgrades again and again is getting really boring over time.

    maybe the devs should do something to let more people know about the "Evolve Last Upgrade" that's been around for a long time
  • NintendowsNintendows Join Date: 2016-11-07 Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 226 Advanced user
    dePARA wrote: »
    Btw. you want to introduce more QoL stuff?
    Then introduce autoshuffle if the skill gap is to high after round start.
    Repeating "press m and shuffle" like an mantra every round for 5 years is getting boring too.

    Vanilla NS2 does not support shuffle, and the "press m and shuffle" feature is provided by a community member with their Shine mod: https://github.com/Person8880/Shine/wiki

    If you'd like more/different features, the creator is very open to feedback and is still working on the project quite actively.
    skav2Nordic
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,594 Advanced user
    I am fairly certain that auto shuffle can be enabled on a server by choice of the server operator. The community could auto shuffle if they wanted to without UWE.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • XaleXale Paris / France Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24767Members Posts: 92 Advanced user
    Skulk spawning with carapace will be a nightmare for marine try to kill a hive... It's not only about skulk, it's about the swarm. Skulk are really pain in the ass even for exo, they stick our your feet. And with hallucination... still worse...


    And if silence is removed, will still Shift hive be the first or second choice ? not sure.

    on NS1.0 Defense tower use to be the first upgrade (well sensory chamber didn't cloak and movement didn't teleport at that time)
    Old NS1.0 player (JP/HMG for the win)
    Mapper (de_mangashop for CS1.6 / CSS / CS:GO )
    Currently Re-Working ns_hera, taking ns2_hera by |-DMD-| Rusty as a base
    Follow advancement here : https://steamcommunity.com/id/xale_gc/screenshots/
  • skav2skav2 Join Date: 2007-05-28 Member: 61037Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 140 Advanced user
    If you can select your upgrades when you are dead and spawn with them the egg spawn timer will be increased to match what it would normally take to spawn, then upgrade. So if you do not select upgrades the spawn time will be the same. If you do decide to get upgrades however it will take longer to gestate when you spawn in an egg just like it is now.

    Doing this poses a risk to aliens when their hive is being pushed by marines. If marines get into the hive they can egg lock (which they do most of the time anyway) and aliens will have to choose if selecting upgrades and waiting to gestate is worth doing or not.
    XaleRedSword
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