@bonage, i guess it just makes more sense to stop playing the game all together and give no input to the people who are working on the game. Oh and, keep smiling of course.
I'm not even sure how to respond to this? If people want to stop playing the game, then no one is stopping them. If people want to stop playing the game because they don't agree with the decisions made by the CDT, that is their choice. How is that different from any other game development process? People will always not agree with choices that are made, but the majority of the time, people will continue to play if they are still enjoying it regardless.
The fact that we have a community picked (not run) dev team does not suddenly open the floodgates for anything and everything to be decided and voted upon by public opinions. At the end of the day, choices are going to be made, based upon a whole array of things like constructive critcism, internal playtests and decisions, facts and data, UWE influence, and other stuff. Player feedback will form a part of that process, but only a part. Don't expect anything more than that.
Also this notion that somehow including all the input that people write on this forum will magically turn back the clock on the average player count is laughable. Even with the current ideas that the CDT have for the game, it is going to be extremely hard to get the player base back up to a healthy level. You would almost have to relaunch the game as free to play, with a micro-transaction economy, a host of new shiny features and rock solid performance to have that effect. That level of work cannot be expected from a group of unpaid volunteers.
Another problem that troubles the community is the presence of PremDiv players among the CDT that take care of the balance. We won’t come back on a debate that leads to nowhere, but we think that one representant of each lower division should be consulted before major balance changes. This would help get the best changes possible and will please lower divisions players that can have some different opinion about balance (we all know the game plays differently in PremDiv and in Div4). This is only an idea, but such as this one, more could sprout.
So you assume that the minority of people in the CDT that play in prem div are too good to understand how any balance changes might affect public play or lower skilled players? I think this is very misleading. Just because they play at a higher level doesn't mean that they are incapable of making changes/design choices that will also accommodate lower tier players. In fact, I would be inclined to think that they would be an asset to have on a dev team, because they understand better than anyone how the balance values/core mechanics work, and would be in a position to make changes that work for all skill levels.
Putting a 'representative' in for the sake of having a socialist dev team is a terrible idea. It would only serve to make the development process 10x harder and longer, and split what remains of this community even more than what you are unintentionally doing here right now.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Lets stay a bit realistic... its been shown in the past that choices made by prem div people on balance affecting lower div, was completely wrong and ignored. Even when players from those very divisions were explaining why so.
Yes they do seem to have problems getting in a low enought skill mindset to realise how it sometimes works. While this is a clear sign of their knowledge of high level play, it does not always help the people who do not even closely reach that.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Lets just get something straight, the div one players do not decide the ns2 balance and most cdt members are pub players. Pub and comp players are all required to get a balanced game. The comp mod was not merged as it is, far from it.
There are some public servers running comp mod and you get the same experience really. Some games are good, some games are bad. Generally speaking, "vanilla" and "compmod" public games are both different, both balanced, and both are fun. The real differences in quality games are found in the skill disparity of the players in those servers.
There are some public servers running comp mod and you get the same experience really. Some games are good, some games are bad. Generally speaking, "vanilla" and "compmod" public games are both different, both balanced, and both are fun. The real differences in quality games are found in the skill disparity of the players in those servers.
I 100% fully agree but in that case, and what @DC_Darkling is trying to explain are about the lower divisions that are not represented in the CDT, there's nothing about the CompMod here even if there are also people complaining about the same issue. Premium players can get awesome and bad ideas as much as a division 4 player or another public player can get. I know there are a majority of public players in the CDT, but the other small part is composed by premium players. That can make sense for some but not for everyone. We have public players that can have different ideas than a premier div player and same about a division 3 player. It's just about that feeling to have public and premier players but nobody between both.
Lets stay a bit realistic... its been shown in the past that choices made by prem div people on balance affecting lower div, was completely wrong and ignored. Even when players from those very divisions were explaining why so.
Yes they do seem to have problems getting in a low enought skill mindset to realise how it sometimes works. While this is a clear sign of their knowledge of high level play, it does not always help the people who do not even closely reach that.
Ok whilst we're being realistic, give me one example where this occured and has affected vanilla NS2 gameplay. Especially given that:
Lets just get something straight, the div one players do not decide the ns2 balance and most cdt members are pub players. Pub and comp players are all required to get a balanced game. The comp mod was not merged as it is, far from it.
It's easy to get carried away with details and petty arguments. What's most important is to see the bigger picture.
This is a discussion that needed to happen at some point, whether or not everyone acknowledges that fact. As a result, there have already been some changes. The form in which this discussion came into existence shouldn't be a consideration: we all have the same goals and should focus forwards on improving the game, and improving the community.
I don't want to have a say in most of the changes that the CDT makes - that wouldn't be appropriate. However, for big/contentious things, a separate discussion thread is probably a good idea. I'm not saying the cdt shouldn't still get the casting vote or veto.
I 100% fully agree but in that case, and what @DC_Darkling is trying to explain are about the lower divisions that are not represented in the CDT
There doesn't need to be forced representation of anybody, it just so happens that some of the people that give balance input in the CDT are public players and prem players, they have not been picked BECAUSE they are prem/public. Both are probably entirely inconsequential.
Premium players can get awesome and bad ideas as much as a division 4 player or another public player can get.
This is true that anyone can come up with a great idea, but it's really only possible to balance at the top, and the people who know the intricacies and exploitative mechanics are the top players. This is why they are top players, because they know whats the best thing to do. Now there are also public people giving input and I suppose that's to give a reality check to remind people that there are public servers where it's 10v10.
We have public players that can have different ideas than a premier div player and same about a division 3 player.
And everyone is welcome to give input and feedback. Get involved! Write on these forums, get involved through steam chat, take an interest. However, don't feel so entitled to have your view put into the game. It might very well just be a terrible idea, but you have to understand a terrible idea being rejected from being rejected because of your skill level.
It's just about that feeling to have public and premier players but nobody between both.
If the concerns are seriously because a group of people don't feel like they're getting their cut of the cake, then let me tell you that balance discussions aren't fun or exciting, they're just discussions are aren't to be envied.
@OP An open letter to prevent something just did ... not... That looks awkward to say the least and produced walls of text. Everybody make mistakes, say you're sorry, close the thread and we can all move on.
@others : If you feel the game is dying why bombing this thread with huge loads of energy on forums while (depending on what you decide):
-There is a world out there.
-You can (in)put some energy in something more constructive.
Make maps / mods / events. Whatever.
If you don't know how to -> learn by trying and joining some groups. What you will learn will not be lost.
You don't have to create a 1000 word google doc with signatures for people to listen to your suggestions.
This ^
If those of you who signed this document didn't already know because you weren't very active on the forums, (you should now if you read this thread or any other) we are very easy to reach and are very approachable.
You needn't go to dramatic lengths for us to read your critiques or suggestions. Just about every single post is read by the CDT because some of us like myself are forumites and share / link those who are not.
So please, provide feedback, make suggestions, tell us what should be adjusted... and just remember that you can do this in 2 seconds by making a polite thread or sending one of us a PM, no need to "show support" to get an honest reply and a discussion from us, we're pretty active in here.
Just be warned: I personally like to debate
There doesn't need to be forced representation of anybody, it just so happens that some of the people that give balance input in the CDT are public players and prem players, they have not been picked BECAUSE they are prem/public. Both are probably entirely inconsequential.
That's right and nobody complained about this as far as I know. But that doesn't mean people in other divisions cannot join the CDT as Balance/Discussion job neither, but I really think this guy should have arguments and proofs about this 'cause as you said, this is not random people in the team. I don't really know if that's needed on the vanilla game development. Personally, I think this discussion could have more sense if it was about competitive stuff.
This is true that anyone can come up with a great idea, but it's really only possible to balance at the top, and the people who know the intricacies and exploitative mechanics are the top players. This is why they are top players, because they know whats the best thing to do. Now there are also public people giving input and I suppose that's to give a reality check to remind people that there are public servers where it's 10v10.
Well, I'm afraid to say that's not true. Of course there are reasons for people to be in their respective division. And I could even say in a classic game with a huge community that seems legit to think like you. On NS2, at least, the divisions are getting closer of each others, the reasons that make players in premier div or another one is their skill level, how they shoot and aim. This not about strategies anymore or teamplay, both are importants for sure but not the most valuable causes. I've refereed a ton of matches to be sure enough strategies are in general similar regardless of the divisions and do not come from premium players everytime. All the current competitive players have played the game for around 1 year or so, they're all experienced and if I put away the lowest division, they have same strategies, in general a good teamplay in divisions 1 and 2 (even 3) but they have definitely not the same ability to kill their ennemies when they're supposed to do it. The most important point to notice. That means they have the same brain abilities but different physical skills.
And everyone is welcome to give input and feedback. Get involved! Write on these forums, get involved through steam chat, take an interest. However, don't feel so entitled to have your view put into the game. It might very well just be a terrible idea, but you have to understand a terrible idea being rejected from being rejected because of your skill level.
If the concerns are seriously because a group of people don't feel like they're getting their cut of the cake, then let me tell you that balance discussions aren't fun or exciting, they're just discussions are aren't to be envied.
This is true that anyone can come up with a great idea, but it's really only possible to balance at the top, and the people who know the intricacies and exploitative mechanics are the top players. This is why they are top players, because they know whats the best thing to do. Now there are also public people giving input and I suppose that's to give a reality check to remind people that there are public servers where it's 10v10.
Well, I'm afraid to say that's not true. Of course there are reasons for people to be in their respective division. And I could even say in a classic game with a huge community that seems legit to think like you. On NS2, at least, the divisions are getting closer of each others, the reasons that make players in premier div or another one is their skill level, how they shoot and aim. This not about strategies anymore or teamplay, both are importants for sure but not the most valuable causes. I've refereed a ton of matches to be sure enough strategies are in general similar regardless of the divisions and do not come from premium players everytime. All the current competitive players have played the game for around 1 year or so, they're all experienced and if I put away the lowest division, they have same strategies, in general a good teamplay in divisions 1 and 2 (even 3) but they have definitely not the same ability to kill their ennemies when they're supposed to do it. The most important point to notice. That means they have the same brain abilities but different physical skills.
Sorry, I've watched matches, field merced, and comm merced in lower divisions and it simply is not the same strategies. Same tech route, sure, but not the same strategies. Going fast upgrades but zoning and pressuring really poorly is akin to ARC rushes without marines to cover the ARCs. If you do the optimum tech route (assuming there is one on one particular map), then you have to execute it properly and this is just not happening, not because of a lack of aim and reflexes, but from bad decision making processes. A lot of teams are really just using "copy cat strats" and don't understand the reasoning behind the decisions they make.
The only way to balance for all skill levels would be to lower the skill ceiling drastically so that everyone can max out the effectiveness of weapons and lifeforms and that would severely take away the excitement from any game because everyone would be as good as each other.
Another problem that troubles the community is the presence of PremDiv players among the CDT that take care of the balance. We won’t come back on a debate that leads to nowhere, but we think that one representant of each lower division should be consulted before major balance changes. This would help get the best changes possible and will please lower divisions players that can have some different opinion about balance (we all know the game plays differently in PremDiv and in Div4). This is only an idea, but such as this one, more could sprout.
How would you even pick a person from each div? A vote? Then it's just a popularity contest among the divisions. Then there's the issue of people changing divisions. What happens when your Div 4 representative gets better and moves up to a Div 2 team? Do you kick them out? Do you have to repick every NSL season? What about representatives that just don't really participate? Or are asking for stuff completely off the wall? Do we need an even split between NA/EU/AUS representatives as well? How do we determine that? It's really a huge mess.
And really though, sure, there's a very small number of premier players that are on the team. However, if you actually take a look at our team, there are far more players who are lower divisions. When it comes to playtest, we have players that range in skill from div 4 to div 1. A lot of the playtest team is even on the lower end of that spectrum. There's a small handful of players who have previous/current competitive experience, but the majority of our playtest team are just pubbers. So while you may not have the "singular representative" that you want, there's players in a very wide range of skill that are playing the game and the balance changes. Besides, there aren't any planned balance changes anyway.
If you have actual feedback on a particular part of vanilla balance, please make a thread and discuss with evidence why it's bad. Don't start a thread that says "Gorges are bad now." Tell us why gorges are bad. If you actually provide reasons, people are more than happy to discuss it.
Honestly though, this sounds more like people have issues with comp mod. A lot of people were complaining about lerk changes. However, these changes were never in vanilla. They were briefly in our internal build. While we took some ideas from comp mod, it was in no way just copied over. It was adjusted for public play. It was NOT adjusted for competitive. Many of your complaints are addressing competitive play, wanting players from each division to speak up about balance. Competitive play balance is handled by Comp Mod.
If you have issues with Comp Mod, there is an entire thread on the NSL forums specifically for the discussion of balance. Everyone is encouraged to share their thoughts/opinions regardless of their division. They also hold meetings on TeamSpeak which are announced.
If there are more questions, I'll answer what I can.
the reasons that make players in premier div or another one is their skill level, how they shoot and aim.
False. That is a very small characteristic of what differentiates players in different divisions.
Let's play a premier team against a division 1 team.
You know, if that question had been raised 3 months ago or even before, I would probably agree with you. But now, there are no more new teams (or new incoming players that join NSL, or a few number), no more new strategies, all the game or plenty of them look similar. That's why the CompMod has been made? And that's why I like the idea. That's right, in premier division, let's take a look on Titus playing vs. Snails, one of them is going to win the match 'cause of an important bunch of factors (skills, strategies, luck, etc), definitely the same way in every internal division match. But this is not true between each division, at least, division 3 and 2/ division 2 and 1/ division 1 and premier. You've got the point.
But it seems that the problem is about this. Point of view of the premium teams about lower divisions and the lower divisions about premier division.
Here again, in my opinion, it should concern only competitive and CompMod, not the CDT.
the reasons that make players in premier div or another one is their skill level, how they shoot and aim.
False. That is a very small characteristic of what differentiates players in different divisions.
But it IS an important characteristic that separates regular players from comp players. That, along with teamwork.
Basically Rookie->Skilled pubber->Comp Player
Rookies have worst accuracy and tend to have less teamwork ability (well, in general anyways), while the comp players tend to have much better accuracy and great teamwork skills (again, speaking in general)
However you are right that is not what separates players in different divs.
On NS2, at least, the divisions are getting closer of each others, the reasons that make players in premier div or another one is their skill level, how they shoot and aim.
I’ll take the bite then…
Saying that ”aiming” is the difference between high level players and lower level players is really ignorant and disrespectful thing to say. Ignorant, because like in all FPS games, NS2 is mostly about positioning and there is infinite skill in positioning. Hell, I would say that 90% of ”aiming” is about positioning and that is just aiming. Disrespectful because you are ignoring all the experience and game sense high level players possess, reducing that to just aiming is simple outrageous. I have trained like 50+ players from low or middle level to high level and the difference between truly high level player and middle level player is much larger than difference between public player and low level competitive player.
But now, there are no more new teams (or new incoming players that join NSL, or a few number), no more new strategies, all the game or plenty of them look similar.
There are also lots of new viable strategies that any clan has used constantly. Also strategies aren’t about building orders but positioning your units. Building order is just small part of overall meaning of strategy in this game. We have been playing few weeks now after summer break and we already have a new meta strategy.
But it IS an important characteristic that separates regular players from comp players. That, along with teamwork.
Basically Rookie->Skilled pubber->Comp Player
Rookies have worst accuracy and tend to have less teamwork ability (well, in general anyways), while the comp players tend to have much better accuracy and great teamwork skills (again, speaking in general)
However you are right that is not what separates players in different divs.
Well, my thoughts did not concern rookies and even public players with competitive players. But yeah, about this, that's right.
The CDT is the old boys club from #nsmapping on GSIRC - anything you say will wash over there heads, they have a one track mind, and dont mind changing ns2 until THEY are happy.
The CDT is the old boys club from #nsmapping on GSIRC - anything you say will wash over there heads, they have a one track mind, and dont mind changing ns2 until THEY are happy.
This leads me to believe you actually have not seen the team members list, and who is in charge making decisions.
The CDT is the old boys club from #nsmapping on GSIRC - anything you say will wash over there heads, they have a one track mind, and dont mind changing ns2 until THEY are happy.
This leads me to believe you actually have not seen the team members list, and who is in charge making decisions.
This leads me to believe you've spent too much time on YO-clan and have lost your sense of humour.
This is true that anyone can come up with a great idea, but it's really only possible to balance at the top, and the people who know the intricacies and exploitative mechanics are the top players. This is why they are top players, because they know whats the best thing to do. Now there are also public people giving input and I suppose that's to give a reality check to remind people that there are public servers where it's 10v10.
They're the top players because they're good at playing the game; they can shoot well and they understand positioning, strategy, and how to counter their opponents. However, being at the top doesn't mean they know how to make a game. It's critical that people understand that game skill does not mean game design skill. Being skilled at a game doesn't mean that you can solve problems related to balance or see all of the implications of a change in a deeply complicated system. It doesn't mean you can tell whether your proposed change is consistent with the game's core elements or follows good design principles like ensuring that optimal play is fun. Game design is its own thing and becoming skilled at it takes a lot of time and experience. It doesn't mean being good at games, and some of the best game designers suck at their own games.
There is no possible way to rebalance and improve a game without pissing off a subset of the community with each change. It simply can't be done. If the CDT did design by committee and only implemented changes that got an overwhelmingly positive public response, a lot of great (but controversial) ideas would be completely off the table because the forums could never come to agreement. First example that comes to mind is armories no longer healing armor - that was an executive decision by UWE that probably would have been torpedoed by community politics if they weren't willing to just pull the trigger on it themselves. Also half the stuff in the balance mod for that matter. Like it or not, the CDT is in charge now and that means they have the authority to make these calls. Making a big political production over it isn't helping anybody.
There is a huge difference between designing a game, and balancing one. Skill in games is mostly irrelevant from game design, this is correct. But for balancing a game, especially one with skill curves like NS2, the players skill is an important consideration. This does not mean that every good player can make useful balance contributions, just as it doesn't mean that every lower skilled player cannot help with balance. Generally speaking there are very few people who can look at balance in a manner which abstracts skill, so you will always want to look to players at the top to see what is possible. That doesn't mean their feedback is always correct however, they are just as susceptible to bias as everyone else so that has to be accounted for. Once you get the higher levels in place and aligned with your design vision, its easier to adjust the middle or bottom as needed. Trying to fix the bottom first can often times ends up causing a ripple effect through all levels.
Basically what I mean is that people at the top are useful for their ability to push the game to its limits, not necessarily on how to 'fix' the balance. There are people who are able to provide good balance insight regardless of skill level, but they are generally much harder to find because it can be difficult to understand the entire impact of a change without knowing the upper limits of players.
Comments
I'm not even sure how to respond to this? If people want to stop playing the game, then no one is stopping them. If people want to stop playing the game because they don't agree with the decisions made by the CDT, that is their choice. How is that different from any other game development process? People will always not agree with choices that are made, but the majority of the time, people will continue to play if they are still enjoying it regardless.
The fact that we have a community picked (not run) dev team does not suddenly open the floodgates for anything and everything to be decided and voted upon by public opinions. At the end of the day, choices are going to be made, based upon a whole array of things like constructive critcism, internal playtests and decisions, facts and data, UWE influence, and other stuff. Player feedback will form a part of that process, but only a part. Don't expect anything more than that.
Also this notion that somehow including all the input that people write on this forum will magically turn back the clock on the average player count is laughable. Even with the current ideas that the CDT have for the game, it is going to be extremely hard to get the player base back up to a healthy level. You would almost have to relaunch the game as free to play, with a micro-transaction economy, a host of new shiny features and rock solid performance to have that effect. That level of work cannot be expected from a group of unpaid volunteers.
So you assume that the minority of people in the CDT that play in prem div are too good to understand how any balance changes might affect public play or lower skilled players? I think this is very misleading. Just because they play at a higher level doesn't mean that they are incapable of making changes/design choices that will also accommodate lower tier players. In fact, I would be inclined to think that they would be an asset to have on a dev team, because they understand better than anyone how the balance values/core mechanics work, and would be in a position to make changes that work for all skill levels.
Putting a 'representative' in for the sake of having a socialist dev team is a terrible idea. It would only serve to make the development process 10x harder and longer, and split what remains of this community even more than what you are unintentionally doing here right now.
Yes they do seem to have problems getting in a low enought skill mindset to realise how it sometimes works. While this is a clear sign of their knowledge of high level play, it does not always help the people who do not even closely reach that.
I 100% fully agree but in that case, and what @DC_Darkling is trying to explain are about the lower divisions that are not represented in the CDT, there's nothing about the CompMod here even if there are also people complaining about the same issue. Premium players can get awesome and bad ideas as much as a division 4 player or another public player can get. I know there are a majority of public players in the CDT, but the other small part is composed by premium players. That can make sense for some but not for everyone. We have public players that can have different ideas than a premier div player and same about a division 3 player. It's just about that feeling to have public and premier players but nobody between both.
Ok whilst we're being realistic, give me one example where this occured and has affected vanilla NS2 gameplay. Especially given that:
This is a discussion that needed to happen at some point, whether or not everyone acknowledges that fact. As a result, there have already been some changes. The form in which this discussion came into existence shouldn't be a consideration: we all have the same goals and should focus forwards on improving the game, and improving the community.
I don't want to have a say in most of the changes that the CDT makes - that wouldn't be appropriate. However, for big/contentious things, a separate discussion thread is probably a good idea. I'm not saying the cdt shouldn't still get the casting vote or veto.
There doesn't need to be forced representation of anybody, it just so happens that some of the people that give balance input in the CDT are public players and prem players, they have not been picked BECAUSE they are prem/public. Both are probably entirely inconsequential.
This is true that anyone can come up with a great idea, but it's really only possible to balance at the top, and the people who know the intricacies and exploitative mechanics are the top players. This is why they are top players, because they know whats the best thing to do. Now there are also public people giving input and I suppose that's to give a reality check to remind people that there are public servers where it's 10v10.
And everyone is welcome to give input and feedback. Get involved! Write on these forums, get involved through steam chat, take an interest. However, don't feel so entitled to have your view put into the game. It might very well just be a terrible idea, but you have to understand a terrible idea being rejected from being rejected because of your skill level.
If the concerns are seriously because a group of people don't feel like they're getting their cut of the cake, then let me tell you that balance discussions aren't fun or exciting, they're just discussions are aren't to be envied.
Oops wrong forums. Sorry...
More seriously :
@OP An open letter to prevent something just did ... not... That looks awkward to say the least and produced walls of text. Everybody make mistakes, say you're sorry, close the thread and we can all move on.
@others : If you feel the game is dying why bombing this thread with huge loads of energy on forums while (depending on what you decide):
-There is a world out there.
-You can (in)put some energy in something more constructive.
Make maps / mods / events. Whatever.
If you don't know how to -> learn by trying and joining some groups. What you will learn will not be lost.
If those of you who signed this document didn't already know because you weren't very active on the forums, (you should now if you read this thread or any other) we are very easy to reach and are very approachable.
You needn't go to dramatic lengths for us to read your critiques or suggestions. Just about every single post is read by the CDT because some of us like myself are forumites and share / link those who are not.
So please, provide feedback, make suggestions, tell us what should be adjusted... and just remember that you can do this in 2 seconds by making a polite thread or sending one of us a PM, no need to "show support" to get an honest reply and a discussion from us, we're pretty active in here.
Just be warned: I personally like to debate
That's right and nobody complained about this as far as I know. But that doesn't mean people in other divisions cannot join the CDT as Balance/Discussion job neither, but I really think this guy should have arguments and proofs about this 'cause as you said, this is not random people in the team. I don't really know if that's needed on the vanilla game development. Personally, I think this discussion could have more sense if it was about competitive stuff.
Well, I'm afraid to say that's not true. Of course there are reasons for people to be in their respective division. And I could even say in a classic game with a huge community that seems legit to think like you. On NS2, at least, the divisions are getting closer of each others, the reasons that make players in premier div or another one is their skill level, how they shoot and aim. This not about strategies anymore or teamplay, both are importants for sure but not the most valuable causes. I've refereed a ton of matches to be sure enough strategies are in general similar regardless of the divisions and do not come from premium players everytime. All the current competitive players have played the game for around 1 year or so, they're all experienced and if I put away the lowest division, they have same strategies, in general a good teamplay in divisions 1 and 2 (even 3) but they have definitely not the same ability to kill their ennemies when they're supposed to do it. The most important point to notice. That means they have the same brain abilities but different physical skills.
About the CDT and vanilla game, I agree.
I trust you.
Sorry, I've watched matches, field merced, and comm merced in lower divisions and it simply is not the same strategies. Same tech route, sure, but not the same strategies. Going fast upgrades but zoning and pressuring really poorly is akin to ARC rushes without marines to cover the ARCs. If you do the optimum tech route (assuming there is one on one particular map), then you have to execute it properly and this is just not happening, not because of a lack of aim and reflexes, but from bad decision making processes. A lot of teams are really just using "copy cat strats" and don't understand the reasoning behind the decisions they make.
The only way to balance for all skill levels would be to lower the skill ceiling drastically so that everyone can max out the effectiveness of weapons and lifeforms and that would severely take away the excitement from any game because everyone would be as good as each other.
Do you ever like to mass-debate?
...
How would you even pick a person from each div? A vote? Then it's just a popularity contest among the divisions. Then there's the issue of people changing divisions. What happens when your Div 4 representative gets better and moves up to a Div 2 team? Do you kick them out? Do you have to repick every NSL season? What about representatives that just don't really participate? Or are asking for stuff completely off the wall? Do we need an even split between NA/EU/AUS representatives as well? How do we determine that? It's really a huge mess.
And really though, sure, there's a very small number of premier players that are on the team. However, if you actually take a look at our team, there are far more players who are lower divisions. When it comes to playtest, we have players that range in skill from div 4 to div 1. A lot of the playtest team is even on the lower end of that spectrum. There's a small handful of players who have previous/current competitive experience, but the majority of our playtest team are just pubbers. So while you may not have the "singular representative" that you want, there's players in a very wide range of skill that are playing the game and the balance changes. Besides, there aren't any planned balance changes anyway.
If you have actual feedback on a particular part of vanilla balance, please make a thread and discuss with evidence why it's bad. Don't start a thread that says "Gorges are bad now." Tell us why gorges are bad. If you actually provide reasons, people are more than happy to discuss it.
Honestly though, this sounds more like people have issues with comp mod. A lot of people were complaining about lerk changes. However, these changes were never in vanilla. They were briefly in our internal build. While we took some ideas from comp mod, it was in no way just copied over. It was adjusted for public play. It was NOT adjusted for competitive. Many of your complaints are addressing competitive play, wanting players from each division to speak up about balance. Competitive play balance is handled by Comp Mod.
If you have issues with Comp Mod, there is an entire thread on the NSL forums specifically for the discussion of balance. Everyone is encouraged to share their thoughts/opinions regardless of their division. They also hold meetings on TeamSpeak which are announced.
If there are more questions, I'll answer what I can.
False. That is a very small characteristic of what differentiates players in different divisions.
Let's play a premier team against a division 1 team.
You know, if that question had been raised 3 months ago or even before, I would probably agree with you. But now, there are no more new teams (or new incoming players that join NSL, or a few number), no more new strategies, all the game or plenty of them look similar. That's why the CompMod has been made? And that's why I like the idea. That's right, in premier division, let's take a look on Titus playing vs. Snails, one of them is going to win the match 'cause of an important bunch of factors (skills, strategies, luck, etc), definitely the same way in every internal division match. But this is not true between each division, at least, division 3 and 2/ division 2 and 1/ division 1 and premier. You've got the point.
But it seems that the problem is about this. Point of view of the premium teams about lower divisions and the lower divisions about premier division.
Here again, in my opinion, it should concern only competitive and CompMod, not the CDT.
fixed
ps: Golden pls no flamethrowers.
ps2: Zefram plz no view models for marines.
But it IS an important characteristic that separates regular players from comp players. That, along with teamwork.
Basically Rookie->Skilled pubber->Comp Player
Rookies have worst accuracy and tend to have less teamwork ability (well, in general anyways), while the comp players tend to have much better accuracy and great teamwork skills (again, speaking in general)
However you are right that is not what separates players in different divs.
Saying that ”aiming” is the difference between high level players and lower level players is really ignorant and disrespectful thing to say. Ignorant, because like in all FPS games, NS2 is mostly about positioning and there is infinite skill in positioning. Hell, I would say that 90% of ”aiming” is about positioning and that is just aiming. Disrespectful because you are ignoring all the experience and game sense high level players possess, reducing that to just aiming is simple outrageous. I have trained like 50+ players from low or middle level to high level and the difference between truly high level player and middle level player is much larger than difference between public player and low level competitive player. There are also lots of new viable strategies that any clan has used constantly. Also strategies aren’t about building orders but positioning your units. Building order is just small part of overall meaning of strategy in this game. We have been playing few weeks now after summer break and we already have a new meta strategy.
Well, my thoughts did not concern rookies and even public players with competitive players. But yeah, about this, that's right.
This leads me to believe you actually have not seen the team members list, and who is in charge making decisions.
They're the top players because they're good at playing the game; they can shoot well and they understand positioning, strategy, and how to counter their opponents. However, being at the top doesn't mean they know how to make a game. It's critical that people understand that game skill does not mean game design skill. Being skilled at a game doesn't mean that you can solve problems related to balance or see all of the implications of a change in a deeply complicated system. It doesn't mean you can tell whether your proposed change is consistent with the game's core elements or follows good design principles like ensuring that optimal play is fun. Game design is its own thing and becoming skilled at it takes a lot of time and experience. It doesn't mean being good at games, and some of the best game designers suck at their own games.
Basically what I mean is that people at the top are useful for their ability to push the game to its limits, not necessarily on how to 'fix' the balance. There are people who are able to provide good balance insight regardless of skill level, but they are generally much harder to find because it can be difficult to understand the entire impact of a change without knowing the upper limits of players.