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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    edited December 2013
    @steverock
    If you guys are using a deferred lighting pipeline ontop of Unity 4, does that mean that it's Spark's deferred lighting?

    Also, i know great performance and multiplatform are both goals, but does this mean that texture resolution will suffer? Or will you just scale it for low end PCs or tablets?
    I only ask because the majority of Unity games i have seen have been typically low resolution. I have no clue if high resolution textures are even possible to render in Unity. (Yes, i've played around with the Unity Heaven demo, but found the textures to be sub par in comparison to Spark's capabilities still)
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
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  • shriikeshriike Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184461Members Posts: 191 Fully active user
    @IronHorse Why do you have to scale it down for low end PCs? Can't you just set the graphics to low? Does it not work like that?
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  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer Posts: 3,912 admin
    edited December 2013
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @steverock
    If you guys are using a deferred lighting pipeline ontop of Unity 4, does that mean that it's Spark's deferred lighting?

    Also, i know great performance and multiplatform are both goals, but does this mean that texture resolution will suffer? Or will you just scale it for low end PCs or tablets?
    I only ask because the majority of Unity games i have seen have been typically low resolution. I have no clue if high resolution textures are even possible to render in Unity. (Yes, i've played around with the Unity Heaven demo, but found the textures to be sub par in comparison to Spark's capabilities still)

    Unity has its own deferred renderer. The issue is that it doesn't do semi-transparent objects so we have to use the forward renderer for those. Unity makes it quite easy to set this up.

    I don't know what the current plan is for setting texture resolution requirements, if there even is a firm plan yet, but, from memory, Unity supports importing texture maps up to 4096x4096. I believe it defaults to the max resolution being 1024x1024 and will auto-resize all imported textures accordingly, so it's possible that the projects you saw hadn't changed that setting.

    Unity supports setting a variety of visual quality levels on a per-platform basis and to an extent will handle a lot of that automatically (like automatically creating different resolution versions of materials), so we have a lot of options in that regard (see more here). But the focus right now is on making a great PC game.
    Tzudro
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    @Insane While gameplay is a very very very VERY big aspect I think the texture question was pretty good. Underwater games are rare as is, but underwater is utmost stunning.
    Having graphics to mimic that stunning is a big plus in a underwater game id say. :)
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  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Posts: 486 Advanced user
    Yes, textures should be able to just scale down for lower end graphics cards. I also implemented a texture streaming solution which seems to work so far, so hopefully that will get us good quality all around the world (with potential pop in artifacts)
    Tzudro
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    @insane Awesome thanks for the detailed answers! Had no idea Unity had so many levels for quality, good to hear. Ya the projects i've seen have definitely kept that default setting for texture resolutions.. such a shame for PC games to be limited by such a thing :)

    @steverock Cool! To cut down on the pixel area that gets popped in, have you considered using LOD when the object is outside of the texture streaming range, with just an averaged singular RGB color to represent the simple shape?
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Posts: 486 Advanced user
    The lowest level is practically a single color. Not sure if it would help a lot to avoid texture look ups completely? Do open world games do this?
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    I looked some places but cant find out what this game is about. Can any1 help?
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  • Maxx11_v2.0Maxx11_v2.0 Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172221Members Posts: 274
    Out of all my questions, the one Im mostly curious about is what the goal of the game will be? Or rather, will there even be one. Do the terms "win" or "beat the game" apply to Subnautica and will there be a failure state. Is it a game or an explorable virtual aquarium.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 3,787 admin
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  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Posts: 486 Advanced user
    Out of all my questions, the one Im mostly curious about is what the goal of the game will be? Or rather, will there even be one. Do the terms "win" or "beat the game" apply to Subnautica and will there be a failure state. Is it a game or an explorable virtual aquarium.

    I don't think we know for sure yet. But it won't be a purely aesthetic experience.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members Posts: 801 Advanced user
    Seems to me there's going to be SOME kind of combat? definitely some kind of danger otherwise half the "exploration" idea would be wasted. Imo :P

    And I definitely hope for Early Alpha.Beta :P
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Posts: 486 Advanced user
    Seldkam wrote: »
    Seems to me there's going to be SOME kind of combat? definitely some kind of danger otherwise half the "exploration" idea would be wasted. Imo :P

    And I definitely hope for Early Alpha.Beta :P

    Danger, yes. Have you seen that lava concept? :) and yes, we'll likely do early access.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    edited January 2014
    Is it possible to procedurally generate things on the fly?

    For example, procedurally generating terrain/creatures/etc. far outside of the players view distance. If that was possible, you would have unlimited exploration. (well maybe not because the game would still have to remember and save all the places you've been to.)

    If the map is procedurally generated during load, then you only have a set amount of space you can explore and you would eventually explore it all in short order. Unless UWE is able to generate incredible large maps n(say WoW size continents.)

    Or if both those require too much resources or have technical limitation, UWE could make it so that when you reach the edge of a map a load screen comes up to generate a new map. (or re-load a map if you've already been there to that location.)

    Say you can then go into a "world view" (think google earth) and see where you are located on the planet and which places you've explored or haven't explored and the world view map can be zoomed in/out or rotated like google earth.


    I guess this turned more into a suggestion than just a question.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members Posts: 801 Advanced user
    I'll check the Lava concept now ^^ and excellent, looking (cautiously!) forward to that.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    Res wrote: »
    Is it possible to procedurally generate things on the fly?

    For example, procedurally generating terrain/creatures/etc. far outside of the players view distance. If that was possible, you would have unlimited exploration. (well maybe not because the game would still have to remember and save all the places you've been to.)

    @Res This is how minecraft works, afaik. It's what I assumed to be the case here, too. Although it wouldn't be too much "outside of the players view distance", rather generating as you go.
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  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    edited January 2014
    Res wrote: »
    Is it possible to procedurally generate things on the fly?

    For example, procedurally generating terrain/creatures/etc. far outside of the players view distance. If that was possible, you would have unlimited exploration. (well maybe not because the game would still have to remember and save all the places you've been to.)

    @Res This is how minecraft works, afaik. It's what I assumed to be the case here, too. Although it wouldn't be too much "outside of the players view distance", rather generating as you go.


    I could have sworn minecraft was generated during map load (or if multiplayer, when the server creates the map.)

    edit: after looking it up , it does appear to generate terrain on the fly.. however, the minecraft map size is still limited. More limited than what I think a game , like subnautica, should be.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer Posts: 2,341 Advanced user
    Narfwak wrote: »
    Will there be Narfwhals with laser horns?

    no, but maybe sharknados:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2724064/
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  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Posts: 2,130 mod
    What about giant quids and mega sharks?!
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  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 616 Fully active user
    Mechano-piranha?

    (who doesn't like a good old thread derailment?)


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  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Posts: 486 Advanced user
    Res wrote: »
    Is it possible to procedurally generate things on the fly?

    For example, procedurally generating terrain/creatures/etc. far outside of the players view distance. If that was possible, you would have unlimited exploration. (well maybe not because the game would still have to remember and save all the places you've been to.)

    If the map is procedurally generated during load, then you only have a set amount of space you can explore and you would eventually explore it all in short order. Unless UWE is able to generate incredible large maps n(say WoW size continents.)

    Or if both those require too much resources or have technical limitation, UWE could make it so that when you reach the edge of a map a load screen comes up to generate a new map. (or re-load a map if you've already been there to that location.)

    Say you can then go into a "world view" (think google earth) and see where you are located on the planet and which places you've explored or haven't explored and the world view map can be zoomed in/out or rotated like google earth.


    I guess this turned more into a suggestion than just a question.

    These are all issues I'm actively trying to answer right now. Initially I thought we could gen everything once, but it's becoming clear that would take way too long (like 5+ minutes probably, on our target specs, and you'd probably run out of memory!!!). There are some cool things you could do if you did that, but we've decided that's not quite worth it. So, we're taking the Minecraft approach of generating things on the fly now. It's much more smoke and mirrors, but hey, this is a game, not a scientific simulation :)

    We'll only need the "load screen" if we can't do it fast enough, so that will probably depend on your computer. Like, if you are moving really fast and we haven't caught up yet with generation, then we'd force you to wait. But hopefully most of the time that won't happen.

    As for infinite world, I guess we'll see! It would take some more engineering work, and definitely some design work (how do you make things scale appropriately, etc.). I'm not personally convinced it's worth it - finite games like Fallout3 and Skyrim have PLENTY to do inside, and I never wished they were infinite. Terraria isn't infinite either, and it's just fine.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Technically minecraft has a limit to world size.

    And I'm excited that Terraria 2 will be infinite.
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  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    SteveRock wrote: »
    These are all issues I'm actively trying to answer right now. Initially I thought we could gen everything once, but it's becoming clear that would take way too long (like 5+ minutes probably, on our target specs, and you'd probably run out of memory!!!). There are some cool things you could do if you did that, but we've decided that's not quite worth it. So, we're taking the Minecraft approach of generating things on the fly now. It's much more smoke and mirrors, but hey, this is a game, not a scientific simulation :)

    We'll only need the "load screen" if we can't do it fast enough, so that will probably depend on your computer. Like, if you are moving really fast and we haven't caught up yet with generation, then we'd force you to wait. But hopefully most of the time that won't happen.

    Heh didn't realize it would take that long for map generation on load, but definitely can see why it would take that long. On the fly sounds good.
    SteveRock wrote: »
    As for infinite world, I guess we'll see! It would take some more engineering work, and definitely some design work (how do you make things scale appropriately, etc.). I'm not personally convinced it's worth it - finite games like Fallout3 and Skyrim have PLENTY to do inside, and I never wished they were infinite. Terraria isn't infinite either, and it's just fine.

    I'm not convinced infinite exploration would be all that great either, as you get no sense of progress in a game like this. However, I do think there should be a sufficiently large enough map size to allow for a month or months of exploration and there should be the map (like the google earth feature I mentioned) to show where you've been and where you havent' been, kind of like a fog-of-war in RTS games.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    Finite worlds always come with the problem of borders: How do you avoid invisible walls?
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  • SeldkamSeldkam Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members Posts: 801 Advanced user
    Pulling a minecraft would be pretty funny where if the player goes out too far the world gets ridiculous (random cliffs jutting straight up out of a completely flat piece of land and trees practically floating in midair etc.) I think it was because memory eventually got all used up and the game had to stop using certain parameters to lessen memory use? I could be completely wrong, but beside the horrid fps I thought it was hilarious.
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Posts: 486 Advanced user
    From what I hear, for minecraft, they tuned all the equations and algorithms to work well only so far out. Beyond that, they probably start breaking down and generating less than ideal landscapes.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    edited January 2014
    Finite worlds always come with the problem of borders: How do you avoid invisible walls?

    You make a round world instead of a flat map like I suggested...... problem solved... no borders.

    or flat map that loops back in on itself, which would be the same thing. You reach the edge of the map and then you are on the other side of the map. This has been around since the days of Pacman. However, you make it a seamless transition between the edges of the map and if there's a map view that shows where you are at, show it as a round world. This would give you a feeling of actually being on a round planet without actually producing a round world in a map editor.
  • SteveRockSteveRock Join Date: 2012-10-01 Member: 161215Members, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Posts: 486 Advanced user
    Res wrote: »
    Finite worlds always come with the problem of borders: How do you avoid invisible walls?

    You make a round world instead of a flat map like I suggested...... problem solved... no borders.

    or flat map that loops back in on itself, which would be the same thing. You reach the edge of the map and then you are on the other side of the map. This has been around since the days of Pacman. However, you make it a seamless transition between the edges of the map and if there's a map view that shows where you are at, show it as a round world. This would give you a feeling of actually being on a round planet without actually producing a round world in a map editor.

    I could see us going either way. I'm not too worried about borders - just have giant cliffs that go way above sea level. Wrap around would be cool, but then you need to make sure the edges match up some how. I suppose we could just make the edges like flat-barren land or something that would match up with anything... Yeah, I dunno. Not really swayed either way.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members Posts: 626
    edited January 2014
    SteveRock wrote: »
    I could see us going either way. I'm not too worried about borders - just have giant cliffs that go way above sea level. Wrap around would be cool, but then you need to make sure the edges match up some how. I suppose we could just make the edges like flat-barren land or something that would match up with anything... Yeah, I dunno. Not really swayed either way.


    Couldn't you say, copy/mirror the map at the edges to each other. So say, the west edge of the map is copied/mirrored to the east edge, so you wouldn't need flat edges. If that's technically feasible in a procedurally generated terrain..... I'm pretty sure in map editors for other games (well at least hammer since that's only one I have experience with,), you can copy/mirror like that and then put an invisible "portal" at the edges. Biggest problem would be when it comes to models/props.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    As far as map size, i would be OK with a limit on map size, but the ability to move to other maps.

    Say, once a player reaches a giant cliff face, they can enter a tunnel that will take them past the massive cliff face and into another large map. IDK, just a suggestion for limitlessness in a finite space
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