So uhh... Fade Vortex & Stab. They don't seem terribly useful.

IdlerayIdleray Join Date: 2012-10-04 Member: 161464Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 154 Advanced user
So apparently after you make the vortex, the first attack with Slash teleports you back.

This makes no sense... isn't the whole point of vortex to let you fight a bit and then switch to your GTFO button? Why would I want to TP home after the first attack? Am I using this ability right?


As for stab.... I don't understand why Blink is LOCKED OUT when you begin the motion.

It also does way too little damage and is just clunky in general.

160 is alot! You might say; but Stab is unlocked at Biomass level EIGHT, which is mid-late game, when it will no longer one-shot any marine, and the attack is clunky because in the late game you're facing jps and exos and Stab is strictly worse than default Swipe against both of those for different reasons (one's too fast, the other one you can't afford to stay still and channel a Stab against)

The way I see it, for Stab to be valuable, you have to have it unlocked early game, have any combination of Phantom, Celerity or Shadowstep, and the scripting ought to be reworked for it to be more user-friendly.
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Comments

  • ReekeReeke Join Date: 2003-11-28 Member: 23688Members Posts: 773 Fully active user
    You can use vortex to get behind marines. Place it, go elsewhere, then when marines move past that point hit your attack key to appear behind them.

    I just don't bother with stab. It's a late game ability when my fps drops too low to be able to make any real use of it.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    I believe Stab and Vortex have their uses in the right hands, however I purposefully avoid buying fade upgrades as kham because in the wrong hands they can be devastating to effective fade play. I highly doubt there are many if any players who would qualify as the "right hands" in pubs. If you're lucky I'll buy the upgrade right before I start massing whips.
  • LokeLoke Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 13988Members Posts: 637
    Vortex has its moments but I agree on Stab, just feels way to clunky to effectively use in combat. To be honest I'd rather see it work the same way as Focus did in NS1 (slow attack speed without the build up).
  • LokeLoke Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 13988Members Posts: 637
    I know this isn't exactly on topic, but I avoid Fades altogether and go for Lerk/Onos (mostly Lerk, depends on marine skill). Anyone else like me?

    Not altogether but I'm seeing myself choosing Lerk over Fade quite often nowadays. I just don't find it as enjoyable to go Fade anymore.
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  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 259 Fully active user
    Loke wrote: »
    I know this isn't exactly on topic, but I avoid Fades altogether and go for Lerk/Onos (mostly Lerk, depends on marine skill). Anyone else like me?

    Not altogether but I'm seeing myself choosing Lerk over Fade quite often nowadays. I just don't find it as enjoyable to go Fade anymore.

    Exactly like me. I used to play Fade in competitive matches back in Season 2, when Shadowstep+jump was the norm.

    b250 Fade was just ridiculously OP. Now it's just ridiculously unenjoyable. Not only that, but very limited in what you can do for the team. The fact that structure damage was lowered to be almost on par with the Gorge spit means it's very ineffective at killing structures. Every other lifeform can do that job just fine, some better than others. As far as I can tell, killing structures is far more important than killing marines in this game. So yeah, no matter how godly your fading skills are, you're still going to be less useful than, say, an average Lerk who prefers to bite extractors instead of distracting marines.

    Some competitive players say the Fade is fine now. I can't see how that can be true when you can spend 20 more res and get a lifeform that can almost end the game by itself given the opportunity, or spend 10 less res for a lifeform that can still destroy structures in addition to buffing your team and being reasonably effective at killing marines or at least keeping them distracted. If the objective of the nerfs were to prevent fadeballs, then they succeded.



    Back on topic: I think Vortex and Stab would be great if they weren't too expensive and clunky. Stab in particular comes too late to be effective, or even used at all.
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  • SanCoSanCo Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155744Members Posts: 139
    edited September 2013
    sotanaht wrote: »
    I believe Stab and Vortex have their uses in the right hands, however I purposefully avoid buying fade upgrades as kham because in the wrong hands they can be devastating to effective fade play. I highly doubt there are many if any players who would qualify as the "right hands" in pubs. If you're lucky I'll buy the upgrade right before I start massing whips.

    Evil circle, you dont go fade upgrade because ppl cant use it because there is no chance to learn. Its not like the people that cant learn how to use vortex reasonable well are effective fades anyway. If you know how to play a fade effectively you will figure out vortex fun resonably fast.
  • AchillesAchilles Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Members Posts: 73 Fully active user
    I've seen more fades miff it up with vortex and get killed than I've seen use it effectively. Had a game the other day where the poor fade just stopped and crouched in front of us marines, waiting for his vortex to happen which for some reason didn't fire (he may not have set it up correctly) but it was just sad lol.

    The only real use for Vortex is being extremely annoying, unless people figure out how to place it in the same room and keep attacking after they teleport? I'm sure there are other ways to use it that no one's caught on to yet. The comp players should figure it out soon enough.

    Stab, though, I agree with all of your points.
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members Posts: 150
    edited September 2013
    From what I've seen, Fades who use vortex/stab are effectively removing themselves from the game. I've seen players go Fade and rack up kills consistently, right up until they get vortex and start using it. At that point you can pretty much ignore them entirely.

    I have one idea that would certainly make things interesting... Change stab and make it do no damage, but instead teleport the Marine with the Fade to the vortex point. They could rename it pull or return, something along those lines.

    It would make both abilities useful. Marines would have a chance to kill the Fade after being teleported. (and then potentially be behind enemy lines and able to set up a ninja phase gate) and Fades would have a separate skill to teleport them back instead of having it linked to their attack.
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  • EmooEmoo Ibasa Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11198Members Posts: 535
    This was posted a while ago, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4FLODk5Ukc

    So that looks pretty cool
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  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    SanCo wrote: »
    sotanaht wrote: »
    I believe Stab and Vortex have their uses in the right hands, however I purposefully avoid buying fade upgrades as kham because in the wrong hands they can be devastating to effective fade play. I highly doubt there are many if any players who would qualify as the "right hands" in pubs. If you're lucky I'll buy the upgrade right before I start massing whips.

    Evil circle, you dont go fade upgrade because ppl cant use it because there is no chance to learn. Its not like the people that cant learn how to use vortex reasonable well are effective fades anyway. If you know how to play a fade effectively you will figure out vortex fun resonably fast.

    I'm not interested in making them better players, that's a long term commitment and I'm only playing a short term game. If I give them the rope, they'll just hang themselves with it, so I'm just being careful not to give them enough.

    Honestly though, even I can't figure out a way to use vortex to IMPROVE my combat effectiveness. If you throw it down around a corner it might help your survival but it significantly decreases your ability to actually kill anything, and it tempts certain players into entering more dangerous areas because they think the vortex will save them.
  • ChizzlerChizzler Join Date: 2013-01-04 Member: 177532Members Posts: 234 Fully active user
    MoFo wrote: »
    From what I've seen, Fades who use vortex/stab are effectively removing themselves from the game. I've seen players go Fade and rack up kills consistently, right up until they get vortex and start using it. At that point you can pretty much ignore them entirely.

    I have one idea that would certainly make things interesting... Change stab and make it do no damage, but instead teleport the Marine with the Fade to the vortex point. They could rename it pull or return, something along those lines.

    It would make both abilities useful. Marines would have a chance to kill the Fade after being teleported. (and then potentially be behind enemy lines and able to set up a ninja phase gate) and Fades would have a separate skill to teleport them back instead of having it linked to their attack.

    Or more likely, you'd have fades dropping marines into Lava/death traps constantly.
    Roobubba
  • AchillesAchilles Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Members Posts: 73 Fully active user
    Emoo wrote: »
    This was posted a while ago, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4FLODk5Ukc

    So that looks pretty cool

    Nice! That's exactly what I meant.. I knew there had to be some clever girls out there terrorizing teams with this. Did the devs even anticipate fades would use it this way? I'm sure they probably thought about it... I wonder how much it will change things after catching on with the majority of fade players?

  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    Yeah that's the one I saw. The thread it was in had a lot of debate as to whether or not Comp players would actually benefit from attempting that, or if the marines would simply figure out to shoot at the vortex. In Pubs it would obviously dominate just like in the video, but the level of skill required to pull it off suggests a fade that would still be dominating a pub without it.
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members Posts: 955 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    I know this isn't exactly on topic, but I avoid Fades altogether and go for Lerk/Onos (mostly Lerk, depends on marine skill). Anyone else like me?
    I went from fading most games and lerking under very specific circumstances where we needed the early pressure to almost the opposite, lerking every game unless the marines have a particularly strong start and I don't trust my team to be able to support me enough to do anything useful as a lerk. Literally the only thing the fade has that I want over the lerk is that extra HP.

    If Vortex didn't have a huge glowing "I AM GOING TO TELEPORT HERE GUYS" indicator it would be a lot more useful.
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members Posts: 150
    edited September 2013
    Chizzler wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    From what I've seen, Fades who use vortex/stab are effectively removing themselves from the game. I've seen players go Fade and rack up kills consistently, right up until they get vortex and start using it. At that point you can pretty much ignore them entirely.

    I have one idea that would certainly make things interesting... Change stab and make it do no damage, but instead teleport the Marine with the Fade to the vortex point. They could rename it pull or return, something along those lines.

    It would make both abilities useful. Marines would have a chance to kill the Fade after being teleported. (and then potentially be behind enemy lines and able to set up a ninja phase gate) and Fades would have a separate skill to teleport them back instead of having it linked to their attack.

    Or more likely, you'd have fades dropping marines into Lava/death traps constantly.

    I don't see how, it would teleport the Fade and Marine to the same spot, so they'd be killing themselves in the process. I doubt many players would go Fade just to kamikaze for 1 Marine kill.



  • ChizzlerChizzler Join Date: 2013-01-04 Member: 177532Members Posts: 234 Fully active user
    MoFo wrote: »
    Chizzler wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    From what I've seen, Fades who use vortex/stab are effectively removing themselves from the game. I've seen players go Fade and rack up kills consistently, right up until they get vortex and start using it. At that point you can pretty much ignore them entirely.

    I have one idea that would certainly make things interesting... Change stab and make it do no damage, but instead teleport the Marine with the Fade to the vortex point. They could rename it pull or return, something along those lines.

    It would make both abilities useful. Marines would have a chance to kill the Fade after being teleported. (and then potentially be behind enemy lines and able to set up a ninja phase gate) and Fades would have a separate skill to teleport them back instead of having it linked to their attack.

    Or more likely, you'd have fades dropping marines into Lava/death traps constantly.

    I don't see how, and they'd be killing themselves in the process anyway. I doubt many players would go Fade just to kamikaze for 1 Marine kill.


    No, the fade can use blink to escape. the marine would drop to his/her death before they even realized what happened.
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members Posts: 150
    Chizzler wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    Chizzler wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    From what I've seen, Fades who use vortex/stab are effectively removing themselves from the game. I've seen players go Fade and rack up kills consistently, right up until they get vortex and start using it. At that point you can pretty much ignore them entirely.

    I have one idea that would certainly make things interesting... Change stab and make it do no damage, but instead teleport the Marine with the Fade to the vortex point. They could rename it pull or return, something along those lines.

    It would make both abilities useful. Marines would have a chance to kill the Fade after being teleported. (and then potentially be behind enemy lines and able to set up a ninja phase gate) and Fades would have a separate skill to teleport them back instead of having it linked to their attack.

    Or more likely, you'd have fades dropping marines into Lava/death traps constantly.

    I don't see how, and they'd be killing themselves in the process anyway. I doubt many players would go Fade just to kamikaze for 1 Marine kill.


    No, the fade can use blink to escape. the marine would drop to his/her death before they even realized what happened.

    Damn, didn't think of that.

    Maybe prevent the Fade from using blink for 1-2 seconds after teleporting (just long enough to ensure they'd fall to death with the Marine) - That would also give the Marine a slightly better chance to win the battle.

    I dunno, it just sounds like it would be a neat gameplay mechanic.



  • KwisatzHaderachKwisatzHaderach Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143872Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 368 Fully active user
    Don't tell me marines are unable to see the placed Vortex! I always (like the two times I got to play with it) avoided placing the Vortex anywhere where marines could see it, because I was afraid of being shot down by a camping shotty marine :))
  • iClearSkiesiClearSkies Join Date: 2012-09-22 Member: 160359Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 37 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    Something that I have constantly seen throughout the NS game development its the nerfing of the Fade. The fade has always been nerfed to a great extent because to those players who are "Pro-Fade" are basically in a sense of the word GOD. I was very excited when the original Fade blink was brought back to NS2 but at the same time a few updates later fade blink was nerfed back down to the "Fade gets speed hacks and looks like mew-two" ability instead of the teleporting ninja ability. the NS staff attempted to counter this with making vortex a recall button but like the video posted above with good macroing and finesse the same problem still exists but in a different form.

    My only solution to really fix the fade is to bring back the CORE Fade Ideals:

    Weapon 1 - Swipe
    Weapon 2 - Metabolize (meditate restoring Health and minor Adren at a fixed percentage
    Weapon 3 - Stab (NS2) I think this is an amazing idea and I love it versus the original Acid rocket upgrade from NS1

    Shift ability - Fade Shift (NS2) Another Great idea but was nerfed and removed until late play. this makes fades slower in a sense but In my opinion I never really knew why it was removed other then "It was unbalanced cause fades didn't need blink" well I think it should just be re-looked at to make Shift a more short range ability versus blink . Shift animations should be like your seeing multiple shadow copies of the fade moving in short 3-4 foot bursts to confuse a solo enemy or a slow reacting enemy.

    Blink: the original long range travel concept of : ~~~~~~~Invisible teleporting tunnel (maybe invisible animation or distorted?)~~~~~~~ to sneak around marine defenses cause that's what fades are for, killing personnel where they think their safe not to be used as a evolved sulk. Blink in a sense is like a teleporting ability to move yourself to another section of the room where you aim near instantaneously versus walking or shifting to avoid fire.
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  • ComputronComputron Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185665Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 11 Fully active user
    Don't tell me marines are unable to see the placed Vortex! I always (like the two times I got to play with it) avoided placing the Vortex anywhere where marines could see it, because I was afraid of being shot down by a camping shotty marine :))

    Is this true? The marines can't see the vortex?
  • Ra1nRa1n Join Date: 2004-02-22 Member: 26798Members Posts: 33
    maybe it is a ping thing but i'm having a hard time hitting anything with a vortex/swipe or stab combo, it's like 1 in 3 times that i actually see damage numbers show up and even then i have to almost touch the marine. to me it seems i get ported before the hit registers. the result of this is that i pretty much only go fade if the alien team dominates the round at the moment. to me fade is basically a bigger skulk, not really game changing like a well played gorge, lerk or onos can be. weak against marine groups or as area denial, weak as base destroyer, a good rambo marine killer but even that becomes dangerous once marines get uprades rolling, a few missed swipes or another rine coming around the corner can force a retreat or make short work of that res.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,037
    Ra1n wrote: »
    maybe it is a ping thing but i'm having a hard time hitting anything with a vortex/swipe or stab combo, it's like 1 in 3 times that i actually see damage numbers show up and even then i have to almost touch the marine. to me it seems i get ported before the hit registers. the result of this is that i pretty much only go fade if the alien team dominates the round at the moment. to me fade is basically a bigger skulk, not really game changing like a well played gorge, lerk or onos can be. weak against marine groups or as area denial, weak as base destroyer, a good rambo marine killer but even that becomes dangerous once marines get uprades rolling, a few missed swipes or another rine coming around the corner can force a retreat or make short work of that res.

    One thing to keep in mind is that the damage numbers have changed a bit in this current build, instead of showing up on your screen always they show up above the target that you hit... so sometimes if you vortex away right after a hit it can be hard to see the damage numbers. The damage numbers are apparently going to switch back to the old style in the next patch.
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,690 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    Vortex is a cool idea but it's too difficult to use IMO. The stuff you see in trick videos is not practical for average players in real situations. The ability needs to be streamlined somehow. For example, change it to Vortex Strike - a swipe attack that automatically teleports you to where you were 1 second ago when you use it. All it does is make it a one-step process instead of two-step, but it would make all the difference in usability.
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  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    I think there's potential for the vortex mechanic, but it suffers from a high energy cost. It would also be more useful if you would keep your momentum coming out of the portal instead of dropping dead.
    Okxyd
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    Zek wrote: »
    Vortex is a cool idea but it's too difficult to use IMO. The stuff you see in trick videos is not practical for average players in real situations. The ability needs to be streamlined somehow. For example, change it to Vortex Strike - a swipe attack that automatically teleports you to where you were 1 second ago when you use it. All it does is make it a one-step process instead of two-step, but it would make all the difference in usability.

    Why would we need to dumb a mechanic down when it's not crucial for being an effective fade? Nobody's going to quit playing the fade because they can't utilise something like vortex to a maximum, so why should we take the satisfaction and advantage away from those who can? Sounds like a terrible idea.

  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I have had huge problems using vortex nicely also.
    Atm for me it is to get a swipe or stab in on a marine in a exo camp and then be out harms way before the exo can finish me.. I cant even remotely do the combat vortex I see folk use. :p


    Perhaps it would be nice if we could use blink while stabbing? As when the ability is activated?
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  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 2,416 mod
    Only thing I use vortex for is attacking exos with lots of nearby marines. Vortex around safe corner + stab exo & repeat if possible.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,037
    Does anyone else think Fades look really funny in third person when they stab?
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,690 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    Therius wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    Vortex is a cool idea but it's too difficult to use IMO. The stuff you see in trick videos is not practical for average players in real situations. The ability needs to be streamlined somehow. For example, change it to Vortex Strike - a swipe attack that automatically teleports you to where you were 1 second ago when you use it. All it does is make it a one-step process instead of two-step, but it would make all the difference in usability.

    Why would we need to dumb a mechanic down when it's not crucial for being an effective fade? Nobody's going to quit playing the fade because they can't utilise something like vortex to a maximum, so why should we take the satisfaction and advantage away from those who can? Sounds like a terrible idea.

    Every ability should be crucial. Vortex deserves better than just being a way for top tier players to show off. More importantly, the current implementation often tricks players into wasting their time with ineffective poking tactics, making them a liability to the team.
    das0308AurOn2
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