The game is slowly dying, what do you think is the reason?

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Comments

  • BacillusBacillus Members Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    king_yo wrote: »
    I have never understood why there is so many people in this game who buys it and expects it to be so EASY right off the bat. I mean this isn't angry bird nor pong right? This is a complex game, mix of rts/fps with 2 sides with really different gameplay. And then when they aren't willing to learn it, they just blame people who did and then blame the devs and ask them to dumb down the game.

    The first time you played chess and got crushed by an experienced player, did you cry and ask him to change the rules and dumb it down until it became checkers because it's easier ? This is exactly how it looks like to me. If you can't or aren't willing to learn the game it's fine, but why should we step down to your level ?
    I think this one boils down to the thingy about content I've been so eager to bring up whenever possible.

    Chess is hard, but it has established a reputation of being an awesome and deep game. There are books written about it and the internet is full off guides and analysis.

    Dota 2 is really brutal sometimes, but the game itself is filled with information, the competitive play has great visibility and the casters are the best in any esport community. There are guides everywhere too.

    NS2 has nothing of it. The guides are out of date and the comp scene has only some visibility with very limited spectator possibilities. If it wasn't for the NS1, I'm not sure if you'd be willing to give NS2 a chance. At least I probably wouldn't. A game that isn't easy right off the bat needs to talk about why it's worth learning and how you get to the point where it gets awesome.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NYMembers, Constellation Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Posts: 1,481 Advanced user
    Bacillus wrote: »
    king_yo wrote: »
    I have never understood why there is so many people in this game who buys it and expects it to be so EASY right off the bat. I mean this isn't angry bird nor pong right? This is a complex game, mix of rts/fps with 2 sides with really different gameplay. And then when they aren't willing to learn it, they just blame people who did and then blame the devs and ask them to dumb down the game.

    The first time you played chess and got crushed by an experienced player, did you cry and ask him to change the rules and dumb it down until it became checkers because it's easier ? This is exactly how it looks like to me. If you can't or aren't willing to learn the game it's fine, but why should we step down to your level ?
    I think this one boils down to the thingy about content I've been so eager to bring up whenever possible.

    Chess is hard, but it has established a reputation of being an awesome and deep game. There are books written about it and the internet is full off guides and analysis.

    Dota 2 is really brutal sometimes, but the game itself is filled with information, the competitive play has great visibility and the casters are the best in any esport community. There are guides everywhere too.

    NS2 has nothing of it. The guides are out of date and the comp scene has only some visibility with very limited spectator possibilities. If it wasn't for the NS1, I'm not sure if you'd be willing to give NS2 a chance. At least I probably wouldn't. A game that isn't easy right off the bat needs to talk about why it's worth learning and how you get to the point where it gets awesome.

    I'd really like to see a revamp of the main menu, ala Dota 2. I don't play dota but when I bootes it up obce I loved the menu, how it shows competition straight off.

    If the competitve community jad more ways to make itself transparent, I think that would foster interest and relievw players of some frustration public games due to higher skilled players. It doesn't help stacking but it's not like you always get good teams in a pick up game of basketball. Can't even get full teams for baseball these days.

    With twitch.tv the way it is. There is no reason video isnt integrated in the ns2 main menu. No reason for all the community tutorial videos to be hidden in the forums somewhere.

    This just boils down to UWE saying how important modding and community content is but then ignoring any way to reward contributers
    mattji104
  • allbusinessallbusiness Members Join Date: 2013-07-16 Member: 186160Posts: 6
    Neoken wrote: »

    Why does a team based game need to have a high individual skill cap? It makes no sense at all. NS2 is based off of outdated twitch shooter mechanics. Those days are long gone, and no one is interested in a game like that. That's why NS1/NS2 never took off; the game is already complex as it is to a new player, especially when it comes to properly commanding. Then on top of having to learn what does what, how to counter certain things, etc. then you have to deal with the fact that the absurdly high individual skill cap in the game. Sure, maybe diehard hardcore video gamers like it, but a large portion of the gaming community does not.

    If you want the game to succeed, you have to give ground somewhere. Every single successful competitive game today allows lesser skilled players to win against higher skilled players. In SC2, you can be mechanically strong as you want, but if someone simply outsmarts you with a better build, they can have inferior mechanics and still beat you. In League of Legends,

    Matchmaking doesn't solve the problem. It's too easy for a competitive player/high level pub player to go into a community server and wreck shop. You would have to make matchmaking actually the primary way of playing games, which is not something that is easy to do in a game like this where community servers are always far more prevalent. Sorry to say it, but NS is already complicated as it is for a new player, adding an extra layer of high skill cap on top of everything only discourages them further as they become more and more frustrated.

    It makes no sense to say a team based game can't have a high skill ceiling. Those two are not mutually exclusive. It's like saying every football player should have to wear a fatsuit in order to drag everyone down to thesame level, because football is a team game and people who are excelling through their individual skillset are detrimental to the game. If you'd let players like Messi and Ronaldo do their thing unrestricted, they'd just ruin it for everyone else, right? And who'd want to watch that?

    No, there are plenty of popular games out there with high skill ceilings. You just need to take some measures to deal with the inevitable skill disparity. One crucial thing is accessibility, giving new players the tools to quickly learn and improve. Another is making sure that new/casual players aren't repeatedly pit against veterans/pros in unbalanced matchups. The most common way is to deal with this is to divide the playerbase based on their skill levels.

    Look at SCII and it's ranking system for instance. People can have fun, win some, lose some, regardless of their actual skill level, because they're always pit against players of a similar level. And if they improve significantly, start beating up the players in their league, they are moved up the ladder. It's the perfect example.

    So if one could find a way to make sure the overall skill level of both alien and marine teams are somewhat equal to each other, everyone in that game is gonna have a better time. Matchmaking service would help, as would some form of randomisation option based on certain "skill parameters". I think the latter is a more realistic option though.




    The most popular team based competitive games today are not 'high skill' games. DotA2/LoL (both which I play at very high levels, page 1 MMR in DotA 2 and Diamond 1 in League) are not 'skill based' games they are knowledge/experience based games. Same with the most popular team based shooters. The reason why people enjoy these games is because one player cannot literally go and carry his team in either of those games; you are only as strong as your weakest link. The reason why people stop playing NS1/NS2 is because someone can go Fade and just literally go roflstomp pubs single handily with almost no help from his team, and the only way for him to die is to literally be stupid and just walk into multiple exos or eat 3 pointblank shotgun blasts to the face.

    Thinking that matchmaking will do anything is silly; it's the fact that NS2 is still based on silly ass mechanics from the Quake era where movement/twitch skills rule supreme. There's a reason why Quake died out and CS took over; it's because CS doesn't allow a player to single handily ruin the game for everyone else.

    _Necro_
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Posts: 614 Advanced user
    Thinking that matchmaking will do anything is silly; it's the fact that NS2 is still based on silly ass mechanics from the Quake era where movement/twitch skills rule supreme. There's a reason why Quake died out and CS took over; it's because CS doesn't allow a player to single handily ruin the game for everyone else.
    I don't buy this. QL has movement skills. Its not HLDM:AG but its not CS either. I can go play QL against players of my own skill. No problem. No "ruined" games. I can also go play against the better players, and yeah good game. I'm not complaining. They have tracked skill, ranked servers and it works. Just go check it out, if you don't believe me.

    I cannot speak for Q3, but there are many reasons why Quake would be dead: a) CS and other games had public appeal, and momentum (if someone sold CS know, do you think it would become the top game?) b) The graphics suck for modern games c) Deathmatch does not have public sex appeal. Quake takes practice to start to appreciate it, NS is fun out of the box. I don't see how they could ever repackage Quake series game and sell it on modern market.

    Movement and twitch skills are the very reason NS1 was so awesome. I used to play NS1 and NS2 at the same time, and the difference was night and day. While NS1 was something like this, NS2 was like "zZzZzz". A lot of NS1 competitive just made a decision not to play NS2 because it wasn't fun (enough). And neither was TF2 (to anyone who suggested that). I don't want to put this as a stab to UWE since I know they are between rock and a hard place, but movement was one of the top reasons NS1 lasted so long, delivering endless amounts of challenging games and gameplay.

    There was a lot of stacking NS1 too, way too much. And yes I think it contributed to the ultimate demise of the game, but I think it would have died a lot faster if the devs had started cutting bhop or nerfed other movements, instead of looking ways to address the stacking issue.

    Don't hate movement bro.

    p.s. If NS2 wants to go totally pro, they could implement Bayesian learning based skill tracking system developed by Microsoft for Xbox (here in python). It converges better to accurate skill level than plain ELO.
    ENSL Head Admin 2006-2012
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    Neoken wrote: »

    Why does a team based game need to have a high individual skill cap? It makes no sense at all. NS2 is based off of outdated twitch shooter mechanics. Those days are long gone, and no one is interested in a game like that. That's why NS1/NS2 never took off; the game is already complex as it is to a new player, especially when it comes to properly commanding. Then on top of having to learn what does what, how to counter certain things, etc. then you have to deal with the fact that the absurdly high individual skill cap in the game. Sure, maybe diehard hardcore video gamers like it, but a large portion of the gaming community does not.

    If you want the game to succeed, you have to give ground somewhere. Every single successful competitive game today allows lesser skilled players to win against higher skilled players. In SC2, you can be mechanically strong as you want, but if someone simply outsmarts you with a better build, they can have inferior mechanics and still beat you. In League of Legends,

    Matchmaking doesn't solve the problem. It's too easy for a competitive player/high level pub player to go into a community server and wreck shop. You would have to make matchmaking actually the primary way of playing games, which is not something that is easy to do in a game like this where community servers are always far more prevalent. Sorry to say it, but NS is already complicated as it is for a new player, adding an extra layer of high skill cap on top of everything only discourages them further as they become more and more frustrated.

    It makes no sense to say a team based game can't have a high skill ceiling. Those two are not mutually exclusive. It's like saying every football player should have to wear a fatsuit in order to drag everyone down to thesame level, because football is a team game and people who are excelling through their individual skillset are detrimental to the game. If you'd let players like Messi and Ronaldo do their thing unrestricted, they'd just ruin it for everyone else, right? And who'd want to watch that?

    No, there are plenty of popular games out there with high skill ceilings. You just need to take some measures to deal with the inevitable skill disparity. One crucial thing is accessibility, giving new players the tools to quickly learn and improve. Another is making sure that new/casual players aren't repeatedly pit against veterans/pros in unbalanced matchups. The most common way is to deal with this is to divide the playerbase based on their skill levels.

    Look at SCII and it's ranking system for instance. People can have fun, win some, lose some, regardless of their actual skill level, because they're always pit against players of a similar level. And if they improve significantly, start beating up the players in their league, they are moved up the ladder. It's the perfect example.

    So if one could find a way to make sure the overall skill level of both alien and marine teams are somewhat equal to each other, everyone in that game is gonna have a better time. Matchmaking service would help, as would some form of randomisation option based on certain "skill parameters". I think the latter is a more realistic option though.




    The most popular team based competitive games today are not 'high skill' games. DotA2/LoL (both which I play at very high levels, page 1 MMR in DotA 2 and Diamond 1 in League) are not 'skill based' games they are knowledge/experience based games. Same with the most popular team based shooters. The reason why people enjoy these games is because one player cannot literally go and carry his team in either of those games; you are only as strong as your weakest link. The reason why people stop playing NS1/NS2 is because someone can go Fade and just literally go roflstomp pubs single handily with almost no help from his team, and the only way for him to die is to literally be stupid and just walk into multiple exos or eat 3 pointblank shotgun blasts to the face.

    Thinking that matchmaking will do anything is silly; it's the fact that NS2 is still based on silly ass mechanics from the Quake era where movement/twitch skills rule supreme. There's a reason why Quake died out and CS took over; it's because CS doesn't allow a player to single handily ruin the game for everyone else.

    Don't kid yourself. A CS pro would stomp all over the average pub server. It's just less common to encounter highly skilled players on CS pubs in comparison to NS2 because CS has a much larger playerbase.

    But you are right, most people don't enjoy it when a person totally destroys their team, which is why a method of segregating players based on their skill levels can help. I don't know why you're trying to claim otherwise. The merit of a matchmaking device is so obvious. Equally balanced teams make for much more enjoyable experiences.

    The movement/shooter mechanics also have nothing to do with this discussion. If you don't like them, then play a different game. Don't try to use them as an argument against any form of matchmaking, that's just silly.
    JirikiRoobubba
  • bizbiz Members Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Posts: 415 Fully active user
    edited July 2013
    Jiriki wrote: »
    Thinking that matchmaking will do anything is silly; it's the fact that NS2 is still based on silly ass mechanics from the Quake era where movement/twitch skills rule supreme. There's a reason why Quake died out and CS took over; it's because CS doesn't allow a player to single handily ruin the game for everyone else.
    I don't buy this. QL has movement skills. Its not HLDM:AG but its not CS either. I can go play QL against players of my own skill. No problem. No "ruined" games. I can also go play against the better players, and yeah good game. I'm not complaining. They have tracked skill, ranked servers and it works. Just go check it out, if you don't believe me.

    I cannot speak for Q3, but there are many reasons why Quake would be dead: a) CS and other games had public appeal, and momentum (if someone sold CS know, do you think it would become the top game?) b) The graphics suck for modern games c) Deathmatch does not have public sex appeal. Quake takes practice to start to appreciate it, NS is fun out of the box. I don't see how they could ever repackage Quake series game and sell it on modern market.

    Movement and twitch skills are the very reason NS1 was so awesome. I used to play NS1 and NS2 at the same time, and the difference was night and day. While NS1 was something like this, NS2 was like "zZzZzz". A lot of NS1 competitive just made a decision not to play NS2 because it wasn't fun (enough). And neither was TF2 (to anyone who suggested that). I don't want to put this as a stab to UWE since I know they are between rock and a hard place, but movement was one of the top reasons NS1 lasted so long, delivering endless amounts of challenging games and gameplay.

    There was a lot of stacking NS1 too, way too much. And yes I think it contributed to the ultimate demise of the game, but I think it would have died a lot faster if the devs had started cutting bhop or nerfed other movements, instead of looking ways to address the stacking issue.

    Don't hate movement bro.

    p.s. If NS2 wants to go totally pro, they could implement Bayesian learning based skill tracking system developed by Microsoft for Xbox (here in python). It converges better to accurate skill level than plain ELO.

    Quake has shuffle by skill level as the default way to balance teams and everyone does it

    but if you take out Clan Arena (which isn't real Quake), then the game is effectively dead in NA outside of some high-skill players dueling or some casual FFAs
    calling Clan Arena Quake is like calling combat NS

    TDM never ever caught on because it is way too skill-based. it allows the team that pulls ahead to pull further and further ahead as they fight with better guns and more armor
    even if the skill difference was small, the final score would be something like 150-30. that logic extends to the other modes to a lesser extent

    the reason CS was popular is that it's a game about a single skill (aiming) that is executed well (due to the Quake engine)
    Quake is more of a strategy game where you have to time items, manage resources, and do a lot more predicting/planning/calculating. the movement is fast and the weapons aren't all the same hitscan assualt rifle

    Quake requires thinking. thinking is hard. let's play CS/TF2/Cod instead
    RTS requires thinking. thinking is hard. let's play Dota/LoL/Dota2 instead

    most of NS2's problems come from too many good players being on the same team, not just 1 player dominating
    matchmaking works so that each team should have the same amount of good players

    and yes those 0.1% of players who can fade amazingly well will be tricky to handle, but that's not a common problem
    the problem is decent players playing fade well because there are no decent players on the marine side
    _Necro_
  • FrankerZFrankerZ Members Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151627Posts: 163 Advanced user
    frantix wrote: »
    FrankerZ wrote: »
    nobody will play match making if its optional

    I would. And many others too I think.

    well ya, but i dont think we could get the "ball rolling" if you know what i mean, i think the more we can incentivise ppl to use it the better.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Members Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Posts: 1,171 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    Wooh Double post, why is there no option to delete your posts?
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Members Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Posts: 1,171 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    biz wrote: »
    RTS requires thinking. thinking is hard. let's play Dota/LoL/Dota2 instead

    Get off your high horse before you make a fool of yourself. More so than you have already done with the above comment that is.
    AWhite wrote: »
    This is a niche game. It will always have a relatively small dedicated community, that is NOT a bad thing.

    NS2 requires 12-18 players who; 1) speak the same language 2) know the ins and outs of a complex game 3) communicate and work together.

    Newsflash: humans are bad at these things.


    That said, devs really need to do a useability pass and clean up all the tooltips and pract. mode stuff to clean up the lies.

    Dont flatter yourself, the game is not that complicated compared to many others. I do agree that it really needs a decent tutorial or a UI that isnt crap at being informative or at least an update to the damn wiki, its shameful for this day and age when even games released in the 90s have better wikis than the ns2 wiki. It also amazes/amuses me (but not really) that you can claim #3 on and while surrounded by the products of thousands of years of human society and cooperation.

    I will toss in for ns1 having a very different (read faster and deadlier) feel than ns2 despite being very similar in overall design. Skulks for example felt hella scary, regardless of whether you or your enemy were the ones playing them.

    As for balance, servers where random teams was enforced/voted in with regularity have consistently provided longer, more involved and more balanced games in my personal experience.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    In NS2, I usually went fade (which is broken now) and was good at it. Now, going on the alien team almost always is a loss.

    It would be very good (both for us players and the developers themselves) if UWE devs would comment on this issue.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    Honestly, I just want to play the NS2 that was fun before 250 ruined the game because I dont play this wreck in it's current state.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • PariahDogPariahDog Members Join Date: 2013-07-15 Member: 186114Posts: 1
    Well folks are tap-dancing (either knowingly or not) around the issue on why this game cannot retain more than a handful of players so I'll come out and drop my two cents so you can ignore it since I registered just to post this and you can go back into your "Nah, its totally this brah we fix this and we'll totally be the next CoD!"

    You've put the cart before the horse. You're trying to build the game to be an E-sport before trying to make it enjoyable. This is like trying to follow a formula to make art. The game needs to be fun and enjoyable at the most basic level before you attract enough people to make the e-sport idea viable.
    Reshakenspit[AwE]Sentinel_Necro_
  • ResRes Members Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Posts: 626
    PariahDog wrote: »
    Well folks are tap-dancing (either knowingly or not) around the issue on why this game cannot retain more than a handful of players so I'll come out and drop my two cents so you can ignore it since I registered just to post this and you can go back into your "Nah, its totally this brah we fix this and we'll totally be the next CoD!"

    You've put the cart before the horse. You're trying to build the game to be an E-sport before trying to make it enjoyable. This is like trying to follow a formula to make art. The game needs to be fun and enjoyable at the most basic level before you attract enough people to make the e-sport idea viable.

    I think the devs thought that the e-sport aspect of the game is what would draw in the players...... and it is just simply not the case on how you bring in and retain players, a lot of whom don't care that much about the comp scene as the largest demographic of games is the casual player.

    hakenspit
  • ScatterScatter Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Posts: 635 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    Res wrote: »
    I think the devs thought that the e-sport aspect of the game is what would draw in the players...... and it is just simply not the case on how you bring in and retain players, a lot of whom don't care that much about the comp scene as the largest demographic of games is the casual player.

    As I said before the game tried to occupy a middle ground and was neither a good casual game nor a good comp game. You actually think comp players in this game think its a good comp game even in 250 ?

    Stop trying to pin the failings of this game on some imagined catering to the comp scene, although if you did that you may not have much else to talk about on these forums.

    [Deleted User]HamletJekt
  • ResRes Members Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Posts: 626
    edited July 2013
    Scatter wrote: »
    Stop trying to pin the failings of this game on some imagined catering to the comp scene, although if you did that you may not have much else to talk about on these forums.

    Actually, I can, because many of the changes they made were things the comp players/veterans argued over. Next thing you know the powernode mechanic will be completely removed.

    The main menu screen being blasted with tweets about comp scene matches is annoying enough.
  • hakenspithakenspit Members Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Posts: 944
    Res wrote: »
    PariahDog wrote: »
    Well folks are tap-dancing (either knowingly or not) around the issue on why this game cannot retain more than a handful of players so I'll come out and drop my two cents so you can ignore it since I registered just to post this and you can go back into your "Nah, its totally this brah we fix this and we'll totally be the next CoD!"

    You've put the cart before the horse. You're trying to build the game to be an E-sport before trying to make it enjoyable. This is like trying to follow a formula to make art. The game needs to be fun and enjoyable at the most basic level before you attract enough people to make the e-sport idea viable.

    I think the devs thought that the e-sport aspect of the game is what would draw in the players...... and it is just simply not the case on how you bring in and retain players, a lot of whom don't care that much about the comp scene as the largest demographic of games is the casual player.

    Completely agree with this sentiment, sadly the fun to play side of things has never been a focus.
    Casual players opinion of things not being fun was drowned out and pretty much ignored.

    There has been no middle ground occupation (at least not in practice), the game has continually gotten harder and harder for new/casual players to pick up.

    Sadly NS2 seems to be headed down the path NS1 did...just a lot quicker.

  • bizbiz Members Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Posts: 415 Fully active user
    esport on spark engine?

    you guys are joking right?
  • ScatterScatter Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Posts: 635 Advanced user
    Res wrote: »

    Actually, I can, because many of the changes they made were things the comp players/veterans argued over. Next thing you know the powernode mechanic will be completely removed.

    Game is marginally different than it was at release. Same as how a government decides over various things without your consultation, because they are more informed about the issues than the general pleb.

    The main menu screen being blasted with tweets about comp scene matches is annoying enough.

    ie you have a hatred towards competitive play in general.

    hakenspit wrote: »

    Completely agree with this sentiment, sadly the fun to play side of things has never been a focus.
    Casual players opinion of things not being fun was drowned out and pretty much ignored.

    There has been no middle ground occupation (at least not in practice), the game has continually gotten harder and harder for new/casual players to pick up.

    Sadly NS2 seems to be headed down the path NS1 did...just a lot quicker.

    The game isn't as complex as you make it and people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Perhaps this is just you projecting your general ability as a human on the community at large, which seems a common theme for people who like to suffer in company. With decent tutorials and a reasonable grouping of skill levels there wouldn't have been a problem, which as I said is a consequence of UWE failing to implement basic housekeeping features that every other game has.

    Anyway enough responding to you two, you suck the life out of everything you approach.
  • hakenspithakenspit Members Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Posts: 944
    Scatter wrote: »
    Res wrote: »

    Actually, I can, because many of the changes they made were things the comp players/veterans argued over. Next thing you know the powernode mechanic will be completely removed.

    Game is marginally different than it was at release. Same as how a government decides over various things without your consultation, because they are more informed about the issues than the general pleb.

    The main menu screen being blasted with tweets about comp scene matches is annoying enough.

    ie you have a hatred towards competitive play in general.

    hakenspit wrote: »

    Completely agree with this sentiment, sadly the fun to play side of things has never been a focus.
    Casual players opinion of things not being fun was drowned out and pretty much ignored.

    There has been no middle ground occupation (at least not in practice), the game has continually gotten harder and harder for new/casual players to pick up.

    Sadly NS2 seems to be headed down the path NS1 did...just a lot quicker.

    The game isn't as complex as you make it and people aren't as stupid as you think they are. Perhaps this is just you projecting your general ability as a human on the community at large, which seems a common theme for people who like to suffer in company. With decent tutorials and a reasonable grouping of skill levels there wouldn't have been a problem, which as I said is a consequence of UWE failing to implement basic housekeeping features that every other game has.

    Anyway enough responding to you two, you suck the life out of everything you approach.

    Actually I think the lack of a player base backs up our claims that the game is complex.
    You actually have to learn how to move for each of the 5 aliens lifeforms, all of which handle differently and need to be played differently.
    Sure if you played ns1 there is less to learn but if you have not then the learning curve is massive.

    Tutorials would not have had anywhere near the impact you seem to believe it would, neither would matchmaking due to the fact the community has struggled to really build a decent player base.

    Making the alien game play fun would have, this was why camo 1st was so popular on pubs (when it actually offered 100 invis) as it allowed lower skilled/new players an opportunity to get some kills and have some fun.

    Marine gameplay does not and has not suffered from a lack of fun aspect since JP's and underslung GL's got added (early beta days it sucked to be a marine...as you only had the lmg).

    This game has 2 sides...having only 1 of those being fun to play for new players has been an issue.
    Heck I knew ppl during the Beta who would only ever play marines (as aliens blew chunks) and would sit in the ready room rather than play aliens.

    Alien game play not being fun has been an issue for over 12 months...and it seems nothing is being done to address this.
    Changes are being made to give marines more options such as building on infestation or have a 50-50 chance of winning...but nothing is being done to ensure both sides have fun regardless of outcome of the round.
    _Necro_
  • ResRes Members Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Posts: 626
    edited July 2013
    Scatter wrote: »
    Game is marginally different than it was at release.


    There are quite a number of changes that were done to accommodate comp play... I don't actually care enough to put the time into finding and listing them all, but you really have no idea.

    ie you have a hatred towards competitive play in general.

    No, I don't. However, I do have a hatred towards comp players being catered to when it has a impact on the playerbase, which could have been larger if they weren't.

    ....and people aren't as stupid as you think they are.

    Obviously you've never had a job in customer service.


  • _Necro__Necro_ Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,904 Fully active user
    edited July 2013
    I actually agree. Playing at the sale-weekend with all the new players showed me again, how hard it is for a newbie to be successful as skulk.

    To be effective as skulk, you need to know how to walljump to get around the map fast and to enter combat distance fast.
    You need to know the map or your high speed won't get you nothing because you need to stop to look where you are and where you need to go.
    You need to know that marines can hear you walk and (with map knowledge) know where you will be coming from.
    You need to know that you should use the walls and the ceiling to engage a marine and never run straight at him on the ground.

    The problem is not, that all those things are to difficult for the default new player to do. The problem is, that a new player never gets to learn most of this things while playing the game. Normally learning to play a new game is fun. You get those rewarding aha!-experiences. But NS2 fails to present you those in a fun way.

    The tutorial videos (while I appreciate the work) aren't enough to create such an aha!-experience.

    I don't think that getting rid of those mechanics will fix that. Instead we would need one alien lifeform and one marine weapon that allows newbies to be effective. It needs to be a powerful one with a very very low skill ceiling. A thing that experienced players would not want to get, because they can be better with "weaker" lifeforms/weapons that have a higher skill ceiling.

    Heck thats why the newbies love to play Onos. But with the high cost it has, this is only a very short time to have fun. Followed by a frustrating moment. (Especially at the underpowered state the onos is now.)

    TL;DR:
    What NS2 needs is an equivalent to button-mashing in Street Fighter. Something simple but powerful. Not more powerful than a skilled player can get with the other weapons/lifeforms but powerful enough to allow the newbie to be a threat to an experienced player. Something with an exceptionally low skill ceiling so no advanced player would use it. And ideally it should be the default-class or free, so the new player does not need to figure out how to get it first and that it is perfect for him.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2003-11-28 Member: 23688Posts: 0 Advanced user
    Alien game play not being fun has been an issue for over 12 months...and it seems nothing is being done to address this.
    Changes are being made to give marines more options such as building on infestation or have a 50-50 chance of winning...but nothing is being done to ensure both sides have fun regardless of outcome of the round.

    Fun is subjective. I find aliens more fun than marines. I find walljumping/bhopping around the map as skulk fun. I find being a hit 'n run fade fun. I find making a little forward base as a gorge and hitting the taunt key every time I spit down a marine seriously fun.

    To be effective as skulk, you need to know how to walljump to get around the map fast and to enter combat distance fast.
    You need to know the map or your high speed won't get you nothing because you need to stop to look where you are and where you need to go.
    You need to know that marines can hear you walk and (with map knowledge) know where you will be coming from.
    You need to know that you should use the walls and the ceiling to engage a marine and never run straight at him on the ground.

    The problem is not, that all those things are to difficult for the default new player to do. The problem is, that a new player never gets to learn most of this things while playing the game. Normally learning to play a new game is fun. You get those rewarding aha!-experiences. But NS2 fails to present you those in a fun way.

    No different than when I started playing ns1, but you know what? I ****ing loved it. I didnt care that I was getting my butt handed to me over and over, what I had in front of me was a deap game that had me sucked in, one that I wanted to learn about and get better at.

    This thread kinda sums up how much online gaming has changed over the past 10 - 15 years, and it rather saddens me. Players are less likely to want to put up with a learning curve, the need for incentives or "swag" as one person put it or just the need for instant gratification instead of gaining skill/knowledge.

    I understand and respect it's just the way things are going, but man I'm mid-twenties and it makes me feel 60. Attitudes to gaming have just changed soo much in a fairly short amount of time.
    IronHorse
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    _Necro_ wrote: »
    What NS2 needs is an equivalent to button-mashing in Street Fighter. Something simple but powerful. Not more powerful than a skilled player can get with the other weapons/lifeforms but powerful enough to allow the newbie to be a threat to an experienced player. Something with an exceptionally low skill ceiling so no advanced player would use it. And ideally it should be the default-class or free, so the new player does not need to figure out how to get it first and that it is perfect for him.

    Bringing the noob-tube to NS2, or any game for that matter, is the worst idea I've ever heard.

    Neoken
  • HamletHamlet Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2008-08-17 Member: 64837Posts: 373 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    Steam stats say that I've played over 900 hours of NS2.
    What initially drew me to NS1 (and NS2, of course) is the cooperation aspect, the teamwork and communication that is needed to achieve a common goal.
    Comm and marines got to work hand-in-hand and if you are able to communicate well, coordinate well and direct groups well with the better strategy, you win. I find this aspect to be very enjoyable and there aren't (m)any other games that provide it.

    Lately, there is an annoying recurring pattern cropping up in all my games and it dawned on me that NS2 has, in fact, become a single player game.
    The pattern looks like this: There is one super pro überplayer who easily racks up more kills than the entire enemy team, sometimes even surmounting the whole frakking server combined (sic!). After that summer flash sale I see greenies go 0:10 the first game, 0:20 the second and the third? Well, they quit or uninstall because they've had it. At the cost of 1 player who is having the time of his life (again...), 15 other players are disgusted and leave the server (or even the game) in order to play something where they feel their actions have an impact on the outcome...

    I've had those superpros on my team, too. Winning those games was just as frustratingly boring as losing - grade A snorefests either way.
    If überpro was on my team, our comm could be total garbage, I could just stand around in base, listening to music, browsing the web - it would have made zero difference...
    If überpro was on the other team, I could command my ass off, bring my best play, the best communication and feedback- I would lose every single engagement no matter how many meds, scans or ammo are dropped on the players - it would have made zero difference...

    I'll be pausing NS2 for a while and just read changelogs. No drama, just reducing my hours drastically.
    Scatter wrote: »
    Stop trying to pin the failings of this game on [...] catering to the comp scene.

    Look at the big tournaments and you see the exact same pattern resurfacing: Except a super pro über player, you have one super pro über clan (i.e. Archea) and every other team just loses to one/nothing against them (remember Archea vs. Nexzil - 5 to fucking ZERO...)
    Once I noticed how much better Archea was than all the others, I stopped watching those Twitch broadcasts. Where is the excitement in watching roflstomps? With such a large scale for skill difference there was no place for sudden twists or surprises, just plain boring repetition in every game...

    I'll just leave two random internet comments on the NSL Grand Final:
    Commentator 1: "Oh look another Archaea win, what else is on?"
    Commentator 2: "I didn't need to watch that video to already know that."


    Having such vast insurmountable differences in your game does you no favours, Unknown Worlds.
    Neither for public play, nor for competitive play.
    If one plays NS2, there must be at least a small chance to win.
    And if one watches NS2, the outcome must be open in order to be exciting. Imagine that everyone knows which team will win the FIFA world cup, because - let's say - Brazil suddenly becomes so much better than every other country that they start to win every single match to zero. 2014 Brazil wins, 2018 Brazil wins again, 2022 Brazil *yaaaawn* Who would buy tickets for a World Series of Snorefests?
    Farewelltoarms
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    _Necro_ wrote: »
    I actually agree. Playing at the sale-weekend with all the new players showed me again, how hard it is for a newbie to be successful as skulk.

    To be effective as skulk, you need to know how to walljump to get around the map fast and to enter combat distance fast.
    You need to know the map or your high speed won't get you nothing because you need to stop to look where you are and where you need to go.
    You need to know that marines can hear you walk and (with map knowledge) know where you will be coming from.
    You need to know that you should use the walls and the ceiling to engage a marine and never run straight at him on the ground.

    The problem is not, that all those things are to difficult for the default new player to do. The problem is, that a new player never gets to learn most of this things while playing the game. Normally learning to play a new game is fun. You get those rewarding aha!-experiences. But NS2 fails to present you those in a fun way.

    The tutorial videos (while I appreciate the work) aren't enough to create such an aha!-experience.

    This part of your post makes sense. As much as I hate to admit, there are a lot of slow learners out there.
    I don't think that getting rid of those mechanics will fix that. Instead we would need one alien lifeform and one marine weapon that allows newbies to be effective. It needs to be a powerful one with a very very low skill ceiling. A thing that experienced players would not want to get, because they can be better with "weaker" lifeforms/weapons that have a higher skill ceiling.

    Heck thats why the newbies love to play Onos. But with the high cost it has, this is only a very short time to have fun. Followed by a frustrating moment. (Especially at the underpowered state the onos is now.)

    TL;DR:
    What NS2 needs is an equivalent to button-mashing in Street Fighter. Something simple but powerful. Not more powerful than a skilled player can get with the other weapons/lifeforms but powerful enough to allow the newbie to be a threat to an experienced player. Something with an exceptionally low skill ceiling so no advanced player would use it. And ideally it should be the default-class or free, so the new player does not need to figure out how to get it first and that it is perfect for him.

    This part does not. You're telling us the problem is that new players have a tough time learning stuff. So why not ask for better tutorials, more written guides, match making services to provide a less brutal learning environment? Why would you advocate for the implementation of a low skill-high reward weapon instead? The only thing that'll do is remove the incentive to actually improve your play, making the problem even worse.
    joshhh
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    @Hamlet you should watch the EU semi final between Godar and Saunamen that took place last week. Seriously. This game CAN be brilliantly poised between two evenly matched teams, and in that case it is absolutely epic. I agree that there's a problem when teams aren't so closely matched, though...
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • AfterhoursAfterhours Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-09-18 Member: 159869Posts: 107
    edited July 2013
    Ricez wrote: »
    Pick any game that is in the steam sale, then look at player numbers next week.
    http://steamgraph.net/index.php

    Completely irrelevant. Anybody can say, "well giving Halo 4 matchmaking would be pointless for it because WoW has so many more players than it."

    What steps need to be taken to ensure NS2 retains the players it gains from its sales and content updates?
    How about giving players the feeling of playing on an even board for the majority of their games?

    Do you think SC2 would have its popularity if the game just matched you with whoever? Bronze vs Grandmaster? Sucks for the bronze player, they'll just have to learn the game and get better against an opponent that is playing in ways they're not even familiar with...

    Your 1 liners are not insightful.

  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=4920

    Look how little the players count is for this game, UWE won't act, so it will keep falling. (UWE disappoints me with NS2 almost as much as Crytek disappointed me with Crysis 3, though I probably expected to much from Crytek)

    Switch graph to all time to see how the player account quickly got shot down. Or past week/month to see the effects of 250. (doing past week shows gradual loss of players)
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    They should develop something similar to Planetside 2's Roadmap, which gives each possible change a thread (obviously not for small things like bug fixes) where players get to vote on changes and give feedback with comments. You developers should try something like that since Planetside 2 has never (AFAIK) made a change that got noticeable criticism.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    AurOn2
  • xDragonxDragon Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,954 Fully active user
    edited July 2013
    I would love to see someone list all the changes that UWE has made solely for comp play, seriously. I don't even think you could come up with 10 valid things. You haven't the slightest clue if you are making comments like that... they have not even added a tournament mode to the game yet, something people have been requesting since.... lets see.. build 170?

    The low playercounts has absolutely nothing to do with a supposed focus on competitive play - if anything, UWE has taken a much more public play oriented focus with NS2 (compared to NS1). If you have trouble seeing that, just look at the resource model.
    FrozenPaLaGiAurOn2Locklear
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