The game is slowly dying, what do you think is the reason?

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  • MinimumMinimum Members Join Date: 2012-12-27 Member: 176382Posts: 56
    edited July 2013
    Saturday I had a LAN Party. We did 5v5 with mostly new people. Only a friend and I had real experience with NS2.

    Most people were playing completely blind to the basic mechanics. All they knew was to shoot the aliens and eat the humans. Otherwise I had to point out basic things like pressing B to enter the evolve menu. These people aren't stupid either. Almost everyone is in their early 20s and everyone has experience with FPS games. Luckily teamwork was high because everyone was within voice range of each other.

    This just confirms my suspicions that the game is too complex for new players. The environment at my party was very rookie friendly because everyone was brand new except for a friend and I. We both stuck to commanding and teaching while everyone else played.

    I'll run NS2 at the next LAN I have in October or December but I'll really have to sit people down beforehand to teach them. I haven't had to do that with any other game that I've ran at my now 13 LAN Parties.

    FYI: We ran both 249 AND 250.

    Other games that we've played in the past:
    * The Specialists 2.1
    * Zombie Panic!
    * Garry's Mod
    * Parasite (Gmod gamemode based off of The Thing)
    * Counter-Strike: Source Regular
    * Counter-Strike: Source Zombie Mod
    * Serious Sam HD 1 & 2
    * Terraria
    * Marathon
    * Zombie Panic! Source
    * Team Fortress 2
    * Half-Life 1 Deathmatch
    Fleshmauler
  • KhyronKhyron Members Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Posts: 498 Advanced user
    @Minimum
    I'm sorry your friends had some trouble with NS2, it is a complex game and it takes time to learn. The thing is, most of the complexity is there for a reason and it's important to recognise that. The game offers heaps of tutorial videos, an explore mode, loading screen tips, tool tips, short videos each time you die and newbie servers/mode. It's hard to imagine your friends didn't know stuff like pressing b to evolve unless they disabled and ignored a lot of those introductory things.

    At your next lan party I would definitely recommend showing a few of the tutorial videos which you can find under the Practice menu of the game.
    Spending more time on the forums than in the game. Since build 209.
    Team + local voice communication
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Posts: 1,188 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    It's an RTS game. RTS games are by their nature not "pick up and play" games. The first ~50 hours in any RTS game that is worth playing, you usually learn (by reading and trial and error against human opponents) about how the units and tech interact, and what a particular unit's strength and weakness is. When the basic knowledge of the game starts to become firm, you can actually improve. In NS2 there's the additional challenge of unfamiliar FPS elements (lots of vertical aiming, lots of unfamiliar movement on the alien side - wallwalking, flying, biting, etc.) so that takes even longer.

    It's not COD. But that's why it's awesome.
    _Necro_HamletKurrine
  • NeurivitaNeurivita Members Join Date: 2013-07-01 Member: 185842Posts: 6
    edited July 2013
    OKAY SO.


    Honestly a lot of points were brought up, and I feel some (if not most) are valid enough. Server issues will always turn off a player. As for the gripe on Female Marines? Believe it or not, Female characters (even in FPS genres) attract players more frequently than an all-male cast. This isn't the case 100%, because of course the game has to be fun too. But think about marketing for games these days; unless it's a Call of Duty, there's scarcely a lack of 'female' form to catch the eye of either female gamers looking for comfort/acceptance, or pervy guys wanting to stare at digital ass (or... just people in general who prefer it).

    You cannot deny that the aforementioned isn't true, like.. okay sure you can, but look at the games that have released from console to PC. Halo? As the game progressed Cortana's 'features' got much more developed and sex appeal was gradually increased for male gamers enjoyment, and they even added female characters (Starting with simple voice packs, and progressed to full on models). Even after they beat a dead horse with that franchise, it was still popular as hell. Not to say female characters/appeal was the sole reason, but I'd bet a good amount that it was at least a solid few % of contribution.

    But Halo isn't the only game, even Gears of War, Metal Gear Solid (even if not playable as far as MGS goes, there was still that subtle 'appeal'. Like the easter egg of groping Haven Troopers for example). Sex sells in common cases, basically. Even if it's just showing cleavage on the box art, people will buy the shit out of it.

    Now I'm not saying "Make Female Marines sexual and market them off the cover" ....lolno. I'm one of those people who enjoy modest/believable armor on my characters, rather than dressing them up like sluts; even if that does please the majority of a gamer base. But I guess I was just trying to throw a point on how, although I DO NOT believe Female Marines in NS2 (As MUCH as I would LOVE that) should be a major priority over things such as re-adjusting/bettering servers and whatever balance issues people are complaining about (sorry I can't back you guys in this statement, I'm sure you lot did it well enough in your own posts though <3). I DO believe they should still be pretty high up there to be rolled out once the technical challenges are ironed out.

    I've been taking a little break from the game, because as much as I love NS2 to Kibbles and Bits, I don't wish to burn out on it, I'd rather wait for more new content (like the aforementioned female marines, maybe newer maps/weapons?) so when I get back in to it, I can cry diamonds and roll around in the new toys. (The current stuff is still fun though, don't get me wrong.)


    Speaking of maps... Sticking to the thread subject, I believe one of the bigger things that make players decline from this game, is the lack of true map variety. I mean, I enjoy the current maps, and I think there's a map-editor for the community to play with somewhere... unless I'm high.

    Anyway.

    Just about every map seems to generally resemble one another by rough layout (Save a few key points). Of course, this was probably due to the mechanics of the game itself. It's a Red VS Blue (Your base here, My base here) deal, even if a tad more dynamic. So there's only so much they can do for maps. I ~guess~ what I'm trying to get across, it perhaps make them a little more... I don't know, unique? Sure adding a vent here or there can open up new elements that could make or break a solid strategy on either team. However, if they were to migrate away from -- even if just momentarily -- octagon formats of map-design with elaborate internals (think in-game map view). Perhaps add something more of an L-Shape?

    An L-Shape is simple, and would kind of be a low-key easy strategy form of map that beginners to the RTS style can play on, rather than being thrown in to "COVER ALL FRONTS" pressure of the current map setups. - Or an H Shape; Hell, what about an X shape with another X shape on top of it to make a multi-floor playing ground? ...Maybe a % shape with the center line being some crazy gap in to space or something and both bases being where the o's are (with various sub-bases/key points to capture scattered around the outer ring)...I swear I'm making sense.

    Regardless if my ideas are garbage or not for maps, I still hold to my initial statement on how I feel there could be a little more diversity with it.

    HOWEVER...........

    Let us not forget!!

    The Steam Sale is going on (Devs also had an issue with NS2 being up on the sale right away, which I'm sure cost some buys, regrettably - there's a thread about that too), and people are hopping around game to game like jumping beans. Many games (more than NS2) has had a mass population decline over the summer. Others, an increase. it all depends on what's new, what's keeping player's interested, and what's being beta tested. You got a lot of games in beta right now (some VERY anticipated MMOs for example) that even some of my friends are putting down games like NS2 and their regulars to try/enjoy the experiences. They aren't quitting, they're just hopping on the band wagons of New.

    Remember, just because numbers are low one day (players missing), doesn't mean they won't be -booming- another day. (Players returning after they've sated their curiosity). Though to the original poster, I do understand your concern with your mention of watching numbers. I can only hold to what I've explained and hope things pick up in the future!

    And if it's any comfort.. This game is renown to bring "Wow"'s to most people I introduce it to, as well as rookies just starting out and getting freaked by Onos. NS2 has got a unique experience I've only seen in like.. 1 or 2 other games? That FPS style with RTS mixed in; this game will not die anytime soon, I can safely say that.

    I only hope they keep pumping out the new content, unless they're waiting until later in the year to implement more things... Just don't wait too late guys, cuz once Holidays hit, it's ghost town all over again.

    K, that's all my input!

    o3o
    Take away the playground; I'll still find fun in the dirt. /
    Never forget, never be forgotten.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Members Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    edited July 2013
    Khyron wrote: »
    mclawls wrote: »
    It's because of threads like this, just read through the replies. EVERYONE has a different hilarious 'reason', and what happened was NS2 was constantly changed because they are trying to cater to a different opinion from each person.
    I went back and summerised all the complaints people have listed in this thread so far:
    1. No ranking / match making system
    2. Design for Casual vs competitive audience
    3. Modding/buildings breaking
    4. Competition (other games)
    5. Performance
    6. Round duration (too long)
    7. Servers with too many slots
    8. Difficulty curve
    9. Alien commander
    10. Snowballing

    8/10 of those are serious problems contributing to a shrinking player base. 0/10 of them are hilarious.

    You forgot the carrot and stick/progression mechanics. It's not that I think those mechanics would directly improve the game (most of them would be highly detrimental), but I guarantee you that with strong such mechanics the game would have twice the retention it does, if not much much more, DESPITE being worse for it. At the very least we could go for achievements and statistics which wouldn't need to directly impact gameplay and would still provide SOME incentives.

    Just having a great game isn't enough. You have to trick people into playing it for long enough to see how great it really is.
  • woxxwoxx Members Join Date: 2013-07-16 Member: 186147Posts: 2
    SjN wrote: »
    Solution? there should be a global database that will keep track of player's K:D ratio. And server admins should have the option to enable an "balanced teams" on their server which will ensure that both teams have an equal average K:D ratio. I believe this is the best way to keep the teams balanced.

    Just a simple K/D ratio system won't solve the the balance problem. You will need something more advanced than that.
    Like the ELO -rating system which is beeing used in a lot a games (ex: LoL, Quake Live)
    SjN
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Members Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Posts: 1,866 Advanced user
    peregrinus wrote: »
    Unfortunately another batch of new players about to hit the game with out of date tutorials no manual or explanations. I'm afraid the devs took for granted how complicated this game is relative to others.

    While I agree the game is complicated; I think there is a healthy dose of games out there that are the quite opposite end of the spectrum. Games have really moved to the simpler end of the spectrum; much to the detriment of gaming as a whole. Sadly complexity and challenging game play have taken a back seat to sales and ease of use. The massive influx of casual gamers and the accessibility of gaming have turned what once was a deep and varied experience into a shallow pool of the same repetitive dross, reiterated into "Modern Military Shooter 4: Now with more Brown textures and Bloom!". Throw in plenty of Carrots of gated content to artificially extend the games life span, and a huge advertising budget and you get what we have today.

    It reminds me of this.

    /gets back on his rocking chair on the porch

    Auto correct, I am tired of your shirt!
    Paragon[AwE]Sentinel_Necro_Kurrine
  • _Necro__Necro_ Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,904 Fully active user
    edited July 2013
    MMZ_Torak wrote: »
    peregrinus wrote: »
    Unfortunately another batch of new players about to hit the game with out of date tutorials no manual or explanations. I'm afraid the devs took for granted how complicated this game is relative to others.

    While I agree the game is complicated; I think there is a healthy dose of games out there that are the quite opposite end of the spectrum. Games have really moved to the simpler end of the spectrum; much to the detriment of gaming as a whole. Sadly complexity and challenging game play have taken a back seat to sales and ease of use. The massive influx of casual gamers and the accessibility of gaming have turned what once was a deep and varied experience into a shallow pool of the same repetitive dross, reiterated into "Modern Military Shooter 4: Now with more Brown textures and Bloom!". Throw in plenty of Carrots of gated content to artificially extend the games life span, and a huge advertising budget and you get what we have today.

    It reminds me of this.

    /gets back on his rocking chair on the porch

    While I agree with you, I also think a middle ground is possible. New players should have the possibility to achieve something even if they don't understand the game yet. There should be a mechanic that gives you satisfaction without you needing to know how wall jump works. There are ways to create simple mechanics in games to have a sense of achievement for new players without making the game shallow.

    One example often named is street fighter. You can win with simple button mashing against moderate players. But a pro player will have ways to overcome the button mashing. And in order to get better you also need to stop the mashing and learn more complicated moves. But the point is, even if you are a casual and you are fine with mashing, you can get fun out of the game. And this "fun for easy tasks" is needed to hold a broad player base. This "fun that doesn't demand lots of skill" is needed to mesmerize players long enough to start learning the details of the game. (and have even more fun with them!)

    One can't just expect that more than 20% of the players are willing to endure hours of failure and stomping until they begin to matter in a match. Until they finally get the feeling of achievement and progress.

    This problem is even exacerbated in the alien team. While marines can get the feeling of achievement by building an RT or a PG in a contested area, the aliens are only really fun when you can kill marines. And as a ground skulk this is very unlikely for you. Even chewing down an RT is more of a chore than the feeling of achievement.

    TL;DR:
    Game needs more easy tasks for new players that let them feel important and give them a sense of achievement before learning the more advanced things.
    This things need to be highly intuitive but also not to much of a game changer (or easily counter-able by skilled play), so skill is not devalued.
    Emoo
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Members Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Posts: 1,866 Advanced user
    _Necro_ wrote: »
    MMZ_Torak wrote: »
    peregrinus wrote: »
    Unfortunately another batch of new players about to hit the game with out of date tutorials no manual or explanations. I'm afraid the devs took for granted how complicated this game is relative to others.

    While I agree the game is complicated; I think there is a healthy dose of games out there that are the quite opposite end of the spectrum. Games have really moved to the simpler end of the spectrum; much to the detriment of gaming as a whole. Sadly complexity and challenging game play have taken a back seat to sales and ease of use. The massive influx of casual gamers and the accessibility of gaming have turned what once was a deep and varied experience into a shallow pool of the same repetitive dross, reiterated into "Modern Military Shooter 4: Now with more Brown textures and Bloom!". Throw in plenty of Carrots of gated content to artificially extend the games life span, and a huge advertising budget and you get what we have today.

    It reminds me of this.

    /gets back on his rocking chair on the porch

    While I agree with you, I also think a middle ground is possible. New players should have the possibility to achieve something even if they don't understand the game yet. There should be a mechanic that gives you satisfaction without you needing to know how wall jump works. There are ways to create simple mechanics in games to have a sense of achievement for new players without making the game shallow.

    One example often named is street fighter. You can win with simple button mashing against moderate players. But a pro player will have ways to overcome the button mashing. And in order to get better you also need to stop the mashing and learn more complicated moves. But the point is, even if you are a casual and you are fine with mashing, you can get fun out of the game. And this "fun for easy tasks" is needed to hold a broad player base. This "fun that doesn't demand lots of skill" is needed to mesmerize players long enough to start learning the details of the game. (and have even more fun with them!)

    One can't just expect that more than 20% of the players are willing to endure hours of failure and stomping until they begin to matter in a match. Until they finally get the feeling of achievement and progress.

    This problem is even exacerbated in the alien team. While marines can get the feeling of achievement by building an RT or a PG in a contested area, the aliens are only really fun when you can kill marines. And as a ground skulk this is very unlikely for you. Even chewing down an RT is more of a chore than the feeling of achievement.

    TL;DR:
    Game needs more easy tasks for new players that let them feel important and give them a sense of achievement before learning the more advanced things.
    This things need to be highly intuitive but also not to much of a game changer (or easily counter-able by skilled play), so skill is not devalued.

    Absolutely; I agree. Gorge is good for that. Also on the Marine side, being the Base *itch was a a good place to start. If you don't know the game, take a role that has direct synergy with the commander. This way you can learn the maps, game flow, etc. the problem as I see it is that people want to buy the game and be the "Rockstar Fade" right out of the box. I don't blame them too much for this, most modern multiplayer FPS games cater to this attitude. I really feel people don't want to take their lumps anymore, in any capacity. Hell, I was never a good Fade. But I was a great NS Gorge. Marine side I was a great support player who moved with the team, always carried a welder and kept my squad welded, kept my eyes and ears open and called out threats, and on okay commander depending on the team. Immediate gratification is the detriment to this game. I am beginning to think gaming has passed NS2 by. There aren't enough people willing to put the time in to learn the game because too many other games are too shallow.
    Auto correct, I am tired of your shirt!
    Frozen
  • _Necro__Necro_ Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,904 Fully active user
    Yeah probably. Instant gratification is the norm now.

    But in the good old times, pc gaming was a niche. I don't think the players got suddenly stupid. In fact I think the gaming industry catered to "stupid people". ;) And that is how the industry could grow this big. The games that were made for casuals have bought so many more people to gaming. The remaining hardcore games are catering to the "hard core" but don't think you can get the average joe to play such games with you. :)
    MMZ_TorakGavaal
  • derWalterderWalter Members Join Date: 2008-10-29 Member: 65323Posts: 634 Fully active user
    performance performance performance


    there is a reason for counterstrike 1.6 to be unbeaten for 14 years!

    its pure quality of the engine which rewards you for good aiming.

    if you manage to put your crosshair on the head of your enemy
    (and handle your movement and spraycontrol etc.)
    you will get a kill no matter what!

    why? cause you get stable 100 fps clientside
    and you have servers running at 1000fps
    with an updaterate and cmdrate of 100 per second.


    and ns? serverrate 30fps!!!!
    horrible fps lags clientside
    and a hit-detection like my old granny.



    this is the reason.
    the people dont really KNOW why they loose interest.

    they just ain't experiencing the feeling of having a chance of owning the others!
    (not even when you learn the game mechanics and manage the teamplay...)
    the game just dosent fell responsive and thats why the ppl loose interest so quickly.
  • derWalterderWalter Members Join Date: 2008-10-29 Member: 65323Posts: 634 Fully active user
    and for the lua implementation.

    yes, it was a good idea, but the implementation just sux.

    lets face it: the guys from crytek have this up and running for years,
    but take a look at the performance (in all fields!) of the cryengine and spark...

    even the way epic took with unreal engine 4,
    the hot compiling and loading of c++ code is 100x times more efficient.


    ofc... those engines being shaped since 10-15 years - FOR A REASON!!!


    all that counts in the end: they made a lot of money.
    in a capitalistic system like ours,
    those guys are the winners!!!

    and the winners write the history, not us... the loosers.


    they will step on our head and will just bring out the next game.
    maybe also successful money wise.
    Sounds a little bit like a new EA/Fifa/Cod, mh?


    i dont want em to fail in any way,
    but i would love to see em coming back with their old inspiration
    and attitude and hunger, like when they had no money,
    but instead went for a different way then all the other companies did.


    (open development, close and open to their community from top down,
    watching over the poor people with poor hardware and changing the world to a better place,
    right from the spot where they where standing)



    i am just dreaming that we are getting our old charlie back.
    come on charlie, keep on!
    change the world again and stop being interchangeable,
    walking the path of money and strategic business administration.


    in love
    walter
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Members Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Posts: 323 Fully active user
    Performance is bad
    Tutorial system is lackluster
    Learning curve too high
    Rookie-friendly servers are misleading
  • Metal ManMetal Man Members Join Date: 2011-11-13 Member: 132717Posts: 52
    Okay let me break it down for all you fellas. This is how it goes:

    So when the game was first released everyone wanted to play it. That makes sense, most people want to try an interesting game when it first comes out. At launch the community was great. But over time a majority of people left due to the overall performance and its separations from the original NS. This left a select, smaller community of players with high-end PCs. Player count continued to dwindle to the point it is at now.

    Now here is the current problem. Because the community is so small, the more casual players are at ends with the competitive ones. You have this group of super experienced, all-out, balls to the wall, competitive players (who constantly get better with their matches with all 4 of the other clans) and then this group of casual to average (more casual) players getting stomped by a few of these competitive players in any PUB they go to. The pub gets unbearably difficult for the less experienced until the server clears... and now noone has fun. However, the competitive player can return to his clan matches and scrims and still have the BEST time of his life. Tactical gameplay, teamework, challenging matches, etc. The casual gamer gets frustrated, quits the game, servers clear, and the small clan scene continues. Previously the ratio of casual:competitive was TOO close.

    Now I am NOT saying it needs to be more user friendly for casual players. Probably the opposite. I think UWE needs to continue in this direction. Increased performance AND less simplified gameplay will bring back a chunk of the community. The average server is not gonna get stomped and cleared by one or few good players. Matches will get more competitive on the pub side, players will get more engaged and LESS casual (the casuals can stay I guess... i don't care either way) and public servers will be great again!!!! This will transition into a larger clan scene and the game will flourish and shine bright like a diamond. Continue in THIS direction and the game will recover. Continue working on performance (less PC intensive obviously will lead to a higher community) and skills and learning curves and techniques and tactics - because, AND THIS IS KEY, MOST people playing a multiplayer PC RTS/FPS expect a game to be challenging with the intent of getting better, so, in the eventual future, they can stomp instead of get stomped. Most PC gamers (at least those looking into NS2) have a lot of gaming experience. Otherwise they would be looking at games like Escape from ravenhurst or some shit like that... not NS2 (once again, in case anyone missed it, NS2 is a multiplayer PC REALTIMESTRAT/FPS). Dear god we don't need voiced tutorials from Hugh, if we want to improve we can learn from the wiki or, i dunno, from experience. You don't need to cater to the casual player to have a successful online PC game. You can, but that isn't going to determine the game's fate.

    So there you go boys and girls. A complete analysis of the stat of the game up to this point. Continue to fix performance and aspects of gameplay that were dumbed down, and the community will grow. Increased average player count will bring stability to the servers. Stability to the servers will result in a larger competitive community. There you go.

    Please take the time to read this and let it sink in. Anyone with a somewhat open mind will realize this is the truth. I am truly sorry if any of you casual players are upset by this. But you need to realize you guys are cancer to this game (no offense).... You can stay but please don't talk any more or provide any insight or reason to UWE. They are too kind of a company and will listen to you and then everyone will suffer more.
    SjN
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Posts: 581 Advanced user
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    Performance is bad
    Tutorial system is lackluster
    Learning curve too high
    Rookie-friendly servers are misleading

  • Electr0Electr0 Members Join Date: 2011-10-31 Member: 130337Posts: 349
    edited July 2013
    Apart from the balance issues i always thought it wasn't right to release the game with only a few maps, we had something like five at the time and it's not really much better now, if you think about it most games come with both single and multiplayer modes and at least 8 to 14 maps, so for a purely multiplayer game to have so few doesn't make sense, uwe are understandably a small team but they could of got more people elsewhere working on maps using existing artwork, hoping the community will make a lots of high quality balanced maps freely isn't fair if that's what they were planning, there are a few good custom maps but it doesn't help much when the vast majority of servers won't play them. :(
  • allbusinessallbusiness Members Join Date: 2013-07-16 Member: 186160Posts: 6
    edited July 2013
    Morchaint wrote: »
    For what it is worth, I am one of those people who stopped playing months ago. I had almost 400 hours in NS2. I absolutely loved the game and I stopped playing for one reason and one reason only. Frustration.

    While I am never among the elite, normally in multiplayer games I can eventually learn to hold my own and provide quality game-play to a team. However, in NS2 there were a group of elite players who were so good, it was like they were playing an entirely different game.

    LET ME BE CLEAR. I am in no way saying, implying, nor do I think these people are/were hacking.

    However, after watching these players closely and trying to emulate them over hundreds of hours, it became clear to me that they understood some basic concept, macro, modifcation, or a combination of these in reference to the aiming and movement mechanics of NS2 that I simply could not figure out.

    I would watch these players head out solo as Marines and be almost impossible to hit. They would head out solo as basic aliens and absolutely destroy any Marine they met.

    Getting stomped by these people over and over just left me feeling frustrated and unsatisfied. So, I eventually lost interest in the game.

    Now you can insult me all you want and call me "newb" and "looser". That's cool. But, there was a level of play in this game that some people achieved that was so much beyond any other players that it simply became unfun to play.

    As I said, I usually find this sort of situation a welcome challenge and I studied, followed and watched these players. But I could never understand the game they were playing. I could never get the game I was playing to do what they were capable of doing.

    So, just personal experience. It may be that this reason is common or I was one of the few. But these elite people stomping team after team and being the sole determining factor of which side would win made me loose interest in the game.

    If it were not for this fact, I would still be playing this game today.



    This is exactly pretty much why I stopped playing NS1 after hundreds of hours, and why I feel extremely discouraged to continue to play NS2. They have built the skill cap so high in NS1/NS2 that one player is more than capable of not only taking over a game, but able to literally win games by himself even with some of the most incompetent commanders possible. This is exactly why most people will quit your game. Why should I play a game where 1 player is capable of taking on 8 players? The Fade is the perfect example of why people will instantly quit your game. In any kind of team based shooter, you would expect that even if you are a new or even just an average player, you and everyone else as long as you are cooperating with each other you would be able to beat one player.

    That was not the case in NS1 or NS2. Any kind of high level player can literally walk in and just destroy and man handle a team single handily. Fades are the most prominent example, but Jetpack Marines, excellent aim with an Exosuit, etc. all basically promote the same thing. It allows a high level player so much room to flex his skill that even your average player who understands the game and knows what he is doing basically stands 0 chance, even when he is cooperating with multiple players on his team.


    Chivalry has had issues with this, and Torn Banner took steps in order to lower the amount of devastation a high level player can cause. They did this because it was ridiculous that a top level player could go in and snag 50+ kills with 5 or less deaths or some ridiculous KDR. In NS1/NS2, it wasn't uncommon for a high level Alien/Marine player to go 50+ kills with 0 deaths. Only times these guys die is if they get extremely unlucky and catch a few stray pointblank shotgun blasts to the face or some stray grenades, or perhaps they got way too cocky with their jetpack and accidently ran into way too many aliens in one room. It's in fact detrimental to your game to allow high level players to rampage games to the point where people quit servers. The reason why people continued to play CS despite the fact that some high level players could roll over a pub was that it was possible for that high level player to die; he had to get pretty lucky to win a 1v3 situation let alone any kind of impossible or implausible 1v8 situation.


    TL;DR, decrease the level of impact that an individual has in a team based game. Games like DotA, CS, League of Legends, and other team based competitive games succeed because they decrease the amount of impact a highly skilled individual has in the game. Your team should only be as strong as your weakest link. In NS2, as long as your commander is semi competent and knows how to tech fast to feed items/evos/etc. to a high level player, you basically win your pub pretty much every time.

    In fact, please do not listen to your competitive community when it comes to 'skillcap.' It is the worst argument in the world, especially when this is a team based game. You should make strategy and teamwork the emphasis of the game. Too many times even pubstar players can walk into an NS pub and basically wreck everyone just because he has superior aiming/moving skills than everyone else, and no amount of teamwork/strategy can overcome that.
    _Necro_HamletKenshiken
  • FrustrationFrustration Members Join Date: 2013-01-19 Member: 180628Posts: 53
    Hey, sorry, Morchaint.Sorry I made you leave NS2.XD

    Would like to reinforce underline the idea of matchmaking again.Best time I had was on a russian server with mostly newbies.No ****s, who had played since the universe began.Everyone learned together.

    1 guy can kill your entire team(I´ve gone on full on rage modes, by insulting the guy, it is basically my thing now; I usually get kicked, but it sure is satisfying to tell that selfish fade or shotgunner to watch his whole family get ra**ed and killed)
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    Its dying because they made 250 and they continually refuse to revert the "balance" changes. I don't play this game anymore BECAUSE of 250. I just don't understand why they don't change back this disaster.

    Personally, I found it easy to learn the game. It only took me 5 matches and I learned almost everything. (now, it's different to learn commander but that is less important and is because commanders receive pressure)

    Gorge is VERY useful, without one, aliens always lose. (but a few people dont like to play gorge, which is different and usually you have at least 1-2 gorges)
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    Hey, sorry, Morchaint.Sorry I made you leave NS2.XD

    Would like to reinforce underline the idea of matchmaking again.Best time I had was on a russian server with mostly newbies.No ****s, who had played since the universe began.Everyone learned together.

    1 guy can kill your entire team(I´ve gone on full on rage modes, by insulting the guy, it is basically my thing now; I usually get kicked, but it sure is satisfying to tell that selfish fade or shotgunner to watch his whole family get ra**ed and killed)

    I would suggest you don't do that, since no one would agree with you and it is just wrong. (there is difference between rubbing your winning in someones face, and just trying to harass/insult them)
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    Morchaint wrote: »
    For what it is worth, I am one of those people who stopped playing months ago. I had almost 400 hours in NS2. I absolutely loved the game and I stopped playing for one reason and one reason only. Frustration.

    While I am never among the elite, normally in multiplayer games I can eventually learn to hold my own and provide quality game-play to a team. However, in NS2 there were a group of elite players who were so good, it was like they were playing an entirely different game.

    LET ME BE CLEAR. I am in no way saying, implying, nor do I think these people are/were hacking.

    However, after watching these players closely and trying to emulate them over hundreds of hours, it became clear to me that they understood some basic concept, macro, modifcation, or a combination of these in reference to the aiming and movement mechanics of NS2 that I simply could not figure out.

    I would watch these players head out solo as Marines and be almost impossible to hit. They would head out solo as basic aliens and absolutely destroy any Marine they met.

    Getting stomped by these people over and over just left me feeling frustrated and unsatisfied. So, I eventually lost interest in the game.

    Now you can insult me all you want and call me "newb" and "looser". That's cool. But, there was a level of play in this game that some people achieved that was so much beyond any other players that it simply became unfun to play.

    As I said, I usually find this sort of situation a welcome challenge and I studied, followed and watched these players. But I could never understand the game they were playing. I could never get the game I was playing to do what they were capable of doing.

    So, just personal experience. It may be that this reason is common or I was one of the few. But these elite people stomping team after team and being the sole determining factor of which side would win made me loose interest in the game.

    If it were not for this fact, I would still be playing this game today.

    Im sorry that you are so used to easier games (like COD), but, this game is harder than other games, and that simply will not change as it is impossible to make it easier as it would require changing the game COMPLETELY and no1 would want to play the game. (many of us also like this game to be challenging)

    In a word, this game requires skill. (and 1-5 hours of practice to learn the game) So if you can't play the game AT ALL after hours of practice, this game is just simply not for you.

    Also, don't assume I don't like COD, I just think it's a bit too easy and straight-forward.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    1 guy can kill your entire team(I´ve gone on full on rage modes, by insulting the guy, it is basically my thing now; I usually get kicked, but it sure is satisfying to tell that selfish fade or shotgunner to watch his whole family get ra**ed and killed)

    Oh wow. I've always wondered what kind of people can't control their outbursts enough to not do this, but to take pride and satisfaction in it? I hope I'll never run into you anywhere ever.
    Kurrine
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    edited July 2013
    coolitic wrote: »
    Its dying because they made 250 and they continually refuse to revert the "balance" changes. I don't play this game anymore BECAUSE of 250. I just don't understand why they don't change back this disaster.
    I feel you never really understood why each change was made in the first place thus making your argument null.
    Personally, I found it easy to learn the game. It only took me 5 matches and I learned almost everything. (now, it's different to learn commander but that is less important and is because commanders receive pressure)
    New players learning the lifeforms will learn them just as quick as before. Nothing changed aside from the movement mechanic which takes all but a day to get the basics down again.

    Overall I agree with Neoken. A lot of new players are getting discouraged with the high skill difference in pubs. Even though the comp scene is not that large, a matchmaking system will pull some of the higher skilled players out of the pub servers, thus helping a little.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    Hey, sorry, orchaint.Sorry I made you leave NS2.XD

    Would like to reinforce underline the idea of matchmaking again.Best time I had was on a russian server with mostly newbies.No ****s, who had played since the universe began.Everyone learned together.

    1 guy can kill your entire team(I´ve gone on full on rage modes, by insulting the guy, it is basically my thing now; I usually get kicked, but it sure is satisfying to tell that selfish fade or shotgunner to watch his whole family get ra**ed and killed)

    Having been on the receiving end of this specific abuse from you while on my own clan server, which I personally paid money for, I can tell you now that the pathetic, childish outburst turned your entire team against you and won you no friends. It was mildly entertaining, and of course flattering to have precipitated such an unwarranted attack through nothing more than a small amount of skill and some teamwork, though.
    I am genuinely confused about what you're trying to achieve, though...
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
    Hamlet
  • allbusinessallbusiness Members Join Date: 2013-07-16 Member: 186160Posts: 6
    Neoken wrote: »
    Morchaint wrote: »
    For what it is worth, I am one of those people who stopped playing months ago. I had almost 400 hours in NS2. I absolutely loved the game and I stopped playing for one reason and one reason only. Frustration.

    While I am never among the elite, normally in multiplayer games I can eventually learn to hold my own and provide quality game-play to a team. However, in NS2 there were a group of elite players who were so good, it was like they were playing an entirely different game.

    LET ME BE CLEAR. I am in no way saying, implying, nor do I think these people are/were hacking.

    However, after watching these players closely and trying to emulate them over hundreds of hours, it became clear to me that they understood some basic concept, macro, modifcation, or a combination of these in reference to the aiming and movement mechanics of NS2 that I simply could not figure out.

    I would watch these players head out solo as Marines and be almost impossible to hit. They would head out solo as basic aliens and absolutely destroy any Marine they met.

    Getting stomped by these people over and over just left me feeling frustrated and unsatisfied. So, I eventually lost interest in the game.

    Now you can insult me all you want and call me "newb" and "looser". That's cool. But, there was a level of play in this game that some people achieved that was so much beyond any other players that it simply became unfun to play.

    As I said, I usually find this sort of situation a welcome challenge and I studied, followed and watched these players. But I could never understand the game they were playing. I could never get the game I was playing to do what they were capable of doing.

    So, just personal experience. It may be that this reason is common or I was one of the few. But these elite people stomping team after team and being the sole determining factor of which side would win made me loose interest in the game.

    If it were not for this fact, I would still be playing this game today.



    This is exactly pretty much why I stopped playing NS1 after hundreds of hours, and why I feel extremely discouraged to continue to play NS2. They have built the skill cap so high in NS1/NS2 that one player is more than capable of not only taking over a game, but able to literally win games by himself even with some of the most incompetent commanders possible. This is exactly why most people will quit your game. Why should I play a game where 1 player is capable of taking on 8 players? The Fade is the perfect example of why people will instantly quit your game. In any kind of team based shooter, you would expect that even if you are a new or even just an average player, you and everyone else as long as you are cooperating with each other you would be able to beat one player.

    That was not the case in NS1 or NS2. Any kind of high level player can literally walk in and just destroy and man handle a team single handily. Fades are the most prominent example, but Jetpack Marines, excellent aim with an Exosuit, etc. all basically promote the same thing. It allows a high level player so much room to flex his skill that even your average player who understands the game and knows what he is doing basically stands 0 chance, even when he is cooperating with multiple players on his team.


    Chivalry has had issues with this, and Torn Banner took steps in order to lower the amount of devastation a high level player can cause. They did this because it was ridiculous that a top level player could go in and snag 50+ kills with 5 or less deaths or some ridiculous KDR. In NS1/NS2, it wasn't uncommon for a high level Alien/Marine player to go 50+ kills with 0 deaths. Only times these guys die is if they get extremely unlucky and catch a few stray pointblank shotgun blasts to the face or some stray grenades, or perhaps they got way too cocky with their jetpack and accidently ran into way too many aliens in one room. It's in fact detrimental to your game to allow high level players to rampage games to the point where people quit servers. The reason why people continued to play CS despite the fact that some high level players could roll over a pub was that it was possible for that high level player to die; he had to get pretty lucky to win a 1v3 situation let alone any kind of impossible or implausible 1v8 situation.


    TL;DR, decrease the level of impact that an individual has in a team based game. Games like DotA, CS, League of Legends, and other team based competitive games succeed because they decrease the amount of impact a highly skilled individual has in the game. Your team should only be as strong as your weakest link. In NS2, as long as your commander is semi competent and knows how to tech fast to feed items/evos/etc. to a high level player, you basically win your pub pretty much every time.

    In fact, please do not listen to your competitive community when it comes to 'skillcap.' It is the worst argument in the world, especially when this is a team based game. You should make strategy and teamwork the emphasis of the game. Too many times even pubstar players can walk into an NS pub and basically wreck everyone just because he has superior aiming/moving skills than everyone else, and no amount of teamwork/strategy can overcome that.

    The best way to solve this issue is not by reducing the skill ceiling, but by implementing matchmaking.


    Why does a team based game need to have a high individual skill cap? It makes no sense at all. NS2 is based off of outdated twitch shooter mechanics. Those days are long gone, and no one is interested in a game like that. That's why NS1/NS2 never took off; the game is already complex as it is to a new player, especially when it comes to properly commanding. Then on top of having to learn what does what, how to counter certain things, etc. then you have to deal with the fact that the absurdly high individual skill cap in the game. Sure, maybe diehard hardcore video gamers like it, but a large portion of the gaming community does not.

    If you want the game to succeed, you have to give ground somewhere. Every single successful competitive game today allows lesser skilled players to win against higher skilled players. In SC2, you can be mechanically strong as you want, but if someone simply outsmarts you with a better build, they can have inferior mechanics and still beat you. In League of Legends,
    Neoken wrote: »
    Morchaint wrote: »
    For what it is worth, I am one of those people who stopped playing months ago. I had almost 400 hours in NS2. I absolutely loved the game and I stopped playing for one reason and one reason only. Frustration.

    While I am never among the elite, normally in multiplayer games I can eventually learn to hold my own and provide quality game-play to a team. However, in NS2 there were a group of elite players who were so good, it was like they were playing an entirely different game.

    LET ME BE CLEAR. I am in no way saying, implying, nor do I think these people are/were hacking.

    However, after watching these players closely and trying to emulate them over hundreds of hours, it became clear to me that they understood some basic concept, macro, modifcation, or a combination of these in reference to the aiming and movement mechanics of NS2 that I simply could not figure out.

    I would watch these players head out solo as Marines and be almost impossible to hit. They would head out solo as basic aliens and absolutely destroy any Marine they met.

    Getting stomped by these people over and over just left me feeling frustrated and unsatisfied. So, I eventually lost interest in the game.

    Now you can insult me all you want and call me "newb" and "looser". That's cool. But, there was a level of play in this game that some people achieved that was so much beyond any other players that it simply became unfun to play.

    As I said, I usually find this sort of situation a welcome challenge and I studied, followed and watched these players. But I could never understand the game they were playing. I could never get the game I was playing to do what they were capable of doing.

    So, just personal experience. It may be that this reason is common or I was one of the few. But these elite people stomping team after team and being the sole determining factor of which side would win made me loose interest in the game.

    If it were not for this fact, I would still be playing this game today.



    This is exactly pretty much why I stopped playing NS1 after hundreds of hours, and why I feel extremely discouraged to continue to play NS2. They have built the skill cap so high in NS1/NS2 that one player is more than capable of not only taking over a game, but able to literally win games by himself even with some of the most incompetent commanders possible. This is exactly why most people will quit your game. Why should I play a game where 1 player is capable of taking on 8 players? The Fade is the perfect example of why people will instantly quit your game. In any kind of team based shooter, you would expect that even if you are a new or even just an average player, you and everyone else as long as you are cooperating with each other you would be able to beat one player.

    That was not the case in NS1 or NS2. Any kind of high level player can literally walk in and just destroy and man handle a team single handily. Fades are the most prominent example, but Jetpack Marines, excellent aim with an Exosuit, etc. all basically promote the same thing. It allows a high level player so much room to flex his skill that even your average player who understands the game and knows what he is doing basically stands 0 chance, even when he is cooperating with multiple players on his team.


    Chivalry has had issues with this, and Torn Banner took steps in order to lower the amount of devastation a high level player can cause. They did this because it was ridiculous that a top level player could go in and snag 50+ kills with 5 or less deaths or some ridiculous KDR. In NS1/NS2, it wasn't uncommon for a high level Alien/Marine player to go 50+ kills with 0 deaths. Only times these guys die is if they get extremely unlucky and catch a few stray pointblank shotgun blasts to the face or some stray grenades, or perhaps they got way too cocky with their jetpack and accidently ran into way too many aliens in one room. It's in fact detrimental to your game to allow high level players to rampage games to the point where people quit servers. The reason why people continued to play CS despite the fact that some high level players could roll over a pub was that it was possible for that high level player to die; he had to get pretty lucky to win a 1v3 situation let alone any kind of impossible or implausible 1v8 situation.


    TL;DR, decrease the level of impact that an individual has in a team based game. Games like DotA, CS, League of Legends, and other team based competitive games succeed because they decrease the amount of impact a highly skilled individual has in the game. Your team should only be as strong as your weakest link. In NS2, as long as your commander is semi competent and knows how to tech fast to feed items/evos/etc. to a high level player, you basically win your pub pretty much every time.

    In fact, please do not listen to your competitive community when it comes to 'skillcap.' It is the worst argument in the world, especially when this is a team based game. You should make strategy and teamwork the emphasis of the game. Too many times even pubstar players can walk into an NS pub and basically wreck everyone just because he has superior aiming/moving skills than everyone else, and no amount of teamwork/strategy can overcome that.

    The best way to solve this issue is not by reducing the skill ceiling, but by implementing matchmaking.


    Matchmaking doesn't solve the problem. It's too easy for a competitive player/high level pub player to go into a community server and wreck shop. You would have to make matchmaking actually the primary way of playing games, which is not something that is easy to do in a game like this where community servers are always far more prevalent. Sorry to say it, but NS is already complicated as it is for a new player, adding an extra layer of high skill cap on top of everything only discourages them further as they become more and more frustrated.
    _Necro_
  • AfterhoursAfterhours Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-09-18 Member: 159869Posts: 107
    edited July 2013
    Biggest factors that push to me quit playing NS2 for the night:

    Server with:
    High Ping
    Preferred game size not available (ie 6v6-8v8)
    Stacked Teams

    The stacked teams issue is by far the most common, and most frustrating. I can guarantee that games like Starcraft 2, and LoL, retain a more active player base because they implement a Matchmaking system. I feel that a MM system helps retain players by:

    - Creating clear goals for players to overcome. (Being matched against equal skilled opponents means your skill progression as a player becomes more noticeable, and accessible.)
    - Secures players into their desired area of play. (Casuals keep playing with casuals, pro's with pro's.)
    - Creates a stronger relation between players and the Esports community for NS2. (Providing players with a way to compare themselves to their peers tends to lead players to look for more sources of information such as Tournament VoD's, etc.)

    I honestly feel that providing some kind of dedicated MM system could seriously help new players and veterans get into the type of game they really feel like playing, instead of joining a server, crossing their fingers, and hoping the players are decent enough to give good games.
    Post edited by Afterhours on
    blindKurrine
  • allbusinessallbusiness Members Join Date: 2013-07-16 Member: 186160Posts: 6
    Afterhours wrote: »
    Biggest factors that push to me quit playing NS2 for the night:

    Server with:
    High Ping
    Preferred game size not available (ie 12v12-18v18)
    Stacked Teams

    The stacked teams issue is by far the most common, and most frustrating. I can guarantee that games like Starcraft 2, and LoL, retain a more active player base because they implement a Matchmaking system. I feel that a MM system helps retain players by:

    - Creating clear goals for players to overcome. (Being matched against equal skilled opponents means your skill progression as a player becomes more noticeable, and accessible.)
    - Secures players into their desired area of play. (Casuals keep playing with casuals, pro's with pro's.)
    - Creates a stronger relation between players and the Esports community for NS2. (Providing players with a way to compare themselves to their peers tends to lead players to look for more sources of information such as Tournament VoD's, etc.)

    I honestly feel that providing some kind of dedicated MM system could seriously help new players and veterans get into the type of game they really feel like playing, instead of joining a server, crossing their fingers, and hoping the players are decent enough to give good games.


    The only way matchmaking would work is to have ranked/unranked ques. You'd have casuals playing unranked and ranked for serious tryhard mode people who expect to face stiffer competition.

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