I dont understand how RFK is supposed to get more pub players playing. Isnt that the problem here? when a good player snowballs, he becomes unstoppable.
I dont know how you guys expect a new player to sit through a second game after getting yelled at for feeding, for just trying to learn the game. And then theres the expectation that everyone shouldnt have good gameplay just handed to them, they have to learn and work for it. Do you see how these two things counteract each other?
What you guys really mean is that there is a disconnect between winning fights/doing well, and getting rewarded for it. The connection isnt easily seen i guess? The solution there is to just throw colors and sounds at a player when they win a fight, then direct them at RT.
You say "going the way of NS1" like it's a bad thing, yet not realizing that NS1, and now this game, has survived beyond the likes of games of the time like TFC, DOD, Quake, and still on deck with CS (not sure what the scene is like there with the new game since it's arguably far worse then any previous version of that game).
Actually it is a bad thing if it goes the way of NS1. Especially if you want continued support and updates for this game.
UWE certainly won't, or at least shouldn't, continue to support a game that provides no revenue for them if they want to stay in business. However, the occasional Steam sale may be good enough to provide enough revenue for continued support, even if the player base only has a jump during the sale, then falls back to normal levels and dwindles.
Also... who doesn't want more players than ~1500 during a peak day anyway?.... I think most everyone should agree that the more players the better. It will be very hard for UWE to retain more players than that if they keep doing what they are doing.
UWE has supported Natural Selection since like 2002/03'ish. I think it's safe to say their support will always be there for the game that basically created them.
The first time you played chess and got crushed by an experienced player, did you cry and ask him to change the rules and dumb it down until it became checkers because it's easier?
If they were smart they went and played with another player at their level, which is pretty much exactly what most people here are asking for. The game doesn't need easier mechanics, it needs better tutorials and less pros vs rookies.
UWE has supported Natural Selection since like 2002/03'ish. I think it's safe to say their support will always be there for the game that basically created them.
The difference is NS1 was done during their spare time, all on a volunteer basis, no one was paid. Whereas NS2 is their full time job, therefore it has to support their livelihood and their team has to get paid. I suppose they could also create other games to use as revenue to keep working on NS2.
Either way, they have to pay the people that work for them and makes for a much different environment for decisions that go on in UWE compared to NS1.
Also, there are different levels of support. One day the UWE team could be working on a different game, with just the occasional bug fix for touch up for NS2, that would still be considered "supporting" the game.......
i dont think that there is a reason to compare NS2 with CS ... if you just think logical about the entire thing and about the very beginning of skills NS2 cannot be compared to the one of the most played shooters....
especially when it comes down to luck i think NS2 is more luck than CS at every single point.
just keep in eye:
Performance
Netcode
Gamespeed (NS2 faster than unreal tournament and more likely to lose orientation due to headjumps and one of the worst colorquality of models + maps in gaminghistory grey models to grey walls....)
but yes sure shit happens and you can catch a single bullet up into the head in CS BUT a progamer wont get lucked down that much... you got ur single bullet up in your head before you can even see this guy on your screen as long as he has a good reactiontime and mostly if it is pro vs pro + awp it is all about pingadvantage + netcode or more likely called "Peakingadvantage" some of the worse shit wich came by interp.
If the game is good, especially if it gets constant updates, the numbers might even go up, and it will not experience such radical drops in player count as NS2. Something is obviously wrong. You must be in denial to think otherwise.
You must be new here. It's denial along with obsessive ganging up on and down-voting of all critical voices.
Calling a game "good" is subject. CoD or Farmville dish out the instant gratification generously, but I wouldn't call them good games.
the older versions of call of duty were good (after being modded appropriately to re-balance/remove clutter/trash)
However those games did not have developer support, and the newer games now no longer have user support OR developer support, so they are not good games, in fact they are terrible games
I think what NS2 needs to ramp up is just a bit more exposure. I used to play alot of CoD simply because it was the game that everyone knew about. If there are more videos,fansites, fanmade stuff (sides Mods, Plushies for example lol or Concept Fanart) and possibly just people out in towns and cities exposing this live, it could really change people perspectives on what a "good" game can be like.
I think what NS2 needs to ramp up is just a bit more exposure. I used to play alot of CoD simply because it was the game that everyone knew about. If there are more videos,fansites, fanmade stuff (sides Mods, Plushies for example lol or Concept Fanart) and possibly just people out in towns and cities exposing this live, it could really change people perspectives on what a "good" game can be like.
All that requires a large player base.
Anyway, how much more exposure can you give this game? It's been reviewed and praised everywhere, even the "female marine model" got exposure, it's been on sale so many times... All that's left is some sort of TV advertising campaign, and perhaps flyers to put on car windscreens?
SjN I totally agree with you, like you said maybe 15% of games are really exciting. Most games are stacked marines or no noob marines. I talked before about giving players levels based on their kills like gaining experience. Then implement rules so that the teams experience level stay relatively equal, so you cant have all the experienced players stacked on one side. wanna fix the game unknownworld? work on this problem. I am a hardcore fan of this game.
I think what NS2 needs to ramp up is just a bit more exposure. I used to play alot of CoD simply because it was the game that everyone knew about. If there are more videos,fansites, fanmade stuff (sides Mods, Plushies for example lol or Concept Fanart) and possibly just people out in towns and cities exposing this live, it could really change people perspectives on what a "good" game can be like.
All that requires a large player base.
Anyway, how much more exposure can you give this game? It's been reviewed and praised everywhere, even the "female marine model" got exposure, it's been on sale so many times... All that's left is some sort of TV advertising campaign, and perhaps flyers to put on car windscreens?
Dying would be the wrong term, in my opinion. Stable, leveled, and if you want to be negative, stagnant.
However, I do think there is a problem. Too many gameplay tweaks/changes.
I come back from a few months of being busy and the games changed again! I am fully able to adjust and be successful, but it's not fun!
The Devs need to stick to one damn path and ignore request (or cries) for immediate changes! If the focus was more on content, bug fixes (actual bugs, not skulk hopping), and optimization (so sub i3 gamers can enjoy this game too), this game would be in a better place, in my opinion; attract new players, minimize errors, minimize hardware limitations.
Balance should be been put on hold after 230's-240's builds, because near perfect balance wont happen any time soon.
Also, personally, I think the games too damn slow and easy. The skill ceiling, FPS wise, is now too low; partially hurting the strategic side of the game. Personally, I think the game was better with invisible/fast skulks, a shadow-step that mattered, nade reflecting whips, and "overpowered" bilebomb. I type that from Marine perspective. There was more urgency to get things done. At this point, I'd be happy if weren't any big gameplay changes over the next 5 months, and the focus was content, bug fixes and optimization.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I wonder if it would be better to have the base NS2 game designed around 8v8ish longer more enjoyable games that free up the restrictions for UWE to grow their game, to get new players into the game, and to experiment with new game elements, etc.
Then have a community built MOD separate from the base game (much like the NSL version of Summit) that balances the game suited for 6v6 high skill, fast paced competitive games so that UWE can achieve that goal of NS2 being a serious e-sports game.
Reading this, it sounds like I am describing Balance Test Mod, but those balances were incorporated into the base game, and therefore doesn't the above statement.
Therefor this satisfies both audiences:
Pubbies can get into the game, not have such punishing / crippling experience when playing against experienced players and grow the player base. Players (now matured into the game) looking for a challenge can go into this "competitive mod" fully aware that the rules and gameplay will be different than they are used to.
Left 4 Dead 2 did this, I forget the name of it, it was CAL then OGL...I think...
The base game was...well exactly how it is now, people still play it and enjoy the heck out of it.
The competitive mod for L4D2 changed how scoring worked, weapon availability for more intense gameplay, making every mistake that much more unforgiving, and teamwork much more necessary (less ramboing)
I mean the tools are there, and efforts have already been done, much to why Balance Test Mod even existed.
I think there was unseen harmony when Balance Test and base-game were separate (b249 and below) Not as many complaints, much more players, etc...
The manpower (community) is there to work on said competitive MOD, this should not split UWE's efforts into two areas, in fact it will allow them to spend more time on community requests that make the game fun.
TL; DR
I propose that a new MOD be made to solely satisfy NS2 competitive play to have UWE reach it's e-sports goals, while leaving the direction and development of the base NS2 game in the hands of UWE vision, hopefully with the focus of making the game enjoyable and thriving.
I wonder if it would be better to have the base NS2 game designed around 8v8ish longer more enjoyable games that free up the restrictions for UWE to grow their game, to get new players into the game, and to experiment with new game elements, etc.
Then have a community built MOD separate from the base game (much like the NSL version of Summit) that balances the game suited for 6v6 high skill, fast paced competitive games so that UWE can achieve that goal of NS2 being a serious e-sports game.
Reading this, it sounds like I am describing Balance Test Mod, but those balances were incorporated into the base game, and therefore doesn't the above statement.
Therefor this satisfies both audiences:
Pubbies can get into the game, not have such punishing / crippling experience when playing against experienced players and grow the player base. Players (now matured into the game) looking for a challenge can go into this "competitive mod" fully aware that the rules and gameplay will be different than they are used to.
Left 4 Dead 2 did this, I forget the name of it, it was CAL then OGL...I think...
The base game was...well exactly how it is now, people still play it and enjoy the heck out of it.
The competitive mod for L4D2 changed how scoring worked, weapon availability for more intense gameplay, making every mistake that much more unforgiving, and teamwork much more necessary (less ramboing)
I mean the tools are there, and efforts have already been done, much to why Balance Test Mod even existed.
I think there was unseen harmony when Balance Test and base-game were separate (b249 and below) Not as many complaints, much more players, etc...
The manpower (community) is there to work on said competitive MOD, this should not split UWE's efforts into two areas, in fact it will allow them to spend more time on community requests that make the game fun.
TL; DR
I propose that a new MOD be made to solely satisfy NS2 competitive play to have UWE reach it's e-sports goals, while leaving the direction and development of the base NS2 game in the hands of UWE vision, hopefully with the focus of making the game enjoyable and thriving.
ISE - OUT! *drops mic*
Confogl, Promod, Fresh... they keep renaming it. I think you were referring to the CEVO config in l4d1. Nonetheless, I get your point. The reason why we created mods back in L4D was because the devs were not that involved in the community. We HAD to change the game since vanilla L4D was stupid imbalanced. At least here, in NS2, we have devs who actually consider and apply our input. Separating the game into vanilla and a comp mod kinda defeats the purpose of UWE actually listening to us.
Anyway, although it sounds like a good idea on paper, I would much rather work with UWE to create a better vanilla game.
Confogl, Promod, Fresh... they keep renaming it. I think you were referring to the CEVO config in l4d1. Nonetheless, I get your point. The reason why we created mods back in L4D was because the devs were not that involved in the community. We HAD to change the game since vanilla L4D was stupid imbalanced. At least here, in NS2, we have devs who actually consider and apply our input. Separating the game into vanilla and a comp mod kinda defeats the purpose of UWE actually listening to us.
Anyway, although it sounds like a good idea on paper, I would much rather work with UWE to create a better vanilla game.
True, we have the advantage of having UWE more involved with the community, but the community as a whole contains those who have a voice, those who don't (rookies, non-forum/twitter go-ers) and those who have yet to join.
*B250 happened, and UWE got backlash for "community input". Unfortunately not everyone liked, some even hated it enough to stop playing, and it shows through the slimming of player base (the reason for this post) and negative posts that blame UWE for "not listening", where is the logic in that.
While future updates won't always be bad as B250, and not everyone will be happy, the point is to separate expectations of the two audiences and what they consider to be "fun" to retain and not put off players.
*BT did have input from the community which was formed from the perspective and influence from a smaller demographic of experienced players who have already learned the game. This does not include newer players, to them some of these balance changes push the learning curve to become steeper, making the game that is that much harder to get into.
I disagree with the second last statement, separating Vanilla and Comp DOES allow UWE to listen to the community because then they can impliment those highly requested items, say HMG, Devour, Webs, and whatever UWE wanted in their vision, see how it resonates and effects the growth of the community. It would then have to be tested to see if it fits, needs tweaking or breaks comp play. (much like removing Tier 2 weapons in L4D2 for comp play because they were OP where the infected didn't get stronger)
* This post isn't to discount the efforts from UWE's or of the Balance Test, just an observation of cause and effect to support my theory.
It would be smart to have a tournament mode, where certain features or large balance changes are not implemented until they are proved reasonably balanced in public servers.
Separating competitive and public play indefinitely however seems like a bad idea. The large majority of an esport's audience is going to be players of the game. You want the only difference between public and competitive play to be skill level. Otherwise, your competitive players are simply playing a different game than the rest of the playerbase.
See competitive tf2. 6v6 tf2 bans the majority of unlocks introduced into the game. Many of those unlocks were included to make certain underused classes viable, others are there to provide a counter for something the game didnt have a counter for. Some are just to add variety and different playstyles.
However, 6v6 bans nearly half of the unlocks added to the game, with the majority of the other half being so useless they are never seen in serious games. As a result, when pubbers see comp tf2, they wonder why they dont see their favorite class, or any class other than the usual 4, and why those 4 classes always run the same loadout. This alone turns them off from competitive tf2.
Compare this to dota 2, where any new "wombo combo" flavor of the week in high level competitive games makes it into even the bottom of the bottom shit-tier matchmaking games (speaking from personal experience here, my mmr is very low).
Each update kills mods. Less mods means less servers. Look at promising mods that worked at one time bit cannot keep up with the changes sich as bots and marine vs marine.
All the changes have put me on hiatus for the time being
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Comments like the one above (genuine, justified or not) is is a result of the current state of the game, while they may not always be remedied, steps can be made to retain the majority of players, after all without players, you have no game, and certainty no e-sports.
After all, what is the point of playing a game if it is not fun. Fun in it self can be found in a game based on the players preference, and not everyone finds fun in the same thing.
The large majority of an esport's audience is going to be players of the game. You want the only difference between public and competitive play to be skill level. Otherwise, your competitive players are simply playing a different game than the rest of the playerbase.
You realize they are already effectively playing a different game with modified "tournament modified maps" based on the original ones.
From the current direction of the game, and from what you are suggesting, a rookie to experienced player must play at a tournament competitive level to achieve "fun", that is absurd. People like things in the game ranging from fooling around with friends, mild stress playing in pubbies, to high octane competitive.
I don't think we can compare TF2 or DOTA 2 to NS2. NS2 has 2 asymmetrical teams pitted against each other whereas all the games you've mentioned are mirrored. Which is why I brought up L4D2.
The examples you provided about TF2 does not support your argument, in fact it supports mine, so I'm not sure what we're supposed to get from that.
But to use your example, If a pubber were to see competitive NS2, and see the differences, and if it turns them off from going competitive, how is that a bad thing? Them not going competitive does not mean the game isn't worth making/playing. They could decide to stick to non-competitive and play the game to the level that they want.
and COMPETITIVE play should be reserved to COMPETITIVE players who are interested in the challenge of competitive play, what am I missing here? No one should make that choice for them, and if it is made for them, then they choose not to play, which is what is happening now.
TL;DR
To summarize, we can manage the expectation that to player looking to get into the competitive scene, it means that the game will be different from pub play, therefore they "know what they're getting themselves into" and that aspect and their "pursuit of fun" is their own choice. Don't make it for them.
It's not just about players, its about spectators.
You can make any sort of mod you want for competitive, and the players will play it, as long as enough of the community I'd behind it. It's just going to seperate the casual players that will hopefully make up your viewerbase.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Who is making any choices for anyone? I don't follow. At all. In fact I don't follow anything you just said. What are you trying to imply? Pursuit of fun?
Competitive players are public players that enjoy the game enough to play it in an organised way. Stop making it so black and white.
There is no gain in segregating an already minuscule population into two separate games. It's interesting that you bring up L4D1/L4D2. The confogl and rotoblin mods were developed due to the sheer imbalance and randomness of the games when played in an organised way. Neither game was designed with a high level or coordination or competition in mind so tools needed to be used to make the game suitable. Due to UWEs continued support and emphasis on this being a team game, this shouldn't be necessary.
Even with L4Ds massive playerbases in comparision to NS2, clan matches requiring play on essentially a different game mode didn't do public players interested in playing more seriously any favors. This was a constant problem and things like community mentoring (C4F), lite versions of the configs and even a stripped down version of confogl making it as an official mutation in L4D2 were constantly being attempted to bridge this gap.
Public players didn't 'know what they were getting themselves into'. It was a completely different game from what they were used to.
I kept trying to make the point that the game cannot be designed only for competitive or perfectly skilled players in mind earlier on and have mostly given up, but here goes again.
Competitive players are public players that enjoy the game enough to play it in an organised way. Stop making it so black and white.
The converse is not generally true. Public players are very often not competitive players who are just mucking around.
Public players didn't 'know what they were getting themselves into'. It was a completely different game from what they were used to.
That's mighty arrogant. I would say that most greens that I saw during the sale did know what they were getting into within a game or two. Whether they are used to it or not is irrelevant. A fresh experience can be good or bad, and people walk away from bad experiences.
Edit: I should add that I don't think that the game necessarily caters to competitive players, but if only competitive players stand a good chance of having a good experience every time they start up the game, because only they have the skills required to find any fun in a game, then they're the only ones that are going to be left at the end of the day. Simple market forces at play. Now, if even the competitive players don't think much of the game's balance, then boy have you got a really serious problem.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
The converse is not generally true. Public players are very often not competitive players who are just mucking around.
I agree. I'm also pretty sure I didn't say all public players played competitively, or wanted to.
That's mighty arrogant. I would say that most greens that I saw during the sale did know what they were getting into within a game or two. Whether they are used to it or not is irrelevant. A fresh experience can be good or bad, and people walk away from bad experiences.
I was referring to L4D, and public players interested in playing clan matches being required to play a different game mode.
Edit: I should add that I don't think that the game necessarily caters to competitive players, but if only competitive players stand a good chance of having a good experience every time they start up the game, because only they have the skills required to find any fun in a game, then they're the only ones that are going to be left at the end of the day. Simple market forces at play. Now, if even the competitive players don't think much of the game's balance, then boy have you got a really serious problem.
That's mighty arrogant, I would say most people who have a good experience in this game aren't playing competitive matches also.
Anyway, I mostly attribute this to the lack of a tutorial for an overly complex game. I'm not aware of any game where getting smashed by a player better than you isn't a bad experience - especially when you have no idea what you're doing wrong.
Anyway, I mostly attribute this to the lack of a tutorial for an overly complex game. I'm not aware of any game where getting smashed by a player better than you isn't a bad experience - especially when you have no idea what you're doing wrong.
It isn't getting smashed by a better player that turns people off. It's getting smashed when you're trying to learn the game, and end up either not knowing what to do or how to do what you're supposed to do by the end of the session that turns new people off. Not to mention how some balance issues are just plain... off. People need at least some sense of progression if they invest some time in learning the thing.
Anyway, I don't think tutorial videos are going to help all that much. Seriously, how long can one reasonably expect a new player to sit around and watch videos instead of playing the game? It should be well known that different people learn things differently, and not a high percentage of people actually want to sit around and watch videos to prepare for something such as playing a game. For what it's worth, I actually do research on things like that for my work.
This, coupled with the game being overly complex, is practically a death sentence for anyone who just picked it up for about an hour and went on a server only to get stomped on. If we're lucky, they'll come to the forum and rant about it and perhaps we may be able to convince them to stick around for a while more to see what else the game offers. More likely, they'll simply disappear silently.
Agree 100% about the tutorial videos Requiem. They will do very little for the average joe. They'd rather jump into the game and not have to sit through videos of someone else playing to learn how to play. I'm the same way myself. I'd rather jump in and learn as I'm playing.
Even when they do learn how to play, if they don't have the hand/eye coordination to keep up, they will never do well and will only just get frustrated. This happens a lot with casual players and they end up just getting frustrated from dying over and over with no chance of doing well themselves because of a high skill ceiling. This is one of the reasons why Crits were added in TF2, so even the average joe can get lucky a lot and get kills.
Comments
I dont know how you guys expect a new player to sit through a second game after getting yelled at for feeding, for just trying to learn the game. And then theres the expectation that everyone shouldnt have good gameplay just handed to them, they have to learn and work for it. Do you see how these two things counteract each other?
What you guys really mean is that there is a disconnect between winning fights/doing well, and getting rewarded for it. The connection isnt easily seen i guess? The solution there is to just throw colors and sounds at a player when they win a fight, then direct them at RT.
UWE has supported Natural Selection since like 2002/03'ish. I think it's safe to say their support will always be there for the game that basically created them.
If they were smart they went and played with another player at their level, which is pretty much exactly what most people here are asking for. The game doesn't need easier mechanics, it needs better tutorials and less pros vs rookies.
The difference is NS1 was done during their spare time, all on a volunteer basis, no one was paid. Whereas NS2 is their full time job, therefore it has to support their livelihood and their team has to get paid. I suppose they could also create other games to use as revenue to keep working on NS2.
Either way, they have to pay the people that work for them and makes for a much different environment for decisions that go on in UWE compared to NS1.
Also, there are different levels of support. One day the UWE team could be working on a different game, with just the occasional bug fix for touch up for NS2, that would still be considered "supporting" the game.......
especially when it comes down to luck i think NS2 is more luck than CS at every single point.
just keep in eye:
Performance
Netcode
Gamespeed (NS2 faster than unreal tournament and more likely to lose orientation due to headjumps and one of the worst colorquality of models + maps in gaminghistory grey models to grey walls....)
but yes sure shit happens and you can catch a single bullet up into the head in CS BUT a progamer wont get lucked down that much... you got ur single bullet up in your head before you can even see this guy on your screen as long as he has a good reactiontime and mostly if it is pro vs pro + awp it is all about pingadvantage + netcode or more likely called "Peakingadvantage" some of the worse shit wich came by interp.
Just go to an UWE official server and watch all the green leave when someone goes 87-7 (username "ulti").
You must be new here. It's denial along with obsessive ganging up on and down-voting of all critical voices.
the older versions of call of duty were good (after being modded appropriately to re-balance/remove clutter/trash)
However those games did not have developer support, and the newer games now no longer have user support OR developer support, so they are not good games, in fact they are terrible games
All that requires a large player base.
Anyway, how much more exposure can you give this game? It's been reviewed and praised everywhere, even the "female marine model" got exposure, it's been on sale so many times... All that's left is some sort of TV advertising campaign, and perhaps flyers to put on car windscreens?
A skulkmobile. It would be revolutionary.
However, I do think there is a problem. Too many gameplay tweaks/changes.
I come back from a few months of being busy and the games changed again! I am fully able to adjust and be successful, but it's not fun!
The Devs need to stick to one damn path and ignore request (or cries) for immediate changes! If the focus was more on content, bug fixes (actual bugs, not skulk hopping), and optimization (so sub i3 gamers can enjoy this game too), this game would be in a better place, in my opinion; attract new players, minimize errors, minimize hardware limitations.
Balance should be been put on hold after 230's-240's builds, because near perfect balance wont happen any time soon.
Also, personally, I think the games too damn slow and easy. The skill ceiling, FPS wise, is now too low; partially hurting the strategic side of the game. Personally, I think the game was better with invisible/fast skulks, a shadow-step that mattered, nade reflecting whips, and "overpowered" bilebomb. I type that from Marine perspective. There was more urgency to get things done. At this point, I'd be happy if weren't any big gameplay changes over the next 5 months, and the focus was content, bug fixes and optimization.
Then have a community built MOD separate from the base game (much like the NSL version of Summit) that balances the game suited for 6v6 high skill, fast paced competitive games so that UWE can achieve that goal of NS2 being a serious e-sports game.
Reading this, it sounds like I am describing Balance Test Mod, but those balances were incorporated into the base game, and therefore doesn't the above statement.
Therefor this satisfies both audiences:
Pubbies can get into the game, not have such punishing / crippling experience when playing against experienced players and grow the player base. Players (now matured into the game) looking for a challenge can go into this "competitive mod" fully aware that the rules and gameplay will be different than they are used to.
Left 4 Dead 2 did this, I forget the name of it, it was CAL then OGL...I think...
The base game was...well exactly how it is now, people still play it and enjoy the heck out of it.
The competitive mod for L4D2 changed how scoring worked, weapon availability for more intense gameplay, making every mistake that much more unforgiving, and teamwork much more necessary (less ramboing)
I mean the tools are there, and efforts have already been done, much to why Balance Test Mod even existed.
I think there was unseen harmony when Balance Test and base-game were separate (b249 and below) Not as many complaints, much more players, etc...
The manpower (community) is there to work on said competitive MOD, this should not split UWE's efforts into two areas, in fact it will allow them to spend more time on community requests that make the game fun.
TL; DR
I propose that a new MOD be made to solely satisfy NS2 competitive play to have UWE reach it's e-sports goals, while leaving the direction and development of the base NS2 game in the hands of UWE vision, hopefully with the focus of making the game enjoyable and thriving.
ISE - OUT! *drops mic*
Confogl, Promod, Fresh... they keep renaming it. I think you were referring to the CEVO config in l4d1. Nonetheless, I get your point. The reason why we created mods back in L4D was because the devs were not that involved in the community. We HAD to change the game since vanilla L4D was stupid imbalanced. At least here, in NS2, we have devs who actually consider and apply our input. Separating the game into vanilla and a comp mod kinda defeats the purpose of UWE actually listening to us.
Anyway, although it sounds like a good idea on paper, I would much rather work with UWE to create a better vanilla game.
True, we have the advantage of having UWE more involved with the community, but the community as a whole contains those who have a voice, those who don't (rookies, non-forum/twitter go-ers) and those who have yet to join.
*B250 happened, and UWE got backlash for "community input". Unfortunately not everyone liked, some even hated it enough to stop playing, and it shows through the slimming of player base (the reason for this post) and negative posts that blame UWE for "not listening", where is the logic in that.
While future updates won't always be bad as B250, and not everyone will be happy, the point is to separate expectations of the two audiences and what they consider to be "fun" to retain and not put off players.
*BT did have input from the community which was formed from the perspective and influence from a smaller demographic of experienced players who have already learned the game. This does not include newer players, to them some of these balance changes push the learning curve to become steeper, making the game that is that much harder to get into.
I disagree with the second last statement, separating Vanilla and Comp DOES allow UWE to listen to the community because then they can impliment those highly requested items, say HMG, Devour, Webs, and whatever UWE wanted in their vision, see how it resonates and effects the growth of the community. It would then have to be tested to see if it fits, needs tweaking or breaks comp play. (much like removing Tier 2 weapons in L4D2 for comp play because they were OP where the infected didn't get stronger)
* This post isn't to discount the efforts from UWE's or of the Balance Test, just an observation of cause and effect to support my theory.
Separating competitive and public play indefinitely however seems like a bad idea. The large majority of an esport's audience is going to be players of the game. You want the only difference between public and competitive play to be skill level. Otherwise, your competitive players are simply playing a different game than the rest of the playerbase.
See competitive tf2. 6v6 tf2 bans the majority of unlocks introduced into the game. Many of those unlocks were included to make certain underused classes viable, others are there to provide a counter for something the game didnt have a counter for. Some are just to add variety and different playstyles.
However, 6v6 bans nearly half of the unlocks added to the game, with the majority of the other half being so useless they are never seen in serious games. As a result, when pubbers see comp tf2, they wonder why they dont see their favorite class, or any class other than the usual 4, and why those 4 classes always run the same loadout. This alone turns them off from competitive tf2.
Compare this to dota 2, where any new "wombo combo" flavor of the week in high level competitive games makes it into even the bottom of the bottom shit-tier matchmaking games (speaking from personal experience here, my mmr is very low).
All the changes have put me on hiatus for the time being
After all, what is the point of playing a game if it is not fun. Fun in it self can be found in a game based on the players preference, and not everyone finds fun in the same thing.
You realize they are already effectively playing a different game with modified "tournament modified maps" based on the original ones.
From the current direction of the game, and from what you are suggesting, a rookie to experienced player must play at a tournament competitive level to achieve "fun", that is absurd. People like things in the game ranging from fooling around with friends, mild stress playing in pubbies, to high octane competitive.
I don't think we can compare TF2 or DOTA 2 to NS2. NS2 has 2 asymmetrical teams pitted against each other whereas all the games you've mentioned are mirrored. Which is why I brought up L4D2.
The examples you provided about TF2 does not support your argument, in fact it supports mine, so I'm not sure what we're supposed to get from that.
But to use your example, If a pubber were to see competitive NS2, and see the differences, and if it turns them off from going competitive, how is that a bad thing? Them not going competitive does not mean the game isn't worth making/playing. They could decide to stick to non-competitive and play the game to the level that they want.
and COMPETITIVE play should be reserved to COMPETITIVE players who are interested in the challenge of competitive play, what am I missing here? No one should make that choice for them, and if it is made for them, then they choose not to play, which is what is happening now.
TL;DR
To summarize, we can manage the expectation that to player looking to get into the competitive scene, it means that the game will be different from pub play, therefore they "know what they're getting themselves into" and that aspect and their "pursuit of fun" is their own choice. Don't make it for them.
You can make any sort of mod you want for competitive, and the players will play it, as long as enough of the community I'd behind it. It's just going to seperate the casual players that will hopefully make up your viewerbase.
Competitive players are public players that enjoy the game enough to play it in an organised way. Stop making it so black and white.
There is no gain in segregating an already minuscule population into two separate games. It's interesting that you bring up L4D1/L4D2. The confogl and rotoblin mods were developed due to the sheer imbalance and randomness of the games when played in an organised way. Neither game was designed with a high level or coordination or competition in mind so tools needed to be used to make the game suitable. Due to UWEs continued support and emphasis on this being a team game, this shouldn't be necessary.
Even with L4Ds massive playerbases in comparision to NS2, clan matches requiring play on essentially a different game mode didn't do public players interested in playing more seriously any favors. This was a constant problem and things like community mentoring (C4F), lite versions of the configs and even a stripped down version of confogl making it as an official mutation in L4D2 were constantly being attempted to bridge this gap.
Public players didn't 'know what they were getting themselves into'. It was a completely different game from what they were used to.
The converse is not generally true. Public players are very often not competitive players who are just mucking around.
That's mighty arrogant. I would say that most greens that I saw during the sale did know what they were getting into within a game or two. Whether they are used to it or not is irrelevant. A fresh experience can be good or bad, and people walk away from bad experiences.
Edit: I should add that I don't think that the game necessarily caters to competitive players, but if only competitive players stand a good chance of having a good experience every time they start up the game, because only they have the skills required to find any fun in a game, then they're the only ones that are going to be left at the end of the day. Simple market forces at play. Now, if even the competitive players don't think much of the game's balance, then boy have you got a really serious problem.
I agree. I'm also pretty sure I didn't say all public players played competitively, or wanted to.
I was referring to L4D, and public players interested in playing clan matches being required to play a different game mode.
That's mighty arrogant, I would say most people who have a good experience in this game aren't playing competitive matches also.
Anyway, I mostly attribute this to the lack of a tutorial for an overly complex game. I'm not aware of any game where getting smashed by a player better than you isn't a bad experience - especially when you have no idea what you're doing wrong.
I've had mine : http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyO3JtXztfkK0EeC-vGhtZQ
Which as certainty helped, but yes there is that exposure problem to new players.
To help remedy this, I've posted mine on the forums, and on the guide section on steam.
As a result of that work, I'm working with UWE right now to bring more readily accessible short tutorials to be implemented in the ready room.
Efforts are being made, and UWE has been listening
Source: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/131224/tutorial-video-changes
It isn't getting smashed by a better player that turns people off. It's getting smashed when you're trying to learn the game, and end up either not knowing what to do or how to do what you're supposed to do by the end of the session that turns new people off. Not to mention how some balance issues are just plain... off. People need at least some sense of progression if they invest some time in learning the thing.
Anyway, I don't think tutorial videos are going to help all that much. Seriously, how long can one reasonably expect a new player to sit around and watch videos instead of playing the game? It should be well known that different people learn things differently, and not a high percentage of people actually want to sit around and watch videos to prepare for something such as playing a game. For what it's worth, I actually do research on things like that for my work.
This, coupled with the game being overly complex, is practically a death sentence for anyone who just picked it up for about an hour and went on a server only to get stomped on. If we're lucky, they'll come to the forum and rant about it and perhaps we may be able to convince them to stick around for a while more to see what else the game offers. More likely, they'll simply disappear silently.
Even when they do learn how to play, if they don't have the hand/eye coordination to keep up, they will never do well and will only just get frustrated. This happens a lot with casual players and they end up just getting frustrated from dying over and over with no chance of doing well themselves because of a high skill ceiling. This is one of the reasons why Crits were added in TF2, so even the average joe can get lucky a lot and get kills.