Aliens really have problems finishing a Marine team off/killing a Marine base
I think with reduced GL/FT spam, stronger Onos this will be pretty much fixed.
Marines can make comebacks/turtle+wait so easily, it feels unfair. Aliens meanwhile can hardly make a comeback. Often Aliens lose when they really should have won, or it takes forever to end the game.
GL + Jetpack spam harassment and OP Exos/bad Onos play a big part in this.
cost of upgrades between aliens and marines and how much it costs to recover the upgrades if lost
Worst thing can happen to Marines is loss of Proto for 40 res and 5 second build time.
Losing a Hive is 90 res and minutes + lack of biomass upgrades + possibly lack of evolution upgrades!
Onos egg is 100 res, meanwhile dropped Exos can't die.
This has always been a bit of a problem, 250 just makes it worse. Aliens going from 2 hives to 1 is normally a death blow, I think it's an issue of having to re-research their upgrades. Even if marines lose their main base once they've rebuilt an armory, arms lab and proto they have nearly all their tech accessible again. That's what a total cost of 65? Aliens have to spend 60 just to get one of their three traits back to max, a maxed out hive is 90. If pushed back to one base marines can still get ALL their tech, aliens get around 1/3. Either make tech points more important and research lost with buildings for marines or make alien tech more forgiving.
when infest is taken down near a res, its nearly impossible to save the res in time once the marine is killed because then you need to send a drifter/gorge there in time to heal it and wait for the infest time.
Yes. No need for fast receding infestation if Marines can build on it anyways.
+1 to that. I like that it makes gorges more useful but it feels a bit too punishing.
I have to correct myself, the Drifter Armor regen ability is quite neat (and costs only 1 res which is very fair). Great for healing a bunch of players nibbling on a phase gate.
Still not sure what the speed thing is good for though.
If hallucinations had better AI (like automatically following their originals) or weren't un-selectable so often, that would also be nice
I think that you ruined the game with Build 250. The main idea of NS is that there are two unique races but now they have too much in common. Don't forget about this main idea please. I like it so much since first NS and I don't want it to become a shit.
Seen it so many times 0_0. Maybe I click too much...It'd make a good username.
Yes, you're right. Every Khamm knows.
And it's infuriating. Quickly need to put a Cyst next to a Harvester dying in ultra speed? NO, HAVE THIS RANDOM COOLDOWN! THIS IS FUN ISN'T IT???!!!
Also, Exo + GL/FT spam is really bad. I didn't realise how bad it is initially.
The combination splash damage + lots of damage is just ridiculous, Aliens have no splash damage thing unless you count Xenocide (bile = ARC, only useful against buildings).
GL is basically a shotgun with explosive splash damage rounds, and the FT finishes off everything and disables all abilities you might use (<- this is a really bad mechanic and should be removed, it's like Devour which doesn't allow Marines to do anything while being ****ed).
So many games Aliens hold 3 Hives and are then overrun by an unstoppable spam train. Counterrushing doesn't work because Onos is shit, the Marine train is faster now, Marines can build a quick CC without having to wait for infestation to recede, as well as the long Alien build times and huge costs.
Had a fantastic game on tram, one of best I can remember in long while, and there were plenty of new players involved.
I felt the alien side should have won sooner, but all the exos and grenades kept them back for ages, compared to older builds anyway. Exos move so quickly, and the rail gun seems to have assisted aim making it really potent.
And how come exos move so quietly? The sound volume isn't so different from a running skulk.
Just had two rounds then with an Exo rush at 5 minutes and 8 minutes with marines holding about 5 and 3 res respectively. Even with bile aliens couldn't do crap....
Another few examples of the amazing 250 bull$h|t Test (BT) mod....
Just had two rounds then with an Exo rush at 5 minutes and 8 minutes with marines holding about 5 and 3 res respectively. Even with bile aliens couldn't do crap....
Another few examples of the amazing 250 bull$h|t Test (BT) mod....
That was possible before as well. Nice try though.
People just have absolutely no game sense and can't tell game balance from team balance. This was why we couldn't have nice things for a long time, but now we got them anyway so WE WIN!
That was possible before as well. Nice try though.
I've played countless hours of NS2, not once have I ever seen an EXO train rush in 5 minutes. It's a joke because these a meant to be high end / late game,. imagine an Oni rush at 5 minutes.
That was possible before as well. Nice try though.
I've played countless hours of NS2, not once have I ever seen an EXO train rush in 5 minutes. It's a joke because these a meant to be high end / late game,. imagine an Oni rush at 5 minutes.
Countless?
Exos got cheaper in pres but weaker, so they appear earlier but are more easily killed. The same with alien lifeforms; unupgraded fades and oni appear earlier but are weaker before they can afford upgrades (although somebody could say that the new fade has carapace on by default and an arguably superior unupgraded movement). There is no problem here. Maybe you should play a second set of countless hours and then try again.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I've been in the hospital for 17 days because of a work related accident. This means I haven't yet played b250 (though I did give the BT mod a few goes before). Instead, I've had to make due with this thread and many others like it.
I would like to thank all participants in these threads for the rage, the drama, the valid arguments and the hissy fits alike, and the subsequent entertainment that I've personally gotten from it.
I look forward to playing b250 when I'm finally released and can go home. I'm not afraid of having to relearn how to play any lifeforms; I managed to pick up how they worked before and I'm capable of learning new things in general, so the idea excites me.
tl;dr - Thanks for entertaining a hospital bed-bound Flaterectomy; you've all done well in that regard.
I've been in the hospital for 17 days because of a work related accident. This means I haven't yet played b250 (though I did give the BT mod a few goes before). Instead, I've had to make due with this thread and many others like it.
I would like to thank all participants in these threads for the rage, the drama, the valid arguments and the hissy fits alike, and the subsequent entertainment that I've personally gotten from it.
I look forward to playing b250 when I'm finally released and can go home. I'm not afraid of having to relearn how to play any lifeforms; I managed to pick up how they worked before and I'm capable of learning new things in general, so the idea excites me.
tl;dr - Thanks for entertaining a hospital bed-bound Flaterectomy; you've all done well in that regard.
Sorry to hear that and I hope your feeling better.
Now you can experience the best NS2 build yet that has ruined the game. Or maybe its the worst NS2 build that has rejuvenated the game. Its hard to tell sometimes...
That was possible before as well. Nice try though.
I've played countless hours of NS2, not once have I ever seen an EXO train rush in 5 minutes. It's a joke because these a meant to be high end / late game,. imagine an Oni rush at 5 minutes.
Wow, really? I've done loads of 5 min exo rushes before b250. Hoah is correct, this is nothing new
That was possible before as well. Nice try though.
I've played countless hours of NS2, not once have I ever seen an EXO train rush in 5 minutes. It's a joke because these a meant to be high end / late game,. imagine an Oni rush at 5 minutes.
Wow, really? I've done loads of 5 min exo rushes before b250. Hoah is correct, this is nothing new
Ah ok fair enough. I'm surprised I haven't seen more of them. Prior to 250, quickest I saw was 10 and was still amazed at that lol
Ah ok fair enough. I'm surprised I haven't seen more of them. Prior to 250, quickest I saw was 10 and was still amazed at that lol
It depends on the number of players on a server, I imagine. But I'm certain you already could rush single-gun exos in 249 easily in under 10 minutes.
Now, on normal-skilled normal-sized (or larger) servers especially, it was a pretty stupid idea to do such an exo rush. Not only would aliens be able to have 2 hives with multiple bilebombing gorges protected by the hive and crag's healing, the aliens could also divert just a few of their forces to take down one of the marine base(s) to gain hive location and score building kills, especially if the alien commander assisted this effort with a shift. In such a rush with the proper reaction by the aliens, it was easier for the aliens to come out victorious than the marines.
But of course, that was back then. You cannot defend a hive so easily now.
Worst of all, you cannot have shifts spawning eggs outside the hive - it is another change that I really, really dislike. Killing the eggs in or near even a well-defended hive is way easier now.
Add to that that crags and gorges are worse and flamers and GLs and Exos better (against the exact factors involved in a hive defense, such as the exo and flamers being able to way more easily survive bile bombs and skulks)... well, there's not much of a chance to succeed here.
The counterattack aspect also completely falls flat since shifts with eggs were pretty essential to it. Even if you now had gorge tunnels -which are very significantly slower and thus a lot less useful-, you couldn't possibly get multiple of them up (in case the first one gets destroyed) and then also rapidly direct the required exact amount of aliens where they need to go. Never mind that you probably cannot set one or two up ad-hoc, you require gorges to actually sneak there and get them up and besides. You get almost no advanced warning of a rush-type marine attack with its instant forward bases on infested territory.
Basically, it's the "happy times" for marine hive rushes right now. Aliens will take longer to reinforce, have less staying power with gorges and are overall weaker in defense. They're also less able to loose hives (it's a bigger blow even if they manage to place one immediately where a marine base was), and weaker on counter-attacks on marine bases
I think Energize (or what it is called) is bad and should be removed again. It feels cheap and unrewarding from both sides.
As Marines, you don't even have to care about Power much. You can use Beacon or Gate anyways, if necessary. It's not very exciting that, if you can't stop Power from going down, even with Nanoshield, you still have lost nothing except a few res.
As Aliens, you'd have to destroy Power and Obs and Gate to be sure, so you might as well skip Power. Also, Aliens can't prevent it, and lose their main comeback ability (even more important now with the unstoppable Marine trains).
Energize effectively removes Power Nodes from the game, except for cosmetics (lighting) and minor building placement restrictions. They were more fun when they mattered.
The same can be said about Infestation, now that Marines can build on it. Apparently, 100% stealth Ninja PGs were something that absolutely had to be included. But the Infestation mechanic also was more fun when it meant more.
I think Energize (or what it is called) is bad and should be removed again. It feels cheap and unrewarding from both sides.
As Marines, you don't even have to care about Power much. You can use Beacon or Gate anyways, if necessary. It's not very exciting that, if you can't stop Power from going down, even with Nanoshield, you still have lost nothing except a few res.
As Aliens, you'd have to destroy Power and Obs and Gate to be sure, so you might as well skip Power. Also, Aliens can't prevent it, and lose their main comeback ability (even more important now with the unstoppable Marine trains).
Energize effectively removes Power Nodes from the game, except for cosmetics (lighting) and minor building placement restrictions. They were more fun when they mattered.
The same can be said about Infestation, now that Marines can build on it. Apparently, 100% stealth Ninja PGs were something that absolutely had to be included. But the Infestation mechanic also was more fun when it meant more.
It used to be a real pain losing an entire base because from a couple of gorges. Energize seemed really cheap first few times I saw it used but I think it shifts the focus of the attack off the power nodes and onto structures. Having said that, power nodes aren't so important now so they could possibly have a small health nerf.
Infestation got nerfed too much at once. The fast recede, slow growth was implemented because marines couldn't build on it and so it could be used as a massive delay strategy. Now that marines can build on infestation it should be safe to buff it back to fast growth, slow recede (maybe fast recede by flamethrower). An idea I'd like the see tried is a subtle shadow effect given off by marine buildings on infestation (like we used to have for marines).
I think Energize (or what it is called) is bad and should be removed again. It feels cheap and unrewarding from both sides.
As Marines, you don't even have to care about Power much. You can use Beacon or Gate anyways, if necessary. It's not very exciting that, if you can't stop Power from going down, even with Nanoshield, you still have lost nothing except a few res.
As Aliens, you'd have to destroy Power and Obs and Gate to be sure, so you might as well skip Power. Also, Aliens can't prevent it, and lose their main comeback ability (even more important now with the unstoppable Marine trains).
Energize effectively removes Power Nodes from the game, except for cosmetics (lighting) and minor building placement restrictions. They were more fun when they mattered.
The same can be said about Infestation, now that Marines can build on it. Apparently, 100% stealth Ninja PGs were something that absolutely had to be included. But the Infestation mechanic also was more fun when it meant more.
Definately two keypoints that will makes some happy, and some others disapointed.
Losing an NS2 key feature that I did like a lot, and having the feeling to go back to NS1 "anywhere anytime" model, I am deeply disapointed ... yep ... very deeply indeed.
Power and Cysts where the logistic dimension, one chained (cysts) one unchained (power). It's gone. Shame.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I love the speed infestation recedes.. I've been wanting that change for years now.
I see very little reason to revert this.. Made no sense waiting for ages to build an area you just re claimed with a whole team of players. When marine areas are cleared out, aliens can build instantly.
The asymmetry card does not apply when it comes to equal access to tech and resources
Comments
This has always been a bit of a problem, 250 just makes it worse. Aliens going from 2 hives to 1 is normally a death blow, I think it's an issue of having to re-research their upgrades. Even if marines lose their main base once they've rebuilt an armory, arms lab and proto they have nearly all their tech accessible again. That's what a total cost of 65? Aliens have to spend 60 just to get one of their three traits back to max, a maxed out hive is 90. If pushed back to one base marines can still get ALL their tech, aliens get around 1/3. Either make tech points more important and research lost with buildings for marines or make alien tech more forgiving.
+1 to that. I like that it makes gorges more useful but it feels a bit too punishing.
Quite how that slipped into the patch!
Still not sure what the speed thing is good for though.
If hallucinations had better AI (like automatically following their originals) or weren't un-selectable so often, that would also be nice
Isn't it COMMANDERERROR_MUST_WAIT?
Seen it so many times 0_0. Maybe I click too much...It'd make a good username.
It hurts my brain, make it stop
Alien comm has to spend more than 10% of the game in the hive I guess.
And it's infuriating. Quickly need to put a Cyst next to a Harvester dying in ultra speed? NO, HAVE THIS RANDOM COOLDOWN! THIS IS FUN ISN'T IT???!!!
Also, Exo + GL/FT spam is really bad. I didn't realise how bad it is initially.
The combination splash damage + lots of damage is just ridiculous, Aliens have no splash damage thing unless you count Xenocide
GL is basically a shotgun with explosive splash damage rounds, and the FT finishes off everything and disables all abilities you might use (<- this is a really bad mechanic and should be removed, it's like Devour which doesn't allow Marines to do anything while being ****ed).
So many games Aliens hold 3 Hives and are then overrun by an unstoppable spam train. Counterrushing doesn't work because Onos is shit, the Marine train is faster now, Marines can build a quick CC without having to wait for infestation to recede, as well as the long Alien build times and huge costs.
Someone must have been *very* afraid of 0.0000000001 HP cyst spam while forgetting that Aliens actually need cysts
I felt the alien side should have won sooner, but all the exos and grenades kept them back for ages, compared to older builds anyway. Exos move so quickly, and the rail gun seems to have assisted aim making it really potent.
And how come exos move so quietly? The sound volume isn't so different from a running skulk.
Another few examples of the amazing 250 bull$h|t Test (BT) mod....
People just have absolutely no game sense and can't tell game balance from team balance. This was why we couldn't have nice things for a long time, but now we got them anyway so WE WIN!
I've played countless hours of NS2, not once have I ever seen an EXO train rush in 5 minutes. It's a joke because these a meant to be high end / late game,. imagine an Oni rush at 5 minutes.
Countless?
Exos got cheaper in pres but weaker, so they appear earlier but are more easily killed. The same with alien lifeforms; unupgraded fades and oni appear earlier but are weaker before they can afford upgrades (although somebody could say that the new fade has carapace on by default and an arguably superior unupgraded movement). There is no problem here. Maybe you should play a second set of countless hours and then try again.
I would like to thank all participants in these threads for the rage, the drama, the valid arguments and the hissy fits alike, and the subsequent entertainment that I've personally gotten from it.
I look forward to playing b250 when I'm finally released and can go home. I'm not afraid of having to relearn how to play any lifeforms; I managed to pick up how they worked before and I'm capable of learning new things in general, so the idea excites me.
tl;dr - Thanks for entertaining a hospital bed-bound Flaterectomy; you've all done well in that regard.
Now you can experience the best NS2 build yet that has ruined the game. Or maybe its the worst NS2 build that has rejuvenated the game. Its hard to tell sometimes...
Wow, really? I've done loads of 5 min exo rushes before b250. Hoah is correct, this is nothing new
Ah ok fair enough. I'm surprised I haven't seen more of them. Prior to 250, quickest I saw was 10 and was still amazed at that lol
Now, on normal-skilled normal-sized (or larger) servers especially, it was a pretty stupid idea to do such an exo rush. Not only would aliens be able to have 2 hives with multiple bilebombing gorges protected by the hive and crag's healing, the aliens could also divert just a few of their forces to take down one of the marine base(s) to gain hive location and score building kills, especially if the alien commander assisted this effort with a shift. In such a rush with the proper reaction by the aliens, it was easier for the aliens to come out victorious than the marines.
But of course, that was back then. You cannot defend a hive so easily now.
Worst of all, you cannot have shifts spawning eggs outside the hive - it is another change that I really, really dislike. Killing the eggs in or near even a well-defended hive is way easier now.
Add to that that crags and gorges are worse and flamers and GLs and Exos better (against the exact factors involved in a hive defense, such as the exo and flamers being able to way more easily survive bile bombs and skulks)... well, there's not much of a chance to succeed here.
The counterattack aspect also completely falls flat since shifts with eggs were pretty essential to it. Even if you now had gorge tunnels -which are very significantly slower and thus a lot less useful-, you couldn't possibly get multiple of them up (in case the first one gets destroyed) and then also rapidly direct the required exact amount of aliens where they need to go. Never mind that you probably cannot set one or two up ad-hoc, you require gorges to actually sneak there and get them up and besides. You get almost no advanced warning of a rush-type marine attack with its instant forward bases on infested territory.
Basically, it's the "happy times" for marine hive rushes right now. Aliens will take longer to reinforce, have less staying power with gorges and are overall weaker in defense. They're also less able to loose hives (it's a bigger blow even if they manage to place one immediately where a marine base was), and weaker on counter-attacks on marine bases
Damnit, I'm strugling not to flush the damn thing away.
One can't do less instinctive stuff on Kham's point of view. Help !
As Marines, you don't even have to care about Power much. You can use Beacon or Gate anyways, if necessary. It's not very exciting that, if you can't stop Power from going down, even with Nanoshield, you still have lost nothing except a few res.
As Aliens, you'd have to destroy Power and Obs and Gate to be sure, so you might as well skip Power. Also, Aliens can't prevent it, and lose their main comeback ability (even more important now with the unstoppable Marine trains).
Energize effectively removes Power Nodes from the game, except for cosmetics (lighting) and minor building placement restrictions. They were more fun when they mattered.
It used to be a real pain losing an entire base because from a couple of gorges. Energize seemed really cheap first few times I saw it used but I think it shifts the focus of the attack off the power nodes and onto structures. Having said that, power nodes aren't so important now so they could possibly have a small health nerf.
Infestation got nerfed too much at once. The fast recede, slow growth was implemented because marines couldn't build on it and so it could be used as a massive delay strategy. Now that marines can build on infestation it should be safe to buff it back to fast growth, slow recede (maybe fast recede by flamethrower). An idea I'd like the see tried is a subtle shadow effect given off by marine buildings on infestation (like we used to have for marines).
In my estimation, this is a positive change.
Definately two keypoints that will makes some happy, and some others disapointed.
Losing an NS2 key feature that I did like a lot, and having the feeling to go back to NS1 "anywhere anytime" model, I am deeply disapointed ... yep ... very deeply indeed.
Power and Cysts where the logistic dimension, one chained (cysts) one unchained (power). It's gone. Shame.
I see very little reason to revert this.. Made no sense waiting for ages to build an area you just re claimed with a whole team of players. When marine areas are cleared out, aliens can build instantly.
The asymmetry card does not apply when it comes to equal access to tech and resources