ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
You can't balance mechanic A with B if B requires C to be balanced and also C requires D. Everything is connected and is why doing it in a gradual way as many people have suggested will take forever and will induce even more tears than BT already does.
You can't balance mechanic A with B if B requires C to be balanced and also C requires D. Everything is connected and is why doing it in a gradual way as many people have suggested will take forever and will induce even more tears than BT already does.
Fixing it gradually is actually much better than a massive overhaul as a massive overhaul forces you to just do a gradual balancing to fix the problems the massive overhaul brings.
Not a fan of how much macs block your vision. Had a comm use macs to heal us and while that's great having 2 macs with you in battle is annoying as fuck. Caused me to die a few times not being able to see shit. Also the drifter building noise might be a bit loud.
The added lift you get while spiking and strafing is very nice though it would be nice if shift did something again. In live it slows you down and can help create a steady platform to spike from. In BT it doesn't do any thing.
Nope, change is happening in one big bang which i'm thankful for. All the changes link together, you can't cherry pick the ones you want and integrate them into the game without the rest.
yeah and would take 1 year to achieve the same magnitude of improvements, which was exactly my point.
Yes, but a lot of the changes are pointless or make the game worse. Making the game better wouldn't take too many changes and could be close to done by now if they had started in March.
If it has somehow been done, why does it seem like he is ignoring them? Many of the changes don't make sense in the context of improving the game to attract casual players.
So in the past two pages there have been many things people have no suggested as have been part of adjusting for casual players (lowering skill floor) .. and you have responded.
So your question has been answered by some, and probably more will follow as well, but now i believe its your turn!
Please explain what things *specifically* are being ignored?
What changes *specifically* don't make sense and why?
yeah and would take 1 year to achieve the same magnitude of improvements, which was exactly my point.
Yes, but a lot of the changes are pointless or make the game worse. Making the game better wouldn't take too many changes and could be close to done by now if they had started in March.
As we disagree with what is wrong with the game, the required fixes will naturally be different. The ones I want and got, if implemented in a time scale you suggest, would take forever *Snip* Keep it clean, no namecalling - Ironhorse So what exactly is the point of arguing this timescale when we're having different conversations in the first place?
Better to take it on the chin than have 50 variations of "this will ruin the game for x reason" every week for the next year which will undoubtedly ruin any higher level conversation with the constant need to explain basic concepts to some of the more emotional individuals that post on this forum.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2013
I'm not a fan of balance mod, and will not be looking forward to it coming to vanilla. I don't see why it can't be left as an optional mod for those who want to use it rather than force it on everyone. Forcing things on your customers is never a good thing to do, people like to have options. It's too much too late into development for a massive overhaul like this. Yeah there may be one or two things I like, but I like it way more now than it will be. I hope someone makes an "original build" mod that will be like it is now so people still have options.
I'm not a fan of balance mod, and will not be looking forward to it coming to vanilla. I don't see why it can't be left as an optional mod for those who want to use it rather than force it on everyone. Forcing things on your customers is never a good thing to do, people like to have options. It's too much too late into development for a massive overhaul like this. Yeah there may be one or two things I like, but I like it way more now than it will be. I hope someone makes an "original build" mod that will be like it is now so people still have options.
I bet "NS2 classic (not NS1 remake)" mod will be popular.
Balance mod does not address any of the flaws with ns2. As a competitive gamer in several different games as well as someone who has helped design balance mods, I have unique insight that nobody else I'm aware of in this community has. Let's take a look at a couple problems:
1) There is still little or no strategy to the game. The basis of any strategy game is the ability to make effective choices that can gain a leverage, and the ability for the opponent to make choices to counter the original choice. There is no system in place for this to occur, and these things are extremely unlikely to occur by accident. This is absolutely fundamental to the RTS/TBS genre, and the fact that there is no system in place to occur in ns2 shows me people clearly have no idea how to design a strategy game. The balance mod is new, so people are still feeling it out, but it will probably regress to one or two optimal ways to play the game in short order.
2) Excessive punishment for alien play. The combat classes should be roughly equal as they are upgraded. Their strength should be in their synergy, not having the fade being a straight upgrade to the skulk. This punishes worse players more than necessary and also creates balance issues like fade explosions. The way NS1 designed aliens does not hold up to modern game design standards.
The changes do really nothing for the game except in the extreme short term. It does nothing except change the game quite a bit for newer players and delay the inevitable for competitive players (that is, the reduction to an optimal, stale gameplay). There are a number of other serious issues with the core design of the game that are not properly addressed by the balance mod, and cannot be addressed without a much bigger overhaul of the game.
And yes, I have played the balance mod quite extensively and have been keeping up with the competitive play, so don't give me that nonsense. I haven't even touched several other issues, as I could easily fill up several pages.
Well, When people started making complaints about the stale gameplay of ns2 and the lack of strategic gameplay, HENCE the BT MOD. they expect that a team that lacks skill to match the likes of archaea,
Realistically, This game is still all about engagements and how many you win and lose. If you win the crucial engagements you win. Wether or not you go quick arms lab or phase gates first.
BT mod atm is "new" and fun and exciting, Only time will tell if people get bored shitless again.
Majority of the issues, Be it AUS, US, EU is that there are not enough top tier teams to go neck to neck and try and take the reigns. Be it the top, second team that always gives up and cbf playing anymore. Stale competition = Stale gamplay = dead game.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
So far, in almost every game, the alien comms haven't figured out how to upgrade biomass, and once they do, they haven't figured out how to upgrade abilities. They also haven't figured out how to build with drifters. The UI is apparently not discoverable enough.
However, this didn't prevent us from winning most of our games.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
omg I missed this all untill now.
I played BT mod a while back and I dislike some changes with a passion. I severely hope they didnt make it in. (not on the list, but who knows)
Then again BT also has so much beautiful changes which are nothing but good. A lot is basicly going back to ns1 which I found much broader in terms of strategy. (building near a hive area, yays).
Of course many stuff is shiny new and was not even in NS1, but seems to work on the same principle as NS1 did. I love most of the changes of BT and im curious how this all will turn out to be.
You do make some good points about gameplay, though. You should talk more about the game and less about yourself.
Pages of people saying the mod has been vetted by "the community" and is therefore perfect, but when a member of "the community" dislikes it they are not special and nobody cares about them. Awesome.
e: To clarify, the complete removal of graduated bites, as opposed to (for example) scaling it down to two possible results instead of three.
The bite cone for max damage is larger in BT mod than vanilla. As a casual I think thats a good compromise with it now just being a plain hit or miss.
If it's just going to be a plain hit or miss then widening the 75 cone is a no brainer. the question is whether or not it needs to be regressed to fully just hit or miss (spoiler: It doesn't).
But for the most part, every change stands pretty much on it's own because something was deemed flawed about it's previous concept. [...] a lot of individual pictures that address individual problems.
Please tell me then: What glaring problem in vanilla Fade movement does the BT Fade movement address? I've seen this question asked a lot of times, by a lot of different people, but not a single answer yet.
Glaring and glaring.. The Vanilla fade movement (as well as the other life forms) had a much lower skill ceiling than in balance mod. Once you learn to move around somewhat efficently you will probably notice this as well.
AiorosJoin Date: 2003-03-24Member: 14850Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
another point:
tres drops removed replaced with tres to pres.
so this change scales better for larger servers 8 vs 8, 10 vs 10. where tres drops was something used in comp games.
the new skulk movement is realy easy to access for new players, where the old walljump .... 95% of casuals didnt do it or never even got close to master it.
i see even rookies walljump on the BT after explaining it to them 1 time.
sewlek told us that he started the bt mod on the free 2play weekend, with 95% rookies on the server using all their feedback.
first few month he played with rookies/casuals only.
everyone still thinking this mod will hurt casual players truly never played the BT mod at all.
stop arguing about stuff u didnt even tryed out.
But for the most part, every change stands pretty much on it's own because something was deemed flawed about it's previous concept. [...] a lot of individual pictures that address individual problems.
Please tell me then: What glaring problem in vanilla Fade movement does the BT Fade movement address? I've seen this question asked a lot of times, by a lot of different people, but not a single answer yet.
The same applies to Armories not healing armor. There's no reason for the change. There is no problem being fixed. It feels like a lot of this mod is change for the sake of change.
Actually, a lot of these changes seem to be pushing the game towards a more FPS style of game and moving away from the current focus of teamwork + strategy. Currently, teamwork + strategy is the bigger focus of the game as is shown by the game being far more balanced in 10v10 and 12v12 than it is in 6v6. Games of 6v6 simply don't have enough people to perform a lot of the roles needed (Umbra Lerk, Spores Lerk, Shotgun/JP Marine, Welder Marine, Exo Marine) and so gameplay becomes very repetitive and stale.
However, 6v6 is really good for the FPS part of the game as higher player counts tend to make the game more spammy and decrease the importance of each individual player's skill (things you always hear competitive players complain about when talking about 20+ player servers). With this mod, a larger focus is being put on the FPS portion of the game making the game better at lower player counts but worse at higher player counts because of the smaller reliance on specific roles and switching to more general-purpose playstyles. An example would be that in vanilla, a Marine has to make a decision on whether or not to buy a Welder. Do you buy a Welder and support your fellow Marines in the field, save your pRes for a later purchase, such as an exo, or do you spend all of your pRes on Mines and Shotguns? When you play Marines in the BT mod, it is just: buy a Welder, buy a Welder, buy a Welder because they are necessary.
This leads to players who prefer lower-player-count servers generally liking the BT mod and players who prefer higher-player-count servers generally disliking the BT mod. This mod is likely to split the community between the higher-player-count servers, who tend to like teamwork + strategy more, and the lower-player-count servers, who want to focus more on the FPS portion of the game. Higher-player-count servers will probably resort to modding the game back to the current vanilla (possibly with a few tweaks, like scaled spawning), or they will just stop playing because the game they love is gone.
Glaring and glaring.. The Vanilla fade movement (as well as the other life forms) had a much lower skill ceiling than in balance mod. Once you learn to move around somewhat efficently you will probably notice this as well.
That isn't true. The BT Fade has a lower skill ceiling than the vanilla Fade. The vanilla Fade can do everything the BT Fade can do with roughly the same amount of skill, but it can also do things the BT Fade can't do. The vanilla Fade has a greater variety of movement capabilities which can be combined in many different ways creating a higher skill ceiling. It may feel like it has a higher skill ceiling since you aren't used to it, but it doesn't. However, it does have a higher skill floor, but that isn't a good thing.
There is barely any strategy in 18+ servers, it all comes down to, who has the most in one spot, that's it, and you saying that people perform different roles on higher count servers, which is bull, every match you get mines, shotguns, jetpacks and maybe exos, it rarely moves off that, you'd see more experimenting on the lower player counts, not the higher.
It's the same as aliens, most just save for Fade or Onos, most don't stay Lerk, Skulk or gorge past mid game.
18+ servers = combat with some objectives.
I believe you should play some 6v6 before commenting, also us and them mentality that's seem to have grown on this forum about competitive players and public players, the later being both, needs to go away.
About the welders and armoury which is the only point you brought up that has any real relevance, it was put in to stop the armoury being too good in essence, and also to foster more teamwork, to be fair it's not really missed in BT.
Comments
Fixing it gradually is actually much better than a massive overhaul as a massive overhaul forces you to just do a gradual balancing to fix the problems the massive overhaul brings.
The added lift you get while spiking and strafing is very nice though it would be nice if shift did something again. In live it slows you down and can help create a steady platform to spike from. In BT it doesn't do any thing.
Yes, but a lot of the changes are pointless or make the game worse. Making the game better wouldn't take too many changes and could be close to done by now if they had started in March.
So your question has been answered by some, and probably more will follow as well, but now i believe its your turn!
Please explain what things *specifically* are being ignored?
What changes *specifically* don't make sense and why?
As we disagree with what is wrong with the game, the required fixes will naturally be different. The ones I want and got, if implemented in a time scale you suggest, would take forever *Snip* Keep it clean, no namecalling - Ironhorse So what exactly is the point of arguing this timescale when we're having different conversations in the first place?
Better to take it on the chin than have 50 variations of "this will ruin the game for x reason" every week for the next year which will undoubtedly ruin any higher level conversation with the constant need to explain basic concepts to some of the more emotional individuals that post on this forum.
e: To clarify, the complete removal of graduated bites, as opposed to (for example) scaling it down to two possible results instead of three.
The bite cone for max damage is larger in BT mod than vanilla. As a casual I think thats a good compromise with it now just being a plain hit or miss.
I bet "NS2 classic (not NS1 remake)" mod will be popular.
1) There is still little or no strategy to the game. The basis of any strategy game is the ability to make effective choices that can gain a leverage, and the ability for the opponent to make choices to counter the original choice. There is no system in place for this to occur, and these things are extremely unlikely to occur by accident. This is absolutely fundamental to the RTS/TBS genre, and the fact that there is no system in place to occur in ns2 shows me people clearly have no idea how to design a strategy game. The balance mod is new, so people are still feeling it out, but it will probably regress to one or two optimal ways to play the game in short order.
2) Excessive punishment for alien play. The combat classes should be roughly equal as they are upgraded. Their strength should be in their synergy, not having the fade being a straight upgrade to the skulk. This punishes worse players more than necessary and also creates balance issues like fade explosions. The way NS1 designed aliens does not hold up to modern game design standards.
The changes do really nothing for the game except in the extreme short term. It does nothing except change the game quite a bit for newer players and delay the inevitable for competitive players (that is, the reduction to an optimal, stale gameplay). There are a number of other serious issues with the core design of the game that are not properly addressed by the balance mod, and cannot be addressed without a much bigger overhaul of the game.
And yes, I have played the balance mod quite extensively and have been keeping up with the competitive play, so don't give me that nonsense. I haven't even touched several other issues, as I could easily fill up several pages.
Realistically, This game is still all about engagements and how many you win and lose. If you win the crucial engagements you win. Wether or not you go quick arms lab or phase gates first.
BT mod atm is "new" and fun and exciting, Only time will tell if people get bored shitless again.
Majority of the issues, Be it AUS, US, EU is that there are not enough top tier teams to go neck to neck and try and take the reigns. Be it the top, second team that always gives up and cbf playing anymore. Stale competition = Stale gamplay = dead game.
However, this didn't prevent us from winning most of our games.
I played BT mod a while back and I dislike some changes with a passion. I severely hope they didnt make it in. (not on the list, but who knows)
Then again BT also has so much beautiful changes which are nothing but good. A lot is basicly going back to ns1 which I found much broader in terms of strategy. (building near a hive area, yays).
Of course many stuff is shiny new and was not even in NS1, but seems to work on the same principle as NS1 did. I love most of the changes of BT and im curious how this all will turn out to be.
You do make some good points about gameplay, though. You should talk more about the game and less about yourself.
tres drops removed replaced with tres to pres.
so this change scales better for larger servers 8 vs 8, 10 vs 10. where tres drops was something used in comp games.
the new skulk movement is realy easy to access for new players, where the old walljump .... 95% of casuals didnt do it or never even got close to master it.
i see even rookies walljump on the BT after explaining it to them 1 time.
sewlek told us that he started the bt mod on the free 2play weekend, with 95% rookies on the server using all their feedback.
first few month he played with rookies/casuals only.
everyone still thinking this mod will hurt casual players truly never played the BT mod at all.
stop arguing about stuff u didnt even tryed out.
The same applies to Armories not healing armor. There's no reason for the change. There is no problem being fixed. It feels like a lot of this mod is change for the sake of change.
Actually, a lot of these changes seem to be pushing the game towards a more FPS style of game and moving away from the current focus of teamwork + strategy. Currently, teamwork + strategy is the bigger focus of the game as is shown by the game being far more balanced in 10v10 and 12v12 than it is in 6v6. Games of 6v6 simply don't have enough people to perform a lot of the roles needed (Umbra Lerk, Spores Lerk, Shotgun/JP Marine, Welder Marine, Exo Marine) and so gameplay becomes very repetitive and stale.
However, 6v6 is really good for the FPS part of the game as higher player counts tend to make the game more spammy and decrease the importance of each individual player's skill (things you always hear competitive players complain about when talking about 20+ player servers). With this mod, a larger focus is being put on the FPS portion of the game making the game better at lower player counts but worse at higher player counts because of the smaller reliance on specific roles and switching to more general-purpose playstyles. An example would be that in vanilla, a Marine has to make a decision on whether or not to buy a Welder. Do you buy a Welder and support your fellow Marines in the field, save your pRes for a later purchase, such as an exo, or do you spend all of your pRes on Mines and Shotguns? When you play Marines in the BT mod, it is just: buy a Welder, buy a Welder, buy a Welder because they are necessary.
This leads to players who prefer lower-player-count servers generally liking the BT mod and players who prefer higher-player-count servers generally disliking the BT mod. This mod is likely to split the community between the higher-player-count servers, who tend to like teamwork + strategy more, and the lower-player-count servers, who want to focus more on the FPS portion of the game. Higher-player-count servers will probably resort to modding the game back to the current vanilla (possibly with a few tweaks, like scaled spawning), or they will just stop playing because the game they love is gone.
That isn't true. The BT Fade has a lower skill ceiling than the vanilla Fade. The vanilla Fade can do everything the BT Fade can do with roughly the same amount of skill, but it can also do things the BT Fade can't do. The vanilla Fade has a greater variety of movement capabilities which can be combined in many different ways creating a higher skill ceiling. It may feel like it has a higher skill ceiling since you aren't used to it, but it doesn't. However, it does have a higher skill floor, but that isn't a good thing.
no, nothing changes :P
It's the same as aliens, most just save for Fade or Onos, most don't stay Lerk, Skulk or gorge past mid game.
18+ servers = combat with some objectives.
I believe you should play some 6v6 before commenting, also us and them mentality that's seem to have grown on this forum about competitive players and public players, the later being both, needs to go away.
About the welders and armoury which is the only point you brought up that has any real relevance, it was put in to stop the armoury being too good in essence, and also to foster more teamwork, to be fair it's not really missed in BT.