Glaring and glaring.. The Vanilla fade movement (as well as the other life forms) had a much lower skill ceiling than in balance mod. Once you learn to move around somewhat efficently you will probably notice this as well.
That isn't true. The BT Fade has a lower skill ceiling than the vanilla Fade. The vanilla Fade can do everything the BT Fade can do with roughly the same amount of skill, but it can also do things the BT Fade can't do. The vanilla Fade has a greater variety of movement capabilities which can be combined in many different ways creating a higher skill ceiling. It may feel like it has a higher skill ceiling since you aren't used to it, but it doesn't. However, it does have a higher skill floor, but that isn't a good thing.
I too prefer the vanilla fade, but that's because it's easier to use and quite overpowered for it is, many times I've seen a fade destroy a team, a team of them can
destroy a marine team in matter of seconds.
I believe the balance fade was made to lessen that effect, no longer can they solo marines as easily, it now requires more teamwork.
Though once you get the movement down, while the vanilla fade has more combat maneuverability, the BT fade is super quick.
Though my main theory is that sewlek wanted to nerf the Fade.
Glaring and glaring.. The Vanilla fade movement (as well as the other life forms) had a much lower skill ceiling than in balance mod. Once you learn to move around somewhat efficently you will probably notice this as well.
That isn't true. The BT Fade has a lower skill ceiling than the vanilla Fade. The vanilla Fade can do everything the BT Fade can do with roughly the same amount of skill, but it can also do things the BT Fade can't do. The vanilla Fade has a greater variety of movement capabilities which can be combined in many different ways creating a higher skill ceiling. It may feel like it has a higher skill ceiling since you aren't used to it, but it doesn't. However, it does have a higher skill floor, but that isn't a good thing.
I too prefer the vanilla fade, but that's because it's easier to use and quite overpowered for it is, many times I've seen a fade destroy a team, a team of them can
destroy a marine team in matter of seconds.
I believe the balance fade was made to lessen that effect, no longer can they solo marines as easily, it now requires more teamwork.
Though once you get the movement down, while the vanilla fade has more combat maneuverability, the BT fade is super quick.
Though my main theory is that sewlek wanted to nerf the Fade.
The Fade is really only overpowered in low-player-count games as they lack the firepower to take them down. This is unfortunate as it seems the only way to fix the Fade in those low-player-count games is to ruin the Fade in high-player-count servers.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2013
@robotix this has nothing to do with casual vs comp or bt vs vanilla.
Lifeforms not scaling well with playercounts is a fundamental design issue that comes with the pres system - using leftover designs from when you knew there was only going to be 1 or 2 per team from tres in NS1.
@robotix this has nothing to do with casual vs comp or bt vs vanilla.
Lifeforms not scaling well with playercounts is a fundamental design issue that comes with the pres system - using leftover designs from when you knew there was only going to be 1 or 2 per team from tres in NS1.
I don't see what that has to do with any of my previous 3 posts other than the last one.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2013
@robotix Because unless you have a method of eliminating that design flaw in the pres system that effects both vanilla and BT fades, you'll need to come up with another reason of why the BT changes reducing OP fades wasn't justified.
@robotix Because unless you have a method of eliminating that design flaw in the pres system that effects both vanilla and BT fades, you'll need to come up with another reason of why the BT changes reducing OP fades wasn't justified.
Okay, so it was the last post. You should be more specific about which post you are referring to. :P
Currently, the BT mod shifts the balance of Fades from OP at low-player-counts and fine at high-player-counts to fine at low-player-counts and UP at high-player-counts. It isn't justified simply because you are just taking the problems of one and forcing it on the other making some people happy and others angry. You're just shifting the problem around.
I've been thinking about it, though, and I believe the only way to truly solve it is to actively scale either health or damage based on player-count which could prove problematic and complicated. The only other thing I can think of is to actively segregate by player count and balance them on their own which has its own problems.
At this point, I think the way to make as many people happy as possible is to make the BT mod an optional addition to a server without forcing it on everyone. It could be a filter in the server browser for NS2 1.0 and NS2 2.0 (or something to that effect). This will potentially save a lot of player loss from the people that don't like the mod.
That isn't true. The BT Fade has a lower skill ceiling than the vanilla Fade. The vanilla Fade can do everything the BT Fade can do with roughly the same amount of skill, but it can also do things the BT Fade can't do. The vanilla Fade has a greater variety of movement capabilities which can be combined in many different ways creating a higher skill ceiling. It may feel like it has a higher skill ceiling since you aren't used to it, but it doesn't. However, it does have a higher skill floor, but that isn't a good thing.
Nope, wrong.
BT fade does not have double jump, apart from that it can do everything + more.
BT has
- Bhop
- Blink w/ momentum
- Shadow Step wo/ momentum, additionally you can SS up/down/diagonal which you can't do in vanilla
Live has
- Double jump
- Blink wo/ momentum
- Shadow step w/ momentum
I'll tell you why the skill ceiling is higher:
- Requirement of energy management when traversing map & combat
- Your movement is now predictable, hence you need to make more decisions of how you will start a combat engagement, how to move in combat (instead of spamming low energy cost shadow step & blink) and appropriate escape routes. This all comes down to movement simply being more predictable
So you loose double jump, but gain bhop + vertical & diagonal shadow step and everything else is the same....
Please tell me why the skill ceiling is lower, cause you don't make sense. Fades are not dieing in BT because they are not used to it, they are dieing because the fade movement has been made more predictable, easier to track, increased RoF on shotgun and every single marine carries a welder now cause they are so cheap.
I don't know how I feel. I just want to know why Flayra passed the torch to someone else. I feel the torch was handed to Sewlek and he wanted to add his own touches to this game and I'm just wondering, why? No offense to Sewlek, I'm sure you have put a TON of time into this (and all with good intentions), I just want to know where its coming from. Like UWE was all about showing how close Aliens and Marines win/loss rations were a couple months back.... So with that in mind, why such drastic changes? I feel like the game is taking a right turn (for better or worse is still to be determined).
I don't know how I feel. I just want to know why Flayra passed the torch to someone else. I feel the torch was handed to Sewlek and he wanted to add his own touches to this game and I'm just wondering, why? No offense to Sewlek, I'm sure you have put a TON of time into this (and all with good intentions), I just want to know where its coming from. Like UWE was all about showing how close Aliens and Marines win/loss rations were a couple months back.... So with that in mind, why such drastic changes? I feel like the game is taking a right turn (for better or worse is still to be determined).
*edit* grammarz
Well I don't know that, but I can tell you that sewlek has plenty experience playing NS, and I can also tell you that he's paying close attention to both public and competitive matches, and trying out new things just to see how it'd work, then changing them back. You can see this if you actively play on a BT server where he's present, the mod will update during map changes even
All of this experimenting is to see what works out and what doesn't; so something you become use to one day can drastically change the next, and then be reverted back
I'm glad such changes are happening, very few developers take this route and become so involved with the community playing.. we actually feel like we're involved in helping shape a game that we love to play. Many games you'd be lucky to get a developer response on a forum, heck you'd be lucky if you even got to talk to a developer via support e-mail!! Let alone in ns2 you can actually play with developers in-game, talk to them in-game, talk to them on the forum, heck you can even talk to them on twitter!
These things go a long way, and rate them as a top development team in my book
I don't know how I feel. I just want to know why Flayra passed the torch to someone else. I feel the torch was handed to Sewlek and he wanted to add his own touches to this game and I'm just wondering, why? No offense to Sewlek, I'm sure you have put a TON of time into this (and all with good intentions), I just want to know where its coming from. Like UWE was all about showing how close Aliens and Marines win/loss rations were a couple months back.... So with that in mind, why such drastic changes? I feel like the game is taking a right turn (for better or worse is still to be determined).
*edit* grammarz
Well I don't know that, but I can tell you that sewlek has plenty experience playing NS, and I can also tell you that he's paying close attention to both public and competitive matches, and trying out new things just to see how it'd work, then changing them back. You can see this if you actively play on a BT server where he's present, the mod will update during map changes even
All of this experimenting is to see what works out and what doesn't; so something you become use to one day can drastically change the next, and then be reverted back
I'm glad such changes are happening, very few developers take this route and become so involved with the community playing.. we actually feel like we're involved in helping shape a game that we love to play. Many games you'd be lucky to get a developer response on a forum, heck you'd be lucky if you even got to talk to a developer via support e-mail!! Let alone in ns2 you can actually play with developers in-game, talk to them in-game, talk to them on the forum, heck you can even talk to them on twitter!
These things go a long way, and rate them as a top development team in my book
I'm unsure why to the snarkiness, however, you didn't answer my question and I didn't ask for your opinion. Thanks!
You've just discovered the sole nefarious purpose of the BT mod.
Everything in the BT mod has been scaled down 1-2 notches to somehow enforce a slower pace and more thoughtful approach to things, you can't just hold the shift key down as a fade anymore and blitz through entire groups of marines as fade, that action has been determined too skill less to keep in the game.
You can't expect to walk into 3 marines in BT as fade and live or be able to deal significant damage to them anymore, the way you move around the map has drastically changed so in turn the way you enter combat and when you get out will have to change. I do agree with people about the amount of half measuring tho, the BT mod is so eager to bring back NS 1 fade but not focus or metabolism AND nerfed crag heal? Brought back alien bhop but not marine bhop? Allowing marine buildings to be built on cysts but keeping tech nodes?
@robotix this has nothing to do with casual vs comp or bt vs vanilla.
Lifeforms not scaling well with playercounts is a fundamental design issue that comes with the pres system - using leftover designs from when you knew there was only going to be 1 or 2 per team from tres in NS1.
Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it. There's no way for a pub fade to mitigate the 10 dmg per second each additional marine in a room on a higher pop server can put on him with BT fade except "not be in the room". NS1 fades were at least self sufficient with metabolise and eventually focus, NS2 live fades have an OP mechanic that has allowed them to warp all over the map and in combat, BT fades get a dick in the arse with no added benefits.
How many fades either comp or pub can go on a tear but SS their way into a wall or object and get caught and banked...replace SS with a significantly weaker movement system that is repetitive while working or requires significant amounts of energy to break predictable movement, how many more are going to get sacked in the first 2-3 weeks of live?
Is the new movement system so enjoyable and intuitive to use that people won't mind being crapped on by in situations they would have previously gotten away?
Does the new movement system provide fade players a new alternative way of engaging fights or moving around the map people in live can't do already?
Gonna go with no, majority of people might not embrace the new fade as much as the "NS1 vets" and comp players scrimming 2-3 hours a night for the last 2 weeks have. Gonna go out on a leg here and say certainly a minority of people won't enjoy the last xxx amount of hours of game play invalidated and turned on its head because other people found it too simple and lacking depth in a setting they rarely if ever have played.
tl;dr: BT mod is trying to mitigate the effects of the res system by dulling down the impact of each life form and its potential "life form explosion" in a 6v6 setting at the expense of every other mode of game play.
Wow, I have left NS2 for a couple of months (due to personal reasons) but have been keeping up with things every few days...
I read this, and It's making me not want to come back, there are lots of things moved and changed in this list that have removed several strategies within the game...
things such as...
"MACs and Drifters are no longer able to attack" - This was great for small games (2v2/3v3 etc)
"multiple MACs are no longer able to weld the same target" - you do this as well as reducing exo's armour? - I can see exo's being pretty useless now, again, anyone who said they were OP were just bad against exo's, a SINGLE decent fade or a couple of skulks could kill an exo in a few seconds...
"removed MAC EMP" - This was awesome for stopping gorges healing, made for an interesting strategy..
"whips no longer whack grenades" - that was one of the most awesome defensive attributes of the aliens, other than actual life forms, they only have hydras now, which are much easier to kill than turrets...
"shadowstep does not add any momentum anymore" - This was VERY useful for helping energy management, and when moving about the map(s), as blink costs way too much energy, and as such was used to go into, during, and escape from battle, shadow step was used to get around the map...
There are lots more things I don't like about this, but i'll reserve judgement on those.. these are the ones that stood out the most to me...
It's pretty unfair to judge the balance mod which has 100+ changes from a change log. If you have played it, my apologies... However I'll counter the points you have written.
"MACs and Drifters are no longer able to attack" - This was great for small games (2v2/3v3 etc)
The game really should not be balanced taking into considering 2v2 or 3v3 games. Also Drifters have three abilities now, enzyme, hallucination and a cloud that heals alien armour.
"multiple MACs are no longer able to weld the same target" - you do this as well as reducing exo's armour? - I can see exo's being pretty useless now, again, anyone who said they were OP were just bad against exo's, a SINGLE decent fade or a couple of skulks could kill an exo in a few seconds...
Nope, EXO's are still amazingly strong. Ofcourse a lone exo would die in a few seconds, but we are talking about a team game here.
"whips no longer whack grenades" - that was one of the most awesome defensive attributes of the aliens, other than actual life forms, they only have hydras now, which are much easier to kill than turrets...
This is actually in vanilla NS2 as well as BT.
"shadowstep does not add any momentum anymore" - This was VERY useful for helping energy management, and when moving about the map(s), as blink costs way too much energy, and as such was used to go into, during, and escape from battle, shadow step was used to get around the map...
You start with blink now and it has momentum & bhop. Shadow step when researched can SS 90 degrees up or at any angle. You actually have more freedom
Apart from the change to fade movement, those things you mentioned are really quite minor....
I really hope they make this an alternative game mode because whenever I played balance test 4 out of 5 games went to aliens. Maybe I got on a bad team every time, but coming from multiple people these changes will not be good for NS2. Now if the decision is final of making these changes then please make the NS2 before these changes an alternative game mode. That way people have the choice of doing the old NS2 that people, and me love. Then having the updated one that others love.
Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it.
Wut
They don't and its not and no..
How did you even?
Alien Pres sinks were needed for both pubs and comp.. And Regardless of player count.
Scaling is universally lowering the skill floor, regardless of player count.
The new movement provides a higher skill ceiling along with a more fluid system, a sense of feedback, added meta games with depth and boundaries... Regardless of player count.
There's no way for a pub fade to mitigate the 10 dmg per second each additional marine in a room on a higher pop server can put on him with BT fade except "not be in the room".
Sorry but the same scenario occurs regardless of BT mod or vanilla beyond a number and is instead dependent on player count, this time.
The fade 's damage, HP, armor and to a lesser degree, movement in the bt mod, all contribute to lessening the fade ball.... specifically for pubs... Where you are more likely to end up with flocks of fades and have less of a coordinated and equally varying team of lifeforms.
My mind is still reeling how you came to the exact opposite conclusions?..
Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it.
What do you mean by large player counts? 16 player servers? Cause it's fine in 16 player servers.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I hope bt just goes live asap. The amount of people here that pick one line in the changelog and judge everything based on that is insane. The bt mod is a big step in the right direction. yes, it does have some issues. but so does vanilla, and i would argue vanilla has much bigger issues than bt. For the average player there isn't much change anyway, its the commanders that will need to adapt.
IMO bad idea. Speeding up movement further will lead to more chaos, more sharp turn confusion, and quakey-jumpy gameplay.
Good skulks can move around pretty fast around the map now, my guess is that this change is to compensate a little for that. I couldn't see any jumpy gameplay coming from it or any other negative consquence.
I hope bt just goes live asap. The amount of people here that pick one line in the changelog and judge everything based on that is insane. The bt mod is a big step in the right direction. yes, it does have some issues. but so does vanilla, and i would argue vanilla has much bigger issues than bt. For the average player there isn't much change anyway, its the commanders that will need to adapt.
I hope it doesn't go live in its current state. There are definitely some good things in there, but I for one would like to see some changes rolled back or significantly altered, especially everything to do with the lerk which us currently horrible in bt. In other areas, I think the bt mod could go further: remove carapace and swap for something else. It's been said plenty of times, it's either so good you always have it (stale) or not good enough and you never have it (also stale). I'm not sure it's practical to find the middle ground.
The name balance test is also a bit misleading, which probably doesn't help!
Ultimately, the management of these changes is likely to be as crucial as the content of said changes.
I really like some of the changes in btmod, especially fixing the "carapace explosion" problem that we have currently.
The changes to the movement code are unnecessary and more importantly, not well described. The article here explains nothing about how to perform or even names the technique as bunnyhopping/strafejumping. Walljumping is also still in the mod but not mentioned.
The earlier changelogs were more explicit in changes to movement code but so many small incremental changes were made that at some point it became hard to keep track of exactly what had changed from the original version; just a downside of having a major balance project run by a single person. In any case how to actually take advantage of the new movement code isn't difficult to explain concisely, and if you're someone who would actually understand the implications made by changing specific variables then you probably know enough to find a more technical source of information.
In any case I'm surprised that anyone would claim that the rewrite is unnecessary given how few options skulks have in the current version of live. The lerk/fade changes are perhaps more subjective but from what I remember because of the movement rewrite lerks needed to effectively be partially reworked to try and get something close to the live lerk (and eliminate shark lerking which was deemed to be an undesirable exploit).
I think we can all agree that proper ingame tutorials teaching people how to move around effectively as the different alien lifeforms would be a lovely thing to have, but that isn't a BT vs live issue; in fact, the basics of skulk/fade movement seem to be a lot simpler to explain now (pogo hopping is a huge deal and seems to have been largely ignored in discussions on the forum re: accessability of movement systems) which can only be a good thing.
Comments
I too prefer the vanilla fade, but that's because it's easier to use and quite overpowered for it is, many times I've seen a fade destroy a team, a team of them can
destroy a marine team in matter of seconds.
I believe the balance fade was made to lessen that effect, no longer can they solo marines as easily, it now requires more teamwork.
Though once you get the movement down, while the vanilla fade has more combat maneuverability, the BT fade is super quick.
Though my main theory is that sewlek wanted to nerf the Fade.
The Fade is really only overpowered in low-player-count games as they lack the firepower to take them down. This is unfortunate as it seems the only way to fix the Fade in those low-player-count games is to ruin the Fade in high-player-count servers.
Lifeforms not scaling well with playercounts is a fundamental design issue that comes with the pres system - using leftover designs from when you knew there was only going to be 1 or 2 per team from tres in NS1.
I don't see what that has to do with any of my previous 3 posts other than the last one.
Okay, so it was the last post. You should be more specific about which post you are referring to. :P
Currently, the BT mod shifts the balance of Fades from OP at low-player-counts and fine at high-player-counts to fine at low-player-counts and UP at high-player-counts. It isn't justified simply because you are just taking the problems of one and forcing it on the other making some people happy and others angry. You're just shifting the problem around.
I've been thinking about it, though, and I believe the only way to truly solve it is to actively scale either health or damage based on player-count which could prove problematic and complicated. The only other thing I can think of is to actively segregate by player count and balance them on their own which has its own problems.
At this point, I think the way to make as many people happy as possible is to make the BT mod an optional addition to a server without forcing it on everyone. It could be a filter in the server browser for NS2 1.0 and NS2 2.0 (or something to that effect). This will potentially save a lot of player loss from the people that don't like the mod.
Nope, wrong.
BT fade does not have double jump, apart from that it can do everything + more.
BT has
- Bhop
- Blink w/ momentum
- Shadow Step wo/ momentum, additionally you can SS up/down/diagonal which you can't do in vanilla
Live has
- Double jump
- Blink wo/ momentum
- Shadow step w/ momentum
I'll tell you why the skill ceiling is higher:
- Requirement of energy management when traversing map & combat
- Your movement is now predictable, hence you need to make more decisions of how you will start a combat engagement, how to move in combat (instead of spamming low energy cost shadow step & blink) and appropriate escape routes. This all comes down to movement simply being more predictable
So you loose double jump, but gain bhop + vertical & diagonal shadow step and everything else is the same....
Please tell me why the skill ceiling is lower, cause you don't make sense. Fades are not dieing in BT because they are not used to it, they are dieing because the fade movement has been made more predictable, easier to track, increased RoF on shotgun and every single marine carries a welder now cause they are so cheap.
*edit* grammarz
Well I don't know that, but I can tell you that sewlek has plenty experience playing NS, and I can also tell you that he's paying close attention to both public and competitive matches, and trying out new things just to see how it'd work, then changing them back. You can see this if you actively play on a BT server where he's present, the mod will update during map changes even
All of this experimenting is to see what works out and what doesn't; so something you become use to one day can drastically change the next, and then be reverted back
I'm glad such changes are happening, very few developers take this route and become so involved with the community playing.. we actually feel like we're involved in helping shape a game that we love to play. Many games you'd be lucky to get a developer response on a forum, heck you'd be lucky if you even got to talk to a developer via support e-mail!! Let alone in ns2 you can actually play with developers in-game, talk to them in-game, talk to them on the forum, heck you can even talk to them on twitter!
These things go a long way, and rate them as a top development team in my book
I'm unsure why to the snarkiness, however, you didn't answer my question and I didn't ask for your opinion. Thanks!
P.S. You do know "that".
You've just discovered the sole nefarious purpose of the BT mod.
Everything in the BT mod has been scaled down 1-2 notches to somehow enforce a slower pace and more thoughtful approach to things, you can't just hold the shift key down as a fade anymore and blitz through entire groups of marines as fade, that action has been determined too skill less to keep in the game.
You can't expect to walk into 3 marines in BT as fade and live or be able to deal significant damage to them anymore, the way you move around the map has drastically changed so in turn the way you enter combat and when you get out will have to change. I do agree with people about the amount of half measuring tho, the BT mod is so eager to bring back NS 1 fade but not focus or metabolism AND nerfed crag heal? Brought back alien bhop but not marine bhop? Allowing marine buildings to be built on cysts but keeping tech nodes?
Pretending the new pres life form costs, HP/damage scaling and movement have nothing to do with 6v6... BT mod is tailored to 6v6 with everyone else left to deal with it. There's no way for a pub fade to mitigate the 10 dmg per second each additional marine in a room on a higher pop server can put on him with BT fade except "not be in the room". NS1 fades were at least self sufficient with metabolise and eventually focus, NS2 live fades have an OP mechanic that has allowed them to warp all over the map and in combat, BT fades get a dick in the arse with no added benefits.
How many fades either comp or pub can go on a tear but SS their way into a wall or object and get caught and banked...replace SS with a significantly weaker movement system that is repetitive while working or requires significant amounts of energy to break predictable movement, how many more are going to get sacked in the first 2-3 weeks of live?
Is the new movement system so enjoyable and intuitive to use that people won't mind being crapped on by in situations they would have previously gotten away?
Does the new movement system provide fade players a new alternative way of engaging fights or moving around the map people in live can't do already?
Gonna go with no, majority of people might not embrace the new fade as much as the "NS1 vets" and comp players scrimming 2-3 hours a night for the last 2 weeks have. Gonna go out on a leg here and say certainly a minority of people won't enjoy the last xxx amount of hours of game play invalidated and turned on its head because other people found it too simple and lacking depth in a setting they rarely if ever have played.
tl;dr: BT mod is trying to mitigate the effects of the res system by dulling down the impact of each life form and its potential "life form explosion" in a 6v6 setting at the expense of every other mode of game play.
I read this, and It's making me not want to come back, there are lots of things moved and changed in this list that have removed several strategies within the game...
things such as...
"MACs and Drifters are no longer able to attack" - This was great for small games (2v2/3v3 etc)
"multiple MACs are no longer able to weld the same target" - you do this as well as reducing exo's armour? - I can see exo's being pretty useless now, again, anyone who said they were OP were just bad against exo's, a SINGLE decent fade or a couple of skulks could kill an exo in a few seconds...
"removed MAC EMP" - This was awesome for stopping gorges healing, made for an interesting strategy..
"whips no longer whack grenades" - that was one of the most awesome defensive attributes of the aliens, other than actual life forms, they only have hydras now, which are much easier to kill than turrets...
"shadowstep does not add any momentum anymore" - This was VERY useful for helping energy management, and when moving about the map(s), as blink costs way too much energy, and as such was used to go into, during, and escape from battle, shadow step was used to get around the map...
There are lots more things I don't like about this, but i'll reserve judgement on those.. these are the ones that stood out the most to me...
It's pretty unfair to judge the balance mod which has 100+ changes from a change log. If you have played it, my apologies... However I'll counter the points you have written.
The game really should not be balanced taking into considering 2v2 or 3v3 games. Also Drifters have three abilities now, enzyme, hallucination and a cloud that heals alien armour.
Nope, EXO's are still amazingly strong. Ofcourse a lone exo would die in a few seconds, but we are talking about a team game here.
This is actually in vanilla NS2 as well as BT.
You start with blink now and it has momentum & bhop. Shadow step when researched can SS 90 degrees up or at any angle. You actually have more freedom
Apart from the change to fade movement, those things you mentioned are really quite minor....
They don't and its not and no..
How did you even?
Alien Pres sinks were needed for both pubs and comp.. And Regardless of player count.
Scaling is universally lowering the skill floor, regardless of player count.
The new movement provides a higher skill ceiling along with a more fluid system, a sense of feedback, added meta games with depth and boundaries... Regardless of player count. Sorry but the same scenario occurs regardless of BT mod or vanilla beyond a number and is instead dependent on player count, this time.
The fade 's damage, HP, armor and to a lesser degree, movement in the bt mod, all contribute to lessening the fade ball.... specifically for pubs... Where you are more likely to end up with flocks of fades and have less of a coordinated and equally varying team of lifeforms.
My mind is still reeling how you came to the exact opposite conclusions?..
What do you mean by large player counts? 16 player servers? Cause it's fine in 16 player servers.
What does that means exactly? No more glancing hits?
- marines can always sprint, no more stamina
IMO bad idea. Speeding up movement further will lead to more chaos, more sharp turn confusion, and quakey-jumpy gameplay.
Some changes sound really good though.
Good skulks can move around pretty fast around the map now, my guess is that this change is to compensate a little for that. I couldn't see any jumpy gameplay coming from it or any other negative consquence.
1) yes
2) marines usually strafe and shoot and don't sprint in circles. I'd say the change doesn't change much for toe to toe combat.
After reading some of your posts, I can't shake the feeling that you're just an elaborate troll. No one can really think this way.
I hope it doesn't go live in its current state. There are definitely some good things in there, but I for one would like to see some changes rolled back or significantly altered, especially everything to do with the lerk which us currently horrible in bt. In other areas, I think the bt mod could go further: remove carapace and swap for something else. It's been said plenty of times, it's either so good you always have it (stale) or not good enough and you never have it (also stale). I'm not sure it's practical to find the middle ground.
The name balance test is also a bit misleading, which probably doesn't help!
Ultimately, the management of these changes is likely to be as crucial as the content of said changes.
The changes to the movement code are unnecessary and more importantly, not well described. The article here explains nothing about how to perform or even names the technique as bunnyhopping/strafejumping. Walljumping is also still in the mod but not mentioned.
In any case I'm surprised that anyone would claim that the rewrite is unnecessary given how few options skulks have in the current version of live. The lerk/fade changes are perhaps more subjective but from what I remember because of the movement rewrite lerks needed to effectively be partially reworked to try and get something close to the live lerk (and eliminate shark lerking which was deemed to be an undesirable exploit).
I think we can all agree that proper ingame tutorials teaching people how to move around effectively as the different alien lifeforms would be a lovely thing to have, but that isn't a BT vs live issue; in fact, the basics of skulk/fade movement seem to be a lot simpler to explain now (pogo hopping is a huge deal and seems to have been largely ignored in discussions on the forum re: accessability of movement systems) which can only be a good thing.
Ah, the age old internet argument, "Someone doesn't agree with me; they must be a troll!"...
If you're going to insult me, the least you could do is be somewhat original. Better yet, you could actually add to the discussion.
Replace 'me' with 'anyone' and that sounds a lot more correct and sensible.