Well, that's cute and all, but yes indeed if Power Surge make it, going for Power Node won't exist at all anymore, except for all-in rushes where you destroy every structure anyway.
Lots of changes seem nice, some seem questionable though: flamethrower disabling structures ? So one Jetpackers flies around your main base and in three seconds disables your whole base ? Also, Power Surge sounds more like forgiving bad marines; you didn't beacon, you didn't defend your base, you didn't place sentry, mines, armories, factory on your Power Node ? Nah it's fine son, here's another way to survive despite that you suck.
Looking forward 80% of the changes listed in sewlek's mod though.
When are we going to have an actual "balance" patch?
As you can see with Sewlek's balance mod, there is quite a lot of large revisions in the works, so the next stage will likely be bringing over a large chunk of that mod, first, rather then continuing to tweak the current version of the game. But things are about ready to move into a final testing phase with that mod, so it shouldn't be too much longer.
--Cory
Are you really going to implement most of the major changes of the balance mod?
For example, judging by the changelog:
- Marines can build on Infestation
- Marine Comm can temporarily power individual structures
This alone effectively removes 2 new central features of NS2, infestation (now more or less a nuisance for Aliens without benefit) and power nodes (what's the point of strategically attacking a power node if the Marine Comm can just power the Obs or Gate anyway?)
Are you really going to change the game drastically so it's basically a new version of NS2 that is fundamentally different (the entire Alien upgrade process is different)?
Have you given up on current NS2?
Why the heavy modification, not even a year after release?
There is some fantastic discussion (and some not) about the changes and what works and what doesn't. The next step would be to jump on a BT server and give it a go. Sewlek himself often jumps in and makes changes on the fly to test based on feedback he receives while playing. Once you've got some experience under your belt, gather your thoughts and post them constructively in the thread! This is kind of our chance to really shape balance and Andi has been listening to a lot of feedback from comp and pub players alike.
Now, my quick thoughts on why this mod exists. NS2 is a FANTASTIC game but the switch from gorge centric to a commander led team has left Aliens pretty one dimensional in terms of strategy. Most of the changes in the mod are geared towards the alien tech tree and making it more robust and have real choices (see the biomass system). In the live build we have a pretty well rounded marine team but a lot of their tech goes unused or always comes in a specific order/time because there is no wild variation in what their opponent brings to the fight. With the biomass changes we can free up the marine restrictions a bit (see infestation bulding and power surge) because they now aren't as brutal to the alien team. I see a lot of what is going on as a means to bring the kham to the same level as the marine comm and then compensation in a few spots to the marine team as a whole.
Anyway, as I said, give it a go on a server and post some feedback about what you liked or didn't like and why. If you are on the server and have a question be sure to ask. People have been SUPER helpful explaining the changes to the new players who join.
tl;dr BALANCE TEST PSA
edit: Regarding why power surge exists see CrushaK's post. It really isn't OP at all and works rather well with the other changes.
Lots of changes seem nice, some seem questionable though: flamethrower disabling structures ? So one Jetpackers flies around your main base and in three seconds disables your whole base ?
Did you actually play the mod or are you just making wild assumptions too?
"Disabling" means that a Crag won't heal, a Shift won't energize, a Shade won't cloak and ink and a Whip won't attack for the duration they are under fire. If you kill the guy with the Flamethrower, everything is fine again. The Flamethrower just needed some utility buff like that. The small buffs to range, weight reduction and clip size are all nice and fine, but this is the change that really makes it viable as anti-structure weapon again.
You still can't rambo in a base since aliens will take you down easily, but you can slowly push with your team past the alien defense. You can also burn the Shade to disable the ink so that your ARCs can fire. Or burn the Whip so that your GLs can shoot without getting the nades knocked back.
Lots of changes seem nice, some seem questionable though: flamethrower disabling structures ? So one Jetpackers flies around your main base and in three seconds disables your whole base ?
Did you actually play the mod or are you just making wild assumptions too?
There's a reason I put "seem" in italic.
"Disabling" means that a Crag won't heal, a Shift won't energize, a Shade won't cloak and ink and a Whip won't attack for the duration they are under fire. If you kill the guy with the Flamethrower, everything is fine again. The Flamethrower just needed some utility buff like that. The small buffs to range, weight reduction and clip size are all nice and fine, but this is the change that really makes it viable as anti-structure weapon again.
You still can't rambo in a base since aliens will take you down easily, but you can slowly push with your team past the alien defense. You can also burn the Shade to disable the ink so that your ARCs can fire. Or burn the Whip so that your GLs can shoot without getting the nades knocked back.
Well, that's still too much utility for a one guy that is extremely hard to kill (at least for average players like me, and average players are UWE's money). FT needs a buff, I agree, but maybe not making it the best and mandatory weapon. The no-heal idea is nice, why not limit it to that ? As long as one unit is on fire, can't be healed, as long as a structure is a fire, can't be healed or heal things around. Just a random idea, you get the idea.
Lots of changes seem nice, some seem questionable though: flamethrower disabling structures ? So one Jetpackers flies around your main base and in three seconds disables your whole base ?
Did you actually play the mod or are you just making wild assumptions too?
There's a reason I put "seem" in italic.
"Disabling" means that a Crag won't heal, a Shift won't energize, a Shade won't cloak and ink and a Whip won't attack for the duration they are under fire. If you kill the guy with the Flamethrower, everything is fine again. The Flamethrower just needed some utility buff like that. The small buffs to range, weight reduction and clip size are all nice and fine, but this is the change that really makes it viable as anti-structure weapon again.
You still can't rambo in a base since aliens will take you down easily, but you can slowly push with your team past the alien defense. You can also burn the Shade to disable the ink so that your ARCs can fire. Or burn the Whip so that your GLs can shoot without getting the nades knocked back.
Well, that's still too much utility for a one guy that is extremely hard to kill (at least for average players like me, and average players are UWE's money). FT needs a buff, I agree, but maybe not making it the best and mandatory weapon. The no-heal idea is nice, why not limiting it to that ? As long as one unit is on fire, can't be healed, as long as a structure is a fire, can't be healed or heal things around. Just a random idea, you get the idea.[/quote]
I already got massive performance slowdowns before the latest patch when cysting in a very specific spot:
In East Wing on Docking, near the wall that is on the west side of the Power Node location at the stairs. The game would suddenly start a massive frame dropping whenever I just moved the cursor with the cyst near that wall or stair. Not even dropping it, just the proximity was enough already.
Happened on more than one occasion on that map and spot.
I already got massive performance slowdowns before the latest patch when cysting in a very specific spot:
In East Wing on Docking, near the wall that is on the west side of the Power Node location at the stairs. The game would suddenly start a massive frame dropping whenever I just moved the cursor with the cyst near that wall or stair. Not even dropping it, just the proximity was enough already.
Happened on more than one occasion on that map and spot.
Same problem at the end of the circle of the upperlevel bridge in Generator in docking . That's block me to cyst all generator and protect alien against Ninja PG at generator
I'm hearing random bile bomb sounds when I phase through phase gates.
It seems to be the same bug that's been around forever, the one where you would hear the shadowstep sound. Only now it's been replaced by the bile sound. It happens when you move around the map as commander too.
@Crushak, @Industry, thanks for your long answers. Yet this wasn't about the pros and cons of the balance mod.
I'm wondering *why* UWE works on the game's design for years, and then suddenly decides to totally redo the game, including changes that are conceptually the opposite of what was advertised and designed in the first place (e.g. effectively removing the power nodes critical function in 99% of situations).
I'm not saying the balance mod is better or worse. It's probably better overall given the problems of the Alien tech tree. But especially the Ninja PG stuff seems stupid (to me) AND single handedly removes the very concept of BOTH power nodes AND infestation from gameplay...
These aren't just balance changes, these are high level conceptual changes.
In short: what is going on? @-)
I'm wondering *why* UWE works on the game's design for years, and then suddenly decides to totally redo the game, including changes that are conceptually the opposite of what was advertised and designed in the first place (e.g. effectively removing the power nodes critical function in 99% of situations).
I'm not saying the balance mod is better or worse. It's probably better overall given the problems of the Alien tech tree. But especially the Ninja PG stuff seems stupid (to me) AND single handedly removes the very concept of BOTH power nodes AND infestation from gameplay...
These aren't just balance changes, these are high level conceptual changes.
In short: what is going on? @-)
I kind of have to agree with this and disagree with this at the same time.
If they do this, they may as well just remove infestation entirely because any sort of form of allowing marine buildings to be built on it makes infestation pretty much pointless and just makes it a hinderance for the Alien comm to have to deal with it for putting buildings down, unless they add some other bonus for aliens for having infestation down.
On the other end, I've always thought marines should have some way to temporarily power a building.
If they do this, they may as well just remove infestation entirely because any sort of form of allowing marine buildings to be built on it makes infestation pretty much pointless and just makes it a hinderance for the Alien comm to have to deal with it for putting buildings down, unless they add some other bonus for aliens for having infestation down.
What part of "structures still build slower on infestation (so there is a hindrance), there are countless other benefits of infestation for aliens and it takes much less sweat of the khammander to spread infestation through the entire room" was too hard to understand?
I play the Balance Test on a daily basis and I have yet to see this change leading to massive failures for the alien team.
If they do this, they may as well just remove infestation entirely because any sort of form of allowing marine buildings to be built on it makes infestation pretty much pointless and just makes it a hinderance for the Alien comm to have to deal with it for putting buildings down, unless they add some other bonus for aliens for having infestation down.
What part of "structures still build slower on infestation (so there is a hindrance), there are countless other benefits of infestation for aliens and it takes much less sweat of the khammander to spread infestation through the entire room" was too hard to understand?
I play the Balance Test on a daily basis and I have yet to see this change leading to massive failures for the alien team.
Might as well do away with infestation if they do bring this over from the balance mod.
Alien structures die faster when off infestation (which recedes faster) and marines can build on infestation (so 2 marines would build at same speed as 1...welders would completely negate this slower build speed unless I am mistaken).
Basically the infestation is all about handicapping aliens and offering no meaningful resistance to a prepared marine.
Meanwhile we are essentially re-visiting the power packs of old...but without the limitation that they had (being linked to a specific structure...and not able to be changed as the need required)...so again marines get their hand held if they didn't respond fast enough to beacon people or respond via phase gates.
Power packs got removed because they were unintuitive and needlessly delayed games (not to mention removed the supposed achiles heal in the powernode).
Finally the 1 CC for exo's and JP's....just totally stuffs up end game even further and leads to more turtles that are even harder to break.
Taking out the 2nd CC meant you knew the JP's would be limited and no new ones would appear...was this way for a while in the beta and simply extended games well and truly beyond their rightful length.
Might as well do away with infestation if they do bring this over from the balance mod.
What is it always with people wanting to remove content from a game just because it doesn't meet their expectations?
Alien structures die faster when off infestation (which recedes faster) and marines can build on infestation (so 2 marines would build at same speed as 1...welders would completely negate this slower build speed unless I am mistaken).
And two marines building at the speed of one is still better than two building at the speed of two. Marines who build something are open to a surprise attack from nearby aliens.
Welders never speed up the construction of any structure. They just increase the HP a bit more during the build process compared to using the Build Tool.
Basically the infestation is all about handicapping aliens and offering no meaningful resistance to a prepared marine.
Of course it is about "handicapping" aliens. It would be ridiculous if the khammander could instantly drop a structure anywhere on the map that builds itself or cast his Bonewall and Rupture anywhere at marines.
It is also not supposed to provide a meaningful resistance. A Power Node doesn't provide any meaningful resistance against aliens either. The game is about PvP, not PvE. That still doesn't change the fact that aliens have an advantage in infested areas and marines have a disadvantage. I don't see your problem since that advantage was never intended to be so strong that it completely favors a side.
Meanwhile we are essentially re-visiting the power packs of old...but without the limitation that they had (being linked to a specific structure...and not able to be changed as the need required)...so again marines get their hand held if they didn't respond fast enough to beacon people or respond via phase gates.
If marines don't respond to an attack in time, they pay the price of losing a structure. Of course if the aliens are so greedy and only go for the one structure in the base that doesn't cost anything, it's their own fault. They can still try to go for any of the other ones instead and since the commander can only power one structure at a time, marines are still at a disadvantage if they decide to go for their PG rather than their only Arms Lab.
Power packs got removed because they were unintuitive
So we change the feature so that it is more intuitive and thus don't remove it? Mission accomplished!
and needlessly delayed games (not to mention removed the supposed achiles heal in the powernode).
Players said time and again that they disliked the Power Node mechanic as Achilles heel of a base. Taking some of it's importance away is a good thing. It is still a very important structure, but now you might actually consider to target another structure in the base if you are not sure that you can take the entire base down on your own once the marines get reinforcements. Going for the Arms Lab, Obs or IP is actually a viable choice again, just like in NS1. Ninja PGs are a viable choice again, just like in NS1.
If you kill the Power Node in a final turtle, it's still pretty much over because the marines can only power one IP at a time and don't have any upgrades left then.
Finally the 1 CC for exo's and JP's....just totally stuffs up end game even further and leads to more turtles that are even harder to break.
Taking out the 2nd CC meant you knew the JP's would be limited and no new ones would appear...was this way for a while in the beta and simply extended games well and truly beyond their rightful length.
I don't know what you are going for. You need 2 CCs for Prototype Lab stuff in the Balance mod as well.
Players said time and again that they disliked the Power Node mechanic as Achilles heel of a base.
It's supposed to be an asymetric game. That patch, that change, goes the symetric way: equal chances to build anywhere, equal chances to survive this or that. Most these changes are great from a FPS point and very poor from a RTS point. If I love NS2 so much, it is because of that FPS/RTS nature, not because of its awesome FPS; let's be honest about that, there are much better FPS's around, in terms of feeling/shooting. Dumbing it down won't help the game. If marines were so terrible enough that Power Node went down, they damn deserve to lose that base.
Players said time and again that they disliked the Power Node mechanic as Achilles heel of a base.
It's supposed to be an asymetric game. That patch, that change, goes the symetric way: equal chances to build anywhere, equal chances to survive this or that. Most these changes are great from a FPS point and very poor from a RTS point. If I love NS2 so much, it is because of that FPS/RTS nature, not because of its awesome FPS; let's be honest about that, there are much better FPS's around, in terms of feeling/shooting. Dumbing it down won't help the game. If marines were so terrible enough that Power Node went down, they damn deserve to lose that base.
You can't just build anywhere though. Aliens STILL can only build on infestation and marine buildings still require power. Power surge is a temporary and expensive mechanic on a fairly long cooldown. It isn't permanently ignoring power in anyway shape or form and requires a significant investment.
Regarding being able to build on infestation, this just removes a needless restriction that was easily circumvented by having a marine spot where there wasn't any (and there is ALWAYS a spot). All it takes is a small gap or patch and the comm could drop whatever. Allowing marines to build anywhere does not make the game any more symmetric. In all honesty the binary aspect of infestation created this symmetry that you seem to be averse to. Marines could only build in their territory, and aliens only in theirs, where territory was delimited by where infestation was. To me, the asymmetric argument falls short on this one.
We should really take this discussion over to the proper thread and keep this one on track with posts about 246
Comments
Lots of changes seem nice, some seem questionable though: flamethrower disabling structures ? So one Jetpackers flies around your main base and in three seconds disables your whole base ? Also, Power Surge sounds more like forgiving bad marines; you didn't beacon, you didn't defend your base, you didn't place sentry, mines, armories, factory on your Power Node ? Nah it's fine son, here's another way to survive despite that you suck.
Looking forward 80% of the changes listed in sewlek's mod though.
Best thing to do would be to head over the the mod thread here: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128755/sewleks-balance-mod#latest
There is some fantastic discussion (and some not) about the changes and what works and what doesn't. The next step would be to jump on a BT server and give it a go. Sewlek himself often jumps in and makes changes on the fly to test based on feedback he receives while playing. Once you've got some experience under your belt, gather your thoughts and post them constructively in the thread! This is kind of our chance to really shape balance and Andi has been listening to a lot of feedback from comp and pub players alike.
Now, my quick thoughts on why this mod exists. NS2 is a FANTASTIC game but the switch from gorge centric to a commander led team has left Aliens pretty one dimensional in terms of strategy. Most of the changes in the mod are geared towards the alien tech tree and making it more robust and have real choices (see the biomass system). In the live build we have a pretty well rounded marine team but a lot of their tech goes unused or always comes in a specific order/time because there is no wild variation in what their opponent brings to the fight. With the biomass changes we can free up the marine restrictions a bit (see infestation bulding and power surge) because they now aren't as brutal to the alien team. I see a lot of what is going on as a means to bring the kham to the same level as the marine comm and then compensation in a few spots to the marine team as a whole.
Anyway, as I said, give it a go on a server and post some feedback about what you liked or didn't like and why. If you are on the server and have a question be sure to ask. People have been SUPER helpful explaining the changes to the new players who join.
tl;dr BALANCE TEST PSA
edit: Regarding why power surge exists see CrushaK's post. It really isn't OP at all and works rather well with the other changes.
Did you actually play the mod or are you just making wild assumptions too?
"Disabling" means that a Crag won't heal, a Shift won't energize, a Shade won't cloak and ink and a Whip won't attack for the duration they are under fire. If you kill the guy with the Flamethrower, everything is fine again. The Flamethrower just needed some utility buff like that. The small buffs to range, weight reduction and clip size are all nice and fine, but this is the change that really makes it viable as anti-structure weapon again.
You still can't rambo in a base since aliens will take you down easily, but you can slowly push with your team past the alien defense. You can also burn the Shade to disable the ink so that your ARCs can fire. Or burn the Whip so that your GLs can shoot without getting the nades knocked back.
There's a reason I put "seem" in italic.
Well, that's still too much utility for a one guy that is extremely hard to kill (at least for average players like me, and average players are UWE's money). FT needs a buff, I agree, but maybe not making it the best and mandatory weapon. The no-heal idea is nice, why not limit it to that ? As long as one unit is on fire, can't be healed, as long as a structure is a fire, can't be healed or heal things around. Just a random idea, you get the idea.
There's a reason I put "seem" in italic.
Well, that's still too much utility for a one guy that is extremely hard to kill (at least for average players like me, and average players are UWE's money). FT needs a buff, I agree, but maybe not making it the best and mandatory weapon. The no-heal idea is nice, why not limiting it to that ? As long as one unit is on fire, can't be healed, as long as a structure is a fire, can't be healed or heal things around. Just a random idea, you get the idea.[/quote]
OH god, thats back?!
I already got massive performance slowdowns before the latest patch when cysting in a very specific spot:
In East Wing on Docking, near the wall that is on the west side of the Power Node location at the stairs. The game would suddenly start a massive frame dropping whenever I just moved the cursor with the cyst near that wall or stair. Not even dropping it, just the proximity was enough already.
Happened on more than one occasion on that map and spot.
Same problem at the end of the circle of the upperlevel bridge in Generator in docking . That's block me to cyst all generator and protect alien against Ninja PG at generator
Was reported on Thursday.
@crushak : Damn.. Ok back to the drawing board with that one then, thanks.
It seems to be the same bug that's been around forever, the one where you would hear the shadowstep sound. Only now it's been replaced by the bile sound. It happens when you move around the map as commander too.
I'm wondering *why* UWE works on the game's design for years, and then suddenly decides to totally redo the game, including changes that are conceptually the opposite of what was advertised and designed in the first place (e.g. effectively removing the power nodes critical function in 99% of situations).
I'm not saying the balance mod is better or worse. It's probably better overall given the problems of the Alien tech tree. But especially the Ninja PG stuff seems stupid (to me) AND single handedly removes the very concept of BOTH power nodes AND infestation from gameplay...
These aren't just balance changes, these are high level conceptual changes.
In short: what is going on? @-)
I kind of have to agree with this and disagree with this at the same time.
If they do this, they may as well just remove infestation entirely because any sort of form of allowing marine buildings to be built on it makes infestation pretty much pointless and just makes it a hinderance for the Alien comm to have to deal with it for putting buildings down, unless they add some other bonus for aliens for having infestation down.
On the other end, I've always thought marines should have some way to temporarily power a building.
What part of "structures still build slower on infestation (so there is a hindrance), there are countless other benefits of infestation for aliens and it takes much less sweat of the khammander to spread infestation through the entire room" was too hard to understand?
I play the Balance Test on a daily basis and I have yet to see this change leading to massive failures for the alien team.
Alien structures die faster when off infestation (which recedes faster) and marines can build on infestation (so 2 marines would build at same speed as 1...welders would completely negate this slower build speed unless I am mistaken).
Basically the infestation is all about handicapping aliens and offering no meaningful resistance to a prepared marine.
Meanwhile we are essentially re-visiting the power packs of old...but without the limitation that they had (being linked to a specific structure...and not able to be changed as the need required)...so again marines get their hand held if they didn't respond fast enough to beacon people or respond via phase gates.
Power packs got removed because they were unintuitive and needlessly delayed games (not to mention removed the supposed achiles heal in the powernode).
Finally the 1 CC for exo's and JP's....just totally stuffs up end game even further and leads to more turtles that are even harder to break.
Taking out the 2nd CC meant you knew the JP's would be limited and no new ones would appear...was this way for a while in the beta and simply extended games well and truly beyond their rightful length.
What is it always with people wanting to remove content from a game just because it doesn't meet their expectations?
And two marines building at the speed of one is still better than two building at the speed of two. Marines who build something are open to a surprise attack from nearby aliens.
Welders never speed up the construction of any structure. They just increase the HP a bit more during the build process compared to using the Build Tool.
Of course it is about "handicapping" aliens. It would be ridiculous if the khammander could instantly drop a structure anywhere on the map that builds itself or cast his Bonewall and Rupture anywhere at marines.
It is also not supposed to provide a meaningful resistance. A Power Node doesn't provide any meaningful resistance against aliens either. The game is about PvP, not PvE. That still doesn't change the fact that aliens have an advantage in infested areas and marines have a disadvantage. I don't see your problem since that advantage was never intended to be so strong that it completely favors a side.
If marines don't respond to an attack in time, they pay the price of losing a structure. Of course if the aliens are so greedy and only go for the one structure in the base that doesn't cost anything, it's their own fault. They can still try to go for any of the other ones instead and since the commander can only power one structure at a time, marines are still at a disadvantage if they decide to go for their PG rather than their only Arms Lab.
So we change the feature so that it is more intuitive and thus don't remove it? Mission accomplished!
Players said time and again that they disliked the Power Node mechanic as Achilles heel of a base. Taking some of it's importance away is a good thing. It is still a very important structure, but now you might actually consider to target another structure in the base if you are not sure that you can take the entire base down on your own once the marines get reinforcements. Going for the Arms Lab, Obs or IP is actually a viable choice again, just like in NS1. Ninja PGs are a viable choice again, just like in NS1.
If you kill the Power Node in a final turtle, it's still pretty much over because the marines can only power one IP at a time and don't have any upgrades left then.
I don't know what you are going for. You need 2 CCs for Prototype Lab stuff in the Balance mod as well.
It's supposed to be an asymetric game. That patch, that change, goes the symetric way: equal chances to build anywhere, equal chances to survive this or that. Most these changes are great from a FPS point and very poor from a RTS point. If I love NS2 so much, it is because of that FPS/RTS nature, not because of its awesome FPS; let's be honest about that, there are much better FPS's around, in terms of feeling/shooting. Dumbing it down won't help the game. If marines were so terrible enough that Power Node went down, they damn deserve to lose that base.
You can't just build anywhere though. Aliens STILL can only build on infestation and marine buildings still require power. Power surge is a temporary and expensive mechanic on a fairly long cooldown. It isn't permanently ignoring power in anyway shape or form and requires a significant investment.
Regarding being able to build on infestation, this just removes a needless restriction that was easily circumvented by having a marine spot where there wasn't any (and there is ALWAYS a spot). All it takes is a small gap or patch and the comm could drop whatever. Allowing marines to build anywhere does not make the game any more symmetric. In all honesty the binary aspect of infestation created this symmetry that you seem to be averse to. Marines could only build in their territory, and aliens only in theirs, where territory was delimited by where infestation was. To me, the asymmetric argument falls short on this one.
We should really take this discussion over to the proper thread and keep this one on track with posts about 246
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128755/sewleks-balance-mod/