Robotix, I think you and Ghostree3's are using different definitions of strategic.
In a lower player server, a single player sneaking behind enemy lines setting up a phasegate can enable large shifts in game play. In larger servers you tend to get a more meat-grinder approach to stragegies "Keep hitting that to distract them, if they back off to try and hit somewhere else we'll punch through" while you do get these in smaller servers, they are more surgical.
Send 2 players to Hive A to get upgrades, Send 4 players to hive B to setup a phasegate once aliens go to defend hive A.
Both are strategic, some are just more hammer vs scapel
Actually, our definitions are the same; we are just applying them differently. I am talking about strategy on a global scale whereas Ghostthree3 is talking about strategy on an individual scale.
UWE has certainly designed the game to work in the 12-16 player range. 24 player servers are a compromise and don't work as well. This isn't opinion, it's a result of UWE's vision.
Actually, that isn't fully accurate.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. You can see this by the fact of the hundreds of official servers that were up on the weekend, not ONE was 6v6. Every single one was 8v8. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side. (If the game became unbalanced with a 2 player offset, then they would have a hard time balancing the game at all.)
I know it may seem like a minor point, but it needs to be said.
I like the type of games I like. Does anyone else feel the same way?
was actually seeing if it was a trend, progressing from higher player counts to more midrange ones as one starts to feel more comfortable with the game. but yes, here's my opinion, what are yours... like almost every other thread ever.
UWE has certainly designed the game to work in the 12-16 player range. 24 player servers are a compromise and don't work as well. This isn't opinion, it's a result of UWE's vision.
Actually, that isn't fully accurate.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. You can see this by the fact of the hundreds of official servers that were up on the weekend, not ONE was 6v6. Every single one was 8v8. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side. (If the game became unbalanced with a 2 player offset, then they would have a hard time balancing the game at all.)
I know it may seem like a minor point, but it needs to be said.
Noted. However my actual point was that it is definitely not designed to be balanced at 12v12. I have never seen a 6v6 server and figured that was the competition standard. So is 8v8 the actual competition standard and most competitions are smaller than that?
6vs6 is the comp standard, 8vs8 is the pub standard (since all the official pubs are 8vs8). So it's safe to say the game is designed to field around 12-16 players, or at least proven to work with these playercounts, no? Not saying you can't go higher, or lower for that matter, but the more you deviate from that standard the more you'll start running into some problems it seems. Egglocking problem is one obvious problem, but crowding up the maps like that also changes the way the game is played imo.
The only appealing aspect of 24p servers to me is that it's like combat, just some good old mindless fraggin, and little more. And given the choice, I prefer combat to 24p servers to be honest.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. You can see this by the fact of the hundreds of official servers that were up on the weekend, not ONE was 6v6. Every single one was 8v8. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side. (If the game became unbalanced with a 2 player offset, then they would have a hard time balancing the game at all.)
I know it may seem like a minor point, but it needs to be said.
AFAIK, UWE never stated a specific playercount they were targeting to balance so much as they wanted it to be balanced over all playercounts. Of course, that's not truly possible as I don't see a way to make NS2 work both as a 1v1 and 12v12. Instead, I think a practical range is more like 12-24, which current balance and performance factors restricting it mostly to 12-20.
Also, the 16 player servers UWE put up we're more because of performance than balance issues. The top grade server hardware (Intel Xeons) could only handle that many players at launch.
However my actual point was that it is definitely not designed to be balanced at 12v12. I have never seen a 6v6 server and figured that was the competition standard. So is 8v8 the actual competition standard and most competitions are smaller than that?
No, 8v8 is the pub standard, 6v6 is the comp standard. The game is balanced for 8v8, but the variables aren't so tight that +/- 2 players a side would throw off balance.
So it's safe to say the game is designed to field around 12-16 players. Not saying you can't go higher, or lower for that matter, but the more you deviate from the standard the more you'll start running into some problems.
Again, I don't want to make a big deal about a small point, but the game is not *designed* to field 12 players total. Is the game playable and relatively balanced at that level? Of course. However, the prime balance point is 8v8. Period. It's designed for 8v8. However, as I noted above, a variance of +/- 2 players a side is within acceptable tolerance. So saying the game is designed with a high end of 16 players just isn't accurate. The devs have talked about a "top end" of 10 players a side, and so it would be 20 players that would be the 'high end' of acceptable gameplay balance. (and having played on many a 10v10 as well as 8v8 and 6v6, I can say that balance is pretty reasonable across all of them. Past 20 players things start to go south though)
Now *NS1* was designed/balanced for 6v6 from the outset, and that caused no end of trouble since hardly anyone played 6v6 on pubs. Of course that's a whole other story.
So it's safe to say the game is designed to field around 12-16 players
It's not safe to say that. "Is designed to" suggests that UWE deliberately intended the game to be that way, which they did not. UWE intends the game to be balanced for a variety of playercounts.
or at least proven to work with these playercounts, no?
That, at least, is an opinion which you could argue and support.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
UWE has certainly designed the game to work in the 12-16 player range. 24 player servers are a compromise and don't work as well. This isn't opinion, it's a result of UWE's vision.
Actually, that isn't fully accurate.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. You can see this by the fact of the hundreds of official servers that were up on the weekend, not ONE was 6v6. Every single one was 8v8. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side. (If the game became unbalanced with a 2 player offset, then they would have a hard time balancing the game at all.)
I know it may seem like a minor point, but it needs to be said.
Ah ... hate to say it, but another reason the servers from UWE is 8v8 is actually that on release, standard servers just barely had the performance to stay stable lategame in an 8v8 game.
One of the major reasons for introducing an alien commander and the whole tres/pres system was to allow the game to stay balanced over a larger range of playercounts (compared to NS1). So there is no intentional ignoring of the large-server balance problem, mostly because ... well, until 241+, those problems were hidden due to performance limits and bugs ... it was only when those went away (well, mostly) that the large server balance went up in smoke.
Personally, I have faith that UWE will get it fixed.
One of the major reasons for introducing an alien commander and the whole tres/pres system was to allow the game to stay balanced over a larger range of playercounts (compared to NS1). So there is no intentional ignoring of the large-server balance problem, mostly because ... well, until 241+, those problems were hidden due to performance limits and bugs ... it was only when those went away (well, mostly) that the large server balance went up in smoke.
Idk. IN MY OPINION, pre 240 Aliens were doing alright on higher player count servers because the skulk's acceleration/friction was not nerfed into the ground. Sure performance increased as well but it was not the only factor because as you said the hit reg bugs were also addressed a bit from what I heard in the Wasabi podcast. All these changes were sprung at once without holding back the skulk nerfs to see what increased performance and hitreg would bring. So we will never know if the skulk nerf was required or if some alternative could have been used such as modifying alien economy. Right now skulks get slaughtered in high player servers because they cannot outmaneuver so many marines especially if you have a few high level ones in there it is just plain unenjoyable in my personal opinion.
Sure, I'm certain UWE wants NS2 to play well on a wide scale of playercounts. Why not? But the fact remains that all the official pub servers are 16p. So I'm assuming that UWE thinks 8vs8 is the most ideal size at the moment, at least for pub play.
So it's safe to say the game is designed to field around 12-16 players
It's not safe to say that. "Is designed to" suggests that UWE deliberately intended the game to be that way, which they did not. UWE intends the game to be balanced for a variety of playercounts.
or at least proven to work with these playercounts, no?
That, at least, is an opinion which you could argue and support.
Some one has never read the mapping guidelines that came with your spark editor
"Overview
Both the marine and alien teams have up to 16 players each and spawn in
their own base at the beginning of the game. The marine base has a
Command Station and room for all 16 players and a collection of other
marine structures. The alien start has a Hive hanging from the ceiling and
room for 16 players (including the huge and fearsome Onos) and room for
some alien structures."
Some one has never read the mapping guidelines that came with your spark editor
Thanks for pointing that out! Quite right, I've never read that. The same thing can also be found here, here, and here.
It's nice to see that, contrary to nearly everyone's repeated assertions, UWE does in fact intend NS2 to be played with playercounts up to and including 16v16.
another reason the servers from UWE is 8v8 is actually that on release, standard servers just barely had the performance to stay stable lategame in an 8v8 game.
Hey, I have it under good authority that the late game slideshow was meant to be a feature.
For public games I think the larger servers are better, it affords the individual more freedom as there's less you personally are required to do. There's also generally more fighting and less wandering around killing buildings without seeing an enemy.
Unfortunately it messes up the balance rather, which has always been a weak point of the game, but still, I prefer the larger servers to smaller ones.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
Any more than 18 players and the game starts to break down pretty badly. Aliens can get themselves egg locked purely through natural play because the spawn rate for eggs is not dynamic and active egg spawning is (currently) specific to only the shift. It basically forces the alien team to go shift first on 20+ player servers.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
But you are UWE :O But yea UWE are responsive to these types of things. I just hope they bring out the buff wand instead of the nerfing Mallet.
Actually, I'm not currently employed by UWE. I'm a playtester, and probably holds the record for most patches submitted (and integrated) to UWE, and I was hired for 4 months before release to work full-time on Spark engine performance. So I know quite a lot about how things works, but I'm not UWE (though I'm bound by the usual playtester/dev NDA).
One of these days we'll stop having to debunk this "UWE intended gameplay for smaller servers" myth that people love to keep concocting on the forums.
If you like smaller servers, then play on them. You don't really need a forum thread so people can help you justify your own preferences do you? All these do is turn into massive fests of half truths or opinions. The facts have always been: some people prefer smaller, some people prefer bigger. That's why there are BOTH!
That may be so but the game is clearly not balanced for larger (22p+ servers). Nobody is saying you shouldn't play larger servers, though you at least shouldn't judge balance based on your experiences on these servers. As it stands these different server sizes also make balance discussions confusing at times, as one player may be arguing from an 16p server perspective while another may be doing so from a 24p one.
Comments
Actually, our definitions are the same; we are just applying them differently. I am talking about strategy on a global scale whereas Ghostthree3 is talking about strategy on an individual scale.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. You can see this by the fact of the hundreds of official servers that were up on the weekend, not ONE was 6v6. Every single one was 8v8. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side. (If the game became unbalanced with a 2 player offset, then they would have a hard time balancing the game at all.)
I know it may seem like a minor point, but it needs to be said.
Noted. However my actual point was that it is definitely not designed to be balanced at 12v12. I have never seen a 6v6 server and figured that was the competition standard. So is 8v8 the actual competition standard and most competitions are smaller than that?
The only appealing aspect of 24p servers to me is that it's like combat, just some good old mindless fraggin, and little more. And given the choice, I prefer combat to 24p servers to be honest.
Also, the 16 player servers UWE put up we're more because of performance than balance issues. The top grade server hardware (Intel Xeons) could only handle that many players at launch.
Again, I don't want to make a big deal about a small point, but the game is not *designed* to field 12 players total. Is the game playable and relatively balanced at that level? Of course. However, the prime balance point is 8v8. Period. It's designed for 8v8. However, as I noted above, a variance of +/- 2 players a side is within acceptable tolerance. So saying the game is designed with a high end of 16 players just isn't accurate. The devs have talked about a "top end" of 10 players a side, and so it would be 20 players that would be the 'high end' of acceptable gameplay balance. (and having played on many a 10v10 as well as 8v8 and 6v6, I can say that balance is pretty reasonable across all of them. Past 20 players things start to go south though)
Now *NS1* was designed/balanced for 6v6 from the outset, and that caused no end of trouble since hardly anyone played 6v6 on pubs. Of course that's a whole other story.
That, at least, is an opinion which you could argue and support.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2096136/#Comment_2096136
Either way people have different preferences so to each their own.
Ah ... hate to say it, but another reason the servers from UWE is 8v8 is actually that on release, standard servers just barely had the performance to stay stable lategame in an 8v8 game.
One of the major reasons for introducing an alien commander and the whole tres/pres system was to allow the game to stay balanced over a larger range of playercounts (compared to NS1). So there is no intentional ignoring of the large-server balance problem, mostly because ... well, until 241+, those problems were hidden due to performance limits and bugs ... it was only when those went away (well, mostly) that the large server balance went up in smoke.
Personally, I have faith that UWE will get it fixed.
Idk. IN MY OPINION, pre 240 Aliens were doing alright on higher player count servers because the skulk's acceleration/friction was not nerfed into the ground. Sure performance increased as well but it was not the only factor because as you said the hit reg bugs were also addressed a bit from what I heard in the Wasabi podcast. All these changes were sprung at once without holding back the skulk nerfs to see what increased performance and hitreg would bring. So we will never know if the skulk nerf was required or if some alternative could have been used such as modifying alien economy. Right now skulks get slaughtered in high player servers because they cannot outmaneuver so many marines especially if you have a few high level ones in there it is just plain unenjoyable in my personal opinion.
But you are UWE :O But yea UWE are responsive to these types of things. I just hope they bring out the buff wand instead of the nerfing Mallet.
Sure, I'm certain UWE wants NS2 to play well on a wide scale of playercounts. Why not? But the fact remains that all the official pub servers are 16p. So I'm assuming that UWE thinks 8vs8 is the most ideal size at the moment, at least for pub play.
Some one has never read the mapping guidelines that came with your spark editor
"Overview
Both the marine and alien teams have up to 16 players each and spawn in
their own base at the beginning of the game. The marine base has a
Command Station and room for all 16 players and a collection of other
marine structures. The alien start has a Hive hanging from the ceiling and
room for 16 players (including the huge and fearsome Onos) and room for
some alien structures."
Hmmm I wonder what they are "suggesting" here.
It's nice to see that, contrary to nearly everyone's repeated assertions, UWE does in fact intend NS2 to be played with playercounts up to and including 16v16.
Unfortunately it messes up the balance rather, which has always been a weak point of the game, but still, I prefer the larger servers to smaller ones.
If you like smaller servers, then play on them. You don't really need a forum thread so people can help you justify your own preferences do you? All these do is turn into massive fests of half truths or opinions. The facts have always been: some people prefer smaller, some people prefer bigger. That's why there are BOTH!