I think something that gets lost in a lot of these threads, comparing one direct variable to another (ie: skulk vs marine. shotgun vs fade. etc.), is that its not taking the entire combat situation into consideration from a holistic point of view.
For example..
Yes and shotgun-marine will probably take out a skulk without too much problem.
But thats not taking into consideration things like...
bile bomb: obscured vision, armor loss, potential new targetting priority on gorge
spores: obscured vision, health loss, potential new aerial targetting priority on lerk
fades: puncture damage (may be using the obscured vision that bile bomb and spores provides as cover)
etc. etc.
My point is that while comparing apples to apples is fine, it doesn't ranslate well when comparing the entire basket of apples and oranges.... if that makes sense. I feel like I sound pretenious or something lol.
Personally I like to view the marines as this unstoppable force of ranged DPS and armor.
A ball of marines with slightly varying means to output high amounts of DPS in a relatively short amount of time.
While the aliens are so completely different in the way they play that you really have to use every weapon in your arsenal to shape the battlefield to your advantage.
Use Infestation Spikes to block bullets or trap marines, lay down spores (to blind, cause direct dmg to hp AND take away from a marine's dps output by forcing them to find a spot without gas to hide), spread umbra, bile bomb, ENZYME CLOUD. etc.
I know that marines are typicall seen as the race that requires more teamwork, but in a combat situation I feel that the alien team requires much more communcation and synchronized movements and ideal timings and battlefield modifiers. ESPECIALLY battle modifier, aliens are ALL ABOUT stacking battle modifiers.
What do I mean by battle modifiers? see above: spores, umbra, bile, enzyme cloud, stomp, infestation spike, nutrient mist, poison bite.
Well, the issue with direct comparisons is the same issue with comparing units in Starcraft 2. It's not unit costs X resource. Time to research, different resource value (i've heard the fact alien pres costs more than marine pres), research time, ease of use, etc. Mixing in this with the fact a player's skill effects and you have a VERY DIFFICULT way to directly compare things in NS2. This isn't even counting the fact people's machines are different so they might not be playing it to the same degree (and might actually be handycapping themselves with inferior computers, meaning skill is even MORE variable). The fact of the matter is balance in NS2 is a goal and job for UWE I don't envy and doubt will ever be achieved.
As for the shotgun: It's value goes from 0 to infinity depending on how well a marine can evade and aim. It's VERY similar to the fade in that regard and despite what people say, the even shotgun spread was better to avoid the sniper effect it sometimes produced. Is a shotgun marine strong? Yes, but in the hands of the Fane Tane Pain train, EVERYTHING is strong.
My best advice if you're having problems with it is to wait for the skulk acceleration hotfix and then play it as if it'll be like that situation forever. Meaning you'll have to adapt from then on because we can't predict if UWE will ever change anything in the future.
Can a fade theoretically one shot as many people he has bullets? No. Can he OHK un-upgraded marines? No. But a shotty marine with a jetpack can. For 20 res less.
Good players can use fades well. But they can use the shotty-jet combo far better.
That's not really true. One skill (aiming and positioning against melee enemies) is different from the other (hit and run against ranged enemies with a melee weapon)
You're correlating JP skill to Fade skill which really doesn't have a correlation. Just because you can JP/SG doesn't mean you're going to be the equivalent with a Fade.
Also, if JP/SG is so damn easy why doesn't the marine commander rush shotguns for all games. Quite evidently if it can just kill everything in one shot, ALL marines should get it and never die. Ever. and get 50:4 kill ratios. This isn't the gorge, an entire team can go SG/JP effectively. If this weapon is is so Overpowered then the moment it shows up aliens will have no chance of winning. The alien team should cower in fear like "marines when they hear Fades are out" the moment shotguns appear.
Why weren't Fades and Onos dying left and right pre-patch? Why weren't marines winning left right and center with this weapon pre-patch? Why was it still competitive 65:35 aliens/marines win ratio pre-patch?
Reapers were overpowered in old SC2: WoL. Zergs literally had no way to defeat a reaper build and were always crippled by reaper attacks. With little to no skill, Terran players could kill a zerg with reapers and there was literally nothing they could do. Those were overpowered.
This weapon just has a wide skill range with a high skill ceiling.
Sorry but a SG'er can kill as many skulks as bulletts...same way a skulk can kill a marine with 3 bites.
These are hard facts...the frequency is another matter but the possibility is there.
You can 1 shot a lerk with a SG and skulks die just as easily....sure some aiming is required but it is also required for aliens (especially with the erratic parasite).
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
No, I didn't play during the beta process. My experience was mostly during 237-239.
So what you're telling me is if Exos were removed from the game we'd see more marines win? What... I mean, I don't disagree (the Exos are only good for defending or when you've "skill-wise" already won. I mean, they're fun but JPs are just more effective. Perhaps Rails will turn that around.)
The issue I have is... if these JP/SGer are so good, why was the competitive scene so bad? Were the marines that played competitively just horrible players? I mean, you're making it out as if SGs are overpowered, and yet marines lost 70% of competitive games. If this weapon is so good, then good players shouldn't be losing 70% of games. Pubs were about 55:45 for aliens. If this weapon is so good, then aliens must have had an even MORE overpowered weapon/ability to compensate for this to not only overcome the SG/JP's power but BEAT it and swing the win rates over.
If NS2Stats had marines winning then I'd agree and say we take a look, but the stats aren't adding up pre-patch.
OK then I can understand your difficulty with this....being subjected to more recent gameplay only it does seem odd.
But yes if we didn't have exo's we would see more JP + SG rushes...and more hives going down. You can always beacon back those marines pushing that hive if the aliens push back....cant do that with exo's.
You can take down hives faster than aliens (when transit time included) can CC's so base trading worked for marines more than aliens (due to economy of lost upgrades).
Comp play.,..is very limited and only 6 v 6, where aliens are stronger due to marines scaling up better with numbers.
Take a look at NS2 stats prior to when we went retail (which was october 31st) and you will see a much heavier marine dominance...then go back about 6 months and check again...even more marine dominance.
Exo's lost marines more games than it won them....in fact it was joked about being a noob comm who went exo over JP's....now it seems everyone is a noob comm who does that.
Sadly aliens never had any overpowered weapons (Onos excluded)...though we did have feign death (which saved fades most of the time...but was crap on other lifeforms (and bug plagued)).
Aliens got most of their lifeforms early on...back when marines only had weapons upgrades and SG's...marines started getting all their toys...and best aliens got was 2nd or 3rd hive abilities (none of which are game changing (though shifts and the old stomp was a good griefer)).
Trust me you see some good JP'ers and SG'ers you wont ever want to go with exo's again.
Even now I rarely take an exo...I will spend money on SG's, FT'ers even mines...but rarely exo's.
good for aliens. killing more shotguns mean you have to deal with less pres spent on mines.
Er, I wrote that, but the point was that it is incredibly hard to deal with in pubs, to the point where in the past few days I haven't seen aliens come back once from a marine team that decides to spam them. I don't know where the balance stats are coming from, but at least on my server, with our players evenly spreading between Marines and Aliens, Marines are completely decimating with SG+JP.
For some reason people tend to complain about everything that makes them lose....
I mean for real? So let's say shotgun's get nerfed. Aliens will win more and then it's ALIENS ARE OP all over the place again.
Then what, we nerf the hell out of fades? We remove ONOS?
Shotgun is not op. That a skulk dies when a shotgun hit's him straight in the face is far from OP. A 35-2 jp/shotgun guy just knows how to aim and when to fire. He waits until your in his dead center aim and fire those 17 pellets straight in your face. Nothing OP about that.
Did you know it actually takes 3 shotgun hits to kill a cara-fade and that's when ALL the pellets hit? There is absolutely nothing OP about that. If you get hit 3 times and die you are over-extending way to much and you deserve to die anyway.
And even so I mean if marines get jp's and shotguns (aka at least mid to late-game) by the time a normal team gets jp and shotgun you should have enough res for at least a fade. If you don't then your team has probably already lost anyway.
And saying that because marines have a 30 pRes "something" does not mean alien need a 30 pRes equivalent. This game is asymmetrical for a reason.
For some reason people tend to complain about everything that makes them lose....
I mean for real? So let's say shotgun's get nerfed. Aliens will win more and then it's ALIENS ARE OP all over the place again.
Then what, we nerf the hell out of fades? We remove ONOS?
Shotgun is not op. That a skulk dies when a shotgun hit's him straight in the face is far from OP. A 35-2 jp/shotgun guy just knows how to aim and when to fire. He waits until your in his dead center aim and fire those 17 pellets straight in your face. Nothing OP about that.
Did you know it actually takes 3 shotgun hits to kill a cara-fade and that's when ALL the pellets hit? There is absolutely nothing OP about that. If you get hit 3 times and die you are over-extending way to much and you deserve to die anyway.
And even so I mean if marines get jp's and shotguns (aka at least mid to late-game) by the time a normal team gets jp and shotgun you should have enough res for at least a fade. If you don't then your team has probably already lost anyway.
And saying that because marines have a 30 pRes "something" does not mean alien need a 30 pRes equivalent. This game is asymmetrical for a reason.
It used to take three...now its 2...happened in conjunction with the spread change.
Also SG and JP is 30 RES....fade is 50....you will need to be tripling the marine res intake to be able to get it as soon as that.
I am not saying SG's are OP'd because 1 person went 32-1..but because 4 or 5 will decimate any aliens that they come across....hive rooms with a decent ceiling and that hive is going down 9/10 times.
I just tested Fade versus Shotgun Marine with a friend.
You have to hit 4-6 times as a Fade against an a3 Marine depending on your accuracy.
You have to shoot a Carapace Fade twice with full hits to kill as w3, and as w2 2 full hits leaves them at 2 hp.
Sounds fair... not.
And now, what are the odds for a Carapace Fade against a nano-shielded medpacked Shotgun-Jetpacker?
While ONE or maybe TWO Shotgun-Jetpackers can be manageable by the aliens, a group of THREE or more covering each other just make a mess.
Add in a comm that supports with Nano Shield, Meds, Ammo and Scans and maybe a nice open hive location and you are screwed.
Also SG and JP is 30 RES....fade is 50....you will need to be tripling the marine res intake to be able to get it as soon as that.
As if marines have jetpack and shotgun tech when they reach pres of 30. do you even play this game? I don't think it's even possible time/recourse income based. And even if it what that would mean you would have a hell of a tres income which would mean the marines should be on the winning side anyway.
I am not saying SG's are OP'd because 1 person went 32-1..but because 4 or 5 will decimate any aliens that they come across....hive rooms with a decent ceiling and that hive is going down 9/10 times.
So in your opinion 4 times 30 pRes including 20 tRes advanced armor, 40 tRes protolab + 25 tres jetpack research = 85 tres should not be able to wreak havoc inside a hive? For one if a team of 4 manages to kill a hive without backup they are good (or the aliens are bad). Second, they should be able to wreak havoc because it took quiet some effort and time to get that tech available....
We are talking about a total sum of 120 pRes. That is the equivalent of the one of the following groups:
-4 lerks
-2 fades and 2 gorges
-1 onos, 1 lerk and 1 roge.
And with 85 tres of update they will have like carapace, celerity, blink and or whatever combo. If you believe that either of those groups cannot achieve total chaos inside a marine base I am not sure which game you have been playing..... Probably a different one that I have.
It used to take three...now its 2...happened in conjunction with the spread change.
Also SG and JP is 30 RES....fade is 50....you will need to be tripling the marine res intake to be able to get it as soon as that.
I am not saying SG's are OP'd because 1 person went 32-1..but because 4 or 5 will decimate any aliens that they come across....hive rooms with a decent ceiling and that hive is going down 9/10 times.
you ignore the marines attacking the hive and attack their main power. stale mate.
Also SG and JP is 30 RES....fade is 50....you will need to be tripling the marine res intake to be able to get it as soon as that.
As if marines have jetpack and shotgun tech when they reach pres of 30. do you even play this game? I don't think it's even possible time/recourse income based. And even if it what that would mean you would have a hell of a tres income which would mean the marines should be on the winning side anyway.
I am not saying SG's are OP'd because 1 person went 32-1..but because 4 or 5 will decimate any aliens that they come across....hive rooms with a decent ceiling and that hive is going down 9/10 times.
So in your opinion 4 times 30 pRes including 20 tRes advanced armor, 40 tRes protolab + 25 tres jetpack research = 85 tres should not be able to wreak havoc inside a hive? For one if a team of 4 manages to kill a hive without backup they are good (or the aliens are bad). Second, they should be able to wreak havoc because it took quiet some effort and time to get that tech available....
We are talking about a total sum of 120 pRes. That is the equivalent of the one of the following groups:
-4 lerks
-2 fades and 2 gorges
-1 onos, 1 lerk and 1 roge.
And with 85 tres of update they will have like carapace, celerity, blink and or whatever combo. If you believe that either of those groups cannot achieve total chaos inside a marine base I am not sure which game you have been playing..... Probably a different one that I have.
I most certianly do play this game... Bought the game and have been playing this game since early beta days.
Its not exactly hard for marines to rush 2nd chair...get proto and research JP's in around 5 min ...your not getting any health packs or love from the comm but it is more than do-able.
You can get it up in around 5 min from memory....which often proved long enough for marines to get the 10 res they need (where as aliens need 3 times that (30 res) to afford the 50 res fade.
You where lucky to have fades up by the time the pushes came...and you rarely had blink researched in time.
Just because most comms seem to think that JP's are crap and people are mostly still playing with their exo candy doesn't change the fact that a team of JP'ing SG'ers is more of an issue than a team of exo's.
You can avoid those exo's...cant really do that with JP's...unless you dont mind attacking things of no value (ie not tech points)
@ Tarquinbb If only it was so simple...lets not forget beacon works with JP'ing marines...so I would say "out of the saucepan and into the fire" is more apt.
I most certianly do play this game... Bought the game and have been playing this game since early beta days.
Its not exactly hard for marines to rush 2nd chair...get proto and research JP's in around 5 min ...your not getting any health packs or love from the comm but it is more than do-able.
Even if so, meaning you did this probably means you don't have pg's, don't have mines and don't have any other weapons or armor upgrades. You might aswell call it a GG right there because jp/shotgun without armor/wp isn't a real good investment (of course it has it uses but how often do you seen this happen..).
You can get it up in around 5 min from memory....which often proved long enough for marines to get the 10 res they need (where as aliens need 3 times that (30 res) to afford the 50 res fade.
You where lucky to have fades up by the time the pushes came...and you rarely had blink researched in time.
Who even needs blink as a fade... Seriously especially after they simplefied shedowstep-jump in 240 you don't really need it except for those occasions where you rush into a over-extending situation for the team sake.
Just because most comms seem to think that JP's are crap and people are mostly still playing with their exo candy doesn't change the fact that a team of JP'ing SG'ers is more of an issue than a team of exo's.
You can avoid those exo's...cant really do that with JP's...unless you dont mind attacking things of no value (ie not tech points)
@ Tarquinbb If only it was so simple...lets not forget beacon works with JP'ing marines...so I would say "out of the saucepan and into the fire" is more apt.
Most comms think JP's are crap?!? Not sure in which world you have been playing but I almost never see comms research exo's before jp's and if they do it's most likely because the com is new at commanding.
But hey it's not a discussion wether jp's/shotgun are better then exo because they simply are.
@ Tarquinbb If only it was so simple...lets not forget beacon works with JP'ing marines...so I would say "out of the saucepan and into the fire" is more apt.
too late, the aliens didn't dilly dally and killed Obs before beacon, then power easily fell shortly after. it's now a base race situation and marines don't have spawn points or upgrades.
The main problem with the shotgun is that it's too powerful against skulks. The shotgun needs to be at its current level of power to deal with lerks/fades in an adequate fashion, but the weapon just takes a complete dump on skulks. It's one of the main reasons why losing your higher life form is such a terrible experience right now, and it just piles on to mid-late game problems with skulks being awful.
Personally, I'd just reduce the shotgun clip down to 4 instead of 8. A fully loaded shotgun would still have plenty of power against lerks/fades in 1v1 combat, but it'd get rid of the absolute silliness of one marine chain crushing 8 skulks over a period of 15 seconds.
Thing is, jetpacks don't actually accomplish anything.
If light marines can't walk into a hive and down it, jetpack marines won't be able to either. Jetpacks provide nothing but mobility, which is obviously useless when attacking stationery emplacements. To that end, jetpacks are a largely defensive upgrade, counter-intuitively.
Being mobile is not an offensive upgrade? Let's try making a fade walk and jump to his target instead of shadowstepping.
Sure, someone with good aim can get a jetpack and fly around the map, one shotting skulks in arb locations, but what is he actually accomplishing for the team?
The real question is why those skulks were in those arbitrary locations in the first place.
What do aliens have to compare to the shotgun?
onos.
That's great! And a good jetpack shotty will kill your 30res lerk in one blast and can also bait etc.
......
It's just like Gorgeous said, people who compare something res for res can usually be disregarded. But I will point out why you are wrong.
Anyone can go lerk in the first 5 mins. JPs require:
- getting a 2nd tech point
- comm station (15 res)
- advanced armory (20 res to upgrade?) and a good chunk of time to upgrade
- prototype lab (40 res)
- jp research (25 res) and some time to research
- jp (10 pres)
- shotgun (20 pres)
Besides, a good lerk knows how to deal with a JP shotty, and that doesn't include flying into his fully loaded shotgun to try and deliver a poison bite.
I personally don't think it's to powerful against skulks or whatever kind of life form. A lerk is also powerful against 1 marine but he gets useless against 4 marines, just as a marine with a shotgun get useless against 4 skulks (unless he is an awesome aim but even then he is likely to fail).
The main reason why most people dislike the shotgun is because they get one-shotted in the face when bunnyhopping around a corner and they dislike that idea because it makes them feel useless. Well a skulk (as in NS1) should be a sneaky / waiting around the corner type of life form not a full frontal jumping straight into the battle life form....
If you see a marine with a shotgun don't attack him yourself just wait till either a higher life form joins you or you are with a bunch of guys.
And the marine crushing 8 skulks in 15 seconds, common everyone knows that's totally bs. And if he manages to do this he is dam well granted that victory because the skulks are a totaly-non-teamplaying bunch of fails.
one quick point. JP + shotgun takes a fairly long time to get, 2 tech points, adv arm, proto, jp research, and im pretty sure a jp + sg aint gonna do you much good without weps and armour upgrades. So comparing the 30res for a lerk which can be achieved fairly quickly with the end game jp + sg isn't a good comparison.
one quick point. JP + shotgun takes a fairly long time to get, 2 tech points, adv arm, proto, jp research, and im pretty sure a jp + sg aint gonna do you much good without weps and armour upgrades. So comparing the 30res for a lerk which can be achieved fairly quickly with the end game jp + sg isn't a good comparison.
mem
It might seem like i'm comparing one thing vs another but that's not the idea of my previous point. What I meant to say was that it requires tactic to overcome certain enemies. Just saying a jp/shotgun marine is to powerful against a skulk is total nonsense.
So again it's not about what is better 1 on 1 but more of a overall game thing. The reason I compared a lerk against jp/shotung marine is just to illustrate a tactic.
If you wanna compare stuff in this game based on p or tres you might aswell say that a 15tres arc is useless because it cannot defend against a 5tres drifter.... (And yes drifters can attack if you did not know that).
yes but comparing a lerk or skulks to a jp/shotgun is fundamentally flawed because by that point in the game your team should also have fades, onos, etc. So if as a skulk or lerk you are just trying to run in and kill marines your likely to die unless the other person cant aim.
@ Tarquinbb If only it was so simple...lets not forget beacon works with JP'ing marines...so I would say "out of the saucepan and into the fire" is more apt.
too late, the aliens didn't dilly dally and killed Obs before beacon, then power easily fell shortly after. it's now a base race situation and marines don't have spawn points or upgrades.
Too late...marines keep pushing and take down the only alien hive GG.
It amazes me that people dont realise how strong JP and SG's are....oh well I guess being able to 1-2 shot all but an Onos is fine.
We went through this late beta with aliens being most unfun to play...we are heading back past that point and going further currently.
@ ryanmcaleese...it does not take that long if you rush it...heck you can get exo's by around 5 or so mins too.
These strats got used heavily and very successfully even if alien know its coming you cant do much to stop it.
It will only be a matter of time before people wise up to this...like it took a while for most comms to learn to play shade first differently (and not keep trying to lock down all the res points).
Once they do and are backed up by some players with an ability to aim you will see where the problem lies.
SG used to not 1 shot a lerk and this was supposedly balanced...now they do and you want to believe its still balanced.
Comments
good for aliens. killing more shotguns mean you have to deal with less pres spent on mines.
But yes if we didn't have exo's we would see more JP + SG rushes...and more hives going down. You can always beacon back those marines pushing that hive if the aliens push back....cant do that with exo's.
You can take down hives faster than aliens (when transit time included) can CC's so base trading worked for marines more than aliens (due to economy of lost upgrades).
Comp play.,..is very limited and only 6 v 6, where aliens are stronger due to marines scaling up better with numbers.
Take a look at NS2 stats prior to when we went retail (which was october 31st) and you will see a much heavier marine dominance...then go back about 6 months and check again...even more marine dominance.
Exo's lost marines more games than it won them....in fact it was joked about being a noob comm who went exo over JP's....now it seems everyone is a noob comm who does that.
Sadly aliens never had any overpowered weapons (Onos excluded)...though we did have feign death (which saved fades most of the time...but was crap on other lifeforms (and bug plagued)).
Aliens got most of their lifeforms early on...back when marines only had weapons upgrades and SG's...marines started getting all their toys...and best aliens got was 2nd or 3rd hive abilities (none of which are game changing (though shifts and the old stomp was a good griefer)).
Trust me you see some good JP'ers and SG'ers you wont ever want to go with exo's again.
Even now I rarely take an exo...I will spend money on SG's, FT'ers even mines...but rarely exo's.
Er, I wrote that, but the point was that it is incredibly hard to deal with in pubs, to the point where in the past few days I haven't seen aliens come back once from a marine team that decides to spam them. I don't know where the balance stats are coming from, but at least on my server, with our players evenly spreading between Marines and Aliens, Marines are completely decimating with SG+JP.
I mean for real? So let's say shotgun's get nerfed. Aliens will win more and then it's ALIENS ARE OP all over the place again.
Then what, we nerf the hell out of fades? We remove ONOS?
Shotgun is not op. That a skulk dies when a shotgun hit's him straight in the face is far from OP. A 35-2 jp/shotgun guy just knows how to aim and when to fire. He waits until your in his dead center aim and fire those 17 pellets straight in your face. Nothing OP about that.
Did you know it actually takes 3 shotgun hits to kill a cara-fade and that's when ALL the pellets hit? There is absolutely nothing OP about that. If you get hit 3 times and die you are over-extending way to much and you deserve to die anyway.
And even so I mean if marines get jp's and shotguns (aka at least mid to late-game) by the time a normal team gets jp and shotgun you should have enough res for at least a fade. If you don't then your team has probably already lost anyway.
And saying that because marines have a 30 pRes "something" does not mean alien need a 30 pRes equivalent. This game is asymmetrical for a reason.
It used to take three...now its 2...happened in conjunction with the spread change.
Also SG and JP is 30 RES....fade is 50....you will need to be tripling the marine res intake to be able to get it as soon as that.
I am not saying SG's are OP'd because 1 person went 32-1..but because 4 or 5 will decimate any aliens that they come across....hive rooms with a decent ceiling and that hive is going down 9/10 times.
Please don't start threads like these because you saw a player that was clearly better than average dominate your server.
You have to hit 4-6 times as a Fade against an a3 Marine depending on your accuracy.
You have to shoot a Carapace Fade twice with full hits to kill as w3, and as w2 2 full hits leaves them at 2 hp.
Sounds fair... not.
And now, what are the odds for a Carapace Fade against a nano-shielded medpacked Shotgun-Jetpacker?
While ONE or maybe TWO Shotgun-Jetpackers can be manageable by the aliens, a group of THREE or more covering each other just make a mess.
Add in a comm that supports with Nano Shield, Meds, Ammo and Scans and maybe a nice open hive location and you are screwed.
---
btw: I went 35:4 once.
As if marines have jetpack and shotgun tech when they reach pres of 30. do you even play this game? I don't think it's even possible time/recourse income based. And even if it what that would mean you would have a hell of a tres income which would mean the marines should be on the winning side anyway.
So in your opinion 4 times 30 pRes including 20 tRes advanced armor, 40 tRes protolab + 25 tres jetpack research = 85 tres should not be able to wreak havoc inside a hive? For one if a team of 4 manages to kill a hive without backup they are good (or the aliens are bad). Second, they should be able to wreak havoc because it took quiet some effort and time to get that tech available....
We are talking about a total sum of 120 pRes. That is the equivalent of the one of the following groups:
-4 lerks
-2 fades and 2 gorges
-1 onos, 1 lerk and 1 roge.
And with 85 tres of update they will have like carapace, celerity, blink and or whatever combo. If you believe that either of those groups cannot achieve total chaos inside a marine base I am not sure which game you have been playing..... Probably a different one that I have.
you ignore the marines attacking the hive and attack their main power. stale mate.
here we go round the mulberry bush...
I most certianly do play this game... Bought the game and have been playing this game since early beta days.
Its not exactly hard for marines to rush 2nd chair...get proto and research JP's in around 5 min ...your not getting any health packs or love from the comm but it is more than do-able.
You can get it up in around 5 min from memory....which often proved long enough for marines to get the 10 res they need (where as aliens need 3 times that (30 res) to afford the 50 res fade.
You where lucky to have fades up by the time the pushes came...and you rarely had blink researched in time.
Just because most comms seem to think that JP's are crap and people are mostly still playing with their exo candy doesn't change the fact that a team of JP'ing SG'ers is more of an issue than a team of exo's.
You can avoid those exo's...cant really do that with JP's...unless you dont mind attacking things of no value (ie not tech points)
@ Tarquinbb If only it was so simple...lets not forget beacon works with JP'ing marines...so I would say "out of the saucepan and into the fire" is more apt.
Who even needs blink as a fade... Seriously especially after they simplefied shedowstep-jump in 240 you don't really need it except for those occasions where you rush into a over-extending situation for the team sake.
Most comms think JP's are crap?!? Not sure in which world you have been playing but I almost never see comms research exo's before jp's and if they do it's most likely because the com is new at commanding.
But hey it's not a discussion wether jp's/shotgun are better then exo because they simply are.
too late, the aliens didn't dilly dally and killed Obs before beacon, then power easily fell shortly after. it's now a base race situation and marines don't have spawn points or upgrades.
Personally, I'd just reduce the shotgun clip down to 4 instead of 8. A fully loaded shotgun would still have plenty of power against lerks/fades in 1v1 combat, but it'd get rid of the absolute silliness of one marine chain crushing 8 skulks over a period of 15 seconds.
Being mobile is not an offensive upgrade? Let's try making a fade walk and jump to his target instead of shadowstepping.
The real question is why those skulks were in those arbitrary locations in the first place.
......
It's just like Gorgeous said, people who compare something res for res can usually be disregarded. But I will point out why you are wrong.
Anyone can go lerk in the first 5 mins. JPs require:
- getting a 2nd tech point
- comm station (15 res)
- advanced armory (20 res to upgrade?) and a good chunk of time to upgrade
- prototype lab (40 res)
- jp research (25 res) and some time to research
- jp (10 pres)
- shotgun (20 pres)
Besides, a good lerk knows how to deal with a JP shotty, and that doesn't include flying into his fully loaded shotgun to try and deliver a poison bite.
The main reason why most people dislike the shotgun is because they get one-shotted in the face when bunnyhopping around a corner and they dislike that idea because it makes them feel useless. Well a skulk (as in NS1) should be a sneaky / waiting around the corner type of life form not a full frontal jumping straight into the battle life form....
If you see a marine with a shotgun don't attack him yourself just wait till either a higher life form joins you or you are with a bunch of guys.
And the marine crushing 8 skulks in 15 seconds, common everyone knows that's totally bs. And if he manages to do this he is dam well granted that victory because the skulks are a totaly-non-teamplaying bunch of fails.
mem
It might seem like i'm comparing one thing vs another but that's not the idea of my previous point. What I meant to say was that it requires tactic to overcome certain enemies. Just saying a jp/shotgun marine is to powerful against a skulk is total nonsense.
So again it's not about what is better 1 on 1 but more of a overall game thing. The reason I compared a lerk against jp/shotung marine is just to illustrate a tactic.
If you wanna compare stuff in this game based on p or tres you might aswell say that a 15tres arc is useless because it cannot defend against a 5tres drifter.... (And yes drifters can attack if you did not know that).
Too late...marines keep pushing and take down the only alien hive GG.
It amazes me that people dont realise how strong JP and SG's are....oh well I guess being able to 1-2 shot all but an Onos is fine.
We went through this late beta with aliens being most unfun to play...we are heading back past that point and going further currently.
@ ryanmcaleese...it does not take that long if you rush it...heck you can get exo's by around 5 or so mins too.
These strats got used heavily and very successfully even if alien know its coming you cant do much to stop it.
It will only be a matter of time before people wise up to this...like it took a while for most comms to learn to play shade first differently (and not keep trying to lock down all the res points).
Once they do and are backed up by some players with an ability to aim you will see where the problem lies.
SG used to not 1 shot a lerk and this was supposedly balanced...now they do and you want to believe its still balanced.