Nonsense. Are you even thinking what you're saying through?
Mobility will guarantee a longer life for him. Which means that he will be able to put out more DPS and save himself (and his res) in tough situations. If you're the type of fool who stays in one place during firefights then sure. But if you're half smart you are gonna keep moving.
Try this next time you are playing with a couple of friends.
Get the marine team to, above all else, avoid death. Tell everyone on the marine team to prevent their death at any cost imaginable. See how well your team does. See how much of an impact a "longer life" has on victory.
You really are hellbent on saying mobility is useless. See how much of an impact something has when everyone is focused on that one person? What a ridiculous response.
In a firefight where skulks, lerks, fades and onos are trying to melee a group of marines, the jetpack ones will survive longer and do more damage. If you don't understand this simple concept, don't bother responding with any more posts.
The only reason why I imagine someone would deny the usefulness of mobility is a perma marine or someone who needs to shut off the computer and get some sleep.
So say you have three tech points secured as marines, and the aliens have 2 hives locked down tightly with crags, whips and shifts. The aliens are hit and running your res points and outposts. How will a jetpack win the game for your team?
I think something that gets lost in a lot of these threads, comparing one direct variable to another (ie: skulk vs marine. shotgun vs fade. etc.), is that its not taking the entire combat situation into consideration from a holistic point of view.
For example..
Yes and shotgun-marine will probably take out a skulk without too much problem.
But thats not taking into consideration things like...
bile bomb: obscured vision, armor loss, potential new targetting priority on gorge
spores: obscured vision, health loss, potential new aerial targetting priority on lerk
fades: puncture damage (may be using the obscured vision that bile bomb and spores provides as cover)
etc. etc.
My point is that while comparing apples to apples is fine, it doesn't ranslate well when comparing the entire basket of apples and oranges.... if that makes sense. I feel like I sound pretenious or something lol.
Personally I like to view the marines as this unstoppable force of ranged DPS and armor.
A ball of marines with slightly varying means to output high amounts of DPS in a relatively short amount of time.
While the aliens are so completely different in the way they play that you really have to use every weapon in your arsenal to shape the battlefield to your advantage.
Use Infestation Spikes to block bullets or trap marines, lay down spores (to blind, cause direct dmg to hp AND take away from a marine's dps output by forcing them to find a spot without gas to hide), spread umbra, bile bomb, ENZYME CLOUD. etc.
I know that marines are typicall seen as the race that requires more teamwork, but in a combat situation I feel that the alien team requires much more communcation and synchronized movements and ideal timings and battlefield modifiers. ESPECIALLY battle modifier, aliens are ALL ABOUT stacking battle modifiers.
What do I mean by battle modifiers? see above: spores, umbra, bile, enzyme cloud, stomp, infestation spike, nutrient mist, poison bite.
Well, the issue with direct comparisons is the same issue with comparing units in Starcraft 2. It's not unit costs X resource. Time to research, different resource value (i've heard the fact alien pres costs more than marine pres), research time, ease of use, etc. Mixing in this with the fact a player's skill effects and you have a VERY DIFFICULT way to directly compare things in NS2. This isn't even counting the fact people's machines are different so they might not be playing it to the same degree (and might actually be handycapping themselves with inferior computers, meaning skill is even MORE variable). The fact of the matter is balance in NS2 is a goal and job for UWE I don't envy and doubt will ever be achieved.
As for the shotgun: It's value goes from 0 to infinity depending on how well a marine can evade and aim. It's VERY similar to the fade in that regard and despite what people say, the even shotgun spread was better to avoid the sniper effect it sometimes produced. Is a shotgun marine strong? Yes, but in the hands of the Fane Tane Pain train, EVERYTHING is strong.
My best advice if you're having problems with it is to wait for the skulk acceleration hotfix and then play it as if it'll be like that situation forever. Meaning you'll have to adapt from then on because we can't predict if UWE will ever change anything in the future.
Can a fade theoretically one shot as many people he has bullets? No. Can he OHK un-upgraded marines? No. But a shotty marine with a jetpack can. For 20 res less.
Good players can use fades well. But they can use the shotty-jet combo far better.
That's not really true. One skill (aiming and positioning against melee enemies) is different from the other (hit and run against ranged enemies with a melee weapon)
You're correlating JP skill to Fade skill which really doesn't have a correlation. Just because you can JP/SG doesn't mean you're going to be the equivalent with a Fade.
Also, if JP/SG is so damn easy why doesn't the marine commander rush shotguns for all games. Quite evidently if it can just kill everything in one shot, ALL marines should get it and never die. Ever. and get 50:4 kill ratios. This isn't the gorge, an entire team can go SG/JP effectively. If this weapon is is so Overpowered then the moment it shows up aliens will have no chance of winning. The alien team should cower in fear like "marines when they hear Fades are out" the moment shotguns appear.
Why weren't Fades and Onos dying left and right pre-patch? Why weren't marines winning left right and center with this weapon pre-patch? Why was it still competitive 65:35 aliens/marines win ratio pre-patch?
Reapers were overpowered in old SC2: WoL. Zergs literally had no way to defeat a reaper build and were always crippled by reaper attacks. With little to no skill, Terran players could kill a zerg with reapers and there was literally nothing they could do. Those were overpowered.
This weapon just has a wide skill range with a high skill ceiling.
The biggest problem new players have with jetpacks is that they feel truly unstoppable when the alien team is already beaten. Unfortunately, inexperienced players struggle to tell when their early game mistakes cost them the game, and don't concede.
I think something that gets lost in a lot of these threads, comparing one direct variable to another (ie: skulk vs marine. shotgun vs fade. etc.), is that its not taking the entire combat situation into consideration from a holistic point of view.
For example..
Yes and shotgun-marine will probably take out a skulk without too much problem.
But thats not taking into consideration things like...
bile bomb: obscured vision, armor loss, potential new targetting priority on gorge
spores: obscured vision, health loss, potential new aerial targetting priority on lerk
fades: puncture damage (may be using the obscured vision that bile bomb and spores provides as cover)
etc. etc.
My point is that while comparing apples to apples is fine, it doesn't ranslate well when comparing the entire basket of apples and oranges.... if that makes sense. I feel like I sound pretenious or something lol.
Personally I like to view the marines as this unstoppable force of ranged DPS and armor.
A ball of marines with slightly varying means to output high amounts of DPS in a relatively short amount of time.
While the aliens are so completely different in the way they play that you really have to use every weapon in your arsenal to shape the battlefield to your advantage.
Use Infestation Spikes to block bullets or trap marines, lay down spores (to blind, cause direct dmg to hp AND take away from a marine's dps output by forcing them to find a spot without gas to hide), spread umbra, bile bomb, ENZYME CLOUD. etc.
I know that marines are typicall seen as the race that requires more teamwork, but in a combat situation I feel that the alien team requires much more communcation and synchronized movements and ideal timings and battlefield modifiers. ESPECIALLY battle modifier, aliens are ALL ABOUT stacking battle modifiers.
What do I mean by battle modifiers? see above: spores, umbra, bile, enzyme cloud, stomp, infestation spike, nutrient mist, poison bite.
Well, the issue with direct comparisons is the same issue with comparing units in Starcraft 2. It's not unit costs X resource. Time to research, different resource value (i've heard the fact alien pres costs more than marine pres), research time, ease of use, etc. Mixing in this with the fact a player's skill effects and you have a VERY DIFFICULT way to directly compare things in NS2. This isn't even counting the fact people's machines are different so they might not be playing it to the same degree (and might actually be handycapping themselves with inferior computers, meaning skill is even MORE variable). The fact of the matter is balance in NS2 is a goal and job for UWE I don't envy and doubt will ever be achieved.
As for the shotgun: It's value goes from 0 to infinity depending on how well a marine can evade and aim. It's VERY similar to the fade in that regard and despite what people say, the even shotgun spread was better to avoid the sniper effect it sometimes produced. Is a shotgun marine strong? Yes, but in the hands of the Fane Tane Pain train, EVERYTHING is strong.
My best advice if you're having problems with it is to wait for the skulk acceleration hotfix and then play it as if it'll be like that situation forever. Meaning you'll have to adapt from then on because we can't predict if UWE will ever change anything in the future.
Can a fade theoretically one shot as many people he has bullets? No. Can he OHK un-upgraded marines? No. But a shotty marine with a jetpack can. For 20 res less.
Good players can use fades well. But they can use the shotty-jet combo far better.
That's not really true. One skill (aiming and positioning against melee enemies) is different from the other (hit and run against ranged enemies with a melee weapon)
You're correlating JP skill to Fade skill which really doesn't have a correlation. Just because you can JP/SG doesn't mean you're going to be the equivalent with a Fade.
Also, if JP/SG is so damn easy why doesn't the marine commander rush shotguns for all games. Quite evidently if it can just kill everything in one shot, ALL marines should get it and never die. Ever. and get 50:4 kill ratios. This isn't the gorge, an entire team can go SG/JP effectively. If this weapon is is so Overpowered then the moment it shows up aliens will have no chance of winning. The alien team should cower in fear like "marines when they hear Fades are out" the moment shotguns appear.
Why weren't Fades and Onos dying left and right pre-patch? Why weren't marines winning left right and center with this weapon pre-patch? Why was it still competitive 65:35 aliens/marines win ratio pre-patch?
Reapers were overpowered in old SC2: WoL. Zergs literally had no way to defeat a reaper build and were always crippled by reaper attacks. With little to no skill, Terran players could kill a zerg with reapers and there was literally nothing they could do. Those were overpowered.
This weapon just has a wide skill range with a high skill ceiling.
Sorry but a SG'er can kill as many skulks as bulletts...same way a skulk can kill a marine with 3 bites.
These are hard facts...the frequency is another matter but the possibility is there.
You can 1 shot a lerk with a SG and skulks die just as easily....sure some aiming is required but it is also required for aliens (especially with the erratic parasite).
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Ahahaha funny that you believe that....I have seen it done on many occasions against good players.
WTF is with this "5" players...game can have up to 12 a side you know.
Just because comp games are 6 v 6 doesn't mean jack...if UWE wanted to limit server size they can.
Which was why Endar tried the 100 player server....UWE removed the previous player number limit (was 40 I think...).
Even so 5 good JP'ing marines with SG's will destroy any aliens in most tech points (datacore being one exception).
This is why we had leap able to be researched on 1 hive for a part of the beta...as a way to allow 1 hive aliens a chance against JP'ers.
I routinely kill decent shotgunning jetpackers as a lerk, and good fades can accomplish this feat even more effectively. As a marine, I routinely kill good lerks as a shotgunning jetpacker.
Learning how to use your mobility to your advantage is everything.
Clearly, jetpack shotgun is only beatable by onos!11. Lerks are useless!1!! OMG 1 shot every time!!!
Well, Lerks are a support class only! Nobody should ever, ever be able to go 40-1 with a Lerk.
This is a joke, right? I once dropped a Lerk egg at the start of a round and had a friend take it. By the end of the round, he was 48 kills with no deaths and on 100 res. A Lerk is an amazing killer given the proper usage. Hell, I went Red Baron on a bunch of players earlier in Gravity Control on Descent.
And to answer the question of this thread... nothing. Shotguns are a direct counter to the main way for the alien team to deal damage, and the only comparable instance would be Lerk Spikes which aren't so effective as to be compared.
When I research shotguns and jetpacks for my marine teams, I know very well that the only way they'd lose at that point is an Onos explosion or being very, very bad.
Clearly, jetpack shotgun is only beatable by onos!11. Lerks are useless!1!! OMG 1 shot every time!!!
Well, Lerks are a support class only! Nobody should ever, ever be able to go 40-1 with a Lerk.
This is a joke, right? I once dropped a Lerk egg at the start of a round and had a friend take it. By the end of the round, he was 48 kills with no deaths and on 100 res. A Lerk is an amazing killer given the proper usage. Hell, I went Red Baron on a bunch of players earlier in Gravity Control on Descent.
This is exactly right. Decent lerks have great killing power, and smart lerks have fantastic survivability.
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Ahahaha funny that you believe that....I have seen it done on many occasions against good players.
WTF is with this "5" players...game can have up to 12 a side you know.
Just because comp games are 6 v 6 doesn't mean jack...if UWE wanted to limit server size they can.
Which was why Endar tried the 100 player server....UWE removed the previous player number limit (was 40 I think...).
Even so 5 good JP'ing marines with SG's will destroy any aliens in most tech points (datacore being one exception).
This is why we had leap able to be researched on 1 hive for a part of the beta...as a way to allow 1 hive aliens a chance against JP'ers.
Well, if I said 20 second head start with 11 jetpackers, you could just roll in with pistols and have the hive down in that amount of time. Needless to say that 11 jetpackers strolling into a hive room with 11 aliens of any kind defending it would all be annihilated though.
Fades should never die in their own hive room. It simply isn't possible to do if you are competent.
You want to focus on dodging the fade? You die to the skulk.
You want to actively pursue the fade and kill it? You die to the skulk.
Then, there is the issue of jetpacker damage output.
You take an LMG? You aren't going to be killing any aliens.
You take a shotgun? You better be at most 5 meters away from the hive when firing, in which case you die to the skulk.
Then there's the issue of crag's mega heal stacking well beyond 3 crags.
You fly into the hive and rapidly put it down to 10% hp? I trigger 6 crags and get it to 100% in under 10 seconds.
The reason most people think jetpack rushes are good is because they are thinking of a time when whips were retarded and couldn't even hit half a grenade back, compared to now where, in order to stop 5 jepack/GL marines, I would need 2 whips. Maybe 3 if I felt like wasting money.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Dibs Archaea with shotguns! In cargo!
Edit (with numbers):
5 * 187 * 8 = 7480 damage per clip for all players with W0 shotguns
8800 mature hive effective health vs. normal
can't find the RoF and reload time, but my guess is that things look pretty grim for the hive, much worse at W3
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Dibs Archaea with shotguns! In cargo!
Edit (with numbers):
5 * 187 * 8 = 7480 damage per clip for all players with W0 shotguns
8800 mature hive effective health vs. normal
can't find the RoF and reload time, but my guess is that things look pretty grim for the hive, much worse at W3
Why not just let the hive live for fun? Just sit outside the hive room and cut off expansion for laughs. Let's find out how "useless" jetpacks and shotguns are if the aliens can't get any res.
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Ahahaha funny that you believe that....I have seen it done on many occasions against good players.
WTF is with this "5" players...game can have up to 12 a side you know.
Just because comp games are 6 v 6 doesn't mean jack...if UWE wanted to limit server size they can.
Which was why Endar tried the 100 player server....UWE removed the previous player number limit (was 40 I think...).
Even so 5 good JP'ing marines with SG's will destroy any aliens in most tech points (datacore being one exception).
This is why we had leap able to be researched on 1 hive for a part of the beta...as a way to allow 1 hive aliens a chance against JP'ers.
Well, if I said 20 second head start with 11 jetpackers, you could just roll in with pistols and have the hive down in that amount of time. Needless to say that 11 jetpackers strolling into a hive room with 11 aliens of any kind defending it would all be annihilated though.
Fades should never die in their own hive room. It simply isn't possible to do if you are competent.
You want to focus on dodging the fade? You die to the skulk.
You want to actively pursue the fade and kill it? You die to the skulk.
Then, there is the issue of jetpacker damage output.
You take an LMG? You aren't going to be killing any aliens.
You take a shotgun? You better be at most 5 meters away from the hive when firing, in which case you die to the skulk.
Then there's the issue of crag's mega heal stacking well beyond 3 crags.
You fly into the hive and rapidly put it down to 10% hp? I trigger 6 crags and get it to 100% in under 10 seconds.
The reason most people think jetpack rushes are good is because they are thinking of a time when whips were retarded and couldn't even hit half a grenade back, compared to now where, in order to stop 5 jepack/GL marines, I would need 2 whips. Maybe 3 if I felt like wasting money.
I have been subjected to months of beta gameplay where SG AND JP rushes reigned supreme.
This is not something new and was complained about back then..nothing has changed to address this.
New features (ie exo's) has meant this is less common as people wanted to exo more than win.
Good marines know to take out crags before hive (not exactly tough) so 3 crags are not an issue.
Fades die from 2 SG's....so having multiple SG's in a hive room is close to a death warrant for that fade unless he spends most time hiding/healing.
Lerks die to just 1 shot of a SG...so your two best defenders can take more than 1 shot or 2 before they die and are GONE.
This JP SG issue has been talked about for a long time...notice some of the more marine biased people are even saying the cost needs to go up (JP's in particular at 10 res are too cheap).
Funny that Savant in another post was saying how you could not allow for skulks to be able to 2 shot an a0 marine...yet marines have multiple instagibs at their dispossal.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Dibs Archaea with shotguns! In cargo!
Edit (with numbers):
5 * 187 * 8 = 7480 damage per clip for all players with W0 shotguns
8800 mature hive effective health vs. normal
can't find the RoF and reload time, but my guess is that things look pretty grim for the hive, much worse at W3
Why not just let the hive live for fun? Just sit outside the hive room and cut off expansion for laughs. Let's find out how "useless" jetpacks and shotguns are if the aliens can't get any res.
Nicely done.
You just lost your entire base to two gorges though. I guess you found out just how useless a stationery jetpack is when its main strength is mobility.
I'll give you a second change though. You can either go back and defend, or apply pressure in a hive room you don't have the DPS to clear, against aliens which are endlessly reinforced and always under massive healing affects, flying around as a glass cannon that cannot hope to survive continuous damage.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Dibs Archaea with shotguns! In cargo!
Edit (with numbers):
5 * 187 * 8 = 7480 damage per clip for all players with W0 shotguns
8800 mature hive effective health vs. normal
can't find the RoF and reload time, but my guess is that things look pretty grim for the hive, much worse at W3
Why not just let the hive live for fun? Just sit outside the hive room and cut off expansion for laughs. Let's find out how "useless" jetpacks and shotguns are if the aliens can't get any res.
Nicely done.
You just lost your entire base to two gorges though. I guess you found out just how useless a stationery jetpack is when its main strength is mobility.
I'll give you a second change though. You can either go back and defend, or apply pressure in a hive room you don't have the DPS to clear, against aliens which are endlessly reinforced and always under massive healing affects, flying around as a glass cannon that cannot hope to survive continuous damage.
Nope in the few seconds it takes those marines to unload and kill the hive the comm can still beacon you back to defend that base...
Consider that, of all places on the map, the hive room is where aliens are strongest, and least likely to die.
If fades, lerks and onos are being dispatched with the ease you seem to think they are in their hive room, then they would be at least twice as easy to kill anywhere else on the map. If this was indeed true, then rushing shotguns and jetpacks would surely be the dominant strategy for marines in competitive play.
In fact I think I recall seeing this strategy used quite often a few weeks ago. You know, back when marines lost constantly and fades completely dominated marines, jetpack or not. Nothing has changed with respects to fade/lerk/jetpack combat since then. It didn't win games then, it isn't winning games now.
Strofix in any competitive NS2 game you have ever watched how do the Marines kill a hive?
1 - Marines
2 - ARC's
So based off your logic how exactly do any Hives EVER die in any comp games where no ARC's are used?
EDIT: Please go back to jail.
We are having a discussion here, I think you need to calm down.
Marines definitely kill hives, but lets be a bit more clear. Its not simply marines, its sustained marine pressure, through constant resupply and continuous attack. This is the exact reason why jetpack marines do not kill hives.
When was the last time you saw a jetpack rush on a hive get reinforced by more jetpack marines? You don't. It doesn't happen. By the time the first jetpack marine to die gets back to the hive, the rush has either already succeeded, or it has already failed. Jetpack rushes are one hit wonders, with no sustained pressure. And if you have a phase gate outside the alien hive streaming jetpackers in constantly, then the game is already over, and it wasn't the jetpack rush that won it.
As has been said over and over again, the jetpacker's main strength is mobility. The ability to move across the map far more rapidly than a normal marine. So what good is that in 90% of hive rooms? Why would a jetpacker perform meaningfully better than a light marine with a shotgun when assaulting a hive? You think you can just have it because its an improvement, even if its not a meaningful one? If thats your attitude, in a resource based RTS game, then chances are you have already lost to a team that is correctly min maxing.
There is something, something that has no mobility. Something that has massive DPS in a very small effective area. Its called an Exo, or a hive killer. Its the smart thing to send in. Not a light marine who can hit his head on the ceiling if he wants to.
Strofix in any competitive NS2 game you have ever watched how do the Marines kill a hive?
1 - Marines
2 - ARC's
So based off your logic how exactly do any Hives EVER die in any comp games where no ARC's are used?
EDIT: Please go back to jail.
We are having a discussion here, I think you need to calm down.
Marines definitely kill hives, but lets be a bit more clear. Its not simply marines, its sustained marine pressure, through constant resupply and continuous attack. This is the exact reason why jetpack marines do not kill hives.
When was the last time you saw a jetpack rush on a hive get reinforced by more jetpack marines? You don't. It doesn't happen. By the time the first jetpack marine to die gets back to the hive, the rush has either already succeeded, or it has already failed. Jetpack rushes are one hit wonders, with no sustained pressure. And if you have a phase gate outside the alien hive streaming jetpackers in constantly, then the game is already over, and it wasn't the jetpack rush that won it.
As has been said over and over again, the jetpacker's main strength is mobility. The ability to move across the map far more rapidly than a normal marine. So what good is that in 90% of hive rooms? Why would a jetpacker perform meaningfully better than a light marine with a shotgun when assaulting a hive? You think you can just have it because its an improvement, even if its not a meaningful one? If thats your attitude, in a resource based RTS game, then chances are you have already lost to a team that is correctly min maxing.
There is something, something that has no mobility. Something that has massive DPS in a very small effective area. Its called an Exo, or a hive killer. Its the smart thing to send in. Not a light marine who can hit his head on the ceiling if he wants to.
This same mobility allows him to stay out of strike range, JP's are meant to be fast and weak (where exos slow and strong)...just a shame this doesn't hold water once the marine gets a SG.
Atleast with a LMG you stand a greater chance of doing atleast 1 bite of damage...when you get 1shotted by a SG this doesn't happen.
I must assume you did not play in the beta strofix....otherwise you would recognise how OP'd SG and JP's are.
You would know that the JP allows the marine to stay out of bite range for skulks, to "kite" Onii and stay away from those pesky aliens trying to bite you.
The fact that most tech rooms are JP friendly (warehouse is a good example...but it is not alone) does not help.
JP rushes are crap in datacore but great in sub, atrium or flight.... so 3/5's of the map.
I am just happy that a lot of comms go exo and not jp's...means we have to deal with fewer JP + SG.....marines on the ground are 100 x easier to kill than a marine that a skulk cant hit without leap (or even with leap if the marines good).
Strofix in any competitive NS2 game you have ever watched how do the Marines kill a hive?
1 - Marines
2 - ARC's
So based off your logic how exactly do any Hives EVER die in any comp games where no ARC's are used?
EDIT: Please go back to jail.
We are having a discussion here, I think you need to calm down.
Marines definitely kill hives, but lets be a bit more clear. Its not simply marines, its sustained marine pressure, through constant resupply and continuous attack. This is the exact reason why jetpack marines do not kill hives.
When was the last time you saw a jetpack rush on a hive get reinforced by more jetpack marines? You don't. It doesn't happen. By the time the first jetpack marine to die gets back to the hive, the rush has either already succeeded, or it has already failed. Jetpack rushes are one hit wonders, with no sustained pressure. And if you have a phase gate outside the alien hive streaming jetpackers in constantly, then the game is already over, and it wasn't the jetpack rush that won it.
As has been said over and over again, the jetpacker's main strength is mobility. The ability to move across the map far more rapidly than a normal marine. So what good is that in 90% of hive rooms? Why would a jetpacker perform meaningfully better than a light marine with a shotgun when assaulting a hive? You think you can just have it because its an improvement, even if its not a meaningful one? If thats your attitude, in a resource based RTS game, then chances are you have already lost to a team that is correctly min maxing.
There is something, something that has no mobility. Something that has massive DPS in a very small effective area. Its called an Exo, or a hive killer. Its the smart thing to send in. Not a light marine who can hit his head on the ceiling if he wants to.
This same mobility allows him to stay out of strike range, JP's are meant to be fast and weak (where exos slow and strong)...just a shame this doesn't hold water once the marine gets a SG.
Atleast with a LMG you stand a greater chance of doing atleast 1 bite of damage...when you get 1shotted by a SG this doesn't happen.
I must assume you did not play in the beta strofix....otherwise you would recognise how OP'd SG and JP's are.
You would know that the JP allows the marine to stay out of bite range for skulks, to "kite" Onii and stay away from those pesky aliens trying to bite you.
The fact that most tech rooms are JP friendly (warehouse is a good example...but it is not alone) does not help.
JP rushes are crap in datacore but great in sub, atrium or flight.... so 3/5's of the map.
I am just happy that a lot of comms go exo and not jp's...means we have to deal with fewer JP + SG.....marines on the ground are 100 x easier to kill than a marine that a skulk cant hit without leap (or even with leap if the marines good).
Quite a typical mistake I see many people make in this game.
You think because someone is there, you must attack him. Because there is a jetpacker in the hive, I must leap at him and try bite him, even though I will probably die.
What can that jetpacker do besides kill you as a skulk?
Shoot the hive from range? 3 crags will outheal that.
Get down close and shoot the hive? Is he going to shoot the hive and you at the same time? Is the Onos going to let him do it?
In the mean time, the hydras and lerks whittle them down. And sorry, but if a Lerk is atively attacked and killed in his own hive, he is just a plain bad lerk. Its hopelessly easy to get away from a jetpacker if you aren't trying to bite the end of his shotgun.
If a group of jetpackers fly into your hive and kill every single alien and then kill every single egg, do you really think they needed the jetpackers to beat you? I think you had some team problems to begin with.
And I'm not quite sure why you keep talking about the beta. You say yourself that nothing has changed, so what has the beta got to do with it? It seems like you just like talking about the beta.
Oh, and yes, I had around 450 hours logged on October 31st.
I think something that gets lost in a lot of these threads, comparing one direct variable to another (ie: skulk vs marine. shotgun vs fade. etc.), is that its not taking the entire combat situation into consideration from a holistic point of view.
For example..
Yes and shotgun-marine will probably take out a skulk without too much problem.
But thats not taking into consideration things like...
bile bomb: obscured vision, armor loss, potential new targetting priority on gorge
spores: obscured vision, health loss, potential new aerial targetting priority on lerk
fades: puncture damage (may be using the obscured vision that bile bomb and spores provides as cover)
etc. etc.
My point is that while comparing apples to apples is fine, it doesn't ranslate well when comparing the entire basket of apples and oranges.... if that makes sense. I feel like I sound pretenious or something lol.
Personally I like to view the marines as this unstoppable force of ranged DPS and armor.
A ball of marines with slightly varying means to output high amounts of DPS in a relatively short amount of time.
While the aliens are so completely different in the way they play that you really have to use every weapon in your arsenal to shape the battlefield to your advantage.
Use Infestation Spikes to block bullets or trap marines, lay down spores (to blind, cause direct dmg to hp AND take away from a marine's dps output by forcing them to find a spot without gas to hide), spread umbra, bile bomb, ENZYME CLOUD. etc.
I know that marines are typicall seen as the race that requires more teamwork, but in a combat situation I feel that the alien team requires much more communcation and synchronized movements and ideal timings and battlefield modifiers. ESPECIALLY battle modifier, aliens are ALL ABOUT stacking battle modifiers.
What do I mean by battle modifiers? see above: spores, umbra, bile, enzyme cloud, stomp, infestation spike, nutrient mist, poison bite.
Well, the issue with direct comparisons is the same issue with comparing units in Starcraft 2. It's not unit costs X resource. Time to research, different resource value (i've heard the fact alien pres costs more than marine pres), research time, ease of use, etc. Mixing in this with the fact a player's skill effects and you have a VERY DIFFICULT way to directly compare things in NS2. This isn't even counting the fact people's machines are different so they might not be playing it to the same degree (and might actually be handycapping themselves with inferior computers, meaning skill is even MORE variable). The fact of the matter is balance in NS2 is a goal and job for UWE I don't envy and doubt will ever be achieved.
As for the shotgun: It's value goes from 0 to infinity depending on how well a marine can evade and aim. It's VERY similar to the fade in that regard and despite what people say, the even shotgun spread was better to avoid the sniper effect it sometimes produced. Is a shotgun marine strong? Yes, but in the hands of the Fane Tane Pain train, EVERYTHING is strong.
My best advice if you're having problems with it is to wait for the skulk acceleration hotfix and then play it as if it'll be like that situation forever. Meaning you'll have to adapt from then on because we can't predict if UWE will ever change anything in the future.
Can a fade theoretically one shot as many people he has bullets? No. Can he OHK un-upgraded marines? No. But a shotty marine with a jetpack can. For 20 res less.
Good players can use fades well. But they can use the shotty-jet combo far better.
That's not really true. One skill (aiming and positioning against melee enemies) is different from the other (hit and run against ranged enemies with a melee weapon)
You're correlating JP skill to Fade skill which really doesn't have a correlation. Just because you can JP/SG doesn't mean you're going to be the equivalent with a Fade.
Also, if JP/SG is so damn easy why doesn't the marine commander rush shotguns for all games. Quite evidently if it can just kill everything in one shot, ALL marines should get it and never die. Ever. and get 50:4 kill ratios. This isn't the gorge, an entire team can go SG/JP effectively. If this weapon is is so Overpowered then the moment it shows up aliens will have no chance of winning. The alien team should cower in fear like "marines when they hear Fades are out" the moment shotguns appear.
Why weren't Fades and Onos dying left and right pre-patch? Why weren't marines winning left right and center with this weapon pre-patch? Why was it still competitive 65:35 aliens/marines win ratio pre-patch?
Reapers were overpowered in old SC2: WoL. Zergs literally had no way to defeat a reaper build and were always crippled by reaper attacks. With little to no skill, Terran players could kill a zerg with reapers and there was literally nothing they could do. Those were overpowered.
This weapon just has a wide skill range with a high skill ceiling.
Sorry but a SG'er can kill as many skulks as bulletts...same way a skulk can kill a marine with 3 bites.
These are hard facts...the frequency is another matter but the possibility is there.
You can 1 shot a lerk with a SG and skulks die just as easily....sure some aiming is required but it is also required for aliens (especially with the erratic parasite).
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
No, I didn't play during the beta process. My experience was mostly during 237-239.
So what you're telling me is if Exos were removed from the game we'd see more marines win? What... I mean, I don't disagree (the Exos are only good for defending or when you've "skill-wise" already won. I mean, they're fun but JPs are just more effective. Perhaps Rails will turn that around.)
The issue I have is... if these JP/SGer are so good, why was the competitive scene so bad? Were the marines that played competitively just horrible players? I mean, you're making it out as if SGs are overpowered, and yet marines lost 70% of competitive games. If this weapon is so good, then good players shouldn't be losing 70% of games. Pubs were about 55:45 for aliens. If this weapon is so good, then aliens must have had an even MORE overpowered weapon/ability to compensate for this to not only overcome the SG/JP's power but BEAT it and swing the win rates over.
If NS2Stats had marines winning then I'd agree and say we take a look, but the stats aren't adding up pre-patch.
Also, if JP/SG is so damn easy why doesn't the marine commander rush shotguns for all games. [...] If this weapon is is so Overpowered then the moment it shows up aliens will have no chance of winning. The alien team should cower in fear like "marines when they hear Fades are out" the moment shotguns appear.
[...]
I dunno about competitive play, but this is kind of exactly what's happening right now in public matches.
This is a joke, right? I once dropped a Lerk egg at the start of a round and had a friend take it. By the end of the round, he was 48 kills with no deaths and on 100 res. A Lerk is an amazing killer given the proper usage. Hell, I went Red Baron on a bunch of players earlier in Gravity Control on Descent.
Lerk killing power is sort of misrepresented in an average pub. Mechanics like poison bite/spikes are disproportionately powerful when you have a marine comm who doesn't actively support marines fighting the lerk. A group of 2 marines or more that's actively getting medpacks is pretty much untouchable by a single lerk (provided those 2 marines can shoot).
Can a fade theoretically one shot as many people he has bullets? No. Can he OHK un-upgraded marines? No. But a shotty marine with a jetpack can. For 20 res less.
Good players can use fades well. But they can use the shotty-jet combo far better.
who cares about arbitrary factors like OHK?
fade can kill an AR marine and there's nothing the marine can do about it. you need 5 seconds of almost 100% accuracy to have a chance, because once you're reloading it's game over. how is that different to OHK? it's not like the marine has a chance to escape.
comparatively a skulk could ambush and kill a shotgun marine in 1-2 seconds of bite accuracy, with a small chance to escape by leaping into a vent etc.
i've already given you the answer... marines with shotgun + jetpack is either super lategame or alien team sucks, therefore if aliens were playing properly you should have onos out to counteract jetpack.
it's meant to be super hard to play no onos vs jetpack, it's exactly the reverse of no jetpack vs onos.
This is a joke, right? I once dropped a Lerk egg at the start of a round and had a friend take it. By the end of the round, he was 48 kills with no deaths and on 100 res. A Lerk is an amazing killer given the proper usage. Hell, I went Red Baron on a bunch of players earlier in Gravity Control on Descent.
Lerk killing power is sort of misrepresented in an average pub. Mechanics like poison bite/spikes are disproportionately powerful when you have a marine comm who doesn't actively support marines fighting the lerk. A group of 2 marines or more that's actively getting medpacks is pretty much untouchable by a single lerk (provided those 2 marines can shoot).
That and, for all intents and purposes, the shotgun is a "hard counter" to the lerks killing power. Not a hard counter to the lerk, mind you, it just makes it almost impossible to reliably kill marines, while feeling confident that you will survive for more than 10 seconds.
Comments
Clearly, jetpack shotgun is only beatable by onos!11. Lerks are useless!1!! OMG 1 shot every time!!!
So say you have three tech points secured as marines, and the aliens have 2 hives locked down tightly with crags, whips and shifts. The aliens are hit and running your res points and outposts. How will a jetpack win the game for your team?
Jetpacks for just 10 res will help you get around the map far quicker and engage far better. Done. It wasn't that hard was it?
Now please leave this thread.
That's not really true. One skill (aiming and positioning against melee enemies) is different from the other (hit and run against ranged enemies with a melee weapon)
You're correlating JP skill to Fade skill which really doesn't have a correlation. Just because you can JP/SG doesn't mean you're going to be the equivalent with a Fade.
Also, if JP/SG is so damn easy why doesn't the marine commander rush shotguns for all games. Quite evidently if it can just kill everything in one shot, ALL marines should get it and never die. Ever. and get 50:4 kill ratios. This isn't the gorge, an entire team can go SG/JP effectively. If this weapon is is so Overpowered then the moment it shows up aliens will have no chance of winning. The alien team should cower in fear like "marines when they hear Fades are out" the moment shotguns appear.
Why weren't Fades and Onos dying left and right pre-patch? Why weren't marines winning left right and center with this weapon pre-patch? Why was it still competitive 65:35 aliens/marines win ratio pre-patch?
Reapers were overpowered in old SC2: WoL. Zergs literally had no way to defeat a reaper build and were always crippled by reaper attacks. With little to no skill, Terran players could kill a zerg with reapers and there was literally nothing they could do. Those were overpowered.
This weapon just has a wide skill range with a high skill ceiling.
Well, Lerks are a support class only! Nobody should ever, ever be able to go 40-1 with a Lerk.
Sorry but a SG'er can kill as many skulks as bulletts...same way a skulk can kill a marine with 3 bites.
These are hard facts...the frequency is another matter but the possibility is there.
You can 1 shot a lerk with a SG and skulks die just as easily....sure some aiming is required but it is also required for aliens (especially with the erratic parasite).
Did you play much during the beta process?
I ask as before exo's JP and shotty rush was an easy win so your questioning why makes me wonder if you didn't.
The reason its less common now is more people still think exo's are better....naive fools.
Any 5 players you like, weilding jetpacks and any weapon you like. I'll give you a 20 second headstart on the hive room before the aliens begin to defend it.
I promise you, you won't take the hive down.
Ahahaha funny that you believe that....I have seen it done on many occasions against good players.
WTF is with this "5" players...game can have up to 12 a side you know.
Just because comp games are 6 v 6 doesn't mean jack...if UWE wanted to limit server size they can.
Which was why Endar tried the 100 player server....UWE removed the previous player number limit (was 40 I think...).
Even so 5 good JP'ing marines with SG's will destroy any aliens in most tech points (datacore being one exception).
This is why we had leap able to be researched on 1 hive for a part of the beta...as a way to allow 1 hive aliens a chance against JP'ers.
Learning how to use your mobility to your advantage is everything.
This is a joke, right? I once dropped a Lerk egg at the start of a round and had a friend take it. By the end of the round, he was 48 kills with no deaths and on 100 res. A Lerk is an amazing killer given the proper usage. Hell, I went Red Baron on a bunch of players earlier in Gravity Control on Descent.
And to answer the question of this thread... nothing. Shotguns are a direct counter to the main way for the alien team to deal damage, and the only comparable instance would be Lerk Spikes which aren't so effective as to be compared.
When I research shotguns and jetpacks for my marine teams, I know very well that the only way they'd lose at that point is an Onos explosion or being very, very bad.
Well, if I said 20 second head start with 11 jetpackers, you could just roll in with pistols and have the hive down in that amount of time. Needless to say that 11 jetpackers strolling into a hive room with 11 aliens of any kind defending it would all be annihilated though.
Fades should never die in their own hive room. It simply isn't possible to do if you are competent.
You want to focus on dodging the fade? You die to the skulk.
You want to actively pursue the fade and kill it? You die to the skulk.
Then, there is the issue of jetpacker damage output.
You take an LMG? You aren't going to be killing any aliens.
You take a shotgun? You better be at most 5 meters away from the hive when firing, in which case you die to the skulk.
Then there's the issue of crag's mega heal stacking well beyond 3 crags.
You fly into the hive and rapidly put it down to 10% hp? I trigger 6 crags and get it to 100% in under 10 seconds.
The reason most people think jetpack rushes are good is because they are thinking of a time when whips were retarded and couldn't even hit half a grenade back, compared to now where, in order to stop 5 jepack/GL marines, I would need 2 whips. Maybe 3 if I felt like wasting money.
Dibs Archaea with shotguns! In cargo!
Edit (with numbers):
5 * 187 * 8 = 7480 damage per clip for all players with W0 shotguns
8800 mature hive effective health vs. normal
can't find the RoF and reload time, but my guess is that things look pretty grim for the hive, much worse at W3
Why not just let the hive live for fun? Just sit outside the hive room and cut off expansion for laughs. Let's find out how "useless" jetpacks and shotguns are if the aliens can't get any res.
I have been subjected to months of beta gameplay where SG AND JP rushes reigned supreme.
This is not something new and was complained about back then..nothing has changed to address this.
New features (ie exo's) has meant this is less common as people wanted to exo more than win.
Good marines know to take out crags before hive (not exactly tough) so 3 crags are not an issue.
Fades die from 2 SG's....so having multiple SG's in a hive room is close to a death warrant for that fade unless he spends most time hiding/healing.
Lerks die to just 1 shot of a SG...so your two best defenders can take more than 1 shot or 2 before they die and are GONE.
This JP SG issue has been talked about for a long time...notice some of the more marine biased people are even saying the cost needs to go up (JP's in particular at 10 res are too cheap).
Funny that Savant in another post was saying how you could not allow for skulks to be able to 2 shot an a0 marine...yet marines have multiple instagibs at their dispossal.
Nicely done.
You just lost your entire base to two gorges though. I guess you found out just how useless a stationery jetpack is when its main strength is mobility.
I'll give you a second change though. You can either go back and defend, or apply pressure in a hive room you don't have the DPS to clear, against aliens which are endlessly reinforced and always under massive healing affects, flying around as a glass cannon that cannot hope to survive continuous damage.
Nope in the few seconds it takes those marines to unload and kill the hive the comm can still beacon you back to defend that base...
If fades, lerks and onos are being dispatched with the ease you seem to think they are in their hive room, then they would be at least twice as easy to kill anywhere else on the map. If this was indeed true, then rushing shotguns and jetpacks would surely be the dominant strategy for marines in competitive play.
In fact I think I recall seeing this strategy used quite often a few weeks ago. You know, back when marines lost constantly and fades completely dominated marines, jetpack or not. Nothing has changed with respects to fade/lerk/jetpack combat since then. It didn't win games then, it isn't winning games now.
Strofix in any competitive NS2 game you have ever watched how the Marines kill a hive?
1 - Marines
2 - ARC's
So based off your logic how exactly do any Hives EVER die in any comp games where no ARC's are used?
EDIT: Please go back to jail.
We are having a discussion here, I think you need to calm down.
Marines definitely kill hives, but lets be a bit more clear. Its not simply marines, its sustained marine pressure, through constant resupply and continuous attack. This is the exact reason why jetpack marines do not kill hives.
When was the last time you saw a jetpack rush on a hive get reinforced by more jetpack marines? You don't. It doesn't happen. By the time the first jetpack marine to die gets back to the hive, the rush has either already succeeded, or it has already failed. Jetpack rushes are one hit wonders, with no sustained pressure. And if you have a phase gate outside the alien hive streaming jetpackers in constantly, then the game is already over, and it wasn't the jetpack rush that won it.
As has been said over and over again, the jetpacker's main strength is mobility. The ability to move across the map far more rapidly than a normal marine. So what good is that in 90% of hive rooms? Why would a jetpacker perform meaningfully better than a light marine with a shotgun when assaulting a hive? You think you can just have it because its an improvement, even if its not a meaningful one? If thats your attitude, in a resource based RTS game, then chances are you have already lost to a team that is correctly min maxing.
There is something, something that has no mobility. Something that has massive DPS in a very small effective area. Its called an Exo, or a hive killer. Its the smart thing to send in. Not a light marine who can hit his head on the ceiling if he wants to.
This same mobility allows him to stay out of strike range, JP's are meant to be fast and weak (where exos slow and strong)...just a shame this doesn't hold water once the marine gets a SG.
Atleast with a LMG you stand a greater chance of doing atleast 1 bite of damage...when you get 1shotted by a SG this doesn't happen.
I must assume you did not play in the beta strofix....otherwise you would recognise how OP'd SG and JP's are.
You would know that the JP allows the marine to stay out of bite range for skulks, to "kite" Onii and stay away from those pesky aliens trying to bite you.
The fact that most tech rooms are JP friendly (warehouse is a good example...but it is not alone) does not help.
JP rushes are crap in datacore but great in sub, atrium or flight.... so 3/5's of the map.
I am just happy that a lot of comms go exo and not jp's...means we have to deal with fewer JP + SG.....marines on the ground are 100 x easier to kill than a marine that a skulk cant hit without leap (or even with leap if the marines good).
Quite a typical mistake I see many people make in this game.
You think because someone is there, you must attack him. Because there is a jetpacker in the hive, I must leap at him and try bite him, even though I will probably die.
What can that jetpacker do besides kill you as a skulk?
Shoot the hive from range? 3 crags will outheal that.
Get down close and shoot the hive? Is he going to shoot the hive and you at the same time? Is the Onos going to let him do it?
In the mean time, the hydras and lerks whittle them down. And sorry, but if a Lerk is atively attacked and killed in his own hive, he is just a plain bad lerk. Its hopelessly easy to get away from a jetpacker if you aren't trying to bite the end of his shotgun.
If a group of jetpackers fly into your hive and kill every single alien and then kill every single egg, do you really think they needed the jetpackers to beat you? I think you had some team problems to begin with.
And I'm not quite sure why you keep talking about the beta. You say yourself that nothing has changed, so what has the beta got to do with it? It seems like you just like talking about the beta.
Oh, and yes, I had around 450 hours logged on October 31st.
No, I didn't play during the beta process. My experience was mostly during 237-239.
So what you're telling me is if Exos were removed from the game we'd see more marines win? What... I mean, I don't disagree (the Exos are only good for defending or when you've "skill-wise" already won. I mean, they're fun but JPs are just more effective. Perhaps Rails will turn that around.)
The issue I have is... if these JP/SGer are so good, why was the competitive scene so bad? Were the marines that played competitively just horrible players? I mean, you're making it out as if SGs are overpowered, and yet marines lost 70% of competitive games. If this weapon is so good, then good players shouldn't be losing 70% of games. Pubs were about 55:45 for aliens. If this weapon is so good, then aliens must have had an even MORE overpowered weapon/ability to compensate for this to not only overcome the SG/JP's power but BEAT it and swing the win rates over.
If NS2Stats had marines winning then I'd agree and say we take a look, but the stats aren't adding up pre-patch.
I dunno about competitive play, but this is kind of exactly what's happening right now in public matches.
Lerk killing power is sort of misrepresented in an average pub. Mechanics like poison bite/spikes are disproportionately powerful when you have a marine comm who doesn't actively support marines fighting the lerk. A group of 2 marines or more that's actively getting medpacks is pretty much untouchable by a single lerk (provided those 2 marines can shoot).
who cares about arbitrary factors like OHK?
fade can kill an AR marine and there's nothing the marine can do about it. you need 5 seconds of almost 100% accuracy to have a chance, because once you're reloading it's game over. how is that different to OHK? it's not like the marine has a chance to escape.
comparatively a skulk could ambush and kill a shotgun marine in 1-2 seconds of bite accuracy, with a small chance to escape by leaping into a vent etc.
i've already given you the answer... marines with shotgun + jetpack is either super lategame or alien team sucks, therefore if aliens were playing properly you should have onos out to counteract jetpack.
it's meant to be super hard to play no onos vs jetpack, it's exactly the reverse of no jetpack vs onos.
That and, for all intents and purposes, the shotgun is a "hard counter" to the lerks killing power. Not a hard counter to the lerk, mind you, it just makes it almost impossible to reliably kill marines, while feeling confident that you will survive for more than 10 seconds.