<!--quoteo(post=2058044:date=Jan 8 2013, 05:33 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 8 2013, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... So? You're complaining that the animation isn't 100% smooth. Yea it doesn't transition and orient accurately but it looks like most of the time it gives you a bigger target so why are you complaining that this is a boon for aliens when it's not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also another thing to mention but I don't have a video of this. If you flick 180s as an alien it will look like you are doing a slow U turn for everybody else, this makes it really easy to track skulks and especially lerks.
I'd just like to explain to all of you who don't see a problem in the video that you are bad. Not bad at NS2, bad at all fps games. Try playing any other fps game (I'm assuming you only play ns2, as several ns2 playtesters have admitted when trying another game briefly it is much more noticable as to how jittery the skulk is). I'm sure some of you can kill skulks, and I'm sure some of those skulks are not horrible at the game, but it doesn't change the fact that the skulks in these videos move badly.
The worse you are, the slower the video has to be for you to see a problem. Anyone remotely decent will be able to see a problem at full speed, the only reason we slowed the videos down was for people who aren't very good at aiming.
For the record, your ball analogy is pointless because balls don't randomly change direction mid-air or slide along walls.
If you don't see a problem in that video, try this one.
If you don't see a problem in this video, then continue to enjoy ns2 as you were.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio</a> is a video that one of the devs made yesterday, which shows the same kind of movement without animations. It looks virtually flawless, but of course those of you that don't see a problem in the first case won't notice a difference. If you can see a difference, congratulations!
If you want the reproduction steps for any of these videos, just play NS2 and watch a skulk move.
Enable hitbox wireframes and redo the video? Just because the skulk's body LOOKS like it's somewhere doesn't mean it's hitbox is going to directly correlate.
<!--quoteo(post=2058281:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:26 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 9 2013, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The models aren't jittery or "warpy" as some of you are saying. Any teleporting is a function of the editing. [...] Yea watched the video, there's no warping or jitters. [...] There's a spot where it looked like he might have teleported a little but I'm willing to bet that was either lag or editing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is no editing apart from the blatantly obvious cuts where the skulk jumps 5 meters and there was definitely no lag in any of the videos. There was also nothing wrong with any of our computers. The videos capture what the game is like 100% truthfully.
Saying the issue doesn't bother you is one thing, but you cannot possibly say there are no jittery movements, because <i>they are actually there</i> for everyone to see. Skulk animations skip <i>several inches</i> all the time, and it's made utterly clear in the 25% speed clips at the very least. The devs acknowledge this as a problem, they even did so <i>in this very thread</i>. Do you understand these <i>facts</i>?
<!--quoteo(post=2058281:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:26 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 9 2013, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you NEEDED to see proper orientation to track something, you couldn't possible be follow a rubber ball bouncing off a wall could you? But as it turns out, you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A rubber ball doesn't change direction and any "prediction" you have to make is basic physics. Try having someone else spin a rubber ball and predict where it goes. Or try predicting which direction a spinned table tennis ball will go if you didn't see your opponent hitting it. Oh, that's next to impossible and basically a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong you say? Exactly.
<!--quoteo(post=2058281:date=Jan 9 2013, 02:26 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 9 2013, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea watched the video, there's no warping or jitters. Maybe it's just your computer stuttering, but I see nothing at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2058353:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM:name=Toothy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toothy @ Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to explain to all of you who don't see a problem in the video that you are bad. Not bad at NS2, bad at all fps games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2058281:date=Jan 9 2013, 02:26 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 9 2013, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is the least annoying thing with NS2, not trying to show off but it's really not hard to see perceive direction of motion. The models aren't jittery or "warpy" as some of you are saying. Any teleporting is a function of the editing. The only actual problem is the model isn't oriented in the exact direction of travel. And honestly I don't see how that matters, it's not impossible to follow something if it's not facing the expected direction. If that was the case where your brain NEEDED to have something facing the right direction in order to tell which way it's moving, how the hell could you track a rubber ball bouncing off of a wall?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> if crosshairs helped you aim at all, how come I can still hit stuff without a crosshair ????? it's one thing to give the benefit of the doubt, and another to just blatantly ignore dev posts acknowledging an issue.
I think on top of this, a lot of the animations seem incredibly fast. attacking an armory, for example, makes it retract the arms at almost insect-like speeds, it looks very unnatural. a lot of the pain animations for the aliens just seem very sped up as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2058073:date=Jan 8 2013, 05:29 PM:name=halfofaheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (halfofaheaven @ Jan 8 2013, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't watch the videos, but you're saying I'm "wrong"? The videos are about ridiculously twitchy skulk animations that sometimes literally make the skulk teleport a few inches. I know for a fact some people are playing the game less or not at all because it's next to impossible for them to have a proper FPS experience. And I'm talking about former top level NS1 players. The developers have acknowledged this as an issue, it's just that they're pretty much ignoring it and have been doing so for ages.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would I need to watch the videos when you aren't bringing anything new to the table? This has all been discussed here before. It isn't game breaking. I can shoot skulks. I see many others who have no problem hitting them as they jump around. It seems to me ouke you just need to find an excuse for poor aim...
Anyways, the developers are working on it. Maybe it is time to stop being such a drama queen?
While I would love for the animations to be perfect, I don't agree with those that think you need stuff to face the direction it is moving. If you can't follow movement without these avatars facing the way they are going, what happens when people use strafe keys in any games you play? Maybe this is why I don't see this as a game breaking problem. I have never relied on the direction something is facing in order to track its movement. That doesn't work in most games.
Yeaaaa not really worth commenting on how people can say thats a non-issue... The hit detection is soley based on the model, so those twiches also directly relate to your bullets connecting, ontop of completely wrecking the tracing of a good player.
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.
<!--quoteo(post=2058415:date=Jan 9 2013, 10:11 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 9 2013, 10:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeaaaa not really worth commenting on how people can say thats a non-issue... The hit detection is soley based on the model, so those twiches also directly relate to your bullets connecting, ontop of completely wrecking the tracing of a good player.
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you provide evidence that stuff is moving a different direction than you see them move? The only issue I see is them facing a different direction as they move, but they are still moving in the same direction that their computer shows them moving.
People strafe in games without forward strafe jumping. Marines strafe jump from standing still. How are you able to track them when they don't face where they are going? How do you track guys in games like CS? People strafe all over in that game, and do it in unpredictable ways. It sounds to me like you are bad at fps games if you need stuff to face the direction it is going.
This really isn't that big of a deal for marines. Where I have problems with this is on aliens. My entire strategy with two of the alien classes is to stay behind the marine. It seems like they are facing the other way sometimes when I get shot. This is a much bigger deal than tracking where things are moving to. I will add that I haven't payed enough attention to figure out if this problem is from animations, lag, or fps drops though.
<!--quoteo(post=2058426:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:28 AM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Jan 9 2013, 11:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you provide evidence that stuff is moving a different direction than you see them move? The only issue I see is them facing a different direction as they move, but they are still moving in the same direction that their computer shows them moving.
People strafe in games without forward strafe jumping. Marines strafe jump from standing still. How are you able to track them when they don't face where they are going? How do you track guys in games like CS? People strafe all over in that game, and do it in unpredictable ways. It sounds to me like you are bad at fps games if you need stuff to face the direction it is going.
This really isn't that big of a deal for marines. Where I have problems with this is on aliens. My entire strategy with two of the alien classes is to stay behind the marine. It seems like they are facing the other way sometimes when I get shot. This is a much bigger deal than tracking where things are moving to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2058415:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:11 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 9 2013, 11:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeaaaa not really worth commenting on how people can say thats a non-issue... The hit detection is soley based on the model, so those twiches also directly relate to your bullets connecting, ontop of completely wrecking the tracing of a good player.
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is.. this can't really be abused.. The skulks are bound to be hit if you're just firing into their mass.. and the same goes for attacking marines. Sure some of the animation blends are jerky, but unless you analysed all the animation blending, how are you going to really use it to your advantage unless there was some VERY extreme warping? Don't get me wrong, the one warp causes the skulks entire model to be 50% displaced .. but if you think about firing into the center mass:
( ) ( ) ---< Shoot here ( )
( ) ( ) < Some shots land here one frame ( ) ---< Shots land here in some others, then you should re-aim to the center.
So in the end if you're tracking the skulk properly there's no real problem the way it's done. After all, there's no head hitbox anyways.. so the goal is to try getting the most hits on the target, which involves more target tracking than actual aiming for critical locations.
<!--quoteo(post=2058464:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:23 AM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jan 9 2013, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is.. this can't really be abused.. The skulks are bound to be hit if you're just firing into their mass.. and the same goes for attacking marines. Sure some of the animation blends are jerky, but unless you analysed all the animation blending, how are you going to really use it to your advantage unless there was some VERY extreme warping? Don't get me wrong, the one warp causes the skulks entire model to be 50% displaced .. but if you think about firing into the center mass:
( ) ( ) ---< Shoot here ( )
( ) ( ) < Some shots land here one frame ( ) ---< Shots land here in some others, then you should re-aim to the center.
So in the end if you're tracking the skulk properly there's no real problem the way it's done. After all, there's no head hitbox anyways.. so the goal is to try getting the most hits on the target, which involves more target tracking than actual aiming for critical locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> apparently we are bad.
The direction the model is facing in relation to the direction the character is moving has no bearing on how easily you can hit or not hit a skulk.
What really matters for hitting a target is being able to follow the direction the target is moving. I have no trouble following skulks in the current state.
The so called "bad players" are the ones who can't track skulks based on the direction they are moving alone and have to rely on how the model looks.
Now if you are saying the hitbox is in a different spot than the model itself, then you need to prove that.
<!--quoteo(post=2058464:date=Jan 9 2013, 01:23 PM:name=Corpsey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Corpsey @ Jan 9 2013, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing is.. this can't really be abused.. The skulks are bound to be hit if you're just firing into their mass.. and the same goes for attacking marines. Sure some of the animation blends are jerky, but unless you analysed all the animation blending, how are you going to really use it to your advantage unless there was some VERY extreme warping? Don't get me wrong, the one warp causes the skulks entire model to be 50% displaced .. but if you think about firing into the center mass:
( ) ( ) ---< Shoot here ( )
( ) ( ) < Some shots land here one frame ( ) ---< Shots land here in some others, then you should re-aim to the center.
So in the end if you're tracking the skulk properly there's no real problem the way it's done. After all, there's no head hitbox anyways.. so the goal is to try getting the most hits on the target, which involves more target tracking than actual aiming for critical locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tautology alert. "If you have perfect tracking then you have perfect tracking!"
The point is that these inconsistent skulk animations make tracking and prediction harder and more frustrating. I don't think this is a gamebreaking problem, but it's definitely a big one. It has been a problem for quite some time, though many previous issues with skulk animations were fixed.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->NO, <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->DO NOT<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> REMOVE THE BROKEN SKULK ANIMATIONS... YOU ARE REMOVING A <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->VALID<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> TACTIC OF WALL JUMP SPAZZING OUT IN THE TOP CORNERS OF ROOMS WHILST MARINES SHOOT ALL THEIR AMMO THEN DROPPING DOWN AND KILLING THEM ALL. YOU ARE <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->REMOVING<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> A <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->VALID<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro-->RELIABLE<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->I<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->N<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#800080--><span style="color:#800080"><!--/coloro-->V<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->E<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->N<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->T<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->I<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->V<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->E<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> AND <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro-->FUN<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> TACTIC FROM THE GAME!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Also it has nothing to do with things not moving the direction they are facing, that has been part of fps gaming ever since people started using strafe.
The point is that the skulk model warps. It jitters. It flips in mid-air. That is why it's hard to predict.
<!--quoteo(post=2058505:date=Jan 9 2013, 02:37 PM:name=Toothy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toothy @ Jan 9 2013, 02:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also it has nothing to do with things not moving the direction they are facing, that has been part of fps gaming ever since people started using strafe.
The point is that the skulk model warps. It jitters. It flips in mid-air. That is why it's hard to predict.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In none of the videos did the skulk models warp except for in the one where the frames were deliberately cut to make it appear that way. There is really no jittering, yes the videos showed the models changing direction, but that doesn't change the direction the skulk is moving. For any good player, they only need to keep track of the character the direction is moving and "zone out" if you will what the model is doing.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Its known. I've spent hours compiling HD videos 1/3 the speed demonstrating every issue i could find. There's currently a bug thats been rejected twice in our system that is labeled specifically "Skulk Jump & land animation issue" which was only one of four videos of bugs i reported before the game launched.
There's even a huge compiled google doc of all the animations issues for every single model, with descriptions and videos, for UWE's animation , Colin, to work on. So yea.. its well known and being worked on.
<!--quoteo(post=2058505:date=Jan 9 2013, 07:37 PM:name=Toothy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toothy @ Jan 9 2013, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point is that the skulk model warps. It jitters. It flips in mid-air. That is why it's hard to predict.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And again, for everyone raging back and forth in here, what Toothy mentioned is what is being looked into, and what we are going to attempt to smooth out. So, there's really no point in arguing if this is a problem or not in the game, we see it as something we'd like to fix, or at least improve upon, and will do so along with all the other million things we are working on.
<!--quoteo(post=2058507:date=Jan 9 2013, 07:42 PM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 9 2013, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In none of the videos did the skulk models warp except for in the one where the frames were deliberately cut to make it appear that way. There is really no jittering, yes the videos showed the models changing direction, but that doesn't change the direction the skulk is moving. For any good player, they only need to keep track of the character the direction is moving and "zone out" if you will what the model is doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're wrong. Even people that I have linked the video to who do not play NS2 can see the warping. The warping used to be a LOT worse until Matso fixed it just before the game was released. I still have the videos of the skulks pre-patch. Guess who provided the evidence that prompted him to do that?
If you can't see the warping, try playing a different game and see how smooth it is.
<!--quoteo(post=2058507:date=Jan 9 2013, 02:42 PM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 9 2013, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In none of the videos did the skulk models warp except for in the one where the frames were deliberately cut to make it appear that way. There is really no jittering, yes the videos showed the models changing direction, but that doesn't change the direction the skulk is moving. For any good player, they only need to keep track of the character the direction is moving and "zone out" if you will what the model is doing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
?????
1/4 speed from here on: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s</a>
You'll notice even in the first two rounds of him jumping, the model is facing straight into the wall for a solid 2 or 3 jumps while he's obviously moving away from the camera. This isn't the skulk strafing.
Right at the 2:48 or 2:49 mark you can see a clear instance of the animations being wonky. Note that it does this frequently when the skulk is wall jumping, this is just the clearest example because it is such a severe change. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now look at 2:53 - 2:56. Watch the yellow outline of the skulk in the back. Do you see him pancake his model down rapidly? You can repeatedly see this movement were the body seems to collapse toward the feet and spring back up in a fraction of a second. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s</a>
Here's a great example of it. Right at 3:56 you can see this body pancaking I'm talking about. It looks like warping, but really it's probably some animation (jump?) starting to play and not transitioning well from where the skulk was or what the skulk was doing. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s</a>
This is a pancake animation trifecta from 4:24 - 4:28. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s</a>
Not entirely convinced from Cory's statement that this is a top priority. We'll probably get rocket fist long before this is fixed or "improved".
I have never been able to take this game seriously with the animations the way they are. The only consolation I can find in the shockingly hard-to-track skulk is that I usually can't see it in the first place because of all the other crap I have to contend with.
wtf are you guys talking about? never had a problem with killing skulks, always had problems with killing skulks..because they arent on the map for cheap frag.. why dont u make a mod with freezed skulks, run over to their hive and kill them instead of paying a "unplayable" game.. the games good as it is now, aliens are just getting better because everyone knows now how to use all the specials... of course you can improve this animation thing but if its that important for the game u would have to lower marines damage output by 30%. by now the game works as it is
<!--quoteo(post=2058511:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:45 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jan 9 2013, 11:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And again, for everyone raging back and forth in here, what Toothy mentioned is what is being looked into, and what we are going to attempt to smooth out. So, there's really no point in arguing if this is a problem or not in the game, we see it as something we'd like to fix, or at least improve upon, and will do so along with all the other million things we are working on.
<!--quoteo(post=2058298:date=Jan 9 2013, 03:21 AM:name=PaLaGi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PaLaGi @ Jan 9 2013, 03:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And you seriously want to be a playtester?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, because I'm concerned with issues that aren't already known and are particularly game breaking.
<!--quoteo(post=2058353:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM:name=Toothy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toothy @ Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to explain to all of you who don't see a problem in the video that you are bad. Not bad at NS2, bad at all fps games. Try playing any other fps game (I'm assuming you only play ns2, as several ns2 playtesters have admitted when trying another game briefly it is much more noticable as to how jittery the skulk is). I'm sure some of you can kill skulks, and I'm sure some of those skulks are not horrible at the game, but it doesn't change the fact that the skulks in these videos move badly.
The worse you are, the slower the video has to be for you to see a problem. Anyone remotely decent will be able to see a problem at full speed, the only reason we slowed the videos down was for people who aren't very good at aiming.
For the record, your ball analogy is pointless because balls don't randomly change direction mid-air or slide along walls.
If you don't see a problem in that video, try this one.
If you don't see a problem in this video, then continue to enjoy ns2 as you were.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio</a> is a video that one of the devs made yesterday, which shows the same kind of movement without animations. It looks virtually flawless, but of course those of you that don't see a problem in the first case won't notice a difference. If you can see a difference, congratulations!
If you want the reproduction steps for any of these videos, just play NS2 and watch a skulk move.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where to start... How about I'm bad at all FPS games because I don't have a problem discerning actual motion compared to perceived motion. Well if I'm so bad why do I consistently get the top of scoreboard against all but some of the best players? I'm not playing on pubs where no one knows how to dodge, in fact most of the skulks run on the ceiling or walls like they should. Apparently I'm a super hero because if someone bounces a ball regardless of what angle or spin or whether or not I saw the initial angle I can still keep my finger pointed at it.
I guess I should put on a costume huh? It must be hard to play ping pong, or tennis, or basketball, or any other sport that requires you to follow an object that involves something that changes direction without having a perfectly visible heading. Is my sarcasm being laid on thick enough for you? Honestly I know anyone should be able to figure out how they're moving, and believe me I can see why you're getting mad. You're getting killed because you haven't practiced enough to know how to aim when things are on the ceiling, I had problems with it at first too. It is a different set of muscles you have to use after all, but it gets easier.
Now the second video does show something interesting, using my apparent super senses I can sort of see what the issues is. And that is that the model's turn speed seems to be slow. If you notice it orients to the wall very slowly after actually making contact, this could be a possible reason why the animations aren't spot on. By the same token however, speeding up the speed of turns can result in much worse look turns. Never the less I still see no jittering or warping, but that's by my definition. To me jittering means shaking sharply, and warping means the model is actually bending. The model is not bending that's for sure, and I don't see any crazy shakiness like you seem to be claiming.
I guess to sum up, either I'm bad, or you're making excuses. Considering I do quite well in most FPS games I'd say the 2nd option is truth.
<!--quoteo(post=2058356:date=Jan 9 2013, 06:02 AM:name=halfofaheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (halfofaheaven @ Jan 9 2013, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no editing apart from the blatantly obvious cuts where the skulk jumps 5 meters and there was definitely no lag in any of the videos. There was also nothing wrong with any of our computers. The videos capture what the game is like 100% truthfully.
Saying the issue doesn't bother you is one thing, but you cannot possibly say there are no jittery movements, because <i>they are actually there</i> for everyone to see. Skulk animations skip <i>several inches</i> all the time, and it's made utterly clear in the 25% speed clips at the very least. The devs acknowledge this as a problem, they even did so <i>in this very thread</i>. Do you understand these <i>facts</i>?
A rubber ball doesn't change direction and any "prediction" you have to make is basic physics. Try having someone else spin a rubber ball and predict where it goes. Or try predicting which direction a spinned table tennis ball will go if you didn't see your opponent hitting it. Oh, that's next to impossible and basically a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong you say? Exactly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No I can say I don't see them just like a bunch of other people on here have said. I will ask you to define what you mean by jittery. If you just mean that the animation isn't playing or picks up on the wrong frame yea I agree with that. But if you're talking about the model itself shaking which is my definition of jittery, then no it's not there. What they said is a known issue and is being worked on isn't "jitters" it's the orientation of the models on the walls. Yea they don't orient correctly, they aren't bending or shaking.
I never specifically said predicting where the person is going to go or where the ball would go. I said you can follow it, I'll say to you what I said to the other guy. It doesn't matter what angle the ball hits or what spin is on it, you should be able to follow it and point at it am I wrong? No.
<!--quoteo(post=2058373:date=Jan 9 2013, 06:27 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 9 2013, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if crosshairs helped you aim at all, how come I can still hit stuff without a crosshair ????? it's one thing to give the benefit of the doubt, and another to just blatantly ignore dev posts acknowledging an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not arguing at all about whether or not the models don't orient, that's obvious that they don't. You don't need to be in high speed to see that. What I'm arguing is the so called warping and jittering. That doesn't exist.
<!--quoteo(post=2058415:date=Jan 9 2013, 08:11 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 9 2013, 08:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeaaaa not really worth commenting on how people can say thats a non-issue... The hit detection is soley based on the model, so those twiches also directly relate to your bullets connecting, ontop of completely wrecking the tracing of a good player.
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Another person talking about predictions... Yea I'm not talking about predicting anything, I'm talking about reacting which is completely different. FPS's reward good twitch skills primarily, and part of that is being able to track something. Are you saying that you can't shoot something if it's strafing? Cause if you can't then you're REALLY bad. Because here's a hint, when something is strafing you usually can't tell what direction it's really moving by the way it's pointing. But hey then again maybe I'm a super hero and I just have an amazing ability to see what direction things are actually moving instead of focusing on where they're facing. Then again maybe you just get juked really easy.
1/4 speed from here on: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s</a>
You'll notice even in the first two rounds of him jumping, the model is facing straight into the wall for a solid 2 or 3 jumps while he's obviously moving away from the camera. This isn't the skulk strafing.
Right at the 2:48 or 2:49 mark you can see a clear instance of the animations being wonky. Note that it does this frequently when the skulk is wall jumping, this is just the clearest example because it is such a severe change. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now look at 2:53 - 2:56. Watch the yellow outline of the skulk in the back. Do you see him pancake his model down rapidly? You can repeatedly see this movement were the body seems to collapse toward the feet and spring back up in a fraction of a second. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s</a>
Here's a great example of it. Right at 3:56 you can see this body pancaking I'm talking about. It looks like warping, but really it's probably some animation (jump?) starting to play and not transitioning well from where the skulk was or what the skulk was doing. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s</a>
This is a pancake animation trifecta from 4:24 - 4:28. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes of course I can see the orientation being wrong and how it snapped in those 2 instances if you put it in very slow motion. But who the ###### sees in slow motion? Honestly why are you spending so much time picking apart this tiny thing that you really won't notice in game to begin with. And here's an amazing trick, draw a box around the skulk, and watch how much that box really changes. The answer is barely, it's so minor you wouldn't miss if you were on target once.
Here's is where this argument fundamentally is breaking apart. Some people are arguing that the orientation is wrong, where some people are arguing that the animations are wrong. The orientation is clearly wrong, everyone who's played the beta knows this. And that sucks, but look at triple A titles like Assassins creed, they have the same issues in many parts. Anytime you have complex movement, there will be issues, it's hard enough to get the angles of the model perfect, but rotating it in 360 degrees at any given time on any generated map is a totally different challenge. As for the animations, it's the same thing, they may start and stop or not mix properly, but that's going to happen. Accounting for every 1 of the millions of combinations is pretty damn hard to do.
My final say is this, yea the orientation and the animations may not be perfect but they're near perfect and I find that to be acceptable. As far as jittering(shaking) or warping(bending) I don't see it period.
If you are better at aiming than everyone else in NS2 how come you're not in the best clan? :(
Also, balls tend not to change direction randomly in mid-air. However, I do appreciate your posts because they will undoubtedly have undermined your playtester application sufficiently.
Comments
And you seriously want to be a playtester?
2. move around rapidly looking forward
3. skulk does 180s at the speed of light
wtf
Also another thing to mention but I don't have a video of this. If you flick 180s as an alien it will look like you are doing a slow U turn for everybody else, this makes it really easy to track skulks and especially lerks.
The worse you are, the slower the video has to be for you to see a problem. Anyone remotely decent will be able to see a problem at full speed, the only reason we slowed the videos down was for people who aren't very good at aiming.
For the record, your ball analogy is pointless because balls don't randomly change direction mid-air or slide along walls.
If you don't see a problem in that video, try this one.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HgZgfd6glBk#t=96s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Zgfd6glBk#t=96s</a>
If you don't see a problem in this video, then continue to enjoy ns2 as you were.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio</a> is a video that one of the devs made yesterday, which shows the same kind of movement without animations. It looks virtually flawless, but of course those of you that don't see a problem in the first case won't notice a difference. If you can see a difference, congratulations!
If you want the reproduction steps for any of these videos, just play NS2 and watch a skulk move.
There is no editing apart from the blatantly obvious cuts where the skulk jumps 5 meters and there was definitely no lag in any of the videos. There was also nothing wrong with any of our computers. The videos capture what the game is like 100% truthfully.
Saying the issue doesn't bother you is one thing, but you cannot possibly say there are no jittery movements, because <i>they are actually there</i> for everyone to see. Skulk animations skip <i>several inches</i> all the time, and it's made utterly clear in the 25% speed clips at the very least. The devs acknowledge this as a problem, they even did so <i>in this very thread</i>. Do you understand these <i>facts</i>?
<!--quoteo(post=2058281:date=Jan 9 2013, 11:26 AM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 9 2013, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058281"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you NEEDED to see proper orientation to track something, you couldn't possible be follow a rubber ball bouncing off a wall could you? But as it turns out, you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A rubber ball doesn't change direction and any "prediction" you have to make is basic physics. Try having someone else spin a rubber ball and predict where it goes. Or try predicting which direction a spinned table tennis ball will go if you didn't see your opponent hitting it. Oh, that's next to impossible and basically a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong you say? Exactly.
<!--quoteo(post=2058353:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM:name=Toothy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toothy @ Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to explain to all of you who don't see a problem in the video that you are bad. Not bad at NS2, bad at all fps games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Enough said I suppose.
if crosshairs helped you aim at all, how come I can still hit stuff without a crosshair ????? it's one thing to give the benefit of the doubt, and another to just blatantly ignore dev posts acknowledging an issue.
I think on top of this, a lot of the animations seem incredibly fast. attacking an armory, for example, makes it retract the arms at almost insect-like speeds, it looks very unnatural. a lot of the pain animations for the aliens just seem very sped up as well.
Why would I need to watch the videos when you aren't bringing anything new to the table? This has all been discussed here before. It isn't game breaking. I can shoot skulks. I see many others who have no problem hitting them as they jump around. It seems to me ouke you just need to find an excuse for poor aim...
Anyways, the developers are working on it. Maybe it is time to stop being such a drama queen?
While I would love for the animations to be perfect, I don't agree with those that think you need stuff to face the direction it is moving. If you can't follow movement without these avatars facing the way they are going, what happens when people use strafe keys in any games you play? Maybe this is why I don't see this as a game breaking problem. I have never relied on the direction something is facing in order to track its movement. That doesn't work in most games.
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you provide evidence that stuff is moving a different direction than you see them move? The only issue I see is them facing a different direction as they move, but they are still moving in the same direction that their computer shows them moving.
People strafe in games without forward strafe jumping. Marines strafe jump from standing still. How are you able to track them when they don't face where they are going? How do you track guys in games like CS? People strafe all over in that game,
and do it in unpredictable ways. It sounds to me like you are bad at fps games if you need stuff to face the direction it is going.
This really isn't that big of a deal for marines. Where I have problems with this is on aliens. My entire strategy with two of the alien classes is to stay behind the marine. It seems like they are facing the other way sometimes when I get shot. This is a much bigger deal than tracking where things are moving to. I will add that I haven't payed enough attention to figure out if this problem is from animations, lag, or fps drops though.
People strafe in games without forward strafe jumping. Marines strafe jump from standing still. How are you able to track them when they don't face where they are going? How do you track guys in games like CS? People strafe all over in that game,
and do it in unpredictable ways. It sounds to me like you are bad at fps games if you need stuff to face the direction it is going.
This really isn't that big of a deal for marines. Where I have problems with this is on aliens. My entire strategy with two of the alien classes is to stay behind the marine. It seems like they are facing the other way sometimes when I get shot. This is a much bigger deal than tracking where things are moving to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol...
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The thing is.. this can't really be abused.. The skulks are bound to be hit if you're just firing into their mass.. and the same goes for attacking marines. Sure some of the animation blends are jerky, but unless you analysed all the animation blending, how are you going to really use it to your advantage unless there was some VERY extreme warping? Don't get me wrong, the one warp causes the skulks entire model to be 50% displaced .. but if you think about firing into the center mass:
( )
( ) ---< Shoot here
( )
( )
( ) < Some shots land here one frame
( ) ---< Shots land here in some others, then you should re-aim to the center.
So in the end if you're tracking the skulk properly there's no real problem the way it's done. After all, there's no head hitbox anyways.. so the goal is to try getting the most hits on the target, which involves more target tracking than actual aiming for critical locations.
( )
( ) ---< Shoot here
( )
( )
( ) < Some shots land here one frame
( ) ---< Shots land here in some others, then you should re-aim to the center.
So in the end if you're tracking the skulk properly there's no real problem the way it's done. After all, there's no head hitbox anyways.. so the goal is to try getting the most hits on the target, which involves more target tracking than actual aiming for critical locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
apparently we are bad.
If you cannot see or understand the problem there is little I can do to help you see/realize it, maybe get some glasses?
You are more then welcome to continue denying a problem that the developers have admitted they are already working on.
What really matters for hitting a target is being able to follow the direction the target is moving. I have no trouble following skulks in the current state.
The so called "bad players" are the ones who can't track skulks based on the direction they are moving alone and have to rely on how the model looks.
Now if you are saying the hitbox is in a different spot than the model itself, then you need to prove that.
( )
( ) ---< Shoot here
( )
( )
( ) < Some shots land here one frame
( ) ---< Shots land here in some others, then you should re-aim to the center.
So in the end if you're tracking the skulk properly there's no real problem the way it's done. After all, there's no head hitbox anyways.. so the goal is to try getting the most hits on the target, which involves more target tracking than actual aiming for critical locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tautology alert. "If you have perfect tracking then you have perfect tracking!"
The point is that these inconsistent skulk animations make tracking and prediction harder and more frustrating. I don't think this is a gamebreaking problem, but it's definitely a big one. It has been a problem for quite some time, though many previous issues with skulk animations were fixed.
YOU ARE REMOVING A <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->VALID<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> TACTIC OF WALL JUMP SPAZZING OUT IN THE TOP CORNERS OF ROOMS WHILST MARINES SHOOT ALL THEIR AMMO THEN DROPPING DOWN AND KILLING THEM ALL.
YOU ARE <!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->REMOVING<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> A <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->VALID<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, <!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#0000FF--><span style="color:#0000FF"><!--/coloro-->RELIABLE<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->, <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->I<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->N<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#800080--><span style="color:#800080"><!--/coloro-->V<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->E<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->N<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro-->T<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->I<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->V<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#008000--><span style="color:#008000"><!--/coloro-->E<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> AND <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#FFFFFF--><span style="color:#FFFFFF"><!--/coloro-->FUN<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> TACTIC FROM THE GAME!<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
/sarcasm off.
The point is that the skulk model warps. It jitters. It flips in mid-air. That is why it's hard to predict.
The point is that the skulk model warps. It jitters. It flips in mid-air. That is why it's hard to predict.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In none of the videos did the skulk models warp except for in the one where the frames were deliberately cut to make it appear that way. There is really no jittering, yes the videos showed the models changing direction, but that doesn't change the direction the skulk is moving. For any good player, they only need to keep track of the character the direction is moving and "zone out" if you will what the model is doing.
I've spent hours compiling HD videos 1/3 the speed demonstrating every issue i could find. There's currently a bug thats been rejected twice in our system that is labeled specifically "Skulk Jump & land animation issue" which was only one of four videos of bugs i reported before the game launched.
There's even a huge compiled google doc of all the animations issues for every single model, with descriptions and videos, for UWE's animation , Colin, to work on.
So yea.. its well known and being worked on.
And again, for everyone raging back and forth in here, what Toothy mentioned is what is being looked into, and what we are going to attempt to smooth out. So, there's really no point in arguing if this is a problem or not in the game, we see it as something we'd like to fix, or at least improve upon, and will do so along with all the other million things we are working on.
Thanks.
--Cory
You're wrong.
Even people that I have linked the video to who do not play NS2 can see the warping. The warping used to be a LOT worse until Matso fixed it just before the game was released. I still have the videos of the skulks pre-patch. Guess who provided the evidence that prompted him to do that?
If you can't see the warping, try playing a different game and see how smooth it is.
?????
1/4 speed from here on:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s</a>
You'll notice even in the first two rounds of him jumping, the model is facing straight into the wall for a solid 2 or 3 jumps while he's obviously moving away from the camera. This isn't the skulk strafing.
Right at the 2:48 or 2:49 mark you can see a clear instance of the animations being wonky. Note that it does this frequently when the skulk is wall jumping, this is just the clearest example because it is such a severe change.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now look at 2:53 - 2:56. Watch the yellow outline of the skulk in the back. Do you see him pancake his model down rapidly? You can repeatedly see this movement were the body seems to collapse toward the feet and spring back up in a fraction of a second.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s</a>
Here's a great example of it. Right at 3:56 you can see this body pancaking I'm talking about. It looks like warping, but really it's probably some animation (jump?) starting to play and not transitioning well from where the skulk was or what the skulk was doing.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s</a>
This is a pancake animation trifecta from 4:24 - 4:28.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s</a>
I have never been able to take this game seriously with the animations the way they are. The only consolation I can find in the shockingly hard-to-track skulk is that I usually can't see it in the first place because of all the other crap I have to contend with.
the games good as it is now, aliens are just getting better because everyone knows now how to use all the specials... of course you can improve this animation thing but if its that important for the game u would have to lower marines damage output by 30%. by now the game works as it is
Thanks.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's good to hear.
Yes, because I'm concerned with issues that aren't already known and are particularly game breaking.
<!--quoteo(post=2058353:date=Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM:name=Toothy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toothy @ Jan 9 2013, 05:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058353"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd just like to explain to all of you who don't see a problem in the video that you are bad. Not bad at NS2, bad at all fps games. Try playing any other fps game (I'm assuming you only play ns2, as several ns2 playtesters have admitted when trying another game briefly it is much more noticable as to how jittery the skulk is). I'm sure some of you can kill skulks, and I'm sure some of those skulks are not horrible at the game, but it doesn't change the fact that the skulks in these videos move badly.
The worse you are, the slower the video has to be for you to see a problem. Anyone remotely decent will be able to see a problem at full speed, the only reason we slowed the videos down was for people who aren't very good at aiming.
For the record, your ball analogy is pointless because balls don't randomly change direction mid-air or slide along walls.
If you don't see a problem in that video, try this one.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HgZgfd6glBk#t=96s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...Zgfd6glBk#t=96s</a>
If you don't see a problem in this video, then continue to enjoy ns2 as you were.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLAjyGyLio</a> is a video that one of the devs made yesterday, which shows the same kind of movement without animations. It looks virtually flawless, but of course those of you that don't see a problem in the first case won't notice a difference. If you can see a difference, congratulations!
If you want the reproduction steps for any of these videos, just play NS2 and watch a skulk move.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where to start... How about I'm bad at all FPS games because I don't have a problem discerning actual motion compared to perceived motion. Well if I'm so bad why do I consistently get the top of scoreboard against all but some of the best players? I'm not playing on pubs where no one knows how to dodge, in fact most of the skulks run on the ceiling or walls like they should. Apparently I'm a super hero because if someone bounces a ball regardless of what angle or spin or whether or not I saw the initial angle I can still keep my finger pointed at it.
I guess I should put on a costume huh? It must be hard to play ping pong, or tennis, or basketball, or any other sport that requires you to follow an object that involves something that changes direction without having a perfectly visible heading. Is my sarcasm being laid on thick enough for you? Honestly I know anyone should be able to figure out how they're moving, and believe me I can see why you're getting mad. You're getting killed because you haven't practiced enough to know how to aim when things are on the ceiling, I had problems with it at first too. It is a different set of muscles you have to use after all, but it gets easier.
Now the second video does show something interesting, using my apparent super senses I can sort of see what the issues is. And that is that the model's turn speed seems to be slow. If you notice it orients to the wall very slowly after actually making contact, this could be a possible reason why the animations aren't spot on. By the same token however, speeding up the speed of turns can result in much worse look turns. Never the less I still see no jittering or warping, but that's by my definition. To me jittering means shaking sharply, and warping means the model is actually bending. The model is not bending that's for sure, and I don't see any crazy shakiness like you seem to be claiming.
I guess to sum up, either I'm bad, or you're making excuses. Considering I do quite well in most FPS games I'd say the 2nd option is truth.
<!--quoteo(post=2058356:date=Jan 9 2013, 06:02 AM:name=halfofaheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (halfofaheaven @ Jan 9 2013, 06:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no editing apart from the blatantly obvious cuts where the skulk jumps 5 meters and there was definitely no lag in any of the videos. There was also nothing wrong with any of our computers. The videos capture what the game is like 100% truthfully.
Saying the issue doesn't bother you is one thing, but you cannot possibly say there are no jittery movements, because <i>they are actually there</i> for everyone to see. Skulk animations skip <i>several inches</i> all the time, and it's made utterly clear in the 25% speed clips at the very least. The devs acknowledge this as a problem, they even did so <i>in this very thread</i>. Do you understand these <i>facts</i>?
A rubber ball doesn't change direction and any "prediction" you have to make is basic physics. Try having someone else spin a rubber ball and predict where it goes. Or try predicting which direction a spinned table tennis ball will go if you didn't see your opponent hitting it. Oh, that's next to impossible and basically a 50/50 chance of being right or wrong you say? Exactly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I can say I don't see them just like a bunch of other people on here have said. I will ask you to define what you mean by jittery. If you just mean that the animation isn't playing or picks up on the wrong frame yea I agree with that. But if you're talking about the model itself shaking which is my definition of jittery, then no it's not there. What they said is a known issue and is being worked on isn't "jitters" it's the orientation of the models on the walls. Yea they don't orient correctly, they aren't bending or shaking.
I never specifically said predicting where the person is going to go or where the ball would go. I said you can follow it, I'll say to you what I said to the other guy. It doesn't matter what angle the ball hits or what spin is on it, you should be able to follow it and point at it am I wrong? No.
<!--quoteo(post=2058373:date=Jan 9 2013, 06:27 AM:name=Gliss)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gliss @ Jan 9 2013, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if crosshairs helped you aim at all, how come I can still hit stuff without a crosshair ????? it's one thing to give the benefit of the doubt, and another to just blatantly ignore dev posts acknowledging an issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not arguing at all about whether or not the models don't orient, that's obvious that they don't. You don't need to be in high speed to see that. What I'm arguing is the so called warping and jittering. That doesn't exist.
<!--quoteo(post=2058415:date=Jan 9 2013, 08:11 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jan 9 2013, 08:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeaaaa not really worth commenting on how people can say thats a non-issue... The hit detection is soley based on the model, so those twiches also directly relate to your bullets connecting, ontop of completely wrecking the tracing of a good player.
Also, having the skulk facing the direction its moving is key in improving prediction, you could trace a ball bouncing off of a wall easily because if your tracing it on its incoming trajectory, its fairly easy to instantly predict the angle of reflection, and from there continue tracing without missing. Far too often I find skulks that are moving backwards and sideways to me still managing to move forward and land bites - proper animations there also allow for more intelligent dodging.
if you dont rely on the direction something is moving to track it... I dont even know what to say to that.. Do you telepathically sense the real buttons the player is pressing to know where their going next? Tracing a players strafing movements are inherient unpredictable, but can be accounted for quite easily because its always at specific angles to their forward movement angle... It sounds like most likely your just guessing and hopping they move into your bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another person talking about predictions... Yea I'm not talking about predicting anything, I'm talking about reacting which is completely different. FPS's reward good twitch skills primarily, and part of that is being able to track something. Are you saying that you can't shoot something if it's strafing? Cause if you can't then you're REALLY bad. Because here's a hint, when something is strafing you usually can't tell what direction it's really moving by the way it's pointing. But hey then again maybe I'm a super hero and I just have an amazing ability to see what direction things are actually moving instead of focusing on where they're facing. Then again maybe you just get juked really easy.
<!--quoteo(post=2058520:date=Jan 9 2013, 12:04 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 9 2013, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->?????
1/4 speed from here on:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m03s</a>
You'll notice even in the first two rounds of him jumping, the model is facing straight into the wall for a solid 2 or 3 jumps while he's obviously moving away from the camera. This isn't the skulk strafing.
Right at the 2:48 or 2:49 mark you can see a clear instance of the animations being wonky. Note that it does this frequently when the skulk is wall jumping, this is just the clearest example because it is such a severe change.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m45s</a>
Now look at 2:53 - 2:56. Watch the yellow outline of the skulk in the back. Do you see him pancake his model down rapidly? You can repeatedly see this movement were the body seems to collapse toward the feet and spring back up in a fraction of a second.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=2m50s</a>
Here's a great example of it. Right at 3:56 you can see this body pancaking I'm talking about. It looks like warping, but really it's probably some animation (jump?) starting to play and not transitioning well from where the skulk was or what the skulk was doing.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=3m54s</a>
This is a pancake animation trifecta from 4:24 - 4:28.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtZkbPlZSAc&t=4m23s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes of course I can see the orientation being wrong and how it snapped in those 2 instances if you put it in very slow motion. But who the ###### sees in slow motion? Honestly why are you spending so much time picking apart this tiny thing that you really won't notice in game to begin with. And here's an amazing trick, draw a box around the skulk, and watch how much that box really changes. The answer is barely, it's so minor you wouldn't miss if you were on target once.
Here's is where this argument fundamentally is breaking apart. Some people are arguing that the orientation is wrong, where some people are arguing that the animations are wrong. The orientation is clearly wrong, everyone who's played the beta knows this. And that sucks, but look at triple A titles like Assassins creed, they have the same issues in many parts. Anytime you have complex movement, there will be issues, it's hard enough to get the angles of the model perfect, but rotating it in 360 degrees at any given time on any generated map is a totally different challenge. As for the animations, it's the same thing, they may start and stop or not mix properly, but that's going to happen. Accounting for every 1 of the millions of combinations is pretty damn hard to do.
My final say is this, yea the orientation and the animations may not be perfect but they're near perfect and I find that to be acceptable. As far as jittering(shaking) or warping(bending) I don't see it period.
Also, balls tend not to change direction randomly in mid-air. However, I do appreciate your posts because they will undoubtedly have undermined your playtester application sufficiently.