I don't really find onoses fun to play as or against. The only reason they kind of worked in NS1, was because despite being stronger than a marine, it was quite rare to get enough onoses to make it a problem, as obviously if you have 5 onoses vs 5 marines the onoses should win. However, NS2 allows aliens to all go onos at the same time, more or less, or at least a lot of them. They're much easier to hit marines with, despite being very easy to hit with in NS1. They have more hitpoints, and charge is not 3 hive. Jetpack hmgs do not exist, and jetpacks not responsive or as fast to accelerate compared to NS1. The NS2 onos is more easy to play then anything in NS1 or NS2, as the only real counter is a damage check, not any form of skill or strategy.
<!--quoteo(post=2051467:date=Dec 26 2012, 09:50 PM:name=Toothy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Toothy @ Dec 26 2012, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051467"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really find onoses fun to play as or against. The only reason they kind of worked in NS1, was because despite being stronger than a marine, it was quite rare to get enough onoses to make it a problem, as obviously if you have 5 onoses vs 5 marines the onoses should win. However, NS2 allows aliens to all go onos at the same time, more or less, or at least a lot of them. They're much easier to hit marines with, despite being very easy to hit with in NS1. They have more hitpoints, and charge is not 3 hive. Jetpack hmgs do not exist, and jetpacks not responsive or as fast to accelerate compared to NS1. The NS2 onos is more easy to play then anything in NS1 or NS2, as the only real counter is a damage check, not any form of skill or strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
U are assuming the alien team has managed to survive without any1 using res to the point they can all onos, if this is the case teams are massively unbalanced and they wouldnt even need onoses to win.
Often tho alien team tries to do something like that because fade is way too weak. Its much slower and squishier than in NS1. NS2 lacks focus which made fade something to fear. Even sentry turrets kill fade in few seconds in NS2 LOL. Fade also lacks the self healing ability from NS1 so they cant go harass behind the lines effectively. Now all the games seem to be a race against time with aliens, if they survive with at least 2 hives to the point many can onos they have a chance, otherwise they are doomed almost certainly.
NS2 Lerk spores being a late game 2 hive and researched skill also sucks. Aliens are too low on effective weapons against marines till the onoses go up.
<!--quoteo(post=2051497:date=Dec 26 2012, 12:43 PM:name=pendelum5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pendelum5 @ Dec 26 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If marines let aliens get 3+ onos, it's because they didn't harass the harvesters and 3rd hive earlier in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't change the fact that Marines are on a timer from the moment the game starts. The moment that timer hits 0, they basically lose automatically. At best they can somewhat delay the timer by being extremely aggressive at damaging the Alien economy, but the timer continues to tick down regardless. If they don't win before the Oni hit the field, that's game. Aliens have no such timer, and asymmetrical gameplay has nothing to do with it. It's unreasonable and unfun/unfair to the Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2051503:date=Dec 26 2012, 03:11 PM:name=Kopikat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kopikat @ Dec 26 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't change the fact that Marines are on a timer from the moment the game starts. The moment that timer hits 0, they basically lose automatically. At best they can somewhat delay the timer by being extremely aggressive at damaging the Alien economy, but the timer continues to tick down regardless. If they don't win before the Oni hit the field, that's game. Aliens have no such timer, and asymmetrical gameplay has nothing to do with it. It's unreasonable and unfun/unfair to the Marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I definitely wouldn't say that Onos are the end-all-be-all game ender that you are making them out to be. I've seen many an onos slain by the focus fire of 2-3 marines.
It seems more like the problem is marines letting aliens get (and stay on) 3 hives, research stomp, let aliens build up to 75 pres and having 3-4 go onos. If aliens are able to do all this, then the marines weren't aggressive enough and don't deserve to win.
1. Lifeform mix is certainly viable and better since umbra is powerful, spores are powerful, bilebomb is powerful and fades are an excellent counter to jetpacks. Onos are pretty poor at killing actual marines when compared to the fade. They are a good bullet sponge and structure killer.
2. As with entire team going exosuit, entire team going onos is a risk. You hope you win the rush, otherwise you lose the game. Aliens have no chance of stopping an exosuit team except by killing the enemy base first, same with marines fighting an entire team of onos. However unlock exosuits, there are only so many onos that can dogpile on a structure or power node.
3. Dual exo vs onos = dead onos. Same pres investment. Arguably a larger investment for the alien, since aliens are supposed to hold less res towers than marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2051254:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:48 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 26 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the onos, it's not as if the issue is that is has too much hitpoints or something like that specifically. However, marines need some more options in order to address the arrival of the onos. Right now it basically counters everything marines have, and marines have no counter to onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if trolling or just stupid.
The only thing I would argue is that the onos is pretty easy to play compared to other lifeforms. Its arguably the easiest thing to do in game. Right now only skill in an onos is knowing when to retreat, timing stomp, and being able to charge down a jetpacker. It needs more of a skill ceiling.
<!--quoteo(post=2051517:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People need to stop creating these stupid topics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont see why we would need a NS2 forum if we are not allowed to talk about the game. So my stupid topic is valid.
<!--quoteo(post=2051517:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Lifeform mix is certainly viable and better since umbra is powerful, spores are powerful, bilebomb is powerful and fades are an excellent counter to jetpacks. Onos are pretty poor at killing actual marines when compared to the fade. They are a good bullet sponge and structure killer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is viable, but you can succeed without fades and ubmbra pretty easy because damaged Onos can retreat to crack positions while others attack, If marines chase them they will most likely die or lose their base to other oni. If Onos players dont go all in, and if theyre not stupid they wont, marine base will fall even easier then with a proper mix. No, Fades need way to many swips to take out A3 marines. Onos kill marines off faster due to stomp and greater damage output. Only disadvantage is that its easy to kite an Onos as a jetpacker.
<!--quoteo(post=2051517:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. As with entire team going exosuit, entire team going onos is a risk. You hope you win the rush, otherwise you lose the game. Aliens have no chance of stopping an exosuit team except by killing the enemy base first, same with marines fighting an entire team of onos. However unlock exosuits, there are only so many onos that can dogpile on a structure or power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope you dont take any risk if your entire team go Onos thats exactly the problem. Onos combine all strengths of other lifeforms. Exopush is easy to stop, lets say your entire team (6 people) are oni. If marines push your hive they can afford max 2 Exos, rest have to support. You let 3 Oni at your hive, while 3 others attack all marine bases at the same time. Marine commander will have beacon, your oni run away when they hear the sound and you have got 2 unsupported exos as meal for the Oni defending mainbase. Now lets say this Exos arent supported and entire marine team is an Exo. You dont even need to kill them. Your Oni will destroy all enemy bases even faster then Exos reach your second hive. Also the unsupported exo train can easily be sniped by few gorges and lose effectivness due to blocking each others bullets.
<!--quoteo(post=2051517:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Dual exo vs onos = dead onos. Same pres investment. Arguably a larger investment for the alien, since aliens are supposed to hold less res towers than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats just wrong. Dualexo ######s up Onos if the Onos charge at him and the dualexo is able to get alot of damage from distance. If the Onos player is smart, he will wait untill he can appear infront of the exosuit. If that happens the Onos will kill the Exo faster. Ofc were talking about a lone Exo without support. No, dual Exo is a larger investment because the Marine com cant drop them, so you need to wait for players getting enough pres. While 3 Hive alien com can just spam onos eggs.
Another problem with this game is that there is no punishment for having 3+ players on your team whoring res all game for onos. In NS1 your team would be screwed due to lack of fades/lerks. NS2 the aliens can thrive and even win the game on skulks alone. Just another example of how aliens are magnitudes easier and more forgiving than marines.
Onos feel out of place enough as is in smaller games but at least they're manageable. A big part of the problem is obviously server size, anytime I end up in a 20+ player server it usually turns out something like this:
I would like to see charge be a third hive ability at least. Onos with celerity/charge should not have a movement advantage against a sg/jper. Would add some nice balance to that midgame/lategame tranisition where marines are trying to hold 3 techpoints in a 5-techpoint map.
It has been said a number of times already but I feel it bears repeating. Because of the Onos' massive damage sponging ability, the fact that it outmaneuvers all but jetpacked marines, it is a life form associated with very little risk.
Other life forms that are more fragile carry much greater risks of death due to their low tolerance for damage, and thus players naturally see where the best investment is. Save for an onos rather than risking pres for the other life forms.
It should be clear why marines should not all buy grenade launchers. It should be clear why marines should not all buy flame throwers. A marine team full of exosuits is a joke. An alien team full of oni simply soak too much damage to be killed without taking massive losses.
There should be advantages and disadvantages to each branch of the tech tree. I cannot see a disadvantage for selecting an onos other than that it is expensive. Compared to everything else in this game this is very out of place. I can think of advantages and disadvantages for everything in NS2 except the onos and the jetpack. This is a problem!
<b>Skulk: </b>Fast! <u>weak.</u> Free. <b>Gorge:</b> <u>Slow! Squishy.</u> Walls! Hydras! Bile bomb WRECKS structures! Support healing! Cheap. <b>Lerk:</b> Fast! weak. <u>doesn't damage structures well/ low directed dps.</u> Ranged! Umbra! AOE health damage! Moderate expense. <b>Fade:</b> Fast! <u>doesn't damage structures well.</u> Teleports! More dps than skulk! <u>Clumsy when attacking</u> Expensive. <b>Onos:</b> Fast! Maneuverable! Massive HP! High damage vs units. High damage vs structures! Stuns ground units! Very expensive.
<b>Rifle:</b> Great range. High rate of fire. Melee. <u>low damage per hit.</u> Free. <b>Shotgun:</b> <u>Poor range. Bullet grouping instead of pinpoint damage. Low rate of fire.</u> HUGE damage potential with proximity. Moderately expensive. <b>Flame thrower: </b>Saps energy, does high damage on sustained fire, does damage over time, clears lerk mists, <u>kills prohibitively slowly when alone</u>. Moderately expensive. <b>Grenade launcher:</b> Huge damage per hit. Area effect. Great against buildings and life forms. <u>huge damage delay</u>. Viable away from combat. <u>Countered by whips</u>. Expensive. <b>Welder:</b> Support weapon, supports armored units, supports friendly structures. <u>Little to no combat damage potential.</u> Cheap <b>Exosuit:</b> High damage per second, infinite ammo, r<u>equires heat management during sustained fire, very slow, cannot heal at armory, cannot teleport, cannot beacon</u>. Very expensive. <b>Jetpacks:</b> Increase mobility, allow flight, <u>requires two tech points to be researched and purchased.</u> cheap.
<!--quoteo(post=2051425:date=Dec 26 2012, 12:26 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Dec 26 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But why not, both cost 75 res. If EXOs are weaker then Onos why not make them cost 65 instead?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Keep in mind that EXOS are ranged so they can attack at <i>any</i> distance, while an onos has to get in your face to do any damage at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2051386:date=Dec 27 2012, 02:42 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 27 2012, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos isnt too strong, other lifeforms are too weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, i havent played in a while coz i got bored of playing skulk then evolving to onos. waste of res on anything else.
And if you come up against an onos or two, yell at your marines to group up and chase and focus fire it, it will die in seconds.
an onos 1v1 a 75 res exo is pretty balanced, the only way the onos will have a good chance of winning is if he can close the gap on the exo and get up its grill.
An interesting thought to me is that the problem seems to lie within the ease of resource collection. Players can easily turtle and not have to worry much because in a few minutes they can go Onos, and then stomp the ###### out of ######. An intriguing change for me would be that players gain res per kill(assist)/structure kill(assist)/building. That way you would have less players being able to turtle and then all of a sudden LOLNOS, they would actually have to show skill and contribute to the team in some way to progress through lifeforms. Same goes for marines, though one team may need a slight res tick to even the playing field a bit, this would clearly need testing. I for one would like to see something similar to this implemented. It would make for a more interesting competitive game as well, imo. You would see less turtling aliens, and more back and forth map struggles.
It would also allow teams to more easily designate roles, such as support, damage dealer, tank, structure scout, whatever you like. It would open up for progression within these roles as opposed to being a random chaotic progression where one minute one team has nothing, and the next they have the power to wipe you off the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2051539:date=Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is viable, but you can succeed without fades and ubmbra pretty easy because damaged Onos can retreat to crack positions while others attack, If marines chase them they will most likely die or lose their base to other oni. If Onos players dont go all in, and if theyre not stupid they wont, marine base will fall even easier then with a proper mix. No, Fades need way to many swips to take out A3 marines. Onos kill marines off faster due to stomp and greater damage output. Only disadvantage is that its easy to kite an Onos as a jetpacker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fades need some work I agree. Preferablly I want focus back. However mixed teams can control the engagement far better than an all onos team. All onos team can drop the CC before marines can kill them. An all exo team can kill the hive before aliens can kill them. With umbra you force multiply the onos by halving damage. With bile you can deal same damage (more to armour, less to health), and from range, as an onos. Mixed team can clear the marine team far better than the onos team can.
<!--quoteo(post=2051539:date=Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope you dont take any risk if your entire team go Onos thats exactly the problem. Onos combine all strengths of other lifeforms. Exopush is easy to stop, lets say your entire team (6 people) are oni. If marines push your hive they can afford max 2 Exos, rest have to support. You let 3 Oni at your hive, while 3 others attack all marine bases at the same time. Marine commander will have beacon, your oni run away when they hear the sound and you have got 2 unsupported exos as meal for the Oni defending mainbase. Now lets say this Exos arent supported and entire marine team is an Exo. You dont even need to kill them. Your Oni will destroy all enemy bases even faster then Exos reach your second hive. Also the unsupported exo train can easily be sniped by few gorges and lose effectivness due to blocking each others bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As a melee unit, onos need their speed. Perhaps when they get primal scream they can be reduced in base speed to make them less mobile across the map, but without its current speed it would go back to pre-carapace buff (carapace reduced speed, so onos entered bases slowly and lost all advantage. They were useless for a while except to distract from a gorge.). I would say the only foolishness is marines all going exosuit in their base, then slowly walking half the map to the hives. Onos can be evolved to anywhere.
<!--quoteo(post=2051539:date=Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just wrong. Dualexo ######s up Onos if the Onos charge at him and the dualexo is able to get alot of damage from distance. If the Onos player is smart, he will wait untill he can appear infront of the exosuit. If that happens the Onos will kill the Exo faster. Ofc were talking about a lone Exo without support. No, dual Exo is a larger investment because the Marine com cant drop them, so you need to wait for players getting enough pres. While 3 Hive alien com can just spam onos eggs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Used to be this way. Fairly quickly after release this changed and now only really bad dual exosuits lose in a fight with an onos.
I would like the marine comm to get dual exosuit drops though.
<!--quoteo(post=2051386:date=Dec 26 2012, 12:42 PM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 26 2012, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos isnt too strong, other lifeforms are too weak. If anything needs nerf its exos. Almost all games end up with exo train faceroll marine victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. The Onos IS too strong and Fade is too weak.
1 Onos >> 1 duel exo in almost all situations. The only redeeming factor exos have is their range, but this is negated by the close quarters of map design and the extreme speed of the onos. I am also pretty sure that exos don't benefit from weapons and armor upgrades, while the onos can get the carapace upgrade.
They are also late game units, so that means there are more likely to be more then one, which increases their effectiveness exponentially, more so then 2 exos.
Exos are slow, cant beacon, cant teleport, cant self repair and such needs a support team to follow them around effectively tieing up 1 or more players per exo (x5 resource for the weld tool), who might be needed elsewhere. This makes them a pain to properly support in the field.
I feel like the onos was used to fill the "really expensive unit" slot for the aliens, then became OP to justify the high cost.
<!--quoteo(post=2052275:date=Dec 28 2012, 03:29 PM:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly @ Dec 28 2012, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1 Onos >> 1 duel exo in almost all situations. The only redeeming factor exos have is their range, but this is negated by the close quarters of map design and the extreme speed of the onos. I am also pretty sure that exos don't benefit from weapons and armor upgrades, while the onos can get the carapace upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed they are ranged which is a HUGE advantage. I was playing onos couple of days ago and was defending repair room in NS_Tram. Exos and marines keep firing from the doorway time to time to the hive, everytime i went there to "smash" some exos because onos > exo in ur opinion i had to turn halfway back so i wont die because of their insane firepower, sometimes i got in melee range to deliver one blow before i had to run again. After 5-10min stalemate hive was about to die so i had to charge in there to kill exos, but i couldnt kill any instead i got shot down in couple of seconds with carapace.
Exos do benefit from armor uprgades at least idk about weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=2052293:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:07 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 28 2012, 07:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed they are ranged which is a HUGE advantage. I was playing onos couple of days ago and was defending repair room in NS_Tram. Exos and marines keep firing from the doorway time to time to the hive, everytime i went there to "smash" some exos because onos > exo in ur opinion i had to turn halfway back so i wont die because of their insane firepower, sometimes i got in melee range to deliver one blow before i had to run again. After 5-10min stalemate hive was about to die so i had to charge in there to kill exos, but i couldnt kill any instead i got shot down in couple of seconds with carapace.
Exos do benefit from armor uprgades at least idk about weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So according to your own account: Your Onos was able to run head first into multiple EXO's fire (you spoke of EXO[s], plural) as well as their marine supporting units. Managed to hit them once, then was able to retreat back to your base, still alive.
And your arguing that EXO's are overpowered....how exactly?
It actually sounded like the EXO's where using their one advantage to full effect: Their range.
I feel alot of these arguments are based around certain events meant to highlight the pros or cons of that unit in whatever way chosen.
Generally speaking from a PUB point of view, when I play Ono and I run into an area that has 4 marines I just turn and run. I don't have the numbers to back me up, but 4 marines with LMG chew through your armour and start working on your HP instantly with just the 1st clip. All these scenarios seem to be based around the Ono just appearing unannounced and smashing an undefended location/base. Picture running into Cafe after you've been scouted coming through Bar? all it needs is 3 spread out marines in that room with w2 or w3 vs 1 Onos and the Onos will most probably die.
I reckon alot of these examples are coming from unbalanced pub matches, where the alien team was already ahead without having to worry about lerks/fades too much which let them get 3-4 onos at the same time at the 15 minute mark. Sure, the Onos will be strong then.
I think all lifeforms, like all marine research tech comes down to the teamplay involved in the game. I don't really feel certain lifeforms are overpowered against basically every other option. Overstepping or being caught out as an Onos against a few JP marines means you're dead. Just like overstepping as an exo means you die.
Someone mentioned competitive play earlier, and I've only seen the 2 hive comm Ono egg build for comp play (I haven't watched anything more recent) but it looked to me like the Ono wasn't used to end the game, it was used as a defensive unit. Trying to harass and draw marine attention. To me that doesn't seem like an OP unit. It seems like a strong unit worth respecting but not game breaking.
Personally I like to go from Skulk to Ono simply because I'm not competent with Lerk/Fade. Like someone said the skill ceiling for Ono is about where I can handle it. I've never really played NS1 so don't have background experience with the lifeforms, but I've seen good Lerk/Fades wreck PUB games.
<!--quoteo(post=2052305:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:40 AM:name=ChrisAUS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChrisAUS @ Dec 28 2012, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052305"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel alot of these arguments are based around certain events meant to highlight the pros or cons of that unit in whatever way chosen.
Generally speaking from a PUB point of view, when I play Ono and I run into an area that has 4 marines I just turn and run. I don't have the numbers to back me up, but 4 marines with LMG chew through your armour and start working on your HP instantly with just the 1st clip. All these scenarios seem to be based around the Ono just appearing unannounced and smashing an undefended location/base. Picture running into Cafe after you've been scouted coming through Bar? all it needs is 3 spread out marines in that room with w2 or w3 vs 1 Onos and the Onos will most probably die.
I reckon alot of these examples are coming from unbalanced pub matches, where the alien team was already ahead without having to worry about lerks/fades too much which let them get 3-4 onos at the same time at the 15 minute mark. Sure, the Onos will be strong then.
I think all lifeforms, like all marine research tech comes down to the teamplay involved in the game. I don't really feel certain lifeforms are overpowered against basically every other option. Overstepping or being caught out as an Onos against a few JP marines means you're dead. Just like overstepping as an exo means you die.
Someone mentioned competitive play earlier, and I've only seen the 2 hive comm Ono egg build for comp play (I haven't watched anything more recent) but it looked to me like the Ono wasn't used to end the game, it was used as a defensive unit. Trying to harass and draw marine attention. To me that doesn't seem like an OP unit. It seems like a strong unit worth respecting but not game breaking.
Personally I like to go from Skulk to Ono simply because I'm not competent with Lerk/Fade. Like someone said the skill ceiling for Ono is about where I can handle it. I've never really played NS1 so don't have background experience with the lifeforms, but I've seen good Lerk/Fades wreck PUB games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp is really good with clusters of marine units as it knocks them to the ground. It makes sense that many cheaper units would take out an Onos quickly. Onos attacks while strong, are relatively slow, and thus aren't effective against many weaker units.
You also have to remember though that by running around in there you have 4 players distracted. In many games that's half of the enemy team. Taking half the team out of the fight, even if temporarily is extremely powerful.
I think Onos needs to be toned down in all areas, as well as made cheaper to compensate. Stop them from being end game super weapons, but still strong enough to lead the charge for a well balanced alien team.
I don't know about whether or not onos are overpowered, but I do agree that too often you find people who just go skulk to onos, and don't really use anything between. This was an issue with NS1 as well. Charlie said they were going to address this with NS2, but it doesn't look like they have gotten around to it yet.
In my opinion, a viable solution would be to reduce mid tier lifeform prices when the second hive goes up, say reduce lerk cost from 30 to 20, fade from 50 to 40, while onos is always at 85 resources and gorge is always at 10.
This would also further reduce the problem of it being too easy for marines to turtle due to having relatively (compared to aliens) easy access to tech other than just a plain LMG, in addition to the ability to recover many of these upgrades after death. That is, when aliens die, their ability to recover is increased as well.
Basically, just make it as likely that a player will stay skulk the majority of the game as a marine will stick with just an LMG the majority of the game. Besides, upgrades are always more fun than staying with buck nothing, so I think the players might enjoy it more.
<!--quoteo(post=2052296:date=Dec 28 2012, 04:22 PM:name=GreatGrizzly)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GreatGrizzly @ Dec 28 2012, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So according to your own account: Your Onos was able to run head first into multiple EXO's fire (you spoke of EXO[s], plural) as well as their marine supporting units. Managed to hit them once, then was able to retreat back to your base, still alive.
And your arguing that EXO's are overpowered....how exactly?
It actually sounded like the EXO's where using their one advantage to full effect: Their range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There wasn't usually many exos bombarding same time, others were back in the corridor. If there were more than 1 exo shooting me at the same time i would have died before i reach them so in those situations i tried to block some of the fire in the hive and wait for skulks to harass them.
The point is, if the Exo starts firing onos before he is in exos face, onos will get facerolled. So when theres multiple exos its almost impossible to stop because even onoses drop down in couple of seconds. The advantage of being ranged grows exponentially when their numbers do unlike with melee(Think about starcraft 2 mass marine vs mass zealot or mass zergling for example) because onoses can very rarely all dps at the same time.
if 5 onos train goes against 5 exos all onoses will get wiped in couple of seconds last one might maybe just maybe get 1 hit before he dies. So at the best onos can go 50/50 against exo(if he can sneak on exo) other times exos has huge advantage. So often defending hive for example onos has only bad options compared to exo, onos cant charge them because he dies, onos cant also not charge them because hive dies, exos just change target. Exos can always just camp and protect whatever area they what without no worries from some melee creatures.
So being a ranged is exos "only advantage"? Well that advantage is so massive with their dmg that it makes any advantages onos might have worthless. Onoses might need a small nerf, but then exos need a BIG nerf, because now as it is Exos have advantage over onoses.
Counter arguments to some usual crap: Exos cant beacon -> neither can onos. Exos need support(Exos has btw a privilige to have robotic gorges which take, no supply. When gorge is healing it needs 1 player to do it, crags cant move effectively.) -> so does onos. mass onos can kill power node too fast -> exos take out hive even faster(without risking their lives unlike onos does). And btw good commander can beacon before powernode goes down no matter how many onoses. aliens cant beacon when 3 exos kill hive in 5 seconds.
Conclusion: Onos is good, Exos are godlike. Just last night i vent 46-2 and rolled aliens 2 hives in couple of minutes when i jumped in my dual minigun suit. dual miniguns research complete -> exo train faceroll victory gg. In the beginning going exo was actually sort of "fun" now its boring because game turns into supereasy mode(even easier than onos) Just walk to hive, annihilate everything u see on the way, kill hive, repeat. gg.
<!--quoteo(post=2052366:date=Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There wasn't usually many exos bombarding same time, others were back in the corridor. If there were more than 1 exo shooting me at the same time i would have died before i reach them so in those situations i tried to block some of the fire in the hive and wait for skulks to harass them.
The point is, if the Exo starts firing onos before he is in exos face, onos will get facerolled. So when theres multiple exos its almost impossible to stop because even onoses drop down in couple of seconds. The advantage of being ranged grows exponentially when their numbers do unlike with melee(Think about starcraft 2 mass marine vs mass zealot or mass zergling for example) because onoses can very rarely all dps at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doenst make Exos stronger then Onos. That just changes your tactic to take them down. You usually harras Exos with gorges and inferiour lifeforms and try to take out their supports. Onos just land the killing blow. Charging into an supported Exo train is just stupid. However you can deal with Exos even with skulks if you remove their supports. And thats not that hard if the Alien team got Onos who tank damage and run while Skulks and Fades take care of Marines. Or just simply force a beacon, so exos will just get destroyed. Effectivety of Exos stay and fall with support. Something Onos dont need. Also again you dont even need to use you brain like that if you got 5 Onos. Just charge into Exos and ###### them up in a good moment. 2 Exos will maybe kill1 Onos before they get destroyed. Numbers can be different with increasing playersnumbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2052366:date=Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if 5 onos train goes against 5 exos all onoses will get wiped in couple of seconds last one might maybe just maybe get 1 hit before he dies. So at the best onos can go 50/50 against exo(if he can sneak on exo) other times exos has huge advantage. So often defending hive for example onos has only bad options compared to exo, onos cant charge them because he dies, onos cant also not charge them because hive dies, exos just change target. Exos can always just camp and protect whatever area they what without no worries from some melee creatures.
So being a ranged is exos "only advantage"? Well that advantage is so massive with their dmg that it makes any advantages onos might have worthless. Onoses might need a small nerf, but then exos need a BIG nerf, because now as it is Exos have advantage over onoses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines got 5 Exos they lost the game. Aliens dont need to fight them. You just go for basetrade because Oni are 10 times faster then Exos. Also you can leave 1-2 gorges behind who bilebomb the unsupported exo train, so they probably wont even reach your second hive. Exos win the fight in a battle of numbers, but they lose the game. 2 Days ago i was commanding on a public server, just for fun. There we had the perfect example of all go Onos vs all go Exos. Marineteam were winning 3 ccs vs 2 hives. until 8 of 10 players went Exo then 2 oni just destroyed 2 of 3 bases without contest. Exo train dropped 1 hive and got ######ed up by persistent Skulk and Gorge harras with Oni keeping attacking last CC forcing several exos to stay behind. In the end aliens won the game. Thats exactly what happens if full marine team go exo.
<!--quoteo(post=2052366:date=Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Counter arguments to some usual crap: Exos cant beacon -> neither can onos. Exos need support(Exos has btw a privilige to have robotic gorges which take, no supply. When gorge is healing it needs 1 player to do it, crags cant move effectively.) -> so does onos. mass onos can kill power node too fast -> exos take out hive even faster(without risking their lives unlike onos does). And btw good commander can beacon before powernode goes down no matter how many onoses. aliens cant beacon when 3 exos kill hive in 5 seconds.
Conclusion: Onos is good, Exos are godlike. Just last night i vent 46-2 and rolled aliens 2 hives in couple of minutes when i jumped in my dual minigun suit. dual miniguns research complete -> exo train faceroll victory gg. In the beginning going exo was actually sort of "fun" now its boring because game turns into supereasy mode(even easier than onos) Just walk to hive, annihilate everything u see on the way, kill hive, repeat. gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens cant beacon in general thats just bull######. I dont see why Onos need a beacon theyre faster than marines without jetpack. Thats pretty crazy mobility for an 3100 HP tank. Macs are useless to support exos. 1 Gorge destroy all of them with few bilebombs at the same time. So you can only use them if your exos walk back to a safe area where you place macs. Thats why you will need ages to push ###### if you substitute marines with Macs. If you hit critical mass of Onos beacon wont help Marines anymore because onos will eat them alive. When you hit Critical mass of Exos aliens just go for basetrade and win the game because Oni are overall more mobile. Only braindead Aliens will be caught by an Exo train infront of their hive by surprise if you consider their mobility. So its easy for aliens to be everywhere they want before exos even reach the Hive, what allows them to go for an basetrade or force beacon to take out exos.
Also what support do Onos exactly need? Heal? Thats solved by Crag positions, you dont even need gorges...
Your conclusion might be true for rookie servers, but not for a half decent alien team. There is nothing easier to deal with then Exo trains of you have some decent lifeforms up.
<!--quoteo(post=2052382:date=Dec 28 2012, 08:14 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 28 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your conclusion might be true for rookie servers, but not for a half decent alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Aliens need to be good to beat that marine team. If they are both ###### marines win -> if other team needs skill to stand on even ground to noob team it's called op. exos > onos. And all the gorge skulk harass is easily stopped by couple of jetpackers with flamethrowers and gls.
"I dont see why Onos need a beacon theyre faster than marines without jetpack." Even if they are "fast", hive will be most likely down before onos arrives if there is a rush. Hives go down incredibly fast with concentrated fire even without exos. u shouldnt be comparing marine and onos speed, u should be just thinking does hive hp go down faster than onos runs to hive.
U are talking about strategies etc but why does one team need have good strategies to stand ground against a team walking and pressing mouse1 and 2?
Basetrade win scenario is pure speculation too, if aliens need to do that marines have a big head start. and if aliens are on 2 hive theres just 1 more to go pretty much and aliens need to kill 2-3cc before marines take down 1 more hive. And if marines want to be smart they can build new cc's to old hive spots while they are taking down hives.
"If marines got 5 Exos they lost the game. Aliens dont need to fight them." There can still be 6+1 marines in bases with beacon, focusfiring onoses pretty fast. Yes i play 12v12 usually. If u say this game isn't balanced on 12v12, it should be because that's what the huge majority of ppl want to play.
Comments
The only reason they kind of worked in NS1, was because despite being stronger than a marine, it was quite rare to get enough onoses to make it a problem, as obviously if you have 5 onoses vs 5 marines the onoses should win. However, NS2 allows aliens to all go onos at the same time, more or less, or at least a lot of them. They're much easier to hit marines with, despite being very easy to hit with in NS1. They have more hitpoints, and charge is not 3 hive. Jetpack hmgs do not exist, and jetpacks not responsive or as fast to accelerate compared to NS1. The NS2 onos is more easy to play then anything in NS1 or NS2, as the only real counter is a damage check, not any form of skill or strategy.
The only reason they kind of worked in NS1, was because despite being stronger than a marine, it was quite rare to get enough onoses to make it a problem, as obviously if you have 5 onoses vs 5 marines the onoses should win. However, NS2 allows aliens to all go onos at the same time, more or less, or at least a lot of them. They're much easier to hit marines with, despite being very easy to hit with in NS1. They have more hitpoints, and charge is not 3 hive. Jetpack hmgs do not exist, and jetpacks not responsive or as fast to accelerate compared to NS1. The NS2 onos is more easy to play then anything in NS1 or NS2, as the only real counter is a damage check, not any form of skill or strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
U are assuming the alien team has managed to survive without any1 using res to the point they can all onos, if this is the case teams are massively unbalanced and they wouldnt even need onoses to win.
Often tho alien team tries to do something like that because fade is way too weak. Its much slower and squishier than in NS1. NS2 lacks focus which made fade something to fear. Even sentry turrets kill fade in few seconds in NS2 LOL. Fade also lacks the self healing ability from NS1 so they cant go harass behind the lines effectively. Now all the games seem to be a race against time with aliens, if they survive with at least 2 hives to the point many can onos they have a chance, otherwise they are doomed almost certainly.
NS2 Lerk spores being a late game 2 hive and researched skill also sucks. Aliens are too low on effective weapons against marines till the onoses go up.
It doesn't change the fact that Marines are on a timer from the moment the game starts. The moment that timer hits 0, they basically lose automatically. At best they can somewhat delay the timer by being extremely aggressive at damaging the Alien economy, but the timer continues to tick down regardless. If they don't win before the Oni hit the field, that's game. Aliens have no such timer, and asymmetrical gameplay has nothing to do with it. It's unreasonable and unfun/unfair to the Marines.
I definitely wouldn't say that Onos are the end-all-be-all game ender that you are making them out to be. I've seen many an onos slain by the focus fire of 2-3 marines.
It seems more like the problem is marines letting aliens get (and stay on) 3 hives, research stomp, let aliens build up to 75 pres and having 3-4 go onos. If aliens are able to do all this, then the marines weren't aggressive enough and don't deserve to win.
1. Lifeform mix is certainly viable and better since umbra is powerful, spores are powerful, bilebomb is powerful and fades are an excellent counter to jetpacks. Onos are pretty poor at killing actual marines when compared to the fade. They are a good bullet sponge and structure killer.
2. As with entire team going exosuit, entire team going onos is a risk. You hope you win the rush, otherwise you lose the game. Aliens have no chance of stopping an exosuit team except by killing the enemy base first, same with marines fighting an entire team of onos. However unlock exosuits, there are only so many onos that can dogpile on a structure or power node.
3. Dual exo vs onos = dead onos. Same pres investment. Arguably a larger investment for the alien, since aliens are supposed to hold less res towers than marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2051254:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:48 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 26 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the onos, it's not as if the issue is that is has too much hitpoints or something like that specifically. However, marines need some more options in order to address the arrival of the onos. Right now it basically counters everything marines have, and marines have no counter to onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if trolling or just stupid.
The only thing I would argue is that the onos is pretty easy to play compared to other lifeforms. Its arguably the easiest thing to do in game. Right now only skill in an onos is knowing when to retreat, timing stomp, and being able to charge down a jetpacker. It needs more of a skill ceiling.
I dont see why we would need a NS2 forum if we are not allowed to talk about the game. So my stupid topic is valid.
<!--quoteo(post=2051517:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Lifeform mix is certainly viable and better since umbra is powerful, spores are powerful, bilebomb is powerful and fades are an excellent counter to jetpacks. Onos are pretty poor at killing actual marines when compared to the fade. They are a good bullet sponge and structure killer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is viable, but you can succeed without fades and ubmbra pretty easy because damaged Onos can retreat to crack positions while others attack, If marines chase them they will most likely die or lose their base to other oni. If Onos players dont go all in, and if theyre not stupid they wont, marine base will fall even easier then with a proper mix. No, Fades need way to many swips to take out A3 marines. Onos kill marines off faster due to stomp and greater damage output. Only disadvantage is that its easy to kite an Onos as a jetpacker.
<!--quoteo(post=2051517:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. As with entire team going exosuit, entire team going onos is a risk. You hope you win the rush, otherwise you lose the game. Aliens have no chance of stopping an exosuit team except by killing the enemy base first, same with marines fighting an entire team of onos. However unlock exosuits, there are only so many onos that can dogpile on a structure or power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope you dont take any risk if your entire team go Onos thats exactly the problem. Onos combine all strengths of other lifeforms. Exopush is easy to stop, lets say your entire team (6 people) are oni. If marines push your hive they can afford max 2 Exos, rest have to support. You let 3 Oni at your hive, while 3 others attack all marine bases at the same time. Marine commander will have beacon, your oni run away when they hear the sound and you have got 2 unsupported exos as meal for the Oni defending mainbase. Now lets say this Exos arent supported and entire marine team is an Exo. You dont even need to kill them. Your Oni will destroy all enemy bases even faster then Exos reach your second hive. Also the unsupported exo train can easily be sniped by few gorges and lose effectivness due to blocking each others bullets.
<!--quoteo(post=2051517:date=Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 26 2012, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. Dual exo vs onos = dead onos. Same pres investment. Arguably a larger investment for the alien, since aliens are supposed to hold less res towers than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats just wrong. Dualexo ######s up Onos if the Onos charge at him and the dualexo is able to get alot of damage from distance. If the Onos player is smart, he will wait untill he can appear infront of the exosuit. If that happens the Onos will kill the Exo faster. Ofc were talking about a lone Exo without support. No, dual Exo is a larger investment because the Marine com cant drop them, so you need to wait for players getting enough pres. While 3 Hive alien com can just spam onos eggs.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/AWXWq.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Because of the Onos' massive damage sponging ability, the fact that it outmaneuvers all but jetpacked marines, it is a life form associated with very little risk.
Other life forms that are more fragile carry much greater risks of death due to their low tolerance for damage, and thus players naturally see where the best investment is. Save for an onos rather than risking pres for the other life forms.
It should be clear why marines should not all buy grenade launchers. It should be clear why marines should not all buy flame throwers. A marine team full of exosuits is a joke. An alien team full of oni simply soak too much damage to be killed without taking massive losses.
There should be advantages and disadvantages to each branch of the tech tree. I cannot see a disadvantage for selecting an onos other than that it is expensive. Compared to everything else in this game this is very out of place. I can think of advantages and disadvantages for everything in NS2 except the onos and the jetpack. This is a problem!
<b>Skulk: </b>Fast! <u>weak.</u> Free.
<b>Gorge:</b> <u>Slow! Squishy.</u> Walls! Hydras! Bile bomb WRECKS structures! Support healing! Cheap.
<b>Lerk:</b> Fast! weak. <u>doesn't damage structures well/ low directed dps.</u> Ranged! Umbra! AOE health damage! Moderate expense.
<b>Fade:</b> Fast! <u>doesn't damage structures well.</u> Teleports! More dps than skulk! <u>Clumsy when attacking</u> Expensive.
<b>Onos:</b> Fast! Maneuverable! Massive HP! High damage vs units. High damage vs structures! Stuns ground units! Very expensive.
<b>Rifle:</b> Great range. High rate of fire. Melee. <u>low damage per hit.</u> Free.
<b>Shotgun:</b> <u>Poor range. Bullet grouping instead of pinpoint damage. Low rate of fire.</u> HUGE damage potential with proximity. Moderately expensive.
<b>Flame thrower: </b>Saps energy, does high damage on sustained fire, does damage over time, clears lerk mists, <u>kills prohibitively slowly when alone</u>. Moderately expensive.
<b>Grenade launcher:</b> Huge damage per hit. Area effect. Great against buildings and life forms. <u>huge damage delay</u>. Viable away from combat. <u>Countered by whips</u>. Expensive.
<b>Welder:</b> Support weapon, supports armored units, supports friendly structures. <u>Little to no combat damage potential.</u> Cheap
<b>Exosuit:</b> High damage per second, infinite ammo, r<u>equires heat management during sustained fire, very slow, cannot heal at armory, cannot teleport, cannot beacon</u>. Very expensive.
<b>Jetpacks:</b> Increase mobility, allow flight, <u>requires two tech points to be researched and purchased.</u> cheap.
Keep in mind that EXOS are ranged so they can attack at <i>any</i> distance, while an onos has to get in your face to do any damage at all.
I agree, i havent played in a while coz i got bored of playing skulk then evolving to onos. waste of res on anything else.
And if you come up against an onos or two, yell at your marines to group up and chase and focus fire it, it will die in seconds.
an onos 1v1 a 75 res exo is pretty balanced, the only way the onos will have a good chance of winning is if he can close the gap on the exo and get up its grill.
It would also allow teams to more easily designate roles, such as support, damage dealer, tank, structure scout, whatever you like. It would open up for progression within these roles as opposed to being a random chaotic progression where one minute one team has nothing, and the next they have the power to wipe you off the map.
Fades need some work I agree. Preferablly I want focus back. However mixed teams can control the engagement far better than an all onos team. All onos team can drop the CC before marines can kill them. An all exo team can kill the hive before aliens can kill them. With umbra you force multiply the onos by halving damage. With bile you can deal same damage (more to armour, less to health), and from range, as an onos. Mixed team can clear the marine team far better than the onos team can.
<!--quoteo(post=2051539:date=Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nope you dont take any risk if your entire team go Onos thats exactly the problem. Onos combine all strengths of other lifeforms. Exopush is easy to stop, lets say your entire team (6 people) are oni. If marines push your hive they can afford max 2 Exos, rest have to support. You let 3 Oni at your hive, while 3 others attack all marine bases at the same time. Marine commander will have beacon, your oni run away when they hear the sound and you have got 2 unsupported exos as meal for the Oni defending mainbase. Now lets say this Exos arent supported and entire marine team is an Exo. You dont even need to kill them. Your Oni will destroy all enemy bases even faster then Exos reach your second hive. Also the unsupported exo train can easily be sniped by few gorges and lose effectivness due to blocking each others bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a melee unit, onos need their speed. Perhaps when they get primal scream they can be reduced in base speed to make them less mobile across the map, but without its current speed it would go back to pre-carapace buff (carapace reduced speed, so onos entered bases slowly and lost all advantage. They were useless for a while except to distract from a gorge.). I would say the only foolishness is marines all going exosuit in their base, then slowly walking half the map to the hives. Onos can be evolved to anywhere.
<!--quoteo(post=2051539:date=Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 26 2012, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats just wrong. Dualexo ######s up Onos if the Onos charge at him and the dualexo is able to get alot of damage from distance. If the Onos player is smart, he will wait untill he can appear infront of the exosuit. If that happens the Onos will kill the Exo faster. Ofc were talking about a lone Exo without support. No, dual Exo is a larger investment because the Marine com cant drop them, so you need to wait for players getting enough pres. While 3 Hive alien com can just spam onos eggs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Used to be this way. Fairly quickly after release this changed and now only really bad dual exosuits lose in a fight with an onos.
I would like the marine comm to get dual exosuit drops though.
Nope. The Onos IS too strong and Fade is too weak.
Also, Exos... need nerf... hahahahahahahaha
They are also late game units, so that means there are more likely to be more then one, which increases their effectiveness exponentially, more so then 2 exos.
Exos are slow, cant beacon, cant teleport, cant self repair and such needs a support team to follow them around effectively tieing up 1 or more players per exo (x5 resource for the weld tool), who might be needed elsewhere. This makes them a pain to properly support in the field.
I feel like the onos was used to fill the "really expensive unit" slot for the aliens, then became OP to justify the high cost.
Indeed they are ranged which is a HUGE advantage. I was playing onos couple of days ago and was defending repair room in NS_Tram. Exos and marines keep firing from the doorway time to time to the hive, everytime i went there to "smash" some exos because onos > exo in ur opinion i had to turn halfway back so i wont die because of their insane firepower, sometimes i got in melee range to deliver one blow before i had to run again. After 5-10min stalemate hive was about to die so i had to charge in there to kill exos, but i couldnt kill any instead i got shot down in couple of seconds with carapace.
Exos do benefit from armor uprgades at least idk about weapons.
Exos do benefit from armor uprgades at least idk about weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So according to your own account: Your Onos was able to run head first into multiple EXO's fire (you spoke of EXO[s], plural) as well as their marine supporting units. Managed to hit them once, then was able to retreat back to your base, still alive.
And your arguing that EXO's are overpowered....how exactly?
It actually sounded like the EXO's where using their one advantage to full effect: Their range.
Generally speaking from a PUB point of view, when I play Ono and I run into an area that has 4 marines I just turn and run. I don't have the numbers to back me up, but 4 marines with LMG chew through your armour and start working on your HP instantly with just the 1st clip. All these scenarios seem to be based around the Ono just appearing unannounced and smashing an undefended location/base. Picture running into Cafe after you've been scouted coming through Bar? all it needs is 3 spread out marines in that room with w2 or w3 vs 1 Onos and the Onos will most probably die.
I reckon alot of these examples are coming from unbalanced pub matches, where the alien team was already ahead without having to worry about lerks/fades too much which let them get 3-4 onos at the same time at the 15 minute mark. Sure, the Onos will be strong then.
I think all lifeforms, like all marine research tech comes down to the teamplay involved in the game. I don't really feel certain lifeforms are overpowered against basically every other option. Overstepping or being caught out as an Onos against a few JP marines means you're dead. Just like overstepping as an exo means you die.
Someone mentioned competitive play earlier, and I've only seen the 2 hive comm Ono egg build for comp play (I haven't watched anything more recent) but it looked to me like the Ono wasn't used to end the game, it was used as a defensive unit. Trying to harass and draw marine attention. To me that doesn't seem like an OP unit. It seems like a strong unit worth respecting but not game breaking.
Personally I like to go from Skulk to Ono simply because I'm not competent with Lerk/Fade. Like someone said the skill ceiling for Ono is about where I can handle it. I've never really played NS1 so don't have background experience with the lifeforms, but I've seen good Lerk/Fades wreck PUB games.
Generally speaking from a PUB point of view, when I play Ono and I run into an area that has 4 marines I just turn and run. I don't have the numbers to back me up, but 4 marines with LMG chew through your armour and start working on your HP instantly with just the 1st clip. All these scenarios seem to be based around the Ono just appearing unannounced and smashing an undefended location/base. Picture running into Cafe after you've been scouted coming through Bar? all it needs is 3 spread out marines in that room with w2 or w3 vs 1 Onos and the Onos will most probably die.
I reckon alot of these examples are coming from unbalanced pub matches, where the alien team was already ahead without having to worry about lerks/fades too much which let them get 3-4 onos at the same time at the 15 minute mark. Sure, the Onos will be strong then.
I think all lifeforms, like all marine research tech comes down to the teamplay involved in the game. I don't really feel certain lifeforms are overpowered against basically every other option. Overstepping or being caught out as an Onos against a few JP marines means you're dead. Just like overstepping as an exo means you die.
Someone mentioned competitive play earlier, and I've only seen the 2 hive comm Ono egg build for comp play (I haven't watched anything more recent) but it looked to me like the Ono wasn't used to end the game, it was used as a defensive unit. Trying to harass and draw marine attention. To me that doesn't seem like an OP unit. It seems like a strong unit worth respecting but not game breaking.
Personally I like to go from Skulk to Ono simply because I'm not competent with Lerk/Fade. Like someone said the skill ceiling for Ono is about where I can handle it. I've never really played NS1 so don't have background experience with the lifeforms, but I've seen good Lerk/Fades wreck PUB games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp is really good with clusters of marine units as it knocks them to the ground. It makes sense that many cheaper units would take out an Onos quickly. Onos attacks while strong, are relatively slow, and thus aren't effective against many weaker units.
You also have to remember though that by running around in there you have 4 players distracted. In many games that's half of the enemy team. Taking half the team out of the fight, even if temporarily is extremely powerful.
I think Onos needs to be toned down in all areas, as well as made cheaper to compensate. Stop them from being end game super weapons, but still strong enough to lead the charge for a well balanced alien team.
In my opinion, a viable solution would be to reduce mid tier lifeform prices when the second hive goes up, say reduce lerk cost from 30 to 20, fade from 50 to 40, while onos is always at 85 resources and gorge is always at 10.
This would also further reduce the problem of it being too easy for marines to turtle due to having relatively (compared to aliens) easy access to tech other than just a plain LMG, in addition to the ability to recover many of these upgrades after death. That is, when aliens die, their ability to recover is increased as well.
Basically, just make it as likely that a player will stay skulk the majority of the game as a marine will stick with just an LMG the majority of the game. Besides, upgrades are always more fun than staying with buck nothing, so I think the players might enjoy it more.
And your arguing that EXO's are overpowered....how exactly?
It actually sounded like the EXO's where using their one advantage to full effect: Their range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There wasn't usually many exos bombarding same time, others were back in the corridor. If there were more than 1 exo shooting me at the same time i would have died before i reach them so in those situations i tried to block some of the fire in the hive and wait for skulks to harass them.
The point is, if the Exo starts firing onos before he is in exos face, onos will get facerolled. So when theres multiple exos its almost impossible to stop because even onoses drop down in couple of seconds. The advantage of being ranged grows exponentially when their numbers do unlike with melee(Think about starcraft 2 mass marine vs mass zealot or mass zergling for example) because onoses can very rarely all dps at the same time.
if 5 onos train goes against 5 exos all onoses will get wiped in couple of seconds last one might maybe just maybe get 1 hit before he dies. So at the best onos can go 50/50 against exo(if he can sneak on exo) other times exos has huge advantage. So often defending hive for example onos has only bad options compared to exo, onos cant charge them because he dies, onos cant also not charge them because hive dies, exos just change target. Exos can always just camp and protect whatever area they what without no worries from some melee creatures.
So being a ranged is exos "only advantage"? Well that advantage is so massive with their dmg that it makes any advantages onos might have worthless. Onoses might need a small nerf, but then exos need a BIG nerf, because now as it is Exos have advantage over onoses.
Counter arguments to some usual crap: Exos cant beacon -> neither can onos. Exos need support(Exos has btw a privilige to have robotic gorges which take, no supply. When gorge is healing it needs 1 player to do it, crags cant move effectively.) -> so does onos. mass onos can kill power node too fast -> exos take out hive even faster(without risking their lives unlike onos does). And btw good commander can beacon before powernode goes down no matter how many onoses. aliens cant beacon when 3 exos kill hive in 5 seconds.
Conclusion: Onos is good, Exos are godlike. Just last night i vent 46-2 and rolled aliens 2 hives in couple of minutes when i jumped in my dual minigun suit. dual miniguns research complete -> exo train faceroll victory gg. In the beginning going exo was actually sort of "fun" now its boring because game turns into supereasy mode(even easier than onos) Just walk to hive, annihilate everything u see on the way, kill hive, repeat. gg.
The point is, if the Exo starts firing onos before he is in exos face, onos will get facerolled. So when theres multiple exos its almost impossible to stop because even onoses drop down in couple of seconds. The advantage of being ranged grows exponentially when their numbers do unlike with melee(Think about starcraft 2 mass marine vs mass zealot or mass zergling for example) because onoses can very rarely all dps at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That doenst make Exos stronger then Onos. That just changes your tactic to take them down. You usually harras Exos with gorges and inferiour lifeforms and try to take out their supports. Onos just land the killing blow. Charging into an supported Exo train is just stupid. However you can deal with Exos even with skulks if you remove their supports. And thats not that hard if the Alien team got Onos who tank damage and run while Skulks and Fades take care of Marines. Or just simply force a beacon, so exos will just get destroyed. Effectivety of Exos stay and fall with support. Something Onos dont need. Also again you dont even need to use you brain like that if you got 5 Onos. Just charge into Exos and ###### them up in a good moment. 2 Exos will maybe kill1 Onos before they get destroyed. Numbers can be different with increasing playersnumbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2052366:date=Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if 5 onos train goes against 5 exos all onoses will get wiped in couple of seconds last one might maybe just maybe get 1 hit before he dies. So at the best onos can go 50/50 against exo(if he can sneak on exo) other times exos has huge advantage. So often defending hive for example onos has only bad options compared to exo, onos cant charge them because he dies, onos cant also not charge them because hive dies, exos just change target. Exos can always just camp and protect whatever area they what without no worries from some melee creatures.
So being a ranged is exos "only advantage"? Well that advantage is so massive with their dmg that it makes any advantages onos might have worthless. Onoses might need a small nerf, but then exos need a BIG nerf, because now as it is Exos have advantage over onoses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If marines got 5 Exos they lost the game. Aliens dont need to fight them. You just go for basetrade because Oni are 10 times faster then Exos. Also you can leave 1-2 gorges behind who bilebomb the unsupported exo train, so they probably wont even reach your second hive. Exos win the fight in a battle of numbers, but they lose the game. 2 Days ago i was commanding on a public server, just for fun. There we had the perfect example of all go Onos vs all go Exos. Marineteam were winning 3 ccs vs 2 hives. until 8 of 10 players went Exo then 2 oni just destroyed 2 of 3 bases without contest. Exo train dropped 1 hive and got ######ed up by persistent Skulk and Gorge harras with Oni keeping attacking last CC forcing several exos to stay behind. In the end aliens won the game. Thats exactly what happens if full marine team go exo.
<!--quoteo(post=2052366:date=Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM:name=VittuLima)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VittuLima @ Dec 28 2012, 09:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Counter arguments to some usual crap: Exos cant beacon -> neither can onos. Exos need support(Exos has btw a privilige to have robotic gorges which take, no supply. When gorge is healing it needs 1 player to do it, crags cant move effectively.) -> so does onos. mass onos can kill power node too fast -> exos take out hive even faster(without risking their lives unlike onos does). And btw good commander can beacon before powernode goes down no matter how many onoses. aliens cant beacon when 3 exos kill hive in 5 seconds.
Conclusion: Onos is good, Exos are godlike. Just last night i vent 46-2 and rolled aliens 2 hives in couple of minutes when i jumped in my dual minigun suit. dual miniguns research complete -> exo train faceroll victory gg. In the beginning going exo was actually sort of "fun" now its boring because game turns into supereasy mode(even easier than onos) Just walk to hive, annihilate everything u see on the way, kill hive, repeat. gg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens cant beacon in general thats just bull######. I dont see why Onos need a beacon theyre faster than marines without jetpack. Thats pretty crazy mobility for an 3100 HP tank. Macs are useless to support exos. 1 Gorge destroy all of them with few bilebombs at the same time. So you can only use them if your exos walk back to a safe area where you place macs. Thats why you will need ages to push ###### if you substitute marines with Macs. If you hit critical mass of Onos beacon wont help Marines anymore because onos will eat them alive. When you hit Critical mass of Exos aliens just go for basetrade and win the game because Oni are overall more mobile. Only braindead Aliens will be caught by an Exo train infront of their hive by surprise if you consider their mobility. So its easy for aliens to be everywhere they want before exos even reach the Hive, what allows them to go for an basetrade or force beacon to take out exos.
Also what support do Onos exactly need? Heal? Thats solved by Crag positions, you dont even need gorges...
Your conclusion might be true for rookie servers, but not for a half decent alien team. There is nothing easier to deal with then Exo trains of you have some decent lifeforms up.
Exactly. Aliens need to be good to beat that marine team. If they are both ###### marines win -> if other team needs skill to stand on even ground to noob team it's called op. exos > onos. And all the gorge skulk harass is easily stopped by couple of jetpackers with flamethrowers and gls.
"I dont see why Onos need a beacon theyre faster than marines without jetpack." Even if they are "fast", hive will be most likely down before onos arrives if there is a rush. Hives go down incredibly fast with concentrated fire even without exos. u shouldnt be comparing marine and onos speed, u should be just thinking does hive hp go down faster than onos runs to hive.
U are talking about strategies etc but why does one team need have good strategies to stand ground against a team walking and pressing mouse1 and 2?
Basetrade win scenario is pure speculation too, if aliens need to do that marines have a big head start. and if aliens are on 2 hive theres just 1 more to go pretty much and aliens need to kill 2-3cc before marines take down 1 more hive. And if marines want to be smart they can build new cc's to old hive spots while they are taking down hives.
"If marines got 5 Exos they lost the game. Aliens dont need to fight them." There can still be 6+1 marines in bases with beacon, focusfiring onoses pretty fast. Yes i play 12v12 usually. If u say this game isn't balanced on 12v12, it should be because that's what the huge majority of ppl want to play.