<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Autobalance isn't there to make you sit<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that's what it does
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game is competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody leaves in competitive games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is, strangely enough, quite rare; I wonder why that is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because it's default. Like internet explorer.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being 2 players down for any amount of time is enormously detrimental in NS2, for either team. So my team should lose because two people found themselves unable to play due to, say, a sudden power outage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And other 2 found themselves unable to play because of power outage of two other people... uh, wow. Nice punishment for somethine that is not your fault.
<!--quoteo(post=2064044:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:16 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 20 2013, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has anyone in their experience seen an Alien team take advantage of it? i.e. Alright, we just fought a battle and the marines all died. Bob and Joe are Onos and in position with Sam and John who are fades. Everyone else hit F4 to autoteam-balance their team and we can hit the power button and win the game. I don't care noob, hit F4. Hit F4 or you're a (derogatory name).
Or: Alright, we're down by a lot. The 4/10 bottom players hit F4 so the pro players can rape their team.
I could see the Auto-balance team mechanic being abused this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could be, but there is a risk attached due to the auto-forfeit if one too many people f4. Takes coordination and ruthlessness that pubs generally lack and would be banned in anything serious anyway. Actually the autobalance itself wouldn't be included in anything serious.
Had an 80 min game during the weekend where the poor ever suffering alien com built 9 hives, the marines must have spent untold res on arcs and scans, there was even one point where the aliens had zero grown hives and zero eggs, their com couldn't even spawn.
<!--quoteo(post=2064044:date=Jan 21 2013, 03:16 PM:name=Vigilantia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vigilantia @ Jan 21 2013, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has anyone in their experience seen an Alien team take advantage of it? i.e. Alright, we just fought a battle and the marines all died. Bob and Joe are Onos and in position with Sam and John who are fades. Everyone else hit F4 to autoteam-balance their team and we can hit the power button and win the game. I don't care noob, hit F4. Hit F4 or you're a (derogatory name).
Or: Alright, we're down by a lot. The 4/10 bottom players hit F4 so the pro players can rape their team.
I could see the Auto-balance team mechanic being abused this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mutter mutter...had not thought of doing that...could be a great way to minimise the loss of your onos.
OP: The point is you are talking about public servers, so punishing teams for attrition in numbers won't work as you can't control your subs like you can in a competitive environment. There is 2 concede methods in the game which both work and so far I've seen seldom used, pleasently. Those of us that don't quit *obviously* want to keep playing, this feature works *with* a public free opt in opt out environment to perpetuate the game state untill more player join. As annoying as it is, the alternative is stale wins, a slipper slope towards giving up after losing your first 2 havesters. The game is hard enough with to play beyond this point given those one your team who inevitably quit at that stage.
I don't have this problem not often because on most pubs I play, most people never rage quit, F4 or even vote concede - which is bad imo, because there are many games you can't win anymore (1 remaining RT, all upgrades gone) and in these games, you play against a team who isn't aggressive enough to end it quickly. I want to enjoy as many new, fair and thrilling games as possible and I don't want to sit for half an hour in a lost game on a losing team which is bullied by a enemy with superior powers who is rushing the spawn on and on, killing all the players but none of the structures...
And when I have the auto balance wait for a long time (in a winning team) it's always because my team mates won't die. In other words: they are too good/well equipped/upgraded for the enemy to kill them. So why should I spawn to make it even worse for the enemy?
What I want to say: when you are winning, end the game quickly and don't bother to pummel your foes to eternity - they might F4 and make it worse for yourself. Would more winning teams play like that (in other words: "ATTACK THE FRIGGIN POWER NODE!!!") on pubs, auto balance wouldn't be a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=2063712:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:39 AM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My team wins most of the games I'm in. I'm always applying tactics that annoy the hell out of the other team, tactics that are hard to deal with (bile from vents, ninja phasegates), ruining their economy by all means possible, being generally aggressive. I'm usually at the top of the scoreboard because I'm killing so much structures, tho my K:D ratio is way below 1 (I taunt after every kill as well, which I know sets some butts on fire). I contribute too much to my team, I annoy too much of the other team, no wonder they are leaving. But being aggressive means you will have to die a lot. And this means you will be forced to spectate some parts of the most matches you are in. I'm spectating waaaay too much because I'm too good at making other team lose. Wow, nice 'balance'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's exactly the kind of player behaviour/play style that could benefit the losing (lesser player) team if you switched to them... ever thought about that?
additionally, it may be even more fun for you to win against the team that would have won through your actions (as you stated). in other words: you could beat yourself. this should be a promising challenge, shouldn't it? ;)
At least this games' autobalace gives you consent and choice... <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4cHeEvbjDKg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4cHeEvbjDKg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Teams start to become unbalanced near the end of the game, so now you can’t spawn. Now you have the option to sit and wait, leave the game and spectate or switch to the losing side, WTF.
I’m going to assume that when people think auto-team balance is meant to keep the teams fair, those people just started playing games and don’t have a clue what skill is. Forced team balance is nothing but an annoyance and slows the end of the game down.
<!--quoteo(post=2064110:date=Jan 21 2013, 11:26 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Jan 21 2013, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Teams start to become unbalanced near the end of the game, so now you can’t spawn. Now you have the option to sit and wait, leave the game and spectate or switch to the losing side, WTF.
I’m going to assume that when people think auto-team balance is meant to keep the teams fair, those people just started playing games and don’t have a clue what skill is. Forced team balance is nothing but an annoyance and slows the end of the game down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again you assume the game is over. And once again, this mechanic is not meant to save games that are already over, but to prevent good games that are not yet decided from being ruined.
The idea of "slowing the end of the game down" is completely null and void now. As if F4ing wasn't enough, many servers now implement the surrender function, which takes care of that. Why do you expect that the autobalance should be seeking to solve a problem which is already addressed elsewhere in the game?
Besides players F4ing is usually not as much of an issue for marines as for aliens. Marines can have a lot of fun while turtling with no hope of winning. On the other hand, if aliens lose a hive, the F4 rage begins. I think this is because: a) You pretty much always get instagibbed as alien. Getting killed out of nowhere without even knowing what happened is very frustrating. b) The alien spawn system; it has the same function as the autobalance. Getting egglocked is annoying, even more annoying is sitting in your egg and get killed.
This is ironic because it is easier for the aliens to make a comeback than for the marines (the longer a game lasts, the more an alien victory is likely - look at ns2stats for evidence).
I had a game last night where autobalance kicked in at the precise moment we needed spawners. It was on veil, and as marines we'd made 3 failed attempts to get nanogrid. We pushed a fourth time, and took everything down, killing all the aliens there. We got the power and phase up, and repelled 2 alien attacks successfully. During the third attack, autobalance kicked in when a couple of aliens either left, dropped or F4'd (I don't know which) - but they were already on top, they had 2 hives and we hadn't yet secured a second tech point. The reinforcements from the first couple of deaths would easily have had time to spawn in and phase through while a teammate and I held nanogrid against a fairly big alien push, but we were overwhelmed by the last remaining skulk. With the spawn delay caused by autobalance, no-one could spawn and phase in time, so we lost nanogrid: losing the game there and then (of course it went on the slippery slope for another 1/2hr because the aliens were too disorganised to finish it). Within a minute, the teams were even again, and aliens had the entire map. It was a large server, and unfortunately the 2 of us on my team at the top were carrying a lot of dead weight: people not communicating and unable to shoot. The alien team wasn't much better, to be fair, but with cowardly marines we were doomed after that nano loss. I tried to muster some action to take a hive, but it wasn't long before it turned into a large server turtlefest. K:D ratios were better for the marines than the aliens, who were idiotically running in alone as onos/gorge/skulk and in the end someone jumped in the comm chair and recycled everything without asking the team. Very annoying game overall - it would have been a close game (probably still a marine loss, but hey we'll never know) had we not been gimped for the 30s we needed reinforcements.
Lesson 1: don't join large servers (I thought I'd give 24p a go again... big mistake) Lesson 2: Autobalance isn't perfect: it can screw you over at the most critical time in the game.
With that said, it's a LOT better than being autoswitched in other games. On the whole, I think it could do with a tweak or two - but quite what tweaks I'm not sure. Autobalance kicking in during the final stage of the game is ridiculous, too - it does hamper teams from finishing quickly. I'd rather games were finished properly rather than conceded, but at least the option to concede is now there and pubbers are learning about it.
TL;DR: Anecdote about 1 game in which autobalance contributed heavily to marine loss. Autoswitch not all bad, but could use some improvement in certain situations.
"Within a minute, the teams were even again"? No, they were always even, thanks to the respawn restriction. The teams were fair, and you lost the fight. Don't grope for excuses. Engaged and beaten, simple as that.
I have no idea what to do with trolls like stroflix that infest this forum. Report? Hope that some wise old man can explain to him how wrong he is? What to do? The autoteambalance also has the problem that sometimes a 8 vs 6 fight would actually be fair because the team of 6 have better players (and are op aliens). Edit, so even strofix understands it: Autoteambalance does not allow such matchups even though it could be fun and the players would like to play like that.
<!--quoteo(post=2064127:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:14 PM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 21 2013, 12:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064127"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The autoteambalance also has the problem that sometimes a 8 vs 6 fight would actually be fair because the team of 6 have better players (and are op aliens).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So now it is meant to correct inherent skill imbalances between the teams as well? Is this team balancer supposed to be the answer to every problem the game has or something? I get the feeling you guys are either expecting too much from it, or you are blaming everything on it in an attempt to validate your point of view.
Aliens have a 60% win rate over marines, could the auto balance be to blame?
I think Auto-balance is fine as it is. Pub play is for fun. Vote concede now exist and mass F4 was used before it.
I don't understand how this is big deal. If the losing teams players are leaving, turning on auto-balance, the winning team is still in a great position.
If a top player, on the winning team, is stuck waiting for someone to die, then it's balanced by how well their teammates are playing; if they aren't very good, the top player will be back sooner.
<!--quoteo(post=2064120:date=Jan 21 2013, 02:05 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 21 2013, 02:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had a game last night where autobalance kicked in at the precise moment we needed spawners. It was on veil, and as marines we'd made 3 failed attempts to get nanogrid. We pushed a fourth time, and took everything down, killing all the aliens there. We got the power and phase up, and repelled 2 alien attacks successfully. During the third attack, autobalance kicked in when a couple of aliens either left, dropped or F4'd (I don't know which) - but they were already on top, they had 2 hives and we hadn't yet secured a second tech point. The reinforcements from the first couple of deaths would easily have had time to spawn in and phase through while a teammate and I held nanogrid against a fairly big alien push, but we were overwhelmed by the last remaining skulk. With the spawn delay caused by autobalance, no-one could spawn and phase in time, so we lost nanogrid: losing the game there and then (of course it went on the slippery slope for another 1/2hr because the aliens were too disorganised to finish it). Within a minute, the teams were even again, and aliens had the entire map. It was a large server, and unfortunately the 2 of us on my team at the top were carrying a lot of dead weight: people not communicating and unable to shoot. The alien team wasn't much better, to be fair, but with cowardly marines we were doomed after that nano loss. I tried to muster some action to take a hive, but it wasn't long before it turned into a large server turtlefest. K:D ratios were better for the marines than the aliens, who were idiotically running in alone as onos/gorge/skulk and in the end someone jumped in the comm chair and recycled everything without asking the team. Very annoying game overall - it would have been a close game (probably still a marine loss, but hey we'll never know) had we not been gimped for the 30s we needed reinforcements.
Lesson 1: don't join large servers (I thought I'd give 24p a go again... big mistake) Lesson 2: Autobalance isn't perfect: it can screw you over at the most critical time in the game.
With that said, it's a LOT better than being autoswitched in other games. On the whole, I think it could do with a tweak or two - but quite what tweaks I'm not sure. Autobalance kicking in during the final stage of the game is ridiculous, too - it does hamper teams from finishing quickly. I'd rather games were finished properly rather than conceded, but at least the option to concede is now there and pubbers are learning about it.
TL;DR: Anecdote about 1 game in which autobalance contributed heavily to marine loss. Autoswitch not all bad, but could use some improvement in certain situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try to keep in mind that if you are getting locked out for autobalance, the other team is down at least 2 players as well. That "last skulk" could just as well been 3 skulks or even 2 higher lifeforms and a skulk if people hadn't have left.
Exactly because pub play is meant for casual fun, I dont understand why the winning team gets punished if the other team F4s. Because certainly, getting punished for making your enemy give up is not fun. The problem is, that the aggressive marines get punished and the ######s sitting back in base stay alive while the aliens take the map.
Once again, this mechanic is not intended to rectify a situation where one team is losing badly, nor is it meant to prevent a team from winning comprehensively. This system is intended to conserve the balance in a game which is as of yet undecided. Once the game moves to a stage where the winner is clearly determined, then who cares what happens, the players should have already F4d. If they don't want to, then they need to change teams accordingly when imbalances arise.
<!--quoteo(post=2044520:date=Dec 12 2012, 11:22 AM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Dec 12 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Punish opossing team players for leavers on the other team. WOW WHAT A NICE WAY TO BALANCE TEAMS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a lot better than getting switched to the losing team when you die, I can tell you that from experience in other games. I'll wait 30 sex any day to not get switched to a crappy team (often without the ability to switch back even if numbers allow - hated that in BFBC2).
With the surrender vote finally implemented, there is no reason why anyone should be idling in the ready room though. Play on admined servers where idlers are either automatically or manually kicked.
<!--quoteo(post=2064150:date=Jan 21 2013, 09:11 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 21 2013, 09:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again, this mechanic is not intended to rectify a situation where one team is losing badly, nor is it meant to prevent a team from winning comprehensively. This system is intended to conserve the balance in a game which is as of yet undecided. Once the game moves to a stage where the winner is clearly determined, then who cares what happens, the players should have already F4d. If they don't want to, then they need to change teams accordingly when imbalances arise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The mechanic is meant to stop the issue when players leave or being disco'd, it is not intended to drag out the result of a game due to players f4'ing. This, IMO, is illustrated by the fact we now have a concede vote (so if your f4'ing your simply causing grief for winning side), so its not compulsary to f4 if you want to make the game end.
Dont want to spawn and die...then simply go grab a drink, stop at the toilet (say hi to parents/flatmates..loved ones), this will ensure the other team is not handicapped and some of the other team cant spawn.
This is why people should count as being on the team they left for auto-balancing purposes. That way if you f4 you WILL BE SPEEDING up the end game. Currently your are prolonging it by f4'ing and having auto-balance kick in.
The fix here is simple, no one wants to drag out a dead game...heck I have seen the concede vote enabled about 6 times in recent days. In only 1 instance was it required that it was discussed (res locked aliens...few greens needed it pointed out), in all cases the games where over with 0 chance of a comeback (unless all bar 1 player on other team disco'd). The auto-balance still causes the same unintended issue and the solution is still there and simple enough to put in.
I look at it like this: Concede is designed to end games which are being drawn out unnecessarily. Auto team balance is intended to balance games in which the players still want to play the round out.
There is little sense in limiting the effectiveness of the one in order to cover something that is meant to be addressed by the other. When you try to dilute the purpose of something like that, it becomes entirely less effective at what it is meant to be doing. In my opinion anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2064124:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:11 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 21 2013, 05:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Within a minute, the teams were even again"? No, they were always even, thanks to the respawn restriction. The teams were fair, and you lost the fight. Don't grope for excuses. Engaged and beaten, simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Strofix, please leave your pointlessly abrasive tone at the door. It doesn't help discussions at all. Refer to sotanaht's response to my post (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125933&view=findpost&p=2064143" target="_blank">here</a>) for a far more appropriate response, saying the same thing.
I never said that our team *shouldn't* have lost - it was (as it turns out) a rubbish server and no amount of encouraging people to work together and teamplay would actually get these guys to do anything useful. Out of 12 people on my team, 3 of us had microphones, and the other two were steam friends of mine. We did our best, and I ended up top of the team by a long way, and almost top of the server. Ridiculous, on a team that was getting drubbed.
So I resent the 'holier than thou' or 'I know it all' attitude with which you responded. You weren't there and have no position from which to sum up the game. You wouldn't respond to someone in real life like that... Please tell me you're not one of <i>those</i> people!
Back on topic and to reiterate what I said before, Autobalance IS still better than autoswitch (either while alive or when dead, in a variety of other games), and I appreciate that there are cases where the need exists. However, in my experience, it usually only kicks in during the last turtle or the last hive push when the game is definitely already won.
Is it worth needlessly extending 10 games to give the chance of 1 game being slightly fairer? I think that's the real question behind this topic.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This system is intended to conserve the balance in a game which is as of yet undecided<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If it's designed to do so, but affects others parts of the game as well - the system is flawed and should not be used until fixed. And ffs, less players does not mean weaker taem. It's usually newbs who quit. I have no problems taking out 3 rines as a skulk. In fact, I'd be glad if we could play 6v8 with me in smaller team. Autobalance kicks in when clearly not needed - ruined game for some of the players.
It's a pub game, pub, pub, pub. I join it to play for sometime after hard work, not to watch how others are playing. Seeing how noobs on my team are not able to finish the hive or node that I brought to 5% is damn frustrating, while I could just ran back in 15 seconds and end it all, they are too scared to step forward for a sec. But no, people already left seeing how I brought that hive nearly to death and now I can't spawn.
In fact, you only need 2 friends in your tam to actually abuse the system. You kill 2 best players from the opossing team and insta F4. Pros can't spawn, easy win. It really can be abused that way.
Seems pretty counter intuitive, a team drops 2-4 people over a min or so and it's obvious they will lose the game, you want to get into the hive, shoot down eggs and finish it quickly but if you bingle it and die you'll be waiting in some extended queue of 1+ min before respawning.
So it leads to marines play cautiously and trying their best not to die...the opposite of finishing the game.
Also, becoming a huge ######ing hater of the concede option, it's not really being used to it's intents and purpose of ending drawn out games and moreso "###### it we're back down to 1-2 hives can't be arsed playing it's been 30 mins gg" which is frustrating for the winning team, especially on comeback games when you're denied the pleasure of shooting down every last hive and gorge and kharaa filth from the map, it denies Exterminatus.
That mod someone suggested earlier about concede making it so aliens do no dmg and marines have a 1-2 min count down to rush into the hive/s and shoot them down sounds a lot more fun than "Marines Win" and sitting in the RR with most of the team asking what the ###### just happened.
<!--quoteo(post=2064048:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But that's what it does<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice quoting out of context. Autobalance is there to balance the players. It makes you sit for a reason. It's unfortunate, but that's what it takes, because other possible systems that accomplish this task are either worse or outright silly.
<!--quoteo(post=2064048:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody leaves in competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And yet you're complaining about it? Even pug games are a competition; it's two teams competing to win. It IS a competitive game, and as I said before, competitions need rules to enforce fair play.
<!--quoteo(post=2064048:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it's default. Like internet explorer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's easily changeable if it annoys people that much. I'll tell you the real reason why nearly all servers use it: <b>because it's a good system and server admins recognize this.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=2064048:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And other 2 found themselves unable to play because of power outage of two other people... uh, wow. Nice punishment for somethine that is not your fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's sad, but necessary to preserve fair play. If you really can't wrap your head around this concept, there's not much of a point trying to explain it to you.
<!--quoteo(post=2045094:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:17 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 13 2012, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can barely recall a server that doesn't have it.
Also, how about the players that left, never leave? How about they stay so I don't have to be punished for them leaving?
This feature sounds exactly like something that would happen in Harrison Bergeron. HRUNNN I CAN'T HAVE FUN SO NEITHER CAN YOU<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most servers have it because, what a shock, it's one of the better auto-balance features around. Hard to imagine in a world where people love to ###### about everything, I know.
Suggest a viable alternative if you don't like it. I either switch teams or go make some tea if I can't spawn because of auto-balance. It works quite well, I have won plenty of 6v8 games thanks to it.
<!--quoteo(post=2064120:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:05 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 21 2013, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... but we were overwhelmed by the last remaining skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you think you should have been allowed to have 2 players more on the field to help you get the edge of your opposition? In what universe's sport is that a fair tactic? I'm sorry but what you have described is auto-balance working perfectly. i.e. in brief periods of team numbers being different, it doesn't ruin the entire round by swinging it to the team with more numbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2064189:date=Jan 21 2013, 09:32 PM:name=Xao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xao @ Jan 21 2013, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->especially on comeback games when you're denied the pleasure of shooting down every last hive and gorge and kharaa filth from the map, it denies Exterminatus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might surprise you, but being an alien with no or few upgrades and being insta gibbed repeatedly for the last 5-15mins of a round you know you lost isn't much fun. Most people will either F4, leave the server or vote concede in that situation. I do't like playing out as marine in turtle mode either, but it's far less annoying than being a zero upgrade skulk vs W3 A3 jet packing shot gunners who kill you over and over and never make much of a push on the hive.
I have noticed a lot less mass F4's (often which used to cause the server to die completely) and a lot more concede votes lately and I think it is a good thing.
The 3 options I see for auto-balance are: 1. Current system 2. TF2 style swap the last joined system 3. No auto-balance. Allows 8vs6 or even 8vs2.
All of them have their flaws, but overall I think the current system is the least annoying. I would like to see people kicked more swiftly from the ready room though, as people sometimes F4 still way too early and then sit there for 10minutes or longer in what can still be a good game. The TF2 style swapping would drive you nuts in a game where you were saving res (unless you kept your res?) but then you would also bring with you to the other team all of the info on your former team. Where upgrades are etc. No auto-balance kills servers very quickly and just wastes everyone's time who joins the server and sees that every one is on one team.
Actually, TF2 swaps the next player to die when the teams are unbalanced, not the latest player to join. I should know, I replaced that system with a NS2 auto balance clone!
<!--quoteo(post=2064148:date=Jan 21 2013, 03:06 AM:name=bERt0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bERt0r @ Jan 21 2013, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064148"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly because pub play is meant for casual fun, I dont understand why the winning team gets punished if the other team F4s. Because certainly, getting punished for making your enemy give up is not fun. The problem is, that the aggressive marines get punished and the ######s sitting back in base stay alive while the aliens take the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does end up hurting the winning team, through a light handicap. It doesn't destroy a winning team. If marines are doing well and aliens are leaving, marines should be able to continue doing well. If people are sitting in base to stay alive, it's up to the comm to tell them to get out of base, or they will lose map control.
To be honest, if a team is dominating, due to a few great/aggressive players, those players should be able to survive a lot longer than any unskilled base camper.
<!--quoteo(post=2064184:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:18 AM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 21 2013, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's designed to do so, but affects others parts of the game as well - the system is flawed and should not be used until fixed. And ffs, less players does not mean weaker taem. It's usually newbs who quit. I have no problems taking out 3 rines as a skulk. In fact, I'd be glad if we could play 6v8 with me in smaller team. Autobalance kicks in when clearly not needed - ruined game for some of the players.
It's a pub game, pub, pub, pub. I join it to play for sometime after hard work, not to watch how others are playing. Seeing how noobs on my team are not able to finish the hive or node that I brought to 5% is damn frustrating, while I could just ran back in 15 seconds and end it all, they are too scared to step forward for a sec. But no, people already left seeing how I brought that hive nearly to death and now I can't spawn.
In fact, you only need 2 friends in your tam to actually abuse the system. You kill 2 best players from the opossing team and insta F4. Pros can't spawn, easy win. It really can be abused that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Less players does make the team weaker. That's less players to roam the map, team up, or for defense. If you take out auto balance, more games will be decided by the first 2 minutes. If players don't think it's going well, they'll F4/disconnect/bounce to another server.
Also, while it could possibly be abused, it's unlikely the "pro" will be out for very long. Also, two players leaving, to stop an opposing "pro" from spawning, leaves their team weaker.
Comments
But that's what it does
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game is competitive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody leaves in competitive games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is, strangely enough, quite rare; I wonder why that is?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it's default. Like internet explorer.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being 2 players down for any amount of time is enormously detrimental in NS2, for either team. So my team should lose because two people found themselves unable to play due to, say, a sudden power outage<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And other 2 found themselves unable to play because of power outage of two other people... uh, wow. Nice punishment for somethine that is not your fault.
Or: Alright, we're down by a lot. The 4/10 bottom players hit F4 so the pro players can rape their team.
I could see the Auto-balance team mechanic being abused this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could be, but there is a risk attached due to the auto-forfeit if one too many people f4. Takes coordination and ruthlessness that pubs generally lack and would be banned in anything serious anyway. Actually the autobalance itself wouldn't be included in anything serious.
Had an 80 min game during the weekend where the poor ever suffering alien com built 9 hives, the marines must have spent untold res on arcs and scans, there was even one point where the aliens had zero grown hives and zero eggs, their com couldn't even spawn.
Aliens won though, so there is always hope!
Or: Alright, we're down by a lot. The 4/10 bottom players hit F4 so the pro players can rape their team.
I could see the Auto-balance team mechanic being abused this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mutter mutter...had not thought of doing that...could be a great way to minimise the loss of your onos.
And when I have the auto balance wait for a long time (in a winning team) it's always because my team mates won't die. In other words: they are too good/well equipped/upgraded for the enemy to kill them. So why should I spawn to make it even worse for the enemy?
What I want to say: when you are winning, end the game quickly and don't bother to pummel your foes to eternity - they might F4 and make it worse for yourself.
Would more winning teams play like that (in other words: "ATTACK THE FRIGGIN POWER NODE!!!") on pubs, auto balance wouldn't be a problem.
<!--quoteo(post=2063712:date=Jan 20 2013, 08:39 AM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My team wins most of the games I'm in. I'm always applying tactics that annoy the hell out of the other team, tactics that are hard to deal with (bile from vents, ninja phasegates), ruining their economy by all means possible, being generally aggressive. I'm usually at the top of the scoreboard because I'm killing so much structures, tho my K:D ratio is way below 1 (I taunt after every kill as well, which I know sets some butts on fire). I contribute too much to my team, I annoy too much of the other team, no wonder they are leaving. But being aggressive means you will have to die a lot. And this means you will be forced to spectate some parts of the most matches you are in. I'm spectating waaaay too much because I'm too good at making other team lose. Wow, nice 'balance'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's exactly the kind of player behaviour/play style that could benefit the losing (lesser player) team if you switched to them... ever thought about that?
additionally, it may be even more fun for you to win against the team that would have won through your actions (as you stated). in other words: you could beat yourself. this should be a promising challenge, shouldn't it? ;)
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4cHeEvbjDKg"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4cHeEvbjDKg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I’m going to assume that when people think auto-team balance is meant to keep the teams fair, those people just started playing games and don’t have a clue what skill is. Forced team balance is nothing but an annoyance and slows the end of the game down.
I’m going to assume that when people think auto-team balance is meant to keep the teams fair, those people just started playing games and don’t have a clue what skill is. Forced team balance is nothing but an annoyance and slows the end of the game down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again you assume the game is over. And once again, this mechanic is not meant to save games that are already over, but to prevent good games that are not yet decided from being ruined.
The idea of "slowing the end of the game down" is completely null and void now. As if F4ing wasn't enough, many servers now implement the surrender function, which takes care of that. Why do you expect that the autobalance should be seeking to solve a problem which is already addressed elsewhere in the game?
a) You pretty much always get instagibbed as alien. Getting killed out of nowhere without even knowing what happened is very frustrating.
b) The alien spawn system; it has the same function as the autobalance. Getting egglocked is annoying, even more annoying is sitting in your egg and get killed.
This is ironic because it is easier for the aliens to make a comeback than for the marines (the longer a game lasts, the more an alien victory is likely - look at ns2stats for evidence).
Within a minute, the teams were even again, and aliens had the entire map. It was a large server, and unfortunately the 2 of us on my team at the top were carrying a lot of dead weight: people not communicating and unable to shoot. The alien team wasn't much better, to be fair, but with cowardly marines we were doomed after that nano loss. I tried to muster some action to take a hive, but it wasn't long before it turned into a large server turtlefest. K:D ratios were better for the marines than the aliens, who were idiotically running in alone as onos/gorge/skulk and in the end someone jumped in the comm chair and recycled everything without asking the team. Very annoying game overall - it would have been a close game (probably still a marine loss, but hey we'll never know) had we not been gimped for the 30s we needed reinforcements.
Lesson 1: don't join large servers (I thought I'd give 24p a go again... big mistake)
Lesson 2: Autobalance isn't perfect: it can screw you over at the most critical time in the game.
With that said, it's a LOT better than being autoswitched in other games. On the whole, I think it could do with a tweak or two - but quite what tweaks I'm not sure. Autobalance kicking in during the final stage of the game is ridiculous, too - it does hamper teams from finishing quickly. I'd rather games were finished properly rather than conceded, but at least the option to concede is now there and pubbers are learning about it.
TL;DR: Anecdote about 1 game in which autobalance contributed heavily to marine loss. Autoswitch not all bad, but could use some improvement in certain situations.
"Within a minute, the teams were even again"? No, they were always even, thanks to the respawn restriction. The teams were fair, and you lost the fight. Don't grope for excuses. Engaged and beaten, simple as that.
The autoteambalance also has the problem that sometimes a 8 vs 6 fight would actually be fair because the team of 6 have better players (and are op aliens). Edit, so even strofix understands it: Autoteambalance does not allow such matchups even though it could be fun and the players would like to play like that.
So now it is meant to correct inherent skill imbalances between the teams as well? Is this team balancer supposed to be the answer to every problem the game has or something? I get the feeling you guys are either expecting too much from it, or you are blaming everything on it in an attempt to validate your point of view.
Aliens have a 60% win rate over marines, could the auto balance be to blame?
I don't understand how this is big deal. If the losing teams players are leaving, turning on auto-balance, the winning team is still in a great position.
If a top player, on the winning team, is stuck waiting for someone to die, then it's balanced by how well their teammates are playing; if they aren't very good, the top player will be back sooner.
Within a minute, the teams were even again, and aliens had the entire map. It was a large server, and unfortunately the 2 of us on my team at the top were carrying a lot of dead weight: people not communicating and unable to shoot. The alien team wasn't much better, to be fair, but with cowardly marines we were doomed after that nano loss. I tried to muster some action to take a hive, but it wasn't long before it turned into a large server turtlefest. K:D ratios were better for the marines than the aliens, who were idiotically running in alone as onos/gorge/skulk and in the end someone jumped in the comm chair and recycled everything without asking the team. Very annoying game overall - it would have been a close game (probably still a marine loss, but hey we'll never know) had we not been gimped for the 30s we needed reinforcements.
Lesson 1: don't join large servers (I thought I'd give 24p a go again... big mistake)
Lesson 2: Autobalance isn't perfect: it can screw you over at the most critical time in the game.
With that said, it's a LOT better than being autoswitched in other games. On the whole, I think it could do with a tweak or two - but quite what tweaks I'm not sure. Autobalance kicking in during the final stage of the game is ridiculous, too - it does hamper teams from finishing quickly. I'd rather games were finished properly rather than conceded, but at least the option to concede is now there and pubbers are learning about it.
TL;DR: Anecdote about 1 game in which autobalance contributed heavily to marine loss. Autoswitch not all bad, but could use some improvement in certain situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try to keep in mind that if you are getting locked out for autobalance, the other team is down at least 2 players as well. That "last skulk" could just as well been 3 skulks or even 2 higher lifeforms and a skulk if people hadn't have left.
The problem is, that the aggressive marines get punished and the ######s sitting back in base stay alive while the aliens take the map.
It's a lot better than getting switched to the losing team when you die, I can tell you that from experience in other games. I'll wait 30 sex any day to not get switched to a crappy team (often without the ability to switch back even if numbers allow - hated that in BFBC2).
With the surrender vote finally implemented, there is no reason why anyone should be idling in the ready room though. Play on admined servers where idlers are either automatically or manually kicked.
The mechanic is meant to stop the issue when players leave or being disco'd, it is not intended to drag out the result of a game due to players f4'ing.
This, IMO, is illustrated by the fact we now have a concede vote (so if your f4'ing your simply causing grief for winning side), so its not compulsary to f4 if you want to make the game end.
Dont want to spawn and die...then simply go grab a drink, stop at the toilet (say hi to parents/flatmates..loved ones), this will ensure the other team is not handicapped and some of the other team cant spawn.
This is why people should count as being on the team they left for auto-balancing purposes. That way if you f4 you WILL BE SPEEDING up the end game.
Currently your are prolonging it by f4'ing and having auto-balance kick in.
The fix here is simple, no one wants to drag out a dead game...heck I have seen the concede vote enabled about 6 times in recent days. In only 1 instance was it required that it was discussed (res locked aliens...few greens needed it pointed out), in all cases the games where over with 0 chance of a comeback (unless all bar 1 player on other team disco'd).
The auto-balance still causes the same unintended issue and the solution is still there and simple enough to put in.
I look at it like this:
Concede is designed to end games which are being drawn out unnecessarily.
Auto team balance is intended to balance games in which the players still want to play the round out.
There is little sense in limiting the effectiveness of the one in order to cover something that is meant to be addressed by the other. When you try to dilute the purpose of something like that, it becomes entirely less effective at what it is meant to be doing. In my opinion anyway.
Strofix, please leave your pointlessly abrasive tone at the door. It doesn't help discussions at all. Refer to sotanaht's response to my post (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125933&view=findpost&p=2064143" target="_blank">here</a>) for a far more appropriate response, saying the same thing.
I never said that our team *shouldn't* have lost - it was (as it turns out) a rubbish server and no amount of encouraging people to work together and teamplay would actually get these guys to do anything useful. Out of 12 people on my team, 3 of us had microphones, and the other two were steam friends of mine. We did our best, and I ended up top of the team by a long way, and almost top of the server. Ridiculous, on a team that was getting drubbed.
So I resent the 'holier than thou' or 'I know it all' attitude with which you responded. You weren't there and have no position from which to sum up the game. You wouldn't respond to someone in real life like that... Please tell me you're not one of <i>those</i> people!
Back on topic and to reiterate what I said before, Autobalance IS still better than autoswitch (either while alive or when dead, in a variety of other games), and I appreciate that there are cases where the need exists. However, in my experience, it usually only kicks in during the last turtle or the last hive push when the game is definitely already won.
Is it worth needlessly extending 10 games to give the chance of 1 game being slightly fairer? I think that's the real question behind this topic.
If it's designed to do so, but affects others parts of the game as well - the system is flawed and should not be used until fixed.
And ffs, less players does not mean weaker taem. It's usually newbs who quit. I have no problems taking out 3 rines as a skulk. In fact, I'd be glad if we could play 6v8 with me in smaller team.
Autobalance kicks in when clearly not needed - ruined game for some of the players.
It's a pub game, pub, pub, pub. I join it to play for sometime after hard work, not to watch how others are playing. Seeing how noobs on my team are not able to finish the hive or node that I brought to 5% is damn frustrating, while I could just ran back in 15 seconds and end it all, they are too scared to step forward for a sec. But no, people already left seeing how I brought that hive nearly to death and now I can't spawn.
In fact, you only need 2 friends in your tam to actually abuse the system. You kill 2 best players from the opossing team and insta F4. Pros can't spawn, easy win. It really can be abused that way.
So it leads to marines play cautiously and trying their best not to die...the opposite of finishing the game.
Also, becoming a huge ######ing hater of the concede option, it's not really being used to it's intents and purpose of ending drawn out games and moreso "###### it we're back down to 1-2 hives can't be arsed playing it's been 30 mins gg" which is frustrating for the winning team, especially on comeback games when you're denied the pleasure of shooting down every last hive and gorge and kharaa filth from the map, it denies Exterminatus.
That mod someone suggested earlier about concede making it so aliens do no dmg and marines have a 1-2 min count down to rush into the hive/s and shoot them down sounds a lot more fun than "Marines Win" and sitting in the RR with most of the team asking what the ###### just happened.
Nice quoting out of context. Autobalance is there to balance the players. It makes you sit for a reason. It's unfortunate, but that's what it takes, because other possible systems that accomplish this task are either worse or outright silly.
<!--quoteo(post=2064048:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody leaves in competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And yet you're complaining about it? Even pug games are a competition; it's two teams competing to win. It IS a competitive game, and as I said before, competitions need rules to enforce fair play.
<!--quoteo(post=2064048:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it's default. Like internet explorer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's easily changeable if it annoys people that much. I'll tell you the real reason why nearly all servers use it: <b>because it's a good system and server admins recognize this.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=2064048:date=Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 20 2013, 09:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064048"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And other 2 found themselves unable to play because of power outage of two other people... uh, wow. Nice punishment for somethine that is not your fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's sad, but necessary to preserve fair play. If you really can't wrap your head around this concept, there's not much of a point trying to explain it to you.
Also, how about the players that left, never leave? How about they stay so I don't have to be punished for them leaving?
This feature sounds exactly like something that would happen in Harrison Bergeron. HRUNNN I CAN'T HAVE FUN SO NEITHER CAN YOU<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most servers have it because, what a shock, it's one of the better auto-balance features around. Hard to imagine in a world where people love to ###### about everything, I know.
So you think you should have been allowed to have 2 players more on the field to help you get the edge of your opposition? In what universe's sport is that a fair tactic? I'm sorry but what you have described is auto-balance working perfectly. i.e. in brief periods of team numbers being different, it doesn't ruin the entire round by swinging it to the team with more numbers.
<!--quoteo(post=2064189:date=Jan 21 2013, 09:32 PM:name=Xao)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xao @ Jan 21 2013, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064189"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->especially on comeback games when you're denied the pleasure of shooting down every last hive and gorge and kharaa filth from the map, it denies Exterminatus.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might surprise you, but being an alien with no or few upgrades and being insta gibbed repeatedly for the last 5-15mins of a round you know you lost isn't much fun. Most people will either F4, leave the server or vote concede in that situation. I do't like playing out as marine in turtle mode either, but it's far less annoying than being a zero upgrade skulk vs W3 A3 jet packing shot gunners who kill you over and over and never make much of a push on the hive.
I have noticed a lot less mass F4's (often which used to cause the server to die completely) and a lot more concede votes lately and I think it is a good thing.
The 3 options I see for auto-balance are:
1. Current system
2. TF2 style swap the last joined system
3. No auto-balance. Allows 8vs6 or even 8vs2.
All of them have their flaws, but overall I think the current system is the least annoying. I would like to see people kicked more swiftly from the ready room though, as people sometimes F4 still way too early and then sit there for 10minutes or longer in what can still be a good game.
The TF2 style swapping would drive you nuts in a game where you were saving res (unless you kept your res?) but then you would also bring with you to the other team all of the info on your former team. Where upgrades are etc.
No auto-balance kills servers very quickly and just wastes everyone's time who joins the server and sees that every one is on one team.
The problem is, that the aggressive marines get punished and the ######s sitting back in base stay alive while the aliens take the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does end up hurting the winning team, through a light handicap. It doesn't destroy a winning team. If marines are doing well and aliens are leaving, marines should be able to continue doing well. If people are sitting in base to stay alive, it's up to the comm to tell them to get out of base, or they will lose map control.
To be honest, if a team is dominating, due to a few great/aggressive players, those players should be able to survive a lot longer than any unskilled base camper.
<!--quoteo(post=2064184:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:18 AM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 21 2013, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's designed to do so, but affects others parts of the game as well - the system is flawed and should not be used until fixed.
And ffs, less players does not mean weaker taem. It's usually newbs who quit. I have no problems taking out 3 rines as a skulk. In fact, I'd be glad if we could play 6v8 with me in smaller team.
Autobalance kicks in when clearly not needed - ruined game for some of the players.
It's a pub game, pub, pub, pub. I join it to play for sometime after hard work, not to watch how others are playing. Seeing how noobs on my team are not able to finish the hive or node that I brought to 5% is damn frustrating, while I could just ran back in 15 seconds and end it all, they are too scared to step forward for a sec. But no, people already left seeing how I brought that hive nearly to death and now I can't spawn.
In fact, you only need 2 friends in your tam to actually abuse the system. You kill 2 best players from the opossing team and insta F4. Pros can't spawn, easy win. It really can be abused that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Less players does make the team weaker. That's less players to roam the map, team up, or for defense. If you take out auto balance, more games will be decided by the first 2 minutes. If players don't think it's going well, they'll F4/disconnect/bounce to another server.
Also, while it could possibly be abused, it's unlikely the "pro" will be out for very long. Also, two players leaving, to stop an opposing "pro" from spawning, leaves their team weaker.