<!--quoteo(post=2044824:date=Dec 13 2012, 04:43 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's no obligation to stay in the game for any reason. If you don't like your commanders voice, leave the game. I might think you're a jerk for it, but you're not REQUIRED to stay. Why should my team be punished because one of the players chooses to leave for whatever reason? If I have a chance to win the game, and I want to play it out, then let me try to win the game.
Or is the issue just that you want to have the game over quicker when you personally F4 to screw your team over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you read what I wrote?
What I outlined is that the autobalance is intended to stop sides getting uneven due to disco's or people leaving but NOT for people deciding a games over and causing grief to winning side. It should not kick in because they f4'd and went into RR....in those instances they should still be counted on the side they left and as such the autobalance does not kick in. I am sick of being stuck in games unable to spawn because we started to win and 2-3 people on other side f4'd. They screw over not only their team mates but also the other side with how it kicks in now.
If 3 of your team F4 and refuse to rejoin then apparently the game is already over, so causing the winning side to sit there not acrruing res simply draws out a game that is already lost. It also ruins the gaming experience for the same number of people on the winning side, its was always very much the dummy spit...now its a case of taking your bat and ball and going home. This is one of the lamest parts of the game, that a couple of people can ruin a game for both sides. Its terrible to not be able to spawn after a 30 min long game to partake in the final alien assault because people on the other side f4'd.
Now if they LEAVE the server and rage quit fair enough...but they have also lost their spot on the server so someone who wants to play can join. By going into the RR they stop someone else joining the server who <u>might want to help you fight it out</u>. I hate people f4'ing and recycling and I almost always stick it out...but sadly others out there are not of the same ilk and recycle or f4 at the drop of a hat.
When this happens to me, I take a look at the minimap, note positions, then switch sides. I then proceed to use the info I stole to try to even the scales. Usually, this just delays things and the team still loses, but I still feel good because I know the contributions I made to the other team before I switched helped them win, and by my switching that's one less spot for someone to be stuck in Auto-balance respawn hell. On rare occasions, the team makes a comeback and then I feel really good. It's almost never because I single-handedly turned the battle around, but I still like to think I helped to stage the comeback.
<!--quoteo(post=2044832:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:21 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 13 2012, 01:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044832"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you read what I wrote?
What I outlined is that the autobalance is intended to stop sides getting uneven due to disco's or people leaving but NOT for people deciding a games over and causing grief to winning side. It should not kick in because they f4'd and went into RR....in those instances they should still be counted on the side they left and as such the autobalance does not kick in. I am sick of being stuck in games unable to spawn because we started to win and 2-3 people on other side f4'd. They screw over not only their team mates but also the other side with how it kicks in now.
If 3 of your team F4 and refuse to rejoin then apparently the game is already over, so causing the winning side to sit there not acrruing res simply draws out a game that is already lost. It also ruins the gaming experience for the same number of people on the winning side, its was always very much the dummy spit...now its a case of taking your bat and ball and going home. This is one of the lamest parts of the game, that a couple of people can ruin a game for both sides. Its terrible to not be able to spawn after a 30 min long game to partake in the final alien assault because people on the other side f4'd.
Now if they LEAVE the server and rage quit fair enough...but they have also lost their spot on the server so someone who wants to play can join. By going into the RR they stop someone else joining the server who <u>might want to help you fight it out</u>. I hate people f4'ing and recycling and I almost always stick it out...but sadly others out there are not of the same ilk and recycle or f4 at the drop of a hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I have a 12 v 12 game, and 3 people "decide the game is over" but the rest of the team has not decided the game is over, then the team has not conceded defeat. The concede "vote" does not have an acceptable majority. and thus the players who have not conceded defeat should not be punished for the concession of the player they share no relation to aside from getting stuck on the same team. If the last 9 want to play the game out, they should not be forced to take a disadvantage because 3 players on their team chose to be jerks about the situation. If they agreed with those players, and therefore deserved the more expedited loss, they would have F4ed also.
Additionally, F4 does not always entail concession of defeat. Sometimes I F4 because I have to take a ######, or my family needs help with something and I know it will be 5 minutes before I'll be back. Better the Pres I was earning go to players who are actually in the game, and the opposing team doesn't get the unfair advantage of the extra player while I sit AFK.
I don't mind changing teams if that would give a chance for the losers to make a comeback. But what i do hate is that if i switch teams, i will lose all my P-res above 20. So i won't be able to get any good weapons or higher life forms for a while to help turn the tide for the other team.
Hate to say it but there was a good counter for this back when I played cs go. They need a type of casual and competitive matchmaking in addition to normal server browser. A competitive NS2 game mode with matchmaking would ensure that leavers would not be tolerated as there would be no ready room to enter. Should they leave, they would be banned for a period of time from the competitive game mode only and ONLY competitive. The more they rage quit the more the ban goes up to months if need be. They can still play public/casual and what not but at least they will not muck up serious games. Of course 3-5 mins should be allowed to reconnect in case the game crashes. I thought it would not work but there were so many whiners on the cs go forums saying how the game mode was broken and they were unfairly banned when the devs brought up his entire rage quit history and how he left everytime he died consistently or his team was losing. It does actually work even if it sounds harsh. Just saying I see no problem as people would still have options to normal servers and casual matchmaking while srs guys would play srs.
The idea behind this system is good and I can understand the people that defend this mechanic. But I question the value of this system. I know how the games were in beta, before this system. But ask yourself, how many games has this system turned around? And how many games has it simply stretched. How often was it useful? How often has it prolonged turtles?
I don't think this system is wrong in general. It is a good idea, but I think a much more forgiving system would be, to increase the spawn times of the team with more people. I don't know a number yet but something around 2 - 5 seconds per player difference seems enough. It doesn't create spawn-times from more than a minute (what I think the main concern of the people here is) and it won't change the probability of getting a fair game much from what we have now.
<b>TL;DR: A better system would be, to increase the spawn times of the team with more people.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=2044690:date=Dec 12 2012, 11:36 PM:name=Emoo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Emoo @ Dec 12 2012, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeh when auto-balance kicks in it's normally annoying. Early in the game you don't always mind switching teams, but late game you just want the game to finish. Tracking f4 as still on the team for auto-balance purposes would probably solve it (maybe with a timer of ~2 minutes, for those who got back to ready room while they get lunch or something).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I'm now thinking this might of been a bit of a knee-jerk idea. The ideal auto-balance would let everyone play while not disadvantaging the smaller team. And if everyone's still playing you could activate auto-balance even in the off by one games (eg 8 v 7).
Maybe a percentage damage+health boost like suggested earlier? Maybe a scale depending on team size that only effects the smaller team (so your never debuffed), scale = (enemy team size)/(our team size), so in 8v7 the 7 team skulks would have 80 hp, 11 armor and 85 damage instead of 70, 10 and 75. I they were marines they would have 114 hp, 34 armor and 11 AR dmg. Crazy idea but it give an automatic handicap to the smaller team, keeps everyone in game, and can even be applied to off by one teams. Still isn't perfect I don't think any system will be.
<!--quoteo(post=2044865:date=Dec 13 2012, 08:25 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I have a 12 v 12 game, and 3 people "decide the game is over" but the rest of the team has not decided the game is over, then the team has not conceded defeat. The concede "vote" does not have an acceptable majority. and thus the players who have not conceded defeat should not be punished for the concession of the player they share no relation to aside from getting stuck on the same team. If the last 9 want to play the game out, they should not be forced to take a disadvantage because 3 players on their team chose to be jerks about the situation. If they agreed with those players, and therefore deserved the more expedited loss, they would have F4ed also.
Additionally, F4 does not always entail concession of defeat. Sometimes I F4 because I have to take a ######, or my family needs help with something and I know it will be 5 minutes before I'll be back. Better the Pres I was earning go to players who are actually in the game, and the opposing team doesn't get the unfair advantage of the extra player while I sit AFK.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If 3 people chuck a wobbly and dummy spit why should the winning side be penalised? I am sorry but everything possible needs to be done to discourage people f4'ing. Penalising the side who have won the map is a bad mechanic and very frustrating. What it is intended to do and what it does are two different things. It does not stop your side having kids who spit the dummy and f4 if they dont get a special build order, instead it just makes people on other team sit out and watch the game.
If you chose to go take a dump or something else why should another player on the other team also have to sit out? This is your choice to sit in the RR not his to sit unable to spawn.
Sorry but the mechanic is broken, it does not work as a way of ensuring an even game just drawing out games that are over. I have sat waiting to spawn too often due to people not willing to play out matches to think its just a passing fad.
I am sorry but if you have to go AFK so be it...thats a tough break for your side...no reason to penalise the other side for your weak bladder. Sitting in the RR is poor form, leave the server and let someone who wants to play to join in the interim.
I never switch teams and it doesn't matter if I'm on the losing team or not. This feature is ridiculous and I never play on servers that have it enabled if I can avoid it.
<!--quoteo(post=2044921:date=Dec 13 2012, 07:18 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 13 2012, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2044921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If 3 people chuck a wobbly and dummy spit why should the winning side be penalised? I am sorry but everything possible needs to be done to discourage people f4'ing. Penalising the side who have won the map is a bad mechanic and very frustrating. What it is intended to do and what it does are two different things. It does not stop your side having kids who spit the dummy and f4 if they dont get a special build order, instead it just makes people on other team sit out and watch the game.
If you chose to go take a dump or something else why should another player on the other team also have to sit out? This is your choice to sit in the RR not his to sit unable to spawn.
Sorry but the mechanic is broken, it does not work as a way of ensuring an even game just drawing out games that are over. I have sat waiting to spawn too often due to people not willing to play out matches to think its just a passing fad.
I am sorry but if you have to go AFK so be it...thats a tough break for your side...no reason to penalise the other side for your weak bladder. Sitting in the RR is poor form, leave the server and let someone who wants to play to join in the interim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because having them on the map is making the game unfair for the opposing team, who is doing their best to win as well. The game might be a foregone conclusion at 12 v 9 if all 12 players are on the map, but the 9 players are very much still in the game if the maximum number of players the opposing team can field is 10.
It doesn't "penalize" the winning team. The team with the higher player count hasn't done anything to secure the victory. It just has a higher player count. The opposing team isn't innately "losing" because they are down players. As long as players on the opposing team want to play out the game, they have the right to as fair a match as possible. You don't ever deserve X number of F4s because you killed Y number of RTs, there's absolutely no developer control in mechanics like that, it's innately unfair if in one match I can be a "losing" team because 2 players on my team don't like craig first hive, where as another I don't lose players at all throughout the entire match, regardless of losing all our RTs and our second hive. My team may have earned the disadvantage, but they have not earned some arbitrary number of rage quits, that we deserve to lose because of.
Unbalanced player counts are a real issue, it does break the game, and this is a beautiful solution for that that puts the power in the hands of the player. If you WANT to switch teams to even things up, fine, that's wonderful, if you don't for what ever reason, that's also fine, the game is still fair. I far prefer this solution than the team switch plugins we had in NS1. It was TONNES of fun to have your dedicated fade forced to team swap because he was the last player to join the team.
Honestly, you all against this mechanic seem really scummy to me. I have a REALLY hard time reading this as anything but "I don't want the game to be fair, I just want to spawn as fast as possible". It's really gross. You should care more about the game than the "fun lost" by having to spectate a little bit. It's extremely selfish. What about the fun of every player on the other team? You might have a rationalization for it, but you're just wrong. It's ABSOLUTELY NOT fun to be forced to lose a game you're desperately fighting for because you're down players. It's FAR more frustrating to be penalized with a loss for doing nothing wrong at all, than to be penalized with a bit of delay time for the 'sin' of being on the team that has too many players.
<!--quoteo(post=2045044:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, you all against this mechanic seem really scummy to me. I have a REALLY hard time reading this as anything but "I don't want the game to be fair, I just want to spawn as fast as possible". It's really gross. You should care more about the game than the "fun lost" by having to spectate a little bit. It's extremely selfish. What about the fun of every player on the other team? You might have a rationalization for it, but you're just wrong. It's ABSOLUTELY NOT fun to be forced to lose a game you're desperately fighting for because you're down players. It's FAR more frustrating to be penalized with a loss for doing nothing wrong at all, than to be penalized with a bit of delay time for the 'sin' of being on the team that has too many players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can I get an Amen?
This attitude of "they ruined my win by 'f4ing a truly lost game' and we didn't get to keep them cornered in their base while we research every available upgrade" is also an extension of this. Winning isn't enough; people have to "lol pwn" people.
<!--quoteo(post=2045044:date=Dec 13 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't "penalize" the winning team. The team with the higher player count hasn't done anything to secure the victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, they have. Their players are still there. Most of the time they have been winning and usually have made the enemy team rage or F4. Being ignorant of that fact just makes you look like the biggest idiot.
Since a game is about being able to actually do stuff, rather than just winning, let's look at some stupid ideas, because they're smarter than what you're saying:
If I stay in a game and never get a chance to spawn because of autobalance and I win, should I be happy? Should I be forced to change teams just because some loser F4'd? Or am I just going to ######ing leave because autobalance in NS2 is the stupidest ######ing autoabalance I've ever seen?
If I buy a game, I bought it just to win, right? I shouldn't actually try to play, I should just go into a game and join a team that is stomping so hard, spawn for 5 seconds, die, and AFK while my team wins? ###### no stupid you bought a game to play it not to ######ing sit around.
<!--quoteo(post=2045050:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:40 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 13 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea, they have. Their players are still there. Most of the time they have been winning and usually have made the enemy team rage or F4. Being ignorant of that fact just makes you look like the biggest idiot.
Since a game is about being able to actually do stuff, rather than just winning, let's look at some stupid ideas, because they're smarter than what you're saying:
If I stay in a game and never get a chance to spawn because of autobalance and I win, should I be happy? Should I be forced to change teams just because some loser F4'd? Or am I just going to ######ing leave because autobalance in NS2 is the stupidest ######ing autoabalance I've ever seen?
If I buy a game, I bought it just to win, right? I shouldn't actually try to play, I should just go into a game and join a team that is stomping so hard, spawn for 5 seconds, die, and AFK while my team wins? ###### no stupid you bought a game to play it not to ######ing sit around.
Autobalance: Worse than devour<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being able to spawn is less vital to me, and many other players, than being able to win. This is a competitive shooter, not Minecraft. Fair enough, I take back my crap about selfishness, it's an issue of opinion what you prioritize, the pacing of the player experience for every player in the server, or the depth of the goal oriented experience.
I FAR FAR FAR prioritize the goal oriented experience. I get EXTREMELY irritated by being down 2 players in game I feel like my team can still win. I don't care in the slightest about being forced to wait longer so the other team can have that level of fairness in their own experience. If anything I feel like it doesn't go far enough.
I'll grant you that you're not wrong, your priorities are a real thing for many people. Understand that my priorities are a real thing for me.
This issue isn't one that deserves to be complained about, find a server that suits your preferences more. Neither of us are owed anything more than the option of potentially having our preferred experience provided for us.
<!--quoteo(post=2045059:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:04 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Dec 13 2012, 02:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045059"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Boy, if you guys hate this, you would <b>really</b> hate devour...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2045062:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:08 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 13 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about Devour on a Redemption Onos? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To be fair, they did remove that. If the onos teleported you'd get out of it.
<!--quoteo(post=2045062:date=Dec 13 2012, 01:08 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 13 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045062"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about Devour on a Redemption Onos? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What about Devour on a Redemption Onos with a buddy?
> Devour Marine > Lumber around Marine base > Wait to teleport out (or die, dice dice baby) > BrOnos devours cut-out Marine upon croak or poof > Repeat for profit???
<!--quoteo(post=2045065:date=Dec 13 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 13 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be fair, they did remove that. If the onos teleported you'd get out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure, but it did exist and there was much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands before it was removed. And getting Stomped still pales in comparison.
Besides, I always enjoyed the "mini game" of freeing your devoured buddy. What "mini game" is included with Stomp, a round of Twister?
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I love this feature.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
It's EXTREMELY irritating losing (partly) because of team imbalance. Especially when you're winning and all of a sudden 2-3 of your teammates leave the game, causing you to slowly lose.
I only play on servers that have it.
I really wish more games would use it.
Honestly, if you're ######ing about it, there are two options for you: Switch teams to BALANCE THE ######ING GAME or play on a server that doesn't have it.
blindJoin Date: 2010-04-17Member: 71437Members, Squad Five Gold
I understand the reasoning for this feature but it comes with a major flaw: most of the times the losing team will drop in playercount as soon as the game is pretty much over. In that scenario the balance feature will drag out the game even longer to waste everyone's time. Except for the people who like bashing a team without hope. Or being bashed. No one would (neither should) switch sides at that given point. Maybe a timer would ease the problem a bit, so that the balance feature only kicks in at the early game. But in general, I simply don't like it.
<!--quoteo(post=2045081:date=Dec 13 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Doppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Doppy @ Dec 13 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->I love this feature.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
It's EXTREMELY irritating losing (partly) because of team imbalance. Especially when you're winning and all of a sudden 2-3 of your teammates leave the game, causing you to slowly lose.
I only play on servers that have it.
I really wish more games would use it.
Honestly, if you're ######ing about it, there are two options for you: Switch teams to BALANCE THE ######ING GAME or play on a server that doesn't have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can barely recall a server that doesn't have it.
Also, how about the players that left, never leave? How about they stay so I don't have to be punished for them leaving?
This feature sounds exactly like something that would happen in Harrison Bergeron. HRUNNN I CAN'T HAVE FUN SO NEITHER CAN YOU
I witnessed a round last night that I'm sure the autobalance haters would have really hated: Our alien team did badly in the first few minutes and lost a 2nd quick hive and had 2 res towers only. It was W2 A2, shotties and GL vs 0 upgrade skulks. At this point 9 out of 12 alien players F4. Amazingly the remaining 3 skulks killed most of the marine team leaving them unable to spawn. Much rage ensued as the ready roomers called for the last 3 aliens to F4 or the marines to hurry up and finish it so we could start a proper game. Meanwhile an alien jumped in comm and began building furiously across the map. The marines with only 3 live players couldn't stop it. I'd had enough of waiting after a minute and left the server. A mate who waited it out said that after a while the aliens all joined back up and the game actually went on for a quite while and was a fairly even match in the end.
I'm undecided if this is an example of F4 being abused to reverse a one sided match or a shining example of a stacked pub game being corrected with autobalance. I know that if we hadn't F4'd when we did we could have looked forward to alien turtle mode and not being able to spawn due to egg lock.
Players are going to F4 or leave the server when the cease to have fun. Usually in NS2 that is when the game has become very one sided. What do all the anti autobalance crowd want? People to happily get spawn/egg camped while you rack up kills? F that! Or worse, slight team number imbalances in other wise even matches to ruin what could have been a good game?
This is one of a few strong reasons a Surrender vote should largely replace the Team Balance feature. The ready room setup currently is really awkward. While ready room layouts are fun and cool, the game mechanic itself is a clunky byproduct of NS1 that pretty much should've been abolished :/
But the point is a Surrender vote lets players passively say "the game's over guys, we should quit" without removing those players from the game.
Would be even better if there was some permanent stat regarding how many games you left or AFKed in.
F4 is a method of conceding a game. If one or two people do it, it's a minor annoyance unless the team in question is dominating by a heavy margin and simply not dying. If enough of the team does it, the round should end.
Staying in a round that is obviously going to be lost in a minute or two saves a minute or two of painful, silly game play where the round has already been decided. I will not hesitate to F4 on one hive when Marines dominate the map, or on one command chair while the Aliens control the whole map and have whips/crags/shifts outside both exits to the base.
Waiting for the other team to bring overwhelming force to bear to finish you off while having no ability to effectively fight back isn't really 'fun' for a lot of people.
This is also why I like playing on servers that have a 'surrender' option, since it forces the rest of the team into the ready room in an already lost game.
How about we go back to the old way and just switch you to the other team whether you like it or not? That's how games used to keep the teams balanced.
Oh wait. You don't want to have to switch to the losing team. And you don't want them to get to play a fair game. Cry more....
I love the system because I don't like being team switched and I'm not an impatient ###### and know I can switch if I really don't like waiting. You don't HAVE to wait, but you do HAVE to have fairly even teams.
I just quitted ns for today because of autobalance. It's a damn curse. I'm winning most of the matches I'm in, so I'm getting this crap constantly. I can't stand it.
If there is something that is killing this game for me, it's autobalance.
And it would be so easily fixed, when you don't had to wait indefinitely. Just increase the respawn time of the team with more players. But don't keep people out of the game indefinitely.
Comments
Or is the issue just that you want to have the game over quicker when you personally F4 to screw your team over?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you read what I wrote?
What I outlined is that the autobalance is intended to stop sides getting uneven due to disco's or people leaving but NOT for people deciding a games over and causing grief to winning side.
It should not kick in because they f4'd and went into RR....in those instances they should still be counted on the side they left and as such the autobalance does not kick in.
I am sick of being stuck in games unable to spawn because we started to win and 2-3 people on other side f4'd.
They screw over not only their team mates but also the other side with how it kicks in now.
If 3 of your team F4 and refuse to rejoin then apparently the game is already over, so causing the winning side to sit there not acrruing res simply draws out a game that is already lost.
It also ruins the gaming experience for the same number of people on the winning side, its was always very much the dummy spit...now its a case of taking your bat and ball and going home.
This is one of the lamest parts of the game, that a couple of people can ruin a game for both sides.
Its terrible to not be able to spawn after a 30 min long game to partake in the final alien assault because people on the other side f4'd.
Now if they LEAVE the server and rage quit fair enough...but they have also lost their spot on the server so someone who wants to play can join.
By going into the RR they stop someone else joining the server who <u>might want to help you fight it out</u>.
I hate people f4'ing and recycling and I almost always stick it out...but sadly others out there are not of the same ilk and recycle or f4 at the drop of a hat.
I then proceed to use the info I stole to try to even the scales.
Usually, this just delays things and the team still loses, but I still feel good because I know the contributions I made to the other team before I switched helped them win, and by my switching that's one less spot for someone to be stuck in Auto-balance respawn hell.
On rare occasions, the team makes a comeback and then I feel really good. It's almost never because I single-handedly turned the battle around, but I still like to think I helped to stage the comeback.
Just learn to have fun and enjoy.
i would rate server admins who do not turn this off or make it to some outrageous level idiots.
What I outlined is that the autobalance is intended to stop sides getting uneven due to disco's or people leaving but NOT for people deciding a games over and causing grief to winning side.
It should not kick in because they f4'd and went into RR....in those instances they should still be counted on the side they left and as such the autobalance does not kick in.
I am sick of being stuck in games unable to spawn because we started to win and 2-3 people on other side f4'd.
They screw over not only their team mates but also the other side with how it kicks in now.
If 3 of your team F4 and refuse to rejoin then apparently the game is already over, so causing the winning side to sit there not acrruing res simply draws out a game that is already lost.
It also ruins the gaming experience for the same number of people on the winning side, its was always very much the dummy spit...now its a case of taking your bat and ball and going home.
This is one of the lamest parts of the game, that a couple of people can ruin a game for both sides.
Its terrible to not be able to spawn after a 30 min long game to partake in the final alien assault because people on the other side f4'd.
Now if they LEAVE the server and rage quit fair enough...but they have also lost their spot on the server so someone who wants to play can join.
By going into the RR they stop someone else joining the server who <u>might want to help you fight it out</u>.
I hate people f4'ing and recycling and I almost always stick it out...but sadly others out there are not of the same ilk and recycle or f4 at the drop of a hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I have a 12 v 12 game, and 3 people "decide the game is over" but the rest of the team has not decided the game is over, then the team has not conceded defeat. The concede "vote" does not have an acceptable majority. and thus the players who have not conceded defeat should not be punished for the concession of the player they share no relation to aside from getting stuck on the same team. If the last 9 want to play the game out, they should not be forced to take a disadvantage because 3 players on their team chose to be jerks about the situation. If they agreed with those players, and therefore deserved the more expedited loss, they would have F4ed also.
Additionally, F4 does not always entail concession of defeat. Sometimes I F4 because I have to take a ######, or my family needs help with something and I know it will be 5 minutes before I'll be back. Better the Pres I was earning go to players who are actually in the game, and the opposing team doesn't get the unfair advantage of the extra player while I sit AFK.
I don't think this system is wrong in general. It is a good idea, but I think a much more forgiving system would be, to increase the spawn times of the team with more people. I don't know a number yet but something around 2 - 5 seconds per player difference seems enough. It doesn't create spawn-times from more than a minute (what I think the main concern of the people here is) and it won't change the probability of getting a fair game much from what we have now.
<b>TL;DR: A better system would be, to increase the spawn times of the team with more people.</b>
So I'm now thinking this might of been a bit of a knee-jerk idea. The ideal auto-balance would let everyone play while not disadvantaging the smaller team. And if everyone's still playing you could activate auto-balance even in the off by one games (eg 8 v 7).
Maybe a percentage damage+health boost like suggested earlier? Maybe a scale depending on team size that only effects the smaller team (so your never debuffed), scale = (enemy team size)/(our team size), so in 8v7 the 7 team skulks would have 80 hp, 11 armor and 85 damage instead of 70, 10 and 75. I they were marines they would have 114 hp, 34 armor and 11 AR dmg. Crazy idea but it give an automatic handicap to the smaller team, keeps everyone in game, and can even be applied to off by one teams. Still isn't perfect I don't think any system will be.
Additionally, F4 does not always entail concession of defeat. Sometimes I F4 because I have to take a ######, or my family needs help with something and I know it will be 5 minutes before I'll be back. Better the Pres I was earning go to players who are actually in the game, and the opposing team doesn't get the unfair advantage of the extra player while I sit AFK.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If 3 people chuck a wobbly and dummy spit why should the winning side be penalised? I am sorry but everything possible needs to be done to discourage people f4'ing.
Penalising the side who have won the map is a bad mechanic and very frustrating. What it is intended to do and what it does are two different things.
It does not stop your side having kids who spit the dummy and f4 if they dont get a special build order, instead it just makes people on other team sit out and watch the game.
If you chose to go take a dump or something else why should another player on the other team also have to sit out? This is your choice to sit in the RR not his to sit unable to spawn.
Sorry but the mechanic is broken, it does not work as a way of ensuring an even game just drawing out games that are over.
I have sat waiting to spawn too often due to people not willing to play out matches to think its just a passing fad.
I am sorry but if you have to go AFK so be it...thats a tough break for your side...no reason to penalise the other side for your weak bladder.
Sitting in the RR is poor form, leave the server and let someone who wants to play to join in the interim.
Penalising the side who have won the map is a bad mechanic and very frustrating. What it is intended to do and what it does are two different things.
It does not stop your side having kids who spit the dummy and f4 if they dont get a special build order, instead it just makes people on other team sit out and watch the game.
If you chose to go take a dump or something else why should another player on the other team also have to sit out? This is your choice to sit in the RR not his to sit unable to spawn.
Sorry but the mechanic is broken, it does not work as a way of ensuring an even game just drawing out games that are over.
I have sat waiting to spawn too often due to people not willing to play out matches to think its just a passing fad.
I am sorry but if you have to go AFK so be it...thats a tough break for your side...no reason to penalise the other side for your weak bladder.
Sitting in the RR is poor form, leave the server and let someone who wants to play to join in the interim.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because having them on the map is making the game unfair for the opposing team, who is doing their best to win as well. The game might be a foregone conclusion at 12 v 9 if all 12 players are on the map, but the 9 players are very much still in the game if the maximum number of players the opposing team can field is 10.
It doesn't "penalize" the winning team. The team with the higher player count hasn't done anything to secure the victory. It just has a higher player count. The opposing team isn't innately "losing" because they are down players. As long as players on the opposing team want to play out the game, they have the right to as fair a match as possible. You don't ever deserve X number of F4s because you killed Y number of RTs, there's absolutely no developer control in mechanics like that, it's innately unfair if in one match I can be a "losing" team because 2 players on my team don't like craig first hive, where as another I don't lose players at all throughout the entire match, regardless of losing all our RTs and our second hive. My team may have earned the disadvantage, but they have not earned some arbitrary number of rage quits, that we deserve to lose because of.
Unbalanced player counts are a real issue, it does break the game, and this is a beautiful solution for that that puts the power in the hands of the player. If you WANT to switch teams to even things up, fine, that's wonderful, if you don't for what ever reason, that's also fine, the game is still fair. I far prefer this solution than the team switch plugins we had in NS1. It was TONNES of fun to have your dedicated fade forced to team swap because he was the last player to join the team.
Honestly, you all against this mechanic seem really scummy to me. I have a REALLY hard time reading this as anything but "I don't want the game to be fair, I just want to spawn as fast as possible". It's really gross. You should care more about the game than the "fun lost" by having to spectate a little bit. It's extremely selfish. What about the fun of every player on the other team? You might have a rationalization for it, but you're just wrong. It's ABSOLUTELY NOT fun to be forced to lose a game you're desperately fighting for because you're down players. It's FAR more frustrating to be penalized with a loss for doing nothing wrong at all, than to be penalized with a bit of delay time for the 'sin' of being on the team that has too many players.
Can I get an Amen?
This attitude of "they ruined my win by 'f4ing a truly lost game' and we didn't get to keep them cornered in their base while we research every available upgrade" is also an extension of this. Winning isn't enough; people have to "lol pwn" people.
Sad when this happens.
Yea, they have. Their players are still there. Most of the time they have been winning and usually have made the enemy team rage or F4. Being ignorant of that fact just makes you look like the biggest idiot.
Since a game is about being able to actually do stuff, rather than just winning, let's look at some stupid ideas, because they're smarter than what you're saying:
If I stay in a game and never get a chance to spawn because of autobalance and I win, should I be happy? Should I be forced to change teams just because some loser F4'd? Or am I just going to ######ing leave because autobalance in NS2 is the stupidest ######ing autoabalance I've ever seen?
If I buy a game, I bought it just to win, right? I shouldn't actually try to play, I should just go into a game and join a team that is stomping so hard, spawn for 5 seconds, die, and AFK while my team wins? ###### no stupid you bought a game to play it not to ######ing sit around.
Autobalance: Worse than devour
Since a game is about being able to actually do stuff, rather than just winning, let's look at some stupid ideas, because they're smarter than what you're saying:
If I stay in a game and never get a chance to spawn because of autobalance and I win, should I be happy? Should I be forced to change teams just because some loser F4'd? Or am I just going to ######ing leave because autobalance in NS2 is the stupidest ######ing autoabalance I've ever seen?
If I buy a game, I bought it just to win, right? I shouldn't actually try to play, I should just go into a game and join a team that is stomping so hard, spawn for 5 seconds, die, and AFK while my team wins? ###### no stupid you bought a game to play it not to ######ing sit around.
Autobalance: Worse than devour<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being able to spawn is less vital to me, and many other players, than being able to win. This is a competitive shooter, not Minecraft. Fair enough, I take back my crap about selfishness, it's an issue of opinion what you prioritize, the pacing of the player experience for every player in the server, or the depth of the goal oriented experience.
I FAR FAR FAR prioritize the goal oriented experience. I get EXTREMELY irritated by being down 2 players in game I feel like my team can still win. I don't care in the slightest about being forced to wait longer so the other team can have that level of fairness in their own experience. If anything I feel like it doesn't go far enough.
I'll grant you that you're not wrong, your priorities are a real thing for many people. Understand that my priorities are a real thing for me.
This issue isn't one that deserves to be complained about, find a server that suits your preferences more. Neither of us are owed anything more than the option of potentially having our preferred experience provided for us.
What about Devour on a Redemption Onos? :)
To be fair, they did remove that. If the onos teleported you'd get out of it.
What about Devour on a Redemption Onos with a buddy?
> Devour Marine
> Lumber around Marine base
> Wait to teleport out (or die, dice dice baby)
> BrOnos devours cut-out Marine upon croak or poof
> Repeat for profit???
Sure, but it did exist and there was much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands before it was removed. And getting Stomped still pales in comparison.
Besides, I always enjoyed the "mini game" of freeing your devoured buddy. What "mini game" is included with Stomp, a round of Twister?
It's EXTREMELY irritating losing (partly) because of team imbalance. Especially when you're winning and all of a sudden 2-3 of your teammates leave the game, causing you to slowly lose.
I only play on servers that have it.
I really wish more games would use it.
Honestly, if you're ######ing about it, there are two options for you: Switch teams to BALANCE THE ######ING GAME or play on a server that doesn't have it.
It's EXTREMELY irritating losing (partly) because of team imbalance. Especially when you're winning and all of a sudden 2-3 of your teammates leave the game, causing you to slowly lose.
I only play on servers that have it.
I really wish more games would use it.
Honestly, if you're ######ing about it, there are two options for you: Switch teams to BALANCE THE ######ING GAME or play on a server that doesn't have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can barely recall a server that doesn't have it.
Also, how about the players that left, never leave? How about they stay so I don't have to be punished for them leaving?
This feature sounds exactly like something that would happen in Harrison Bergeron. HRUNNN I CAN'T HAVE FUN SO NEITHER CAN YOU
Our alien team did badly in the first few minutes and lost a 2nd quick hive and had 2 res towers only. It was W2 A2, shotties and GL vs 0 upgrade skulks. At this point 9 out of 12 alien players F4. Amazingly the remaining 3 skulks killed most of the marine team leaving them unable to spawn. Much rage ensued as the ready roomers called for the last 3 aliens to F4 or the marines to hurry up and finish it so we could start a proper game. Meanwhile an alien jumped in comm and began building furiously across the map. The marines with only 3 live players couldn't stop it. I'd had enough of waiting after a minute and left the server. A mate who waited it out said that after a while the aliens all joined back up and the game actually went on for a quite while and was a fairly even match in the end.
I'm undecided if this is an example of F4 being abused to reverse a one sided match or a shining example of a stacked pub game being corrected with autobalance. I know that if we hadn't F4'd when we did we could have looked forward to alien turtle mode and not being able to spawn due to egg lock.
Players are going to F4 or leave the server when the cease to have fun. Usually in NS2 that is when the game has become very one sided. What do all the anti autobalance crowd want? People to happily get spawn/egg camped while you rack up kills? F that! Or worse, slight team number imbalances in other wise even matches to ruin what could have been a good game?
But the point is a Surrender vote lets players passively say "the game's over guys, we should quit" without removing those players from the game.
Would be even better if there was some permanent stat regarding how many games you left or AFKed in.
Staying in a round that is obviously going to be lost in a minute or two saves a minute or two of painful, silly game play where the round has already been decided. I will not hesitate to F4 on one hive when Marines dominate the map, or on one command chair while the Aliens control the whole map and have whips/crags/shifts outside both exits to the base.
Waiting for the other team to bring overwhelming force to bear to finish you off while having no ability to effectively fight back isn't really 'fun' for a lot of people.
This is also why I like playing on servers that have a 'surrender' option, since it forces the rest of the team into the ready room in an already lost game.
Oh wait. You don't want to have to switch to the losing team. And you don't want them to get to play a fair game. Cry more....
I love the system because I don't like being team switched and I'm not an impatient ###### and know I can switch if I really don't like waiting. You don't HAVE to wait, but you do HAVE to have fairly even teams.
It's a damn curse. I'm winning most of the matches I'm in, so I'm getting this crap constantly. I can't stand it.
If there is something that is killing this game for me, it's autobalance.