<!--quoteo(post=2034485:date=Nov 25 2012, 05:25 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 25 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other obvious fix would be making the fade useful ---> but then you just have fade explosions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2035524:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:24 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know what Charlie intended, but like any RTS game, you're on a timer when you start<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plenty of RTS games don't have a timer that defaults to your enemy winning??? In fact.,.. what RTS do you play that does this?
That sounds like survivor mode in L4D.. not a balanced RTS.
Not the Face!Join Date: 2012-11-27Member: 173437Members
I think that "Onos Avalanche" could stand some design shifts for counterplay reasons rather then game balance. I'm feeling pretty assured that it doesn't break competitive games beyond being a timer right now. Given the asymmetric nature of the game that's an okay set up. However, I think it could be better.
I'm still a rookie and my NS1 experience was years ago. However I'm getting back up to speed really fast and have already noshed plenty of marines. For me the bigger concern is actually the 50 minute pub game. There just isn't really great options on the marine side against a supported multi-Onos push. It has felt like Aliens can turtle up and just save rez to come back. In such an environment having Onos push as more of a soft counter would feel better. Thing is that the options are somewhat lacking.
Yet it also feels that Onos need to exist to allow Marines to have such a good turtle without it being game breaking...Even worse would be a counter that requires nothing dynamic to unlock. Turtle vs Turtle in pubs would be so terrible.
Now I like the resource change in comparison to my memories of NS1. However I think that resources are the right spot here. I think that Onos need some type of secondary cost.
One idea that comes to mind is having Onos cost an egg to upgrade. This would not hamper super late game "this ends now" multi-oni pushes but would change the way build paths into it work. It would raise the risk of an Onos when you don't have the economy to support it properly.
Another idea is having another resource type out there that could gate Onos.
I'm unsure and think a single change would just make Aliens to weak.
I am getting a sense there is a problem that needs to be discussed but "Onos Avalanche" is the wrong subject. I'll be mulling on this while I play.
<!--quoteo(post=2036011:date=Nov 27 2012, 09:54 PM:name=Not the Face!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not the Face! @ Nov 27 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...There just isn't really great options on the marine side against a supported multi-Onos push. It has felt like Aliens can turtle up and just save rez to come back...
...raise the risk of an Onos when you don't have the economy to support it properly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The best option is to pressure the enemy hive and RTs in order to spend as much time as possible versus Skulks. Skulks defending their hive are Skulks that aren't attacking your RTs. Otherwise you might as well say there aren't really great options on the alien side against a supported Exo and ARC push.
An unsupported 1 hive Onos is about as big a risk as you can get, and every counter is of ongoing benefit to marines. Obs to find him? W1 or 2 to take him out? Drop an armory at the entrance to your base once he enters and hose him while he's trapped. Boom, a ton of alien pres down the hole and a long wait before that person can Onos again.
If the Comm is caught completely offguard by an Onos after 6-8 minutes of nothing but skulks then I'm afraid you're dealing with a poor Comm. I'll concede there are situations where the Comm can do everything right and be failed by his marines, but with all skill being equal the buck stops at the Comm if a base-attacking Onos is not trapped or if upgrades have not been researched. Every 6 seconds spent turtling is more res gained for Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2036011:date=Nov 27 2012, 04:54 PM:name=Not the Face!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not the Face! @ Nov 27 2012, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that "Onos Avalanche" could stand some design shifts for counterplay reasons rather then game balance. I'm feeling pretty assured that it doesn't break competitive games beyond being a timer right now. Given the asymmetric nature of the game that's an okay set up. However, I think it could be better.
I'm still a rookie and my NS1 experience was years ago. However I'm getting back up to speed really fast and have already noshed plenty of marines. For me the bigger concern is actually the 50 minute pub game. There just isn't really great options on the marine side against a supported multi-Onos push. It has felt like Aliens can turtle up and just save rez to come back. In such an environment having Onos push as more of a soft counter would feel better. Thing is that the options are somewhat lacking.
Yet it also feels that Onos need to exist to allow Marines to have such a good turtle without it being game breaking...Even worse would be a counter that requires nothing dynamic to unlock. Turtle vs Turtle in pubs would be so terrible.
Now I like the resource change in comparison to my memories of NS1. However I think that resources are the right spot here. I think that Onos need some type of secondary cost.
One idea that comes to mind is having Onos cost an egg to upgrade. This would not hamper super late game "this ends now" multi-oni pushes but would change the way build paths into it work. It would raise the risk of an Onos when you don't have the economy to support it properly.
Another idea is having another resource type out there that could gate Onos.
I'm unsure and think a single change would just make Aliens to weak.
I am getting a sense there is a problem that needs to be discussed but "Onos Avalanche" is the wrong subject. I'll be mulling on this while I play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Most competitive games tend to be over by the time the onos avalanche takes place... and additionally, it's pretty rare for a competitive player to save that much res that long, so the avalanche tends to be at most maybe 1 onos.
It's more of a pub problem, where marines are basically retarded when it comes to killing hives. I was playing on a server with some pretty skilled folk for the most part by pubbing standards, and when it came time to hive rush, we had 4 dual exos, and they STILL took a solid 2 minutes to actually get the hive down. For the record, if 4 dual exos just focus fire they kill a hive in a single volley. Pub players have some SERIOUS problems when it comes to knowing which targets to pick.
It doesn't help that arcs are more sidegrade and more difficult to use than siege was in NS (although I think this will get better with time, we're just not used to it yet)
Regardless, it's more a phenomena of not really needing to spend res on fades and lerks because the marines aren't pressuring you to defend to the same degree, and not really being threatened in the midgame by marine teams after leap comes out (because none of the upgraded marine weapons are quite as potent to the pub game as HMG was). JP flamer is causing some new problems, but it's still quite a bit too expensive for the effect it has vs lifeforms, and there's just no hard counter to onos of any type. You can only make onos weaker in a specific postion, you can never just universally counter them regardless what economic investment you make.
<!--quoteo(post=2035858:date=Nov 27 2012, 12:28 PM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 27 2012, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd love to see more Gorge love too. In the absence of BB they have a very, very dull midgame. I'm not arguing for Gorge Walls of Lame to come rolling back, I just think Gorges need to be more involved in non-base skirmishes. At the very least it would encourage newbie alien players to be something other than Skulks before they go Onos. Until the Khamm gets BB or Adren the Gorge can't really contribute much. Bigger clogs would encourage more offensive blocking without affecting offensive damage, and moves the Gorge closer to the conflict.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought the same thing till I convinced some (skulk) teammates to go with me as a celerity gorge early game and destroyed the marine team. Myself and 2-3 skulks just went around the map taking out RT's and marine teams (this is an 8v8 game). Sure gorges are slow but with celerity I was able to keep up with and keep my little skulk brood alive (and they in turn kept me alive).
It may not be a natively intuitive strategy to a new player but it was pretty fun with players who were willing to work together.
Aliens should not be able to gain a lead without spending any money given reasonably balanced teams. If they can that's a balance problem, higher lifeforms(especially the Fade) should be important to maintaining map control.
As for why pub players save their money for the Onos avalanche, I think it's a couple things:
1. A lot of newer players have the mentality of always wanting to go for the biggest baddest endgame unit, and buying anything else is just delaying that goal. Same reason people play Starcraft FFAs so they can rush straight to Battlecruiser. Marines have the same problem with people never spending any of their money, then whining at the comm to research dual minigun exos once they have 75 res.
2. Lerks and Fades have a very steep skill curve. New players try them out, promptly get blasted and then all their res is gone. That leaves a bad taste in their mouth so they don't want to keep investing their PRes into learning to play Lerk/Fade properly. NS1 was able to mitigate this with Combat mode...
3. Lack of awareness of how much money they have. It can be pretty easy to just keep playing the vanilla class and forget that your PRes is piling up. So rather than making a decision at 30 res not to play Lerk and a decision at 50 res not to play Fade, they just don't think about it until they look down at their 60 PRes and think "well, might as well keep saving for Onos." I think there should be some sort of notification when you have enough money for a higher lifeform, similar to updgrade notices but separate from that.
<!--quoteo(post=2036562:date=Nov 28 2012, 11:26 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 28 2012, 11:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens should not be able to gain a lead without spending any money given reasonably balanced teams. If they can that's a balance problem, higher lifeforms(especially the Fade) should be important to maintaining map control.
As for why pub players save their money for the Onos avalanche, I think it's a couple things:
1. A lot of newer players have the mentality of always wanting to go for the biggest baddest endgame unit, and buying anything else is just delaying that goal. Same reason people play Starcraft FFAs so they can rush straight to Battlecruiser. Marines have the same problem with people never spending any of their money, then whining at the comm to research dual minigun exos once they have 75 res.
2. Lerks and Fades have a very steep skill curve. New players try them out, promptly get blasted and then all their res is gone. That leaves a bad taste in their mouth so they don't want to keep investing their PRes into learning to play Lerk/Fade properly. NS1 was able to mitigate this with Combat mode...
3. Lack of awareness of how much money they have. It can be pretty easy to just keep playing the vanilla class and forget that your PRes is piling up. So rather than making a decision at 30 res not to play Lerk and a decision at 50 res not to play Fade, they just don't think about it until they look down at their 60 PRes and think "well, might as well keep saving for Onos." I think there should be some sort of notification when you have enough money for a higher lifeform, similar to updgrade notices but separate from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#1/2 - Not necessarily as there is a difference in viability between a Lerk/Fade and an Onos. While Lerk/Fade is arguably more fun to play and takes more skill than Onos, the Onos is a far more viable and forgiving combat unit for only 25 more res versus a Fade and far more accessible for the average player. Why would I want to risk playing Lerk/Fade when 1 good Shotgun Marine can ruin my day? I can keep an entire side of the map occupied with a single Onos without much risk to myself so long as I don't overextend. Besides I'm getting into the habit of telling my team as alien comm to NOT spend their pRes on anything but Onos and instead ask for a tRes egg drop for Lerk/Fade. Not like there's much to spend your tRes on until 3rd Hive is dropped. It also helps that the Skulk is a viable unit until Jetpacks come into play.
#3 - I have to agree with this, not on the whole lack of awareness part, but the whole stockpiling resources for lack of buying things. I have a habit of not spending res because you never know when you need someone to have 75 res to deploy an Onos. It's even more important for someone on the team to save for Onos thanks to 3rd Hive Onos egg drop. Fade/Lerk won't cut it when Marines have their entire tech tree operational and Aliens don't have a 3rd Hive. It may be possible if you have some really good Fade/Lerks patrolling the map, but my experience tells me that it's tough to crack a Marine tech point without a damage sponge like the Onos.
Quoted for truth. I'd a protacted endgame just the other night where one Onos stalled marines enough for the Skulks to break their train. Comm tried forward ARCs covered by Exos, but did not push into Hive. Didn't work. Eventually he pincer moved in after 10 minutes of every Kharaa player using all the res they had. Fun, but poor.
<!--quoteo(post=2036556:date=Nov 28 2012, 04:18 PM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daxx @ Nov 28 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought the same thing till...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm thinking of something more attractive to new players than being a roving healspray. Every other class has something it can do decently alone, but the Gorge really doesn't. For the entry level player there's a lot of energy management between heal and spit, and matters don't improve when you're sitting beside your three OCs and overpriced Clogs.
Not sure you need Celery when you've got the awesome power of belly slide! I guess it depends on how long you intend to stay in marine territory?
It looks like we all agree that the fragility of Lerk and Fade make them less attractive than the very newbie friendly Onos. This takes us back to a main sticking point - skill disparity.
It would be interesting to see what would happen in a Fade explosion game involving the sort of marines who allow an Onos rush.
Maybe the problem is that skulks are too powerful, perhaps, thus negating the need to go early lerk or fade. If skulks were weaker, then lerks and fades would be needed earlier in order to deal with midgrade marines while waiting for onos. Dunno, just spitballin here.
<!--quoteo(post=2036618:date=Nov 28 2012, 01:50 PM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 28 2012, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It looks like we all agree that the fragility of Lerk and Fade make them less attractive than the very newbie friendly Onos. This takes us back to a main sticking point - skill disparity.
It would be interesting to see what would happen in a Fade explosion game involving the sort of marines who allow an Onos rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A Fade explosion is exactly what people complained about a while back in the beta, which led to the removal of res flow while dead(to stagger the rate of res gain). People played Fade back then, though I don't remember how they were different. Might even have been pre-Onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2035892:date=Nov 27 2012, 11:38 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 27 2012, 11:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Plenty of RTS games don't have a timer that defaults to your enemy winning??? In fact.,.. what RTS do you play that does this? That sounds like survivor mode in L4D.. not a balanced RTS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I mean is, you're on a "timer" when you start the game. It's not literally a countdown timer, but in effect, it is, because usually you know that at "time W" the enemy will probably have "tech X, tech Y, or unit Z" which if I don't have "tech A, tech B, or unit C" to counter with, it's pretty much game. You can writhe for 5-10 minutes, but assuming equal player skill and no major mistakes, the game is decided when there's overwhelming tech or unit type advantage, or after a single huge skirmish is lost decisively by one side.
I've played supcom2 previously... quite a bit.
The analogy in NS2 would be marines allowing 4-5+ oni, and not having at least w2/a2 and sufficient jetpackers or exos to counter those oni. Once the aliens establish that kind of unit supremacy - which results from an overwhelming economic supremacy, it's pretty much over (again, assuming equal player skill and no major mistakes).
I do alot of *writhing* lately, mostly because no one gets Blink anymore (yet get spores before umbra, sigh), and startout gorges are few and far between. And if we finally get that happening, some clown starts whining that 'no one is saving for onos'.
Now that UWE has buffed Aliens with the Onos to 3rd hive (Buffed you say? Yes, because Aliens now actually have to play the game rather than sitting afk, things are suddenly exciting on the battlefield, OMG, could we be learning the importance of the second hive? Oh wait, no, it's just a nub calling for nano to be built ....) is there a chance Aliens could be futher buffed by removing the recent 100 extra armour for Onos?
Honestly, as the young parents amongst you know, sometimes you feel like your being cruel when your truly being kind :)
<!--quoteo(post=2036769:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:51 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 28 2012, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I mean is, you're on a "timer" when you start the game. It's not literally a countdown timer, but in effect, it is, because usually you know that at "time W" the enemy will probably have "tech X, tech Y, or unit Z" which if I don't have "tech A, tech B, or unit C" to counter with, it's pretty much game. You can writhe for 5-10 minutes, but assuming equal player skill and no major mistakes, the game is decided when there's overwhelming tech or unit type advantage, or after a single huge skirmish is lost decisively by one side.
I've played supcom2 previously... quite a bit.
The analogy in NS2 would be marines allowing 4-5+ oni, and not having at least w2/a2 and sufficient jetpackers or exos to counter those oni. Once the aliens establish that kind of unit supremacy - which results from an overwhelming economic supremacy, it's pretty much over (again, assuming equal player skill and no major mistakes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Individually, this situation is not a problem. The problem is that currently, in NS2, there just is no A, B, or C. If they have 4-5 onos, you had better just hope those onos are bad, because if you try to counter them with exo's you will just lose everything on the map where the exo's currently are not, and if you try to counter them with jetpacks, you just don't have the firepower to actually take them down consistently. There is no real thing that effectively counters the onos rush aside from the onos being pretty bad, and your jetpacks being pretty spectacular.
A situation where you had to forgoe, lets say for example, weapons and armor 3 upgrades, to develop the anti-onos tech 5 minutes earlier if you expected the onos to breech at an earlier point would be fine. There would be a tactical reality to that. I either believe I do not need to account for too many onos based on the lifeforms I've already seen on the alien team, or I believe I do need to account early for the onos because the enemy team hasn't really been too much aside from skulk, I make that strategic decision and manipulate my build accordingly. But in NS2, there's no strategic decision to make.
<!--quoteo(post=2036831:date=Nov 28 2012, 06:06 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 28 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A situation where you had to forgoe, lets say for example, weapons and armor 3 upgrades, to develop the anti-onos tech 5 minutes earlier if you expected the onos to breech at an earlier point would be fine. There would be a tactical reality to that. I either believe I do not need to account for too many onos based on the lifeforms I've already seen on the alien team, or I believe I do need to account early for the onos because the enemy team hasn't really been too much aside from skulk, I make that stratic decision and manipulate my build accordingly. But in NS2, there's no strategic decision to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can easily do that. Sacrifice Weapons research in order to rush Dual Exosuits if you want to fight Oni on equal terms, or sacrifice late-game tech for a strong early push that can power through their almost-entirely-skulk-based-team. Shotguns for everyone, and Nanoshields on all the things.
<!--quoteo(post=2036856:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:43 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 29 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can easily do that. Sacrifice Weapons research in order to rush Dual Exosuits if you want to fight Oni on equal terms, or sacrifice late-game tech for a strong early push that can power through their almost-entirely-skulk-based-team. Shotguns for everyone, and Nanoshields on all the things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The obvious flaw there is that forgoing Arms Lab investments just makes your Exos ######tier in their own way, so you pay for it regardless. You rushed Exos, but the Exos are now under-armed and armored.
<!--quoteo(post=2036856:date=Nov 28 2012, 07:43 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 28 2012, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can easily do that. Sacrifice Weapons research in order to rush Dual Exosuits if you want to fight Oni on equal terms, or sacrifice late-game tech for a strong early push that can power through their almost-entirely-skulk-based-team. Shotguns for everyone, and Nanoshields on all the things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is hilariously bad against skilled intelligent onos. Yes, the onos cannot easily just kill the exos in open ground, but exo's can only have presence in the map at one place at a time, and onos are WAY WAY WAAAAAAAAAAAY more responsive. If the exo's leave the base, you lose the base, if the exo's don't leave the base, you lose your other tech point and all your resource nodes. If the exo's push towards a hive, you just lose everything.
Onos are the counter to Exos when the Onos know what they're doing, regardless of how skilled the Exo players are. Not the other way around.
At least with a very skilled jetpacker you can work around the onos and do damage to alien locations while the onos struggles to keep up.
<!--quoteo(post=2036755:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:32 AM:name=Azaral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azaral @ Nov 29 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036755"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the problem is that skulks are too powerful, perhaps, thus negating the need to go early lerk or fade. If skulks were weaker, then lerks and fades would be needed earlier in order to deal with midgrade marines while waiting for onos. Dunno, just spitballin here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this may be a factor. Another factor is the relative "uselessness" of the gorge. If I recall correctly, the only gorges you saw in the first 3-4 minutes of NS1 were for building things like res towers and upgrade chambers. Even then, once their task was complete they typically ran in to die or just typed kill in the console. This aspect has obviously since been removed, but they haven't been made necessary in any other way. Thus, you see almost no early game gorges, which in my opinion (and I'm sure most people would agree with me if they think about it) did more to disperse a tech explosion than any RFK system ever did.
The problem comes in when you consider that, the best way to make a lifeform like a gorge better is to make it support better, since it is a support lifeform. However, since I think the skulk/marine balance (early game at least) is pretty good right now, this may tip the scale in an undesirable way. Thus I would propose making the gorge more self sustainable, a sort of "lone gorge" if you will. Only for the early game mind you, his support role truly comes into its own in the late game, so that should remain unchanged. Also, if there was more of a variable res cost associated with playing gorge, I think res amounts would be far more scattered than they are now. At the moment, a gorge costs either 10 res, or 19 res. There is no middle ground, and basically nobody goes further than 19 res. A system which allowed more res expenditure by choice would be nice.
Basically, if gorges actually provided some early game (marine avoidable) benefit, you may see teams always having at least one, and maybe two. And if one went down, and he had over spent on resources, you may see many players having to spend the ten res on gorge early game.
<!--quoteo(post=2035497:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 26 2012, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) That means there's a set timer for Marines to beat else they lose, and this was never designed to be this way, or proposed as such in Charlie's high level design docs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which sadly is what happens to Marines in competitive play. It's a time bomb before the Onos/Fade critical mass gets you.
<!--quoteo(post=2037003:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:16 AM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 29 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which sadly is what happens to Marines in competitive play. It's a time bomb before the Onos/Fade critical mass gets you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's too bad there's never been a version of NS where it's not either one or the other. In the later patches of NS1, a marine team could camp on 2 nodes until the team was geared up with JP HMG, and just immediately sweep the map as if the aliens weren't even there.
Now it's more the opposite, onos are so SO brutally powerful, and at 3 hives the comm can drop infinity of them. We need a bit of an RPS mechanic, where if you have too many of whatever counters onos, fades become powerful, and if you have too many of whatever counters fades, onos become powerful. Shift the metagame to rely on compositions and not trying to get too much mileage out of something predictable.
Actually, this is the best argument I can think of for Temphage's 6th lifeform (no idea what it would actually be though). You could potentially have a 6 way RPS in the late game rather than a 4 way, which could be pretty cool.
<!--quoteo(post=2036882:date=Nov 28 2012, 07:26 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 28 2012, 07:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The obvious flaw there is that forgoing Arms Lab investments just makes your Exos ######tier in their own way, so you pay for it regardless. You rushed Exos, but the Exos are now under-armed and armored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except that it doesn't. I said to skip Weapons research, which Exosuits do not benefit from.
If you ignore all the things I said about how to intelligently plan for Oni and let half of your development fall through the cracks, you are indeed boned. That doesn't mean there aren't easily implementable and notably effective build/spec orders for nearly every enemy strategy, including early Oni.
Just finished a 72mins long game, we were screwed pretty bad but just kept hanging on and you know what, we downed i think like 5? onoses 2 at a time, with lvl 1 LMGs.
Its all about proper squad tactics, onoses really aren't that powerful.
Fades also suck, tbh they should just be worked in as focus fades from the start, more dmg, slower attack.
That being said, i still find overall, aliens are far more powerful than marines. We usually try to lock them down from 2nd IP, and by the time the onoses get to the game, the marines are held off in their base, res starving, and we just NEED the onoses to tank for bile gorges to end the game.
I think this timer thing is important. It is quite clear that marines are on a tight count down, and that count down reaches zero when too many Onos appear. But wait... it is already well known that marines turtling is quite a big problem, and can result in Onos going down like flies against massed light marines, even when they have absolutely no resource income to speak of. So how can it be that the timer is so strict, but somehow means nothing when the timer reaches zero in the biggest way possible (when basically every player on the alien team suddenly has the ability to go Onos). Then ask yourself why it is that the aliens are not on a similar timer. We all like to talk about why exos suck, but they do a hell of a lot of damage, take a hell of a alot of damage, and stack really well. I've been killed as an Onos by 2 exos before I even got up to them. 1v1 they may not be on par, but in groups they can put up a pretty even fight against equal Onos numbers.
So then why is this happening? 2 reasons: <b>speed </b>and <b>predictability</b>.
Onos relocate rapidly, and are typically not expected, and show up unpredictably. Exos are slow as hell, can be heard from a mile away, and the aliens have ample time to prepare for their arrival. When Oni are attacking turtling marines, they are 100% expected and their speed in relocation counts for nothing, and thus the Onos themselves count for almost nothing. I think it is this that needs to be addressed, and if it is, all other problems should fall away. Either make the Onos highly predictable or slow, or make the Exo fast.
I propose making these two "super units" audible throughout the map. Not for individual marines, but for commanders. if a commander is within 3 rooms of an Onos running around, he should hear him, and be able to pinpoint his location and direction with relative ease. The same goes for alien commanders and Exos. This will affect almost nothing though, as the alien team almost always knows exactly where the exos are. Silence would make it harder to pinpoint an Onos, but the rattling environment should still allow it to be possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2036888:date=Nov 28 2012, 06:40 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 28 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos are the counter to Exos when the Onos know what they're doing, regardless of how skilled the Exo players are. Not the other way around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2037003:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:16 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 28 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which sadly is what happens to Marines in competitive play. It's a time bomb before the Onos/Fade critical mass gets you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically this.
The unfortunate fact of the game is that while one, two, maybe three oni is manageable, 4+ becomes kind of impossible to counter (assuming they're above average players).
Sure, you can have a+ jetpackers or spam as many exos as oni, but the fact is that due to the oni's mobility, they can clean out everywhere where the exos are not (as others have already pointed out above), or even go around the exos and hit some chair while they're walking forward to some hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2036765:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:45 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 28 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A Fade explosion is exactly what people complained about a while back in the beta<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, my point being that if you're being boned just as badly by an "explosion" of Fades as you are by Oni then the issue is either your Commanding, your team, or aliens just being insanely overpowered. Probably in that order, too.
<!--quoteo(post=2036831:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 29 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that currently, in NS2, there just is no A, B, or C... There is no real thing that effectively counters the onos rush aside from the onos being pretty bad, and your jetpacks being pretty spectacular.
A situation where you had to forgoe, lets say for example, weapons and armor 3 upgrades, to develop the anti-onos tech 5 minutes earlier if you expected the onos to breech at an earlier point would be fine. There would be a tactical reality to that. I either believe I do not need to account for too many onos based on the lifeforms I've already seen on the alien team, or I believe I do need to account early for the onos because the enemy team hasn't really been too much aside from skulk, I make that strategic decision and manipulate my build accordingly. But in NS2, there's no strategic decision to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to clarify, are you saying that there is no effective counter to "expected" Onos in an "all things being equal" game?
If that state of affairs is indeed correct (which would be inherently hard to prove in pub play but should be painfully obvious in "pro" play) then the easiest solution I can think of is to revamp the research "tree" on both sides.
Aliens could have the option of "early" Onos tree (or "Baby Onos" class) vs a Fade tree, and converging on a "real" Onos as an endgame-only class. Marines could have the option of an anti-Baby Onos tree vs an anti-Fade tree.
Hypothetically, at the simplest level this could be making "true" Onos grossly expensive/Hivelocked, with the Baby Onos being the current "no limits" version, and adjusting armour and damage types so that Marine anti-Fade weaponry is largely ineffective against Baby Onos and vice versa. Endgame tech remains "as is".
The aliens still get their "explosion" newbie friendly tank, but are penalised if they focus exclusively on it. Marines get a tactical option that allows them to prepare for Baby Onos. Endgame is unaffected because proper Onos is still doing what proper Onos is meant to do.
You could experiment with this by modifying the balance.lua, etc. to take into account the proposed midgame changes (ie current Onos now becomes Baby Onos, choose 2 existing researchable marine weapons to be placeholder anti-Fade and anti-Baby tech) and view results over time to see if the "avalanche" can be planned for and countered. In this test we would ignore the endgame, limit the results to:
Baby Onos "rush" vs basic weapon Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon Fade "rush" vs basic weapon Fade "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon Fade "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon 50-50 rush vs basic weapon 50-50 rush vs anti-Fade weapon 50-50 rush vs anti-Baby weapon 50-50 rush vs 50-50 weapons
This would give a baseline (the basic weapon) and tests to help balance the appropriate marine counter tech.
With favourable results in midgame you'd then need to do proper work modding in "True Onos" and "Marine Tech" to see how endgame is affected. I would count an unaffected endgame but extended midgame as an overall success. For tres costing I'd suggest both marine techs to have equal costs, and high enough so that it's an "either or" proposition in the earlygame. Baby Onos would have the pres cost of current Onos. Everything else unchanged.
It's very rock, paper, scissors, but does this sound like an idea worth trying?
<!--quoteo(post=2037245:date=Nov 29 2012, 11:30 AM:name=Necrosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necrosis @ Nov 29 2012, 11:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, my point being that if you're being boned just as badly by an "explosion" of Fades as you are by Oni then the issue is either your Commanding, your team, or aliens just being insanely overpowered. Probably in that order, too.
Just to clarify, are you saying that there is no effective counter to "expected" Onos in an "all things being equal" game?
If that state of affairs is indeed correct (which would be inherently hard to prove in pub play but should be painfully obvious in "pro" play) then the easiest solution I can think of is to revamp the research "tree" on both sides.
Aliens could have the option of "early" Onos tree (or "Baby Onos" class) vs a Fade tree, and converging on a "real" Onos as an endgame-only class. Marines could have the option of an anti-Baby Onos tree vs an anti-Fade tree.
Hypothetically, at the simplest level this could be making "true" Onos grossly expensive/Hivelocked, with the Baby Onos being the current "no limits" version, and adjusting armour and damage types so that Marine anti-Fade weaponry is largely ineffective against Baby Onos and vice versa. Endgame tech remains "as is".
The aliens still get their "explosion" newbie friendly tank, but are penalised if they focus exclusively on it. Marines get a tactical option that allows them to prepare for Baby Onos. Endgame is unaffected because proper Onos is still doing what proper Onos is meant to do.
You could experiment with this by modifying the balance.lua, etc. to take into account the proposed midgame changes (ie current Onos now becomes Baby Onos, choose 2 existing researchable marine weapons to be placeholder anti-Fade and anti-Baby tech) and view results over time to see if the "avalanche" can be planned for and countered. In this test we would ignore the endgame, limit the results to:
Baby Onos "rush" vs basic weapon Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon Fade "rush" vs basic weapon Fade "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon Fade "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon 50-50 rush vs basic weapon 50-50 rush vs anti-Fade weapon 50-50 rush vs anti-Baby weapon 50-50 rush vs 50-50 weapons
This would give a baseline (the basic weapon) and tests to help balance the appropriate marine counter tech.
With favourable results in midgame you'd then need to do proper work modding in "True Onos" and "Marine Tech" to see how endgame is affected. I would count an unaffected endgame but extended midgame as an overall success. For tres costing I'd suggest both marine techs to have equal costs, and high enough so that it's an "either or" proposition in the earlygame. Baby Onos would have the pres cost of current Onos. Everything else unchanged.
It's very rock, paper, scissors, but does this sound like an idea worth trying?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are some good ideas in there - and you're spot on with the need for Rock-Paper-Scissors. While an all-team 'full' Onos isn't an issue (ie you shouldn't have let them get to that stage), having two viable mid-game units with two appropriate counters seems sensible.
The only problem I can foresee with this approach is that, due to the wonderful asymmetry, the basic marine can get upgraded and still be a viable option against later game aliens, whereas the reverse is not true. This makes it much more productive for marines to hold out to see what aliens did for the mid-game tech choice (because their upgraded basic marines can in theory hold out better than the basic unupgraded skulks), then get the appropriate upgrade to neutralise what the aliens did. You would really need to have the development of the counter weapons take long enough that they have to commit early to have a hope of not getting crushed by the aliens' new midgame unit.
<!--quoteo(post=2037266:date=Nov 29 2012, 04:46 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Nov 29 2012, 04:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only problem I can foresee with this approach is that ... the basic marine can get upgraded and still be a viable option against later game aliens, whereas the reverse is not true... You would really need to have the development of the counter weapons take long enough that they have to commit early to have a hope of not getting crushed by the aliens' new midgame unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The intent is that you need to make this choice earlygame in order to see the benefit midgame when Fades and Baby Oni start appearing. The "wait and see" approach would be the "basic weapon" simulation, you would need to balance it as a losing proposition for marines vs either "avalanche". Balance could also dictate whether or not marines would be able to hold out long enough to research the correct tech "after the fact". It really depends on whether you want to punish them for making the wrong choice or no choice.
The "marine tech" still being viable in endgame is part and parcel of marines in general. By that stage of the game the alien counter is the "True Onos", a no-holds barred 3 Hive nightmare that ignores "regular", anti-Fade, and anti-Baby tech equally.
Really there's no technical limitation on scaling alien classes to the number of Hives held, but from a gameplay standpoint you change from the midgame rush to a war of turtling and attrition.
Anyhow, I think I might take some time to peruse the LUA files and see if something simple can be mocked up for testing. It'd be nice to extend the midgame and shorten the endgame.
Comments
Fade 2016
Plenty of RTS games don't have a timer that defaults to your enemy winning???
In fact.,.. what RTS do you play that does this?
That sounds like survivor mode in L4D.. not a balanced RTS.
I'm still a rookie and my NS1 experience was years ago. However I'm getting back up to speed really fast and have already noshed plenty of marines. For me the bigger concern is actually the 50 minute pub game. There just isn't really great options on the marine side against a supported multi-Onos push. It has felt like Aliens can turtle up and just save rez to come back. In such an environment having Onos push as more of a soft counter would feel better. Thing is that the options are somewhat lacking.
Yet it also feels that Onos need to exist to allow Marines to have such a good turtle without it being game breaking...Even worse would be a counter that requires nothing dynamic to unlock. Turtle vs Turtle in pubs would be so terrible.
Now I like the resource change in comparison to my memories of NS1. However I think that resources are the right spot here. I think that Onos need some type of secondary cost.
One idea that comes to mind is having Onos cost an egg to upgrade. This would not hamper super late game "this ends now" multi-oni pushes but would change the way build paths into it work. It would raise the risk of an Onos when you don't have the economy to support it properly.
Another idea is having another resource type out there that could gate Onos.
I'm unsure and think a single change would just make Aliens to weak.
I am getting a sense there is a problem that needs to be discussed but "Onos Avalanche" is the wrong subject. I'll be mulling on this while I play.
...raise the risk of an Onos when you don't have the economy to support it properly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The best option is to pressure the enemy hive and RTs in order to spend as much time as possible versus Skulks. Skulks defending their hive are Skulks that aren't attacking your RTs. Otherwise you might as well say there aren't really great options on the alien side against a supported Exo and ARC push.
An unsupported 1 hive Onos is about as big a risk as you can get, and every counter is of ongoing benefit to marines. Obs to find him? W1 or 2 to take him out? Drop an armory at the entrance to your base once he enters and hose him while he's trapped. Boom, a ton of alien pres down the hole and a long wait before that person can Onos again.
If the Comm is caught completely offguard by an Onos after 6-8 minutes of nothing but skulks then I'm afraid you're dealing with a poor Comm. I'll concede there are situations where the Comm can do everything right and be failed by his marines, but with all skill being equal the buck stops at the Comm if a base-attacking Onos is not trapped or if upgrades have not been researched. Every 6 seconds spent turtling is more res gained for Onos.
I'm still a rookie and my NS1 experience was years ago. However I'm getting back up to speed really fast and have already noshed plenty of marines. For me the bigger concern is actually the 50 minute pub game. There just isn't really great options on the marine side against a supported multi-Onos push. It has felt like Aliens can turtle up and just save rez to come back. In such an environment having Onos push as more of a soft counter would feel better. Thing is that the options are somewhat lacking.
Yet it also feels that Onos need to exist to allow Marines to have such a good turtle without it being game breaking...Even worse would be a counter that requires nothing dynamic to unlock. Turtle vs Turtle in pubs would be so terrible.
Now I like the resource change in comparison to my memories of NS1. However I think that resources are the right spot here. I think that Onos need some type of secondary cost.
One idea that comes to mind is having Onos cost an egg to upgrade. This would not hamper super late game "this ends now" multi-oni pushes but would change the way build paths into it work. It would raise the risk of an Onos when you don't have the economy to support it properly.
Another idea is having another resource type out there that could gate Onos.
I'm unsure and think a single change would just make Aliens to weak.
I am getting a sense there is a problem that needs to be discussed but "Onos Avalanche" is the wrong subject. I'll be mulling on this while I play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most competitive games tend to be over by the time the onos avalanche takes place... and additionally, it's pretty rare for a competitive player to save that much res that long, so the avalanche tends to be at most maybe 1 onos.
It's more of a pub problem, where marines are basically retarded when it comes to killing hives. I was playing on a server with some pretty skilled folk for the most part by pubbing standards, and when it came time to hive rush, we had 4 dual exos, and they STILL took a solid 2 minutes to actually get the hive down. For the record, if 4 dual exos just focus fire they kill a hive in a single volley. Pub players have some SERIOUS problems when it comes to knowing which targets to pick.
It doesn't help that arcs are more sidegrade and more difficult to use than siege was in NS (although I think this will get better with time, we're just not used to it yet)
Regardless, it's more a phenomena of not really needing to spend res on fades and lerks because the marines aren't pressuring you to defend to the same degree, and not really being threatened in the midgame by marine teams after leap comes out (because none of the upgraded marine weapons are quite as potent to the pub game as HMG was). JP flamer is causing some new problems, but it's still quite a bit too expensive for the effect it has vs lifeforms, and there's just no hard counter to onos of any type. You can only make onos weaker in a specific postion, you can never just universally counter them regardless what economic investment you make.
I thought the same thing till I convinced some (skulk) teammates to go with me as a celerity gorge early game and destroyed the marine team. Myself and 2-3 skulks just went around the map taking out RT's and marine teams (this is an 8v8 game). Sure gorges are slow but with celerity I was able to keep up with and keep my little skulk brood alive (and they in turn kept me alive).
It may not be a natively intuitive strategy to a new player but it was pretty fun with players who were willing to work together.
As for why pub players save their money for the Onos avalanche, I think it's a couple things:
1. A lot of newer players have the mentality of always wanting to go for the biggest baddest endgame unit, and buying anything else is just delaying that goal. Same reason people play Starcraft FFAs so they can rush straight to Battlecruiser. Marines have the same problem with people never spending any of their money, then whining at the comm to research dual minigun exos once they have 75 res.
2. Lerks and Fades have a very steep skill curve. New players try them out, promptly get blasted and then all their res is gone. That leaves a bad taste in their mouth so they don't want to keep investing their PRes into learning to play Lerk/Fade properly. NS1 was able to mitigate this with Combat mode...
3. Lack of awareness of how much money they have. It can be pretty easy to just keep playing the vanilla class and forget that your PRes is piling up. So rather than making a decision at 30 res not to play Lerk and a decision at 50 res not to play Fade, they just don't think about it until they look down at their 60 PRes and think "well, might as well keep saving for Onos." I think there should be some sort of notification when you have enough money for a higher lifeform, similar to updgrade notices but separate from that.
As for why pub players save their money for the Onos avalanche, I think it's a couple things:
1. A lot of newer players have the mentality of always wanting to go for the biggest baddest endgame unit, and buying anything else is just delaying that goal. Same reason people play Starcraft FFAs so they can rush straight to Battlecruiser. Marines have the same problem with people never spending any of their money, then whining at the comm to research dual minigun exos once they have 75 res.
2. Lerks and Fades have a very steep skill curve. New players try them out, promptly get blasted and then all their res is gone. That leaves a bad taste in their mouth so they don't want to keep investing their PRes into learning to play Lerk/Fade properly. NS1 was able to mitigate this with Combat mode...
3. Lack of awareness of how much money they have. It can be pretty easy to just keep playing the vanilla class and forget that your PRes is piling up. So rather than making a decision at 30 res not to play Lerk and a decision at 50 res not to play Fade, they just don't think about it until they look down at their 60 PRes and think "well, might as well keep saving for Onos." I think there should be some sort of notification when you have enough money for a higher lifeform, similar to updgrade notices but separate from that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#1/2 - Not necessarily as there is a difference in viability between a Lerk/Fade and an Onos. While Lerk/Fade is arguably more fun to play and takes more skill than Onos, the Onos is a far more viable and forgiving combat unit for only 25 more res versus a Fade and far more accessible for the average player. Why would I want to risk playing Lerk/Fade when 1 good Shotgun Marine can ruin my day? I can keep an entire side of the map occupied with a single Onos without much risk to myself so long as I don't overextend. Besides I'm getting into the habit of telling my team as alien comm to NOT spend their pRes on anything but Onos and instead ask for a tRes egg drop for Lerk/Fade. Not like there's much to spend your tRes on until 3rd Hive is dropped. It also helps that the Skulk is a viable unit until Jetpacks come into play.
#3 - I have to agree with this, not on the whole lack of awareness part, but the whole stockpiling resources for lack of buying things. I have a habit of not spending res because you never know when you need someone to have 75 res to deploy an Onos. It's even more important for someone on the team to save for Onos thanks to 3rd Hive Onos egg drop. Fade/Lerk won't cut it when Marines have their entire tech tree operational and Aliens don't have a 3rd Hive. It may be possible if you have some really good Fade/Lerks patrolling the map, but my experience tells me that it's tough to crack a Marine tech point without a damage sponge like the Onos.
Quoted for truth. I'd a protacted endgame just the other night where one Onos stalled marines enough for the Skulks to break their train. Comm tried forward ARCs covered by Exos, but did not push into Hive. Didn't work. Eventually he pincer moved in after 10 minutes of every Kharaa player using all the res they had. Fun, but poor.
<!--quoteo(post=2036556:date=Nov 28 2012, 04:18 PM:name=Daxx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daxx @ Nov 28 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought the same thing till...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm thinking of something more attractive to new players than being a roving healspray. Every other class has something it can do decently alone, but the Gorge really doesn't. For the entry level player there's a lot of energy management between heal and spit, and matters don't improve when you're sitting beside your three OCs and overpriced Clogs.
Not sure you need Celery when you've got the awesome power of belly slide! I guess it depends on how long you intend to stay in marine territory?
<!--quoteo(post=2036562:date=Nov 28 2012, 04:26 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 28 2012, 04:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2036600:date=Nov 28 2012, 05:07 PM:name=PimpToad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PimpToad @ Nov 28 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036600"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It looks like we all agree that the fragility of Lerk and Fade make them less attractive than the very newbie friendly Onos. This takes us back to a main sticking point - skill disparity.
It would be interesting to see what would happen in a Fade explosion game involving the sort of marines who allow an Onos rush.
It would be interesting to see what would happen in a Fade explosion game involving the sort of marines who allow an Onos rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A Fade explosion is exactly what people complained about a while back in the beta, which led to the removal of res flow while dead(to stagger the rate of res gain). People played Fade back then, though I don't remember how they were different. Might even have been pre-Onos.
What I mean is, you're on a "timer" when you start the game. It's not literally a countdown timer, but in effect, it is, because usually you know that at "time W" the enemy will probably have "tech X, tech Y, or unit Z" which if I don't have "tech A, tech B, or unit C" to counter with, it's pretty much game. You can writhe for 5-10 minutes, but assuming equal player skill and no major mistakes, the game is decided when there's overwhelming tech or unit type advantage, or after a single huge skirmish is lost decisively by one side.
I've played supcom2 previously... quite a bit.
The analogy in NS2 would be marines allowing 4-5+ oni, and not having at least w2/a2 and sufficient jetpackers or exos to counter those oni. Once the aliens establish that kind of unit supremacy - which results from an overwhelming economic supremacy, it's pretty much over (again, assuming equal player skill and no major mistakes).
I do alot of *writhing* lately, mostly because no one gets Blink anymore (yet get spores before umbra, sigh), and startout gorges are few and far between. And if we finally get that happening, some clown starts whining that 'no one is saving for onos'.
Now that UWE has buffed Aliens with the Onos to 3rd hive (Buffed you say? Yes, because Aliens now actually have to play the game rather than sitting afk, things are suddenly exciting on the battlefield, OMG, could we be learning the importance of the second hive? Oh wait, no, it's just a nub calling for nano to be built ....) is there a chance Aliens could be futher buffed by removing the recent 100 extra armour for Onos?
Honestly, as the young parents amongst you know, sometimes you feel like your being cruel when your truly being kind :)
I've played supcom2 previously... quite a bit.
The analogy in NS2 would be marines allowing 4-5+ oni, and not having at least w2/a2 and sufficient jetpackers or exos to counter those oni. Once the aliens establish that kind of unit supremacy - which results from an overwhelming economic supremacy, it's pretty much over (again, assuming equal player skill and no major mistakes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Individually, this situation is not a problem. The problem is that currently, in NS2, there just is no A, B, or C. If they have 4-5 onos, you had better just hope those onos are bad, because if you try to counter them with exo's you will just lose everything on the map where the exo's currently are not, and if you try to counter them with jetpacks, you just don't have the firepower to actually take them down consistently. There is no real thing that effectively counters the onos rush aside from the onos being pretty bad, and your jetpacks being pretty spectacular.
A situation where you had to forgoe, lets say for example, weapons and armor 3 upgrades, to develop the anti-onos tech 5 minutes earlier if you expected the onos to breech at an earlier point would be fine. There would be a tactical reality to that. I either believe I do not need to account for too many onos based on the lifeforms I've already seen on the alien team, or I believe I do need to account early for the onos because the enemy team hasn't really been too much aside from skulk, I make that strategic decision and manipulate my build accordingly. But in NS2, there's no strategic decision to make.
You can easily do that. Sacrifice Weapons research in order to rush Dual Exosuits if you want to fight Oni on equal terms, or sacrifice late-game tech for a strong early push that can power through their almost-entirely-skulk-based-team. Shotguns for everyone, and Nanoshields on all the things.
The obvious flaw there is that forgoing Arms Lab investments just makes your Exos ######tier in their own way, so you pay for it regardless. You rushed Exos, but the Exos are now under-armed and armored.
This is hilariously bad against skilled intelligent onos. Yes, the onos cannot easily just kill the exos in open ground, but exo's can only have presence in the map at one place at a time, and onos are WAY WAY WAAAAAAAAAAAY more responsive. If the exo's leave the base, you lose the base, if the exo's don't leave the base, you lose your other tech point and all your resource nodes. If the exo's push towards a hive, you just lose everything.
Onos are the counter to Exos when the Onos know what they're doing, regardless of how skilled the Exo players are. Not the other way around.
At least with a very skilled jetpacker you can work around the onos and do damage to alien locations while the onos struggles to keep up.
I think this may be a factor. Another factor is the relative "uselessness" of the gorge.
If I recall correctly, the only gorges you saw in the first 3-4 minutes of NS1 were for building things like res towers and upgrade chambers. Even then, once their task was complete they typically ran in to die or just typed kill in the console. This aspect has obviously since been removed, but they haven't been made necessary in any other way. Thus, you see almost no early game gorges, which in my opinion (and I'm sure most people would agree with me if they think about it) did more to disperse a tech explosion than any RFK system ever did.
The problem comes in when you consider that, the best way to make a lifeform like a gorge better is to make it support better, since it is a support lifeform. However, since I think the skulk/marine balance (early game at least) is pretty good right now, this may tip the scale in an undesirable way. Thus I would propose making the gorge more self sustainable, a sort of "lone gorge" if you will. Only for the early game mind you, his support role truly comes into its own in the late game, so that should remain unchanged. Also, if there was more of a variable res cost associated with playing gorge, I think res amounts would be far more scattered than they are now. At the moment, a gorge costs either 10 res, or 19 res. There is no middle ground, and basically nobody goes further than 19 res. A system which allowed more res expenditure by choice would be nice.
Basically, if gorges actually provided some early game (marine avoidable) benefit, you may see teams always having at least one, and maybe two. And if one went down, and he had over spent on resources, you may see many players having to spend the ten res on gorge early game.
Which sadly is what happens to Marines in competitive play. It's a time bomb before the Onos/Fade critical mass gets you.
It's too bad there's never been a version of NS where it's not either one or the other. In the later patches of NS1, a marine team could camp on 2 nodes until the team was geared up with JP HMG, and just immediately sweep the map as if the aliens weren't even there.
Now it's more the opposite, onos are so SO brutally powerful, and at 3 hives the comm can drop infinity of them. We need a bit of an RPS mechanic, where if you have too many of whatever counters onos, fades become powerful, and if you have too many of whatever counters fades, onos become powerful. Shift the metagame to rely on compositions and not trying to get too much mileage out of something predictable.
Actually, this is the best argument I can think of for Temphage's 6th lifeform (no idea what it would actually be though). You could potentially have a 6 way RPS in the late game rather than a 4 way, which could be pretty cool.
Except that it doesn't. I said to skip Weapons research, which Exosuits do not benefit from.
If you ignore all the things I said about how to intelligently plan for Oni and let half of your development fall through the cracks, you are indeed boned. That doesn't mean there aren't easily implementable and notably effective build/spec orders for nearly every enemy strategy, including early Oni.
Its all about proper squad tactics, onoses really aren't that powerful.
Fades also suck, tbh they should just be worked in as focus fades from the start, more dmg, slower attack.
That being said, i still find overall, aliens are far more powerful than marines. We usually try to lock them down from 2nd IP, and by the time the onoses get to the game, the marines are held off in their base, res starving, and we just NEED the onoses to tank for bile gorges to end the game.
But wait... it is already well known that marines turtling is quite a big problem, and can result in Onos going down like flies against massed light marines, even when they have absolutely no resource income to speak of. So how can it be that the timer is so strict, but somehow means nothing when the timer reaches zero in the biggest way possible (when basically every player on the alien team suddenly has the ability to go Onos).
Then ask yourself why it is that the aliens are not on a similar timer. We all like to talk about why exos suck, but they do a hell of a lot of damage, take a hell of a alot of damage, and stack really well. I've been killed as an Onos by 2 exos before I even got up to them. 1v1 they may not be on par, but in groups they can put up a pretty even fight against equal Onos numbers.
So then why is this happening?
2 reasons: <b>speed </b>and <b>predictability</b>.
Onos relocate rapidly, and are typically not expected, and show up unpredictably. Exos are slow as hell, can be heard from a mile away, and the aliens have ample time to prepare for their arrival. When Oni are attacking turtling marines, they are 100% expected and their speed in relocation counts for nothing, and thus the Onos themselves count for almost nothing. I think it is this that needs to be addressed, and if it is, all other problems should fall away. Either make the Onos highly predictable or slow, or make the Exo fast.
I propose making these two "super units" audible throughout the map. Not for individual marines, but for commanders. if a commander is within 3 rooms of an Onos running around, he should hear him, and be able to pinpoint his location and direction with relative ease. The same goes for alien commanders and Exos. This will affect almost nothing though, as the alien team almost always knows exactly where the exos are. Silence would make it harder to pinpoint an Onos, but the rattling environment should still allow it to be possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2037003:date=Nov 28 2012, 10:16 PM:name=Locklear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Locklear @ Nov 28 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2037003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which sadly is what happens to Marines in competitive play. It's a time bomb before the Onos/Fade critical mass gets you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Basically this.
The unfortunate fact of the game is that while one, two, maybe three oni is manageable, 4+ becomes kind of impossible to counter (assuming they're above average players).
Sure, you can have a+ jetpackers or spam as many exos as oni, but the fact is that due to the oni's mobility, they can clean out everywhere where the exos are not (as others have already pointed out above), or even go around the exos and hit some chair while they're walking forward to some hive.
Well, my point being that if you're being boned just as badly by an "explosion" of Fades as you are by Oni then the issue is either your Commanding, your team, or aliens just being insanely overpowered. Probably in that order, too.
<!--quoteo(post=2036831:date=Nov 29 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 29 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2036831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that currently, in NS2, there just is no A, B, or C... There is no real thing that effectively counters the onos rush aside from the onos being pretty bad, and your jetpacks being pretty spectacular.
A situation where you had to forgoe, lets say for example, weapons and armor 3 upgrades, to develop the anti-onos tech 5 minutes earlier if you expected the onos to breech at an earlier point would be fine. There would be a tactical reality to that. I either believe I do not need to account for too many onos based on the lifeforms I've already seen on the alien team, or I believe I do need to account early for the onos because the enemy team hasn't really been too much aside from skulk, I make that strategic decision and manipulate my build accordingly. But in NS2, there's no strategic decision to make.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just to clarify, are you saying that there is no effective counter to "expected" Onos in an "all things being equal" game?
If that state of affairs is indeed correct (which would be inherently hard to prove in pub play but should be painfully obvious in "pro" play) then the easiest solution I can think of is to revamp the research "tree" on both sides.
Aliens could have the option of "early" Onos tree (or "Baby Onos" class) vs a Fade tree, and converging on a "real" Onos as an endgame-only class.
Marines could have the option of an anti-Baby Onos tree vs an anti-Fade tree.
Hypothetically, at the simplest level this could be making "true" Onos grossly expensive/Hivelocked, with the Baby Onos being the current "no limits" version, and adjusting armour and damage types so that Marine anti-Fade weaponry is largely ineffective against Baby Onos and vice versa. Endgame tech remains "as is".
The aliens still get their "explosion" newbie friendly tank, but are penalised if they focus exclusively on it. Marines get a tactical option that allows them to prepare for Baby Onos. Endgame is unaffected because proper Onos is still doing what proper Onos is meant to do.
You could experiment with this by modifying the balance.lua, etc. to take into account the proposed midgame changes (ie current Onos now becomes Baby Onos, choose 2 existing researchable marine weapons to be placeholder anti-Fade and anti-Baby tech) and view results over time to see if the "avalanche" can be planned for and countered. In this test we would ignore the endgame, limit the results to:
Baby Onos "rush" vs basic weapon
Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon
Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon
Fade "rush" vs basic weapon
Fade "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon
Fade "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon
50-50 rush vs basic weapon
50-50 rush vs anti-Fade weapon
50-50 rush vs anti-Baby weapon
50-50 rush vs 50-50 weapons
This would give a baseline (the basic weapon) and tests to help balance the appropriate marine counter tech.
With favourable results in midgame you'd then need to do proper work modding in "True Onos" and "Marine Tech" to see how endgame is affected. I would count an unaffected endgame but extended midgame as an overall success. For tres costing I'd suggest both marine techs to have equal costs, and high enough so that it's an "either or" proposition in the earlygame. Baby Onos would have the pres cost of current Onos. Everything else unchanged.
It's very rock, paper, scissors, but does this sound like an idea worth trying?
Just to clarify, are you saying that there is no effective counter to "expected" Onos in an "all things being equal" game?
If that state of affairs is indeed correct (which would be inherently hard to prove in pub play but should be painfully obvious in "pro" play) then the easiest solution I can think of is to revamp the research "tree" on both sides.
Aliens could have the option of "early" Onos tree (or "Baby Onos" class) vs a Fade tree, and converging on a "real" Onos as an endgame-only class.
Marines could have the option of an anti-Baby Onos tree vs an anti-Fade tree.
Hypothetically, at the simplest level this could be making "true" Onos grossly expensive/Hivelocked, with the Baby Onos being the current "no limits" version, and adjusting armour and damage types so that Marine anti-Fade weaponry is largely ineffective against Baby Onos and vice versa. Endgame tech remains "as is".
The aliens still get their "explosion" newbie friendly tank, but are penalised if they focus exclusively on it. Marines get a tactical option that allows them to prepare for Baby Onos. Endgame is unaffected because proper Onos is still doing what proper Onos is meant to do.
You could experiment with this by modifying the balance.lua, etc. to take into account the proposed midgame changes (ie current Onos now becomes Baby Onos, choose 2 existing researchable marine weapons to be placeholder anti-Fade and anti-Baby tech) and view results over time to see if the "avalanche" can be planned for and countered. In this test we would ignore the endgame, limit the results to:
Baby Onos "rush" vs basic weapon
Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon
Baby Onos "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon
Fade "rush" vs basic weapon
Fade "rush" vs anti-Fade weapon
Fade "rush" vs anti-Baby weapon
50-50 rush vs basic weapon
50-50 rush vs anti-Fade weapon
50-50 rush vs anti-Baby weapon
50-50 rush vs 50-50 weapons
This would give a baseline (the basic weapon) and tests to help balance the appropriate marine counter tech.
With favourable results in midgame you'd then need to do proper work modding in "True Onos" and "Marine Tech" to see how endgame is affected. I would count an unaffected endgame but extended midgame as an overall success. For tres costing I'd suggest both marine techs to have equal costs, and high enough so that it's an "either or" proposition in the earlygame. Baby Onos would have the pres cost of current Onos. Everything else unchanged.
It's very rock, paper, scissors, but does this sound like an idea worth trying?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are some good ideas in there - and you're spot on with the need for Rock-Paper-Scissors. While an all-team 'full' Onos isn't an issue (ie you shouldn't have let them get to that stage), having two viable mid-game units with two appropriate counters seems sensible.
The only problem I can foresee with this approach is that, due to the wonderful asymmetry, the basic marine can get upgraded and still be a viable option against later game aliens, whereas the reverse is not true. This makes it much more productive for marines to hold out to see what aliens did for the mid-game tech choice (because their upgraded basic marines can in theory hold out better than the basic unupgraded skulks), then get the appropriate upgrade to neutralise what the aliens did. You would really need to have the development of the counter weapons take long enough that they have to commit early to have a hope of not getting crushed by the aliens' new midgame unit.
I'm just waffling now, stop me.
Roo
The intent is that you need to make this choice earlygame in order to see the benefit midgame when Fades and Baby Oni start appearing. The "wait and see" approach would be the "basic weapon" simulation, you would need to balance it as a losing proposition for marines vs either "avalanche". Balance could also dictate whether or not marines would be able to hold out long enough to research the correct tech "after the fact". It really depends on whether you want to punish them for making the wrong choice or no choice.
The "marine tech" still being viable in endgame is part and parcel of marines in general. By that stage of the game the alien counter is the "True Onos", a no-holds barred 3 Hive nightmare that ignores "regular", anti-Fade, and anti-Baby tech equally.
Really there's no technical limitation on scaling alien classes to the number of Hives held, but from a gameplay standpoint you change from the midgame rush to a war of turtling and attrition.
Anyhow, I think I might take some time to peruse the LUA files and see if something simple can be mocked up for testing. It'd be nice to extend the midgame and shorten the endgame.