I do think it needs to be fixed. Currently, NS2 is a tech race to who gets Onos/Exos first, pretty much. That in itself is "all right" but the gameplay could certainly be more fun and creative than a race. I would prefer a resource and territory control game vs a tech race first to "this" wins game. By territory control I might battles over territory over the long run and not a sudden "the conclusion of the race has been reached, there's an onos/exo on the field. Game over".
<!--quoteo(post=2035034:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:42 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 26 2012, 08:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easy fix: set a max. limit. Lets say max. three Onoses (same way for exos!)
Complicated fix:
Redesign the aliens. Do not allow aliens to evolve into higher lifeforms. Higher Lifeforms are given only by the khammander. So we need a new System for aliens to spend their Pres. One example could be: the commander upgrades still the hive into shade,shift,crag. When the shift-hive growth up and an upgradespur is build, the aliens choose and buy their upgrades themselves. The player could spend now 10 Pres for permanent celerity on skulks and another 10 Pres for permanent adrenalin on skulks . Hes now able to choose between celerity and adrenalin for skulks as long the spur is up (only one spur needed for both upgrades). If he want to use permanent celerity/adrenalin on fade/gorge/onos/lerk he needs to spend additional 10 Pres. Same way for permanent abilitys like leap for 15-20 Pres. Set the max. Pres to 30. If reached --> the now gained ressources goes to the khammander.
Complicated complicated fix:
Use previous solution + add some new crazy abilitys to the aliens that costs Pres one use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really a fan of those fixes. Hard limits on lifeform counts seems like a cheap way to control the flow of games, and would limit the diversity in strategies. Your complicated fix drastically changes the game too much and tries to fix things that aren't broken. It also won't keep the khammander from saving up res to drop multiple onos eggs, unless you combine it with a hard limit, and that would make the complicated fix redundant anyway.
Just give players enough reasons to evolve into non-onos lifeforms and less people will save up for the onos. For instance, gorge and lerk are good value for money, fade less so.
<!--quoteo(post=2035047:date=Nov 26 2012, 05:50 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 05:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do think it needs to be fixed. Currently, NS2 is a tech race to who gets Onos/Exos first, pretty much. That in itself is "all right" but the gameplay could certainly be more fun and creative than a race. I would prefer a resource and territory control game vs a tech race first to "this" wins game. By territory control I might battles over territory over the long run and not a sudden "the conclusion of the race has been reached, there's an onos/exo on the field. Game over".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like Dawn of War 2? I like the Idea. Maybe we need to change the objectives.
Let both teams starts with 5000 points. There are 9 RTs on the field. If your team own 3 RTs and your enemy just 2, the enemy starts losing points. If u have 4 and your enemy just 2, your enemy is losing points faster. If both teams own the same numbers of Rts, the points are stucked. If on team reached 0 points, the game is over. <---- this wont fix the current issue but would improved the gameplay.
Instead of RTs to save those points, UWE should implement "victory-points" on special locations that need to take and hold. For exampel: Map Veil. One victory point at marine/alien base and the third point at nano-grid.( both Rts must be removed ) <--- could fix the current issue. The idea is to force both teams to spend there ressources to take and hold those points at all cost, because there could be not enough time to let save the whole team enough res to explode with 8 exos/onos.
U can still and simply destroy the enemy base. There are just 2 different ways to win now. That would also fix that goddamn boring endgame of turteling marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2034933:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:53 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 07:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Res for kill is IMO a terrible idea which is beyond the scope and discussion of this thread. There are other threads where it has been discussed.
a.k.a don't reinvent the wheel? A horrible mentality which undermines innovation and efficiency. If people hadn't reinvented the wheel, we'd be in the stone age right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually have several patents so don't challenge my mentality.
<!--quoteo(post=2034955:date=Nov 26 2012, 10:18 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 26 2012, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was broken, so they fixed it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS1 RFK system was not broken and didn't need changed. Only bad players whined about it. The only imbalance in NS1 was the varying balance according to player count which could have been fixed in other ways. I have not played enough of NS2 to be conclusive if the balance also changes with player count, especially with all the changes.
i find it hilarious when noobs 'create' problems which don't exist like it's already decided. they choose to ignore any replies from experienced or perceptive players who disagree. then they put on their serious cap's and discuss risible solutions for these faux problems.
The reason why players tend to save up res for so many Onos is that Fades need Blink to really be somewhat viable. And by the time the Khammander actually gets two Hives up and researched Blink (after Leap, Bile Bomb and Spores, since those are upgrades for lifeforms that are likely on the field already), the players likely have nearly enough res for going Onos already.
This all comes back to the introduction of alien com.... Without forcing players to save pres for hives and upgrade they are all free to save for onos.... Both teams have this ability you could have 4-5 exo but because onos>exo this isn't the issue.
Solution give players ways to sink res other then saving for onos. (Gorge structures)
Also blink doesn't seem to get researched until I have 65-70 res.(this may be due to tres onos from previous builds)
<!--quoteo(post=2034788:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:08 PM:name=Cat-Poker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cat-Poker @ Nov 25 2012, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would recommend telling your marines to go out and kill harvesters. Have a few ninjas on your team go and try and kill the upgrades. Pressure, Pressure, Pressure. Sick of pub players taking a second tech point and sitting there building turrets till onii appear, it's not going to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, right here. In nearly every game that I've been a marine comm, the game had been lost by complacent players who sit around 'defending' our two tech points and hoarding res for exos. I'll use Docking as an example, I had a team that actually knew what to do and how to be aggressive - we had teams of three or more at East Wing and Maintenance, with Locker Rooms as our second tech point and with three outside PGs set up (East Wing, Locker Rooms, Onos Bar). I put forward armories and obs at Maintenance and East Wing to help support those pushes. I also had a (self-appointed) ninja run through Courtyard and kill Stability repeatedly, occasionally sneaking into the hive and sniping an upgrade.
I went for a/w upgrades, JPs, GLs and we killed the Generator hive with an aggressive marine push along with ARC support. Those ARCs moved to North Point and encountered an Onos. I only had 2 JPs defending the ARCs, but I had 6 - 7 ARCs and the Onos couldn't kill them fast enough to prevent me from nuking the hive from orbit (I actually nano-shielded the ARC that he was attacking, and he didn't switch targets). All of this was only made possible by marines PUSHING East Wing (their main hive was Departures) and PUSHING ball court/maintenance in the early game, occasionally killing Stability Monitoring. The end result is that the aliens had a total of two or three res nodes the entire game. There wasn't a single exo in sight until the very last minute when the hive was being ARCed.
Lot of discussion around fixes, reimplementations, etc.
Let's keep it simple.
If you are seeing "early" Onos, consider that each Onos has saved every last drop of their res. You have been facing basic (or near basic) skulks for the duration of the game so far. Have you been pressuring their RTs? Have you been building RTs? Have you attacked their Hive? Have you seized a Hive location? Lots of "no"s mean Onos.
I absolutely agree that the Onos is the skill-friendly option for many players. It's big, has lots of health, automatically uses the right attack, and has a nice stomp down the line. If you're playing defensively then by the time you're dead you've probably enough res to Onos again.
Contrast with the Lerk, which requires map knowledge and flight skills, or the Fade, which is an expensive skulk if you can't SS/Blink. Lerks and Fades are vicious in the right hands, but in the hands of the newbie they end up as res sinks. Sped into a wall? Dead. Clipped on a railing? Dead. Didn't see the marine first? Dead.
You can see the attraction, right? "I spend 50 res and die while helping my team, now I'm a skulk" vs "I spend 75 res and won't die so long as I run away real good". I'm sure marine players prefer the newbie Fade to the newbie Onos, but the secret is this - they're the same player.
A newbie Onos is not half as dangerous as people think. The marines have had ample time to prepare, to counter. If all you've seen is skulks then you can pretty much be guaranteed the Onos is coming. Grab those shotties, push into the hive, and make scrambled eggs. Even bog-standard axe marines chopping at a hive will trigger enough warning messages to freak out an alien team. Don't like the aggressive route? Drop an armory or two. Personally I think you should be dropping them BEHIND an Onos when it's trying to pressure your base (nothing funnier than an Onos blindly trying to escape past an armory) but deterrent is just as good.
You cannot tell me that in an equal skill situation the Commander has not noticed that he's only facing Skulks. If a player has had the time to sit on his res until Onos then the Commander has had ample opportunity to head this strategy off.
As a closing point, I feel it is very poor sportsmanship to complain about an opponent using his skills to their fullest. I concede that a player who sits on his res can cripple aliens in the early to mid game, but that is a problem for his fellow alien players. A marine player cannot complain that an opponent, who knows he can't play as a Fade or Lerk, chooses to save for the only class he can play.
TL:DR All skill being equal, complacent players are always going to lose. Don't fault your opponent for doing you a favour and ending it quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=2035085:date=Nov 26 2012, 02:55 PM:name=Spetz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Spetz @ Nov 26 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually have several patents so don't challenge my mentality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034991:date=Nov 26 2012, 11:39 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 26 2012, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think exo avalanche is as big an issue, at least not from the perspective of core mechanic problems. This is because marines are far more willing to spend their res on things. Shotguns, mines, welders. They are all bought in abundance by marines of all skill levels. As a commander, I sometimes purposefully engineer an exo avalanche scenario but upgrading absolutely no purchasable items. This obviously has its consequences, but since its a conscious choice, I think its fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think its more the fact that in comp play people understand the importance of killing res towers and most alien comms dont understand the importance of not lolspamming 1000 harvesters even if a marine is constantly walking around killing them over and over.
A harvester that does not earn back more than the 15 (10 for harvester and 5 for cysts to get to it) res investment to build it, is a waste of time and a pointless res investment. Even if it earns 16 res back, that still means you have wasted 2 mins and 21 seconds of game time to earn 1 res... and essentially locked your 15 res away in a pointless investment for 2 mins...
I don't understand what the big deal is about "tech explosions" and other rubbish like it. In any RTS game, you're taking quite the risk teching up as it usually means you have to cut workers/units to afford upgrades. The burden then falls to your opponent to either tech or exploit the window of opportunity while your foe is teching.
In NS2 against alien this means exploting the fact that they are skulks for a sizable portion of the game until they evolve. Without the 2-hive tres Onos drop, the pres Onos appears at roughly 9-10 minutes from my experience. If Marines weren't able to do any significant teching or economic damage to delay the Onos during this time then that's their problem.
It's even worse now thanks to the 3-hive tres Onos. If the Aliens can't secure a 3rd Hive and the initial pres Onos push is repulsed, then the Marines have to royally screw up for Aliens to have a shot at winning. You only really have yourself and your team to blame if Aliens can afford to Skulk for that long.
Though the issue is more that the Fade isn't really as useful as the Onos. Fade is a glass cannon and Onos is a tank. And for only 25 extra res, I'd rather save up for the Onos or get a Lerk if I feel like flying around. Plus why bother spending pres on Fade when your comm can just drop Fade eggs? Not like there's much else to do with tres until 3rd Hive anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2034881:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:06 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 26 2012, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Onos was never supposed to be a front-line combat unit. The implementation of Bone Shield was supposed to allow it to provide damage absorption and cover for reduced maneuverability and an inability to retreat. It was billed as a lifeform that would distract opponents' focus while his team did the killing, a major event without being incredibly strong or a straight upgrade to any other lifeforms. Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. The technical challenges involved in implementing his abilities have necessitated a lifeform with massive HP, unprecedented damage, and impressive maneuverability, an "ultimate" form that was never supposed to exist. Anything less would result in a giant, slow target with no way to effectively contribute to combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please tell me that this is really true. I though the bone shield idea was discarded. If the Onos play style would turn out in a more supportive role you described that would be awesome. No silly roflsromping Oni anymore because flanking an Onos would be actually dangerous. When do UWE want to implement the 'new' Onos, when it's done? Or is there a half certain release date or time slot?
<!--quoteo(post=2034922:date=Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM:name=Gatty)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gatty @ Nov 25 2012, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't perceived the 'onos avalanche' to be a problem. It tends to be pretty slow and without intermediate lifeforms aliens don't do terribly well. Saying that, I was thinking about some kind of higher lifeform limit tied to the number of hives.
I don't care much about the actual numbers, but it would make everyone saving for onos less useful, while encouraging the use of lerk/fade. I could see it being a problem in very late game if a significant number of exos are on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Onos Bone Shield sounds like a terrible idea simply because of how the alien lifeforms function / cost. They're built off of the concept of class-based gameplay, where you basically NEED all five classes, but players can't freely change classes, they're punished for attempting to do so, and because the concept isn't "many classes that are on the same level", instead you have the Onos which is a better unit than the Fade which is a better unit than the Skulk, simply because they're "higher tech" and "cost more".
In other words, while the concept of this is sound by itself:
" Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. "
It doesn't work when you demand that a player dump a whopping 75 pres into simply being a support unit. Battlefield wouldn't work if you could only play a medic or engineer after you've taken half the team's tickets, you need all the classes available at once (except snipers, because ###### them).
When it comes to a shotgun, an LMG, or an Exosuit, they all do the same thing - shoot bullets. There's no 'role' that needs to be filled with a shotgun, it's just there to help you kill more. As such, when a marine loses his shotgun, it's not the end of the world, nor is their team tied to a ridiculous concept such as forcing a player into a role they don't want simply because their team will lose if they don't have it.
Boy wouldn't TF2 be more fun if you all started with Pyros and could only change classes once you earned enough cash from kills to do so? And when you die, you spawn as a Pyro again? No wait, that would totally ruin the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2035200:date=Nov 26 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't work when you demand that a player dump a whopping 75 pres into simply being a support unit. Battlefield wouldn't work if you could only play a medic or engineer after you've taken half the team's tickets, you need all the classes available at once (except snipers, because ###### them).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like playing bitey bitey spikey spikey lerk, but I like playing spore and umbra support Lerk far more. I think it comes down to personal preference really. A version of the Onos that is more support than attack? Sounds like my ideal lifeform to be honest.
<!--quoteo(post=2034485:date=Nov 25 2012, 05:25 PM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 25 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate to say it, but lowering the stock income from RTs/Harvesters for players and adding RFK is the simplest fix for this.
The other obvious fix would be making the fade useful ---> but then you just have fade explosions.
What about res for POINTS? Add assist points, balance the points given from destroying buildings. Yea this can "snowball" but that's how RTS games work; your small tactical victory adds to your win. I think this is a better way to stagger when life-forms show up without encouraging people to play selfishly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Makes sense - so good players get 3 minutes onos. While bad players are punished with skulk for eternity.
<!--quoteo(post=2035200:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:34 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 26 2012, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Onos Bone Shield sounds like a terrible idea simply because of how the alien lifeforms function / cost. They're built off of the concept of class-based gameplay, where you basically NEED all five classes, but players can't freely change classes, they're punished for attempting to do so, and because the concept isn't "many classes that are on the same level", instead you have the Onos which is a better unit than the Fade which is a better unit than the Skulk, simply because they're "higher tech" and "cost more".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course one has to rethink the whole balancing when the role of a class is shifted so immensely.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->" Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Send your entire team Exo and you've got nobody to do the actual building and repairing,...(yes except MACs, don't bother me with facts ;) , but you need a bunch of them to be effective)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't work when you demand that a player dump a whopping 75 pres into simply being a support unit. Battlefield wouldn't work if you could only play a medic or engineer after you've taken half the team's tickets, you need all the classes available at once (except snipers, because ###### them).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Rethinking, re-balancing etc. see above. And you have free skulks at least and the whole idea has to be proven wrong first by trying it out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When it comes to a shotgun, an LMG, or an Exosuit, they all do the same thing - shoot bullets. There's no 'role' that needs to be filled with a shotgun, it's just there to help you kill more. As such, when a marine loses his shotgun, it's not the end of the world, nor is their team tied to a ridiculous concept such as forcing a player into a role they don't want simply because their team will lose if they don't have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ehm...what?!? Of course does an exosuit, grenade launcher or flamethrower change your role! Exos can't build, GLers have to attack from behind marines lines because they can protect them selves, flamethrowers have an utilizing and supporting role. Loosing a class is harder than loosing a weapon, well let me here pull the asymmetry card. ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Boy wouldn't TF2 be more fun if you all started with Pyros and could only change classes once you earned enough cash from kills to do so? And when you die, you spawn as a Pyro again? No wait, that would totally ruin the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No idea whether good or bad, just played the tutorials of TF2 and thought meh.
Pre build 230, Onos egg cost 115 tRes (includes second hive w/ 150s build time) and approx. 180 seconds of build/evolve everything (w/o Gorge aid). We agree that this is cheap in terms of res and time.
Build 230 , Onos egg cost 155 tRes (includes second & third hive w/ 180s build time each) and approx. 390 seconds in build/evolve everything (w/o Gorge aid). We agree that this is correct amount of res and time, however, getting a third hive is considerably harder, especially maps with 4 tech points.
My solution is to make the Khammander ability to evolve eggs researchable first. With first hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop basic eggs (Gorge and Lerk) for 10 tRes with 60s research time. Once Khammander obtained second hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop advance eggs (Fade and Onos) for 30 tRes with 120s research time. These numbers can be tweaked further. I am just providing an example. Idea is to keep the new res and time of build 230 with the hive requirement from pre build 230.
<!--quoteo(post=2035097:date=Nov 26 2012, 09:09 AM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 26 2012, 09:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i find it hilarious when noobs 'create' problems which don't exist like it's already decided. they choose to ignore any replies from experienced or perceptive players who disagree. then they put on their serious cap's and discuss risible solutions for these faux problems.
keep it up guys, it's most entertaining!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Seriously, I've only been checking this thread to be amused.
<!--quoteo(post=2035260:date=Nov 26 2012, 03:46 PM:name=ktr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ktr @ Nov 26 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pre build 230, Onos egg cost 115 tRes (includes second hive w/ 150s build time) and approx. 180 seconds of build/evolve everything (w/o Gorge aid). We agree that this is cheap in terms of res and time.
Build 230 , Onos egg cost 155 tRes (includes second & third hive w/ 180s build time each) and approx. 390 seconds in build/evolve everything (w/o Gorge aid). We agree that this is correct amount of res and time, however, getting a third hive is considerably harder, especially maps with 4 tech points.
My solution is to make the Khammander ability to evolve eggs researchable first. With first hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop basic eggs (Gorge and Lerk) for 10 tRes with 60s research time. Once Khammander obtained second hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop advance eggs (Fade and Onos) for 30 tRes with 120s research time. These numbers can be tweaked further. I am just providing an example. Idea is to keep the new res and time of build 230 with the hive requirement from pre build 230.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The new 3-hive onos drops isn't balanced because of its increased (+40) res cost. It is more balanced than before because of the increased difficulty of taking and holding 3 hives. I don't think adding a 40 (or 30 in your case) res cost to onos drops fixes anything. It just delays the onos by a minute and 6-10m onos becomes 7-11m onos. Still not fun to play against and still a timer that marines have to beat.
The pres onos are still available at second hive. You just actually have to earn them in a reasonable timeframe and use other lifeforms to get there instead of relying on the onos drop crutch.
I prefer Gorge over everything, but the game is just so boring for Gorges that the moment I hit 75 res (since I'm staying gorge the whole time), it's just hurting my team NOT to go onos...so why not.
Typical alien gameplay for me:
1. Skulk and ninja RTs left and right and ambush marines who try to rebuild AFTER the RT is dropped and not finished rebuilding yet.
2. Once we have one upgrade, I go gorge for rest of game trying to keep marines from reaching our res towers
3. Oh, I have 100 res? Umm, okay. Guess I'll Onos because I'm HURTING my team by not going Onos if I can afford it.
4. Everyone Onos rushes marine start power node. GG
It's quite...boring. I want a reason to be a dedicated Gorge and a reason to utilize the res that I have. Res shouldn't be ONLY for upgrading to a "better" lifeform.
<!--quoteo(post=2035034:date=Nov 26 2012, 06:42 AM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Nov 26 2012, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easy fix: set a max. limit. Lets say max. three Onoses (same way for exos!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I LOLd. There's no problem to begin with, never mind this unnecessarily stupid "fix" lol.
The game is working as intended. If marines don't win against crappy skulks before a wave of 4+ oni appears, they deserve to lose, very badly.
NS2 is a game of quick skirmishes leading to a final victory, not a turtling game of exo and onos spam. I thought it's been 4 weeks since release already... or has it?
<!--quoteo(post=2034751:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:14 PM:name=hus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hus @ Nov 25 2012, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the average pub marine, I just don't see any return on investment (early game) unless you are flooded in resources. Unfortunately most people overrate their ability and will purchase one as soon as they are available.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't upgrade them until weapons 1 is finished for that reason (you need to sink 6 pellets on non-cara skulks before, 5 after. And likewise for Cara 8 pellets vs 7 pellets)
Weapon 1 shotty marines just feel dangerous where W0 ones feel anemic because of that 1 less pellet that has to be hit.
[edit] there's several configurations of 5 pellets that work pretty well on the current shotgun at a reasonable range, where as the 6 pellet configurations have to be VERY perfectly hit on the skulk while he's quite close, they're pretty wide.
I've only seen this vs. awful marine teams who were already getting their asses caved in by lerks and skulks so I'm pretty sure this is a nonissue. If fades were stronger you'd see a fade avalanche instead. Most losing marine teams get 2 CCs and 3 or 4 res nodes and then seem to give up on being aggressive.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2035280:date=Nov 26 2012, 01:12 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 26 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035280"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I LOLd. There's no problem to begin with, never mind this unnecessarily stupid "fix" lol.
The game is working as intended. If marines don't win against crappy skulks before a wave of 4+ oni appears, they deserve to lose, very badly.
NS2 is a game of quick skirmishes leading to a final victory, not a turtling game of exo and onos spam. I thought it's been 4 weeks since release already... or has it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A) That means there's a set timer for Marines to beat else they lose, and this was never designed to be this way, or proposed as such in Charlie's high level design docs. B) The game you are describing NS2 of being is a result of the symptom, and all that you know. So while i can't say how long you've actually been playing this game, most know that any game has the potential to last 60 seconds or an hour and thirty.. This description of "quick skirmish leading to a final victory" is not representative and if you feel that it is, this is once again only because this is what you know - the symptom of the issue has caused this.
edit: but for the record, i too found Mr Greedy's suggestion to be shortsighted, not scaling with playercounts + using an artificial cap in lieu of proper role implementation.
I don't see this as a very complicated issue. People choose certain things based on how they weigh the effects. If people are saving for Onos, they obviously believe that it is more effective for them to give up the ability to evolve into other lifeforms for the whole match and wait to evolve into an Onos.
I find that individual players are far more able to measure their own worth than anyone else, so, unless they have yet to try or become familiar with the other lifeforms, it would seem that this trend would be indicative of a clear fact; that a later Onos is superior to an early lerk/fade.
Now, if we balance were to be roughly 50/50 in general ( for smaller/larger and pub/competetive games ), then we would need to justify these changes in another light. I believe that, in this case, most people would agree that it is fairly boring for strategy and gameplay as a whole for two classes of aliens to be overlooked so often.
I personally am a Lerk at heart, and I always go Lerk whenever I can. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to buff them, but I could see fades using a bit of love. I know Charlie would be against it, but I think adding metabolism back to the fade would be something to consider.
<!--quoteo(post=2035497:date=Nov 26 2012, 07:29 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Nov 26 2012, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) That means there's a set timer for Marines to beat else they lose, and this was never designed to be this way, or proposed as such in Charlie's high level design docs. B) The game you are describing NS2 of being is a result of the symptom, and all that you know. So while i can't say how long you've actually been playing this game, most know that any game has the potential to last 60 seconds or an hour and thirty.. This description of "quick skirmish leading to a final victory" is not representative and if you feel that it is, this is once again only because this is what you know - the symptom of the issue has caused this.
edit: but for the record, i too found Mr Greedy's suggestion to be shortsighted, not scaling with playercounts + using an artificial cap in lieu of proper role implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what Charlie intended, but like any RTS game, you're on a timer when you start and things usually escalate very rapidly after some territorial domination or a large skirmish or two have been lost, or if you can't keep up with the enemy expansion.
And unfortunately, even in a balanced game, the marine exo is NOT a good counter to the onos right now. All you have to do as an onos is to wait until the exos leave an important tech point, or wait until they start converging somewhere, and go around them or hit the weak position with all or most you have. It will usually go down because the exos can't beacon. Even if exos are playing defensively, aliens can exploit the onos' vastly better mobility (especially with celery®) to take down most of what exos aren't defending.
Exos are too slow and jetpackers, while with the range nerf usually do better against oni, aren't really a counter either.
<!--quoteo(post=2035276:date=Nov 26 2012, 09:07 PM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Nov 26 2012, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I prefer Gorge over everything, but the game is just so boring for Gorges that the moment I hit 75 res (since I'm staying gorge the whole time), it's just hurting my team NOT to go onos...so why not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd love to see more Gorge love too. In the absence of BB they have a very, very dull midgame. I'm not arguing for Gorge Walls of Lame to come rolling back, I just think Gorges need to be more involved in non-base skirmishes. At the very least it would encourage newbie alien players to be something other than Skulks before they go Onos. Until the Khamm gets BB or Adren the Gorge can't really contribute much. Bigger clogs would encourage more offensive blocking without affecting offensive damage, and moves the Gorge closer to the conflict.
Exos are too slow and jetpackers, while with the range nerf usually do better against oni, aren't really a counter either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armory drops cripple Onos mobility for a very affordable tradeoff in cost.
If you're running a marine train you should expect either direct ambush or a diversionary assault, and you should have planned accordingly. If you choose to gamble, ie you hope your base can survive long enough for your train to destroy the hive, you cannot then complain when you lose that gamble.
To go back to the original point - if you are seeing Onos at (more or less) the point when people have enough pres then you've also had a significant amount of time and forewarning that it was going to happen. You're dealing with players who can't/won't Lerk or Fade, and once you kill them they're going to sit on their res until they can Onos again. In an equal skill game, if you can't control nodes you're going to lose. Period. If you outskill the other side you've a chance to win by tactics or strategy, but with equal skill it'll boil down to who is making the most res.
This does suggest a "timer" in the sense that a X amount of harvesters means Y "Time-to-Onos", but some forget that the marine player contributes to this "timer" by choosing to attack harvesters or not. Sit on your backside and you'll see Oni, but sit on your backside and you're going to lose anyway. The aliens are just ending it faster. Be aggressive as a Comm, set the pace.
Above all else, Comm's shouldn't punish themselves for their team's shortcomings. They shouldn't berate them for it either. They can't help the fact they can't hit skulks, and a Comm can't help the fact that pure turtling won't win.
Comments
Complicated fix:
Redesign the aliens. Do not allow aliens to evolve into higher lifeforms. Higher Lifeforms are given only by the khammander. So we need a new System for aliens to spend their Pres. One example could be: the commander upgrades still the hive into shade,shift,crag. When the shift-hive growth up and an upgradespur is build, the aliens choose and buy their upgrades themselves. The player could spend now 10 Pres for permanent celerity on skulks and another 10 Pres for permanent adrenalin on skulks . Hes now able to choose between celerity and adrenalin for skulks as long the spur is up (only one spur needed for both upgrades). If he want to use permanent celerity/adrenalin on fade/gorge/onos/lerk he needs to spend additional 10 Pres. Same way for permanent abilitys like leap for 15-20 Pres. Set the max. Pres to 30. If reached --> the now gained ressources goes to the khammander.
Complicated complicated fix:
Use previous solution + add some new crazy abilitys to the aliens that costs Pres one use.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really a fan of those fixes. Hard limits on lifeform counts seems like a cheap way to control the flow of games, and would limit the diversity in strategies. Your complicated fix drastically changes the game too much and tries to fix things that aren't broken. It also won't keep the khammander from saving up res to drop multiple onos eggs, unless you combine it with a hard limit, and that would make the complicated fix redundant anyway.
Just give players enough reasons to evolve into non-onos lifeforms and less people will save up for the onos. For instance, gorge and lerk are good value for money, fade less so.
Like Dawn of War 2? I like the Idea. Maybe we need to change the objectives.
Let both teams starts with 5000 points. There are 9 RTs on the field. If your team own 3 RTs and your enemy just 2, the enemy starts losing points. If u have 4 and your enemy just 2, your enemy is losing points faster. If both teams own the same numbers of Rts, the points are stucked. If on team reached 0 points, the game is over. <---- this wont fix the current issue but would improved the gameplay.
Instead of RTs to save those points, UWE should implement "victory-points" on special locations that need to take and hold. For exampel: Map Veil. One victory point at marine/alien base and the third point at nano-grid.( both Rts must be removed ) <--- could fix the current issue. The idea is to force both teams to spend there ressources to take and hold those points at all cost, because there could be not enough time to let save the whole team enough res to explode with 8 exos/onos.
U can still and simply destroy the enemy base. There are just 2 different ways to win now. That would also fix that goddamn boring endgame of turteling marines.
a.k.a don't reinvent the wheel? A horrible mentality which undermines innovation and efficiency. If people hadn't reinvented the wheel, we'd be in the stone age right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually have several patents so don't challenge my mentality.
<!--quoteo(post=2034955:date=Nov 26 2012, 10:18 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 26 2012, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It was broken, so they fixed it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The NS1 RFK system was not broken and didn't need changed. Only bad players whined about it. The only imbalance in NS1 was the varying balance according to player count which could have been fixed in other ways. I have not played enough of NS2 to be conclusive if the balance also changes with player count, especially with all the changes.
keep it up guys, it's most entertaining!
Solution give players ways to sink res other then saving for onos. (Gorge structures)
Also blink doesn't seem to get researched until I have 65-70 res.(this may be due to tres onos from previous builds)
This, right here. In nearly every game that I've been a marine comm, the game had been lost by complacent players who sit around 'defending' our two tech points and hoarding res for exos. I'll use Docking as an example, I had a team that actually knew what to do and how to be aggressive - we had teams of three or more at East Wing and Maintenance, with Locker Rooms as our second tech point and with three outside PGs set up (East Wing, Locker Rooms, Onos Bar). I put forward armories and obs at Maintenance and East Wing to help support those pushes. I also had a (self-appointed) ninja run through Courtyard and kill Stability repeatedly, occasionally sneaking into the hive and sniping an upgrade.
I went for a/w upgrades, JPs, GLs and we killed the Generator hive with an aggressive marine push along with ARC support. Those ARCs moved to North Point and encountered an Onos. I only had 2 JPs defending the ARCs, but I had 6 - 7 ARCs and the Onos couldn't kill them fast enough to prevent me from nuking the hive from orbit (I actually nano-shielded the ARC that he was attacking, and he didn't switch targets). All of this was only made possible by marines PUSHING East Wing (their main hive was Departures) and PUSHING ball court/maintenance in the early game, occasionally killing Stability Monitoring. The end result is that the aliens had a total of two or three res nodes the entire game. There wasn't a single exo in sight until the very last minute when the hive was being ARCed.
Let's keep it simple.
If you are seeing "early" Onos, consider that each Onos has saved every last drop of their res. You have been facing basic (or near basic) skulks for the duration of the game so far. Have you been pressuring their RTs? Have you been building RTs? Have you attacked their Hive? Have you seized a Hive location? Lots of "no"s mean Onos.
I absolutely agree that the Onos is the skill-friendly option for many players. It's big, has lots of health, automatically uses the right attack, and has a nice stomp down the line. If you're playing defensively then by the time you're dead you've probably enough res to Onos again.
Contrast with the Lerk, which requires map knowledge and flight skills, or the Fade, which is an expensive skulk if you can't SS/Blink. Lerks and Fades are vicious in the right hands, but in the hands of the newbie they end up as res sinks. Sped into a wall? Dead. Clipped on a railing? Dead. Didn't see the marine first? Dead.
You can see the attraction, right? "I spend 50 res and die while helping my team, now I'm a skulk" vs "I spend 75 res and won't die so long as I run away real good". I'm sure marine players prefer the newbie Fade to the newbie Onos, but the secret is this - they're the same player.
A newbie Onos is not half as dangerous as people think. The marines have had ample time to prepare, to counter. If all you've seen is skulks then you can pretty much be guaranteed the Onos is coming. Grab those shotties, push into the hive, and make scrambled eggs. Even bog-standard axe marines chopping at a hive will trigger enough warning messages to freak out an alien team. Don't like the aggressive route? Drop an armory or two. Personally I think you should be dropping them BEHIND an Onos when it's trying to pressure your base (nothing funnier than an Onos blindly trying to escape past an armory) but deterrent is just as good.
You cannot tell me that in an equal skill situation the Commander has not noticed that he's only facing Skulks. If a player has had the time to sit on his res until Onos then the Commander has had ample opportunity to head this strategy off.
As a closing point, I feel it is very poor sportsmanship to complain about an opponent using his skills to their fullest. I concede that a player who sits on his res can cripple aliens in the early to mid game, but that is a problem for his fellow alien players. A marine player cannot complain that an opponent, who knows he can't play as a Fade or Lerk, chooses to save for the only class he can play.
TL:DR All skill being equal, complacent players are always going to lose. Don't fault your opponent for doing you a favour and ending it quickly.
I think its more the fact that in comp play people understand the importance of killing res towers and most alien comms dont understand the importance of not lolspamming 1000 harvesters even if a marine is constantly walking around killing them over and over.
A harvester that does not earn back more than the 15 (10 for harvester and 5 for cysts to get to it) res investment to build it, is a waste of time and a pointless res investment. Even if it earns 16 res back, that still means you have wasted 2 mins and 21 seconds of game time to earn 1 res... and essentially locked your 15 res away in a pointless investment for 2 mins...
In NS2 against alien this means exploting the fact that they are skulks for a sizable portion of the game until they evolve. Without the 2-hive tres Onos drop, the pres Onos appears at roughly 9-10 minutes from my experience. If Marines weren't able to do any significant teching or economic damage to delay the Onos during this time then that's their problem.
It's even worse now thanks to the 3-hive tres Onos. If the Aliens can't secure a 3rd Hive and the initial pres Onos push is repulsed, then the Marines have to royally screw up for Aliens to have a shot at winning. You only really have yourself and your team to blame if Aliens can afford to Skulk for that long.
Though the issue is more that the Fade isn't really as useful as the Onos. Fade is a glass cannon and Onos is a tank. And for only 25 extra res, I'd rather save up for the Onos or get a Lerk if I feel like flying around. Plus why bother spending pres on Fade when your comm can just drop Fade eggs? Not like there's much else to do with tres until 3rd Hive anyway.
Please tell me that this is really true. I though the bone shield idea was discarded. If the Onos play style would turn out in a more supportive role you described that would be awesome. No silly roflsromping Oni anymore because flanking an Onos would be actually dangerous. When do UWE want to implement the 'new' Onos, when it's done? Or is there a half certain release date or time slot?
For example:
1 hive: 1 onos, 2 fades, 3 lerks
2 hives: 2 onos, 3 fades, 4 lerks
3 hives: 3 onos, 4 fades, 5 lerks
I don't care much about the actual numbers, but it would make everyone saving for onos less useful, while encouraging the use of lerk/fade. I could see it being a problem in very late game if a significant number of exos are on the field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoLz k
For Example For Marines
1 CC: 1 Exo, 2 JP, 3 GL/SG/FT (Any Combination but 3 max)
2 CC's: 2 Exos, 3 JP, 4 GL/SG/FG (Any Combination but 4 Max)
3 CC's: 3 Exos, 4 JP, 5 GL/SG/FG (Any Combination but 4 Max)
Gotta make things even right?
In other words, while the concept of this is sound by itself:
" Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. "
It doesn't work when you demand that a player dump a whopping 75 pres into simply being a support unit. Battlefield wouldn't work if you could only play a medic or engineer after you've taken half the team's tickets, you need all the classes available at once (except snipers, because ###### them).
When it comes to a shotgun, an LMG, or an Exosuit, they all do the same thing - shoot bullets. There's no 'role' that needs to be filled with a shotgun, it's just there to help you kill more. As such, when a marine loses his shotgun, it's not the end of the world, nor is their team tied to a ridiculous concept such as forcing a player into a role they don't want simply because their team will lose if they don't have it.
Boy wouldn't TF2 be more fun if you all started with Pyros and could only change classes once you earned enough cash from kills to do so? And when you die, you spawn as a Pyro again? No wait, that would totally ruin the game.
I like playing bitey bitey spikey spikey lerk, but I like playing spore and umbra support Lerk far more. I think it comes down to personal preference really. A version of the Onos that is more support than attack? Sounds like my ideal lifeform to be honest.
The other obvious fix would be making the fade useful ---> but then you just have fade explosions.
What about res for POINTS? Add assist points, balance the points given from destroying buildings. Yea this can "snowball" but that's how RTS games work; your small tactical victory adds to your win. I think this is a better way to stagger when life-forms show up without encouraging people to play selfishly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Makes sense - so good players get 3 minutes onos. While bad players are punished with skulk for eternity.
Of course one has to rethink the whole balancing when the role of a class is shifted so immensely.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->" Send your entire team Onos and you've got nobody to do the actual killing; just a bunch of slow walls that can be flanked or avoided, or so the role would dictate. "<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Send your entire team Exo and you've got nobody to do the actual building and repairing,...(yes except MACs, don't bother me with facts ;) , but you need a bunch of them to be effective)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't work when you demand that a player dump a whopping 75 pres into simply being a support unit. Battlefield wouldn't work if you could only play a medic or engineer after you've taken half the team's tickets, you need all the classes available at once (except snipers, because ###### them).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rethinking, re-balancing etc. see above. And you have free skulks at least and the whole idea has to be proven wrong first by trying it out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When it comes to a shotgun, an LMG, or an Exosuit, they all do the same thing - shoot bullets. There's no 'role' that needs to be filled with a shotgun, it's just there to help you kill more. As such, when a marine loses his shotgun, it's not the end of the world, nor is their team tied to a ridiculous concept such as forcing a player into a role they don't want simply because their team will lose if they don't have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehm...what?!? Of course does an exosuit, grenade launcher or flamethrower change your role! Exos can't build, GLers have to attack from behind marines lines because they can protect them selves, flamethrowers have an utilizing and supporting role. Loosing a class is harder than loosing a weapon, well let me here pull the asymmetry card. ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Boy wouldn't TF2 be more fun if you all started with Pyros and could only change classes once you earned enough cash from kills to do so? And when you die, you spawn as a Pyro again? No wait, that would totally ruin the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No idea whether good or bad, just played the tutorials of TF2 and thought meh.
Build 230 , Onos egg cost 155 tRes (includes second & third hive w/ 180s build time each) and approx. 390 seconds in build/evolve everything (w/o Gorge aid). We agree that this is correct amount of res and time, however, getting a third hive is considerably harder, especially maps with 4 tech points.
My solution is to make the Khammander ability to evolve eggs researchable first. With first hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop basic eggs (Gorge and Lerk) for 10 tRes with 60s research time. Once Khammander obtained second hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop advance eggs (Fade and Onos) for 30 tRes with 120s research time. These numbers can be tweaked further. I am just providing an example. Idea is to keep the new res and time of build 230 with the hive requirement from pre build 230.
keep it up guys, it's most entertaining!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Seriously, I've only been checking this thread to be amused.
Build 230 , Onos egg cost 155 tRes (includes second & third hive w/ 180s build time each) and approx. 390 seconds in build/evolve everything (w/o Gorge aid). We agree that this is correct amount of res and time, however, getting a third hive is considerably harder, especially maps with 4 tech points.
My solution is to make the Khammander ability to evolve eggs researchable first. With first hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop basic eggs (Gorge and Lerk) for 10 tRes with 60s research time. Once Khammander obtained second hive, Khammander can research the ability to drop advance eggs (Fade and Onos) for 30 tRes with 120s research time. These numbers can be tweaked further. I am just providing an example. Idea is to keep the new res and time of build 230 with the hive requirement from pre build 230.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The new 3-hive onos drops isn't balanced because of its increased (+40) res cost. It is more balanced than before because of the increased difficulty of taking and holding 3 hives. I don't think adding a 40 (or 30 in your case) res cost to onos drops fixes anything. It just delays the onos by a minute and 6-10m onos becomes 7-11m onos. Still not fun to play against and still a timer that marines have to beat.
The pres onos are still available at second hive. You just actually have to earn them in a reasonable timeframe and use other lifeforms to get there instead of relying on the onos drop crutch.
Typical alien gameplay for me:
1. Skulk and ninja RTs left and right and ambush marines who try to rebuild AFTER the RT is dropped and not finished rebuilding yet.
2. Once we have one upgrade, I go gorge for rest of game trying to keep marines from reaching our res towers
3. Oh, I have 100 res? Umm, okay. Guess I'll Onos because I'm HURTING my team by not going Onos if I can afford it.
4. Everyone Onos rushes marine start power node. GG
It's quite...boring. I want a reason to be a dedicated Gorge and a reason to utilize the res that I have. Res shouldn't be ONLY for upgrading to a "better" lifeform.
I LOLd. There's no problem to begin with, never mind this unnecessarily stupid "fix" lol.
The game is working as intended. If marines don't win against crappy skulks before a wave of 4+ oni appears, they deserve to lose, very badly.
NS2 is a game of quick skirmishes leading to a final victory, not a turtling game of exo and onos spam. I thought it's been 4 weeks since release already... or has it?
I don't upgrade them until weapons 1 is finished for that reason (you need to sink 6 pellets on non-cara skulks before, 5 after. And likewise for Cara 8 pellets vs 7 pellets)
Weapon 1 shotty marines just feel dangerous where W0 ones feel anemic because of that 1 less pellet that has to be hit.
[edit] there's several configurations of 5 pellets that work pretty well on the current shotgun at a reasonable range, where as the 6 pellet configurations have to be VERY perfectly hit on the skulk while he's quite close, they're pretty wide.
The game is working as intended. If marines don't win against crappy skulks before a wave of 4+ oni appears, they deserve to lose, very badly.
NS2 is a game of quick skirmishes leading to a final victory, not a turtling game of exo and onos spam. I thought it's been 4 weeks since release already... or has it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A) That means there's a set timer for Marines to beat else they lose, and this was never designed to be this way, or proposed as such in Charlie's high level design docs.
B) The game you are describing NS2 of being is a result of the symptom, and all that you know. So while i can't say how long you've actually been playing this game, most know that any game has the potential to last 60 seconds or an hour and thirty.. This description of "quick skirmish leading to a final victory" is not representative and if you feel that it is, this is once again only because this is what you know - the symptom of the issue has caused this.
edit: but for the record, i too found Mr Greedy's suggestion to be shortsighted, not scaling with playercounts + using an artificial cap in lieu of proper role implementation.
I find that individual players are far more able to measure their own worth than anyone else, so, unless they have yet to try or become familiar with the other lifeforms, it would seem that this trend would be indicative of a clear fact; that a later Onos is superior to an early lerk/fade.
Now, if we balance were to be roughly 50/50 in general ( for smaller/larger and pub/competetive games ), then we would need to justify these changes in another light. I believe that, in this case, most people would agree that it is fairly boring for strategy and gameplay as a whole for two classes of aliens to be overlooked so often.
I personally am a Lerk at heart, and I always go Lerk whenever I can. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to buff them, but I could see fades using a bit of love. I know Charlie would be against it, but I think adding metabolism back to the fade would be something to consider.
B) The game you are describing NS2 of being is a result of the symptom, and all that you know. So while i can't say how long you've actually been playing this game, most know that any game has the potential to last 60 seconds or an hour and thirty.. This description of "quick skirmish leading to a final victory" is not representative and if you feel that it is, this is once again only because this is what you know - the symptom of the issue has caused this.
edit: but for the record, i too found Mr Greedy's suggestion to be shortsighted, not scaling with playercounts + using an artificial cap in lieu of proper role implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what Charlie intended, but like any RTS game, you're on a timer when you start and things usually escalate very rapidly after some territorial domination or a large skirmish or two have been lost, or if you can't keep up with the enemy expansion.
And unfortunately, even in a balanced game, the marine exo is NOT a good counter to the onos right now. All you have to do as an onos is to wait until the exos leave an important tech point, or wait until they start converging somewhere, and go around them or hit the weak position with all or most you have. It will usually go down because the exos can't beacon. Even if exos are playing defensively, aliens can exploit the onos' vastly better mobility (especially with celery®) to take down most of what exos aren't defending.
Exos are too slow and jetpackers, while with the range nerf usually do better against oni, aren't really a counter either.
I'd love to see more Gorge love too. In the absence of BB they have a very, very dull midgame. I'm not arguing for Gorge Walls of Lame to come rolling back, I just think Gorges need to be more involved in non-base skirmishes. At the very least it would encourage newbie alien players to be something other than Skulks before they go Onos. Until the Khamm gets BB or Adren the Gorge can't really contribute much. Bigger clogs would encourage more offensive blocking without affecting offensive damage, and moves the Gorge closer to the conflict.
<!--quoteo(post=2035524:date=Nov 27 2012, 03:24 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 27 2012, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2035524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...onos' vastly better mobility...
Exos are too slow and jetpackers, while with the range nerf usually do better against oni, aren't really a counter either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armory drops cripple Onos mobility for a very affordable tradeoff in cost.
If you're running a marine train you should expect either direct ambush or a diversionary assault, and you should have planned accordingly. If you choose to gamble, ie you hope your base can survive long enough for your train to destroy the hive, you cannot then complain when you lose that gamble.
To go back to the original point - if you are seeing Onos at (more or less) the point when people have enough pres then you've also had a significant amount of time and forewarning that it was going to happen. You're dealing with players who can't/won't Lerk or Fade, and once you kill them they're going to sit on their res until they can Onos again. In an equal skill game, if you can't control nodes you're going to lose. Period. If you outskill the other side you've a chance to win by tactics or strategy, but with equal skill it'll boil down to who is making the most res.
This does suggest a "timer" in the sense that a X amount of harvesters means Y "Time-to-Onos", but some forget that the marine player contributes to this "timer" by choosing to attack harvesters or not. Sit on your backside and you'll see Oni, but sit on your backside and you're going to lose anyway. The aliens are just ending it faster. Be aggressive as a Comm, set the pace.
Above all else, Comm's shouldn't punish themselves for their team's shortcomings. They shouldn't berate them for it either. They can't help the fact they can't hit skulks, and a Comm can't help the fact that pure turtling won't win.