Onos Avalanche Effect
Imbalanxd
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The new 6 minute Onos replacement</div>I don't know if anybody else has noticed it in the games they play, but nearly all the games I have played in the past few days have been centred around the Onos Avalanche. I guess that its an improvement over the 6 minute Onos, but its still just as monotonous. I'm sure you have all experienced it. The game starts out ok, with light marines and skulks facing off. Then maybe it heats up a little with shotguns or weapon upgrades, maybe carapace or celerity. Then marines really kick their upgrades up a notch, while the aliens start getting second hive abilities and their second upgrades.
And then, inevitably, after at least 40% of the alien team had spent resources on absolutely nothing else (either through no need for higher life forms, or just disdain for the only two real options), 2 or 3 or sometimes even 4 Onos appear, all at once. Shortly after the marines lose, unless they had level 3 exos up by that point.
Is anyone else noticing this strong trend in nearly all games? Its getting quite boring to be honest.
And then, inevitably, after at least 40% of the alien team had spent resources on absolutely nothing else (either through no need for higher life forms, or just disdain for the only two real options), 2 or 3 or sometimes even 4 Onos appear, all at once. Shortly after the marines lose, unless they had level 3 exos up by that point.
Is anyone else noticing this strong trend in nearly all games? Its getting quite boring to be honest.
Comments
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->User was warned for this post, please don't single post images, this is the General Discussion forum, not the Artwork forum, thanks. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This is the most accurate answer.
Its not the onoses who to the damage. its the gorge bilebombing behind the onos.
The other obvious fix would be making the fade useful ---> but then you just have fade explosions.
What about res for POINTS? Add assist points, balance the points given from destroying buildings. Yea this can "snowball" but that's how RTS games work; your small tactical victory adds to your win. I think this is a better way to stagger when life-forms show up without encouraging people to play selfishly.
I also still see a lot of people foolishly going Lerk or Fade before Spores and Blink, then getting their faces blown off.
Ultimately it depends if your Skulks are capable of keeping the Marines on the ropes without mid-game units.
If you make the fade viable, less people will save for onos.
The only problem you have uncovered here is aliens inability to actually make serious offensives before. onos due to the fades lack of ability to tank any damage whatsoever.
The game may turn in the aliens favor once the onos pop out, but once you take one down here, one down there, you will notice nothing pops up to replace those onos unless you allow the aliens 3 tech points at which point you probably should be in trouble.
it just changed from dropping onos to dropping lerks/fades and letting players save for onos
a decent marine team will destroy you unless you crank out the lerks/fades.
Its not the onoses who to the damage. its the gorge bilebombing behind the onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This helps a lot, as a gorge I actually like if the onos doesn't just get on the power node, if they are running around and attacking marines then I usually have the cover to bile. When onos have their faces in buildings, the marines get to run wild while the onas have no idea whats going on. I know as marine I gleefully chase the squealing gorges down.
Although one onas going around killing (covering) while the other onos gets on the power node also seems to work well.
----Edit----
Realized I didn't add much to the thread so I'll just reiterate the amount of res a fade costs... 50 res is a ton, and as a fade you can get caught randomly in a bad spot or near a surprise shotgun and 50 res is gone. Even if you don't lose it fast and are doing a decent job it's hard to push for a win with fades, lerks and skulks. You could use the gorge bile bomb but a gorge can get killed with an LMG and I've found trying to work with a fade as a gorge can be a bit silly. They are suppose to dive in and dive out... think that works well with a fatty gorge? or a flying lerk?
At this point in NS2 i'd say you probably could push for the win without an onos... but it would take awhile and would feel like throwing yourself into a shredder over and over.
An entire team of exos is counterable.
An entire team of oni is not.
(in general, on pub servers with decent levels of communication. YMMV, all rights reserved and any opinions are purely my own and do not feature in-game footage)
I for one have no problem with teams doing 'all one class' - but I agree it's boring now that aliens go onos all the time. I do it too. The trouble is it's just so much better than all the other options, especially once marines have w2/3, which is mid-game most of the time now.
Fair enough, actually. In the hands of good players Lerks are still useful before Spores. Not so sure about Fades without Blink, but good players will be good.
Blinkless Fades seem to get murdered a lot though. Even if a few people can make it useful, most won't.
I'm worried if they slow it down much more that too much weight will be put on the comm
Right now alien commander might sit around for a good 10 minutes waiting for enough onos to hit the field so they can take that 3rd hive
It's pretty much just a game of stalling until that happens with all the res going to more crags / shades / whips / sometimes eggs
A) It's easy to play, rack up the kills, and finish off marine bases
B) Fade deals less damage, has less survivability, is harder to play and ultimately not nearly as useful as an onos late game
It's kind of like people would rather save up for a duel exo than get the single one, because there's very little reason not to.
So, imo, the fade is the problem. It's a thin line though, make the fade too powerful, and people won't save up for onos at all. But as it is, fade needs to be more viable late game. Every non-skulk lifeform has sufficient tools for the late game. Onos is the meatshield and can knock down groups of marines, lerks provide the aerial support by spamming spores or umbra, and gorges have excellent base destruction/heal capabilities. The fade however, has vortex, which leaves much to be desired.
An entire team of Oni is not<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YES!
Someone gets it! :)
Proper soft Rock, Paper, Scissors design for all abilities and classes will allow all in strategies (which can happen regardless of tech explosions with a coordinated team) that contain a counter/risk.
Else it just becomes the obvious choice/path every single time.
solving tech explosions won't solve coordinated "all life form" strategies..
(which is the sole issue with tech explosions)
Edit: obviously this situation currently demonstrates fade viability too...
The other obvious fix would be making the fade useful ---> but then you just have fade explosions.
What about res for POINTS? Add assist points, balance the points given from destroying buildings. Yea this can "snowball" but that's how RTS games work; your small tactical victory adds to your win. I think this is a better way to stagger when life-forms show up without encouraging people to play selfishly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this happened, I think you would just be seeing more Onos. Onos is much easier to play than the lerk or fade. If players are racking up points I would bet they would save and go straight for the Onos.
Sounds like you deserved to lose if you let them do that.
Sounds like you deserved to lose if you let them do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, how I wish more people would realize the truth of these types of statements rather then searching for reasons why something is broken.......
Were the game designed around all lifeforms - and some new ones - being viable all the time, except forcing the players to constantly upgrade investments, you'd have a much less jarring progression through tech.
For me they just feel too much in terms of their size and use.
Were the game designed around all lifeforms -<b> and some new ones</b> - being viable all the time, except forcing the players to constantly upgrade investments, you'd have a much less jarring progression through tech.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please stop pushing your bad ideas in other peoples illegitimate threads.
If we had hypermutation (the ability to upgrade with no res lost) back the explosion would be even worse...
We would see the entire team go gorge and build the hive instantly, then all go lerk, then all go fade, then all go onos.
Your argument is invalid.
So by the time Onos boom occurs, you might get some tech up to counter it but nobody has the money to invest into it.
The shotgun is better then the LMG, it is just slightly harder to use.
For the average pub marine, I just don't see any return on investment (early game) unless you are flooded in resources. Unfortunately most people overrate their ability and will purchase one as soon as they are available.
And then, inevitably, after at least 40% of the alien team had spent resources on absolutely nothing else (either through no need for higher life forms, or just disdain for the only two real options), 2 or 3 or sometimes even 4 Onos appear, all at once. Shortly after the marines lose, unless they had level 3 exos up by that point.
Is anyone else noticing this strong trend in nearly all games? Its getting quite boring to be honest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We need to break the problem down in terms of strategy. If you are experiencing these Onos Avalanches, what's the first sign? I think the first sign would be that you're fighting against skulks for a majority of the early into the mid-game.
So let's think of a good response: What are Onos most weak against? Jetpacks. Not hard at all to get JP/SG w2/a2 by the time you see the Alien Team hit that Onos timing.
What are other ways you can counter the Onos timing? Force the Aliens to spend their res on lifeforms.
How do we do that? Well, shotguns are pretty damn good against Skulks. And so are mines. 2 extremely easy upgrades to get. We can also deny them RT's -> reducing the amount of pres they get over time.
Communication is absolutely key to Marines. Relay your findings to your commander. Constantly deny RT's. Rambo dives into main hives to take out upgrades severely pushes back the Aliens ability to continuously expand. It's not always about how you win the fight, but how you prevent the fight from ever occurring.
That's what I love about NS2.