I think this is a good example of how frustrating all the particle effects can be. It's so bad even without the other 70% - Infestation spikes, Cyst bursts, Drifter enzyme spam, Scan circles, jp smoke, whip bombard, gorge spit. Hopefully UWE has a look at the purpose of each visually obstructing mechanic and has a think about whether it fits their purpose, because quite honestly it's over the top. Still can't believe the burning away spore/umbra effect is just as bad as what it was trying to eliminate.
If you have a problem with the ammount of vision obstruction in Natural immersion 2, please add your footage here and hopefully we can start something.
*yea i know the audio bitrate sucks. sorry
Nice video. I like it. The marines still got Cafe., even with the power out.
EDIT: Necro'd a dead topic. Didn't realize it after clicking a link in another post. My fault. Can a mod re-bury this topic?
I think this is a good example of how frustrating all the particle effects can be. It's so bad even without the other 70% - Infestation spikes, Cyst bursts, Drifter enzyme spam, Scan circles, jp smoke, whip bombard, gorge spit. Hopefully UWE has a look at the purpose of each visually obstructing mechanic and has a think about whether it fits their purpose, because quite honestly it's over the top. Still can't believe the burning away spore/umbra effect is just as bad as what it was trying to eliminate.
If you have a problem with the ammount of vision obstruction in Natural immersion 2, please add your footage here and hopefully we can start something.
*yea i know the audio bitrate sucks. sorry
I've never seen any of the effects in my game. I run everything low except for models an AF/AA.
The particles don't generally bother me, I mean, lerks are supposed to spray an obscuring fog, that's part of their power, and I've no issue with that because it makes sense. It puts a physical obstacle in the world to stop me seeing past it. I don't generally find the other effects too obscuring.
But the HUD elements can be very annoying, motion tracking circles are more of a hindrance than a help, and I don't need to see floating icons over everything as a marine.
The game does suffer from important things not standing out very well. I have a hard time seeing aliens at long range as a marine, and the difference between using alien vision and not is... well there's not much reason to turn it off since they added the filter which shows bright lights with it on.
The game kinda feels like a 70's movie. Where the film stock gives everything that slightly washed out and soft focus look to it, and you can't quite tell what anything is, but it looks cool anyway.
Unfortunately it does cause a few issues with the gameplay. I'd like to be able to see better.
It pissed me off because I couldn't see the spores and thus couldn't find a spore free location fast enough. Guess I need to put it back in high until fixed.
Pretty sure its related to particle quality and not an intended design decision.
Of all the visually obstructing mechanics, UWE suddenly nerfs the one that had the highest reasonable case for its existence? Unlikely this was intended imo. On the same note, this is kinda what happens when changelogs don't have a reputation of being reliably complete - never know if something was intended or not.
I just said this in a different thread, but I'd like to say it here as well.
To anyone arguing that spores are useless or that spores should be turned into a ranged attack / something like umbra:
I've managed to kill off and/or harass large groups of marines using spores simply by flying quickly in confusing yet effective patterns. If you understand the map, you can easily fly over (and away from) marines, dropping and lifting in rapid succession when necessary, sporing them straight to hell, before looping back around and doing the same right over their heads. It's very possible to force marines to have to run through long trails of spores whether a squad is advancing or retreating, and this allows you to manipulate their movements (by channeling them into unspored areas). You already have an effective ranged attack in spikes (which, while not doing boatloads of damage, is great at ignoring armor and pissing off individual marines from positions of relative impunity), so I don't think the lerk needs additional reasons to stay out of combat. The trick, then, has to be how to survive gassing-runs.
As a ranged option, umbra allows me to support fellow aliens from afar by shielding doorways or guarding them as they take down structures without requiring me to awkwardly flap around in the marine base. This is far more sensible than requiring me to trail my compatriots into the thick of battle just so that I can defend them.
Now this isn't an argument in favor of eliminating the reduced visibility effect, and it may even be the case that lerks need a bit of an upgrade. I'd just really hate to see a return to the NS1 mechanic.
The idea was that spores originally were never designed as a 'visual obstruction'. Even when spores were delivered at range you could see through them. I think the change is to reflect that the fact that it is so deadly to such a large group of marines. The developers have always said they wanted to be very careful with 'AOE' abilities since they often cause balance to go out the window. This might be part of the reason behind the change.
Why is this even being discussed? Spores are supposed to block your view, so skulks and other lifeforms have it easier in the lategame to kill marines that are split up from the rest. Why does anybody want this game to be in easymode?
Why is this even being discussed? Spores are supposed to block your view, so skulks and other lifeforms have it easier in the lategame to kill marines that are split up from the rest. Why does anybody want this game to be in easymode?
I'll take that and throw it back at you.
Why the fuck should aliens get easy mode and not have to use skilled based movement to get into combat and kill the marines? Why should they get a practically free pass into melee range because of certain blinding effects?
Play NS1. Learn why it wasn't easy mode without blinding effects and why they are not a necessary part of the game.
"Play NS1. Learn why it wasn't easy mode without blinding effects and why they are not a necessary part of the game."
^^^ Slippery slopw dude, this isn't NS1 and okay, lets remove blind effects, lmgs, go back to playing chess.
NS2 wishes it could be chess. 50/50 balance. Always an ability for comebacks. Victory completely based upon skill. Personally, the sheer amount of LOS blockers/obscurers is annoying. Then again, one of the mods did say Flayra wanted sight obscuring effects in this game.
NS2 wishes it could be chess. 50/50 balance. Always an ability for comebacks. Victory completely based upon skill. Personally, the sheer amount of LOS blockers/obscurers is annoying. Then again, one of the mods did say Flayra wanted sight obscuring effects in this game.
I've won several games of chess by moving pieces without really thinking about it. It seems to confuse people when they assume you have a plan.
Certainly it helps to play intelligently, but you can certainly win at chess by dumb luck.
Also most of the skill in chess is blocking the enemy LOS. Specifically it's blocking the enemy LOS into your brain so they can't predict your intent and you can catch them off guard. You can see the board yes, but you can't see what people are going to do. As chess is a strategy game, intent is the meaningful part of the game. if you can't see what someone is going to do, you can't defend against it.
In an FPS game like the shooting segments of NS2, the board itself is the meaningful bit. You see enemy, you shoot enemy. Not see enemy means no shoot enemy so much.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
ooooh.. a necro I can post my opinion in, for whom none cares.
One of my first most memorable NS2 experiences WAS in the sea which is umbra/gas.
Marines were losing bad & I was marine.
I saw this huge moving umbra cloud (which I recognised from NS1) in which a lerk was visible for around 50%, a onos for around 40%, and some filler skulk.
It looked like a oncoming storm. It really gave me a 'ow shiiii' feeling.
I saw similar runs with more onos, more fade and no umbra and I never felt the same way.
But every time umbra pops up I am having this half tension half expecting something big to pop out and it is awsome.
I've won several games of chess by moving pieces without really thinking about it. It seems to confuse people when they assume you have a plan.
Certainly it helps to play intelligently, but you can certainly win at chess by dumb luck.
Also most of the skill in chess is blocking the enemy LOS. Specifically it's blocking the enemy LOS into your brain so they can't predict your intent and you can catch them off guard. You can see the board yes, but you can't see what people are going to do. As chess is a strategy game, intent is the meaningful part of the game. if you can't see what someone is going to do, you can't defend against it.
In an FPS game like the shooting segments of NS2, the board itself is the meaningful bit. You see enemy, you shoot enemy. Not see enemy means no shoot enemy so much.
As for spores/umbra: You already got your wish a few builds ago, it's been discussed. But people complained and changed spores back.
Full topic Here
Check dates before quoting, and you would see most were posted before the "change". Thought it was quite obvious it was a bug since it was still thick smoke on high particle setting if I remember correctly, anyway irrelevant now as it is as it is. I'd rather have proper look of spores that were less thick but not near invisible. The amount of clutter in this game is way too high as I think you implied with your dated post, which I agree.
pro top 1: get a shottie and 1 shot the lerk dropping gas on your face. proceed to the right by 2 steps to dodge spores.
It takes 10 bullets to kill 1 skulk. Therefore, you should be able to kill 5 skulks per 1 death. Anyone failing to do so should therefore uninstall their game for being such a miserable failure. It also takes 2 shotgun blasts to kill a fade at close range. If you are unable to kill a fade with a shotgun, you too should delete your game. Such incompetence cannot be tolerated by the NS community.
Or maybe not everyone is as good an aimer as you nezz. I, for one, cannot kill Lerks in 1 shot everytime I see one.
NS2 wishes it could be chess. 50/50 balance. Always an ability for comebacks. Victory completely based upon skill. Personally, the sheer amount of LOS blockers/obscurers is annoying. Then again, one of the mods did say Flayra wanted sight obscuring effects in this game.
I've won several games of chess by moving pieces without really thinking about it. It seems to confuse people when they assume you have a plan.
Certainly it helps to play intelligently, but you can certainly win at chess by dumb luck.
Also most of the skill in chess is blocking the enemy LOS. Specifically it's blocking the enemy LOS into your brain so they can't predict your intent and you can catch them off guard. You can see the board yes, but you can't see what people are going to do. As chess is a strategy game, intent is the meaningful part of the game. if you can't see what someone is going to do, you can't defend against it.
In an FPS game like the shooting segments of NS2, the board itself is the meaningful bit. You see enemy, you shoot enemy. Not see enemy means no shoot enemy so much.
Basically chess is not an FPS.
But you can. You can see everything your opponent is doing in chess and see all potential moves (or if you're a master, several moves ahead in the future). However, when I was talking about chess I was refering to the fact Chess is better balanced and allows for comebacks and when you're beaten it's because of the enemies' skill and it feels like a good game. Right now NS2 doesn't seem like that but it should aspire to be like it. Your "dumb luck" comment I find is debatable but is not really pertinent to the discussion (possibly leading us into a discussion deeper into chess instead of NS2)
I demand that we talk about chess now, and how hilariously wrong Chris0132 is. Can't blame him, though, chess on a lower level does look a lot like luck and deception. (When it really isn't, it's map and tempo control).
As for spores/umbra: You already got your wish a few builds ago, it's been discussed. But people complained and changed spores back.
Full topic Here
Check dates before quoting, and you would see most were posted before the "change". Thought it was quite obvious it was a bug since it was still thick smoke on high particle setting if I remember correctly, anyway irrelevant now as it is as it is. I'd rather have proper look of spores that were less thick but not near invisible. The amount of clutter in this game is way too high as I think you implied with your dated post, which I agree.
I'm just saying don't mess with spores too much because it has the most justifiable cause of sight obstruction. Everything else I don't mind.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
i personally see that vision obstruction is part of the alien tactic - at least at the moment, there isn't much aliens can do to not get hit - and once marines have level 3 weapons every shot hurts a lot.
considering that the marine weapons have no recoil / variable cone of fire for every weapon, and most people's mouse skills are good enough to track all but the best skulks, so something needs to break the marine's line of sight or fire etc.
not being seen and easily tracked = not being hit as often. whether that makes for a fun game or not that is another story, and well i guess that's what we are discussing.
So can we think of a better way to stop aliens from taking so much damage? Something that requires skill?
The hud clutter is what grinds my gears. Should be a minimal hud, big-time. All that shit on the screen all the time is distracting. I don't mind gameplay elements that use the impairment of vision but blue circles and arrows is too much. At least an option would be great, like the old rGuizero. That was gold.
Comments
Nice video. I like it. The marines still got Cafe., even with the power out.
EDIT: Necro'd a dead topic. Didn't realize it after clicking a link in another post. My fault. Can a mod re-bury this topic?
I've never seen any of the effects in my game. I run everything low except for models an AF/AA.
But the HUD elements can be very annoying, motion tracking circles are more of a hindrance than a help, and I don't need to see floating icons over everything as a marine.
The game does suffer from important things not standing out very well. I have a hard time seeing aliens at long range as a marine, and the difference between using alien vision and not is... well there's not much reason to turn it off since they added the filter which shows bright lights with it on.
The game kinda feels like a 70's movie. Where the film stock gives everything that slightly washed out and soft focus look to it, and you can't quite tell what anything is, but it looks cool anyway.
Unfortunately it does cause a few issues with the gameplay. I'd like to be able to see better.
Full topic Here
I'll take that and throw it back at you.
Why the fuck should aliens get easy mode and not have to use skilled based movement to get into combat and kill the marines? Why should they get a practically free pass into melee range because of certain blinding effects?
Play NS1. Learn why it wasn't easy mode without blinding effects and why they are not a necessary part of the game.
^^^ Slippery slopw dude, this isn't NS1 and okay, lets remove blind effects, lmgs, go back to playing chess.
NS2 wishes it could be chess. 50/50 balance. Always an ability for comebacks. Victory completely based upon skill. Personally, the sheer amount of LOS blockers/obscurers is annoying. Then again, one of the mods did say Flayra wanted sight obscuring effects in this game.
I love chess as much as the next guy, but don't forget the First Move Advantage, which can even get up to 56% wins for white.
Oh... you ment... never mind.
On another topic regarding Lerk Spores: Will the bug be fixed, that I can't use spores, when I am already lerk as spores get researched?
I've won several games of chess by moving pieces without really thinking about it. It seems to confuse people when they assume you have a plan.
Certainly it helps to play intelligently, but you can certainly win at chess by dumb luck.
Also most of the skill in chess is blocking the enemy LOS. Specifically it's blocking the enemy LOS into your brain so they can't predict your intent and you can catch them off guard. You can see the board yes, but you can't see what people are going to do. As chess is a strategy game, intent is the meaningful part of the game. if you can't see what someone is going to do, you can't defend against it.
In an FPS game like the shooting segments of NS2, the board itself is the meaningful bit. You see enemy, you shoot enemy. Not see enemy means no shoot enemy so much.
Basically chess is not an FPS.
One of my first most memorable NS2 experiences WAS in the sea which is umbra/gas.
Marines were losing bad & I was marine.
I saw this huge moving umbra cloud (which I recognised from NS1) in which a lerk was visible for around 50%, a onos for around 40%, and some filler skulk.
It looked like a oncoming storm. It really gave me a 'ow shiiii' feeling.
I saw similar runs with more onos, more fade and no umbra and I never felt the same way.
But every time umbra pops up I am having this half tension half expecting something big to pop out and it is awsome.
Check dates before quoting, and you would see most were posted before the "change". Thought it was quite obvious it was a bug since it was still thick smoke on high particle setting if I remember correctly, anyway irrelevant now as it is as it is. I'd rather have proper look of spores that were less thick but not near invisible. The amount of clutter in this game is way too high as I think you implied with your dated post, which I agree.
pro top 1: get a shottie and 1 shot the lerk dropping gas on your face. proceed to the right by 2 steps to dodge spores.
It takes 10 bullets to kill 1 skulk. Therefore, you should be able to kill 5 skulks per 1 death. Anyone failing to do so should therefore uninstall their game for being such a miserable failure. It also takes 2 shotgun blasts to kill a fade at close range. If you are unable to kill a fade with a shotgun, you too should delete your game. Such incompetence cannot be tolerated by the NS community.
Or maybe not everyone is as good an aimer as you nezz. I, for one, cannot kill Lerks in 1 shot everytime I see one.
But you can. You can see everything your opponent is doing in chess and see all potential moves (or if you're a master, several moves ahead in the future). However, when I was talking about chess I was refering to the fact Chess is better balanced and allows for comebacks and when you're beaten it's because of the enemies' skill and it feels like a good game. Right now NS2 doesn't seem like that but it should aspire to be like it. Your "dumb luck" comment I find is debatable but is not really pertinent to the discussion (possibly leading us into a discussion deeper into chess instead of NS2)
If the same Nezz I'm thinking it is. You could just script your way to victory or use pink skulks but we know that doesn't help you
I'm just saying don't mess with spores too much because it has the most justifiable cause of sight obstruction. Everything else I don't mind.
considering that the marine weapons have no recoil / variable cone of fire for every weapon, and most people's mouse skills are good enough to track all but the best skulks, so something needs to break the marine's line of sight or fire etc.
not being seen and easily tracked = not being hit as often. whether that makes for a fun game or not that is another story, and well i guess that's what we are discussing.
So can we think of a better way to stop aliens from taking so much damage? Something that requires skill?
i quite like the vision obscuring on gorge spit
one day people will get over the fact that they die to a pistol.
Not so much the dying it's the part where you have to script in order to get your frags and the use of pink skulks
but why not, since the same issue was restarted from the other post about gorge spit