<!--quoteo(post=2033896:date=Nov 25 2012, 12:26 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Nov 25 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033896"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why post a video showing particle effects, yet showing how you still manage to kill stuff amongst all the mess :p<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually i missed alot of shots, alot of potential shots, and alot of aliens which i never even saw. Any kills were more luck than anything, which is another point i have against vision obstruction. I could have waited for an even more extreme example and purposely not shot anything, but part of me actually wanted to have an honest dicussion still :p.
--------------- Before the number of ignorant and assumptive posts get out of hand (i really don't know why some people defend visual obstruction so vehemently to the point of stupidity), let me try and chew the OP into small enough bites for some of you. You're doing real harm to the longevity of NS2 if you think the level of potential vision obstruction is currently fine. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hopefully UWE has a look at the purpose of each visually obstructing mechanic and has a think about whether it fits their purpose, because quite honestly it's over the top.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> To prevent TL;DR i'm going to just go through a few very quickly <b>Spore</b> Designed to vision block. Is it too much for the damage dealt, is the damage too much for the ammount of vision block, or is the balance here fine? <b>Umbra</b> Designed to block bullets, not emulate the sun. <b>Flamethrower effect</b> Designed to burn away visually obstructing effects. Ends up causing more vision obstruction. <b>Jetpack smoke</b> Designed to make jetpacking look natural. Only affects marine vision and ends up being nearly as obscuring as spore but shorter duration. <b>Nutrient Mist</b> Designed to speed up maturation. Most useful utility ends up being vision block of ground moving objects. Effect is stackable for crazy long lasting vision block. <b>Drifter enzyme</b> Designed to speed up attacks. Effect also ends up obscuring vision and is stackable. <b>Whip bombard</b> Designed to strip armour and kill structures. Ends up causing seizure effects. <b>Scan circles</b> Designed to provide an advantage to marines by making it easier to track and shoot aliens. Ends up causing so much vision obscuration it ends up being a <b>disadvantage</b>.
I'm not trying to get all the effects removed. I'm not trying to get a whitewalled game with green skulk models and miserable players who play for competition (what?). All i'm asking for is a little design clarity and focus instead of "this looks kool, lets do it". Where fit, effects should really be toned down and have possible counters (such as turning away from a flashbang) - there is obviously room for it. In all other cases, the visually immersive component should not materially impede the gameplay component. UWE has already done this somewhat with infestation (simple/complex option) where the complex version will have visually obscuring 'bubbles' that skulks can hide in.
While the video example i provided was mainly umbra, spore, flamethrower effects, and nutrient mist, the focus was this is how it looks like even <b>without the alien khammander using the other half of mechanics that are also visually obstructing</b>. I also didn't have atmospherics, bloom, fog, or complex infestation turned on so it would have looked much worse. Was hoping someone had footage of the full course menu so to speak.
* <!--quoteo(post=2033927:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:12 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 25 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And all I see here is a marine team, already lost the game, losing its last position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> P.S. We didn't lose the game thanks to virginsuits.
<!--quoteo(post=2033986:date=Nov 24 2012, 09:21 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 24 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not trying to get a whitewalled game with green skulk models and miserable players who play for competition (what?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experience, that's exactly what you're trying to do. That's what NS1 was as well, from what I've seen, with all the settings turned low and gamma on high.
You already play on low, when you probably have a more than capable vid card to turn at least half the settings up.
But anyway, back on topic.
Every "severely vision obscuring" ability has a counter that shuts the ability down before it can even be done - a counter like turning away from the flashbang.
A lerk has to get close enough to be 1- or at least 2-shot to spore. A good marine team will shut the lerk down before it can even come close enough. You have to have infestation to mist or cyst explode. You have to let a gorge's crappy slow-moving projectile hit you to cause a splat which disappears in 2 seconds anyway. Umbra is 3 hives, costs ridiculous amounts of t.res and time to research (with the added hive build time it's easily at least 10 minutes before it's researched), and I personally can see just fine through it.
I'm not even counting things like jetpack smoke in with the others. They've never bothered me at all. The only "effect" which I dislike on the marine team is the flashlight fog, which I still think should be turned down in opacity or removed.
<!--quoteo(post=2034009:date=Nov 25 2012, 03:51 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 25 2012, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my experience, that's exactly what you're trying to do. That's what NS1 was as well, from what I've seen, with all the settings turned low and gamma on high.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What was that thing someone had in their sig? "Just because you see me say something does not automatically mean i think the sun is full of hotdogs".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You already play on low, when you probably have a more than capable vid card to turn at least half the settings up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you know what vid card i have? Are you stalking me? Is this a passive aggressive threat?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every "severely vision obscuring" ability has a counter that shuts the ability down before it can even be done - a counter like turning away from the flashbang.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fantasy world and bad logic. Turning away from a flashbang does not stop it from going off.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lerk has to get close enough to be 1- or at least 2-shot to spore. A good marine team will shut the lerk down before it can even come close enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why spores are unviable in comp, but totally troll in pub.
<!--quoteo(post=2034016:date=Nov 24 2012, 10:02 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 24 2012, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fantasy world and bad logic. Turning away from a flashbang does not stop it from going off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a fantasy world, and my logic is solid. When you say something like this, you should probably follow-up with where the logic is "bad." I shouldn't even have to say this, but I guess ironically enough you don't seem to understand how constructing a counter-argument works.
Turning away is the counter to a flashbang. Shutting a lerk down with a shotgun before he can start sporing is the counter to spores. Shooting infestation from far away, or preventing it from entering your area is the counter to cyst eruption and misting (even though I wouldn't count mist as vision-obscuring at all. it is as harmless as jetpack smoke to me). Should I break it down into a more simple elements for you to understand the metaphor?
The construction of your OP shows nothing more than... the game itself... but it is designed, from the title to the last word, in a way which assumes that the majority of people share your feelings and you'd like to start some kind of "revolution" where the masses rise up and transform this unfair game into what the "people" want, based on pure feelings that "oh my gosh, the vision obscuring effects are oh-so-terrible." As much as you'd like to believe that's the case, I just don't think that it is. They're pretty well-designed, as they are, and they have their time and place.
I just hope the Charlie doesn't have the same emotional knee-jerk reaction to these troll threads as he did to the ridiculously stupid videos of the "three shift rushes" into the marine starting position last week. Because the shift changes did hurt enjoyable gameplay, for me at least.
<!--quoteo(post=2034024:date=Nov 25 2012, 04:18 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 25 2012, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not a fantasy world, and my logic is solid. When you say something like this, you should probably follow-up with where the logic is "bad." I shouldn't even have to say this, but I guess ironically enough you don't seem to understand how constructing a counter-argument works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-me+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (me)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Turning away from a flashbang does not stop it from going off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Turning away is the counter to a flashbang. Shutting a lerk down with a shotgun before he can start sporing is the counter to spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a difference between winning being the counter to losing (something that counters something else before it happens), and turning away from a flashbang (something that counters something after the fact in prescience).
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shooting infestation from far away, or preventing it from entering your area is the counter to cyst eruption and misting (even though I wouldn't count mist as vision-obscuring at all. it is as harmless as jetpack smoke to me). Should I break it down into a more simple elements for you to understand the metaphor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasting all that ammo into cysts when aliens are now trying to kill you doesn't sound like a good idea anymore does it.
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The construction of your OP shows nothing more than... the game itself... but it is designed, from the title to the last word, in a way which assumes that the majority of people share your feelings and you'd like to start some kind of "revolution" where the masses rise up and transform this unfair game into what the "people" want, based on pure feelings that "oh my gosh, the vision obscuring effects are oh-so-terrible." As much as you'd like to believe that's the case, I just don't think that it is. They're pretty well-designed, as they are, and they have their time and place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-me+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (me)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have a problem with the ammount of vision obstruction in Natural immersion 2, please add your footage here and hopefully we can start something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Revolution? lol. It was a critique of vision obstruction currently in NS2. Critique comes before the constructive discussion and as Charlie has indicated, he requires trends (usually in the form of lots of videos) for him to be able to see a problem. Also note i said <b>If</b>. I indicated no majority.
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just hope the Charlie doesn't have the same emotional knee-jerk reaction to these troll threads as he did to the ridiculously stupid videos of the "three shift rushes" into the marine starting position last week. Because the shift changes did hurt enjoyable gameplay, for me at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find it ironic that threads addressing troll mechanics are labelled troll. If you ever find yourself playing against me as alien kham, i think you'll end up changing servers.
<!--quoteo(post=2034028:date=Nov 24 2012, 10:27 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 24 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find it ironic that threads addressing troll mechanics are labelled troll. If you ever find yourself playing against me as alien kham, i think you'll end up changing servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually play marines almost exclusively lately, because marine wins are hard and few on pubs these days. It's good practice for when marine teams start to suck less in the future.
And actually, I don't think that anyone comming on alien side really would annoy me, because the commander really can't do much in battle. I've played against good coms, and sure, they can spam infestation somewhere, faster than a single marine can kill it, do things like bone walls, ink, cyst eruption, drifter rushes, etc., but these things are so costly that you can usually only do them when the alien team has already won. Except cyst eruption, but I don't consider that useful enough for its cost as it is. Also, if the alien com is spending resources or efforts on me as an individual marine or on an individual marine position, I always don't mind it because it's always a trade-off and it means the other group on the other side of the map is pushing in largely unobstructed while I'm personally (or in a group) causing t.res loss on alien side :-) .
P.S. I don't think there's anything "troll" about using the abilities in game. Exploding cysts is as troll as setting up a phase gate next to a hive which is as troll as shooting a skulk with an AR. It's... the game?
<!--quoteo(post=2034016:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:02 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 25 2012, 01:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What was that thing someone had in their sig? "Just because you see me say something does not automatically mean i think the sun is full of hotdogs".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034038:date=Nov 24 2012, 11:40 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 24 2012, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034038"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->d'awww, that was heartwarming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's have some perspective here, Wheeee: that signature is freaking amazing.
<!--quoteo(post=2034016:date=Nov 25 2012, 07:02 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Nov 25 2012, 07:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034016"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fantasy world and bad logic. Turning away from a flashbang does not stop it from going off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Remember when I said there are people who jump off cliffs and then complain they can't fly? That's you. Ironically, you (figuritively) can't see past 2 feet in front of your face, and then you complain when you get into ######.
Take that knee jerk aiming skill you appear to value so much, and combine it with some tactical in game thinking and foresight. You will be amazed by how far it goes.
Also, lets just end this thread once and for all. Looking at the video: 1. Two 3 hive lerks flying around (Pretty much the life form MADE to block vision) 2. Fighting on alien infestation (boohoo we got misted, then don't fight on infestation) 3. Power node off line (HERP DERP WHY CAN'T I SEE WHEN <b>THE POWER GOES OFF?</b>)
This thread is a joke, and the amount of people who are showing support is an even bigger one.
Can we stop running this thread like an American presidential election and consider the possibility that there are more than two valid points of view on this topic?
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?
<!--quoteo(post=2034060:date=Nov 25 2012, 12:18 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we stop running this thread like an American presidential election and consider the possibility that there are more than two valid points of view on this topic?
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Say now, that's dangerous thinking, Paul.
<!--quoteo(post=2034060:date=Nov 25 2012, 05:18 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 05:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we stop running this thread like an American presidential election and consider the possibility that there are more than two valid points of view on this topic?
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks, i couldn't bring myself to responding to imbalanxed in a way that wouldn't get the thread locked or something. This very accurately sums up the problem regarding vision block in ns2. There is a 'middleground' with a small set of consolidated, clearly designed, and well implemented vision blockers with which i had hoped we would have had discussion towards and we did for a while untill the same wild trolls appeared. The Whitewalling and "get rid of all of them" is more a strawman put up by said posters.
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->I see a lot of people posting nonconstructive, knee-jerk replies to the OP. Can we have just ONE proper discussion thread for once?
Anyway, I agree with Elodea as usual. IronHorse also makes a good point. Spores are mostly fine as being a smokescreen is one of the ability's primary uses. Everything else should be toned down a bit. The old umbra was fine, I don't know why it was ever changed to this glaringly bright inferno. Almost have to wear sunglasses when I play lerk with umbra.
There's a balance to find between immersive effects and visual clutter. Toning most of these effects down will not hurt the immersion of this game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034072:date=Nov 25 2012, 04:56 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 25 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what are your proposed opacity adjustments and on what abilities then?
That might be a little more interesting to see than, "let's unite together, and with pitchforks and torches we will bring justice to NS2."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> My full post is still right there on the third page. My opacity-specific suggestion was as follows: <!--quoteo(post=2033855:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:30 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>When the lerk flies over the marine and "crop-dusts"</b> The spore particles do not act like real-world clouds, fog or smoke: In the real-world, they can often look completely opaque from the outside, but from inside the cloud you still get some limited visibility that rapidly drops off. From a gameplay perspective, having a particle designed to be viewed at a medium range popping up point-blank in your face can be disorienting and can result in total blindness for half a second or more.
My suggestion would be to have each client modify the opacity of all particles based on their proximity to the camera: From 0 to 0.1 metres, the effect is 10% opaque. At 1m the effect is back to the normal opacity we're used to now. Everything in between is on an opacity gradient.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2034083:date=Nov 25 2012, 05:06 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 25 2012, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034083"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Transparency, and by extension opacity, is not yet implemented in the Spark engine. Any current appearances of such are just hacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ah... Yeah, damn... Good point. Eggs would look more like this if we already had transparency: <div align='center'><img src="http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/946/ns2eggsack.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> </div>
Pity... Having an otherwise small particle pop up in a marine's face is primary concern with the current particle system.
<!--quoteo(post=2034060:date=Nov 25 2012, 08:18 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 08:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034060"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we stop running this thread like an American presidential election and consider the possibility that there are more than two valid points of view on this topic?
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The OP quite clearly asked whether anyone had a problem with the amount of vision obscuring in NS2. I have absolutely no problem with any of the vision obscuring mechanics in NS2. I have no problem with any vision obscuring mechanics in any game regardless of how intense they are. Hell, if a game finds a way to take away my vision completely, while still maintaining balance, that would be like the holy grail of innovation in gaming.
Sorry,but sometimes people aren't looking for a middle ground.
<!--quoteo(post=2034098:date=Nov 25 2012, 07:28 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 25 2012, 07:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034098"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The OP quite clearly asked whether anyone had a Blaaaaaaaaaaaaa<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Congrats on whining from page 1 all the way to page 4. You deserve a medal.
Only particle effects in the video are: Umbra, Jetpack smoke, flamer and for some reason the commander has dropped about 2000 nutrient mists on the floor... No quite sure why there is so much nutrient mist... Either-way the video shows a rather mild case... Personally I don't mind, when I play to do well I turn everything off when I am just lolling around I sometimes turn everything back on.
<!--quoteo(post=2034185:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:40 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 25 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Congrats on whining from page 1 all the way to page 4. You deserve a medal.
Only particle effects in the video are: Umbra, Jetpack smoke, flamer and for some reason the commander has dropped about 2000 nutrient mists on the floor... No quite sure why there is so much nutrient mist... Either-way the video shows a rather mild case... Personally I don't mind, when I play to do well I turn everything off when I am just lolling around I sometimes turn everything back on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you some guy I smacked down in another discussion thread or something? Sorry about that bro, its not my fault your logic falls short or something like that. No real excuse to label whining about whining as whining, especially when I have fewer posts than a few people in this thread. Oh well, being butthurt will do that to you, come back when you know how to argue a point.
<!--quoteo(post=2034185:date=Nov 25 2012, 11:40 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 25 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034185"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I don't mind, when I play to do well I turn everything off when I am just lolling around I sometimes turn everything back on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you would have seen if you weren't too busy playing the big forum IAM troll you would notice I am agreeing with your 4 pages of lol'troll.
<!--quoteo(post=2034212:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:26 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Nov 25 2012, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034212"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you some guy I smacked down in another discussion thread or something?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://twoheadednerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/NERD-FIGHT.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I think a part of the obstruction in NS2 with the particle effects should be there to express the chaos that is taking place when a lerk is dropping umbra/spores and other graphical event effects.
Although I know the transparency isn't implemented in the spark engine yet so I believe it will be toned down to some extent.
<!--quoteo(post=2034238:date=Nov 25 2012, 03:04 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 25 2012, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2034238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As you would have seen if you weren't too busy playing the big forum IAM troll you would notice I am agreeing with your 4 pages of lol'troll.
Have a medal for being blind as well as stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What has that got to do with your confused and unwarranted slight at me? Or are you just trying to highlight the fact that you are illogical and inconsistent? Wait, was this post also a case of you agreeing with me?
I think your own blindness caused you to see some part of my post that referenced your position on the topic, when clearly, there is no mention of it. Nice try though. Brave move making yourself look like an idiot while trying to get your feeble attempt past me.
Ahem. As somebody who loves Natural Selection 2, and refuses to join in on the flame fest instead of posting something constructive, I have words.
Spores are fine, and are doing what they are supposed to do.
Umbra is starting to be a problem, but it IS the Lerk's job to obscure vision, and I'd find it a little odd if an orange mist as radiant as the sun that can DISINTEGRATE BULLETS did not block vision.
Nutrient Mist is not a problem, it's on the floor... however, this thread has definitely made sure I'm going to sneak some mist in to cover skulk rushes now, assuming the model isn't fat enough to be seen above the mist.
Flamethrowers are not a problem. Toning that down would mean lowering its range, and thus its effectiveness. What should be done about it is making the flames much more visible in alien vision, or much more distracting to the player when they're on fire. Flamethrowers are your direct counter to Spores and such. They burn the clouds away in a poof.
Jetpack smoke does need to be toned down a bit. Just a bit. Granted, I've never had problems with it.
Before anyone brings up Bone Walls, they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do, and if I see you ninja killing my harvester, you deserve to be stuck in a mess of bones until my skulks get there to chomp on your fibula. My only regret is that the cooldown is so damn high.
Shade ink clouds, are, again, doing exactly what they're supposed to, and let's not mess with them. For a while I thought, "Maybe the flamethrower should clean this mess up!" But then I thought, "Maybe a flamethrower should ignite the inked up room, killing EVERYONE (on both teams)!"
Crags don't obstruct anything with their green poofs of healing juices.
And that's all of the possible vision obscuring effects I can think of besides cutting the power... and that needs to be buffed! The red emergency lights are no different than the lights being on (for me, at least)! Of course, I played DOOM 3 without a duct tape mod.
it's really funny that Imbalanxd is claiming to be dropping logic bombs on people when every single post contains a logical fallacy which is why I stopped replying
I think Philosophy 105 'Critical Thinking' is as common as Psych 102: generally pretty inane. ... just 100 - 400 bored kids per year per Uni around the world ... most coming out the exam thinking they are like Aristotle or something.
Something very few games get right ... just how obscured a battlefield becomes. Grenades should cause more smoke which lasts longer, at the moment they go fizz like some carnival distraction or a kobold attacking me with its glorious 3 frame animation in Eye of the Beholder 1. Probably doesn't keep in line with the slightly cartoony aesthetic of the rest of the game, but it's ment to be a high explosive right ... ie: expands faster than the speed of sound. Boom vs Fizz. Hl1 and 2 have examples of fast grenade explosions.
Comments
Actually i missed alot of shots, alot of potential shots, and alot of aliens which i never even saw. Any kills were more luck than anything, which is another point i have against vision obstruction. I could have waited for an even more extreme example and purposely not shot anything, but part of me actually wanted to have an honest dicussion still :p.
---------------
Before the number of ignorant and assumptive posts get out of hand (i really don't know why some people defend visual obstruction so vehemently to the point of stupidity), let me try and chew the OP into small enough bites for some of you. You're doing real harm to the longevity of NS2 if you think the level of potential vision obstruction is currently fine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hopefully UWE has a look at the purpose of each visually obstructing mechanic and has a think about whether it fits their purpose, because quite honestly it's over the top.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To prevent TL;DR i'm going to just go through a few very quickly
<b>Spore</b>
Designed to vision block. Is it too much for the damage dealt, is the damage too much for the ammount of vision block, or is the balance here fine?
<b>Umbra</b>
Designed to block bullets, not emulate the sun.
<b>Flamethrower effect</b>
Designed to burn away visually obstructing effects. Ends up causing more vision obstruction.
<b>Jetpack smoke</b>
Designed to make jetpacking look natural. Only affects marine vision and ends up being nearly as obscuring as spore but shorter duration.
<b>Nutrient Mist</b>
Designed to speed up maturation. Most useful utility ends up being vision block of ground moving objects. Effect is stackable for crazy long lasting vision block.
<b>Drifter enzyme</b>
Designed to speed up attacks. Effect also ends up obscuring vision and is stackable.
<b>Whip bombard</b>
Designed to strip armour and kill structures. Ends up causing seizure effects.
<b>Scan circles</b>
Designed to provide an advantage to marines by making it easier to track and shoot aliens. Ends up causing so much vision obscuration it ends up being a <b>disadvantage</b>.
I'm not trying to get all the effects removed. I'm not trying to get a whitewalled game with green skulk models and miserable players who play for competition (what?). All i'm asking for is a little design clarity and focus instead of "this looks kool, lets do it". Where fit, effects should really be toned down and have possible counters (such as turning away from a flashbang) - there is obviously room for it. In all other cases, the visually immersive component should not materially impede the gameplay component. UWE has already done this somewhat with infestation (simple/complex option) where the complex version will have visually obscuring 'bubbles' that skulks can hide in.
While the video example i provided was mainly umbra, spore, flamethrower effects, and nutrient mist, the focus was this is how it looks like even <b>without the alien khammander using the other half of mechanics that are also visually obstructing</b>. I also didn't have atmospherics, bloom, fog, or complex infestation turned on so it would have looked much worse. Was hoping someone had footage of the full course menu so to speak.
*
<!--quoteo(post=2033927:date=Nov 25 2012, 01:12 PM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Nov 25 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And all I see here is a marine team, already lost the game, losing its last position.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
P.S. We didn't lose the game thanks to virginsuits.
In my experience, that's exactly what you're trying to do. That's what NS1 was as well, from what I've seen, with all the settings turned low and gamma on high.
You already play on low, when you probably have a more than capable vid card to turn at least half the settings up.
But anyway, back on topic.
Every "severely vision obscuring" ability has a counter that shuts the ability down before it can even be done - a counter like turning away from the flashbang.
A lerk has to get close enough to be 1- or at least 2-shot to spore. A good marine team will shut the lerk down before it can even come close enough. You have to have infestation to mist or cyst explode. You have to let a gorge's crappy slow-moving projectile hit you to cause a splat which disappears in 2 seconds anyway. Umbra is 3 hives, costs ridiculous amounts of t.res and time to research (with the added hive build time it's easily at least 10 minutes before it's researched), and I personally can see just fine through it.
I'm not even counting things like jetpack smoke in with the others. They've never bothered me at all. The only "effect" which I dislike on the marine team is the flashlight fog, which I still think should be turned down in opacity or removed.
What was that thing someone had in their sig? "Just because you see me say something does not automatically mean i think the sun is full of hotdogs".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You already play on low, when you probably have a more than capable vid card to turn at least half the settings up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you know what vid card i have? Are you stalking me? Is this a passive aggressive threat?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every "severely vision obscuring" ability has a counter that shuts the ability down before it can even be done - a counter like turning away from the flashbang.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fantasy world and bad logic. Turning away from a flashbang does not stop it from going off.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lerk has to get close enough to be 1- or at least 2-shot to spore. A good marine team will shut the lerk down before it can even come close enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why spores are unviable in comp, but totally troll in pub.
Not a fantasy world, and my logic is solid. When you say something like this, you should probably follow-up with where the logic is "bad." I shouldn't even have to say this, but I guess ironically enough you don't seem to understand how constructing a counter-argument works.
Turning away is the counter to a flashbang. Shutting a lerk down with a shotgun before he can start sporing is the counter to spores. Shooting infestation from far away, or preventing it from entering your area is the counter to cyst eruption and misting (even though I wouldn't count mist as vision-obscuring at all. it is as harmless as jetpack smoke to me). Should I break it down into a more simple elements for you to understand the metaphor?
The construction of your OP shows nothing more than... the game itself... but it is designed, from the title to the last word, in a way which assumes that the majority of people share your feelings and you'd like to start some kind of "revolution" where the masses rise up and transform this unfair game into what the "people" want, based on pure feelings that "oh my gosh, the vision obscuring effects are oh-so-terrible." As much as you'd like to believe that's the case, I just don't think that it is. They're pretty well-designed, as they are, and they have their time and place.
I just hope the Charlie doesn't have the same emotional knee-jerk reaction to these troll threads as he did to the ridiculously stupid videos of the "three shift rushes" into the marine starting position last week. Because the shift changes did hurt enjoyable gameplay, for me at least.
<!--QuoteBegin-me+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (me)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Turning away from a flashbang does not stop it from going off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Turning away is the counter to a flashbang. Shutting a lerk down with a shotgun before he can start sporing is the counter to spores.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between winning being the counter to losing (something that counters something else before it happens), and turning away from a flashbang (something that counters something after the fact in prescience).
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shooting infestation from far away, or preventing it from entering your area is the counter to cyst eruption and misting (even though I wouldn't count mist as vision-obscuring at all. it is as harmless as jetpack smoke to me). Should I break it down into a more simple elements for you to understand the metaphor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasting all that ammo into cysts when aliens are now trying to kill you doesn't sound like a good idea anymore does it.
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The construction of your OP shows nothing more than... the game itself... but it is designed, from the title to the last word, in a way which assumes that the majority of people share your feelings and you'd like to start some kind of "revolution" where the masses rise up and transform this unfair game into what the "people" want, based on pure feelings that "oh my gosh, the vision obscuring effects are oh-so-terrible." As much as you'd like to believe that's the case, I just don't think that it is. They're pretty well-designed, as they are, and they have their time and place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-me+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (me)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you have a problem with the ammount of vision obstruction in Natural immersion 2, please add your footage here and hopefully we can start something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Revolution? lol. It was a critique of vision obstruction currently in NS2. Critique comes before the constructive discussion and as Charlie has indicated, he requires trends (usually in the form of lots of videos) for him to be able to see a problem. Also note i said <b>If</b>. I indicated no majority.
<!--QuoteBegin-HeatSurge+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just hope the Charlie doesn't have the same emotional knee-jerk reaction to these troll threads as he did to the ridiculously stupid videos of the "three shift rushes" into the marine starting position last week. Because the shift changes did hurt enjoyable gameplay, for me at least.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find it ironic that threads addressing troll mechanics are labelled troll. If you ever find yourself playing against me as alien kham, i think you'll end up changing servers.
I actually play marines almost exclusively lately, because marine wins are hard and few on pubs these days. It's good practice for when marine teams start to suck less in the future.
And actually, I don't think that anyone comming on alien side really would annoy me, because the commander really can't do much in battle. I've played against good coms, and sure, they can spam infestation somewhere, faster than a single marine can kill it, do things like bone walls, ink, cyst eruption, drifter rushes, etc., but these things are so costly that you can usually only do them when the alien team has already won. Except cyst eruption, but I don't consider that useful enough for its cost as it is. Also, if the alien com is spending resources or efforts on me as an individual marine or on an individual marine position, I always don't mind it because it's always a trade-off and it means the other group on the other side of the map is pushing in largely unobstructed while I'm personally (or in a group) causing t.res loss on alien side :-) .
P.S. I don't think there's anything "troll" about using the abilities in game. Exploding cysts is as troll as setting up a phase gate next to a hive which is as troll as shooting a skulk with an AR. It's... the game?
d'awww, that was heartwarming.
Let's have some perspective here, Wheeee: that signature is freaking amazing.
Remember when I said there are people who jump off cliffs and then complain they can't fly? That's you. Ironically, you (figuritively) can't see past 2 feet in front of your face, and then you complain when you get into ######.
Take that knee jerk aiming skill you appear to value so much, and combine it with some tactical in game thinking and foresight. You will be amazed by how far it goes.
Also, lets just end this thread once and for all.
Looking at the video:
1. Two 3 hive lerks flying around (Pretty much the life form MADE to block vision)
2. Fighting on alien infestation (boohoo we got misted, then don't fight on infestation)
3. Power node off line (HERP DERP WHY CAN'T I SEE WHEN <b>THE POWER GOES OFF?</b>)
This thread is a joke, and the amount of people who are showing support is an even bigger one.
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Say now, that's dangerous thinking, Paul.
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, i couldn't bring myself to responding to imbalanxed in a way that wouldn't get the thread locked or something. This very accurately sums up the problem regarding vision block in ns2. There is a 'middleground' with a small set of consolidated, clearly designed, and well implemented vision blockers with which i had hoped we would have had discussion towards and we did for a while untill the same wild trolls appeared. The Whitewalling and "get rid of all of them" is more a strawman put up by said posters.
Anyway, I agree with Elodea as usual. IronHorse also makes a good point. Spores are mostly fine as being a smokescreen is one of the ability's primary uses. Everything else should be toned down a bit. The old umbra was fine, I don't know why it was ever changed to this glaringly bright inferno. Almost have to wear sunglasses when I play lerk with umbra.
There's a balance to find between immersive effects and visual clutter. Toning most of these effects down will not hurt the immersion of this game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
That might be a little more interesting to see than, "let's unite together, and with pitchforks and torches we will bring justice to NS2."
That might be a little more interesting to see than, "let's unite together, and with pitchforks and torches we will bring justice to NS2."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My full post is still right there on the third page. My opacity-specific suggestion was as follows:
<!--quoteo(post=2033855:date=Nov 25 2012, 10:30 AM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Nov 25 2012, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2033855"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>When the lerk flies over the marine and "crop-dusts"</b>
The spore particles do not act like real-world clouds, fog or smoke: In the real-world, they can often look completely opaque from the outside, but from inside the cloud you still get some limited visibility that rapidly drops off. From a gameplay perspective, having a particle designed to be viewed at a medium range popping up point-blank in your face can be disorienting and can result in total blindness for half a second or more.
My suggestion would be to have each client modify the opacity of all particles based on their proximity to the camera: From 0 to 0.1 metres, the effect is 10% opaque. At 1m the effect is back to the normal opacity we're used to now. Everything in between is on an opacity gradient.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless someone has a source I've missed.
<div align='center'><img src="http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/946/ns2eggsack.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
</div>
Pity... Having an otherwise small particle pop up in a marine's face is primary concern with the current particle system.
We seem to be swinging back n forth between "Vision blockers are annoying, get rid of ALL of them!" to "Working completely as intended, don't touch it at all!".
How about we try talking more about consolidating vision blocking abilities into a smaller number of abilities that are purpose-built for vision blocking, or changing up the colour scheme of some of these vision blockers so that they don't present such a psychedelic display when they're all used together, or performing client-side ranged-based opacity tweaking to allow vision blocks to be effective at short-long range, but still allow some point-blank visibility?
You know, like actually debating the topic on its merits (as opposed to flinging personal insults around), and coming up with a reasonable compromise?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The OP quite clearly asked whether anyone had a problem with the amount of vision obscuring in NS2. I have absolutely no problem with any of the vision obscuring mechanics in NS2. I have no problem with any vision obscuring mechanics in any game regardless of how intense they are. Hell, if a game finds a way to take away my vision completely, while still maintaining balance, that would be like the holy grail of innovation in gaming.
Sorry,but sometimes people aren't looking for a middle ground.
Congrats on whining from page 1 all the way to page 4.
You deserve a medal.
Only particle effects in the video are:
Umbra, Jetpack smoke, flamer and for some reason the commander has dropped about 2000 nutrient mists on the floor...
No quite sure why there is so much nutrient mist...
Either-way the video shows a rather mild case...
Personally I don't mind, when I play to do well I turn everything off when I am just lolling around I sometimes turn everything back on.
You deserve a medal.
Only particle effects in the video are:
Umbra, Jetpack smoke, flamer and for some reason the commander has dropped about 2000 nutrient mists on the floor...
No quite sure why there is so much nutrient mist...
Either-way the video shows a rather mild case...
Personally I don't mind, when I play to do well I turn everything off when I am just lolling around I sometimes turn everything back on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you some guy I smacked down in another discussion thread or something? Sorry about that bro, its not my fault your logic falls short or something like that. No real excuse to label whining about whining as whining, especially when I have fewer posts than a few people in this thread. Oh well, being butthurt will do that to you, come back when you know how to argue a point.
As you would have seen if you weren't too busy playing the big forum IAM troll you would notice I am agreeing with your 4 pages of lol'troll.
Have a medal for being blind as well as stupid.
<img src="http://twoheadednerd.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/NERD-FIGHT.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Although I know the transparency isn't implemented in the spark engine yet so I believe it will be toned down to some extent.
Have a medal for being blind as well as stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What has that got to do with your confused and unwarranted slight at me? Or are you just trying to highlight the fact that you are illogical and inconsistent? Wait, was this post also a case of you agreeing with me?
I think your own blindness caused you to see some part of my post that referenced your position on the topic, when clearly, there is no mention of it. Nice try though. Brave move making yourself look like an idiot while trying to get your feeble attempt past me.
Spores are fine, and are doing what they are supposed to do.
Umbra is starting to be a problem, but it IS the Lerk's job to obscure vision, and I'd find it a little odd if an orange mist as radiant as the sun that can DISINTEGRATE BULLETS did not block vision.
Nutrient Mist is not a problem, it's on the floor... however, this thread has definitely made sure I'm going to sneak some mist in to cover skulk rushes now, assuming the model isn't fat enough to be seen above the mist.
Flamethrowers are not a problem. Toning that down would mean lowering its range, and thus its effectiveness. What should be done about it is making the flames much more visible in alien vision, or much more distracting to the player when they're on fire. Flamethrowers are your direct counter to Spores and such. They burn the clouds away in a poof.
Jetpack smoke does need to be toned down a bit. Just a bit. Granted, I've never had problems with it.
Before anyone brings up Bone Walls, they're doing exactly what they're supposed to do, and if I see you ninja killing my harvester, you deserve to be stuck in a mess of bones until my skulks get there to chomp on your fibula. My only regret is that the cooldown is so damn high.
Shade ink clouds, are, again, doing exactly what they're supposed to, and let's not mess with them. For a while I thought, "Maybe the flamethrower should clean this mess up!" But then I thought, "Maybe a flamethrower should ignite the inked up room, killing EVERYONE (on both teams)!"
Crags don't obstruct anything with their green poofs of healing juices.
And that's all of the possible vision obscuring effects I can think of besides cutting the power... and that needs to be buffed! The red emergency lights are no different than the lights being on (for me, at least)! Of course, I played DOOM 3 without a duct tape mod.
Something very few games get right ... just how obscured a battlefield becomes. Grenades should cause more smoke which lasts longer, at the moment they go fizz like some carnival distraction or a kobold attacking me with its glorious 3 frame animation in Eye of the Beholder 1. Probably doesn't keep in line with the slightly cartoony aesthetic of the rest of the game, but it's ment to be a high explosive right ... ie: expands faster than the speed of sound. Boom vs Fizz. Hl1 and 2 have examples of fast grenade explosions.