<!--quoteo(post=2027559:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:36 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 18 2012, 02:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027559"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Increased Lerk health from 125 to 175. - Increase Lerk carapace from 75 to 100.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->WHY?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->No one can truly understand how Flayra's mind works...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
The lerk also seems like a reasonable next step evolution to the skulk, more durable in battle now and instead having to crawl on walls you can simply fly overheads or through vents, i am completely unable to see how the lerk may now be overpowered.
275 HP, seems reasonable enough for a 30 pres investment.
I think the lerk health buff is not needed. They are in a good place early game. The carapace buff can remain though to help them transition into late game when they turn into a more support-ish class, using spores and umbra. Lerks can stop using regen and starting using carapace late game with this buff so they can stay alive to support.
Fade buffs look good but may not be adequate. I think they're the class that needs a <i>slight</i> health buff.
I think everyone agrees that the main problem with balance right now is the early Onos. This should be the main thing being touched upon in this balance patch. No idea how to fix it, though. Maybe you should have to upgrade the ability to spawn an Onos for your team as comm? Keep it attached to the second hive but make them research it, or possibly make them have to put down a physical structure so you can spawn other species for your team (like the other alien upgrades with the spur, veil and shell).
<!--quoteo(post=2027663:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:07 AM:name=AFireInAsa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AFireInAsa @ Nov 18 2012, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the lerk health buff is not needed. They are in a good place early game. The carapace buff can remain though to help them transition into late game when they turn into a more support-ish class, using spores and umbra. Lerks can stop using regen and starting using carapace late game with this buff so they can stay alive to support.
Fade buffs look good but may not be adequate. I think they're the class that needs a <i>slight</i> health buff.
I think everyone agrees that the main problem with balance right now is the early Onos. This should be the main thing being touched upon in this balance patch. No idea how to fix it, though. Maybe you should have to upgrade the ability to spawn an Onos for your team as comm? Keep it attached to the second hive but make them research it, or possibly make them have to put down a physical structure so you can spawn other species for your team (like the other alien upgrades with the spur, veil and shell).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade need either a big health buff or a big attack buff, perhaps both because right now there is no reason to choose it over Onos.
Lerk is pretty useless late game, all you can really do is devote yourself to sporing everything which just isn't fun, or using umbra while hoping a grenade doesn't land next to you, i don't think an extra 25 HP alone will solve the issue of the lerk being too fragile for a 30 pres unit, 75 extra HP seems fair enough for late game.
Or how about remove the health buff and instead make carapace knock the lerks HP up to 275, however that will probably mean that Carapace will be the mandatory upgrade at the start of every game, either way the lerk needs to better late game.
All the units and all their abilities should be equally viable at any point in the game.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I can't imagine the Lerk changes will make it into the actual patch. We (Archaea) have played with it a bit; it is just as hilariously OP as the numbers suggest, and we have communicated that to Flayra.
<!--quoteo(post=2027677:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:28 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 18 2012, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't imagine the Lerk changes will make it into the actual patch. We (Archaea) have played with it a bit; it is just as hilariously OP as the numbers suggest, and we have communicated that to Flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2027677:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:28 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 18 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't imagine the Lerk changes will make it into the actual patch. We (Archaea) have played with it a bit; it is just as hilariously OP as the numbers suggest, and we have communicated that to Flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The lerk needs a HP buff separate from Carapace and his starting stats so that the lerk and all of his available skills are viable late game, maybe a mid/late game buff for the lerk which adds 75hp or so.
That if is he is OP at the start which i am unsure about, maybe a more in-depth explanation would be nice.
My comments for the survey. Just theorycrafting though.
2. More of collision issues. Fustrating when playing both rines and aliens. 5. Shadow step's inability to bend is a liability against good shooters. Only good for diving down from high places after blinking upwards. 6. Before buff, already has better stats than NS1 and very good in direct combat with skulks support. 1 hive lerk is only viable for cele. Buff base speed slightly to increase viability for other chambers. 7. Yes, much easier to defend a smaller area early, then reap the benefits of a fast 2nd hive to catch up. 8. Pub (8v8) experience: good fades and lerks are still better. Onos is better only when comm diverts res to static instead of tech/upgrades. 9. Games depends too much on killing aliens rts. Buff aliens early game viability to play aggressive in terms of map control. Skulks engagements should occur anywhere on map. Nerf aliens/buff marines mid-game or buff mines to compensate. Right now in early game, aliens are way contained in their area and few scans can easily fish them out. Essentially it all boils down to how well rines can shoot in these few big engagements. Very easy to med spam and come out ahead.
I think it's pretty obvious that lerks with 375 ehp are going to be op as hell, with this balance patch you don't even need to rush a 2nd hive because you can just go crags + lerks and have a whole team of effectively flying fades (only 25ehp less!) after a few minutes. I do think that lerks could use a small amount more base hp and slightly stronger carapace than they currently have in 229, but something like +10/15 more on each. Otherwise make them a little faster without cele.
I can't realistically see a simple way of avoiding uber early lerks or fades without either making them nonviable lategame (i.e. vs. w2/3 marines with some shotties and/or GLs) or giving them some kind of researchable or hive-linked HP/armour buff. It stands to reason that if unit A vs unit B is balanced then unit A vs unit B with 30% more damage and a huge chunk more ehp is going to be unbalanced. Currently, onos are massively overtuned and too easy to get too early on top of being huge sacks of hp and damage, but if the next patch nerfs onos without buffing alien midgame then marines are going to dominate unless they're extremely passive and fail to expand.
<!--quoteo(post=2027713:date=Nov 18 2012, 02:16 AM:name=RabidWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RabidWeasel @ Nov 18 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's pretty obvious that lerks with 375 ehp are going to be op as hell, with this balance patch you don't even need to rush a 2nd hive because you can just go crags + lerks and have a whole team of effectively flying fades (only 25ehp less!) after a few minutes. I do think that lerks could use a small amount more base hp and slightly stronger carapace than they currently have in 229, but something like +10/15 more on each. Otherwise make them a little faster without cele.
I can't realistically see a simple way of avoiding uber early lerks or fades without either making them nonviable lategame (i.e. vs. w2/3 marines with some shotties and/or GLs) or giving them some kind of researchable or hive-linked HP/armour buff. It stands to reason that if unit A vs unit B is balanced then unit A vs unit B with 30% more damage and a huge chunk more ehp is going to be unbalanced. Currently, onos are massively overtuned and too easy to get too early on top of being huge sacks of hp and damage, but if the next patch nerfs onos without buffing alien midgame then marines are going to dominate unless they're extremely passive and fail to expand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is if you do decide to buy a lerk or a Fade you are not going to be able to go Onos as quickly, if you ask me that is a fair enough sacrifice for the early strength of the Lerk and the Fade, right now there is no reason at all to sacrifice that pres on those two units as the Onos is a thousand times better than both of them.
So perhaps up the cost of the lerk and give it the 75 HP buff, maybe make the skulk a little stronger too.
Otherwise i don't see how this will work, playing lerk is not that fun right now and there is no reason at all to sacrifice pres on them if you can be shot down in a fraction of a second before you even have the chance to escape, same with the fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2027677:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:28 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Nov 18 2012, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't imagine the Lerk changes will make it into the actual patch. We (Archaea) have played with it a bit; it is just as hilariously OP as the numbers suggest, and we have communicated that to Flayra.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't play the mod, but I thought so... Wasn't looking forward to flying fades with 1/4 the hitbox and ranged spikes for 20 res less.
I hope he listens. Fades need a slight buff IMO; lerk is fine.
Lerk is fine early on, but it needs some sort of buff in the lategame since it just falls off terribly vs W and A 3 marines imo. Fades could use the health buff instead. Onos stats are fine (although the slight range decrease is a good thing skill-wise), they just need to address the timing issue.
I was going to say... a 175hp/100a lerk is basically a fade with wings, spikes, spores, umbra, roost and superior mobility. Just save to 30 res, go lerk, gg. But I would have liked to see the base hp increased to 150, base armor increased to 60, and carapace armor increased to 90. Then buff fade to 250hp and 100a to start, 150a with carapace (sound familiar?).
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2027817:date=Nov 18 2012, 08:16 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 18 2012, 08:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk is fine early on, but it needs some sort of buff in the lategame since it just falls off terribly vs W and A 3 marines imo. Fades could use the health buff instead. Onos stats are fine (although the slight range decrease is a good thing skill-wise), they just need to address the timing issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When Marines have A3/W3 you shouldn't be trying to solo marines at all. You should be shifting back to your Support DPS role as the high-design document lists the Lerk as. Such as attaching yourself to the butt of an Onos and giving him both marine visual-blocking and damage reduction support (if you have umbra). The main change to the Lerk that needs to be done is to fix Umbra so that it lives up to its Tier 3 status. Give the armor/HP buff to the Fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2027984:date=Nov 18 2012, 12:38 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 18 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When Marines have A3/W3 you shouldn't be trying to solo marines at all. You should be shifting back to your Support DPS role as the high-design document lists the Lerk as. Such as attaching yourself to the butt of an Onos and giving him both marine visual-blocking and damage reduction support (if you have umbra). The main change to the Lerk that needs to be done is to fix Umbra so that it lives up to its Tier 3 status. Give the armor/HP buff to the Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Whatever your feelings on the Lerk or its role in the game, the reality is that, with the way the game is currently balanced, the Lerk is sitting pretty much where it needs to be for 229. If you want to help aliens (and the Lerk) scale into late game, then Umbra needs some work. But that's it for the Lerk. If you make it a flying Fade, I promise you it will be a change you'll regret very quickly.
While Public games are poor measures of balance for Competitive games, and vice versa, those players who are very experienced with the Lerk can easily go on killing sprees of 35-0, even against shotguns, in early public games.
I understand, and sympathize, with the desire for the Lerk to scale better into late game, but while buffing its armor and hp does this, it affords the Lifeform far too much power in its already formidible early and mid game.
If this change makes it into the next build, I wish you all luck in your reinactment of The Birds.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
I feel lerk is in a pretty good place right now. Its good early game, but its effectiveness trails towards the lategame. The biggests issues I see are: - Early shotguns (typically with w1/a1) are a bit too effective against lerks. Its a 30PRes class, so it should have a slight edge against a 20PRes weapon where, in practice, its the shotgunner that has the edge. - I can count on one hand the number of times I've been on an alien team that has researched umbra since the release. Tier3 alien tech just doesn't get researched very often, such that the lerk is often missing one of their crucial end-game abilities.
I can't speak to competitive games but a competent Lerk is an early/mid-game pubstomp machine already. The HP buff is just going to make them silly. If they need help scaling in the late game, this isn't the way to do it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Make umbra last on a lifeform at least up to 3 seconds once they leave the cloud. The fast / mobile team should not have to sit in that cloud to combat.. marines sure dont. That would at least help late game lerk.
To help early game lerk you have to adjust the shotgun / spread.
I don't mind the Carapace change on the Lerk. 25 armor is not worth an entire upgrade, especially over the strong Regeneration changes. 50 HP buff is probably not necessary, but I would try reducing it to 25 hp maybe, or messing around with base armor. they can't be completely paper thin. competent shooters drop Lerks in competitive play.
I hope UW are thinking this stuff out properly and not just having a knee jerk reaction to negative posts of the forum.
The Lerk is ok imo until late game which by then simply needs a change in strategy rather than buffs. Umbra rarely gets researched which is a shame as its a great help at destroying the final marine base. Get behind the Onii and Umbra while using spikes to soften the marines up is what the Lerk should be doing late game and not trying to take W3/A3 marines head on. Even trying to spore late game is suicide against decent players. I can foresee lots of "Lerk OP" threads coming up. If anything the problem is the high damage from distance the SG does. Fair enough if as a Skulk or Lerk I am in a Marines face that SG blast should be devastating but not at the distances it is now capable of. If anything the Fade needs a little extra health or armour as atm its not being used as much due to the high cost and how fragile they are against SGs.
I see the Skulk bite is once again looking like it could be changed. Has anyone complained about it OP or too weak lately? I don't think so. Its fine as it is and with the glancing bite system it actually feels right for the first time in a while. Please don't change it, unless you really want to frustrate players, especially the new ones.
<!--quoteo(post=2028055:date=Nov 18 2012, 06:58 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Nov 18 2012, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope UW are thinking this stuff out properly and not just having a knee jerk reaction to negative posts of the forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't recall a post asking for a massive health buff to the Lerk.
Seems to me that it's the Fade that needs the Health/Armour increase right now (it doesn't have to as extreme as reverting to NS1), but the Lerk's <i>abilities</i> need to be better to pay for his fragility, which he could then keep as-is. Spore clouds could be wider or slightly more damaging to make him better mid-game and Umbra could be buffed in any way that made people actually get it. And, as someone else said, he needs to be quicker without Celerity so it's not so crucial to take.
The true madness here is the huge adjustment. Why increase health massively when you could have increased it slightly and have seen how that went?
The spore damage is already excellent, buffing it more would be outrageous. The problem really is that by the time it usually gets researched, it's already useless since marines have SGs and W upgrades making that crop-dusting lerk an easy target. Spores were great as a T1, I really don't see why they can't be moved back. Spikes will work fine at T2, to counter SGs and JPs. That's ALL that needs to happen to be honest.
Spores are in an excellent place IMO. If marines are distracted by something else, and clustered together, spores do MASSIVE damage, not just in health damage but also confusion from the clouds, enabling teammates to decimate that marine group.
You can be 1-shot without carapace, and even with carapace (I think?) if the shot is point blank, but then again it's very hard to land that shot on a surprising lerk coming from behind or when there's lots of action going on.
If you go head-on into 2+ marines alone, even with ARs as lerk, you're probably going to die, as you should :-) .
<!--quoteo(post=2028126:date=Nov 18 2012, 03:46 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 18 2012, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2028126"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We had spores from the start for over 200 builds, it wasn't OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but during those 200 builds Spores was incredibly weak. It was moved to a second hive ability, and then justifiably buffed, because Spikes was an unappealing second hive ability (seems like a minor upgrade compared to leap, bile, and blink).
If you move spores back to a first hive ability, then it's just going to get nerfed again and nobody will be happy.
Please, leave the Lerk alone and go try and balance something else.
Spore damage is great and it feels fine as a second hive ability. If the Lerk is too fragile to use it properly mid/late-game then the better solution is to drop the crop-dusting and make it more like Umbra, but I think it's too soon to make that call.
<!--quoteo(post=2027173:date=Nov 17 2012, 02:20 PM:name=Bad Mojo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bad Mojo @ Nov 17 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2027173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Isaac Newton would roll over in his grave if he read this.
Did you not consider that Jupiter is much MUCH farther away from the sun, thus its longer revolution time. It has nothing to do with its size. In fact Mercury, the closest planet to the sun, moves the fastest at ~107,000 mph, while Pluto, the SMALLEST yet furthest planet moves at only ~10,000 mph.
Anyway the original argument was that an Onos is huge and should move slower. False. The fact that it is bigger, plus the fact that in appearance it is very muscular, means it is covering larger strides with greater ease. Anything running on four legs generally runs faster than us bipeds.
And the nonsensical use of jetpacks indoors aside, would you want jetpackers to be able to easily outrun an Onos? That would lead to kiting by the JPer, with nothing the Onos can do; if he tries to run away, the JPer will chase him and easily keep up, and if the Onos tries to attack, the JP keeps its distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was thinking the same thing! Ha! It's like people who claim driving really fast burns less fuel in an hour than driving an hour at slow speeds... nerp.
Comments
We're not arguing about what's going into B230 here, we're arguing about an experiment.
- Increase Lerk carapace from 75 to 100.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->WHY?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->No one can truly understand how Flayra's mind works...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
275 HP, seems reasonable enough for a 30 pres investment.
Fade buffs look good but may not be adequate. I think they're the class that needs a <i>slight</i> health buff.
I think everyone agrees that the main problem with balance right now is the early Onos. This should be the main thing being touched upon in this balance patch. No idea how to fix it, though. Maybe you should have to upgrade the ability to spawn an Onos for your team as comm? Keep it attached to the second hive but make them research it, or possibly make them have to put down a physical structure so you can spawn other species for your team (like the other alien upgrades with the spur, veil and shell).
Fade buffs look good but may not be adequate. I think they're the class that needs a <i>slight</i> health buff.
I think everyone agrees that the main problem with balance right now is the early Onos. This should be the main thing being touched upon in this balance patch. No idea how to fix it, though. Maybe you should have to upgrade the ability to spawn an Onos for your team as comm? Keep it attached to the second hive but make them research it, or possibly make them have to put down a physical structure so you can spawn other species for your team (like the other alien upgrades with the spur, veil and shell).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fade need either a big health buff or a big attack buff, perhaps both because right now there is no reason to choose it over Onos.
Lerk is pretty useless late game, all you can really do is devote yourself to sporing everything which just isn't fun, or using umbra while hoping a grenade doesn't land next to you, i don't think an extra 25 HP alone will solve the issue of the lerk being too fragile for a 30 pres unit, 75 extra HP seems fair enough for late game.
Or how about remove the health buff and instead make carapace knock the lerks HP up to 275, however that will probably mean that Carapace will be the mandatory upgrade at the start of every game, either way the lerk needs to better late game.
All the units and all their abilities should be equally viable at any point in the game.
But we could have had super lerks!
The lerk needs a HP buff separate from Carapace and his starting stats so that the lerk and all of his available skills are viable late game, maybe a mid/late game buff for the lerk which adds 75hp or so.
That if is he is OP at the start which i am unsure about, maybe a more in-depth explanation would be nice.
2. More of collision issues. Fustrating when playing both rines and aliens.
5. Shadow step's inability to bend is a liability against good shooters. Only good for diving down from high places after blinking upwards.
6. Before buff, already has better stats than NS1 and very good in direct combat with skulks support. 1 hive lerk is only viable for cele. Buff base speed slightly to increase viability for other chambers.
7. Yes, much easier to defend a smaller area early, then reap the benefits of a fast 2nd hive to catch up.
8. Pub (8v8) experience: good fades and lerks are still better. Onos is better only when comm diverts res to static instead of tech/upgrades.
9. Games depends too much on killing aliens rts. Buff aliens early game viability to play aggressive in terms of map control. Skulks engagements should occur anywhere on map. Nerf aliens/buff marines mid-game or buff mines to compensate.
Right now in early game, aliens are way contained in their area and few scans can easily fish them out. Essentially it all boils down to how well rines can shoot in these few big engagements. Very easy to med spam and come out ahead.
I can't realistically see a simple way of avoiding uber early lerks or fades without either making them nonviable lategame (i.e. vs. w2/3 marines with some shotties and/or GLs) or giving them some kind of researchable or hive-linked HP/armour buff. It stands to reason that if unit A vs unit B is balanced then unit A vs unit B with 30% more damage and a huge chunk more ehp is going to be unbalanced. Currently, onos are massively overtuned and too easy to get too early on top of being huge sacks of hp and damage, but if the next patch nerfs onos without buffing alien midgame then marines are going to dominate unless they're extremely passive and fail to expand.
I can't realistically see a simple way of avoiding uber early lerks or fades without either making them nonviable lategame (i.e. vs. w2/3 marines with some shotties and/or GLs) or giving them some kind of researchable or hive-linked HP/armour buff. It stands to reason that if unit A vs unit B is balanced then unit A vs unit B with 30% more damage and a huge chunk more ehp is going to be unbalanced. Currently, onos are massively overtuned and too easy to get too early on top of being huge sacks of hp and damage, but if the next patch nerfs onos without buffing alien midgame then marines are going to dominate unless they're extremely passive and fail to expand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is if you do decide to buy a lerk or a Fade you are not going to be able to go Onos as quickly, if you ask me that is a fair enough sacrifice for the early strength of the Lerk and the Fade, right now there is no reason at all to sacrifice that pres on those two units as the Onos is a thousand times better than both of them.
So perhaps up the cost of the lerk and give it the 75 HP buff, maybe make the skulk a little stronger too.
Otherwise i don't see how this will work, playing lerk is not that fun right now and there is no reason at all to sacrifice pres on them if you can be shot down in a fraction of a second before you even have the chance to escape, same with the fade.
I didn't play the mod, but I thought so... Wasn't looking forward to flying fades with 1/4 the hitbox and ranged spikes for 20 res less.
I hope he listens. Fades need a slight buff IMO; lerk is fine.
Oh, and focus as a fade-only upgrade.
When Marines have A3/W3 you shouldn't be trying to solo marines at all. You should be shifting back to your Support DPS role as the high-design document lists the Lerk as. Such as attaching yourself to the butt of an Onos and giving him both marine visual-blocking and damage reduction support (if you have umbra). The main change to the Lerk that needs to be done is to fix Umbra so that it lives up to its Tier 3 status. Give the armor/HP buff to the Fade.
This. Whatever your feelings on the Lerk or its role in the game, the reality is that, with the way the game is currently balanced, the Lerk is sitting pretty much where it needs to be for 229. If you want to help aliens (and the Lerk) scale into late game, then Umbra needs some work. But that's it for the Lerk. If you make it a flying Fade, I promise you it will be a change you'll regret very quickly.
While Public games are poor measures of balance for Competitive games, and vice versa, those players who are very experienced with the Lerk can easily go on killing sprees of 35-0, even against shotguns, in early public games.
I understand, and sympathize, with the desire for the Lerk to scale better into late game, but while buffing its armor and hp does this, it affords the Lifeform far too much power in its already formidible early and mid game.
If this change makes it into the next build, I wish you all luck in your reinactment of The Birds.
- Early shotguns (typically with w1/a1) are a bit too effective against lerks. Its a 30PRes class, so it should have a slight edge against a 20PRes weapon where, in practice, its the shotgunner that has the edge.
- I can count on one hand the number of times I've been on an alien team that has researched umbra since the release. Tier3 alien tech just doesn't get researched very often, such that the lerk is often missing one of their crucial end-game abilities.
That would at least help late game lerk.
To help early game lerk you have to adjust the shotgun / spread.
50 HP buff is probably not necessary, but I would try reducing it to 25 hp maybe, or messing around with base armor. they can't be completely paper thin. competent shooters drop Lerks in competitive play.
The Lerk is ok imo until late game which by then simply needs a change in strategy rather than buffs. Umbra rarely gets researched which is a shame as its a great help at destroying the final marine base. Get behind the Onii and Umbra while using spikes to soften the marines up is what the Lerk should be doing late game and not trying to take W3/A3 marines head on. Even trying to spore late game is suicide against decent players. I can foresee lots of "Lerk OP" threads coming up. If anything the problem is the high damage from distance the SG does. Fair enough if as a Skulk or Lerk I am in a Marines face that SG blast should be devastating but not at the distances it is now capable of. If anything the Fade needs a little extra health or armour as atm its not being used as much due to the high cost and how fragile they are against SGs.
I see the Skulk bite is once again looking like it could be changed. Has anyone complained about it OP or too weak lately? I don't think so. Its fine as it is and with the glancing bite system it actually feels right for the first time in a while. Please don't change it, unless you really want to frustrate players, especially the new ones.
Sal
I can't recall a post asking for a massive health buff to the Lerk.
Seems to me that it's the Fade that needs the Health/Armour increase right now (it doesn't have to as extreme as reverting to NS1), but the Lerk's <i>abilities</i> need to be better to pay for his fragility, which he could then keep as-is. Spore clouds could be wider or slightly more damaging to make him better mid-game and Umbra could be buffed in any way that made people actually get it. And, as someone else said, he needs to be quicker without Celerity so it's not so crucial to take.
The true madness here is the huge adjustment. Why increase health massively when you could have increased it slightly and have seen how that went?
You can be 1-shot without carapace, and even with carapace (I think?) if the shot is point blank, but then again it's very hard to land that shot on a surprising lerk coming from behind or when there's lots of action going on.
If you go head-on into 2+ marines alone, even with ARs as lerk, you're probably going to die, as you should :-) .
Spores from the start on lerks would be OP imo.
Yeah, but during those 200 builds Spores was incredibly weak. It was moved to a second hive ability, and then justifiably buffed, because Spikes was an unappealing second hive ability (seems like a minor upgrade compared to leap, bile, and blink).
If you move spores back to a first hive ability, then it's just going to get nerfed again and nobody will be happy.
Please, leave the Lerk alone and go try and balance something else.
Did you not consider that Jupiter is much MUCH farther away from the sun, thus its longer revolution time. It has nothing to do with its size. In fact Mercury, the closest planet to the sun, moves the fastest at ~107,000 mph, while Pluto, the SMALLEST yet furthest planet moves at only ~10,000 mph.
Anyway the original argument was that an Onos is huge and should move slower. False. The fact that it is bigger, plus the fact that in appearance it is very muscular, means it is covering larger strides with greater ease. Anything running on four legs generally runs faster than us bipeds.
And the nonsensical use of jetpacks indoors aside, would you want jetpackers to be able to easily outrun an Onos? That would lead to kiting by the JPer, with nothing the Onos can do; if he tries to run away, the JPer will chase him and easily keep up, and if the Onos tries to attack, the JP keeps its distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was thinking the same thing! Ha! It's like people who claim driving really fast burns less fuel in an hour than driving an hour at slow speeds... nerp.